Iron palm

[iwingchun]

Hello everyone,

I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand.....

my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?

I want to do the iron palm technique.......:)

[trubblman]

Hello everyone,

I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand.....

my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?

I want to do the iron palm technique.......:)

Iron palm. Mysticism and fakery hiding a scientific truth. It is called Wolff's law. From Wikipedia: Bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The internal architecture of the trabeculae undergoes adaptive changes, followed by secondary changes to the external cortical portion of the bone. IOW, if you hit something over and over, the bone becomes denser. If you hit a heavy bag or a bag filled with rice or beans, over time the bones subjected to the stress will become more dense. Bones are microscopically like sponges. The more stress you place on them over team, the less spongy the bone becomes.

[Phil Redmond]

Iron palm. Mysticism and fakery hiding a scientific truth. It is called Wolff's law. From Wikipedia: Bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The internal architecture of the trabeculae undergoes adaptive changes, followed by secondary changes to the external cortical portion of the bone. IOW, if you hit something over and over, the bone becomes denser. If you hit a heavy bag or a bag filled with rice or beans, over time the bones subjected to the stress will become more dense. Bones are microscopically like sponges. The more stress you place on them over team, the less spongy the bone becomes.
That's exactly what "Iron Palm" is. The medicine only helps with the contusions so the practitioner can continue training longer. I know for a fact that Iron Palm training works for the scientific reasons above. I have experienced it myself and have seen the progress in others. And I don't believe in anything mystical . Period

[iwingchun]

Thank you all for the advices, explanations and opinions.

I would like to have an iron palm hand :)

[Runlikehell]

While I am not an expert with them, I do believe iron rings exhibit Wolff's law according to the wikipedia definition.

Of course, they're more for use with other Southern styles but some might find it interesting. If they don't already know it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why practice Iron Palm? Is this a technique that the WC is responsible for promoting...

If you practice iron palm why not iron fist (Sun Punch) or iron fingers (Bil Gee)?

[k gledhill]

Why practice Iron Palm? Is this a technique that the WC is responsible for promoting...

If you practice iron palm why not iron fist (Sun Punch) or iron fingers (Bil Gee)?

And dont forget "Iron Ginger Fist" , I think I saw a DVD series somewhere for that.....:D

[Hardwork108]

There is more to Iron Palm than creating hard hands. I believe some you guys need a little bit more research as regards this subject matter.

Hint, hitting the makiwara and hardening the hand is not not necessarily Iron Palm training on its own. Why? A good question whose answer will open "gates" for some people. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Correct Makiwara training should be like iron hand training and, in a certain way makiwara CAN be superiour ( because of the positioning and give, but that is subjective).
To issue is too many practioners view the makiwara as a "punching bag" and not a forging tool.
The makiwara, like the IP bag, is to be hit with moderate force ( something more easily controlled on the IP bag because one is simply dropping the hand and allowing fro gravity to do it job as opposed to the horizontal thrust used on the miakiwara).
As for the internal aspects, makiwara training is supposed to do that to.

Fact is though that the only evidence we have that hand conditioning works is the reliable and non-speculative evidence of the increase in bone density ( the aforementioned Wolffs Law).

Beyond that, well..

[Hardwork108]

Correct Makiwara training should be like iron hand training

That is why I stated that hitting the makiwara and hardening the hand is not necessarily Iron Palm/Fist training.

The key word you used above is: "correct". That word encompasses the types of energy; breathing methodologies; mindset; tension/relaxation, etc. used in the training.


and, in a certain way makiwara CAN be superiour ( because of the positioning and give, but that is subjective).
True, and as you also know, there are more than one kind of makiwara, for different purposes, as there is more to TCMA IP than "dropping" the hand on the sand (bean/iron fillings) bag. For example, there is the sand bowl; use of light weights, and even the use of punch bags (often filled with heavier material), not to mention supplimentary "development forms" training and other Internal body unity exercises.


To issue is too many practioners view the makiwara as a "punching bag" and not a forging tool.

Agreed, and these people think that because their bone density increases by using a makiwara as a punch bag, then they are doing IP.



The makiwara, like the IP bag, is to be hit with moderate force ( something more easily controlled on the IP bag because one is simply dropping the hand and allowing fro gravity to do it job as opposed to the horizontal thrust used on the miakiwara).
As for the internal aspects, makiwara training is supposed to do that to.

