Scrambled Xiao Hong Quan

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Can anyone explain why the Monks sometimes scramble up the forms when they teach them?

I am quite perplexed as to why this would be done, especially to the most widely practiced set there is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev7ZuhOBpFA

I can understand maybe skipping moves when the set is initially taught, with the intention of adding them back in later as the student has progressed (That is how Sal taught me my 32 for example), but scrambling up the order of the set makes no sense to me at all.

Any ideas?

[sha0lin1]

This isn't a scrambled version, there are two sets. The first is the 24 posture version, the second is the 54 posture version which is the one mostly seen on you tube. This one is XHQ 24.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you look at it, he's got the beginning, at the end, and other stuff out of order, but it seems to be all the techniques of the Xiao Hong Quan everybody knows.

I think you might be thinking of this set as being the longer one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evkBVLYJvj8

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This isn't a scrambled version, there are two sets. The first is the 24 posture version, the second is the 54 posture version which is the one mostly seen on you tube. This one is XHQ 24.

Wait, I just re read your post. Where did this 24 version come from?

Also, if it is just a short version of the main one, why are the moves out of order?

[LFJ]

I'm over here in Shaolin now, can't open the Youtube videos, but the 24 posture set is just a simplification which only does one round of the many repeated postures. It doesn't really matter in what order the techniques appear, as long as they are there. The purpose is simply to have all the techniques practiced in a shorter, easier to learn set. There's no significance to the order and it fits nicely the way it has been put together.

[sha0lin1]

Wait, I just re read your post. Where did this 24 version come from?

Also, if it is just a short version of the main one, why are the moves out of order?

I am not sure when the 24 posture set was created, but it was done after the 54 posture set, just as LFJ said, to simplify some of the repeated movements in the main form and have one form which contained all of the techniques.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am not sure when the 24 posture set was created, but it was done after the 54 posture set, just as LFJ said, to simplify some of the repeated movements in the main form and have one form which contained all of the techniques.

Interesting.

I understand that schools shorten forms, but normally they just remove redundancies, but leave the over all order of the choreography intact.

I have also seen sets that were added to, where the order of the original is still intact as well. The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan becoming the Chen style Yi Lu is a great example of that. The Chen family just added thier stuff in between the existing postures. The Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form is still in there, with each move in it's original order.

[RenDaHai]

The perfect length of a form is considered to be 36 movements. Over time sets get added to and then become too long and are refined to a shorter form, containing all the techniques.

Saying that the order is still important. XHQ is designed in such a way that many of the moves can be combined in application with either the move before or after it, or as the middle in 3 moves. It is also a poetically rhyming form, and the repeated movements highlight the strategy of the form. The push palm is repeated 13 times because of its importance. Doing it from Ding bu and from Baiyungaiding for example is very different and both need to be trained. If it is not repeated so the student may underestimate the importance of this technique. Since XHQ is Shaolins MuQuan or Mother Fist I think it is best not to play with it and focus on the long version. The full XHQ can be done as sets 1-4 together, around 200 movements....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The perfect length of a form is considered to be 36 movements. Over time sets get added to and then become too long and are refined to a shorter form, containing all the techniques.

Saying that the order is still important. XHQ is designed in such a way that many of the moves can be combined in application with either the move before or after it, or as the middle in 3 moves. It is also a poetically rhyming form, and the repeated movements highlight the strategy of the form. The push palm is repeated 13 times because of its importance. Doing it from Ding bu and from Baiyungaiding for example is very different and both need to be trained. If it is not repeated so the student may underestimate the importance of this technique. Since XHQ is Shaolins MuQuan or Mother Fist I think it is best not to play with it and focus on the long version. The full XHQ can be done as sets 1-4 together, around 200 movements....

There are 4 sets?

Until this 24 I just discovered, I thought there were only two sets.

Do you know of any links to all 4?

[RenDaHai]

There are no videos I know of.

Well, I know the Shaolin temples archive has them and 1500 other forms on video, but they won't let you see them no matter how many times you ask.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Can anyone explain why the Monks sometimes scramble up the forms when they teach them?

I am quite perplexed as to why this would be done, especially to the most widely practiced set there is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev7ZuhOBpFA

I can understand maybe skipping moves when the set is initially taught, with the intention of adding them back in later as the student has progressed (That is how Sal taught me my 32 for example), but scrambling up the order of the set makes no sense to me at all.

Any ideas?

It's not the monks doing it, it's the private schools.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Gian, you shouldn't make a big deal about the 24 posture XHQ.
It's just a training set for kids.

The standard version is the 54 posture one that everyone has done or seen. Then there is the longer version of this (every Shaolin set has a long and longer version).

Then there is an Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan (which I really like) and there are two others that haven't been openly taught.

Da Hong Quan same way, there is the 4 sets of that, but then there are more sets in that system that were given as gifts to Shaolin by people from Shandong that had mastered the style.

Xiao Hong Quan is a system different than Da Hong Quan.

But, different time periods used different ways to name their systems.

During the early Qing era The Shaolin Hong Quan system was composed of:
Xiao Hong Quan
Da Hong Quan
Luohan Quan
Taizu Chang Quan
Rou Quan
Tongbi Quan
Pao Chui (or Quan).
with some other routines in there too.

During the late Qing era after much strife and turmoil at Shaolin, there was a restructuring done and there was developed a Shaolin System that we know of today, which the set of 18 Classic Sets, some example sets from various Shaolin systems.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am mostly just focusing on the Xiao Hong Quan stuff at the moment.

