To Kill Or Not To Kill

[ginosifu]

Over the years I have had the opportunity to train with several teachers. All have different approaches and emaphasis on training.

One teacher wanted us to workout super hard, killing us in every session. Forcing us to adjust and to adapt during the work out. However, some people never could keep up and were not able to perform properly during class. While overly exhausted they could not execute stances, postures or structure properly, thus in my opinion creating bad muscle memory habits.

Another teacher only wanted to train the stances, posture and structure while we had the energy to devote to focusing on proper training. While we had plenty of energy and focus to put to proper stance, posture etc etc, the workouts were not as exhausting and no one was getting into "Shape".

This has nothing to do with sparring / resistance class. Both had sparring / Shuai Chiao / fighting drills / San Shou etc etc. This training was strictly basic skills class.

Which way do you go? Is there a middle ground?

ginosifu

[Ray Pina]

A good trainer should have you in cycles.

For example, Monday class after a long weekend should have a nice warm up, technical drills, some light free play.

Wed. you should get crushed. Intense warm up. Heavy resistance drills. Long round, heavy free play.

Fri. more stretch-like warm up, technical drills, maybe fun like free play: one man stands in guard and passes without using hands. Or one man is IT and has to take everyone down. Once taken down, now you're on his team and have to help take every one down.

You go through cycles. It helps if the coach/trainer is doing it with you. Then they understand how the body feels.

You do need to be pushed. It's not bad to have that, "I might throw up" feeling every once in a while. Part of MA is training the mind. When you're tired and sore, maybe even hurt, you have to perform..... at the same time you have to protect yourself and be mindful of injuries. Hurt and injured are not the same.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It depends on what people are in class for.
Going "balls to the wall" is great ( though you should always leave some gas in the tank) IF class is the ONLY workout you get.
Personally I believe Class time is just that, instructional.
Conditioning should be done outside of class time.
But not everyone has the schedule to do this so it is understandable that class time becomes class/workout time.

[SPJ]

conditioning day 1, day 2, day--

just like a soccer, or basket ball team, they run around football field or basket ball court

we were asked to do a lot of warming up, stretching, and running around dojo or gym or just outdoor field.

10 laps then 25 laps, then 50 laps

we do that every time before class/instruction

--

we have to repeat lessons from last time well

before any new instructions/lessons

--

these are 2 same criteria from all of my teachers.

:)

[David Jamieson]

I personally use cycles as well and try to avoid the same work out twice.

I don't mix striking workouts (bags,mitts,partner,shadow) with lifting and vice versa.

I do mix cal with sets and plenty of bodywork with sets.
I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.

[Ray Pina]

I definitely don't want to do jumping jacks, etc.... But pummeling, shooting, rounds on the heavy bag, shadow boxing, sprawling all train specific skills, muscle memory while providing awesome cardio. Though we also do fireman carry drills, bear crawls, crocodile crawls, vertical jumping onto boxes, over boxes, sledge hammer large tires, flip large tires etc.... this provides explosivity, muscle endurance and it trains you to keep going when tired.

There's also the factor of pushing yourself harder when you're with classmates preparing for competition.

Jogging I do on my own. Weights I do on my own. But I see the difference all the time when other schools come to train with us or in competition. Conditioning is often the deciding factor, especially when two people are close in skill/knowledge.

[Ray Pina]

I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.

That is the best use of form I have heard. That is reasonable. Sort of a maintenance check up.

[Lucas]

I think doing conditioning drills that are specific to your skillset is good. Enough to warm up the whole body. If you are working some specific stuff that day, those drills will be in line with the material. Some people are come straight from work or school, so enough to prepare everyone for violent action is good, then stretch it out and start the drills and sparring. I like to do around 30 min of skill specific conditioning then 1.5-2 hours of drills and sparring in class. It feels about right. Weight training and additional conditioning should be done outside of class. Even if you gas, you can refresh petty quick if you aren't in horrible shape.

[IronFist]

Wait, are you talking about a separate "workout" class that is different from the normal "martial arts skills" class?

[Pork Chop]

Wait, are you talking about a separate "workout" class that is different from the normal "martial arts skills" class?

This is kind of how I'm doing it lately.

My muay thai gym used to be a lot different.
There have been a shortage of seniors around; so the coach really switched stuff up.

Used to be: about the first hour was a structured workout that included warm up, calisthenics, and maybe some shadow. The second hour was technique work with a partner, pad work, bag work, and maybe some light sparring. The end result was getting s&c along side my skills. Even still, at that time I used to go to another gym for dedicated bag work, and a fitness gym for weights & cardio - usually on the same days.

These days, everyone shows up at different times, there is not structured workout at the beginning, and almost the entire thing is working attack/defense techniques with a partner. I'm lucky if I can get in 5 rounds of jump rope before having to rush off to go work with a new guy on the most basic of attack/defense drills.

I'm going to try to make a push for some pad work instead of no contact defense drills; so the 2 or 3 seniors can at least get some sort of workout.

In the meantime, I'm getting my actual workout from the krav maga school's fitness classes.
I still need to figure out when I can get in some proper bag work - maybe after monday yoga.
We do interval work on the bags, but it's not proper bag work.

I'd prefer not to have to work out 3 separate times a day like I used to.
I think that kind of schedule makes things much more of a grind and makes me more injury prone.
Having different things on different days is also nice; because I feel like I'm actually missing something if I skip out on a day. If I just go to the same gym(s) every day, it gets kind of a monotonous and missing a day here or there doesn't seem like a big deal.

