Where are all the Complete Monkey Style systems?

[ginosifu]

Thru out kung fu history we hear of many Monkey boxing performances, but very few complete Monkey boxing systems.

I do not wish to discuss TSPK in this thread.

Basically I want to discuss the different Monkey boxing systems and why they are very few modern ones. We hear of many kung fu systems or orginizations that teach 1 or 2 Monkey forms but not a whole system. Even Bak Sil Lum ( Gu Ru Zhang lineage) has several Monkey forms in it.

I myself catorgorize Monkey into 3 divisions:

Opera Monkey - Strickly for performance. Used in stage performances and shows. Very little martial value.

Wushu Monkey - Competition or performace style. Very acrobatic and dynamic. More martial in nature but many of it's partricipants are only interested in tournament performance.

Pure Fighting Monkey - Tactics of the Monkey are used and related to human fighting situations. More of a traditional fighting style. This is what I am only interested in discussing here.

Also, in the Mantis system there is mention of Monkey footwork brought into the system by Wang Lang. I aslo heard this was more of an Ape / Gorilla style and not the smaller Monkey style? So what system was it? Does it still exist?

So where did all these Monkey systems go? Or were they only techniques in many systems? Why don't we see more pure Monkeys around today?

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Here is a brief history of Monkey style in general:

From the beginning of time, man has tried to copy the survival techniques of animals. Early man sought to mimic the movements of various animals, increasing the chance that their species would endure. As man developed, self defense and fighting skills were required to stay alive. In China, animal styles of self defense evolved over time.

Seeing how certain animals protected themselves, intrigued kung fu masters. The Tiger, Bear, Eagle etc., all of these animals have different techniques of protecting themselves. Chinese masters noticed monkeys to be shy and timid if left alone. However, monkeys were found to be savage once angered.

The first mention of "Monkey style" kung fu was in the Han dynasty (206 B.C. - 220 A.D.). During that time a martial artist named Tan, Chang-qing gave a demonstration of a monkey style while under the influence of alcohol. Also during this period a silk painting was found entitled "a bathing monkey calls", with pictures depicting a monkey style. Another type of monkey form was found in the period. This was created by a physician named Hua Ta. He healed the sick and the weak with breathing exercises and physical movements he called the 5 animal frolics. These 5 animals were the Tiger, Bear, Crane, Deer and the Monkey.

In the Song dynasty (960 A.D. - 1279 A.D.), Yan Ching added monkey techniques to his Mi Zhong Yi or Lost path style. The Great Emperor Tai Tsu created the Long Fist style (Northern Shaolin), and a monkey style. During the Yuan dynasty (1260 - 1380), Shaolin monk Bai, Yi-feng combined monkey style with 4 other arts to form what is still known today as Ng Chor Kuen or 5 Ancestors Fist.

In the Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644), Chinese army general Chi, Ji-guang mentioned monkey as contemporary style in his "New Book of Discipline". Another martial artist, Wang, Shi-xing wrote in his book "Journey to Song Mountain" : When I descended the mountain and returned to my lodge, the priests performed various martial arts to entertain me. Among them was a monkey style exponent who leaped and turned as though he was a real monkey. In 1564 Governor Zheng, Ruo-zengs wrote a whole chapter on the "The 36 Tactics of the Monkey style" in his book "Posting as Governor South of the Yangtze River.

During the evolution of the monkey style, many other kung fu systems incorporated monkey techniques into their style. In the early 1700's Shaolin master Wang Lang added the agile footwork of the monkey to create his Praying Mantis style. Most all Shaolin systems have at least one monkey form. Tai Chi Chuan has monkey movements named "Step back and repulse the monkey" and "White ape presents the fruit".

They say the Mi Zhong Yi or Lost track style has Monkey in it. What Monkey style was it? Or were they just some Monkey techniques?

Tai Tsu created a Monkey or just practiced a Monkey style? Was it a whole system or just a form?

The 5 Ancestors Fist has Monkey in but again, is it just a form?, just some techniques? or a whole Monkey system?

What are these 36 tactics of Monkey that Governor Zheng, Ruo-zeng wrote about? Does anyone know them?

What ape style did Wang Lang add to his Mantis Fist?

ginosifu

[mantid1]

I think the animal names, styles, are part of the culture like the old Chinese "legends" and storys. Not really meant to be believed as such. Maybe they match up human characteristics with some animal they like or has historical significance and they go with it.

Think about it...there are many "pure" dragon styles but I cant begin to tell you how the last dragon I saw may fight.

Pure tiger....such a huge beast with masive claws and teeth.....Not sure if a human could pull off a pure tiger style.

Crane....well that is a stretch for you.

Snake, well, without venom and only being able to wrap around the opponent...Im not sure that would be such a great "pure" style.

Praying Mantis, chewing someones head off is an option but....

Monkey would be the closest thing to what a human would do. But, other than their strenth I havnt seen them do many refined techniques on each other.

You have a very valid question.

I think people have been making systems up for thousands of years and it continues today. It would be hard to have "pure" anything.

Maybe it just sounds a little cooler for them to say I teach "TIGER" style than I teach "Leroy Jenkins" style.

Not meant to be a negative post at all and as I said before it is a legit question.

[ginosifu]

I think the animal names, styles, are part of the culture like the old Chinese "legends" and storys. Not really meant to be believed as such. Maybe they match up human characteristics with some animal they like or has historical significance and they go with it.

Think about it...there are many "pure" dragon styles but I cant begin to tell you how the last dragon I saw may fight.

Pure tiger....such a huge beast with masive claws and teeth.....Not sure if a human could pull off a pure tiger style.

Crane....well that is a stretch for you.

Snake, well, without venom and only being able to wrap around the opponent...Im not sure that would be such a great "pure" style.

Praying Mantis, chewing someones head off is an option but....

Monkey would be the closest thing to what a human would do. But, other than their strenth I havnt seen them do many refined techniques on each other.

You have a very valid question.

I think people have been making systems up for thousands of years and it continues today. It would be hard to have "pure" anything.

Maybe it just sounds a little cooler for them to say I teach "TIGER" style than I teach "Leroy Jenkins" style.

Not meant to be a negative post at all and as I said before it is a legit question.

Hak Fu Mun or Black Tiger is supposedly a "Pure" Tiger style. The same with The White Crane system. You can almost even say that the Ying Jow or Eagle Claw system is an all Eagle mimic style. There are many other "Pure" animal mimic styles that use only tactics that resemble their perspective animal.

So why has Monkey fallen to just Forms or Techniques within other systems?

ginosifu

[mantid1]

maybe the Monkey isnt as "special" or "revered" by the Chinese as an Eagle or Tiger would be so they didnt name a style after it just a few techniques?

You know, I am glad you aksed this question. The more I think about it seems to be fairly obvious that the names may be more culturally signifiant than I thought and arnt really meant to mimic the animals.

If we wanted to find the best way for a human to fight efficiently it would be much better to put together a "human" style. Right

Very though provoking question!

[kristcaldwell]

i would hope that anyone familiar with such things as the story "journey to the west" is capable of acknowledging the significance of monkeys in chinese culture (as compared to other animals)...and that CMA systems are just as (if not more) apt to honor monkeys (and the monkey king) with references throughout their techniques.

houquan is something of a dichotomy; it is at once revered by traditional practitioners, and yet it is (as stated by gino) a difficult system to find.

it has always been my understanding that despite its reputation as a strong self-defense system amongst CMA'ists, it just never really caught or became widely popular. mostly due to the fact that it requires greater flexibility than the average practitioner is able to develop, as well as extensive agility and tumbling abilities. additionally, one must acknowledge that a system that relies on tumbling to the extent that houquan does would be more geographically limited.

as far as i'm concerned, it has always been the difficulty of houquan (and other pure monkey styles) that has served as a barrier to entry to the system. i hope i am not overstating the obvious here, but if houquan cannot be practiced by as large of a population as hung-gar, for example, then it's obviously going to be something that is more rare to find.

