Best Kung Fu schools nearby

[Mark13]

Does anyone know or can recomend which are some of the best Kung Fu schools on Long Island, NY that have very good Sifu's or places that teach well authentic Kung Fu?

I have been to a Kwoon before that was not so trust worthy so it's important I ask.

[RWilson]

What are you lOoking for in your training?

If you are looking for forms then try a Kung Fu school. If you are looking to learn to fight than you might want to avoid kung Fu schools since most here can agree that Kung Fu schools do not spar.

[TenTigers]

R. Wilson sez:"If you are looking for forms then try a Kung Fu school. If you are looking to learn to fight than you might want to avoid kung Fu schools since most here can agree that Kung Fu schools do not spar."

What'chu talkin 'bout Willson?!:confused:

Pretty much every major Kung-Fu school on Long Island does spar:
1) Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy-spars
2) Ling Nam Siu Lum Kung-Fu Academy-spars
3)Green Cloud Kung-Fu-spars
4)Lung Fu P'ai -Spars
5) Ortiz Chinese Boxing Academy-spars
6) Shaolin Lohan Ch'uan-spars
7) Chris Serra Wing Chun -spars
8) Alan Lee Wing Chun-spars

[RWilson]

R. Wilson sez:"If you are looking for forms then try a Kung Fu school. If you are looking to learn to fight than you might want to avoid kung Fu schools since most here can agree that Kung Fu schools do not spar."

What'chu talkin 'bout Willson?!:confused:

Pretty much every major Kung-Fu school on Long Island does spar:
1) Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy-spars
2) Ling Nam Siu Lum Kung-Fu Academy-spars
3)Green Cloud Kung-Fu-spars
4)Lung Fu P'ai -Spars
5) Ortiz Chinese Boxing Academy-spars
6) Shaolin Lohan Ch'uan-spars
7) Chris Serra Wing Chun -spars


That is good to hear about these schools. Long Island Kung Fu is much better than the places I have seen.

[Mark13]

What are you lOoking for in your training?

If you are looking for forms then try a Kung Fu school. If you are looking to learn to fight than you might want to avoid kung Fu schools since most here can agree that Kung Fu schools do not spar.

Im looking to do Kung Fu as part of a daily lifestyle, because it was something I was intersted in when I was much younger but never had the chance to



R. Wilson sez:"If you are looking for forms then try a Kung Fu school. If you are looking to learn to fight than you might want to avoid kung Fu schools since most here can agree that Kung Fu schools do not spar."

What'chu talkin 'bout Willson?!:confused:

Pretty much every major Kung-Fu school on Long Island does spar:
1) Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy-spars
2) Ling Nam Siu Lum Kung-Fu Academy-spars
3)Green Cloud Kung-Fu-spars
4)Lung Fu P'ai -Spars
5) Ortiz Chinese Boxing Academy-spars
6) Shaolin Lohan Ch'uan-spars
7) Chris Serra Wing Chun -spars
8) Alan Lee Wing Chun-spars

Out of most of the schools listed of LI, which would be the best to choose with an instructor who's willing to put in the time to work with you and a reasonable price?

[TenTigers]

Out of most of the schools listed of LI, which would be the best to choose with an instructor who's willing to put in the time to work with you and a reasonable price?
Why, Ten Tigers, of course! ;)


What you need to do is check out all of them and find the one that you feel is the best match for you. Sometimes, it boils down to chemistry.

[Mark13]

Why, Ten Tigers, of course! ;)


What you need to do is check out all of them and find the one that you feel is the best match for you. Sometimes, it boils down to chemistry.

Hey thanks! :)

But I just heard from a few that Ling Nam and Chris Serras can be a bit over, trying to charge you more than the other schools and that their lineage is not accurate. I don't want to judge without checking them out but I don't want to waste money if their not recieving the training I want. Thats why im asking what anyones experience was like at any of these schools since they don't allow you to try out their class or I think even watch.

[RWilson]

Hey thanks! :)

But I just heard from a few that Ling Nam and Chris Serras can be a bit over, trying to charge you more than the other schools and that their lineage is not accurate. I don't want to judge without checking them out but I don't want to waste money if their not recieving the training I want. Thats why im asking what anyones experience was like at any of these schools since they don't allow you to try out their class or I think even watch.