Also, I refuse to run, so I gotta make up that cardio somewhere.
Besides, I think doing a few hours of tabata-type intervals and crosfit-like training will give me better stamina than jogging ever could.
If I can get strength & conditioning work and technique work in at 1 to 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, it sure beats spending my whole life in the gym.

[ginosifu]

When I was younger our workouts started with a 2 mile run. Then 30 - 45 minutes of stretching. Then 2000 (yes two thousand) jumping jacks 200 monkey Jumps, 200 Donkey Kicks, 200 push ups, 200 crunch sit ups. Then a cardio set of kicks punches drills usually done in line drills etc etc. Classes back then were 3 hours and normally 3-6 people in a class. Anyone who could not keep up was told don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. After the hardcore exercise and drill session came the form work out and then fighting or sparring.



I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.

I have one problem with the above statement. This is only good for advanced students. Beginners have not grasped the basics and will increase the risk of creating bad habits, especially with structure, proper stance and correct posture. All these basic skills go out the door when a beginner is exhausted. I find it useless to try and teach proper structure and execution of a technique while the student's only focus is not to throw up in the classroom.

For advanced students, I think DJ's approach is good. I always attempt to work fixing alignment, execution etc while doing my forms even to this day.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

I know some people are gonna spit coffee or milk or whatever out there face when they read this, but some of you won't.

Form can take a long time to understand fully.

First there is the shape and the pattern.
Then you have to learn to express the shape and fill it wit the correct energies.
Then you have to be able to break it down and understand applications drawn from the combinations within.

This process can take literally years before everything within the form is completely understood.

so, yeah, for beginners, it's about having them learn the form and then get to a point where they understand it, can make it flow, can pull it apart and drill the combos within etc.

I further understand that some guys are also gonna hate reading this, but we have a set in our style that takes about 6 months to a year just to learn it and about 2 to 3 years to express it properly on average. some students are adept and others less so but the timeline is average.

having said that any discipline at all will take you about 10,000 hours or 10 years to master. that much is known through the scientific method as applied by Malcolm Gladwell in his study titled "Outliers".

So, Gino, I agree, not for beginners this method, but definitely an introduction to continued investment in failure for advanced students. :)

[YouKnowWho]

When I was younger our workouts started with a 2 mile run. Then 30 - 45 minutes of stretching. Then 2000 (yes two thousand) jumping jacks 200 monkey Jumps, 200 Donkey Kicks, 200 push ups, 200 crunch sit ups. Then a cardio set of kicks punches drills usually done in line drills etc etc.
IMO, you don't need to do push up, sit up in class because you can do that at home all by yourself.

Some people may asked you, "How many times do you train weekly?" I like to ask people, "How many times do you train daily?" The proper way of training should be 3 times daily:

- Go to school to learn (learn new skill).
- Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, ...).
- Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill).

In this TV movie, the teacher asked his student to use shovel to move dirt from one side of the yard to another side for 49 days. The teacher then asked his student to use basket to carry dirt from one side of the yard to another side of the yard for another 49 days. In those 98 days training, the student has developed good body strength, balance, .... Ability like this just cannot be trained in the class environment.

http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f3109631o1p0.html

[Ray Pina]

Form can take a long time to understand fully.



I see stuff in BJJ now that I'm like, "Wow, that's what that was" about karate forms I learned over 20 years ago.

My favorite form is from Bak Mei... a style I didn't even really study. But I always liked it. Short choppy steps linked with powerful striking. Lot of dangerous stuff in that short form.

[ginosifu]

IMO, you don't need to do push up, sit up in class because you can do that at home all by yourself.

Some people may asked you, "How many times do you train weekly?" I like to ask people, "How many times do you train daily?" The proper way of training should be 3 times daily:

- Go to school to learn (learn new skill).
- Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, ...).
- Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill).

Again, this is a good concept for advanced students.

Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, ...).
Beginners may not know what exercises to do after class. Some may not have time after class. When I first decided that I was going to learn Martial Arts I did not have a clue about I was going do in the class except that I wanted to learn what Qwai Chan Caine did in the 70's TV show "KUNG FU". When we started heavy workouts and push ups etc, I really did not care and thought it was just part of the training. At that time in my life I was young and already in shape, I had no desire to "Workout". All I wanted to do was to become like Qwai Chan Caine.

Beginner students do not posses the knowledge of what is the correct type workout they should be doing at home. They may not even have time to do it at home. The teachers must show what the proper exercises / weight training etc etc. that will benefit their Kung Fu. As the student advances then they can carry their workout at home to do on their own.

Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill)
Sparring partners are hard to by outside of the class room. No one that I knew (friends or family) wanted roll around with me. That's why beginners should stay in class room and spar / roll around with fellow classmates. It was not until I was a bit more advanced before going to other schools (karate / bbj / kenpo etc) and asked if I could spar with anyone.

Beginners should not try any of this until they get a grasp of fighting / wrestling. Looking outside of class is something for more advanced students.

ginosifu

[Lee Chiang Po]

None of the above! You are just spending your money foolishly and the instructor is just letting you exert yourself and not learning anything for that money. All physical training should be the responsibility of the individuals. They know that they should be building strength and stamina, so they should be doing that on their own time. When you show up for gung fu class, you should be there strictly to learn. Learning is best done with a clear mind and rested body. Once you learn the skills, you can then train them at will, but running and jumping jacks are not gung fu. They waste time that could be better spent teaching and learning. No one does their best when exhausted. No one learns proper form when exhausted. And you should not do drills or gung fu moves until you are exhausted.
Physical training can be done without cost and can be done at your leasure. Don't waste time in class doing that. Make that time count for something.