Except for the fact that some (not all) karate styles use the type of tension in striking that some TCMA-ists consider at best unproductive and at worse. unhealthy.


Fact is though that the only evidence we have that hand conditioning works is the reliable and non-speculative evidence of the increase in bone density ( the aforementioned Wolffs Law).

The way I have been taught IP, sees the importance of bone density and hardned skin as secondary to the main purpose which is to teach the practitioner to project his striking energy inside of the target - eventually, from the shortest range possible.

That is why I stated that there is more to IP than just hardening the hands.

[k gledhill]

The idea of dropping the hand on a bag simply for bone density alone is ...well... DVD series ! :D

We hit with bare hands in VT , wall bags with varying density as we progress. We hit a bag in front of us to develop striking ideas along with hip / elbow 'pulses' in a line of force we also use in fighting. If your dropping your arm downwards onto a bag for punching or palm striking work your losing the WHOLE purpose of SLT :D Dont forget that while punching a wall bag your also traveling a certain way to the bag to ingrain an intercepting line from wu sao to the apex etc...so its multi-tasking along with learning to deliver strikes. Many simply see a bag and want to hit it hard with no ideas of alignment, wu-shin...

Any toughening and bone density is a by-product of our bare hand striking objects unprotected for years.
My hands and forearms from dummy work arent 'normal' :D but I didnt say to myself one day " I am going to slap my hand down on a bag to make my hand harder " .
I developed open hand strikes that can stop you cold where you stand and drop, but I never once thought to make my bones denser first .
Frankly if you hit a skull with a palm you dont need this 'Iron Palm' you just need good alignment etc..I have hit guys in fights with my plain ol palm and had good results.

I did develop blisters at the base of my palm and then calluses from palm striking work on a wall bag.
Once you get this alignment and line of force you can take it to a heavy bag and start to use turning force/axis, body mass in motion in time with striking entry, etc...

I can also break bricks with my palm. Bricks dont hit back ; )

[TenTigers]

The increase in bone/tissue density is only one aspect of IP training.
The idea is to develop harder and harder strikes, with less effort.
(Of course it is relaxed. All strikes need relaxation-mass x acceleration= force. If you aren't relaxed, you will not accelerate the strike. You are driving with the parking brake on.)
As you develop harder strikes, the hand must be made harder to be able to withstand the power of your own strikes, otherwise you are striking hard with a weak and unstable weapon. It's pure logic. No mystery, no secret.
Projecting force into the opponent is technique. Learning to pulse your strike, and develop shock power-similar to the pulse used in CPR (the dark side of the Force of CPR:-) is part of the method.
Sure you can call it internal..if you want.
But I prefer to call it what it is; physics.

[Hardwork108]

The idea of dropping the hand on a bag simply for bone density alone is ...well... DVD series ! :D

If you read my previous post you will see that IP training encompasses much more than just bone density.


We hit with bare hands in VT , wall bags with varying density as we progress. We hit a bag in front of us to develop striking ideas along with hip / elbow 'pulses' in a line of force we also use in fighting.
In our lineage, the bags are in front, to the sides and on the bottom. There is also the sand bowl, whose purpose is not to teach you how to strike downwards. ;)



If your dropping your arm downwards onto a bag for punching or palm striking work your losing the WHOLE purpose of SLT :D
There are some real sifus who would disagree with you on that point.


Dont forget that while punching a wall bag your also traveling a certain way to the bag to ingrain an intercepting line from wu sao to the apex etc...so its multi-tasking along with learning to deliver strikes. Many simply see a bag and want to hit it hard with no ideas of alignment, wu-shin...
Good point. However, as far as Wing Chun (and other TCMA are concerned) hitting downward exercises such as the bag and the sand bowl, are not practiced in isolation.


Any toughening and bone density is a by-product of our bare hand striking objects unprotected for years.
My hands and forearms from dummy work arent 'normal' :D but I didnt say to myself one day " I am going to slap my hand down on a bag to make my hand harder " .

But many genuine TCMA masters and grandmasters have done so, but of course, the purpose of this methodology was never about solely to make your "hand harder".