Every school I have been to allows you to watch a class. This is the industry standard. As far as lineage is concerned who cares? As long as he teaches you what you want and it seems you want forms. That is fine.

The way dofferent schools charge depends mostly on location. If instructor A's location is more expensive than instructor B's than the former HAS to charge more. Do not think you are getting "your money's worth". Often tuition goes to covering rent and that is about it.

[Mark13]

Every school I have been to allows you to watch a class. This is the industry standard. As far as lineage is concerned who cares? As long as he teaches you what you want and it seems you want forms. That is fine.

The way dofferent schools charge depends mostly on location. If instructor A's location is more expensive than instructor B's than the former HAS to charge more. Do not think you are getting "your money's worth". Often tuition goes to covering rent and that is about it.

I see now, but why do some not like if you try a class? Is there a special reason? Besides at Ten Tigers do you know any of the other Sifu's like what the experience with them is like? Wish I had alot of money so I could just go to all of them :)

[RWilson]

I see now, but why do some not like if you try a class? Is there a special reason? Besides at Ten Tigers do you know any of the other Sifu's like what the experience with them is like? Wish I had alot of money so I could just go to all of them :)

YOu will have to take it up with each individual school. Some schools will only let you try a class only after you have signed up online meaning they have your money already. And then they will give you a problem when you try to cancel.

[maxattck]

I trained at ling Nam Siu sum for a couple of years. The school teaches hung gar and wing chun. In my time there it was form only school, with some one step and pad drills. It may have changed since my time there, its been a few years. Ten tigers may have more recent information about what they are doing there nowadays.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would recommend Ten Tigers because we ALL know Rik and we all know what type of person he is and what his views on Kung fu are, so you are already one step ahead of the curve on that.
I would train with Rik in a heartbeat.

[David Jamieson]

I would play guitar with, ride bike with and train with Rik.
All on the same day. :p

[RWilson]

I trained at ling Nam Siu sum for a couple of years. The school teaches hung gar and wing chun. In my time there it was form only school, with some one step and pad drills. It may have changed since my time there, its been a few years. Ten tigers may have more recent information about what they are doing there nowadays.

Mike Patterson said that 50% of what he teaches is forms and he is considered the cream of the crop when it comes to kung fu teachers that teach fighting. The point is is that you cannot get away from forms when doing tcma. If you do not want to do forms than do not do Chinese martial arts. Simple.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mike Patterson said that 50% of what he teaches is forms and he is considered the cream of the crop when it comes to kung fu teachers that teach fighting. The point is is that you cannot get away from forms when doing tcma. If you do not want to do forms than do not do Chinese martial arts. Simple.

Where did Shifu Patterson say that?
I thought he said that majority of what he trains COMES from forms, not that 50% of what they do is "forms".

[Lucas]

You should def go see tentigers !!!!

[maxattck]

I have nothing against forms, but when a school does not spar it loses something important in my opinion. I did leave tcma, and went to BJJ, and recently when I felt the need to strike again joined a Kyokushin school. While sparing at the kyokushin school I use traps I learnt in wing chun, and even some of the clf I learned years ago.

I was just answering the op question, about sparing rwilson. Personals I could care less if a person just wants to do forms without sparing.

[TenTigers]

mark13-check your pm's
btw-I know that Sifu Michael's lineage is lineage is NOT suspect..he was the first Hung-Ga school to open under Yee Chi-Wai's blessing, and he trained Wing Chun with Robert Chu, who you can get in touch with right here on these forums-Chusaulei. There will always be haters who use the boards as their personal smear campaign. You really need to visit each school. Ling Nam Siu Lum also offers a free intro class.

(ahem) we also offer free intro classes...;-)


as far as lineage goes, it does count for integrity of the system, but there are also people could've been the worst students under the best teachers/lineages..so what does that mean?

[RWilson]

I have nothing against forms, but when a school does not spar it loses something important in my opinion. I did leave tcma, and went to BJJ, and recently when I felt the need to strike again joined a Kyokushin school. While sparing at the kyokushin school I use traps I learnt in wing chun, and even some of the clf I learned years ago.