[YouKnowWho]

I won't waste time on those who go to school to train and come home to rest. This was the major dis-agreement that I had when I was in the Judo forum. Most Judo guys in that forum had very strong belief that training at home can build up bad habit. To me, not training at home is the bad habit.

[Ray Pina]

I understand the "kwoon is for learning" and "exercise at home" principle.... I would say the majority of TCMA people I trained with where not of an athletic build. Nowhere near the level of boxers, wrestles, BJJers.

Your training should build you. You can tell a wrestler by his body. You can tell a boxer by the way his arms are built.... from countless hours of pad work, bags, etc.

Let's look at ourselves honestly: If all this time is being put "to learning" in class. What are students learning? What's the take away? Form? We don;t have an over abundance of well fit, physically athletic looking fighters on our hands? In fact, video of the bigger names folk reveal guys winded after a mile jog. Non muscular guys doing wishy washy forms with no power or intent.

There's a difference between doing two man resistance drills (something as simple as take downs) as doing pushups... which I'm also not against. Just for the heck of it. Randomly during class. Drop and bang out 20.

A martial artist needs his mind and wits but there's a part in a fighter that should be like a machine. Just capable of running when tired, hurt, gassed. That comes from exertion. And being forced to perform.

[bawang]

if i had a shcool i would take the entire class to gym to do squats every morning at 6 am.

[YouKnowWho]

The following conversation is from the 甄三(Zhen San) TV movie:

A: What's the secret that teacher is teaching you at this moment?
B: Nothing special really.
A: Could you show me?
B: He asked me to use shovel to move dirt from the east wall to the west wall for 49 days. He then asked me to use basket to move dirt from the west wall to the east wall for 49 days. Do you want to try it?
A: No!

Serious training like this just can't be done in class environment.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzg0OTEwNDA=.html

[Pork Chop]

With my family, I really don't have much time to work out.
I have maybe an hour or two after work.
After my kid goes to bed, I have an hour or two in the evenings to work on school work before bed. Maybe if I wasn't in school, i could work out then too, but it's not very likely.
With such limited time to work out, I have to make sure my training counts.
I understand splitting up skills and conditioning (especially since my class has changed); but there's still a base line of conditioning i need for my techniques.
I'd like to have class time to work on jump rope (for footwork), calisthenics, shadowboxing, heavybag, thai pads, sparring, and live drills (ie attack/defense work with some actual speed & contact).
I don't want to spend that time doing nothing but teaching beginners.

[Ray Pina]

You are just spending your money foolishly and the instructor is just letting you exert yourself and not learning anything for that money. All physical training should be the responsibility of the individuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5HAevNMAOo


The above is very similar to the circuits we do about 3 months out of a fight or a BJJ tournament we're serious about. That would be our "warm up." Then we'd do technical training. Then free play.... as the event gets closer, we phase out the grueling stuff and focus more on just cardio and technique. And then about 10 days out, just technique and movement but give the body time to heal.

Most successful gyms/fighters do the same for a reason: it works. It produces the endurance and explosive power that a fighter needs. To train for combat and not include that is irresponsible .... I know! I've gone to fight in the past without it. There's nothing worse than being in the ring and exhausted.

If all you do is form, you don't need it. The form itself will provide low levels of the same.

[ginosifu]

None of the above! You are just spending your money foolishly and the instructor is just letting you exert yourself and not learning anything for that money. All physical training should be the responsibility of the individuals. They know that they should be building strength and stamina, so they should be doing that on their own time.

Again as I have stated before, how do you what an individual understands about Martial Arts and working out / strength & conditioning? When I was a young man I did not know Martial Arts needed Lin Gung or strength training. All I knew was that I wanted to be like the character I seen on TV. At that point in my life I told my Sifu that I really I did NOT give a fook fu about exercises and getting into shape. All I wanted was to be like Qwai Chan Caine.

So what you are saying is just leave them to figure conditioning on their own? As a teacher you need to guide your student and that would mean me actually seeing them do the exercises in the class so I can aid them in proper execution etc etc. What about specific strength programs or skill sets that only kung fu teachers would know how to do? In Hung Gar I have specific strength exercises that are used for Tiger Claw and such. How will they ever learn such a skill without me teaching this stuff in the classroom?

I agree that advanced students must take these skill sets and do them outside the classroom, but beginners must have instruction "In The Classroom"

ginosifu

[Ray Pina]

Good post ginosifu.......

[Ray Pina]

Honestly, the problems I've seen with most TCMA schools is that the sifu and the students:
A) don't want to move their a$$
b) don't really want to fight


They want to wear the garb and be able to perform forms in tournaments and family picnics. They like the idea of being related to the "warrior tradition" as someone said yesterday..... yet they are not willing to walk that path, which requires sacrifice and pain.

[MasterKiller]

They like the idea of being related to the "warrior tradition" as someone said yesterday..... yet they are not willing to walk that path, which requires sacrifice and pain.

Dude, 90% of people in MMA classes are the same way. They just want some exercise and to have some fun. Only 10% of people in a gym train to fight.

You might have more BJJ guys training for BJJ tournaments, but a BJJ tournament is almost the equivalent of continuous sparring at a Kung Fu tournament---not much actual risk involved, which is why you have a sh1t-ton of kids and women competing.

[wenshu]

Joel Jameison has an article up on his site that kind of touches on this topic from a professional MMA point of view: http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/09/02/a-day-in-the-life-of-bibiano-fernandes-tim-boetsch/

They split training sessions twice a day between conditioning and technical work.

