Relative Racism and Chinese Kung Fu

[Ray Pina]

Yesterday Bawang posted: "lol @ silly gwailos trying to find kung fu in shanghai and taiwan"

While that is definitely in the neighborhood of "Silly *****s trying to find hamburgers in the U.S." it doesn't account for folks like B.K Frantzis and the recently deceased Robert Smith.

I personally was put in touch with some good BJJ by an Australian who lived in Asia for 7 years and moved to San Juan, PR three years ago. He put me in touch with the South East Asian BJJ Federation.... which has a school in Shanghai.

I also have friends at Renzos who get paid to fight and run seminars internationally.... I always ask if they've seen anything worth following up on.

But in the end, it comes down to the almighty dollar. One can get a 16 year old girl for the night in Guanzhou for $175 .... they send them to your room unrequested (offer never taken). $1,000 for anyone who can produce a Chinese boxer of note, willing and able to demonstrate against a novice western boxer..... the Taiji man I trained with had power and listening skills but nothing worth of note. And my host found and paid for him because he knows of my interest and doesn't need my money. He's a Shanghai multi-millionaire.

Finding TCMA in China is easy. Finding good TCMA.... as likely as in Nebraska. All the Kung Fu we see here that is nowhere near modern standards: where did it come from?

[David Jamieson]

Pretty much anything Bawang cracks about needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

racism is at play in all corners of society in all societies to some extent.

China is a big place, It is the largest country in the world population wise and the third largest country geographically and a great deal of that population still lives in the rural areas of the country.

China's social constructs are very different as well and the idea of shopping around for martial arts is made easier in the same way that shopping for shoes is made easy.

It takes a bit of effort just to find out where you can get a pair of manolo's and then, it will take some money to get them.

Walmart offers a shoe that looks kinda like it for cheaper and it's readily available.

Sorry for the shoe analogy, but it does apply here. As an aside, reading your post it seems a slight bit racist in and of itself! :eek:

Zou Shiming for instance has plenty of western boxing skills. TO the tune of Olympic gold medal skills in western boxing.

I think people need to move away from the idea that Kung Fu is sport. It can have that component, but overall, it ain't sport. San Da is sport.

[Snipsky]

I just don't get it. if people hate kung fu so much why are they here on a Kung Fu forum? to bully us? WTF?

[Ray Pina]

What's the bullying?

Someone said westerners couldn't find instruction in Asia.... I pointed out two popular examples (Frantzis/SMith) well before the age of internet and global mindset.

The other example is, if westerners can't find "the good stuff" then where is it? There's no shortage of CHinese American teachers in the US/Canada. Everyone on here learned Kung Fu with a link to China at some point.

This isn't bullying. It's critical thinking.

It's not unlike American teachers saying they deserve more money and someone pointing out that American kids aren't ranked in the top 10 globally in math or science. Nowhere else do people request a raise for a worse performance.

Some people get upset when their shortcomings are pointed out. Sorry, but one can't control how others react to stimulus. Some get better. Some complain and want things dumbed down to a new standard.

Doesn't mean I hate American education or Kung Fu. I don't like the trends I see in both.

[hskwarrior]

Doesn't mean I hate American education or Kung Fu. I don't like the trends I see in both.

Kung Fu is a personal quest. Kung fu has everything you may need in it. its up to you to train them. yeah i agree as well, i don't like the trends in SOME kung fu. Regardless, I don't keep those trends i may not like. i'll work it so whatever i teach should be without those trends.

for myself, i agree with the idea if you hate kung fu so much then why come to a TCMA forum? i really don't get why. Why not go to one of those MMA forums, they love to bash kung fu don't they? what i said here is in general. not picking you out Mr. Pina.

Mr Pina, what is it you consider GOOD STUFF in the realm of Kung Fu?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good kung fu is easy to find as long as you KNOW what to look for and what good kung fu is.
You can find it in almost every part of the world.
The issue is that bad kung fu is more readily visible.

I don't see a need to go the China to find good kung fu, just as there is no need to go to Japan to find good judo or Okinawa to find good karate, etc.

[Ray Pina]

Kung Fu is a personal quest. Kung fu has everything you may need in it. its up to you to train them. yeah i agree as well, i don't like the trends in SOME kung fu. Regardless, I don't keep those trends i may not like. i'll work it so whatever i teach should be without those trends.

for myself, i agree with the idea if you hate kung fu so much then why come to a TCMA forum? i really don't get why. Why not go to one of those MMA forums, they love to bash kung fu don't they? what i said here is in general. not picking you out Mr. Pina.

