Adapting your wing chun based on fight experience

[IRONMONK]

I've trained WT (4 yrs EWTO and 4 yrs Hong Kong WT) so I'm not a beginner. I haven't been training WT for a while mainly due to Instructors taking advantage and more interested in making money. I've tried various wing chun clubs and lineages and they don't seem to provide what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in sport fighting but I'm not afraid to add techniques and strategies from other combat sports to help me defend myself on the street.

I've had few situations when I had to defend myself on the street without getting hurt but found some limitations.

Footwork- the 100-0 footwork(front leg pulling back leg)limits you ability to move around effectively against an opponent who doesn't want to get hit. Change to a natural 50-50 footwork and pushing off back foot
Punching power-hit someone (much bigger than me) by stepping into him with my body and it just shocked him but never really done any damage. Add power to the punch with boxing mechanics(planting feet and body rotation)
Clinch work-Found myself in a clinch position with my both hands on my opponent neck but didn't know how to effectively finish him off. Look at thai boxing to get familiar with that situation.
Variety in punching: Add hooks and uppercuts and body shots because chain punching is limited.

Some of this I've realised before but In the past I thought it was a case of me needing to train harder to make the WT work. I will still be using the concepts of WT like centreline teory closing the gap, destroying balance etc

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

[wingchunIan]

I've trained WT (4 yrs EWTO and 4 yrs Hong Kong WT) so I'm not a beginner. I haven't been training WT for a while mainly due to Instructors taking advantage and more interested in making money. I've tried various wing chun clubs and lineages and they don't seem to provide what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in sport fighting but I'm not afraid to add techniques and strategies from other combat sports to help me defend myself on the street.

I've had few situations when I had to defend myself on the street without getting hurt but found some limitations.

Footwork- the 100-0 footwork(front leg pulling back leg)limits you ability to move around effectively against an opponent who doesn't want to get hit. Change to a natural 50-50 footwork and pushing off back foot
We train 100-0 (ish) but push off the back leg and never drag the foot so the only limit I've ever found is the naturalising from drilling to freeform but it comes with training.

Punching power-hit someone (much bigger than me) by stepping into him with my body and it just shocked him but never really done any damage. Add power to the punch with boxing mechanics(planting feet and body rotation)
maybe this is linked to the above point, in my experience power comes from driving off the floor either by turning or by stepping, but also the results are often as much about where you hit as how hard you hit.

Clinch work-Found myself in a clinch position with my both hands on my opponent neck but didn't know how to effectively finish him off. Look at thai boxing to get familiar with that situation.
very familiar with what you're describing but I tend not to end up with both hands on the neck and only normally tie up one leaving the other free for strikes (elbows at the range your reffering to) but also man gang sau into a shoulder or head butt. Also knees and kicks to legs are available depending upon stability.

Variety in punching: Add hooks and uppercuts and body shots because chain punching is limited.
agree chain punching is limited but there are plenty of other strikes in the system without having to add in hooks and uppercuts that don't necesarilly fit with the centre line theory.

Some of this I've realised before but In the past I thought it was a case of me needing to train harder to make the WT work. I will still be using the concepts of WT like centreline teory closing the gap, destroying balance etc

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

I've adapted my approach based on what I've experienced but i can't recall a technique not actually working although from training and pressure testing I've tended to keep things very simple on the few occassions that I've had to use it at all.

[duende]

Nice thread.

What confounds me is that people could actually think some of these "WC" techniques could ever work in the first place. I mean haven't they ever been in a fight?

This whole notion of 60/40 or what have you footwork. Low tan sau and leaving your face wide open. Or assuming you can change the laws of physics and not have to deal with real energy, or worry about stronger opponents.

My oh my... What are they smoking.

I did the yip man curriculum for many years. Nothing wrong with it. I believe YM actually knew what he was doing.

However his students, and grand students and the dogma they preach... That's an altogether different notion of reality.

I could go into naming techniques... But really. What's the point.

In a nutshell I think people just need to see beyond the techniques and dogma and find the underlying key and principles to the system. The logic is there... One can look at a smaller equation that is sound... and thereby figure out how to make sense out of the larger over-all method.

Just my .02

[grasshopper 2.0]

A couple things:
First off there's nothing wrong with adding styles to your own arsenal. I wouldn't consider myself or my teacher or school a "purist"

4 years in WT means nothing. Especially under the official organization, as you mentioned its all about the money. The curriculum itself can be quite drawn out so 4 years means very little.

Even though they teach 100/0 footwork, it is not meant to be applied that way. Only trained so that you can still function In that type of situation. Also it makes your 50/50 footwork even more powerful after having to train to throw powerful hits in such a weird position.