The MMA training session at AMC Pankration was about 2 and a half hours long and mostly focused on technical drilling before concluding with about 30 minutes of some moderate intensity sparring. As you can see from the video, Tim and Bibiano were not going 100% in the sparring and they weren’t trying to kill each other, they were just getting in some quality work.
This is something I think a lot of younger and less experienced fighters need to learn. Far too many fighters think sparring is just an excuse to throw as hard as you can, rather than as an opportunity to put together your skills and work on getting better. This approach typically leads to fighters eventually getting hurt and their skills never really improve beyond a certain point. They never really learn how to train to get better and instead they just go in the gym day in and day out and throw as hard as they can.

For a beginner the class time itself should be more than they can handle. After they develop and adapt to the stress of the class any continued improvement requires the incorporation of supplementary strength and conditioning (that could be within the confines of the class itself by extension).

As has been mentioned ad nauseum, part of the problem with gong fu in the west is too much focus on needlessly complicated techniques and not enough on physical conditioning. From my experience the first year or three of gong fu is mostly about conditioning in the first place; you have to build up the body to be able to execute anything. Although paradoxically this is what people seem to have a problem with about gong fu?

Again, from a beginners point of view, unless they already have a strong athletic background (a forgone conclusion if they are practicing gong fu in america. . .) part of what they signed up for is to learn how to work out in the first place. . .

...ok, nevermind.

Something that stuck out that isn't directly related to the topic at hand;

At this stage in the game, one of the biggest things I’m looking for is how high their heart rates get during the training period and how quickly they drop during the rest interval. This tells me a lot about their overall conditioning level and where they’re at. Both Tim and Bibiano’s heart rates are dropping very well – the other day Bibiano’s dropped from 186 down to 126 in a minute – so this is a good sign and let’s me know that they are on the right track.

[wenshu]

Honestly, the problems I've seen with most TCMA schools is that the sifu and the students:
A) don't want to move their a$$
b) don't really want to fight


BJJ is ghey dry humping.

As long as we're making blanket generalizations based on our own narrow frame of experience. . .

Wait - what? That came out wrong.

[David Jamieson]

.

Wait - what? That came out wrong.

That's what SHE said!

[bawang]

BJJ is ghey dry humping.

As long as we're making blanket generalizations based on our own narrow frame of experience. . .

Wait - what? That came out wrong.

its not gay if you dont make eye contact

[taai gihk yahn]

here's the problem with training most "amateurs" at high intensity: it's an outlyer in context of the rest of their day / week / lives; in other words, if most of the day u r relatively sedentary and ur life in general is not "martially" oriented, to steeply ramp up the intensity to the level of training that will "kill u", is incongruous, and creates excessive stress in the system; I'm not saying that one shudn't work out, but it's a matter of degree; see, when pros train, it's big picture - meaning that they cycle their training in a both a micro and a macro sense: within a workout, but also over weeks, months and years; what u see is a relatively shallow gradient, where they ramp their training up and down according to what they r doing - so when u see the pros going all out, it's something they have approached in a methodical and sequential manner; plus, their entire psychology / physiology is at a baseline far closer to that high level intensity to begin with;

the intelligent approach to training is to individualize it; u can't do that in a group class bec. it wouldn't work, and also bec u wud have to watch each person individually; so u can either a) push all out and only the strong survive; b) work at a moderate intensity that is hard enough to make the weekend warriors think they r MMA pros, but not too hard to cause them injury; c) keep the workout easy for the soccer mom's and related tendencies...

[Ray Pina]

You might have more BJJ guys training for BJJ tournaments, but a BJJ tournament is almost the equivalent of continuous sparring at a Kung Fu tournament---not much actual risk involved, which is why you have a sh1t-ton of kids and women competing.

I've seen more injuries in BJJ, honestly. Personally, I've broken both clavicles and a rib in BJJ. My good friend had his arm broken in a tournament recently.

I've broken someone's arm rolling at a gym in North Carolina last summer. Wasn't intentional. Guy had rank on me, we were rolling hard and I got the arm bar. He didn't tap when I secure the position real well and put pressure... you never know. Some guys can take pain better, some guys aren't affected by some locks. I pushed it. It popped.

I've seen that happen around me on the matt three other times. That's four broken arms in my presence in 5 years of BJJ training.

I've seen the same with knees and ankles. Especially when playing with Sambo guys.

[Ray Pina]

Dude, 90% of people in MMA classes are the same way. They just want some exercise and to have some fun. Only 10% of people in a gym train to fight.



It varies. This one gym in Isabella I train at, has 7 to 10 core guys. All but three or four have fought. The guys who haven't fought are 16 or 17 and training to fight. These are the guys participating in "class." There are a handful of older, fatter guys who just fu(k with the bags while we're sweating.

The BJJ gym I go to, everyone competes! We go together in 2 or three cars. There's a strong emphasis on developing competitive BJJ here. Mostly under Flavio Behring.

I'm slowing down now. But when I was in my younger 30s and willing to fight, I learned I couldn't waste my time at gyms without fighters. Fighters get developed alongside other fighters.