...also let's not forget that acting like a monkey has probably worked as a deterrent for many who take themselves too seriously to do so.

[mantid1]

I have read the books and now about monkeys.

If monkey boxing involves so much tumbling techniques that the average person cannot do then it isnt a good system and maybe they should leave it to the monkeys.

If you watch monkeys fight on discovery, national geo the biggest part of it is posturing with no tumbling involved after that they just beat and bite the crap out of each other.

The insect praying Mantis resembles very little what the humans do in fighting but it is called mantis. Realistically your not going to learn much from fighting by watching a bug. I think they are just names....thats it.

I think it all falls apart when people try to mimic the animal or insect. About 25 years ago I saw a form called "wounded Tiger" it was the funniest thing I had ever seen...guy was actually laying on his back acting like a wounded tiger...my sifu just laghed and said they should call it "tiger stuck in Tar pit"...thats what it looked like.

[kristcaldwell]

i'm glad you now about monkeys.

[mooyingmantis]

Gino,
Another monkey system was brought to the U.S. by Master John Wing Lok Ng. Master Ng resides in Kentucky. However, I have heard that he has retired from teaching.
The sets are taught by our mutual friend Daniel Eckhart, formerly of Indiana, but now residing in Pennsylvania.

Unfortunately, the public perception of Monkey boxing comes from lame Hong Kong movies and Wushu. As you know, our monkey boxing is very far removed from both of these.

So, to clear up some common misconceptions of Monkey boxing:
1. Monkey boxing does not require any greater flexibility than any other Northern Shaolin type system.
2. Rolling on the ground is a very small part of Monkey boxing. Most techniques are done standing.
3. Monkey boxing does not require "imitative" type movements. It is based on how monkeys fight strategically.
4. TSPK has done a wonderful job marketing itself. They have had numerous articles in magazines, numerous clips on YouTube, and have done numerous demos at tournaments and public events. When peeps think of monkey, they think TSPK is the only game in town. This is far from true.

BTW, why is this in the NPM forum? :p Perhaps Gene, or a mod should move this to the Kung Fu Forum.

[MightyB]

BTW, why is this in the NPM forum? :p Perhaps Gene, or a mod should move this to the Kung Fu Forum.

Well - in his original post, he mentioned how Mantis specifically mentions monkey and then the white ape series... besides, it'd just get lost in that cesspool and I think it's actually been an interesting topic. Good posts guys.

[kristcaldwell]

so what would you consider this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKEUDHUpcV0&list=PLD790248EF7B6B062&index=4

it's obviously not TSPK. it sure doesn't look like modern wushu houquan, but it does have a lot of traditional techniques in it.

does it not require above average agility and does it not have a fair amount of tumbling?

i'm not being sarcastic. i've seen plenty of traditional houquan in my day - and this routine seems to fit the bill. i'm quite sure that you and i are just commenting on our observations of what monkey boxing is (we've just happened to observe different styles of monkey boxing).

[mantid1]

Thanks for posting the vid!

It makes me realize why Monkey fist isnt more popular. Most of that was a man trying to act like a monkey some kicks and rolls in it.

In most animal styles you never see a human trying to look like a tiger, dragon, Eagle or praying mantis.

I dont think Brendan Lai tried to look like a praying mantis as he performed a form.

Who knows maybe the dudes who put mantis together with all of the other styles were the first one to come up with the Western style guard and someone said "hey, that looks like the way a praying mantis hold its claws"....A new style was born!

[-N-]

The insect praying Mantis resembles very little what the humans do in fighting but it is called mantis. Realistically your not going to learn much from fighting by watching a bug. I think they are just names....thats it.

When our students get caught up in the poetic names of techniques, we tell them, "Y'know that's just the cultural frame of reference in the old days. If that were invented now, it would be called left right beyotch slap grab and beat the sh#7 out of him." "300 years from now, people would be debating the meaning of beyotch slap and pimp slap."

[mooyingmantis]

so what would you consider this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKEUDHUpcV0&list=PLD790248EF7B6B062&index=4

it's obviously not TSPK. it sure doesn't look like modern wushu houquan, but it does have a lot of traditional techniques in it.

does it not require above average agility and does it not have a fair amount of tumbling?

i'm not being sarcastic. i've seen plenty of traditional houquan in my day - and this routine seems to fit the bill. i'm quite sure that you and i are just commenting on our observations of what monkey boxing is (we've just happened to observe different styles of monkey boxing).

The link you posted is a demonstration by Chen Zhaoming laoshi. It is a beautiful form. Yes, it has a few fighting techniques in it. However, it is predominantly for show and due to the excessive mimicking, I would say it has been heavily influenced by Wushu.

I don't really see the point of your post. The guidelines I gave were a general way of assessing what a typical traditional monkey style is like. My point was that it is no more difficult to learn than any other Northern system.

No, the video in the link you provided doesn't require above average agility. Any Northern Shaolin practitioner could probably learn this form in about a week.

As for the tumbling, it contains 5 shoulder rolls, 1 backward roll and 3 "black dragon wraps the pillar" movements. Again, simple Northern Shaolin movements.

This is the typical type of form demonstrated for audiences. Perhaps it was a traditional form "jazzed up" for public demonstration. I also perform the first form of our system 怒 猴 出 洞 - nù hóu chū dòng in a modified, "jazzed up" version for public demonstrations. I just don't waste time with a lot of mimicking during demonstrations.

My opinions are based on 33 years of training in and teaching Houquan. During that time I have seen the traditional monkey boxing methods of a few systems which also fit the descriptions I gave. I have also seen many examples of modern monkey forms from the Mainland that have been tainted by Wushu.

Mantid1,
I agree with your assessment of the form in the link. If that was typical of traditional monkey boxing, I wouldn't have wasted my time with it. Fortunately, some systems have more meat and potatoes than just pudding. :)

[ginosifu]

Well - in his original post, he mentioned how Mantis specifically mentions monkey and then the white ape series... besides, it'd just get lost in that cesspool and I think it's actually been an interesting topic. Good posts guys.

I was hoping to get a bit more intellegent responses in this forum. Although there are many other ppes that have info on Monkey style, mightyb has it right.... too many meatheads up there. Also was looking to see any relationship with the Mantis Monkey and it's Monkey backround.

It's getting late for me now... gotta put the kids to bed and I will add more tommorrow. Good posts guys thx

ginosifu

[MightyB]

When our students get caught up in the poetic names of techniques, we tell them, "Y'know that's just the cultural frame of reference in the old days. If that were invented now, it would be called left right beyotch slap grab and beat the sh#7 out of him." "300 years from now, people would be debating the meaning of beyotch slap and pimp slap."

Too funny :D I like your style - almost poetic.





This really is how I communicate some of the techniques though. It's all about frame of reference. Sometimes I think we get caught up in trying to out Chinese the Chinese. Meaning we lose the spirit is search of something that was never intended to be there.

[MightyB]

I was hoping to get a bit more intellegent responses in this forum. Although there are many other ppes that have info on Monkey style, mightyb has it right.... too many meatheads up there. Also was looking to see any relationship with the Mantis Monkey and it's Monkey backround.

It's getting late for me now... gotta put the kids to bed and I will add more tommorrow. Good posts guys thx

ginosifu


The good thing is on this forum there are quite a few posters that have the ability to look up the information in the original manuscripts. Hopefully they can find some point of reference. I have a feeling though that maybe you stumbled onto one of those things that people may have taken for granted and it may be lost to antiquity. Lets hope not.

[mantid1]

I have to admit I love the poetic names and the culture behind the systems. Its a big part of what makes it an Art.