I was just answering the op question, about sparing rwilson. Personals I could care less if a person just wants to do forms without sparing.

The schools have seen sparred but the sparring took place outside of regular class. We got hurt a lot and the teacher did not want regulars getting hurt. Maybe the sparring took place in a separate class.

I agree with you. Schools that do not have sparring are missing an important aspect.

[TenTigers]

The schools have seen sparred but the sparring took place outside of regular class. We got hurt a lot and the teacher did not want regulars getting hurt. Maybe the sparring took place in a separate class.

yeah, I've seen that. I can't say I agree with it.
Although many schools have additional separate sparring/san-da classes, but are well supervised and follow strict guidelines. This is what we do. We have sparring during class, but also have separate classes where we focus strictly on sparring.

[Mark13]

mark13-check your pm's
btw-I know that Sifu Michael's lineage is lineage is NOT suspect..he was the first Hung-Ga school to open under Yee Chi-Wai's blessing, and he trained Wing Chun with Robert Chu, who you can get in touch with right here on these forums-Chusaulei. There will always be haters who use the boards as their personal smear campaign. You really need to visit each school. Ling Nam Siu Lum also offers a free intro class.

(ahem) we also offer free intro classes...;-)


as far as lineage goes, it does count for integrity of the system, but there are also people could've been the worst students under the best teachers/lineages..so what does that mean?

Thanks,

Right Hung-Ga I heard he did was under Yee Chi. Yes haters I can understand and I guess the money thing has to due with location, I will check the schools out first to see what I think but is he a patient guy or does he like to rush you out of class fast to be on his way? There was a Kung Fu guy in Plainview who didn't seem as interested in teaching, as much as he was for money. Think it was also associated with a Kempo school.

[RWilson]

Where did Shifu Patterson say that?
I thought he said that majority of what he trains COMES from forms, not that 50% of what they do is "forms".

Here's where it is:
http://204.202.22.188/forum/showthread.php?t=61651&page=2


Mike Patterson said:
"From form we learn integration. Forms give us the end "frame" of motion for body kinetic alignment upon delivery of force. From form we also develop transitional strength. Form is VERY important. But not at the expense of other training. I.E. Comprehensive and appropriate "layered" drills to develop certain essential skill sets, resistance training, percussion training, strength training and endurance trainiing. To focus on form alone is futile. But to remove form entirely (which I will say is impossible in a moment with an anecdote) is equally futile.

At a seminar for MMA folks, a muay thai based fellow asked me a similar question and received a similar answer. Whereupon he said words to the effect of "I don't believe in forms at all." I asked him to assist me in a little demo and brought him out onto the floor.

I extended my hand with a pad and asked him to kick it with his best round kick. He did so after a few misgivings. I then said to him; "Now, describe to me how you just now performed that kick as if I were completely ignorant." After a few questions for clarification of what I wanted him to do, he began to in detail tell me about when and how he stepped his front foot, when and how he rotated his waist, when and how he counterbalanced his rotational force, etc.

When done, I said to him.. "Dude, that's form." You object to what you call form as long organized patterns of movement. But all movement, to be performed properly, has a "form". You're just used to doing small mini forms revolving around one or two movements only.

Form in traditional chinese arts is a lviing text book. It is a construct for the development of kinetic potential, a source of theory and tactical overlay perspective and a means of cultivating fitness/endurance in the body. It is also a means of evaluation of performance and skill capabilities. I.E.. if your balance falls apart at high speed on this or that movement, you either have work left to do or you have a mistaken perspective of that particular mechanic and it needs to be corrected.

To me, form is of essential value. If I were to try and percentage it out for you, I'd say my fighters had about a 50% focus on form. And the rest of what I named above (drills to develop certain essential skill sets, resistance training, percussion training, strength training and endurance trainiing) rotated in terms of percentage allotted depending on deficiency seen within form or performanc of form."