[wenshu]

here's the problem with training most "amateurs" at high intensity: it's an outlyer in context of the rest of their day / week / lives; in other words, if most of the day u r relatively sedentary and ur life in general is not "martially" oriented, to steeply ramp up the intensity to the level of training that will "kill u", is incongruous, and creates excessive stress in the system; I'm not saying that one shudn't work out, but it's a matter of degree; see, when pros train, it's big picture - meaning that they cycle their training in a both a micro and a macro sense: within a workout, but also over weeks, months and years; what u see is a relatively shallow gradient, where they ramp their training up and down according to what they r doing - so when u see the pros going all out, it's something they have approached in a methodical and sequential manner; plus, their entire psychology / physiology is at a baseline far closer to that high level intensity to begin with;

the intelligent approach to training is to individualize it; u can't do that in a group class bec. it wouldn't work, and also bec u wud have to watch each person individually; so u can either a) push all out and only the strong survive; b) work at a moderate intensity that is hard enough to make the weekend warriors think they r MMA pros, but not too hard to cause them injury; c) keep the workout easy for the soccer mom's and related tendencies...

Doesn't work capacity naturally dictate that? A weekend warrior's high intensity interval isn't **** to a pro. For instance in my last post I noted about the HR drop
the other day Bibiano’s dropped from 186 down to 126 in a minute
Being the same age, but mine goes from 180 to <130 in anywhere between 2:30-3:00m. I'd struggle just to get close to his max let alone the amount of time I would have to put in to get to that kind of drop. Not gonna happen with my schedule and I thought I was in decent shape.

Naturally you have a point about the injury potential of throwing high intensity at someone who alternated between office chair and sofa all week.

Another good article from Jameison about intensity: http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/09/13/high-low-training-mma-fight-magazine/

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact is the more intense the less you can do so it is impossible to have a 2 hour intense workout, just as it is impossible to have a 5 minute endurance workout.

Intense = brief, it is when they push intense to mean long that injuries and counter-production happen.

You run the 100 full force and that is why you can only run it for a dozen seconds.
You pace yourself in a marathon that is why you can run it for a couple of hours.
Confuse the two and you get nothing out of those protocols.

[Lucas]

Sometimes I am going to class right out of work, and i need to warm myself up. I have to have a good warm up to get me ready to start sparring, and pushing my techniques hard against resistance, we spar every day so i feel its important to be ready for that. I like the way my judo teacher runs the conditioning. Its 30-45 high intensity session, geared toward what application drills we will be working on that day, but you are always able to 'sit out' or 'slow down' what you are doing, or if you simply cannot perform the work, do what you can or work your way up. included in that time is our stretching after all the hard work. He also pulls aside the new people to explain this or that, or give instruction on how to do this or that drill. If for some reason you dont feel you are getting enough out of a drill, ramp it up yourself. Do more, do it faster, do it harder, do what what you need to get it to your level, if you finish before everyone else, do it again... its somewhat of a 'the strong will survive' deal, with a chance to let yourself catch up to the strong.

[Ray Pina]

here's the problem with training most "amateurs" at high intensity: it's an outlyer in context of the rest of their day / week / lives; in other words, if most of the day u r relatively sedentary and ur life in general is not "martially" oriented, to steeply ramp up the intensity to the level of training that will "kill u", is incongruous, and creates excessive stress in the system


Here's the kicker. You train that way for 5 weeks, you're going to see a remarkable transformation in your body. You aren't sedentary anymore. You're an athlete. And work is an excuse: I know pro fighters and BJJers who are stock brokers and lawyers, teachers and construction workers. First rule of MA: if there's a will, there's a way..

Secondly, there are HUGE martial implications.... you train this way your raw material is better. Your weapon, your body, is better honed. That alone is often the difference.

So the question is, do you dumb down the training to appeal to more people so you can make a living from Kung Fu? The answer to that is: True2Form.

Martial Arts is wonderful and provides so many benefits for the body, mind and spirit.. that is the result of the training. But the training of MA and MMA is for competitive fighting.... all fighting is competitive. It's just a matter of stakes and what you fight for.

When you have prepared yourself to schedule a fight like Pork Chop said the other day, when you do that training, you develop a character that separates you. You're not normal or average. You are physically stronger and mentally stronger than other people.

I get a lot of bad press around here and called crazy but I don't get it. To me everyone else is crazy. It's simple. You training martial arts its a decision you make. Then you man up and do it. I don;t sign up for NASCAR and then drive around the block at 10 mph so I can wear the patches.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I once did an experiment in one of my classes.
I told them it was gonna be the typical 90 min session and then I UPED the intensity of the count, cut rest times, increased repetitions and basically did the 90 class in 60.
No one made it through the class and these were guys that would do the 90 on a regular basis.
Another time I got a guy that would do the bag for 10x 3 min rounds.
I got him doing 6 x 2 min with 30 second breaks and I paced him myself.
He didn't last 4 rounds.
Intensity changes everything and you MUSt adjust accordingly.

[Ray Pina]

Intensity changes everything and you MUSt adjust accordingly.

That's definitely true.

[IronFist]

This is kind of how I'm doing it lately.

My muay thai gym used to be a lot different.
There have been a shortage of seniors around; so the coach really switched stuff up.

Used to be: about the first hour was a structured workout that included warm up, calisthenics, and maybe some shadow. The second hour was technique work with a partner, pad work, bag work, and maybe some light sparring. The end result was getting s&c along side my skills. Even still, at that time I used to go to another gym for dedicated bag work, and a fitness gym for weights & cardio - usually on the same days.

These days, everyone shows up at different times, there is not structured workout at the beginning, and almost the entire thing is working attack/defense techniques with a partner. I'm lucky if I can get in 5 rounds of jump rope before having to rush off to go work with a new guy on the most basic of attack/defense drills.

I'm going to try to make a push for some pad work instead of no contact defense drills; so the 2 or 3 seniors can at least get some sort of workout.

In the meantime, I'm getting my actual workout from the krav maga school's fitness classes.
I still need to figure out when I can get in some proper bag work - maybe after monday yoga.
We do interval work on the bags, but it's not proper bag work.