Mr Pina, what is it you consider GOOD STUFF in the realm of Kung Fu?

The thing I always found most valuable from TCMA is its trapping and sticking. It's unorthodox and catches many westerners not exposed to it by surprise. Also the way you can combine "short power" with trapping/sticking and get a strike in while others are pulling back.... so essentially it's a timing thing. It's not a 1....2 rhythm. It's a 1(jam)..1.5 (hit) rhythm.

Believe it or not, I really like Chinese culture in general and its martial arts, particularly Hsing-I and Taiji.... I know I'd like Ba Gua but bummed I didn't get to see more of it.

I liked Wing Chun until I learned Hsing-I.

[hskwarrior]

The thing I always found most valuable from TCMA is its trapping and sticking. It's unorthodox and catches many westerners not exposed to it by surprise. Also the way you can combine "short power" with trapping/sticking and get a strike in while others are pulling back.... so essentially it's a timing thing. It's not a 1....2 rhythm. It's a 1(jam)..1.5 (hit) rhythm.

Believe it or not, I really like Chinese culture in general and its martial arts, particularly Hsing-I and Taiji.... I know I'd like Ba Gua but bummed I didn't get to see more of it.

I liked Wing Chun until I learned Hsing-I.

You sound like you'd be a good fit for Choy Lee Fut. :D

[RenDaHai]

Y
But in the end, it comes down to the almighty dollar. One can get a 16 year old girl for the night in Guanzhou for $175 .... they send them to your room unrequested (offer never taken).

I hope you mean 175 chinese rmb or your getting ripped off! ;)

Shanghai has some good masters, but few proper schools. Usually a few guys meeting in a park.

In Shanghai XinYi LiuHe is a great style to look for. I used to know a place but I don't know if its still there...

[GeneChing]

You sound like you'd be a good fit for Choy Lee Fut. :D
I bet you say that to all the guys.... ;)

[hskwarrior]

I bet you say that to all the guys....

Yes, to catchers only. LOL

[Ray Pina]

Shanghai has some good masters, but few proper schools. Usually a few guys meeting in a park.

In Shanghai XinYi LiuHe is a great style to look for. I used to know a place but I don't know if its still there...


I figure that's the case. On the Kung Fu side of things of my two favorite teachers, one didn't have a school but used his brother's school after hours for our sparring (a Southern Mantis man trained under Milton and Norman Chin) and the other was my master, who was long retired but had a Stradivarius repair business/training hall a bunch of flights up on Bowery St.... and then just built a training hall in his back yard. I had a hard time finding him in NY with perfect command of English and a Chinese American friend pointing the way.

There's good stuff out there. We just need to demand more of ourselves.

[Jimbo]

Having trained CMA in Taiwan and the U.S., I know you can find good kung fu, but you have to look for it. And you have to know what you're looking for, for your own goals. Some people actually have the idea that when you go over there, everyone is doing kung fu; that behind every corner and every bush is a KF fighter and schools up and down every block.

Well, everyone there does NOT know kung fu. A lot of the people I met in Taiwan didn't know much more about CMA than most Americans. I encountered some people there who put down CMA and extolled the superiority of TKD and/or Japanese arts. Ironic, because my ancestry is Japanese.

I was lucky to have found a good northern-style teacher there, but prior to finding him, I wasted 3 years with an old teacher who, although he possessed good skills, was not a good teacher. At that time in my life, I wasn't sure what I was looking for, just that I wanted to learn kung fu, and went with the first teacher I was brought to. I was aware that you needed to look for it, but I got complacent. I was naive and stuck it out, patiently waiting for the 'good stuff' that never came...not just for me, but for anybody I saw there. It was my own fault for staying so long, but live and learn. Under my second northern-style teacher, I made rapid progress and had many great experiences with that group.

Back in the U.S., I was very lucky to have access to a very good CLF teacher; I was actually introduced to him by a friend who was one of his top students. So it goes. For some people, access to good kung fu will be more difficult due to location/lack of choices. You may simply have to travel whatever distance to get what you're looking for.

[Cory Nyenhuis]

Not hard to find good TCMA in Nebraska.

[Taixuquan99]

Bawang is right. Westerners studying kung fu in China are notorious for being ripped off, unless they have connections or are themselves well informed on the topic and selective.

Money sometimes just makes matters worse for foreignors trying to study kung fu there.

