Of Crabs and Men

[Mike Patterson]

When I first knew my teacher, he used to talk about what he called "the crab mentality". When I asked him what that was, he said; "Ever see bucket of crab in night market?" I said I had. He said; "Next time you watch awhile. You will see when one tries to get to the top and get out of the bucket, the others will grab him with their claws and pull him back down."

In my day, in the kuoshu tournaments, we fought and we fought hard IN THE RING. But outside, all promoted a spirit of friendship in the arts, through fighting and training. Two of my most treasured posessions still remain as a banner that was given to me by the Taiwanese team that reads "Friendship through martial arts." and a plaque, given to me by the Japanese team that says "In the spirit of brotherhood, we compete."

WHAT has happened to martial virtue in this country? Why all the bickering over useless things? A civilized comparison is the only thing worthwhile in a discussion forum. Since many things "must be shown to be understood" what is the purpose of denigrating other methods or practices through words alone?

I have, three times, tried to participate in such forums and or discussion lists. The first, a xingyi list started by Forest Chang back in the 90's. The second, the early empty flower discussion board (same time I had one on my own site also). The third, THIS forum.

Always the same thing as I first stated when I got involved a few weeks back. Not much reason to post. The threads always derail and devolve into something that is either irrational chest thumping, a "look down my nose at what you do because you don't think like me" mentality, a clown trying to be cute, or two clowns airing past grievances. What a waste of time in most cases. Where it COULD be SO much better if people would just extend a little, and I don't ask for much, but a LITTLE martial spirit.

Too bad. Many could learn alot if properly handled I think. But I do understand the difficulty of where to draw the line between "free speech" and "abusive behaviour" in terms of moderation. It's a very tough call sometimes and I ceased wanting to to that which is why I abandoned my own discussoin forum about a year after it came into being. Too much B.S. and not enough productive discussion.

If discussion were discussion.. put up a clip and then talk about what you see and think. Then let others do the same. All sides may learn from that. But put up a clip and say "give me a break" or some other similar comment having no merit for discussion and what's the value?

Hat's off to the mods for doing what they do as it's not easy. But is surely would be nice if everyone could just extend that little bit of martial spirit.

[Minghequan]

Well said!

[lkfmdc]

That was an excellent post

I think that one issue is that today, we are challenging old ways of thinking. And for many, martial arts is like religion

Some people can discuss it like adults, others think to even discuss it is "sacriligious"

My personal take, those that really know have always been more open to discussions. Those with a limited exposure have a similarly limited view

Be well all

[wenshu]

How is superciliously pontificating about what is and isn't civilized and productive any different? You're banging on your chest just as hard as everyone else. Apparently you are just a little less self aware while you do it.

So any opinion that is divergent from yours or that is expressed in a manner that offends your arbitrary, apparently delicate sense of martial spirit = uncivilized and unproductive.

It's the internet, people like to talk **** and joke around. So what? Instead of stroking your own ego (don't you get enough of that around here already?) by being dismissive and passive aggressively calling people clowns maybe drop the self seriousness and look for the small pockets of informative, erudite and interesting discussion?

Perhaps we can start here (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108960#post1108960); with the discussion about how modern interpretations of wu de are actually just a *******ized form of Neo-Confucianism and original recipe wu de is about eating the still beating heart of your opponent on the battlefield while his wife and kids watch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think that a big part of it has to do with the fact that this is a forum of the written word, that is trying to discuss things that must be seen, and felt.

On the internal external topic for instance, I have tried dozens of times over the years to provide a simple, clear, and easy distinction between internal, and external martial arts.

Ultimately, I think the medium of exchange is what is preventing people from getting what I am talking about. When ever I explain this live and in person to people, they get what I am saying right away, because they can put thier hands on my stomach and back and feel what is going on.

You just can't do that here.

[lkfmdc]

I think he was talking about Ray saying "I know you never really fought and if you did it was just push hands" BS....


How is superciliously pontificating about what is and isn't civilized and productive any different? You're banging on your chest just as hard as everyone else. Apparently you are just a little less self aware while you do it.

So any opinion that is divergent from yours or that is expressed in a manner that offends your arbitrary, apparently delicate sense of martial spirit = uncivilized and unproductive.

It's the internet, people like to talk **** and joke around. So what? Instead of stroking your own ego (don't you get enough of that around here already?) by being dismissive and passive aggressively calling people clowns maybe drop the self seriousness and look for the small pockets of informative, erudite and interesting discussion?

Perhaps we can start here (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108960#post1108960); with the discussion about how modern interpretations of wu de are actually just a *******ized form of Neo-Confucianism and original recipe wu de is about eating the still beating heart of your opponent on the battlefield while his wife and kids watch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think he was talking about Ray saying "I know you never really fought and if you did it was just push hands" BS....

Yeah, that was crossing the line quite a bit. Doing that to me is one thing, but Mike Patterson has been there, done that, walked the path AND wrote the book.

When Ray can take sledge hammers to the chest, he might have a bit of talking room.

When Mike Patterson enters the room, it really IS the time to shut up and listen.

[Lucas]

My personal experience here, for what its worth, is that you often have to apply the old lotus in the muck analogy. I do my fair share of joking and acting silly, but I refrain from outright bickering, as I dont see any value in it.