I developed open hand strikes that can stop you cold where you stand and drop, but I never once thought to make my bones denser first .
Yes, open hand strikes are effective and their effectiveness is rarely about bone density.



Frankly if you hit a skull with a palm you dont need this 'Iron Palm' you just need good alignment etc..I have hit guys in fights with my plain ol palm and had good results.

That is why the name "Iron Palm", which refers to the methodology we are talking about is some what misleading.;)


I did develop blisters at the base of my palm and then calluses from palm striking work on a wall bag.
Once you get this alignment and line of force you can take it to a heavy bag and start to use turning force/axis, body mass in motion in time with striking entry, etc...
True. That is Wing Chun as practiced generally, but there are TCMA styles that can do great bit of damage with their IRON PALM without using the body mass in motion method.


I can also break bricks with my palm. Bricks dont hit back ; )

Not after you so mercilessly break them, they don't! :D

[k gledhill]

If you read my previous post you will see that IP training encompasses much more than just bone density.


In our lineage, the bags are in front, to the sides and on the bottom. There is also the sand bowl, whose purpose is not to teach you how to strike downwards. ;)



There are some real sifus who would disagree with you on that point.


Good point. However, as far as Wing Chun (and other TCMA are concerned) hitting downward exercises such as the bag and the sand bowl, are not practiced in isolation.



But many genuine TCMA masters and grandmasters have done so, but of course, the purpose of this methodology was never about solely to make your "hand harder".



Yes, open hand strikes are effective and their effectiveness is rarely about bone density.




That is why the name "Iron Palm", which refers to the methodology we are talking about is some what misleading.;)


True. That is Wing Chun as practiced generally, but there are TCMA styles that can do great bit of damage with their IRON PALM without using the body mass in motion method.



Not after you so mercilessly break them, they don't! :D


I wonder which real sifu you mean ?

[Hardwork108]

I wonder which real sifu you mean ?

Any sifu who appreciates the wisdom of "downward" sandbag and sand bowl training, together with straight punching sandbag training. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The increase in bone/tissue density is only one aspect of IP training.
The idea is to develop harder and harder strikes, with less effort.
(Of course it is relaxed. All strikes need relaxation-mass x acceleration= force. If you aren't relaxed, you will not accelerate the strike. You are driving with the parking brake on.)
As you develop harder strikes, the hand must be made harder to be able to withstand the power of your own strikes, otherwise you are striking hard with a weak and unstable weapon. It's pure logic. No mystery, no secret.
Projecting force into the opponent is technique. Learning to pulse your strike, and develop shock power-similar to the pulse used in CPR (the dark side of the Force of CPR:-) is part of the method.
Sure you can call it internal..if you want.
But I prefer to call it what it is; physics.

Rik has *****-slapped the correct and given it the Hung Kuen wedgie of death !

[k gledhill]

Any sifu who appreciates the wisdom of "downward" sandbag and sand bowl training, together with straight punching sandbag training. ;)

Ah, those real sifu.

[Hardwork108]

Ah, those real sifu.

Yep, there are still a few of them left. ;)

[k gledhill]

Yep, there are still a few of them left. ;)

Can you name a few ?

[Hardwork108]

Can you name a few ?

Yes, I can!

[Grumblegeezer]

Yes, I can!

So can I. Joy's si-fu, Augustine Fong, has taught iron palm in his WC. I learned a bit of that under one of his instructors back in '79. Then I spent a dozen years with LT who felt that iron palm was a waste of time in his WT system. Experts will disagree. I can see some logic in both points of view. Most of our hitting is frontal, centerline striking, and the wall bag is good training for that. On the other hand, there is some use of downward dropping energy, as in jut-sau, gum-sau, gaun-sau and so on. Perhaps iron palm training could be used to enhance that? Or maybe you could just spend more time on the dummy.

Personally I'd be more interested in hearing people report on what works for them and why, rather than hearing all the nitpicking and arguing between know-it-alls who are convinced that their si-fu's word is the one and only truth! I prefer to view technique and training from a benefit vs. cost perspective rather than as "right vs. wrong". Just my 2 cents.

[k gledhill]

Yes, I can!

okay, lets hear it :D who are they ?

[Grumblegeezer]

okay, lets hear it :D who are they ?