But, I have to agree with N its just what they referenced at the time. they had no video cameras at the time so they passed on the techniques with forms amoung other things. Why not put a little bling in the form to make it more artistic and fun? The bad part about it people arnt sure where the art stops and the real world stuff comes in....you know the gray area in forms.

Mooying doesnt have to move like a monkey he is big enough and strong enough to pull someone apart like a big gorrilla.....that is meant to be a compliment by the way:) Yeah, I dont see you wasting time with the show stuff.

[kristcaldwell]

i feel as though i must apologize to mooying. i didn't mean to waste anyone's time with a post that was "pointless." i was trying to stimulate the conversation so as to uncover more information (and for that, i believe i have been successful).

you obviously have more experience than i (you have been teaching longer than i have been alive). and i am happy to know that traditional houquan is alive and well in the US. your knowledge of the subject speaks for itself.

i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.

[B.Tunks]

Bai Yuan in Tanglang is a person, not actually an animal. More like a person nicknamed after the animal (but possessing animal spirit), but a figure kind of in the twilight of legend and history. The 'monkey' footwork in Tanglang is AKA 'yuanhou'. The larger monkey that is called an ape (but is not actually an ape), is sometimes called 'mahou'. Sometimes this yuan - 'ape' is mistranslated as gibbon, which is actually an ape. There are gibbons in China but this one is not a gibbon. The Bai Yuan legend in TLQ is not exclusive to our system. Of course most obviously it is in common with Tongbei/bi. The footwork comes from a style that was influenced by the spirit or essence of the monkey/ape, and is therefore not exactly mimic. As far as traditional monkey' styles' in China, of course they exist. Again, they are generally like Tanglang and reflect essence or spirit rather than directly mimic, however there are others that also contain elements of mimicry and are not modern wushu.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Although i agree some get caught up in poetic names, some are loaded with meaning and intent. The average practitioner probably has no need to know but transmitters have something of an obligation.

[ginosifu]

Bai Yuan in Tanglang is a person, not actually an animal. More like a person nicknamed after the animal (but possessing animal spirit), but a figure kind of in the twilight of legend and history. The 'monkey' footwork in Tanglang is 'yuanhou' - the larger monkey that is called an ape (but is not actually an ape), and is sometimes called 'mahou'. Sometimes this yuan - 'ape' is mistranslated as gibbon, which is actually an ape. There are gibbons in China but this one is not a gibbon.

Did Bai Yuan bring the Monkey footwork to Tang Lang? Or was he just a character that exemplified Monkey spirit? The Monkey footwork brought into Mantis.... is the original style still in existance? Or maybe was it just some techniques of Monkey style footwork?

The reason I bring this up is that the Monkey I practice (from mooyingmantis) is from a tail less monkey. Tail less Monkeys include Gibbons, Apes, Chimpanzes and Gorillas.

Here are a few Monkey clips. These are less modern day wushu stuff but still not the old traditional Monkey I am looking to find:

Drunken Monkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdRvSrFMZ3c&feature=related)

Lost Monkey TSPK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh9WXaOVuEk&feature=related)

South East Asian Monkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DczUO_neenU&feature=related)

More South East Asian Monkey style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0mmlMb-X9A&feature=related)

I have not really found any old school Monkey. Most stuff on the net today is wushu stuff and not what I am looking for.


i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.

Here is a clip of me doing some parts of the forms and some applications:

Angry Monkey Fist Hand Forms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM)

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

The Angry Monkey Fist that I practice is rooted in Northern Shaolin basics. I have been practicing the Northern Shaolin lineage of Gu Ru Zhang (Ku Ye Cheong) for over 20 years and can see many similarities in movement and theory of both systems. I have over the years practiced 7 Star Praying Mantis but have not reached a high level yet. I also can see a general resemblance to Praying Mantis style (on a very basic level).

The Angry Monkey system itself very little itching and scratching and eating fleas and more emphasis on fighting tactics. If you look at any of the more traditional Monkey forms and look past the animal mimicry, you can see the emphasis of the style and what techniques the may employ. Here are some more tradtional looking Monkey Forms:

Tien Shan Pai Monkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk7P7SnA-9A)

Shaolin Temple Ape - Monkey Boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeU-40062A)

I think these guys are out of Kentucky somewhere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U73pMIP7XRM&feature=related)

Mantis Monkey Form? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOcXJEcFDo)

Again look past the antics and see the Monkeys tactics... are they their? Or is it just kung fu techniques with some monkey flavor added?

ginosifu

ps forgot this one

Kung Fu Master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZFSPGIE27Y)

[Tainan Mantis]

In 1564 Governor Zheng, Ruo-zengs wrote a whole chapter on the "The 36 Tactics of the Monkey style" in his book "Posting as Governor South of the Yangtze River.
ginosifu

Zheng Ruozeng(1505-1580),was involved in coastal defense against Japanese pirates. In 1562 published Chu Hai Tu Bian-A Maritime Historical Survey
This book was reissued in 1592 & 1624 MINUS Zheng Ruozeng's name. Instead replaced with the name Hu Zongxian.

I have not been able to uncover other information of Zheng Ruozeng's published material. Where can I find it?

[Tainan Mantis]

The book is called Jiang Nan Jing Lue, I would translate that into something like Introduction to the South of the River. Jiang Nan being a common term in Chinese.

I don't have this book in my collection. I was under the impression that it is a list of martial arts, not an explanation.

The reference to Monkey is Hou quan 36 lu, which means 36 Roads of Monkey Fist. The choice of using the word "tactic" for "road is an interesting one.

The list of martial arts in this book is long including such names as

Zhao Family Fist
Southern Fist
Can Family's Northern Fist
Six Roads of Xi Family Fist
Zhang Fei's 4 Roads of Divine Fist

The list goes on and on.

The most interesting being

9 gun 18 die da zhua na- Nine Rolls and 18 Falls of Strikes beatings and siezing

A form which existed in old Mantis though I have not found its existance in present day.

[mooyingmantis]

i feel as though i must apologize to mooying. i didn't mean to waste anyone's time with a post that was "pointless." i was trying to stimulate the conversation so as to uncover more information (and for that, i believe i have been successful).

you obviously have more experience than i (you have been teaching longer than i have been alive). and i am happy to know that traditional houquan is alive and well in the US. your knowledge of the subject speaks for itself.

i do, however, have one request. if you have any videos of you performing your style, i would very much like you to share them with us. if i have been misguided in what i believed traditional houquan to be, i would like to see an example of the real thing.

Kristcaldwell,
Sorry, "pointless" was a poor choice of words. I meant no offense, but after rereading what I wrote I see that I came off like an a$$. My apologies.

No, I do not have any videos of me performing our forms. However, I am sure there are others out there who attended the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships or the Hall of Fame Open International Chinese Martial Arts Championship in the past that may have videotaped my part of the Master's Demos. If so, I hope they will upload a clip to YouTube.

Gino posted a link to his DVD trailer that shows a few of the techniques of our style taken straight from the forms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM

The July/August 2010 issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article about the fighting strategies of our style. These will give you an idea of what we do and how we do it.

Mantid1,
Thank you for your kind words! Though I think you over-rate me. LOL!

[kristcaldwell]

thank you for the link...but it was just enough to make me want to see more (guess i'll be buying some DVDs)!

[B.Tunks]

Did Bai Yuan bring the Monkey footwork to Tang Lang? Or was he just a character that exemplified Monkey spirit? The Monkey footwork brought into Mantis.... is the original style still in existance? Or maybe was it just some techniques of Monkey style footwork?

The reason I bring this up is that the Monkey I practice (from mooyingmantis) is from a tail less monkey. Tail less Monkeys include Gibbons, Apes, Chimpanzes and Gorillas.

