Bawang Quan in Cailifo/Choy Lee Fut?

[Marcelo-RJ]

I have some Choy Lee Fut training from Northern Shaolin GM Chan Kwok Wai's disciple, the late Sifu Marcello Teixeira, here in Rio. That hapenned as far back as 1990, and only for a few months.

Eventually I have started learning a very long form called "Bawan Quan" ( 霸王拳 - do not know the Cantonese pronounciation, sorry!), which is the first one taught within GM Chan Kwok Wai's school.

I have never heard of, nor seen, such a form, except for the quotation in http://www.ccak.org/en/articles/cailifo-pai, so I ask the brothers here whether this form is anyhow known outside of the lineage of GM Chan, who learned Hung Sing from Yan You Chin and Buk Sing from Ying Sheung Mo (see chart on the bottom of http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index.php?id=4&subid=11&ln=pt ).

Thanks a lot, in advance, for your attention,

Marcelo

[hskwarrior]

I've never heard of this form as its not in Fut San Hung Sing Kwoons material. perhaps its a chan fam form or even Chan Kwok Wai created it.

all i've found so far is shaw brother movies and cartoons.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XslNHCfTBTc

[Faruq]

So then Bawang apparently means despot king, not purple newborn calf! What cruel deception on the part of Shifu Bawang!

[hskwarrior]

Bawang the Overseer................of what is another issue all by itself. :eek:

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Sifu Frank, for the informantion regarding the Futsan Hung Sing.
I have asked Sifu Wong Yen Zem from Xing Hui, and he told me he has never heard about that form either.
So, the form (a) was created by Chan Kwok Wai; or (b) was created by one of Chan Kwok Wai's teachers (Yan You Chin and Ying Sheung Mo) and subsequently taught to CKW.
I have tried to communicate with Master CKW but his email is not working. I'll let you know if I happen to find out something.

Marcelo

[hskwarrior]

cool. good luck with that bro

[Marcelo-RJ]

Ok, I have just heard from the representative of CKW in a Southern state of my Country that Chan Kwok Wai has learnt that form from Zhen Yaochao (Yan You Chin), who's in this picture (left) with his father Zhen Yanchu (right): http://www.shaolindonorte.com.br/imagens/paginas/zhen_yaochao_e_yanchu_clf.jpg
Any info on those gentlemen?

M.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Chan Kwok Wai's Hung Sing Lineage:

6608

[Marcelo-RJ]

And these are the forms that are taught by Chan Kwok Wai:

6609

Any info will be welcome!

[Lucas]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072290/

[CLFNole]

My kung fu brother who was a student of Chan Kwok Wai many years ago mentioned that form before and said he was told it was from buk sing. If i am not mistaken it has the double single poon kiu block followed by a sow choy, which can be seen in buk sing sets. Not sure if it is unique to buk sing or not though.

Peace

[CLFNole]

My kung fu brother who was a student of Chan Kwok Wai many years ago mentioned that form before and said he was told it was from buk sing. If i am not mistaken it has the double single poon kiu block followed by a sow choy, which can be seen in buk sing sets. Not sure if it is unique to buk sing or not though.

Peace

[Eric Olson]

Funny to see the names of the forms written in Mandarin:

Shizi Kouda Quan= Saap Ji Kau Da Kyuhn

EO

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, CLF Nole, for the information above.
Now I'm truly confused (not your intention, I know), for the teacher in the South of Brazil told me it was a Hung Sing form that CKW learned from Yan You Chin. :confused:
Anyway, I used to think there were only three forms in Buk Sing CLF.
Maybe I'll film a part of the form and send it to youtube next weekend.

M.

[hskwarrior]

Anyway, I used to think there were only three forms in Buk Sing CLF.
Maybe I'll film a part of the form and send it to youtube next weekend.

For the gung fu that was passed down by Jeung Yim buk sing has our Sup Ji, Ping Kuen and Kau da.

the Mui Fah Form is also not from Jeung Yim.

[hskwarrior]

Maybe I'll film a part of the form and send it to youtube next weekend.


that will help. as the Opening of the form will tell you if its Chan Fam, Hung Sing or Buk Sing.