[Taixuquan99]

Additionally, the best I met in the city I lived in wanted nothing to do with people who bought their kung fu.

[hskwarrior]

The thing I always found most valuable from TCMA is its trapping and sticking. It's unorthodox and catches many westerners not exposed to it by surprise.

You should give Choy Lee Fut a try. we have alot of traps, powerful strikes, and we like to fight. seems to fit you nicely.

[Faruq]

Additionally, the best I met in the city I lived in wanted nothing to do with people who bought their kung fu.

How do you recommend finding teachers in the U.S. who are the best, and who have their own businesses or professions and therefore don't teach in or have TCMA schools. Actually, that's pretty much how Mike Doucet describes Pak Mei Sifu on his website.

[Jimbo]

Bawang is right. Westerners studying kung fu in China are notorious for being ripped off, unless they have connections or are themselves well informed on the topic and selective.

Money sometimes just makes matters worse for foreignors trying to study kung fu there.

Pretty much true. I suppose I was lucky that the first teacher I studied with in Taiwan charged me half of what the other foreigners paid per month; in fact, not much more than the Chinese paid.

As far as finding teachers who are good but don't teach as their profession, word-of-mouth is probably the only way. Then you'd have to check it out to see if his art/emphasis/skill level/students' skill levels are what you're looking for. I know that probably doesn't make it any easier to find one, unless they are also listed or mentioned online somewhere. But there are good teachers who teach professionally, too, so don't discount someone out of hand simply because they teach out of a school, without checking it out first.

[Ray Pina]

Maybe the reason TCMA isn't producing a plethora of fighters today is that good teachers aren't making themselves available... which is a shame. So we now have WuShu.

Maybe the reason TCMA isn't producing a plethora of fighters today is that it isn't attracting students that would be suitable to carry on a martial tradition.

.... maybe we're already a couple generations into this trend. Where today's "best teachers" are in fact those students who chose TCMA over boxing or kick boxing because in reality, they didn't want to fight.

The avenues have always been there. They're there now.

[TenTigers]

yep. Like it or not, There still are closed door schools, run by excellent teachers who are not looking to fill their school with consumers, but are only "Looking for a few good men."
They're not looking for a paycheck, or for their name on the front cover of Inside Kung-Fu (r.i.p.)heck, I know some who don't want people to even know they are teaching.
You still need to be recommended, and have an introduction.

[David Jamieson]

yep. Like it or not, There still are closed door schools, run by excellent teachers who are not looking to fill their school with consumers, but are only "Looking for a few good men."
They're not looking for a paycheck, or for their name on the front cover of Inside Kung-Fu (r.i.p.)heck, I know some who don't want people to even know they are teaching.
You still need to be recommended, and have an introduction.

I concur. In fact, it might be even more underground again now.
Still, there's lot's of good schools out there too teaching the public openly.

[Faruq]

Also, I remember someone posting a few years back that their teacher describing their training back in Asia basically just amounted to a list of human rights violations, lol. So who's gonna open themselves up to a lawsuit just so they can teach the right way and turn out students who can actually use the art as they can.

[hskwarrior]

yep. Like it or not, There still are closed door schools, run by excellent teachers who are not looking to fill their school with consumers, but are only "Looking for a few good men."
They're not looking for a paycheck, or for their name on the front cover of Inside Kung-Fu (r.i.p.)heck, I know some who don't want people to even know they are teaching.
You still need to be recommended, and have an introduction.

straight up old school! "LONG LIVE the old school" schools.

I could care less how many people want to bash on kung fu saying people don't want to fight. but for some reason they seem to over look the fact that not everyone wants to be a fighter. some people want to take gung fu or TMA as THEIR way of getting in shape, having fun, being apart of something bigger than just "FIGHTING". I can't even count any more how many times i hear "i don't want to be a fighter, i just want to learn the system". IS that wrong? N to the O!

[TenTigers]

straight up old school! "LONG LIVE the old school" schools.

I could care less how many people want to bash on kung fu saying people don't want to fight. but for some reason they seem to over look the fact that not everyone wants to be a fighter. some people want to take gung fu or TMA as THEIR way of getting in shape, having fun, being apart of something bigger than just "FIGHTING". I can't even count any more how many times i hear "i don't want to be a fighter, i just want to learn the system". IS that wrong? N to the O!
at most boxing and mma gyms, you have a core of fighters who really do want to fight, and the rest want the workout, some sparring, and just to improve their skills.
But, that's really the way it's always been. Every school I was at, there were a small handful of guys who wanted to fight, and then there was everyone else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a teacher choose to be private and to not commercialize his teachings and only teach a small handfull of students that is his choice.
I would HOPE that his students are smart enough to go outside those teachings however because that small and isolated a group will hinder development of their Martial skills.