Ok, so I can disregard the 24 then.


Then there is an Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan (which I really like) and there are two others that haven't been openly taught.

Do you know of any videos online of that set? I have never heard of it.

Let me see if I got this, there is

1. Xiao Hong Quan
2. Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan
3. Lao Xiao Hong Quan

Doesn't this system also have a Da Hong Quan?

If I remember right, this system was made by a Father and Son. The Xiao Hong Quan was from the Son, and there is supposed to be a Da Hong Quan (maybe the Lao Xiao Hong set?) developed by the Father?

That one is a different Da Hong Quan than the one we see that has 6 roads, and is made from Zhao Kuang Yin's notes. Am I correct?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am mostly just focusing on the Xiao Hong Quan stuff at the moment.

Ok, so I can disregard the 24 then.


Do you know of any videos online of that set? I have never heard of it.

Let me see if I got this, there is

1. Xiao Hong Quan
2. Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan
3. Lao Xiao Hong Quan

Doesn't this system also have a Da Hong Quan?

If I remember right, this system was made by a Father and Son. The Xiao Hong Quan was from the Son, and there is supposed to be a Da Hong Quan (maybe the Lao Xiao Hong set?) developed by the Father?

That one is a different Da Hong Quan than the one we see that has 6 roads, and is made from Zhao Kuang Yin's notes. Am I correct?

No videos of Er Lu Hong Quan. It's mostly a set of different kinds of kicks. Very vigorous set to practice with lots of great application ideas in it.

No, Xiao Hong system doesn't have a Da Hong Quan, they have two completely different origins.
Da Hong Quan original movements are from Zhao Kuang Yin's martial arts.

Xiao Hong Quan is originally from the ancient Yellow River Valley Hong Quan martial arts and from a Shanxi / Shaanxi Hong Quan. There was always a Hong Quan system with 10 sets in Henan province since ancient times. It influenced Chen Taiji because of various reasons. 1) it was practiced in Shanxi area where Chen clan was originally from, 2) it was practiced in the countryside in the Henan area where Chen clan moved to , 3) it was practiced in Shaolin when Chen clan had interaction with it, and 4) it was practiced by Priest Dong who developed Tongbei Quan from it and influenced Chen TJQ.
Da Hong Quan had no influence on Chen TJQ at all.

What are you talking about a father and son? That's some silly made up story from modern times.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What is the history of Xiao Hong Quan's development?

[Sal Canzonieri]

What is the history of Xiao Hong Quan's development?

WROTE 200 PAGES ABOUT it in my forthcoming book, he heh.

[Xian]

Hey Sal, one question. You mentioned there are four Da Hong Quan sets. What about those from Liu Zhen Hai ? Today I was roaming around in the net and saw that he has 6 roads of Da Hong Quan as VCDs.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

WROTE 200 PAGES ABOUT it in my forthcoming book, he heh.

Where do we get them ;) ?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal, one question. You mentioned there are four Da Hong Quan sets. What about those from Liu Zhen Hai ? Today I was roaming around in the net and saw that he has 6 roads of Da Hong Quan as VCDs.


Kind regards,
Xian

There's even more than that.

After the first 3 standard roads, which is really the whole set in truth.
THEN, came the gift sets from the masters that visited from Shandong, they learned Shaolin Da Hong Quan and then developed a set to gift back to Shaolin.
Hence there is the remaining sets, some of which are taught by Liu Zhan Hai.
If you notice sets 4-6 are pretty different than the Zhao Kuang Yin derived sets 1-3.
This is because they added their own signature moves into the sets and local shandong martial arts.

It's because of all this stuff (above) that arose all the talk about Zhao Kuang Yin was the Taizu (Grand ancestor) of Shantung long fist. He wasn't and they had their own martial arts (Ba Shan Fan, Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Mizhong Quan, Mei Hua Zhuang, and more. By the way, just about all Shantung martial arts were later taken over by Chinese Muslims, they didn't originate the Shantung arts, but they preserved them, if they hadn't they would be all extinct by today!!!! You can thank the Chinese Muslims for preserving MOST of the ancient Chinese martial arts in China) that found their way into Shaolin during the days that rebels used Shaolin as a meeting place and refuge. So, after the 1700s everything got mixed together in a way, there was "cells" in Shaolin that each preserved their style (in case one style was defeated, then the others could prevail). Each gate into the temple and grounds practiced their own styles.

So, yes, indirectly Zhao's material used in Shaolin Da Hong Quan went into Shantung as Hong Quan spread there (many famous Hong Quan practitioners arose there). BUT, it was imported in and was not the origin point of their indigenous martial arts. Sure it influenced them in some way, but that's all.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Where do we get them ;) ?

Not done with the book yet. Sorry.

[Xian]

Not done with the book yet. Sorry.

Ah I meant in general.

Thanks for the other posts. To be honest by now I have no chance to look to the sets of Zhao Kuan Yin because where I located its even hard to find someone who practices Northern Shaolin and even more one who does good stuff.
I practice a more Southern Shaolin based Martial arts as it has the best principle and concept work I can get by now.
Other "option" would be practicing WT:P

I have tried to study a little Xiao Hong Quan from video. For me it was interesting and good workout but I wouldnt dare to call it a Xiao Hong Quan as I have no teacher in it.But anyway it gives strong legs and deep stances so I love it.I tried to look as most as I can how Shi Guo Song does it, as in comparing with the Demo of Shi De Yang I felt something is missing. Later by following your conversations I learned there a lot of things missing.


Kind regards,
Xian