广东自古已有武术流传，至明代更有完整的拳械套路，据《小知录》记载："使拳之家，曰赵家拳、南拳、西拳、温家钩挂拳、张飞神拳、霸王拳、猴拳、童子拜观音拳；又有眠张短打破法、 九内红大下等破法、三十六拿法、三十六解法、七十二跌法、七十二解法。"但至清代，传统的拳种已逐渐式微，流行的主要拳种为洪、刘、蔡、李、莫拳及清道光、咸丰年间出现的蔡李佛拳 、咏春拳。

according to the above it looks like Bawang Quan was a style.
here's a book link that mentions Bawang Quan (http://books.google.com/books?id=KiNEB0H6S0EC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=Bawang+Quan&source=bl&ots=aiYGn9xz14&sig=r898N6LQ5UYWxxRFHyBsDQPYzl8&hl=en&ei=BexvTqvSLdDXiAKr3J2NBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Bawang%20Quan&f=false) as Rulers Fist:

I found a form not a CLF form but a form with that name:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJfXAoisWM

[sunwukon]

hi friends!

im the "brazilian teacher from a southern state" ;)

maybe Horacio DiRenzo could help us here. anyone know his nick in this forum?

[sunwukon]

this site seems to have the chinese characters:

http://www.ccak.cz/en/articles/cailifo-pai

[Marcelo-RJ]

I have attached a picture with the Chinese characteres above.

Sifu Frank, the opening is not Chan Fam CLF for sure. It starts with a double palm upwards, slight to the right, then the palms go down and a high arm block with the hands in tiger claw shape comes up, followed by a low block with the same arm; then comes a high block with the left arm, that is crossed by the right arm as if breaking the opponent's arm, everything with the hands in claw. Only then one turns to the right and makes the first double stab (front and behind).

I hope I can post the opening + some loose parts of the form on youtube next weekend.

Meanwhile, I hope brother Di Renzo comes forward and helps us with this question.

All the best!

[CLFNole]

It could be a form that was made by a buk sing sifu. The name is not a common one so maybe some sifu created it. Nothing wrong with that if that is the case as long as the form makes sense. Besides thats how CLF has so many forms...they all weren't created by Chan Heung (a bit crazy to believe that actually).

[hskwarrior]

Sifu Frank, the opening is not Chan Fam CLF for sure. It starts with a double palm upwards, slight to the right, then the palms go down and a high arm block with the hands in tiger claw shape comes up,


ahhhhh the Fu Jow in the opening says Buk Sing to me. cool.

[CLFNole]

My wife said the chinese characters translate to Ba Wong Kuen and it roughly means the the "top guy" or "tough guy" also could mean like a "dai lo" or big boss (gangsta - hak sei woi type).

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have some Choy Lee Fut training from Northern Shaolin GM Chan Kwok Wai's disciple, the late Sifu Marcello Teixeira, here in Rio. That hapenned as far back as 1990, and only for a few months.

Eventually I have started learning a very long form called "Bawan Quan" ( 霸王拳 - do not know the Cantonese pronounciation, sorry!), which is the first one taught within GM Chan Kwok Wai's school.

I have never heard of, nor seen, such a form, except for the quotation in http://www.ccak.org/en/articles/cailifo-pai, so I ask the brothers here whether this form is anyhow known outside of the lineage of GM Chan, who learned Hung Sing from Yan You Chin and Buk Sing from Ying Sheung Mo (see chart on the bottom of http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index.php?id=4&subid=11&ln=pt ).

Thanks a lot, in advance, for your attention,

Marcelo

Philippine Tagalog has Bawang as meaning crazy.

[sunwukon]

i believe the name bawang, in this case is a homage to a chinese "hero". the same as in this movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rYUDahgHaU

[Marcelo-RJ]

Brothers:

Does anyone know how would "Bawang" be pronounced in Cantonese?

Sifu Frank,

Yes, I tend to think it's Buk Sing-related, since I do not recognize the opening as Hung Sing or Chan Fam. However, the opening is not the same as in this Buk Sing video either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-l-deL6TQw

CLFNole,

I agree with you: many forms must have been / be created by someone other than Chan Heung, Jeung Hung Sing and even Tam Sam. My old Hung Gar teacher, Li Hon Ki, created two excellent forms to be taught as "Hoi Sao" before the Tiger Taming set. Now that he's into Lam fam, those forms were put aside and the new students lack something of the good old times body expression when they perform the first two or three forms.