[hskwarrior]

If a teacher choose to be private and to not commercialize his teachings and only teach a small handfull of students that is his choice.
I would HOPE that his students are smart enough to go outside those teachings however because that small and isolated a group will hinder development of their Martial skills.

Aside from fighting, lets forget fighting. what skills would be hindered by a small group?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Aside from fighting, lets forget fighting. what skills would be hindered by a small group?

You say apart from fighting as if that is some minor part in a martial art !
LOL !
You ability to USE your MA effectively vs an unknown opponent is directly proportional on how well you can use it against someone presenting you with a different skillset than you are used to.
If the UFC taught us ANYTHING, it was THAT.

[hskwarrior]

You say apart from fighting as if that is some minor part in a martial art !
LOL !
You ability to USE your MA effectively vs an unknown opponent is directly proportional on how well you can use it against someone presenting you with a different skillset than you are used to.
If the UFC taught us ANYTHING, it was THAT.

I DID say forget about fighting. there is MUCH more to TMA than fighting.

To practice a form, you don't have to worry about fighting. its just a form.

You also don't need to know to fight if you are doing lion dancing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I DID say forget about fighting. there is MUCH more to TMA than fighting.

To practice a form, you don't have to worry about fighting. its just a form.

You also don't need to know to fight if you are doing lion dancing.

You don't need anyone else to practice forms either.
As for Lion dancing, well...I know that traditions die hard for some and that's fine but it means nothing to me.
I don't know of anyone that joins a TCMA to learn to lion dance.
All the anecdotal evidence we have of the old timers and old times training seems to indicate small personal classes AND it also indicates LOTS of fighting OUTSIDE of those classes to test the skills.

[TenTigers]

I don't know of anyone that joins a TCMA to learn to lion dance.

actually, Lion Dance was one of my faves. Still is.

[hskwarrior]

As for Lion dancing, well...I know that traditions die hard for some and that's fine but it means nothing to me.

As long as there are Chinese People there will always be the need for Lion Dancing. Its not something that won't just Die out because FIGHTERS think it should.


I don't know of anyone that joins a TCMA to learn to lion dance.

Well, i can't say i understand. cause where i live, we got some of the worlds BEST lion dancers here.

LION DANCE COMPETITION: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PvRUCU0g8E&feature=related


All the anecdotal evidence we have of the old timers and old times training seems to indicate small personal classes AND it also indicates LOTS of fighting OUTSIDE of those classes to test the skills.

sure. we all were encouraged to go out and fight. for some it was the point tournaments, for others it was the street. Those days were a little different than today. Now schools have to worry about being sued when their students fight outside of the school.

Today, fighting has made its way to the ring while on the streets fists were replaced by Guns.

[TenTigers]

we just started a local "Fight League," where several schools get together, each week at another school and have sparring. It should prove interesting, fun, and educational.

[sanjuro_ronin]

we just started a local "Fight League," where several schools get together, each week at another school and have sparring. It should prove interesting, fun, and educational.

I am sure that the pros will outweight the cons.


Look guys I am NOT syaing that fighting is all there is.
God no!
At 42 and retired from competitive fighting for years now I KNOW that there is A LOT more to TCMA than fighting.
Doesn't change the fact that without it being priority at SOME POINT in training, a student will never become a "master".

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually, Lion Dance was one of my faves. Still is.

And you joined and took up TCMA to DO LION DANCING?
Of course not, no one does.

[hskwarrior]

And you joined and took up TCMA to DO LION DANCING?
Of course not, no one does.

Lion Dancing and TCMA go hand in hand.


Look guys I am NOT syaing that fighting is all there is.
God no!
At 42 and retired from competitive fighting for years now I KNOW that there is A LOT more to TCMA than fighting.
Doesn't change the fact that without it being priority at SOME POINT in training, a student will never become a "master".

OF COURSE, Priority is knowing how to effectively use your gung fu. its pretty much a given. I come from a school of the OLD SCHOOL and prefer that way and i pass it down that way but with modern approaches. BUT, does an average everyday person who knows Kung Fu have to be up to SPORT FIGHTING STANDARDS? I really don't think they should. Most are satisfied knowing they can handle anything at the street level.