My teacher put it well the other day, he said 'its all a matter of perception' using a rollercoaster as an analogy; on the ride one person may say how much they dislike the coaster and they want it to stop, while right behind them someone is having the best time ever. But it is the same ride.

On this ride, I try to glean what I can, laugh when its funny, shut up and admit when I've erred, and ignore what i find unproductive or not funny

[wenshu]

On this ride, I try to glean what I can, laugh when its funny, shut up and admit when I've erred, and ignore what i find unproductive or not funny

This Be Wisdom.

[bawang]

when i try to talk about serious kung fu people find it boring and no one answer. so i talk about penuses.


like that thread about traditional nine levels of ranking, where you could not only be promoted but also DEmoted, had 1 reply. that is some really important sh1t, you can easily apply this in a modern context. but no. people want to promote their dvds or talk about compressing the spine.

[Dragonzbane76]

internet=lack of emotional perception. (tone)

Body language makes up most communication. And we are talking about a subject that cannot be expressed unless felt or seen. Yes you can pick up some books and read about it or have someone describe something you can relate to but most times it gets lost in translation. I enjoy comparing things but I don't get hung up on the finer points, most times it's something I have experienced but have differing terminology for.

Thing is all these discussions should be taken with a grain of salt. It's words and words are wind. I've had my share of arguing but most of the arguments I ended up in were with people that had no communication skills what so ever and tried to pound judgements out. I finally decided it really doesn't matter.

I think you are right Mr. patterson. extending an open hand works better than a slap in the face. :)

[YouKnowWho]

WHAT has happened to martial virtue in this country?
My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin had asked me, "Why do you get involved with internet discussion? What can you do if people said something bad about you?" He was right. There is nothing that I can do if I don't know who that person is and where that person lives.

The problem is on most internet discussion forum, if you try to share your personal experience, people will say that you are bragging about yourself. If you don't, people will look down on you, treat you as a beginner, and ignore your posts. It's a lose-lose situation.

My teacher had involved with Shanghai newspaper debating before. People criticized him to compete in tournaments in his 40th and not giving the new generation any chance. If my teacher didn't compete in his 40th, the newspaper could still say that he was afraid of losing and that was why he didn't compete. Again, it's a lose-lose situation.

Many times I had finished my post and then deleted it right way.

- Am I bragging about myself?
- Do I try to shove my opinion into someone's throat?
- Will my post upset someone?
- Do I give people a chance to attack me?
- Do I try to share information to those who won't appreciate it in the 1st place?
- Am I too generalized in my statement?

It's very difficult to have any post that doesn't have any issue as described above.

[Minghequan]

like that thread about traditional nine levels of ranking, where you could not only be promoted but also DEmoted, had 1 reply. that is some really important sh1t, you can easily apply this in a modern context. but no. people want to promote their dvds or talk about compressing the spine.

Hey Bawang,

Can you post a link to that discussion regarding the nine levels? I'm interested!

[MightyB]

I hope you don't take too many of the posts on the forum too seriously. Yes there can be a lot of chest thumping, but there are also a lot of good debates and interesting points of view that are brought to light through some of the more "spirited" threads. I know that you've brought a lot of good insight to this forum from your experience and I'd hate to see you stop posting.

----

To Master Wang-

I think everyone that's a regular poster knows and respects you and NOBODY on here questions your experience or knowledge. And if they do, just show them that vid where you're using your leg to suspend yourself on that pole and challenge them to try. ;)

[Jimbo]

When I post, I try to write as I would generally speak to someone in person. Meaning I do my best to be polite. If anything, when I post, I'm more polite and formal than in person. That may not be as interesting or funny, but that's okay. I learned some time ago that my sense of humor does not translate well into the written word, anyway. That does not mean that humor has no place here, though, and some people's posts have made me lol and put me in a better mood.

It's very important for me to be consistent with who I really am when I post online. That means no juvenile sniping at other people. How many people who snipe online would actually do that to the person if brought face-to-face? Probably very few. I have not invested the blood, sweat, years of my life and, yes, $$ to do what I love, in order to be drawn into protracted arguments with other people. Many MAists love to put down other MAists; it's almost a knee-jerk reaction for some. I engaged in some of that when I was younger, but have grown since then. If you're around long enough, time and life itself can and will humble you. A MAist should mature not only in skill, technique, insight/experience, etc., but also in how they treat others.

Having said that, there are plenty of real nuggets to be found in the mud.

[Lee Chiang Po]

when i try to talk about serious kung fu people find it boring and no one answer. so i talk about penuses.


like that thread about traditional nine levels of ranking, where you could not only be promoted but also DEmoted, had 1 reply. that is some really important sh1t, you can easily apply this in a modern context. but no. people want to promote their dvds or talk about compressing the spine.

When I was learning Jiujitsu, We had a rather strange belting system. We had the white belt, and seven levels of black belt. You started with a white belt, went all the way until you got your first level of black belt, then you would dye a 7th of your belt black. Each time you were promoted, you got to dye another 7th of the belt. You had a period of time to hold that and if anyone were to contest it, you would have to test again and pass again. You were graded on attitude, personal integrity, several other factors other than your mastery of the system.
bawang, I have noticed that you can be very serious at times, and I feel that you know a great deal about this stuff. More than what shows most times. I think the reason most people don't engage you in discussion is that they think you are just setting them up for something. But, I for one like when you post seriously.