So, it would be OK even if Chan Kwok Wai created the Bawang Quan form. I just wanted to know where it came from, now that I moved back from Wing Chun to Choy Lee Fut.

Errr... Cantose for "Bawang", please?

Thanks, once again!

[Da Jai]

Cantonese for Bawang is just Ba Wong.

[CLFNole]

Yes as I mentioned earlier it is "Ba Wong" two words and two characters.

[sunwukon]

Brothers:
However, the opening is not the same as in this Buk Sing video either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-l-deL6TQw



but is very close, dont you think?


i've found some bits, but its very poorly executed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK1e6tSCaAw

[bawang]

i would like to thank the hung sing for naming a form after me

[CLFNole]

but is very close, dont you think?


i've found some bits, but its very poorly executed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK1e6tSCaAw

Has more of a buk sing look to it (although buk sing has a different feel and power compared to that performer) but probably a created form combining elements from both branches.

[TenTigers]

i would like to thank the hung sing for naming a form after me

I'd be curious to see this form. I'm guessing it's similar to that Chinese Tiger wrestling guy, or the people screaming with the nunchakus...:D


as a side note, a bawang usually refers to a tyrant, and is not a complimentary term.

[hskwarrior]

History has shown many times over....the BAWANG always gets overthrown. LOL

Marcelo,

I think you have everyone's interest now. but below is the opening moves of all three branches.....are you saying Bawang Kuen opening moves DO NOT look like the ones below?

the video link of buk sing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-l-deL6TQw)

This is our Hung Sing opening moves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuFwlduAQnI)

Typical Chan family opening moves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FZye7pBVK8&feature=related)

[bawang]

in kung fu bawang means brute strength, a bully.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hey, sunwokon, that's the form I was talking about in the Shaolin do Norte community at Orkut!

Now, are you sure that's the one Sifu Chan Kwok wai calls "Bawang Quan"?
I ask this because I have juste remembered that I used to see Alex Takahashi de Moura teaching it as "Tigre" to his Northern Shaolin students in Rio (just like the title of that video). Besides, that was not the first form that Sifu Marcello Teixeira - on whom be Peace - used to teach to his Choy Lee Fut students.
See, both Alex Takahashi and Marcelo Teixeira were Chan Kwok Wai's representatives in Rio, the former for Bei Shaolin, the last one for Cailifo.
So wouldn't that form on youtube be the "Hu Xing Quan / Forma de Tigre" referred to in CKW's CLF curriculum (see page 1 of this thread)?

As to the opening, Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing share some similarities, and CKW's does not fit any of those others completely.

[CLFNole]

Hey, sunwokon, that's the form I was talking about in the Shaolin do Norte community at Orkut!

Now, are you sure that's the one Sifu Chan Kwok wai calls "Bawang Quan"?
I ask this because I have juste remembered that I used to see Alex Takahashi de Moura teaching it as "Tigre" to his Northern Shaolin students in Rio (just like the title of that video). Besides, that was not the first form that Sifu Marcello Teixeira - on whom be Peace - used to teach to his Choy Lee Fut students.
See, both Alex Takahashi and Marcelo Teixeira were Chan Kwok Wai's representatives in Rio, the former for Bei Shaolin, the last one for Cailifo.
So wouldn't that form on youtube be the "Hu Xing Quan / Forma de Tigre" referred to in CKW's CLF curriculum (see page 1 of this thread)?

As to the opening, Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing share some similarities, and CKW's does not fit any of those others completely.

It is not uncommon for branches to have openings that are slightly different. Ours are slightly different from others but you can tell the basis is the same. Don't know if that was fu ying kuen but CLF has a lot of fu jow (tiger claw) in all forms so who knows. It is definately not Northern Shaolin though.

[sunwukon]

Hey, sunwokon, that's the form I was talking about in the Shaolin do Norte community at Orkut!

Now, are you sure that's the one Sifu Chan Kwok wai calls "Bawang Quan"?
I ask this because I have juste remembered that I used to see Alex Takahashi de Moura teaching it as "Tigre" to his Northern Shaolin students in Rio (just like the title of that video). Besides, that was not the first form that Sifu Marcello Teixeira - on whom be Peace - used to teach to his Choy Lee Fut students.
See, both Alex Takahashi and Marcelo Teixeira were Chan Kwok Wai's representatives in Rio, the former for Bei Shaolin, the last one for Cailifo.
So wouldn't that form on youtube be the "Hu Xing Quan / Forma de Tigre" referred to in CKW's CLF curriculum (see page 1 of this thread)?