Bai Yuan is two things, a mythological/historical figure and a system of long boxing which is both linked to this figure and influenced by the physical characteristics of apes or monkeys. The footwork doesn't come from the person. Most likely this footwork in Tanglang comes from Tongbei AKA Bai Yuan Tongbei.

There are no true apes (the only true ape is the Gibbon) in central or Northern China - where these styles originated. They are found only in the south - Yunnan. They were once found in Central China too but have been extinct there since about the 10th century and were almost certainly a different species from what is left today. Yuan became the generic name for big monkeys with very short or next to no tails, such as the Stump-tailed macaque. Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques). Obviously there are no chimp or gorilla type apes in China and there hasn't been any since Gigantopithecus.

Maybe your style is based on the gibbon and possibly related to Tongbei? I have no idea. Nu Hou Quan isn't found in China so the people that first taught it in America would have the best idea about it's origins and the particular primate it's modelled on.

BT

[jmd161]

Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques).

BT

I seem to remember my sifu saying something like this about the monkey we have in black tiger... there is very little mimicking (eating fleas or facial expression) but, you can tell it's definitely monkey!

[ginosifu]

Bai Yuan is two things, a mythological/historical figure and a system of long boxing which is both linked to this figure and influenced by the physical characteristics of apes or monkeys. The footwork doesn't come from the person. Most likely this footwork in Tanglang comes from Tongbei AKA Bai Yuan Tongbei.

There are no true apes (the only true ape is the Gibbon) in central or Northern China - where these styles originated. They are found only in the south - Yunnan. They were once found in Central China too but have been extinct there since about the 10th century and were almost certainly a different species from what is left today. Yuan became the generic name for big monkeys with very short or next to no tails, such as the Stump-tailed macaque. Apart from Tongbei, most monkey boxing seems to relates to these monkeys (macaques). Obviously there are no chimp or gorilla type apes in China and there hasn't been any since Gigantopithecus.

Maybe your style is based on the gibbon and possibly related to Tongbei? I have no idea. Nu Hou Quan isn't found in China so the people that first taught it in America would have the best idea about it's origins and the particular primate it's modelled on.

BT

Good info... thank you. The Nu Hou Quan is supposed to have come from Shanxi province. Isn't there a reference to Tong Bei coming from somewhere in Shanxi or near there?

ginosifu

[mickey]

ginosifu,

B.Tunks has offered something that you may want to research and that is the migratory patterns of people. People often get into the "from the north to the south" when it comes to some styles. Why not from the south to the north?

I think Taiwan still maintains monkey styles from Fukien province. Of major importance are the fingers-- for stabs and thrusts and they still train for that.


mickey

[mooyingmantis]

Friends,

To set the record straight:

1. Our style has nothing to do with Tongbeiquan. It looks and moves nothing like it.
2. The style was originally a marriage of Northern Shaolin basics, Di Tang ground fighting and Monkey Boxing.
3. It was passed to me as Monkey Boxing (Houquan). I changed the name to Angry Monkey Boxing (Nu Hou Quan) because the name of the first form is Angry Monkey Exits the Cave (Nu Hou Chu Dong).
4. I have no idea what type of monkey/ape the style was originally based on. The style is tailless in that none of the moves mimic the actions of a monkey's tail.
5. The style consists of three empty hand sets, plus weapon sets.
6. I learned the style in my early twenties (late 70s) when I was too dumb to ask the right questions I would now ask an instructor and too broke to afford a Super 8 or VHS recorder to record my training.

[B.Tunks]

There you have it!

T

[B.Tunks]

FTR, doesn't look like TB to me either from what I've seen. More like TLQ.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Tai Tsu created a Monkey or just practiced a Monkey style? Was it a whole system or just a form?

It is my understanding he practiced an existing system, or several of them. Sal may debate me, but I have had more than one lineage or branch of Tai Tzu tell me it had 8 core sets.

I know Shaolin preserved one set. They didn't get it from him though. They had to go to the town he learned it form, and get it form them. I think they made the set though. It was probably just loose techniques when he did them.

One of the Generals that was in the military before Zhao Kuang Yin was Emperor did a type of monkey style based on a Gibbon called Tong Bi Quan. Since they were freinds, many people assume this was the Monkey system he was known for. I feel that is probably correct as they were of similar rank in addition to being freinds. They would have known the same stuff.

There are a number of Tong Bi sets preserved at Shaolin. These are supposed to be that system.

This Gibbon based style does not 'Look' like a Monkey, or ape style. This is because it uses the body mechanics of the Gibbon, but does not imitate the way it fights or acts.

Zhao Kuang Yin developed his Hong Quan system (Flooding Fist), which looks almost exactly like the Tong Bi of his freind to me. The two arts are also generally paired together when listed, which leads me to believe they are intimately ties together.

If you put the forms all in the same curriculum, I cannot tell them apart actually. They look like the same system to me.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shaolin Temple Ape - Monkey Boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeU-40062A)



This is the set from Zhao Kuang Yin. Shaolin did not get it form him though. They got it form the same village he did. That is the history as I understand it.

[Tainan Mantis]

This is the set from Zhao Kuang Yin.

From the death of Zhao Kuangyin until the first NON fiction mention of a martial art descended from him passed a period of about 500 years.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is the quote of Monkey Boxing from the original Ming Dynasty Book.

Monkey Boxing 36 Roads
It comes from the 8th scroll. Here is a listing of the contents, which you can see do not include much on martial arts.
Different military tactics of the time including boats of many types, fire, marines etc

卷八上
　　杂著：兵器总论、火器论、处置焰硝议、制火球法附录。海船论、福船论、沙船论、黄鱼船议、官兵议、水兵 议、水操法论、水战陆战不同论、御海洋论、海程论、洋山记、潮候利害论、开互市辨、论屯田、守城论、无城堡 而守之之法论。

Kind of dissapointing for us, though what he had to say on Longfist was unique. More later....

[mooyingmantis]

FTR, doesn't look like TB to me either from what I've seen. More like TLQ.

Though a couple moves look similar to TLQ, the moves are played quite differently. Different feel, different flow. Plus the system strategies are quite different.

My introduction to TLQ did not happen till about seven years after my introduction to Houquan. Though it was a few similarities between the two that first piqued my interest in TLQ.

[phoenixdog]

Let's not forget mi tsung i, the lost track style, as a complete monkey system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LeYpQqxTFs

[jmd161]

Let's not forget mi tsung i, the lost track style, as a complete monkey system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LeYpQqxTFs

Thanks for the vid I had never seen any Lost Track before!

[mantid1]

Very interesting forms! I would like to see a break down of the rest of the curriculum.

[mantid1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qr3SDv8lpQ

start watching at 4:26 till 5:20 and you will get in depth theory.:)

Actually I like this movie, maybe because it was one of the first I saw as a kid.

[SergeTk]

Shaolin monk Bai, Yi-feng combined monkey style with 4 other arts to form what is still known today as Ng Chor Kuen or 5 Ancestors Fist.

The 5 Ancestors Fist has Monkey in but again, is it just a form?, just some techniques? or a whole Monkey system?

ginosifu

5 Ancestors include forms specific to each ancestor and we also have forms which include all 5 ancestors. Is there a complete monkey system within 5 ancestors? I don't know....

Here is a link to one of 5 Ancestor's monkey forms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujd1fKSnh_s

[mantid1]

Well after watching some of these "traditional" monkey sets the more I question people knowing what is going on.

These forms seem like they imitate a monkey before and after a fight or during every day life. Great acting, that is for sure. But, just acting.

If you were going to have a pure monkey FIGHTING system I would say that modern Judo or wrestling would be it. If you watch video that is how monkeys fight.

These guys immitate monkeys in everyday life but not fighting.

If I recall correctly, mooying said his forms do not immitate monkeys.....which would be correct in my opinion.

Getting on topic for the PRAYING MANTIS forum......I dont think that a mantis master really tries to look like a mantis....tiger master like a tiger or crane master like a crane. It is more about attitude and culture. That is it.