[RWilson]

This thread is lame. The original poster gets bent out of shape more than most.
You guys want to know why there is no martial spirit hugging on forums? Because martial arts is about physically interacting with another person. Forums are for words.

[PalmStriker]

How is superciliously pontificating about what is and isn't civilized and productive any different? You're banging on your chest just as hard as everyone else. Apparently you are just a little less self aware while you do it.

So any opinion that is divergent from yours or that is expressed in a manner that offends your arbitrary, apparently delicate sense of martial spirit = uncivilized and unproductive.

It's the internet, people like to talk **** and joke around. So what? Instead of stroking your own ego (don't you get enough of that around here already?) by being dismissive and passive aggressively calling people clowns maybe drop the self seriousness and look for the small pockets of informative, erudite and interesting discussion?

Perhaps we can start here (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108960#post1108960); with the discussion about how modern interpretations of wu de are actually just a *******ized form of Neo-Confucianism and original recipe wu de is about eating the still beating heart of your opponent on the battlefield while his wife and kids watch.

Well said, though a bit barbarous. :)

[RWilson]

All you have to do is mention the name Mike Patterson and he is guaranteed to respond as has been the case since that thread about his fighters looking like regular kickboxers was put up.


I made a reference to Fu hu gong being from judo and he got all defensive. Tim Cartmell was interviewed in the book, "Nejia Chuan" as well as Ray's teacher, David Chan Bond. Mr. Cartmell again stated that the Fu hu gong were mostly taken from judo. I only bring this up because I know I am right and Mr. Patterson will get bent out of shape all over again saying that hsing I is a complete art. Whatever.

Mr Cartmell is the real deal which is one of the reasons I believe him over Mike Patterson. Tim Cartmell still competes and has actual footage of himself. He does not claim fame from a tournament in Taiwan so long ago there were no cameras.

What I have learned from this forum is that individual footage does not matter. All a guy has to do it talk about how well his students are doing and everyone goes, "Yeah, he must be good". You can be a total fat bag, make money, have no footage, trained with a dead chinese guy, and be considered knowledgeable.

[Yum Cha]

Ok, how about this, nobody gets a free pass.

You speak your mind, put it out there and take what comes. If you are good and have something to offer, it will stand on its own. If you are trying to ride on reputation, sorry, good luck but don't overestimate the extent of your reputation, earned or not. This board is riddled with 30 and 40 year students with lifetimes of study, and teenage wanna bees with 2 or 3 books worth of experience.

Fighters fight, honour and respect are earned. This isn't a lecture hall or training hall, its a bloody bar or overcrowded tea house...

I've found over the years, if you treat people with respect and have an open mind, you get very little drama. Ignore a pest and they go away.

No need to get the undies in a bundle, it just doesn't pay off...

[omarthefish]

Mr Cartmell is the real deal which is one of the reasons I believe him over Mike Patterson. Tim Cartmell still competes and has actual footage of himself. He does not claim fame from a tournament in Taiwan so long ago there were no cameras.

Your choice of Tim Cartmell as a point of comaparison is intensely ironic.

Do you have no idea of the backgrounds of the two men whatsoever?

[Ray Pina]

One man's "I've made it out of the bucket even though everyone is trying to drag me down" is another man's "That stinks. Close the door. Who would be foolish enough to eat that?"

As far as brotherhood: I've had close training partners and I've had little politicos with no talent that gossip to the teacher, etc. I now work with three area MMA gyms that cooperate. And that's mostly because this is a small island working for the sport more than for any individual school/person right now. I've also seen schools friendly on the surface and then malicious to each other behind their backs.... but generally, TMA is very political and the fighting world isn't pretty.

[David Jamieson]

I think extension of courtesy is what is being talked about.

It's not chest pounding to point out that there are juvenile idiots running around being ass hats. That is not a conflict of views, that is one gent pointing out that there are indeed clowns in here.

And there are, heck, I've acted like one myself on a few occasions to add some levity etc.

The whole reason I asked to be a mod again is because there was a definite breakdown of simple decorum here. Some of you guys may be alright with that, but I'm not and I'm the mod and that's that. :mad: :D

seriously. me and a couple of others and the powers that be here would very much like at the very least a modicum of decorum and some restraint on behalf of the posters here.

belligerent a-holes will be removed and persistent badgers will be routed out and banned.

It takes time and effort, like anything worthwhile.

[lkfmdc]

I think extension of courtesy is what is being talked about.



I think it is even more basic than that. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH SOMETHING, explain WHY, build a logical argument and provide EVIDENCE

When all you can do is resort to schoolyard BS, it is proof positive you are wrong




It's not chest pounding to point out that there are juvenile idiots running around being ass hats.



There are also well established sifu in our community that engage in the "crab in the bucket" thing and there is nothing wrong with discussing this




belligerent a-holes will be removed and persistent badgers will be routed out and banned.



lord knows I don't like you, but you've done a good job so far

[Ray Pina]

Mr Cartmell is the real deal which is one of the reasons I believe him over Mike Patterson. Tim Cartmell still competes and has actual footage of himself. He does not claim fame from a tournament in Taiwan so long ago there were no cameras.