Right at the end it says his fighters had 50% forms focus which leaves 50% time for everything else. I am not badmouthing. Just stating a fact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's where it is:
http://204.202.22.188/forum/showthread.php?t=61651&page=2


Mike Patterson said:
"From form we learn integration. Forms give us the end "frame" of motion for body kinetic alignment upon delivery of force. From form we also develop transitional strength. Form is VERY important. But not at the expense of other training. I.E. Comprehensive and appropriate "layered" drills to develop certain essential skill sets, resistance training, percussion training, strength training and endurance trainiing. To focus on form alone is futile. But to remove form entirely (which I will say is impossible in a moment with an anecdote) is equally futile.

At a seminar for MMA folks, a muay thai based fellow asked me a similar question and received a similar answer. Whereupon he said words to the effect of "I don't believe in forms at all." I asked him to assist me in a little demo and brought him out onto the floor.

I extended my hand with a pad and asked him to kick it with his best round kick. He did so after a few misgivings. I then said to him; "Now, describe to me how you just now performed that kick as if I were completely ignorant." After a few questions for clarification of what I wanted him to do, he began to in detail tell me about when and how he stepped his front foot, when and how he rotated his waist, when and how he counterbalanced his rotational force, etc.

When done, I said to him.. "Dude, that's form." You object to what you call form as long organized patterns of movement. But all movement, to be performed properly, has a "form". You're just used to doing small mini forms revolving around one or two movements only.

Form in traditional chinese arts is a lviing text book. It is a construct for the development of kinetic potential, a source of theory and tactical overlay perspective and a means of cultivating fitness/endurance in the body. It is also a means of evaluation of performance and skill capabilities. I.E.. if your balance falls apart at high speed on this or that movement, you either have work left to do or you have a mistaken perspective of that particular mechanic and it needs to be corrected.

To me, form is of essential value. If I were to try and percentage it out for you, I'd say my fighters had about a 50% focus on form. And the rest of what I named above (drills to develop certain essential skill sets, resistance training, percussion training, strength training and endurance trainiing) rotated in terms of percentage allotted depending on deficiency seen within form or performanc of form."


Right at the end it says his fighters had 50% forms focus which leaves 50% time for everything else. I am not badmouthing. Just stating a fact.

Ah dude, but you said:

Originally Posted by RWilson View Post
Mike Patterson said that 50% of what he teaches is forms...

That is NOT the same as stating that 50% of the focus is on forms, especially since before that he states this:

When done, I said to him.. "Dude, that's form." You object to what you call form as long organized patterns of movement. But all movement, to be performed properly, has a "form". You're just used to doing small mini forms revolving around one or two movements only.

Context is, as the saying goes, everything.

[RWilson]

Ah dude, but you said:


That is NOT the same as stating that 50% of the focus is on forms, especially since before that he states this:


Context is, as the saying goes, everything.

I think you are looking into his posts for stuff that is not there. He states what I said at the end.

[TenTigers]

Thanks,

Right Hung-Ga I heard he did was under Yee Chi. Yes haters I can understand and I guess the money thing has to due with location, I will check the schools out first to see what I think but is he a patient guy or does he like to rush you out of class fast to be on his way? There was a Kung Fu guy in Plainview who didn't seem as interested in teaching, as much as he was for money. Think it was also associated with a Kempo school.
Sifu Mike is extremely patient, and works hands on with you. He likes to hang out at his school,(A Mo-Kwoon is sometimes our own personal sanctuary!) and seniors usually hang out there after classes and work on other things. No one is going to rush you out the door.

[Ray Pina]

If you're willing to take a train into Queens I recommend David Bond Chan... the best Kung Fu man I ever trained with or seen.

Other than that, I'd recommend Matt Serra. He's the first US black belt under Renzo Gracie. He's on Long Island

http://www.serrajitsu.com/

"Sparring" is very relative. I know a few TCMA schools have adopted to boxing gloves and actually producing competitors now... that wasn't always the case. If you're curious about that, look into which schools have sanctioned fighters.

New York has so much MA to offer if you're willing to take trains or deal with the traffic. If I could do it over again I'd train internal with master Chan in Queens 3 nights a week and take the train to Renzo's 3 nights a week. They would complement each other very well and you'd probably be very good in 2 years. With measurable results.

[maxattck]

Tentigers is right situ mike never rushed you out the door, I used to stay sometimes an hour or so after class, and there would still be a few left training with sifu when I left. If you are interested in BJJ also check out socabjj in bellmore.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you are looking into his posts for stuff that is not there. He states what I said at the end.