Praying mantis has the foot work of the monkey? Well I dont think it they really thought it was "monkey" foot work. A monkey or ape has the ability to walk up right....so that may be where it comes from. "Fast and agile footwork" would probably be the best description....its just that people do not understand things when it comes to culture....and yes I know about the "monkey king" , santa claus and wang lang.

This is an example of a monkey fight. Why would anyone want to immitate that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7-1p870wLw

Gorillas in training but not actually fighing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mov-Zfsr0Uk&feature=related

Watch this and tell me that Judo and wresting shouldnt be the monkey style! Single leg take downs traditional throws and escapes...good stuff! I love the way he initiates the attack at 22 seconds inthe vid!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_JSM6RRrk&feature=related

[ginosifu]

Well after watching some of these "traditional" monkey sets the more I question people knowing what is going on.

These forms seem like they imitate a monkey before and after a fight or during every day life. Great acting, that is for sure. But, just acting.

If you were going to have a pure monkey FIGHTING system I would say that modern Judo or wrestling would be it. If you watch video that is how monkeys fight.

These guys immitate monkeys in everyday life but not fighting.

If I recall correctly, mooying said his forms do not immitate monkeys.....which would be correct in my opinion.

Getting on topic for the PRAYING MANTIS forum......I dont think that a mantis master really tries to look like a mantis....tiger master like a tiger or crane master like a crane. It is more about attitude and culture. That is it.

Praying mantis has the foot work of the monkey? Well I dont think it they really thought it was "monkey" foot work. A monkey or ape has the ability to walk up right....so that may be where it comes from. "Fast and agile footwork" would probably be the best description....its just that people do not understand things when it comes to culture....and yes I know about the "monkey king" , santa claus and wang lang.

This is an example of a monkey fight. Why would anyone want to immitate that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7-1p870wLw

Gorillas in training but not actually fighing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mov-Zfsr0Uk&feature=related

Watch this and tell me that Judo and wresting shouldnt be the monkey style! Single leg take downs traditional throws and escapes...good stuff! I love the way he initiates the attack at 22 seconds inthe vid!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_JSM6RRrk&feature=related

I am a student of Mooyingmantis and teach his monkey system. Let me say that there is less monkeying around in our systems forms. However, our Monkey style does include animal (monkey) tactics.

All traditional animal mimic styles use something that has been attributed to their animals survival skills:

Large Monkeys such as Chimps and Gorillas use swatting or pawing techniques for punches. They also like to charge and pounce on top of smaller creatures.

Small Monkey such as Gibbons use agility / speed / trickery to out wit or confuse their opponents. Smaller Monkeys also use quick grabbing and scratching as well as biting techniques.

All of these animal techniques can be converted into human equations and fighting situations.

In our Angry Monkey system we do not scratch our balls and eat fleas while in a fighting stance. However we use Monkey based techniques such as:

Reaching over someones guard to scratch there eyes. While they block the eye scratch we kick them in the groin. etc. These are nothing new in the realm of Kung Fu, just used in a way for Monkey.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

5 Ancestors include forms specific to each ancestor and we also have forms which include all 5 ancestors. Is there a complete monkey system within 5 ancestors? I don't know....

Here is a link to one of 5 Ancestor's monkey forms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujd1fKSnh_s

I watched Andrew Foster (5 Ancestors Sifu) do a Monkey form similar to the one you posted. Very Southeast Asian in flavor. Are there applications to the Monkey sets? Do you fight with the Monkey style?

ginosifu

[Fa Xing]

The reason I bring this up is that the Monkey I practice (from mooyingmantis) is from a tail less monkey. Tail less Monkeys include Gibbons, Apes, Chimpanzes and Gorillas.

"Tail-less" monkeys are referred to as Great Apes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape), of which we (humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_%28genus%29)) belong. So, you want to fight like a human ape?

[mantis108]

Let's not forget the "Bear style" ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUcXoZTQLLA

I think we should remember that fighting based on animal styles are usually based on context just like the Bear style fighting above.

Animals fight for 3 reasons. Food, sex, and survival.

Animals play fight when they are young. These play fights are actually life lessons for the 3 reasons listed.

When they fight for food and survival, their actions are sharp and short. Simply, they don't mess about.

Animal fighting in most cases are honorable fights or ritual fights meaning their design isn't about killing each other although it may seem so. In the case of the bear fight above, it is to attract the attention of a female bear and earn the right to mate with her.

Fighting is either practical or ritual purposes through out the animal kingdom. So when we examine our nature and revisit our animal instinct. Please take a moment and ask yourselves what purpose does your fighting (system and techniques included) serves.

Mantis108

[mooyingmantis]

Mantid1,

Our monkey system does include throwing and grappling, as well as striking and kicking.

Unfortunately, these things can be very dangerous to practice at more than a slow speed.

A few years ago I taught a throwing technique during a seminar at Gino's school. It is a very dangerous technique that works well in combat. Though we practiced the technique as cautiously and slowly as possible, one smaller student threw a larger student and caused an injury to the ribcage that could only be fixed through surgery. :( It was a sad reminder that combat efficient techniques can be very hard to practice safely, even with due care.

[ginosifu]

"Tail-less" monkeys are referred to as Great Apes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape), of which we (humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****_%28genus%29)) belong. So, you want to fight like a human ape?

All animals have techniques unique to their species.

Big Cats pounce on top, then grab the throat and suffocate their opponent.

Bears and Gorilla charge then pounce on top and use pawing or swatting to pulverize their opponents.

Small Monkeys use speed, agility, deception and faints to get in close enough to bite and claw their opponents.

Snakes spit in their opponents eyes or bite with venom and some coil around and suffocate their opponents.

Martial Arts masters from the past sought out to copy these tactics and translate them into usable human fighting techniques. Animal mimic styles try to emulate some of these unique animal strategies in their quest to be a viable ma.



Animals fight for 3 reasons. Food, sex, and survival.
Mantis108

Mantis108: As sophisticated animals, can we not utilize animal techniques for survival in self defense?

Mooyingmantis: Krista's chest has arthritis built up now and every once in a while it acts up and bothers her.

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

Mooyingmantis: Krista's chest has arthritis built up now and every once in a while it acts up and bothers her.

ginosifu

Dang, sorry to hear that. :(

[ginosifu]

Dang, sorry to hear that. :(

It's really kinda gross, she has a big divot in her chest about the size of a golf ball and about 1/4-1/2 " deep. It is like part of her anatomy moved over to create this hole - eeewwwwwwu

She's ok with it though, just another battle scare in her kung fu character !

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

It's really kinda gross, she has a big divot in her chest about the size of a golf ball and about 1/4-1/2 " deep. It is like part of her anatomy moved over to create this hole - eeewwwwwwu

She's ok with it though, just another battle scare in her kung fu character !

ginosifu

Hope her husband isn't reading this and wondering how you know about the details of her chest. :D

She is quite a girl!

[Fa Xing]

All animals have techniques unique to their species.

I can understand that, I just find it better to practice martial arts according to our own anatomical and physiological make-up where we would be more efficient and arguably more effective.

Animal styles sure are fun to practice though :p

Oh, and since I have a biology background, I get a little upset when people call apes "monkeys", they're not monkeys. Monkeys generally have tails, apes do not.

[ginosifu]

Oh, and since I have a biology background, I get a little upset when people call apes "monkeys", they're not monkeys. Monkeys generally have tails, apes do not.