What I have learned from this forum is that individual footage does not matter. All a guy has to do it talk about how well his students are doing and everyone goes, "Yeah, he must be good". You can be a total fat bag, make money, have no footage, trained with a dead chinese guy, and be considered knowledgeable.

Very true.

If you notice, some of the fat bags with no footage use the word "we." Guys like Cartmell have the honor of saying "I".

This forum is the example of why TCMA is crap. The loudest mouths which get the most respect and have the forum running to their rescue, locking threads after they get the last word: They've done nothing! I have zero respect for them as martial artists! They're the worst type! Mouth boxers! They're not fit to carry my 0-5 jock strap.

And Ross. I'll be in NYC for Thanksgiving if you want to show me what YOU can do. You and me.

[Ray Pina]

I think it is even more basic than that. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH SOMETHING, explain WHY, build a logical argument and provide EVIDENCE

When all you can do is resort to schoolyard BS, it is proof positive you are wrong




No!

This is martial arts. You shut the f%ck up and you go fight.

You don't start quoting text. You don't start breaking down old footage. And you don't send someone else.

[lkfmdc]

And Ross. I'll be in NYC for Thanksgiving if you want to show me what YOU can do. You and me.

Ray, you are a complete joke so my only answer to you is that I have no time for jokes.

Ray, you need to stop smoking weed and get your life together.

You are not a master of E Chuan, you are not a world class surfer. You aren't even a fighter. You talk about big mouths but you are the BIGGEST. The "master" who gave up when facing an 18 year old kid with 6 months training

A guy with 1 year kickboxing training destroyed you and you had to cook up some conspiracy theory to explain it :rolleyes:

Your "claim to fame" is going to throwdowns and going 100% on unsuspecting guys with no training.

Your brain has gone rotten from all the drugs man, you couldn't even grasp that MAY 2006 is AFTER december 2005 :rolleyes:

Get some help man, really

[lkfmdc]

This is martial arts. You shut the f%ck up and you go fight.



YOU went to fight, lost to an 18 year old kid with 6 months training, and never shut up about it :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

You are incapable of grasping it, but Sanjuro gave you excellent advice

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1132939&postcount=258




Dude, stop it, you are embarassing yourself

[Snipsky]

Your "claim to fame" is going to throwdowns and going 100% on unsuspecting guys with no training.

I did notice that in the videos he links himself to. i saw guys were were unaware they were about to go all out. :cool:

[David Jamieson]

guys, take your personal beefs to PM. (Dave and Ray)

NO running gunfights across the forum.

that is all.

[lkfmdc]

guys, take your personal beefs to PM. (Dave and Ray)

NO running gunfights across the forum.

that is all.

He wants to keep going at it, I'm just answering him

I actually think you should leave it be, it's an EXCELLENT example of the crab thing, in this case, the very bottom crab in the barrel

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have been on MA forums for many years, as have most here.
I have had the previlage of being a mod or admin on a few, including perhaps the most notorious, Bullshido.
I used to "walk the walk and talk the talk", but I no longer "walk the walk" since I have retired from competing and training in a school and have decided to just do "my own thing".
I no longer take students and haven't made my mind up as to whether I ever will.
I had an "above average" competive record in Boxing, MT, Judo and kyokushin and even competed in Vale Tudo matches.
All that means very little now.
It is the past, ancient history really, all done in the 80's and 90's.
Since coming to this forum I have realised that the disease of "myopia" that effects MA is not unique to TJMA or TKMA or TCMA, it is unique to a certain TYPE of person IN THOSE MA.
And that person exists in modern sports systems too.
I don't like that person BUT I have grown to understand WHY that person exists and what purpose that person serves.
And the only way that "all may know him to be mad" is for that person to have a place from which to speak.

I don't much like the rudeness and arrogance of some posters BUT I understand why they are the way they are, call it the fanatcisim of the convert or the zeal of the Zealot, doesn't matter.

Being a mod here has been a rather thankless job and continues to be so.

I love MA, I have been in MA for almost all my life, for 33 years I have bleed and suffered to be the best MA I could be and I want to share that with others because I NEVER HAD THAT and want to give freely what took so much pain to learn.

I suspect Shifu Patterson feels the same way and to want to give freely what we paid a price for and be insulted and questioned...well....need I say more?

[wenshu]

I think extension of courtesy is what is being talked about.

It's not chest pounding to point out that there are juvenile idiots running around being ass hats. That is not a conflict of views, that is one gent pointing out that there are indeed clowns in here.

And there are, heck, I've acted like one myself on a few occasions to add some levity etc.

The whole reason I asked to be a mod again is because there was a definite breakdown of simple decorum here. Some of you guys may be alright with that, but I'm not and I'm the mod and that's that. :mad: :D

seriously. me and a couple of others and the powers that be here would very much like at the very least a modicum of decorum and some restraint on behalf of the posters here.

belligerent a-holes will be removed and persistent badgers will be routed out and banned.

It takes time and effort, like anything worthwhile.