As to the opening, Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing share some similarities, and CKW's does not fit any of those others completely.



marcelo, its a commom mistake here in brazil to call CLF as "Tigre", mainly because of fu jow movment.

i will try email sifu horacio the link for this topic

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thanks, brother sunwukon.

Now it'd be interesting to know if that form on the video is Sifu CKW's Hu Xing Quan/Fu Ying Kuen or Ba Wang Quan/ Ba Wong Kuen.
Later we try to figure out where does it all come from.

Sifu Frank, thank you for your helping hand. I'll check with a Northern Shaolin teacher who's a friend of mine if I'm missing any piece of the opening and will let you know if it's similar to Buk Sing or Hung Sing. Not even a chance to be Chan Family.

Since those forms have been taught in Brazil for many years and still will be, and since none has recognized the piece that was given out by sunwukon, maybe Sifu CKW has a peculiar, less known, modality of CLF. Not saying he created it, but would not condem him if he did.

Hope brother Di Renzo appears and gives us some light.

[hskwarrior]

Since those forms have been taught in Brazil for many years and still will be, and since none has recognized the piece that was given out by sunwukon, maybe Sifu CKW has a peculiar, less known, modality of CLF. Not saying he created it, but would not condem him if he did.


there's nothing wrong with someone creating a form as long its not wrongly claimed to be a form created by the founder or someone else. I have created a form or two myself to be honest.

so marcelo, based on your knowledge, how close was the Bawang Kuen to that of the one sunwukon posted?

[sunwukon]

hskwarrior, i think thats the problem: i believe that the form i posted is the same marcelo knows, but the thing is he want to know the name.

i believe its bawang. thats how i learned it, but i cant "write in stone"

[jmd161]

but is very close, dont you think?


i've found some bits, but its very poorly executed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK1e6tSCaAw


I trained at a school that taught this same form... the form name was in fact Ba Wong Kuen. We were always told it was a Choy Lay Fut form but, I could never find a CLF stylist that had ever heard of it...

The lineage was through Chan Kwok Wei...

[kai men]

Hi everybody! I see you ve been very busy discussing this subject!
GM Chan Kowk Wai hasn't invented anything. He has been taught this version of FUTSAN HUNG SING CHOY LI FAT, by his teacher. His teacher didn't have any other student continuing the way so we are nowadays the only ones who train these TEN forms of Choy Li Fat PLUS ONE FORM FROM BAK SING: SAP SHI KAU TA KUIN.

The first form si calles Ba Won Kuin meaning something like "TOUGH PERSON" (in brazil you would say "Malandro" ;-)
although the secuenses are different, the style is pretty similar to the present day Fatsan CLF.
About inventing forms, nothing wrong with this. King Muy Hung Sing CLF had originally THREE forms. 160 years later it has 100.

All CLF schools are the same family! the core movements are the same, kua choy, sou choy, chap shoy, etc.

The CLF taught by Chan Kowk Wai IS NOT BAK SING! Bak Sing comes from our style.
Regards!
horacio

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Sifu Di Renzo, for your clarification on Sifu Chan Kwok Wai not being the one who created that form.

I have a couple of questions for you, but, please, go free to ignore them if you feel I'm being impertinent.

a) is this the final part of Ba Wang Quan or is it Sifu Chan Kwok Wai's Hu Xing (Tiger) set? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK1e6tSCaAw

b) is there any record in Sifu CKW's school regarding the creator of the Ba Wang set? It seems at least Sifu Frank of SF Hung Sing Kwoon does not recognize that form, so maybe it was a special set of the Yim You Chin's family?

I have learned that form 21 years ago here in Rio de Janeiro, and now that I'm back to CLF I'd like to know a little bit more about it if you don't mind speaking about the contents of Sifu CKW's style.