I think a lot us don't understand the difference. In our system it is the tail less apes (Gibbons, Chimps and Gorillas) that makes up our style.

ginosifu

[B.Tunks]

I think a lot us don't understand the difference. In our system it is the tail less apes (Gibbons, Chimps and Gorillas) that makes up our style.

ginosifu

I still don't understand how a Chinese system came to imitate gorillas and chimps though. Pretty sure I saw some knuckle walking in one clip. Definitely exclusively used by the great apes and not the gibbon (and we've already established that this style has pretty much nothing to do with any of the gibbon influenced styles). Though it was with the full fist which is what Orangutans do - at least Borneo and Sumatra are a little closer to China than Africa is. Maybe the founder spent a lot of time in zoos???

FX - I've got a zoology background too, hence the interest...

BT

[mooyingmantis]

As I stated earlier:




To set the record straight:

...I have no idea what type of monkey/ape the style was originally based on. The style is tailless in that none of the moves mimic the actions of a monkey's tail.

The knuckle walking you observed at the start of the form was simply added for demonstrations. It was designed to set us apart from other demonstrators and to identify us as simian style practitioners. Otherwise, without a knowledge of our monkey theories, onlookers could easily confuse us with any other type of Northern Shaolin type practitioner.

Perhaps we should change the opening to performing the sets naked and flinging poo at the crowd. Would that be more acceptable to amateur zoologists?

LOL! Get over the few seconds of mimicking displayed at the beginning of the form. :D The rest of the form is what defines us.

If peeps want to split hairs, should Hung Gar stylists drop dragon techniques because dragons do not really exist? Should the type of snake be identified for a style to have legitimate snake techniques? Such discussions are silly.

[B.Tunks]

Perhaps we should change the opening to performing the sets naked and flinging poo at the crowd. Would that be more acceptable to amateur zoologists?


Yeah, that's what's missing!

T

[B.Tunks]

Anyway, on a more serious note Gino kicked it off with some very interesting questions about Monkey styles and this is where it got to. My own interest is due to having trained monkey boxing, mantis boxing (with the obvious monkey/ape aspects), studied Chinese history and zoology. Couldn't help myself. Gino kept reinforcing the big tailless primate angle and therefore I had to point out the obvious. In all honesty, looks to me as if its if it's a modern creation from outside China. As a keen researcher I'm sure you are not far off the same conclusion.

BT

[mooyingmantis]

Anyway, on a more serious note Gino kicked it off with some very interesting questions about Monkey styles and this is where it got to. My own interest is due to having trained monkey boxing, mantis boxing (with the obvious monkey/ape aspects), studied Chinese history and zoology. Couldn't help myself. Gino kept reinforcing the big tailless primate angle and therefore I had to point out the obvious. In all honesty, looks to me as if its if it's a modern creation from outside China. As a keen researcher I'm sure you are not far off the same conclusion.

BT

As I said previously:


To set the record straight:

2. The style was originally a marriage of Northern Shaolin basics, Di Tang ground fighting and Monkey Boxing.
3. It was passed to me as Monkey Boxing (Houquan)...

This is what I was told, that is what I know.

If you focus on the first few seconds of the form, that is only designed to get the attention of those watching, you are really missing the point. The meat and potatoes come afterwards. 'Nuff said!

[Fa Xing]

Oh, i could care less about the fancy stuff, but I would like to see it in action against resisting partners (ie a little sparring :D).

And I am recovered forms junkie myself, 7 years clean with only a minor step back here and there lol.

[mooyingmantis]

Oh, i could care less about the fancy stuff, but I would like to see it in action against resisting partners (ie a little sparring :D).

And I am recovered forms junkie myself, 7 years clean with only a minor step back here and there lol.

Agreed! If it doesn't work in combat, it may as well be ballet. Combat has ALWAYS been my emphasis in CMA.

[ginosifu]

Anyway, on a more serious note Gino kicked it off with some very interesting questions about Monkey styles and this is where it got to. My own interest is due to having trained monkey boxing, mantis boxing (with the obvious monkey/ape aspects), studied Chinese history and zoology. Couldn't help myself. Gino kept reinforcing the big tailless primate angle and therefore I had to point out the obvious. In all honesty, looks to me as if its if it's a modern creation from outside China. As a keen researcher I'm sure you are not far off the same conclusion.

BT

I have studied Northern Shaolin (Gu Ru Zhang lineage) for over 20 years. The founder of the our Monkey style, no doubt had an in depth knowledge of Northern Shaolin. In the forms, if you can look past some of the simian or monkey gestures, you will see the Shaolin influence, however the theory and strategy is Monkey oriented.

Maybe I should have not put the Chimp and Gorilla reference with the Tail less part. It was just to separate our Monkey from all other Monkeys styles that may have tails.

The founder was from a northern province (Shanxi) and if I had to guess it would be Gibbons that people were emulating up there. However, there is no relationship to Tong Bei or White Ape boxing in our system. I am not sure why everyone thinks that all Gibbon boxing is either Tong Bei or White Ape though?

ginosifu

[B.Tunks]

All cool. Very interested in this stuff, though it's usually not a sensible use of time. Fascinated (but not obsessed) by origins/development and spend a fair bit of time digging through my own material to find sources - generally not what they are publicly presented as. Even recent history is very murky...

T

[mooyingmantis]

All cool. Very interested in this stuff, though it's usually not a sensible use of time. Fascinated (but not obsessed) by origins/development and spend a fair bit of time digging through my own material to find sources - generally not what they are publicly presented as. Even recent history is very murky...

T

Brendan,
Agree on all points!

And that is why I never put much stock on anyone's lineage. Almost every lineage that I have researched in both Japanese and Chinese arts eventually came down to folktales and speculation.

I present our Monkey lineage as legend. Learn from the moral story behind the legend and don't sweat the details.

As for me, I prefer knowing what the guy standing across from me can do, his ancestors won't be hitting me. :D

[B.Tunks]

When it comes down to fighting, yes lineage means nothing. However, when it comes to passing on a valuable tradition, I think it has its place.

[Fa Xing]

As for me, I prefer knowing what the guy standing across from me can do, his ancestors won't be hitting me. :D

That is one of the smartest things I have read on here!

[phoenixdog]

I plan to post the complete mi tsung i system and lineage to answer some questions about pure monkey kung fu styles. In my view, the monkey "antics" that are so prevalent in some monkey styles were either added for performance effect or to pay respect to the monkey king connection to budda. If you think about the characteristics of monkey style rather than imitation of a monkey, you will see that monkeys stay very, very low to the ground and are very cruel and viscious. Last year, a pet monkey ripped the face and testicles off it's owner. This is how monkeys fight, ripping, tearing, gouging, breaking, smashing. Very fast and agile, very low to the ground. Hsing yi monkey, mi tsung i and di tang {grand earth) have none of the comic, useless antics in most monkey styles because it serves no purpose in combat.

[ginosifu]

I plan to post the complete mi tsung i system and lineage to answer some questions about pure monkey kung fu styles. In my view, the monkey "antics" that are so prevalent in some monkey styles were either added for performance effect or to pay respect to the monkey king connection to budda. If you think about the characteristics of monkey style rather than imitation of a monkey, you will see that monkeys stay very, very low to the ground and are very cruel and viscious. Last year, a pet monkey ripped the face and testicles off it's owner.This is how monkeys fight, ripping, tearing, gouging, breaking, smashing. Very fast and agile, very low to the ground. Hsing yi monkey, mi tsung i and di tang {grand earth) have none of the comic, useless antics in most monkey styles because it serves no purpose in combat.

This is very true. Just in the news recently a chimp ripped the face and hands off of a woman. It was all over the news how she got a new face thru facial reconstructive surgery.

You are very right about fighting Monkey, it should be viscious and should not carry the "Antics". I think we can all say that the Antics were added for audience pleasure. Many kung fu master of old would demonstrate their skills for marketing purposes. Even now we all need to market our stuff so we add things that our target audience will enjoy.

Anyways I am anxious to hear your history and info on Monkey style

Thx

ginosifu

[elu296]

Sorry to be joining this thread months late, but I am a monkey style student and I can fill some of the unanswered questions in the last 5 pages.