Your punching power isn't developed enough. Step and punch with proper structure and BOOM is pretty effective and pretty much all you got.

Its not really about training hard. Its also about how you're taught. I am fortunate enough to learn from someone brought up by EWTO back in its hay day before it was all about money and had serious fighters in the mix. You can really see the difference between the organization now and then and the quality of students are subpar. Especially that of the Hong Kong crew. And I can totally see how they would run into similar problems in a real street fight.

Its not about training harder only but giving you the right tools and setting as to how to apply your wing chun.


As j said before go ahead and adjust your wing chun as to how you see fit! At the end of the day that's all that matters. There is still some good wt guys out there that's all!

[GlennR]

I've trained WT (4 yrs EWTO and 4 yrs Hong Kong WT) so I'm not a beginner. I haven't been training WT for a while mainly due to Instructors taking advantage and more interested in making money. I've tried various wing chun clubs and lineages and they don't seem to provide what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in sport fighting but I'm not afraid to add techniques and strategies from other combat sports to help me defend myself on the street.

Thing is, you cant just "add" techniques and strategies from combat arts. You need to practise them (ie sparring) with the guys that use them to be effective with them. An MT or Boxing gym is a good start.


I've had few situations when I had to defend myself on the street without getting hurt but found some limitations.

Footwork- the 100-0 footwork(front leg pulling back leg)limits you ability to move around effectively against an opponent who doesn't want to get hit. Change to a natural 50-50 footwork and pushing off back foot

Ive done both (100/00 & 50/50) and im more of the mindset that the 100/0 should be used in transition rather than a fighting stance. It has its uses but standing there in it with a charging aggerssor will probably get you killed.


Punching power-hit someone (much bigger than me) by stepping into him with my body and it just shocked him but never really done any damage. Add power to the punch with boxing mechanics(planting feet and body rotation)

I dont think you can add the boxing mechanics to the pure WC punch. The structure and mechanics of the punch are very different and i personally feel you either have one or the other... not a hybrid. Having said that, the WC punch should be able to hit pretty hard on its own.


Clinch work-Found myself in a clinch position with my both hands on my opponent neck but didn't know how to effectively finish him off. Look at thai boxing to get familiar with that situation.

I assume you were thinking elbows and knees?


Variety in punching: Add hooks and uppercuts and body shots because chain punching is limited.

I agree


Some of this I've realised before but In the past I thought it was a case of me needing to train harder to make the WT work. I will still be using the concepts of WT like centreline teory closing the gap, destroying balance etc

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

Ive been doing MT 3 years now and found that the best way to utilise WC against it and boxing (i do that about 20% of the time) is by pressure.
Keep in their face, use your kicks as hands alone wont be enough, if they have good head moevement punch towards the upper chest/lower throat and elbows are really handy and ,IMO, one of WC's best tools.

But if you stand back and want to exchange with the 2 mentioned styles they'll kill you as they have more tools at their disposal.

WC to me is all about getting in quick, getting the job done, and getting out of there

[grasshopper 2.0]

When you got good wing chun, it helps make the other stuff better like throwing hooks, uppercuts etc.

That said hooks and uppercuts can all be part of chain attacks. Its not just chain punching that is at your disposal but of course many wt teachers won't go there.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've trained WT (4 yrs EWTO and 4 yrs Hong Kong WT) so I'm not a beginner. I haven't been training WT for a while mainly due to Instructors taking advantage and more interested in making money....

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

My background is probably similar to yours. I trained directly under LT back in the '80s, and was briefly exposed to Emin's EWTO influenced approach. I also trained Escrima with Rene Latosa. In the 90s I dropped out. Now I'm back doing WC and Escrima with other people who share a similar background. The Escrima, especially, has given me another approach to stance, power, and boxing techniques. At 56, I'm too old to be a fighter or competitor, but I feel the Escrima has added a lot of realism and practicality to my technique. It's always good to keep an open mind and test new ideas.

[trubblman]

I've trained WT (4 yrs EWTO and 4 yrs Hong Kong WT) so I'm not a beginner. I haven't been training WT for a while mainly due to Instructors taking advantage and more interested in making money. I've tried various wing chun clubs and lineages and they don't seem to provide what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in sport fighting but I'm not afraid to add techniques and strategies from other combat sports to help me defend myself on the street.

I've had few situations when I had to defend myself on the street without getting hurt but found some limitations.

Footwork- the 100-0 footwork(front leg pulling back leg)limits you ability to move around effectively against an opponent who doesn't want to get hit. Change to a natural 50-50 footwork and pushing off back foot
Punching power-hit someone (much bigger than me) by stepping into him with my body and it just shocked him but never really done any damage. Add power to the punch with boxing mechanics(planting feet and body rotation)
Clinch work-Found myself in a clinch position with my both hands on my opponent neck but didn't know how to effectively finish him off. Look at thai boxing to get familiar with that situation.
Variety in punching: Add hooks and uppercuts and body shots because chain punching is limited.