I think we should take care not to equate courtesy and decorum with deferential obsequiousness; just because someone has a strong opinion and argues it in a vigorous manner, even if that opinion or the manner in which they choose to argue it is abhorrent to you does not automatically mean they are being discourteous or lack decorum.

People have opinions, they like to argue about their opinions, people have opinions about other people's opinions, they like to argue about those too. People especially like to have opinions about themselves so on and so forth.

There is nothing wrong with being a pompous, supercilious jerk, it's when someone tries to project themselves as stationed above it all when in fact they are rolling in the mud along with everybody else that it becomes hypocrisy.

[lkfmdc]

I think we should take care not to equate courtesy and decorum with deferential obsequiousness; just because someone has a strong opinion and argues it in a vigorous manner, even if that opinion or the manner in which they choose to argue it is abhorrent to you does not automatically mean they are being discourteous or lack decorum.

People have opinions, they like to argue about their opinions, people have opinions about other people's opinions, they like to argue about those too. People especially like to have opinions about themselves so on and so forth.

There is nothing wrong with being a pompous, supercilious jerk, it's when someone tries to project themselves as stationed above it all when in fact they are rolling in the mud along with everybody else that it becomes hypocrisy.

when you were a kid, did you volunteer to be hall monitor? ;)

[MightyB]

I think we should take care not to equate courtesy and decorum with deferential obsequiousness; just because someone has a strong opinion and argues it in a vigorous manner, even if that opinion or the manner in which they choose to argue it is abhorrent to you does not automatically mean they are being discourteous or lack decorum.

People have opinions, they like to argue about their opinions, people have opinions about other people's opinions, they like to argue about those too. People especially like to have opinions about themselves so on and so forth.

There is nothing wrong with being a pompous, supercilious jerk, it's when someone tries to project themselves as stationed above it all when in fact they are rolling in the mud along with everybody else that it becomes hypocrisy.

I like words. :o

[wenshu]

when you were a kid, did you volunteer to be hall monitor? ;)

Nah, I mostly just cut class to avoid getting beat up all the time.

I thought Jamieson was the hall monitor. I am the know it all always raising his hand in the back of the class who even the teacher is sick of.

[wenshu]

I like words. :o

I have an opinion about that.

[lkfmdc]

Nah, I mostly just cut class to avoid getting beat up all the time.

I am the know it all always raising his hand in the back of the class who even the teacher is sick of.

have you met taaigihkyan :D

[omarthefish]

Mr Cartmell is the real deal which is one of the reasons I believe him over Mike Patterson. Tim Cartmell still competes and has actual footage of himself. He does not claim fame from a tournament in Taiwan so long ago there were no cameras.

What I have learned from this forum is that individual footage does not matter. All a guy has to do it talk about how well his students are doing and everyone goes, "Yeah, he must be good". You can be a total fat bag, make money, have no footage, trained with a dead chinese guy, and be considered knowledgeable.


Very true.

If you notice, some of the fat bags with no footage use the word "we." Guys like Cartmell have the honor of saying "I".

Back on the last page I alluded to this but no one picked it up so now let me be explicit on why both of you are mentally disabled.

Those tournaments that there was supposedly no video of from Patterson's time. .. get a clue@!@ There's no extant video of Cartmell in those things either. All you have is his much more recent BJJ exploits. As far as stand up goes, there is exactly the same amount of evidence for either of them. Futhermore, they both competed in the same arena. I don't know how the years line up but Tim Cartmell learned his standup from Luo Dexiu, one of the top IMA fighters in Taiwan. Mike Patterson learned from Hung Yi-Xiang, another one of the top fighters. They were both in Taiwan fighting in the same sort of tournaments at roughly the same time.

So why is one guys experience "verified" and the other just "chest thumping"?

When it comes to CMA fighting history, you guys are some seriously ignorant schmucks.

[Ray Pina]

You are not a master of E Chuan, you are not a world class surfer. You aren't even a fighter. You talk about big mouths but you are the BIGGEST. The "master" who gave up when facing an 18 year old kid with 6 months training

I claim to be a master of nothing. I've learned very little E-chuan compared to what was available.

However, you're lying: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/E0844595951100EA/John-Salgado/

That's the record of your man I fought. He already had two MMA fights before me.

Why would you pair him up with a newbie to the sport? A TCMA guy with his first MMA fight?

Why would you advertise that you'd send someone to fight with 6 months training?

[lkfmdc]

Stop smoking weed for a minute and try to pay attention Ray

The FIRST san da match you had you fought an 18 year old kid with 6 months training from PMA and after one round YOU GAVE UP

Before that match you were calling yourself an e chuan sifu!

The second san da match you had you fought Stephan Cloud, who had one year of savate training and NO FIGHTS, he TKO'ed you!

The fact he had an AMATEUR MATCH in MMA six months later has nothing to do with the fact he beat you

You were 0-3 by the time you fought salgado. And let's all remind the world YET AGAIN that you tapped before he even applied a choke

[Ray Pina]

I;ve said what I've had to say. I wont interfere with this or any other thread. Nobody wants to hear what I have to say and it doesn't matter to anyone anyway.

However, you have insulted me publicly. You should at least have the honor and courage to take your beating like a man.

I will be up in NYC next month. Think about it.