Funny, I was gonna say the samething to you, LOL !

[Lucas]

okay look the real point here is that if you dont at the very least go see tentigers, the kungfuforum spirits will haunt you in your dreams. :D

[SifuYui]

Mark13,

I know Rik of Ten Tigers; he's a good guy, down to earth and he's trained multiple disciplines, so you'll get kung fu training from someone who's tested himself in many different disciplines. He's also at a great location. You asked and many people here have given you their suggestions. Now it's up to you to go and find your own path.

Yui

[RWilson]

I think you are looking into his posts for stuff that is not there. He states what I said at the end.

Dude,
Mike Patterson said that 50% of what his guys do is form. This means that they do the hsing I forms, bagua circle forms, etc for half the time. The other half of the time they are sparring, push hands, Fu hu gonging, extra conditioning, etc.

Just because a roundhouse kick in te air is a mini-form that does not mean it is forms work. Everything is "forms". You typing is technically a form. By your definition everything he teaches is a form since it's movement. Or you are saying that since everything is a form his "50% forms work" really means he is doing other stuff but just calling it forms work. That makes little sense.

[Mark13]

Mark13,

I know Rik of Ten Tigers; he's a good guy, down to earth and he's trained multiple disciplines, so you'll get kung fu training from someone who's tested himself in many different disciplines. He's also at a great location. You asked and many people here have given you their suggestions. Now it's up to you to go and find your own path.

Yui

Thank you, you have all been a great help, I will decide from here which to choose. All the schools, Sifu's and other kinds of ma schools mentioned sound great, thanks to all for your help and thanks to TenTigers. If anyone has anything else they want to mention to me or pm me feel free.

[Ray Pina]

I would ask: is your focus strictly on Kung Fu or martial arts in general? Why Kung Fu?

I love Kung Fu, but if your final destination is a place of total confidence backed up by real skill.... it could take some time in a Kung Fu environment. It's not impossible, but the people you see standing as boxing champions, UFC champions, Vale Tudo champions.... they don't have red sashes around their waste.

Many times people drawn to Kung Fu base their decision on movies. And as long as they keep moving in a "Kung FU" manner week after week, they on some level are fulfilling their desire. However, in my experience, the more Jet Li or Jackie Chan like someone is in their form (Wushu) the less likely they are to strap on boxing gloves and go a few practice rounds just because that's what fighters do.

Either way, you're gonna have to put in 5 to 7 years to really accomplish yourself, whether it's BJJ, MMA, Hung Gar, etc..... and each could be a lifetime pursuit.

So just be honest with yourself what it is you wish to be accomplished at. And all the best in your endeavors.

[Mark13]

I would ask: is your focus strictly on Kung Fu or martial arts in general? Why Kung Fu?

I love Kung Fu, but if your final destination is a place of total confidence backed up by real skill.... it could take some time in a Kung Fu environment. It's not impossible, but the people you see standing as boxing champions, UFC champions, Vale Tudo champions.... they don't have red sashes around their waste.

Many times people drawn to Kung Fu base their decision on movies. And as long as they keep moving in a "Kung FU" manner week after week, they on some level are fulfilling their desire. However, in my experience, the more Jet Li or Jackie Chan like someone is in their form (Wushu) the less likely they are to strap on boxing gloves and go a few practice rounds just because that's what fighters do.

Either way, you're gonna have to put in 5 to 7 years to really accomplish yourself, whether it's BJJ, MMA, Hung Gar, etc..... and each could be a lifetime pursuit.

So just be honest with yourself what it is you wish to be accomplished at. And all the best in your endeavors.

These are very good questions, I would be more than happy to answer them. Well first I will say is I think any style one does can be great for what they want to get out of it. Boxing is good, BJJ is good I have tried them before I enjoyed it and there are many good trainers out there and I would be willing to put the same effort into any of them.

I got some interest in Kung Fu not at all because of movies.

I was first looking into a Shotokan or Kyokushin school which had me interested at first but I have not found a school in my area and the Karate schools I did didn't seem to offer much so figure why not Kung Fu?