I'd prefer not to have to work out 3 separate times a day like I used to.
I think that kind of schedule makes things much more of a grind and makes me more injury prone.
Having different things on different days is also nice; because I feel like I'm actually missing something if I skip out on a day. If I just go to the same gym(s) every day, it gets kind of a monotonous and missing a day here or there doesn't seem like a big deal.

Also, I refuse to run, so I gotta make up that cardio somewhere.
Besides, I think doing a few hours of tabata-type intervals and crosfit-like training will give me better stamina than jogging ever could.
If I can get strength & conditioning work and technique work in at 1 to 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, it sure beats spending my whole life in the gym.

I was gonna make a thread about this, actually.

[IronFist]

Physical conditioning/exercises should be optional in MA class.

Some people have their own workout routines where the stuff you do in class may be counter productive. A guy who is a powerlifter probably isn't going to want to do 3 sets of 50 pushups or whatever.

Besides, if I'm paying for lessons, I'm paying to learn how to fight, not paying for you to count reps while I do sit ups.

I understand that some people don't workout outside of class, and for those people, the calisthenics or whatever in class are beneficial.

Now if you're training for a tournament or something then I can see following a special routine in class, but not for normal stuff.

I remember a few years ago when this topic was brought up. People on both sides of the argument were very strong in their beliefs, ranging from "it's disrespectful to not do the exercises your teacher tells you to do," to completely agreeing with me.

Anyway, it should be optional, and ideally, class should be structured like this:

Say class is from 7-8:30.

Make it known that the first half hour is for exercise type stuff and if you want to show up and do it then, then cool, but the martial arts stuff starts at 7:30 and goes til 8:30 so just make sure you're there by then for the real class.

That way, the people who don't do their own workouts can come get a good workout in, and the people who do have their own exercise programs won't do conflicting stuff.

And as mentioned in this thread, it can lead to overtraining if you have to do stuff in class and you're already doing your own hardcore workouts.

[IronFist]

Regarding intensity in class, there's no reason to go balls to the wall every day (although I'm sure some instructors do because they want to be "hardcore") but there are lots of documented reasons not to go balls to the wall every day.

[Pork Chop]

I know pro fighters and BJJers who are stock brokers and lawyers, teachers and construction workers. First rule of MA: if there's a will, there's a way..


Shane Carwin of the UFC works full time as an engineer.



When you have prepared yourself to schedule a fight like Pork Chop said the other day, when you do that training, you develop a character that separates you. You're not normal or average. You are physically stronger and mentally stronger than other people.

I think that was MightyB. Not trying to take credit for anybody else's wise words.
I just want to follow that up with the observation that there are a lot of things that go on in amateur & professional fighting that can really take you out of your element.
Nerves, lack of sleep, uncomfortable hotel bed, food that you're not used to, not being able to drink gatorade between rounds, false starts while you're waiting back stage for hours, and a slew of other, seemingly minor things, can really mess you up come fight time.
That's why the mental game is the hardest part about competing.



Intensity changes everything and you MUSt adjust accordingly.

Quoted for truth.
Average amateur fight is over in under 10 minutes, yet people still gas and/or puke all over the place.
Going back to my last statement, gassing, poor pacing, and poor performance are largely a mental thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Average amateur fight is over in under 10 minutes, yet people still gas and/or puke all over the place.
Going back to my last statement, gassing, poor pacing, and poor performance are largely a mental thing.

Cardio goes out the window when nerves come into play.
Experience IS cardio.
Let that sink in....
:cool:

[Ray Pina]

Fact is the more intense the less you can do so it is impossible to have a 2 hour intense workout, just as it is impossible to have a 5 minute endurance workout.
.

It's also somewhat relative. A 30 minute free roll session will be more intense for those who rely on brute force vs those you relax and use technique.

I can say, I'm usually spent after class. The "intense" part is the warm up usually. That will last for 30 mins, roughly. With about 7 to 10 of us switching to stations of various exercises for a certain number of reps.

Or we spend the time running laps but then bear crawl, crocodile crawl, jump, roll, etc. across the matt. Followed by circling and sprawls (burpees).

Then a water/**** break.

Then an hour of drilling. It's not intense. But an hour of arm bars, sweeps from half-guard, etc, being thrown... there's strenghth and conditioning involved there too.

Water/****

30 mins of free play.

On days with crushing warm ups sometimes we take it easier in free play. Sometimes we don't. But not exaggeration: all of our gis are soaked. When it's no gi. There's puddles on the floor.

Granted, this is training in Puerto Rico with no A/C. Full Gi, even in July and Aug.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's also somewhat relative

Of course, intensity is 100% relative.
But to what?
Balls to the wall is intense for everyone and no one can do it for hours, even double digit minutes.
Hit the bag as fast and as hard as you can non-stop and IF you can do 5 mins you will be lucky.
That is, IF YOU DO IT that way.
I've seen people's idea of intense and it is pure, unadulterated, ****.
People naturally pace themselves, they can't help, and those are the ones that get so little of of those so called "intense" workouts.
If you can talk while training it is NOT intense.
If you don't have to stop to breathe, it is NOT intense.
People speak of Tabata's but very few have ever truly done them.
People speak of HIIT, but very few every do it.

[Lucas]

It's also somewhat relative. A 30 minute free roll session will be more intense for those who rely on brute force vs those you relax and use technique.

I can say, I'm usually spent after class. The "intense" part is the warm up usually. That will last for 30 mins, roughly. With about 7 to 10 of us switching to stations of various exercises for a certain number of reps.