Fraternally,

Marcelo

[hskwarrior]

allow me to clarify, yes, there are sections in that form that would make me ask "hey is that a hung sing form?" I will say that at least as far as i know how to identify a Hung Sing form i will say that video had some things and didn't have some things i'd recognize.

either way, CKW people are our people....one love.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/photos-ak-snc1/v4683/115/53/697132731/n697132731_1865238_3508593.jpg

[extrajoseph]

According to this Chinese blog article on the history of Kung Fu in Brazil:

http://blog.titan24.com/xiaozhong/704040.htm

Chan Kwok-Wai Sifu was born in 1936 and he learned CLF from 陈松威（Chan Cheok Sing）in Toishan 台山, where he was born, from the age 4 - 14, then he went to Hong Kong in 1949 and learned Lohan Kuen and Northern Shaolin (and a few other styles like Yang Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua) before he migrated to Brazil in 1960 and was the first to promote Kung Fu there. So altogether Chan Sifu had 10 years of CLF training when he was a kid, if the interview with the Vice-President of the Brazilian Kung Fu Association (巴西武术总会副会长高建滔) is correct.

陈国伟：中国功夫在巴西传播先驱

提起中国功夫在巴西，就不能不提陈国伟（Chan Kowk Wai）这个名字。陈师是巴西武术界公认的中国功夫在巴西传播的先驱者。从1960年陈师到巴西教拳，到2 010年正好是50载。50载，陈师桃李满巴西。2008年，圣保罗市议会还向陈师颁发了圣保罗荣誉市民称 号。

陈师1936年出生于广东台山，4岁开始习武，习武之早不多见。陈师习武并非家传，最开始时他是“偷艺”。 过去的习武之人很有讲究，不正式拜师者不传，女孩子不传，尤其忌讳别人偷看偷学，何况4岁的陈师一边偷看一 边还投入地比划了起来。别人偷艺，轻者被赶走打跑，重者还要受惩罚，要向教拳的师傅道歉。但陈师不但没受责 骂，没被赶走，还被收了徒弟。原因何在？陈国伟实在太有天赋了，在一边模仿得惟妙惟肖，陈松威 （Chan Cheok Sing）师傅惜才，不仅没有责备他，还收下了他这个小徒弟。

就这样，从4岁一直到14岁，十年功夫，陈国伟一直跟着陈松威学习蔡李佛拳（Choy Lee Fut）。1949年，大陆解放前夕，陈国伟随家人迁居香港，在那里他师从马剑风师傅（Ma Kim Fong）学习罗汉拳。不久，北派少林拳大师严尚武也来至香港，在陈国伟家中开馆授徒，陈国伟又开始在严师 门下学习北派少林拳，陈老师也是严尚武师傅在香港的首徒。陈国伟老师天分极高，练拳又刻苦，再加南北融会贯 通，博采众长，功夫日益精进。除了少林拳法和蔡李佛拳，陈国伟师傅还学习了气功、杨氏太极拳、八卦掌、形意 拳、六合拳等中华武术拳种。

[sunwukon]

According to this Chinese blog article on the history of Kung Fu in Brazil:

http://blog.titan24.com/xiaozhong/704040.htm

Chan Kwok-Wai Sifu was born in 1936 and he learned CLF from 陈松威（Chan Cheok Sing）in Toishan 台山, where he was born, from the age 4 - 14, then he went to Hong Kong in 1949 and learned Lohan Kuen and Northern Shaolin (and a few other styles like Yang Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua) before he migrated to Brazil in 1960 and was the first to promote Kung Fu there. So altogether Chan Sifu had 10 years of CLF training when he was a kid, if the interview with the Vice-President of the Brazilian Kung Fu Association (巴西武术总会副会长高建滔) is correct.

陈国伟：中国功夫在巴西传播先驱

提起中国功夫在巴西，就不能不提陈国伟（Chan Kowk Wai）这个名字。陈师是巴西武术界公认的中国功夫在巴西传播的先驱者。从1960年陈师到巴西教拳，到2 010年正好是50载。50载，陈师桃李满巴西。2008年，圣保罗市议会还向陈师颁发了圣保罗荣誉市民称 号。

陈师1936年出生于广东台山，4岁开始习武，习武之早不多见。陈师习武并非家传，最开始时他是“偷艺”。 过去的习武之人很有讲究，不正式拜师者不传，女孩子不传，尤其忌讳别人偷看偷学，何况4岁的陈师一边偷看一 边还投入地比划了起来。别人偷艺，轻者被赶走打跑，重者还要受惩罚，要向教拳的师傅道歉。但陈师不但没受责 骂，没被赶走，还被收了徒弟。原因何在？陈国伟实在太有天赋了，在一边模仿得惟妙惟肖，陈松威 （Chan Cheok Sing）师傅惜才，不仅没有责备他，还收下了他这个小徒弟。