[TenTigers]

not fer nuthin', but Jacky Chan isn't wu-shu. He is Peking Opera trained and has trained in Bak Mei as well.
jus sayin'.

[BakShaolinEC]

Mark your best bet is training with ten tigers (don't mean to boost your ego anymore ten ;)) I've met him a couple times and he knows his stuff.

[Ray Pina]

not fer nuthin', but Jacky Chan isn't wu-shu. He is Peking Opera trained and has trained in Bak Mei as well.
jus sayin'.

The difficulty I have with those types is how do you qualify their level?

In the end, this is what this discussion comes down to.... train with so and so because he trained with so and so who trained with so and so who was a made up legend in China? Because they have good lion dance or form?

Or do you train with someone who's a champion? Consistently produces champions?

[TenTigers]

The difficulty I have with those types is how do you qualify their level?

In the end, this is what this discussion comes down to.... train with so and so because he trained with so and so who trained with so and so who was a made up legend in China? Because they have good lion dance or form?

Or do you train with someone who's a champion? Consistently produces champions?
Depends on your reasons for training, and what you want out of it.
Not everybody who boxes wants to be Mike Tyson.
(especially after seeing his attempt at Charlie Sheen's roast)

[Ray Pina]

That's true.

And I know you have skill and power.

I remember a year or so ago you had some guys in the ring... is that program expanding? I keep hearing from people how difficult it is to maintain a gym.

[David Jamieson]

Depends on your reasons for training, and what you want out of it.
Not everybody who boxes wants to be Mike Tyson.
(especially after seeing his attempt at Charlie Sheen's roast)

But, he did break steve-o's nose by just standing there with his arm out, which was brilliant!

[David Jamieson]

not fer nuthin', but Jacky Chan isn't wu-shu. He is Peking Opera trained and has trained in Bak Mei as well.
jus sayin'.

hap gar as well. big time into it i understand. not to mention the wing chun as well.

[TenTigers]

That's true.

And I know you have skill and power.

I remember a year or so ago you had some guys in the ring... is that program expanding? I keep hearing from people how difficult it is to maintain a gym.
oy..don't ask. They dropped out the summer and are just coming back in now:mad:-such is the life of a school owner. (frustrating on many levels. Funny, I always look forward to summer, as I train more then.)
But the good news is that my new location is out of the ghetto, away from the gangs and drive by shootings, etc, and enrollment is picking up, so I'm hopeful.

[Lucas]

oy..don't ask. They dropped out the summer and are just coming back in now:mad:-such is the life of a school owner. (frustrating on many levels. Funny, I always look forward to summer, as I train more then.)
But the good news is that my new location is out of the ghetto, away from the gangs and drive by shootings, etc, and enrollment is picking up, so I'm hopeful.

lol ya moving out of the ghetto might help that a bit. who wants to get beat up on their way to class to learn how to fight?! :eek:

jk of course

[Mike Patterson]

Dude,
Mike Patterson said that 50% of what his guys do is form. This means that they do the hsing I forms, bagua circle forms, etc for half the time. The other half of the time they are sparring, push hands, Fu hu gonging, extra conditioning, etc.

Just because a roundhouse kick in te air is a mini-form that does not mean it is forms work. Everything is "forms". You typing is technically a form. By your definition everything he teaches is a form since it's movement. Or you are saying that since everything is a form his "50% forms work" really means he is doing other stuff but just calling it forms work. That makes little sense.

Actually, Sanjuro Ronin has it right moreso than do you, Wilson. But I think it once again boils down to your definition. And I think I have a broader definition of "form" than many.

I think it fairly useless for an individual to go about running combinations on a heavy bag prior to them understanding the "form" that those same combinations stem from. But once they understand the "form" source of said combination, they tend to be able to learn better how to run the combo with authority.

In example: We also practice classic "Pa Kua Post Training". First with "fixed" application of form for conditioning of arms, legs, shoulder, torso upon impact to the posts and then freestyle on same. To me, this is also "form".

Another example would be doing "T'suan" endlessly while bobbing under a rope from side to side while carrying a medcine ball, or with weights in the hands. Or Dragon Jumps with a barbell or heavy bag on the shoulders for leg strength and endurance. Sacriledge I know!! But we do it and that is the way I was trained.