Or we spend the time running laps but then bear crawl, crocodile crawl, jump, roll, etc. across the matt. Followed by circling and sprawls (burpees).

Then a water/**** break.

Then an hour of drilling. It's not intense. But an hour of arm bars, sweeps from half-guard, etc, being thrown... there's strenghth and conditioning involved there too.

Water/****

30 mins of free play.

On days with crushing warm ups sometimes we take it easier in free play. Sometimes we don't. But not exaggeration: all of our gis are soaked. When it's no gi. There's puddles on the floor.

Granted, this is training in Puerto Rico with no A/C. Full Gi, even in July and Aug.

this is pretty much just how we do it.

thats why i like the way our coaches run the warmup/conditioning. its all skill specific conditioning. not doing pushups or sit ups or what not, and its just enough to get your body ready to work hard. backrolls to handstand, shrimps, bear crawl, etc. and each drill is just from one end of the dojo to the other. but at the same time, the warm up drills change, depending on if we are doing that day, as in stand up or ground or working specific throws, escapes, etc. etc.

on a side note can i still be a kungfu guy if i dont train in a cma school anymore? :o

[Pork Chop]

Physical conditioning/exercises should be optional in MA class.


There are 3 different things we're talking about here:
1. pure strength & conditioning
2. live drills
3. learning new skills.

I think what I was trying to say in my rambling posts was this:
I can understand strength & conditioning being split from the martial art skills class, on the other hand, if I'm paying $150 a month for a 2 hour BJJ class consisting of 15 minutes of warm up, an hour and a half of learning technique after technique, and maybe 15 minutes of actual rolling, then it's a bit of a waste.

Strength & conditioning I can get that on my own time.

Live drills really do need to be done in class and they should somewhat simulate a live environment as far as intensity. This includes both refining technique (heavy bag, shadow) and refining application (sparring, defense drills); pad work tends to be a bit of both.

Learning new skills is the least physically taxing, and there are hard limits on anyone's ability to retain & apply new skills. Personally, I subscribe to the rule of 3s - as in 3 defenses/counters to each technique. Any more and you face a situation of having too many options, which slows your reaction time. That would cut down on the total number of techniques taught. As far as limiting the number of techniques taught at once, learning three new techniques at a time is more feasible than 10.

[Pork Chop]

People speak of Tabata's but very few have ever truly done them.
People speak of HIIT, but very few every do it.

I may be guilty of this, but I don't think so.
I mention tabatas in my blog, but the truth is, in the fitness classes I've been doing, we don't stick to a single protocol throughout the whole workout.
Sometimes it's tabatas (20seconds on, 10 seconds off), other times it's more like Taku's general fitness recommendations (30 seconds sprint, 1 minute active rest), other times I don't see any method whatsoever; it just hurts.
Usually I'm so burnt after 1 hour that I can barely drive home.
It makes me laugh at the idea of spending so many hours in the gym before.
Used to pride myself on being able to do things in conditioning that the people around me couldn't.
Now I know better.

Sad thing is, the ability not to gas in a fight is much more dependent on having the mental capacity to stay relaxed than anything I'm doing in the fitness classes. You're right, experience is cardio - it's knowing that truly good cardio is all about efficiency. I'm mostly doing these workouts for weight loss.

[Ray Pina]

Really good points by Pork Chop and Sanjuro regarding nerves, outside factors and conditioning.... pretty good thread. Interesting to read everyone's take.

Also, age is a factor. I was training balls to the walls up to about a year ago. Now with getting married and a shoulder injury that just won't go, I've slowed it down. But if I had an 18 year old son, he'd better be on the matt breaking his a$$.

There's no feeling like that spent, peaceful zone after training when you just sit back against the wall, too tired to even put water in your mouth right away.

Anyone have kids? When did you introduce them to training? How did that go?

[Indrafist]

Really good points by Pork Chop and Sanjuro regarding nerves, outside factors and conditioning.... pretty good thread. Interesting to read everyone's take.

Also, age is a factor. I was training balls to the walls up to about a year ago. Now with getting married and a shoulder injury that just won't go, I've slowed it down. But if I had an 18 year old son, he'd better be on the matt breaking his a$$.

There's no feeling like that spent, peaceful zone after training when you just sit back against the wall, too tired to even put water in your mouth right away.

Anyone have kids? When did you introduce them to training? How did that go?

I started my son with Judo aged 8 (away from training with me) and then he went on to do Muay Thai. Now at nearly 17 he wants TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I may be guilty of this, but I don't think so.
I mention tabatas in my blog, but the truth is, in the fitness classes I've been doing, we don't stick to a single protocol throughout the whole workout.
Sometimes it's tabatas (20seconds on, 10 seconds off), other times it's more like Taku's general fitness recommendations (30 seconds sprint, 1 minute active rest), other times I don't see any method whatsoever; it just hurts.
Usually I'm so burnt after 1 hour that I can barely drive home.
It makes me laugh at the idea of spending so many hours in the gym before.
Used to pride myself on being able to do things in conditioning that the people around me couldn't.
Now I know better.

Sad thing is, the ability not to gas in a fight is much more dependent on having the mental capacity to stay relaxed than anything I'm doing in the fitness classes. You're right, experience is cardio - it's knowing that truly good cardio is all about efficiency. I'm mostly doing these workouts for weight loss.