就这样，从4岁一直到14岁，十年功夫，陈国伟一直跟着陈松威学习蔡李佛拳（Choy Lee Fut）。1949年，大陆解放前夕，陈国伟随家人迁居香港，在那里他师从马剑风师傅（Ma Kim Fong）学习罗汉拳。不久，北派少林拳大师严尚武也来至香港，在陈国伟家中开馆授徒，陈国伟又开始在严师 门下学习北派少林拳，陈老师也是严尚武师傅在香港的首徒。陈国伟老师天分极高，练拳又刻苦，再加南北融会贯 通，博采众长，功夫日益精进。除了少林拳法和蔡李佛拳，陈国伟师傅还学习了气功、杨氏太极拳、八卦掌、形意 拳、六合拳等中华武术拳种。


yes, but master CKW had 2 CLF teachers: one when he as a kid (4 to 14 yo) and the second many years later (yim you chin)

[extrajoseph]

Hi sunwukon,

In that case, Yim You-Chin would be the same as Zhen Yao-Chao 甄耀超 mentioned by Marcelo in post #8

From the same thread, it would seem to give an impression that Sifu CKW's lineage came down through Yan Yao-Ting 顏耀庭.

Yan Yao-Ting 顏耀庭 > Zhen Yan-Chu 甄炎初 > Zhen Yao-Chao 甄耀超 > CKW, that would mean it leads to Chan Koon-Pak, because Yan Yao-Ting was one of his students.

As far as I know, Chan Koon-Pak and Yan Yao-Ting's line don't have this Ba-Wong-Kuen form and if Sifu CKW didn't make it up, then it would be by one of the two Zhen Sifu mentioned.

XJ

[Ben Gash]

Hi everybody! I see you ve been very busy discussing this subject!
GM Chan Kowk Wai hasn't invented anything. He has been taught this version of FUTSAN HUNG SING CHOY LI FAT, by his teacher. His teacher didn't have any other student continuing the way so we are nowadays the only ones who train these TEN forms of Choy Li Fat PLUS ONE FORM FROM BAK SING: SAP SHI KAU TA KUIN.

The first form si calles Ba Won Kuin meaning something like "TOUGH PERSON" (in brazil you would say "Malandro" ;-)
although the secuenses are different, the style is pretty similar to the present day Fatsan CLF.
About inventing forms, nothing wrong with this. King Muy Hung Sing CLF had originally THREE forms. 160 years later it has 100.

All CLF schools are the same family! the core movements are the same, kua choy, sou choy, chap shoy, etc.

The CLF taught by Chan Kowk Wai IS NOT BAK SING! Bak Sing comes from our style.
Regards!
horacio
Really? Because the form in the video clip looked like straight up Chan Koon Pak line King Mui (except for the double poon kius), and that forms list contains several forms which are not normally associated with the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon, but are with Chan Koon Pak and Chan On Pak's descendents.

[hskwarrior]

Out of 11 forms in that list Fut San shares only Four sets of the same name. (Ping Kuen,Sup Ji, Sup Ji Kau Da, and Fut Jeung). However, the name is the only thing shared as chan fam version is not the same as the Fut San version.

[CLFNole]

That and sup gee kow dah kuen is not from buk sing.

[hskwarrior]

That and sup gee kow dah kuen is not from buk sing.

Unless they developed their own version of it of course.

[CLFNole]

That is possible but generally they all speak of ping kuen, sup gee kuen and kow dah kuen as their hand sets as we both know.

[hskwarrior]

That is possible but generally they all speak of ping kuen, sup gee kuen and kow dah kuen as their hand sets as we both know.

Well according to our branch the three you mentioned was derived from one large form. but i will admit this, all three....sup ji,kau da, and Ping Kuen all possess the same exact sections. perhaps this was why fut san created a sup ji kau da kuen.

[Ben Gash]

The Bak Sing I learned had the forms Yat Moon Kuen, Gay Boon Kuen, Sup Ji kuen, Lien Wan Kuen, Sup Ji Jin Kuen and Lien Wan Jin Kuen.