Again, to us, form is a means to an end. Not the ONLY thing to do, but of essential value. If I teach a new fighter a combination involving Pao, Pi and T'suan, I expect him/her to know what the hell I am talking about. I have no time to school them in the basics of mechanics. Proper training of "form" will do that for me. Then I have only to refine their understanding of those same mechanics and teach them how to perform the correct timing and angle of insertion to make it work in fighting.

And you're a bit short on the conditionin aspects of what we do as well. At the end of preparation for a three round, three minute per round event, my fighters would be doing a 40 minute burn in a non-stop circuit composed of apparatus work (heavy bags, rythm bags, dummies, etc.), pad work (various combos and defensive drills) and two person work (we like to do live refresh drills agains different specialty types of attacks based on what we see in other teams) in the form of continuous contact fighting.

You're kinda way off base with your understanding of Tang Shou Tao methods and perspectives. But, many people are. It's okay. I just stopped by to clarify as that is my nature as a teacher. Cheers.

[RWilson]

Actually, Sanjuro Ronin has it right moreso than do you, Wilson. But I think it once again boils down to your definition. And I think I have a broader definition of "form" than many.

I think it fairly useless for an individual to go about running combinations on a heavy bag prior to them understanding the "form" that those same combinations stem from. But once they understand the "form" source of said combination, they tend to be able to learn better how to run the combo with authority.

In example: We also practice classic "Pa Kua Post Training". First with "fixed" application of form for conditioning of arms, legs, shoulder, torso upon impact to the posts and then freestyle on same. To me, this is also "form".

Another example would be doing "T'suan" endlessly while bobbing under a rope from side to side while carrying a medcine ball, or with weights in the hands. Or Dragon Jumps with a barbell or heavy bag on the shoulders for leg strength and endurance. Sacriledge I know!! But we do it and that is the way I was trained.

Again, to us, form is a means to an end. Not the ONLY thing to do, but of essential value. If I teach a new fighter a combination involving Pao, Pi and T'suan, I expect him/her to know what the hell I am talking about. I have no time to school them in the basics of mechanics. Proper training of "form" will do that for me. Then I have only to refine their understanding of those same mechanics and teach them how to perform the correct timing and angle of insertion to make it work in fighting.

And you're a bit short on the conditionin aspects of what we do as well. At the end of preparation for a three round, three minute per round event, my fighters would be doing a 40 minute burn in a non-stop circuit composed of apparatus work (heavy bags, rythm bags, dummies, etc.), pad work (various combos and defensive drills) and two person work (we like to do live refresh drills agains different specialty types of attacks based on what we see in other teams) in the form of continuous contact fighting.

You're kinda way off base with your understanding of Tang Shou Tao methods and perspectives. But, many people are. It's okay. I just stopped by to clarify as that is my nature as a teacher. Cheers.

I could care less about tang shou tao training methods. I could care less about a guy who beat untrained fighters in Taiwan a million years ago. What I care about is skill development. Do your students do well in bjj competitions? Wrestling competitions? Boxing/kickboxing competitions? They won against guys who walk around in circles and do tai chi forms slow. You are the only one who thinks anything about tang shou tao training methods. The world is bigger than Taiwan and your tiny organization.

Royce Gracie beat a bunch of unskilled nobodies as well. Look what happened to him when he started facing trained educated fighters. I get it. You love your Chinese teacher. But the training method you go on and on about is no different than what is done in mma schools minus the strung together stylized forms in the internal arts.

[Pork Chop]

You are the only one who thinks anything about tang shou tao training methods. The world is bigger than Taiwan and your tiny organization.


Disrespectful much?
What's wrong with his training methods?
How are they the same as the methods used in a mma gym?
His fighters fight nothing like mma guys.
Is it because they're actual fighting methods used by fighters who want to hone individual techniques?