I do want to beat some respect into you. Can we agree on a time? It can be your place, I only ask for no funny business. You vs me. I'll come to our gym. I'll fight with or without gloves. Your choice.

But honor your master. You opened your mouth. Now be man enough to back it up.

[lkfmdc]

Why would you pair him up with a newbie to the sport? A TCMA guy with his first MMA fight?



It was Ed Hsu's event and HE made the matches. All we did was agree, with a chuckle and a smile because we knew it was an easy match, it turned out even easier than we could have imagined because you tapped before he even put the choke on!

Notice how every loss is some sort of conspiracy against RAY? The world is against him!



Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. Historically, this characterization was used to describe any delusional state.

[lkfmdc]

However, you have insulted me publicly.



you want to know who "insulted" you? take a look in the mirror!

Sanjuro already told you that you were embarassing yourself

I have no time for your comedy act, if you want to believe you are the master of internal kung fu and a deadly internal arts fighter FINE I could care less

[RWilson]

No!

This is martial arts. You shut the f%ck up and you go fight.

You don't start quoting text. You don't start breaking down old footage. And you don't send someone else.

He did fight, Ray. Ross had a san da fight where in the first minute he got punched once and just fell over. Fight over.

It was very entertaining footage put up by a guy he was having beef with. Now that famous one punch one minute fight footage is gone for good.

[RWilson]

Your choice of Tim Cartmell as a point of comaparison is intensely ironic.

Do you have no idea of the backgrounds of the two men whatsoever?

Same starting place but different roads. One does mma and fights. The other does pi Chuan for 2 hours every day to stay thin.

[lkfmdc]

done with you Ray




However, you have insulted me publicly.



you want to know who "insulted" you? take a look in the mirror!

Sanjuro already told you that you were embarassing yourself

I have no time for your comedy act, if you want to believe you are the master of internal kung fu and a deadly internal arts fighter FINE I could care less

[Ray Pina]

I don't believe I'm an internal master.... I believe my training is good enough to whip you, whatever the hell it is that you're doing.

Stop talking. And fight me.

[RWilson]

done with you Ray



you want to know who "insulted" you? take a look in the mirror!

Sanjuro already told you that you were embarassing yourself

I have no time for your comedy act, if you want to believe you are the master of internal kung fu and a deadly internal arts fighter FINE I could care less

Translation: I am afraid to fight.

[RWilson]

I don't believe I'm an internal master.... I believe my training is good enough to whip you, whatever the hell it is that you're doing.

Stop talking. And fight me.

It is not worth it, Ray. He will probably sue you. And he'll be surrounded by all his guys.

Ross, can you please explain to us how a great disciple such as you did so badly in that san da fight? And you continually make fun of Chan Hok Fu's fight. A hundred years from now they will be making fun of your fight too. Karma.

[lkfmdc]

Translation: I am afraid to fight.

if that's what you want to believe, great!

As for ray directly, I already told you three times, I have zero interest in you. If you want to believe all the things you've posted in these threads, that's up to you

You can be content believing I'm just a big sell out and a fake with a big old McDojo

Now I'm off to count my ill gotten money, so have a swell day

[GeneChing]

You will see when one tries to get to the top and get out of the bucket, the others will grab him with their claws and pull him back down.
Take the fights outside. After school. Behind the bleachers. Not here in the classroom, please, or we'll have to ban you both.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ray, Wilson and Ross.
That's enough.
Period.

[GeneChing]

lkfmdc just asked to be banned for a month. As you all know, I always honor self-made requests to be banned.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lkfmdc just asked to be banned for a month. As you all know, I always honor self-made requests to be banned.

Understandable.
Sometimes this forum sucks the life out of you.

[GeneChing]

I respect that.

As for suckage, remember, Lucy invites Dracula and Bella invites Edward. Not that lkfmdc is anything like Lucy or Bella...:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I respect that.

As for suckage, remember, Lucy invites Dracula and Bella invites Edward. Not that lkfmdc is anything like Lucy or Bella...:rolleyes:

Yeah, but Lucy was a hot redhead and Bella..well...she's no Lucy !!

[Hebrew Hammer]

LOL what a train wreck!!! Internet badasses....always impressive. Sifu Patterson's noble undertaking crushed in just a few hours. I knew the trolls would come out in force. What you seek probably doesn't exist in an open internet forum...especially as open as this one is. There are very few humble enough to be seekers of knowledge, admitting you don't know it all is CLEARLY a sign of weakness, God forbid if you don't have youtube video of you expertly demonstrating perfect form defeating a pluthera of UFC champions...you will be exposed as a fraud.

Why can't it be about the journey? The love of martial arts, the desire to improve yourself, even it means getting your fat ass off the couch twice a week to break a sweat, celebrate the warrior heritage, take your frustrations or not out on a heavy bag? Have a few laughs with friends?

For me, I'd love to learn more about the many styles of Kung Fu, Chi Kung, the Internal stuff, the philosophical, spiritual, chi, and the meditative. You rarely can have those kinds of discussions on here without it degenerating petty squabbling. I don't get this crap about lineage, having the ultimate undefeatable style...who cares?

I do enjoy the discussions on Martial Media here, Bawang's command of the English language and inappropriate comments, Sanjuro's collection of demi-porn, MK's youtube selections, pics of Gene's Mullet, and the occasional break out of new knowledge and intelligent consultation.