[CLFNole]

Not saying buk sing doesn't have more forms now and who knows names might change or forms could have different names. I have heard lien wan mentioned a bit in buk sing as they are well-known for their lien wan chop choy.

Gay Boon Kuen - Fundamental Fist (likely created by the sifu as a beginner/introductory form)

Yat Moon Kuen - translates to 1st form or basic form and is also a likely creation for ones school for beginning students

[Mano Mano]

I asked my CLF sifu about the bawang/bo wong form as he has connection’s with other CLF sifu’s from the other CLF branches in Hong Kong & China. He said he has never heard of a CLF form with that name.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Seems there's something out of place in CKW's Hung Sing lineage chart.
This is how the Hung Sing line is recorded in his official website ( http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index.php?id=4&subid=11&ln=pt ):

Chan Heung
|
Chang Hung Sing (Jeung Yim)
|
Chan Kwan Pak
|
Chan On Pak
|
HUNG SING BRANCH
|
Gan Yu Ten
|
Yan Yin HU
|
Yan You Chin
|
Chan Kwok Wai

:confused:

Although Sifu Di Renzo states CKW's is Futsan Hung Sing CLF, and although CKW hilself says he started learning in Futsan, the lineage chart above points to Chan On Pak as being the teacher of Gan Yu Ten, and that's the point where his "Hung Sing" branch starts.

:confused:

Besides, it reads in http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index.php?id=3&subid=10&ln=en that his CLF teacher was Chan Cheok Sing, not Yan You Chin.

:confused:

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that CKW holds a hybrid lineage (see that Jeoung Yim comes before Chan Heung's sons in his lineage chart). That's why the form we're researching about is not found in Chan Fam nor in Hung Sing mainstreams.

:confused:

[hskwarrior]

shouldn't On Pak be before Koon Pak? just askin'

[CLFNole]

They really should be the same generation. But On Bak would be Koon Bak's sihing.

[kai men]

fist...Chan Cheok Sing is NOT who taught Chan Kowk Wai this branch of CLF. He was his first teacher, in china, and he learnt CLF with him being a little child. Next, in HONG KONG he learnt with Yan Su Chin, his Futsan Hung Sing CLF teacher. Yan wasnt a proffesional teacher he taught only four students, the only one who decided to teach was Chan Kowk Wai. So...any change, of any kind, should be credited to Chan Kowk Wai's teacher or maybe they were a family branch...anyhow, that I dont know...sorry.
The only Bak Sing form we teach is Sap Chi Kau Ta...that was learnt by Yim Sheung Mo training with Tam Sam in Guangzhow.
All the other forms are taught exactly according to the way my sifu learnt them. That is all I can say.
Regards!!!
horacio

[Marcelo-RJ]

Gracias, Horacio, por tu ayuda!

The problem here is that Sifu CKW's lineage chart links his CLF to the Chan brothers (through the Yan family and Gan Yu Ten), not to Jeung Yim - thus to King Mui's, not to Futsan's Hung Sing (different characters, different meanings, different flavours).

I tend to believe that the Yan family should have a peculiar style, for you mention the Futsan line and the chart report to King Mui's.

Plus, the Ba Wong Quan form (btw, is that the name of the form that girl is performing, which happens to be the same one that I have learned?), which does not belong to Chan Fam nor to Hung Sing, indicates that we're speaking of something different and almost hidden, which survives thanks to the efforts of people like Sifu CKW and yourself.

Un abrazo!

[kai men]

Hi Marcelo! unfortunately I never paid attention to the lineage chart...will make my own investigation. GM Chan is coming to Buenos Aires Sept 30 so I will ask him to clarify this subject .
Anyway YES the form in the video of the girl is Pawon Kuin.
I have sent students to FATSAN and they have been training with the Fatsan Hung Sing CLF people...none of them said anything wrong about our CLF nor our lineage, strange. Even my students did performances on the 150 aniversary of the style in Fatsan, GM CHan has the videos.
but as I haven't done my duties...I have not cheched the lineage.
Un abrazo!!!
Horacio

[bawang]

i think its funny how clf steals names from other styles in their forms.

[hskwarrior]

i think its funny how clf steals names from other styles in their forms.

i think its funny how YOU stole the name of a supposed choy lee fut form!