Tabata's , to get the fabled fat buring effect, at BALLS to the WALL for 20 sec and rest fro 10 for 8 cycles and IF you cna do all 8, you are NOT going balls to the wall.
Fact is that ANY HIIT that you do that lasts from more than 20 min is NOT HIIT and IF you can compete the WHOLE cycle, you are NOT doing them intense enough.
A typical Tababta is sprinting full out, full speed, hold nothing back, or 20 sec ( think trying to break the world record of the 200 meters) then walk for 10 seconds, then Sprint again( trying to run even FASTER, which is of course not possible) for another 20 seconds, walk for 10, etc, etc.
The thing is that IF you do it right you CAN'T do the 8 cycles and if you can, you are pretty much DONE for the day.
A correct Tabata is 5 min of moderate cardio to warm up, 8 cycles of 20 x 10 sec and then 5 min of very LOW cardio to "cool" down.
That is it, you are done, buried and probably puking.
You will also be "hot" for about 30 min AFTER your workout as you body is STILL burning calories.
Most people do HIIT like this:
they pace themselves at a higher pace than normal, rest 50% of the time it took to do the first set and repeat to what ever time frame they came up with.
The thing is that, the moment you PACE, you are NOT doing HIIT.

[Pork Chop]

Tabata's , to get the fabled fat buring effect, at BALLS to the WALL for 20 sec and rest fro 10 for 8 cycles and IF you cna do all 8, you are NOT going balls to the wall.
Fact is that ANY HIIT that you do that lasts from more than 20 min is NOT HIIT and IF you can compete the WHOLE cycle, you are NOT doing them intense enough.
A typical Tababta is sprinting full out, full speed, hold nothing back, or 20 sec ( think trying to break the world record of the 200 meters) then walk for 10 seconds, then Sprint again( trying to run even FASTER, which is of course not possible) for another 20 seconds, walk for 10, etc, etc.
The thing is that IF you do it right you CAN'T do the 8 cycles and if you can, you are pretty much DONE for the day.
A correct Tabata is 5 min of moderate cardio to warm up, 8 cycles of 20 x 10 sec and then 5 min of very LOW cardio to "cool" down.
That is it, you are done, buried and probably puking.
You will also be "hot" for about 30 min AFTER your workout as you body is STILL burning calories.
Most people do HIIT like this:
they pace themselves at a higher pace than normal, rest 50% of the time it took to do the first set and repeat to what ever time frame they came up with.
The thing is that, the moment you PACE, you are NOT doing HIIT.

puking... check
hot.... check
can't finish... check

I mentioned that we don't stick to any single protocol the whole workout, and I wouldn't say that even half of the 1 hour workout involves the high intensity intervals.
We do have portions of the workout where we got ballz out for 20 to 30 seconds, followed by either 10 seconds of active rest, or up to a minute of more-active rest.
i'll freely admit it's not pure tabatas, more like tabata-inspired.
The high intensity portions of the workout are definitely definitely high intensity though, some of the hardest workouts I've ever done - harder than crossfit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

puking... check
hot.... check
can't finish... check

I mentioned that we don't stick to any single protocol the whole workout, and I wouldn't say that even half of the 1 hour workout involves the high intensity intervals.
We do have portions of the workout where we got ballz out for 20 to 30 seconds, followed by either 10 seconds of active rest, or up to a minute of more-active rest.
i'll freely admit it's not pure tabatas, more like tabata-inspired.
The high intensity portions of the workout are definitely definitely high intensity though, some of the hardest workouts I've ever done - harder than crossfit.

Don't talk to me about crossfit *spits like angry russian*.
HIIT is a great protocol and Tabata's the the extreme version of them and while they work great, for most HIIT is more than good enough.
Throwing them to break up monotony of "moderate cardio" is what most people do and that is probably the best way to work them.
Besides, they work BEST when used by guys who have "hit the wall" with moderate cadio rather than for those that want to used them instead of moderate cardio.

[Frost]

Don't talk to me about crossfit *spits like angry russian*.
HIIT is a great protocol and Tabata's the the extreme version of them and while they work great, for most HIIT is more than good enough.
Throwing them to break up monotony of "moderate cardio" is what most people do and that is probably the best way to work them.
Besides, they work BEST when used by guys who have "hit the wall" with moderate cadio rather than for those that want to used them instead of moderate cardio.

please lets not talk about tabata's, (or crossfit come to that), almost no one actually understands what Tabatas study was about how he did it or the results he got (it had nothing to do with fat loss), going balls to the wall and making yourself sick is not doing what tabata did, its just being stupid (ronin this is not aimed at you i know you know the study) just a general statement :mad:

[bawang]

exhaustion breaks down peoples mental defences. this is kung fu scamming 101.

[sanjuro_ronin]

please lets not talk about tabata's, (or crossfit come to that), almost no one actually understands what Tabatas study was about how he did it or the results he got (it had nothing to do with fat loss), going balls to the wall and making yourself sick is not doing what tabata did, its just being stupid (ronin this is not aimed at you i know you know the study) just a general statement :mad:

There is NO way to immulate the Tabata study without the proper equipment and the only way to get close to the 120% of the VO2 max in such a short period of time is, "balls to the wall".
:mad:


And yes, I know I am JUST being argumentative but I am in one of those moods !
:p

[Frost]

There is NO way to immulate the Tabata study without the proper equipment and the only way to get close to the 120% of the VO2 max in such a short period of time is, "balls to the wall".
:mad:


And yes, I know I am JUST being argumentative but I am in one of those moods !
:p

120% would be bad enough, he went for 170%.........try getting close to htat without a gun to your head

Well theres no point being here if your not going to be argumentative , maybe you should start an arguement about the differing effects aerobic training has compared to anearobic and why you shouldnt train both at the same time...that should be fun :)