[Ray Pina]

You can be content believing I'm just a big sell out and a fake with a big old McDojo

Now I'm off to count my ill gotten money, so have a swell day

I've never accused you of being a sell out. I see footage from your gym and I see your guys fight and I can only applaud it.

My issue with you is the same as any other form collector who speaks out against a fighter, with a winning record or not..... If I had a loosing chess record and you said similar things I'd want to play you in chess. A man confident in his game would play me real quick and make his point.

[Hebrew Hammer]

My issue with you is the same as any other form collector who speaks out against a fighter, with a winning record or not..... If I had a loosing chess record and you said similar things I'd want to play you in chess. A man confident in his game would play me real quick and make his point.

Now you may be on to something...perhaps a full contact chess match? The loser has to take a shot to the groin.

[wenshu]

So much for making a case for the value of needlessly belittling and harboring resentment towards each other. Way to prove me wrong guys. Jeez.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is really not about Ross or Ray or even Shifu Patterson and what he did and how he did it.
It is far bigger than that.
This is symptomatic of myopic MA training that is so limited to what is done under A) and is never exposed to B) that it creates a limited and warped sense of reality.

Many of us that HAVE seen BOTH sides try to fight this but it truly does seem at time to be a losing battle.

I couldn't care less if Ross can fight or ever could fight, His school produces fighters and that means SOMETHING, far more than if he could fight.

I've seen enough fighters that couldn't pass on that ability and knowledge to others to know that HOW GOOD a fighter a teacher is as important as how good an athlete they are ( somewhat important but not directly related to teaching skill).

It makes NO DIFFERENCE how good a fighter someone is in a given style, what makes a difference is IF THAT STYLE/SCHOOL/GYM produces good fighters on a consistent basis.

[Hebrew Hammer]

It makes NO DIFFERENCE how good a fighter someone is in a given style, what makes a difference is IF THAT STYLE/SCHOOL/GYM produces good fighters on a consistent basis.

So SR, this is only about legitimacy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So SR, this is only about legitimacy?

Not of "lineage" but of qualifications and experience it seems.
How many times have we heard the comment voiced in oppostion being this:
You have net seen the authentic TCMA?
Or the authentic IMA?
Your fights were VS inferior opponents?
Who have you fought?
Etc, etc.

It seems to be like this:
A) Real IMA exists, I have seen them.
B) So have I, they are nothing special and I have seen the same things in EMA
A) You have not expereinced the real IMA
B) *runs down list of impressive credentials and experience*
A) You have never seen the real IMA
B) Ok fine, show me.
A) I don't have time for this.
or
A posts a video or example that THEY see as IMA but no one else seems to see it and they counter with:
A) You don't knwo what to look for to see the real IMA
B) Show us what to look for
A) I did, I posted the video.

Circular reasoning at its best.

[bawang]

since david ross left the forum, i have lost the will to live.

[David Jamieson]

since david ross left the forum, i have lost the will to live.

I think there's a twilight analogy for that.

Gene?

[GeneChing]

pics of Gene's Mullet Remember TCKFMCIII (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=977)?


Now you may be on to something...perhaps a full contact chess match? The loser has to take a shot to the groin. Remember Chessboxing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39534)?

:cool:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think Gene should unbann Ross, just to mess with his head.

[bawang]

where are the crabs? i was promised there would be crabs. i demand crabs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/11/13/128710436881716156.jpg

[bawang]

i think the crab is a very powerful animal. it is covered in indesctructible chitin armor, and has powerful pincers that can both tear and decapitate. the crab is truly the ultimate life form. maybe one day, they will become sentient and live among us as equals.

[TenTigers]

where are the crabs? i was promised there would be crabs. i demand crabs.
be careful what you wish for. They itch like the ****ens! Then you have to shave your pubies.
-or so I've heard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think the crab is a very powerful animal. it is covered in indesctructible chitin armor, and has powerful pincers that can both tear and decapitate. the crab is truly the ultimate life form. maybe one day, they will become sentient and live among us as equals.

Mantis Shrimp.
Now there is a one-punch killer.

[David Jamieson]

be careful what you wish for. They itch like the ****ens! Then you have to shave your pubies.
-or so I've heard.

...actually..the way it is done is that you shave only half of them off then light what's left on fire and when the crabs come running out of the blazing pube fire, you smash them with a hammer.

way more effective than kwellada.

[bawang]

the mantis shrimp cant grabble. the crab can both strike and grabble, it is truly the complete figter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the mantis shrimp cant grabble. the crab can both strike and grabble, it is truly the complete figter.

You have never seen the real and authentic Mantis Shrimp.

[bawang]

you should call your kung fu mantis shrimp style. i would pay 50 dollar for dvd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you should call your kung fu mantis shrimp style. i would pay 50 dollar for dvd.

If this is a short joke, the only DVD you get is "Pakistani Chunky asses: uncensored and unshaved !"

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WntPPwTjUlg/SjlG46cOWnI/AAAAAAAADQQ/0mQE6I75OxM/s512/mantis-shrimp-791419.jpg

[Hebrew Hammer]

Remember Chessboxing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39534)?