Monkey style does still exist in Taiwan; though it is rare. I'm just back from teaching English there for a year where I studied with Master Hisham Al Haroun (German-born Syrian) in Tainan. He teaches southern monkey fist combined with Wing Chun and uses them to train MMA fighters. You can get the full details on Antonio Graceffo's Martial Arts Odyssey. He's done two episodes "Monkey Master" and "MMA in Taiwan" on YT and two articles "Monkey Master in the Cage" and "Wrestling the Monkey Master" (Google will find them). I'm afraid I do not know precisely what style or lineage this is apart from southern. Master H feels that all monkey styles are part of one family (he includes Hanuman techniques from Muay Thai) and used to be frustratingly vague about his exact lineage. However, I know he studied with two masters and from my own research, I believe one of them was a southern Taizuquan based monkey system (possibly even Liao Wu Chang, Taiwan's "monkey king" lineage) and the other southern Shaolin; I've seen him use and teach classical patterns like "Monkey washes face" and "Spiritual Monkey steals peach" which you can see in other southern monkey forms. He also told me that monkey is rare (in Taiwan) because it's considered so devastating that the masters are very selective about who they'll teach it to. One of his teachers practised monkey, but taught white crane and Hisham was the first student he'd shared monkey with in 20/30 years. Disappointingly, he never taught me any of his monkey forms. He teaches monkey techniques as part of his combined wing chun system with forms reserved for his "indoor" students (by which he really does mean disciples). I'm not interested in tying myself to one teacher in that fashion, so I only stayed for a year, but he did teach me some amazing stuff.

Monkey does indeed exist in Wuzuquan. Lot of people don't realize this, but most wuzuquan lineages have an incomplete syllabus. Overall; there are 18 basic wuzuquan forms (made by combined techniques from all five systems) then 18 forms from each of the original systems (18 crane forms, 18 Lohan, 18 Taizu and 18 monkey forms) then 18 advanced wuzuquan forms (mixing techniques again) and then Qigong and weapons forms. This builds up to well over 80 and even more when you consider how many wuzu forms are designed as 2-man sets. According to one Master in Fujian I read an interview with; it is very rare to find someone who knows the entire syllabus and classically, students would learn the basic 18, then pick one of the original systems to study, and after that choose as many of the advanced forms and weapons as they wanted; which probably explains the different lineage syllabus's today. Alex L. Co's book only lists 44 forms for example.

After time I spent some time in Hong Kong trying my hand at northern monkey under Master Teddy Lai. He's a student of Master Alex Tse (world famous for Mantis) and they have a small monkey/ape style (incidentally, Master Lai used the terms interchangeably) that consists of one hand form and 4 weapons; starting with "Drunk Ape Steal Peach" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UO-FUbzRfY) It was a good system, but I had to quit early as I'm a not-terribly-flexible six-foot gwailo and I found the upright low squatting positions just too uncomfortable. Southern monkey, with its rolls and kneeling techniques was much better for me and I'm now trying to get back into it. I'm exchanging emails with the teachers at a Sek Koh Sum lineage school in Singapore that I found via Master Eric Ling. You can read about it on
http://wulin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=5
and
http://wulin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=48&page=1

Master Low has passed away and I'm talking with the inheritors of his school about becoming a student so will hopefully have more info in the future.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hisham knew monkey before he ever came to Taiwan. I don't know where he learnt it either.

[Tainan Mantis]

He had spent some time researching an eagle claw master in Tainan but that didn't turn out well. Later he returned to Tainan from some travelling around the world and set up shop in Tainan city.

I was impressed with his granite rock that he beat with his hands.

[elu296]

Hisham knew monkey before he ever came to Taiwan. I don't know where he learnt it either.

Yes, sorry. Forgot to mention this. He studied with a monkey master in Berlin for 4 years, but quit because he felt it was lacking applications. Again, he never told me this lineage, but most likely candidate from my research is one of Hu Jianlong's Ta Sheng Men European students or maybe, given the lack of applications, a Wushu version. (Please note; Ta Sheng Men is completely different to the monkey part of Tai Shing Pek Kwar). He has studied with Taiwanese monkey masters; I've seen the pictures in his school, and yes, very impressive breaking skills. I've seen him go through marble myself and split a watermelon nearly in half with a two-finger eye gouge strike.

[Xian]

From the death of Zhao Kuangyin until the first NON fiction mention of a martial art descended from him passed a period of about 500 years.

There is a lot which was never recorded to history books but it still exists. I think it is and was nothing unsual in China. Also after how much has been lost alone from the "Cultural Revolution " we dont know.

---

Alexander Tse Sifu from Hong Kong also has some monkey sets. If I remember right they were called Lar Jar as style.

Heaven Gate Staff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9twURYMtg

Earth Gate Jian whip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25M0jaCy8M

Gold Hard Ring full form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zYGyIzN1rI&feature=related

Drunk Ape Steal Peach-full version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UO-FUbzRfY


Kind regards,
Xian

[bawang]

in traditional martial arts monkey boxing means concaving the chest and hunching the back. that is why there is no such thing as complete monkey boxing.

[Tainan Mantis]

in traditional martial arts monkey boxing means concaving the chest and hunching the back. that is why there is no such thing as complete monkey boxing.

Seems logical, that is what i have been shown.

[Tainan Mantis]

There is a lot which was never recorded to history books but it still exists.

Yes, things still exist, but the propogation of a secret martial art for 1000 years is not one of them.

Not even things which were not secret and were known by a large portion of the culture can easily be transmitted over a 500 or 1000 year period.
Language is a great example of what is known by all and yet the corruption over the centuries makes it unintelligable to later generations.

[Howard]

then 18 forms from each of the original systems (18 crane forms, 18 Lohan, 18 Taizu and 18 monkey forms) then 18 advanced wuzuquan forms (mixing techniques again) and then Qigong and weapons forms. This builds up to well over 80 and even more when you consider how many wuzu forms are designed as 2-man sets. According to one Master in Fujian I read an interview with;

Do you know name of the practitioner of the interview ?



After time I spent some time in Hong Kong trying my hand at northern monkey under Master Teddy Lai. He's a student of Master Alex Tse (world famous for Mantis) and they have a small monkey/ape style (incidentally, Master Lai used the terms interchangeably) that consists of one hand form and 4 weapons; starting with "Drunk Ape Steal Peach" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UO-FUbzRfY) It was a good system, but I had to quit early as I'm a not-terribly-flexible six-foot gwailo and I found the upright low squatting positions just too uncomfortable.


What is the origin of Alex Tse's monkey/Ape ?



Southern monkey, with its rolls and kneeling techniques was much better for me and I'm now trying to get back into it. I'm exchanging emails with the teachers at a Sek Koh Sum lineage school in Singapore that I found via Master Eric Ling. Master Low has passed away and I'm talking with the inheritors of his school about becoming a student so will hopefully have more info in the future.

From the discussion there it seems they are more forms than a system is that correct ?

Thanks in advance.

[ginosifu]

Why is it that Monkey system's never made it as a full major system such as Northern Eagle Claw or Souther Hung Gar or Tebetian White Crane etc etc?

Why is there only Monkey Techniques / Forms in the various systems? Why did these systems absorb Monkey into their curriculums? Was Monkey that awsome that everyone had to put some monkey technique or forms into their curriculums?

There are very few "Pure Monkey" systems out there.... Why is that? These were my original questions at the beginning of this thread.

The Angry Monkey system that I teach does not have a varifiable history. What about Alex Tse, maybe we can get some input from him on his Monkey system.

ginosifu

[Xian]

I believe Alex Tse Sifu is also here on board. At least I believe I have seen his nick several times here on board.


Kind regards,
Xian

[elu296]

Alexander Tse Sifu from Hong Kong also has some monkey sets. If I remember right they were called Lar Jar as style.