Kevin, are you really that obtuse, or just one of this forum's resident trolls? I gave you one example, Fong Chi Wing. Presumably, his sifu, Ho Kam Ming agreed as well. Joy could weigh in on this, as I don't really know. My old Sifu, LT did not agree. People differ on this, even within the Yip Man lineage. What makes you think that your opinion is the only correct one?

[k gledhill]

Kevin, are you really that obtuse, or just one of this forum's resident trolls? I gave you one example, Fong Chi Wing. Presumably, his sifu, Ho Kam Ming agreed as well. Joy could weigh in on this, as I don't really know. My old Sifu, LT did not agree. People differ on this, even within the Yip Man lineage. What makes you think that your opinion is the only correct one?

look in the mirror for obtuse, i wasnt asking you ;)

[Vajramusti]

Kevin, are you really that obtuse, or just one of this forum's resident trolls? I gave you one example, Fong Chi Wing. Presumably, his sifu, Ho Kam Ming agreed as well. Joy could weigh in on this, as I don't really know. My old Sifu, LT did not agree. People differ on this, even within the Yip Man lineage. What makes you think that your opinion is the only correct one?
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Who is on first?

Wall bags, iron palm bags are all useful if you use them correctly and well. I have used them both for years and have no arthritis in my hands. But i don't do hung gar iron palm or karate makiwara- don't need to.Iron palm and bag work enables your structure including hand structure to adjust to the impact-- naturally- if done right.
Wing chun has a considerable curriculum- each part plays specific roles in development.

Also you dont have to import hooking or uppercutting from boxing--wing chun body dynamics
provides many tools.... it's a big big tool box.

joy chaudhuri

[Grumblegeezer]

look in the mirror for obtuse, i wasnt asking you ;)

Sorry Kev, my mistake. I thought you really wanted to know if anyone could "name a few" high level sifus who integrated iron palm training into their WC programs. I should have realized that you have no interest in other opinions on the topic and were just jerking people around.

Oh, and to Joy, thanks for the input on the subject. It's nice that some folks actually use this forum to exchange information.

[k gledhill]

Sorry Kev, my mistake. I thought you really wanted to know if anyone could "name a few" high level sifus who integrated iron palm training into their WC programs. I should have realized that you have no interest in other opinions on the topic and were just jerking people around.

Oh, and to Joy, thanks for the input on the subject. It's nice that some folks actually use this forum to exchange information.

I was and had been quoting and asking hardwork....not you, thanks ;)

I treat IP with obvious contempt :D

well aware of AF 'plinth' striking ideas....

[Ozzy Dave]

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Who is on first?

Wall bags, iron palm bags are all useful if you use them correctly and well. I have used them both for years and have no arthritis in my hands. But i don't do hung gar iron palm or karate makiwara- don't need to.Iron palm and bag work enables your structure including hand structure to adjust to the impact-- naturally- if done right.Wing chun has a considerable curriculum- each part plays specific roles in development.

Also you dont have to import hooking or uppercutting from boxing--wing chun body dynamics
provides many tools.... it's a big big tool box.

joy chaudhuri

This is a really good and defining point on the way WC approaches IP.

This is one of the things you have to develop to strike correctly in WC otherwise you can't use the wrist correctly to accelerate into the target. It's also one of the reasons that training with 16oz gloves takes the sting out.

I'd hazard a guess that it's the same with other southern short striking methods, such as with those that use the fung yao as a primary strike.

Dave

[k gledhill]

This is a really good and defining point on the way WC approaches IP.

This is one of the things you have to develop to strike correctly in WC otherwise you can't use the wrist correctly to accelerate into the target. It's also one of the reasons that training with 16oz gloves takes the sting out.

I'd hazard a guess that it's the same with other southern short striking methods, such as with those that use the fung yao as a primary strike.

Dave

So your saying I need Iron Palm to strike correctly for the wrist to accelerate ...? :confused:

[Hardwork108]

look in the mirror for obtuse, i wasnt asking you ;)

Yes, but he answered the question you were asking! The world is full of stuff that you don't know about authentic TCMA practice. So, the best advice for you is to do what I do, and that is keep an open and inquisitive mind and learn from those who have access to knowledge and practices that you don't. :)

[TenTigers]

Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm. It's not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
2- Duncan Leung, Alan Lee are two more highly respected Situation, who include ip in their training.