:cool:

How Renaissance-sian! (Is that a word?) Actually I do remember that vid, that is a true test of internal power. It must have inspired me subconsciously. I wish they would do that with my nerd brothers and sisters on PPV.

And I do know you got rid of the mullet, I think I was just never got over seeing one on an Asian. Narrow minded of me, I know. It has the same shock effect on as when I meet an Asian with a Southern accent...it just doesn't seem right at all.

[pateticorecords]

whao... I don't come into the forum for a day and the miss all the fun:)

[GeneChing]

whao... I don't come into the forum for a day and the miss all the fun:)
Such drama! :rolleyes:

Crab Fu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ClfxP2dPY)
www.crabfu.com (http://www.crabfu.com/)

[Taixuquan99]

I think rudeness is rudeness. If one acts rudely and complains about being called on it, its a bot whiny. If someone, an adult, is entertaining themselves at the expense of others, they're pretty much behaving like a sociopath.

The lamest is when someone comes out of the woodwork because someone is arguing with someone they don't like.

All the "diamond in the rough" analogies don't hold well when most of the best contributions seem to come from the same somewhat reasonable people, during lucid periods.

Internal. I said it.

[Lucas]

I do internal all the time, and she loves it!!

[hskwarrior]

I do internal all the time, and she loves it!!

Thats not what she told ME!!!!!!!

[Lucas]

thats because i taught her to lie!

[bawang]

stop derailing the thread or i will ask gene to ban you.

this thread is about crabs. and men.

i think crab is obviously the ultimate step in evolution, being endowed with an armored exoskeleton, which is badass. men are soft and weak. the crab is strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uq9pp586AE

[Lucas]

crab ok but they have to run sideways. i can crab walk, tiger walk, bear crawl, and many more, so crab is limited, maybe not so good in a fight, just crab walk all day long. ya ok they can decapitate stuff but maybe a lobster would win in a real fight cuz they have bigger claws right man?

maybe if the crab can learn to human walk then i give him the edge, but for now i give the edge to a man cuz we can put on armor and crab walk too. we can even decapitate with lots of tools.

[GeneChing]

Care to volunteer?


stop derailing the thread or i will ask gene to ban you.

this thread is about crabs. and men.

What makes you think Lucas and hskwarrior aren't talking about crabs and men? :eek:

[Lucas]

well sometimes they can be crabby ya. good point gene. you are da masta

[wenshu]

I think rudeness is rudeness. If one acts rudely and complains about being called on it, its a bot whiny. If someone, an adult, is entertaining themselves at the expense of others, they're pretty much behaving like a sociopath.


*****ing about pettiness is just adding to the pettiness. Which is fine, but I am not going to pretend it's noble. (I have to concede that *****ing about hypocrisy is just as petty).

[wenshu]

@6:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YvnNM9592s

Guess who? The Crabs!

You're pubes we'll grab,

we wait on bed sheets,

and toliet seats,

then pinch your nuts,

with our feet!

The Crabs!

[hskwarrior]

stop derailing the thread or i will ask gene to ban you.

this thread is about crabs. and men.

i think crab is obviously the ultimate step in evolution, being endowed with an armored exoskeleton, which is badass. men are soft and weak. the crab is strong.

He IS talking aboot crabs and me. men can get crabbies from de ladeeze.......

Creepy critters crawling around your apple fritter

[GeneChing]

Because this forum is only about keeping bawang happy. :rolleyes:

Know your crabs

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1219612514780&id=85ef4e04f539166159d467d0ffef6b43
Dungeoness Crab

http://spongebob-plankton.tripod.com/Mr_krabs_eugene.jpg
Krusty Krab

http://cdn.thefrisky.com/images/uploads/STD_pubic-louse.jpg
Itchy Crab

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1104/that-crab-dinner-crab-dinner-mobile-suit-demotivational-posters-1302137601.jpg
Kung Fu Crab

[omarthefish]

Same starting place but different roads. One does mma and fights. The other does pi Chuan for 2 hours every day to stay thin.
Thanks for erasing any lingering doubts about your mental handicap.


One does mma and fights.
Actually, he does BJJ. He teaches MMA but I have not been able to turn up an actual MMA record for Tim.


The other does pi Chuan for 2 hours every day to stay thin.
Illiterate much? Go back and read what he actually said. I can't be bothered to refute some made up critique based on your imagination.

As far as stand up fighting goes, the two of them have essentially the same backgrounds, training and experiences. Specifically:

Both trained the same mix of styles (Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji)
Both trained in the same area. (Taiwan. Don't know which cities but Taiwan is not that big)
Both competed in the same stand up sport fighting (Taiwan rules Leitai/Sanda)
Neither one has publicly produced video of themselves fighting in said events.
Both trained and fought in roughly the same era. (roughly. )

As far as stand up fighting goes, their resume's are nearly identical.

[bawang]

lol @ silly gwailos trying to find kung fu in shanghai and taiwan

[hskwarrior]

http://bp1.blogger.com/_a_AkrzPbtVI/SELyJ4320ZI/AAAAAAAAAWE/826B9-tO0Rc/s400/2194031150_e67c407a5a.jpg


Crabbie doing the Horse Stance:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1036/1444775346_f44446665b.jpg