Heaven Gate Staff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9twURYMtg

Earth Gate Jian whip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25M0jaCy8M

Gold Hard Ring full form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zYGyIzN1rI&feature=related

Drunk Ape Steal Peach-full version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UO-FUbzRfY


Kind regards,
Xian[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's the style. I got about 2/3 of the way through Drunk Ape.

[elu296]

Do you know name of the practitioner of the interview ?



What is the origin of Alex Tse's monkey/Ape ?



From the discussion there it seems they are more forms than a system is that correct ?

Thanks in advance.


The interview is with Master Qiu from Xin An village (famous Wuzu centre with its own website) and is here at http://www.southerncranekungfu.com/kung-fu-reader/interview-with-master-qiu-five-ancestor-kungfu-english/
There is also a version in Chinese on the web somewhere.

Now that I've re-read it, I see I misremembered. The form structure I actually read about here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2119l13137l0l13277l47l46l7l28l32l0l265l1903 l0.7.4l11l0&safe=active&q=cache:yicEdTEbL9oJ:http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34690&page=4+wuzuquan+18+forms&ct=clnk
from a Chee Kim Thong lineage student. It's the 8th post on this page.

I'm afraid I don't know the origin of Master Tse's monkey/ape. We've exchanged emails, but never met in person. He was away while I was in Hong Kong and I was taught entirely by Master Teddy Lai. You can probably find out if you email him via his Youtube channel.

As for the Singapore lineage, I don't yet know. Most of my info on it comes from Master Eric Ling's web pages. There is an interview with the school's founder here at http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&gbv=2&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2119l13137l0l13277l47l46l7l28l32l0l265l1903 l0.7.4l11l0&safe=active&q=cache:yicEdTEbL9oJ:http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34690&page=4+wuzuquan+18+forms&ct=clnk The pictures are very similar to the techniques I learnt and saw demonstrated in Taiwan.
Master Ling talks about the principles behind the style in depth here at http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/and-who-said-there-is-no-ground-fighting-in-ckf/ and at http://wulin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=48 He mentions having learnt "a form or two" but not how many there are in total. I hope to find out when I get there, but no details yet.

[elu296]

Why is it that Monkey system's never made it as a full major system such as Northern Eagle Claw or Souther Hung Gar or Tebetian White Crane etc etc?

Why is there only Monkey Techniques / Forms in the various systems? Why did these systems absorb Monkey into their curriculums? Was Monkey that awsome that everyone had to put some monkey technique or forms into their curriculums?

There are very few "Pure Monkey" systems out there.... Why is that? These were my original questions at the beginning of this thread.

The Angry Monkey system that I teach does not have a varifiable history. What about Alex Tse, maybe we can get some input from him on his Monkey system.

ginosifu

Only answer I can give is how Master Hisham phrased it. "Monkey is a special skill they don't want to teach to just anybody." You just have to keep searching for teachers.

[bawang]

if you are actually acting like a monkey, its not real monkey boxing.

[elu296]

Here we go. Singapore-lineage southern monkey in action; courtesy of Master Eric Ling. I can see echoes here of what I learnt in Taiwan and what I've seen of Wuzu monkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fbn92jwwNU

[ginosifu]

Forms are nice and can relay a look or "feel" of the Monkey. There is more to Monkey style than just FORMS.

Actual fighting flavor or emphasis is important too. Monkey tactics are suposed to be viscious, tricky, illusive etc etc. Why is it we only see forms on the net? Where all the Savage Monkey techniques at?

ginosifu

[elu296]

[QUOTE=ginosifu
Where all the Savage Monkey techniques at?

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Try this. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:O-DUs79CcLYJ:wulin.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dsouthern%26action%3Ddisplay%26 thread%3D48+eric+ling+%2B+no+mercy+kung+fu&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[elu296]

Additional to my last posts. I've been back in touch with Master Hisham and he has told me (after rightly pointing out that I should have just grown some backbone and asked him directly which style he does a long time ago) that his monkey style is the original Shaolin system; ancient enough that the forms are done standing with your full body weight on your toes. I never saw him do this in person, but have read about it before in descriptions of monkey boxing from Singapore and Malaysia in the 50s and 60s. It's apparently for the same reason ballet dancers do it; gives fantastic mobility. Master Hisham is (as far as I know) the only master in the world still doing it and it's extra impressive given that he's about 80kg+. He's got a video of one of his forms on his facebook page which is under his Chinese name 江玉山 (https://zh-tw.facebook.com/people/江玉山/100008625754104) (Chiang Yu Shan).

[bawang]

monkey boxing means fighting with a concave chest. thats all it is lol.

sry to ruin u guys epic decade search for true monkey simulation

[RenDaHai]

In looking for monkey styles one will also want to look at strategies like 'YeXing Quan' (fist of the nightwalkers) and 'TanMaQuan' (Scouting fist, or Spying fist). These are strategies that are common to many major styles.

For example, I know the 'Monkey' forms in SongShan often have other names as well, as in their name is not actually monkey style, they are just called that because they look very slightly like a monkey. Scouting fist contains all sorts of footwork where you walk on the balls of your feet, which looks a little like a monkey like so its also called monkey fist, it is really just to manouvere quickly, the double empty stance. Nightwalking has strange footwork where you step on your hands or walk on all fours, actually the purpose of this is to walk around at night to avoid detection, walking behind low walls, hedges etc and hoping to be mistaken for an animal if just your silhouette is seen in the dark, hoping to be silent. In times before electricity this was a useful skill if infiltrating at night. This is also nicknamed monkey fist because of the footwork. Then there is RuanJiaChui, Soft frame hammer, this just uses a monkey paw like strike, even though it doens't look particularly monkey-like because of the hand it is also nicknamed monkey fist. None of these imitate monkey, rather monkey is a nickname applied afterwards because of a slight resemblance, but certainly in terms of technique there is a lot of crossover with the specifically monkey styles.

[ghostexorcist]

I just posted this article to my research blog. It explores the association between primates and martial arts in Chinese history.

https://journeytothewestresearch.wordpress.com/2019/06/21/the-connection-between-primates-and-chinese-martial-arts/

Comments are welcome.

[A Joyful Proces]

Hi, I'm part of the Lau Kar Leung's lineage in hung gar, however we also have a monkey system in our family... I simply know the style as Hou Kuen, & don't know the names of any specific sets despite having learnt two of them from my si sook...

I have not been able to establish where the style came from, & have not been able to find any other lineages practicing with similar focus on some of the main moves; specifically the signature move of our Hou Kuen style which is the "yat jeung sei sik" otherwise known as the one palm four styles which can be seen prominently in the films of Lau Kar Leung, specifically "Mad Monkey Kung Fu" & "Drunken Monkey"...

You can see the yat jeung sei sik trained a minute into this clip: https://youtu.be/GOns3dtTEdA?t=57

The forms I have been taught are not exact the same as presented in the movies, & are not acrobatic, bar a roll or so, but have the same tenets when it comes to hand styles & basic stances & of course the one palm four styles...

Another clip is here at approx 2 mins in: https://youtu.be/8q7ekwHl1ZA?t=130 however this is much adapted & performed way more theatrically than I was taught it as a set of more straight forward techniques...

I know that Lau Kar Leung's nephew Lau Kar Yung has been teaching the style at seminars & the like as can be evidenced in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=451dJJ-TBdo


The best I have established is being told second hand that Lau Kar Leung was taught by a practitioner in Macau when he was a young man, but am unable to properly clarify this... I'm wondering if it may even have been his own invention in part... Whilst I'm part of the family in learning the styles I've not been close enough to establish any source...

Love that yat jeung sei sik though & it inexplicably legitimises the technique further for me having it in the dictionary of a set out form rather than just as isolated technique...