Royce was ancient when he lost to Hughes (almost 40 years old).
To put that into perspective, Hughes is retiring this year (probably), he's 2 years shy of 40, and hasn't been relevant to the welterweight division in 4 or 5 years.
Have you seen old pankrase footage of ken shamrock (the Royce victim)?
Dude smashed Bas Rutten.
Pat Smith had a KO win over Andy Hug.
Severn has a win over Forrest Griffen; back in the day he had wins over Taktarov, Tank Abbot, Shamrock, Paul Buentello,
Even Kimo was dangerous back in the day.
Says a lot that even after his loss to Hughes, Royce was able to avenge his earlier loss against sakuraba.

Regardless, you're hating on the fact that Patterson's fighters smashed kuoshu fighters? He came up in kuoshu, so why wouldn't he train his guys to fight in it? It was an open tournament, not like it was handpicked guys.

[RWilson]

Disrespectful much?
What's wrong with his training methods?
How are they the same as the methods used in a mma gym?
His fighters fight nothing like mma guys.
Is it because they're actual fighting methods used by fighters who want to hone individual techniques?

Royce was ancient when he lost to Hughes (almost 40 years old).
To put that into perspective, Hughes is retiring this year (probably), he's 2 years shy of 40, and hasn't been relevant to the welterweight division in 4 or 5 years.
Have you seen old pankrase footage of ken shamrock (the Royce victim)?
Dude smashed Bas Rutten.
Pat Smith had a KO win over Andy Hug.
Severn has a win over Forrest Griffen; back in the day he had wins over Taktarov, Tank Abbot, Shamrock, Paul Buentello,
Even Kimo was dangerous back in the day.
Says a lot that even after his loss to Hughes, Royce was able to avenge his earlier loss against sakuraba.

Regardless, you're hating on the fact that Patterson's fighters smashed kuoshu fighters? He came up in kuoshu, so why wouldn't he train his guys to fight in it? It was an open tournament, not like it was handpicked guys.

Royce was not a high level fighter. That is my opinion. You are welcome to yours as well.

Maybe I am being a bit disrespectful to Mike Patterson. I just do not believe in kissing his butt like everyone else around here. This forum commends people that teach fighting who may or may not have actually fought. But then a guy like Ray, who has fought, gets made fun of by a guy who lost his only san da match embarrassingly in the first minute. Then you all gang up on Ray for fighting back with facts and smart words.

Fine. Let us commend the fatties who teach and let them denigrate the ones walking the walk. That is like going to the brand new fresh out of school surgeon instead of the person with years of practice.

[Frost]

Royce was not a high level fighter. That is my opinion. You are welcome to yours as well.

Maybe I am being a bit disrespectful to Mike Patterson. I just do not believe in kissing his butt like everyone else around here. This forum commends people that teach fighting who may or may not have actually fought. But then a guy like Ray, who has fought, gets made fun of by a guy who lost his only san da match embarrassingly in the first minute. Then you all gang up on Ray for fighting back with facts and smart words.

Fine. Let us commend the fatties who teach and let them denigrate the ones walking the walk. That is like going to the brand new fresh out of school surgeon instead of the person with years of practice.

SO where are your clips of you, or your students fighting, doing grappling or anything?

Lol at royce not being a high level fighter, in his day he was one of the best around, sports move on and evolve and fighters grow old, doesnt mean he wasnt world class back then....once again where did you fight can we see the clips please?

Ray gets grief because he comes on a kung fu forum and says kung fu sucks, yet his record (which he does get credit for) is hardly world class..if it was maybe people would take more note of what he says but i doubt it if people didnt listen to an original dog brother and BJJ blackbelt who fought MMA and thai in japan....

Ross trains students who fight at all levels including for title matches, he gets respect for that, and has been doing so for decades...for longer than Ray has been competing, and his guys win loss record is better than Rays, no one is not giving Ray respect for competing ......what people are saying is that others here have competed more (a lot of the mantis guys have long full contact records) or been in the fight business longer (like Ross and Patterson) so he should show them the same respect you seem to feel he deserves and stop trying to sound like the saviour of TCMA

[David Jamieson]

Holy sweet loving pile of honey oats.

what exactly is not being understood?

Keep your underhanded remarks and insults out of it.

If you cannot have a decent discussion without falling into disrespectful taunts etc, YOU WILL BE HOISTED BY YOUR OWN PETARD.

(look it up)

seriously, had enough of this.