I agree, a sifu, a master, or whatever you want to call it should have some fighting knowledge and applicable skill. Unfortunately not all teachers have been in a fight other than a verbal argument. then we have the streetwise, tough teachers who've been through fights, gangfights, getting jump and doing the jumping. its usually these teachers who get called "thugs, ruffians, or even gangsters".......all because they wanted to do was make sure they hard work wasn't wasted.

Still, IDK about other styles, but, CLF HAS returned to its fighting roots and are hitting the ring much more than before. In hong kong next month is a big CLF fighting competition

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/311147_2296256681357_1097285315_32677025_180156464 7_n.jpg

Now i can't wait to see the video for this. i know a few fighters going in on this

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lion Dancing and TCMA go hand in hand.

So when you decided to take up TCMA the first thing in your mind was " I can't wait to put a paper machee lions head and dance around", eh?
:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

So when you decided to take up TCMA the first thing in your mind was " I can't wait to put a paper machee lions head and dance around", eh?

I wouldn't expect you to understand. But, believe it or not, all you have to do is look around a bit and see that Lion Dancing is bigger than you imagine. anyone who can't appreciate lion dancing is in an extremely small minority.

Also, getting paid $500 or alot more for a 30 minute lion dance, are you telling me that isn't a good bonus to lion dancing?

[TenTigers]

So when you decided to take up TCMA the first thing in your mind was " I can't wait to put a paper machee lions head and dance around", eh?
:rolleyes:
yep. That, and the silk pj's, and I look FABULOUS!
Also, I am now great at interior decorating, and sing show tunes in karaoke.
Why, ya wanna make something of it? I'll give you such a pinch!

[TenTigers]

Also, getting paid $500 or alot more for a 30 minute lion dance, are you telling me that isn't a good bonus to lion dancing?
Lion Dancing gets the traditional schools through the hard times of winter, when enrollment drops down, people go on vacation, and saunter in "right after New Year." at around..February....

[hskwarrior]

where else do you get to wear the cool lion dance pants? LOL

http://asian-culture-shop.com/bookpic/20089/200896233650.jpg

[Hebrew Hammer]

I still don't understand why your relatives are racist?

Good martial arts of any style are hard to find. Good training and better instruction are more important, regardless of style. Something can be derived from each style and no style is completely effective in all situations...what really matters is your ability to apply learned skills when it counts.

I loved CLF, but won't take it just from anyone, Lion Dancing is cool! I see it as more a cultural training than martial.

As far as making money from dancing...I'd prefer not to talk about my seedy past...lets just say "Once you go Jew, nothing else will do!" :eek:

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzy94rWx7DQ

this is real lion dance, none of that poosy cantonese bs

HARDCORE

[hskwarrior]

nah that was garbage...

this is the real deal....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXUKEvjBcC8&feature=related

and THIS is hardcore:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTqIjOSsXV4

[Darthlawyer]

Westerners attracted to TCMA seem far more prone to the idea that its more important to have the really, really real(tm)(c)(R) kung fu(tm). People get confused if they see multiple forms named the same thing, but one has the front kick before the side kick, but another has the side kick before the front kick, and one has two front kicks. Somehow, we believe that one of those is the really super real shaolin (tm) kung fu and the others are less effective.
I really believe the best Kung Fu lesson we can learn is in the movie Kung Fu Panda, about how there is no "secret ingredient".

Actually, I don't think Westerners are alone in this mindset. Perhaps its the fact that Kung Fu movies foster a brand-loyal type mindset.

Regardless, for some insane reason, a lot of us continue to believe that if I'm performing the same sequence of moves once in a while that some guy did 500 years ago that I'm somehow going to be successful in a fight against someone who does the same move over and over again on a heavy bag, and other more-streamlined training.

We further get into these ridiculous lines of thinking that we have these amazing "secrets" to "generating power" that can only be trained to people who have been studying under Master Obi-Wan Miyagi Fei Hung for at least 5 years. Then we can learn that you generate more power punching by pushing off your rear leg, turning your body into the punch with your waist and shoulder, and by standing and punching a whole lot, over and over again. Why? Because people trying to Market Kung Fu a long time ago scammed their students this way, so we expect to be scammed the same way!

[Foiling Fist]

Bawang is right. Westerners studying kung fu in China are notorious for being ripped off, unless they have connections or are themselves well informed on the topic and selective.

Money sometimes just makes matters worse for foreignors trying to study kung fu there.

This is the track for fleecing.

[SPJ]

buyers beware

always

domestic or foreign alike.

:)