Some of this I've realised before but In the past I thought it was a case of me needing to train harder to make the WT work. I will still be using the concepts of WT like centreline teory closing the gap, destroying balance etc

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

What you are asserting is your opinion. My teacher does not teach the 50 - 50. He believes 50-50 is too slow. He uses a single weighted leg. He does not use boxers rotation. I dont want to get into a point for point refutation of why you think you should add boxers etc, stuff to VT. My teacher says VT as it is works. Why do I believe it works? He used to be a correctional officer in Baltimore for 15 years. He says he had to use it and it worked well for him. If you find that it does not work I feel that is your opinion but mine is that it does work. In addition, once you begin adding this, that and the next technique, pretty soon you dont have VT. You have something else. Call it Jeet Kune Do, Krav Maga, Eclectic Martial Arts, Thug Fu, Thug Jitsu whatever but you won't have VT.

[Buddha_Fist]

Your teacher should teach you the basics, explain in a simple and logical way the reasons for why things are done in a specific way. He should be able to demonstrate also in a free and random environment. It's your task to work hard to turn those basics into habits and attain a working understanding of these basics. Part of this is to do balance checks via sparring to further your understanding and send you back to the drawing board. No magic, just hard work.

[k gledhill]

Funny but my most simple reliable and often used actions in fights are the heavy bag striking drills I was taught using twisting boxer like turning stances, as Laap sao sideways facing. And stepping in with full force strikes as if to a heavy bag swinging to me seung ma .

If the fists of VT are like a 357 magnum, VT Kicks are the sawn-off shotgun of the system, to me anyway.

This attention to striking force focus is a hallmark to me, of good VT.

[Buddha_Fist]

This attention to striking force focus is a hallmark to me, of good VT.

Because the main idea is.... punch!

[k gledhill]

Because the main idea is.... punch!

And avoiding being punched :D Footwork and mobility, angling, are the keys to fighting with VT.

[Buddha_Fist]

And avoiding being punched :D Footwork and mobility, angling, are the keys to fighting with VT.

They are the support system to deliver the main idea. :)

[nasmedicine]

your teacher should teach you the basics, explain in a simple and logical way the reasons for why things are done in a specific way. He should be able to demonstrate also in a free and random environment. It's your task to work hard to turn those basics into habits and attain a working understanding of these basics. Part of this is to do balance checks via sparring to further your understanding and send you back to the drawing board. No magic, just hard work.

Q.F.E., well put

[imperialtaichi]

For me, punching is not the purpose, but one of the many tools to dismental the opponent. The same way, one would catch an animal and dissecting it.

I don't focus on techniques, I focus on result.

[WC1277]

Ultimately I think the single most important thing learned with good wing chun and applicable to a real situation are timing and distance. What you hit with is secondary, but hey, that's just me...

[Buddha_Fist]

Ultimately I think the single most important thing learned with good wing chun and applicable to a real situation are timing and distance. What you hit with is secondary, but hey, that's just me...

Oh snap, I forgot... you're right! You can always pull off a Bud Spencer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9jHnSNYMxU

A *****-slap here, a hammer-fist to the head there... :D

[couch]

Some of this I've realised before but In the past I thought it was a case of me needing to train harder to make the WT work. I will still be using the concepts of WT like centreline teory closing the gap, destroying balance etc

Have you guys adapted your WC based on fight experience and trial and error etc?
When a technique/strategy doesn't work do you discard it or do you to practise it more to make it work?

This is good stuff - not being afraid to add some seemingly different mechanics or seemingly different techniques into the mix.

I believe that most of the techs and mechanics that are present in fighting arts such as boxing are present in Chun. And that you can put those things through your already ingrained Chun-body and they'll come out your own.

I definitely use long-bridge things to close the gap in sparring. Overturned jabs, crosses and kicks.

If in close-range, I definitely use hooks and uppercuts when I'm confident that my opponent can't bring his hands back.

Weight is weight. Wherever my weight falls during a specific time is what it is.

So the short answer to your q's are:
1. Yes I have adapted MY chun to my exposure to sparring
2. When a technique doesn't work for me, I still keep trying from time to time because it might pop out and work - but due to our unique personalities and the way we apply what we learn, I go for what is MY bread-and-butter techniques moreso.

Keep up the great research,
CTK

[Yoshiyahu]

The Best way to adapt your WC is by fighting it.

Find people of different backgrounds to spar hard with!!!

Each time you spar work on different techniques and different principles to make your WC more efficient!