[Vajramusti]

well aware of AF 'plinth' striking ideas....
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You don't IMO.
It's ok to have your own views on the subject.

[Hardwork108]

So can I. Joy's si-fu, Augustine Fong, has taught iron palm in his WC. I learned a bit of that under one of his instructors back in '79. Then I spent a dozen years with LT who felt that iron palm was a waste of time in his WT system. Experts will disagree.

Yes, experts can disagree and do. That is because they have other valid methodologies that give them the necessary impact and penetrative power, such as some Internal styles that can deliver huge damage with almost baby soft hands.

The problem is that many other "experts" will just badmouth and demean a methodology because they do not know ziltch about it, and I am afraid that this is the case on many MA internet forums.


I can see some logic in both points of view. Most of our hitting is frontal, centerline striking, and the wall bag is good training for that. On the other hand, there is some use of downward dropping energy, as in jut-sau, gum-sau, gaun-sau and so on. Perhaps iron palm training could be used to enhance that? Or maybe you could just spend more time on the dummy.

The downward IP training helps to, among other things, develop the "heavy hand", which then becomes useful in whichever direction one strikes. ;)


Personally I'd be more interested in hearing people report on what works for them and why, rather than hearing all the nitpicking and arguing between know-it-alls who are convinced that their si-fu's word is the one and only truth! I prefer to view technique and training from a benefit vs. cost perspective rather than as "right vs. wrong". Just my 2 cents.

Personally speaking both methodologies work for me, so I am not discounting,nor demeaning any of them. :)

[YouKnowWho]

The downward IP training helps to,
We don't see much downward palm strike in UFC ground game may be because the MMA gloves. Without the gloves, I believe IP will be a very powerful tool in the ground game. It's not that hard to break someone's nose when he is on the ground and you are on top of him.

[Yoshiyahu]

And dont forget "Iron Ginger Fist" , I think I saw a DVD series somewhere for that.....:D

Would you like to taste my iron ginger fist?

[k gledhill]

Would you like to taste my iron ginger fist?

I counter with lemon chicken finger strike :D

[Hardwork108]

We don't see much downward palm strike in UFC ground game may be because the MMA gloves. Without the gloves, I believe IP will be a very powerful tool in the ground game. It's not that hard to break someone's nose when he is on the ground and you are on top of him.

Actually, I should have been more clear. Sometimes I use the Iron Palm description to mean any "iron" training involving the hand. I believe that a penetrative fist strike from the top, to an opponent lying on the bottom will make difference, much more than a Iron Palm strike, even when one is wearing gloves. Palm strikes will probably be more effected by the use gloves.:)

[TenTigers]

Actually, I should have been more clear. Sometimes I use the Iron Palm descrition to mean any "iron" training involving the hand. I believe that a penetrative fist strike from the top, to an opponent lying on the bottom will make difference, much more than a Iron Palm strike, even when one is wearing gloves. Palm strikes will probably be more effected by the use gloves.:)

"Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm. It's not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
2- Duncan Leung, Alan Lee are two more highly respected Situation, who include ip in their training."

I talk..nobody listens....you're like my kids...

[Vajramusti]

"Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm. It's not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
2- Duncan Leung, Alan Lee are two more highly respected Situation, who include ip in their training."

I talk..nobody listens....you're like my kids...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much truth to that - but wall and stand training complement each other.And you can also combine both.

[Fa Xing]

"Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm. It's not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
2- Duncan Leung, Alan Lee are two more highly respected Situation, who include ip in their training."

I talk..nobody listens....you're like my kids...

LOL. I was listening, and nothing has hardened my hands more than hitting focus mitts, heavy bags, etc without gloves on.

[k gledhill]

LOL. I was listening, and nothing has hardened my hands more than hitting focus mitts, heavy bags, etc without gloves on.

now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence... with bare knuckles :D
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.

[Fa Xing]

now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence... with bare knuckles :D
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.

I've never injured mine either, and have always just rapped my knuckles on hard surfaces when I'm doing other things.

It bugs my wife though. :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

"Two things:
Wall bag training can be used for iron palm.
It probably can, but IMHO you will do well to use a downward strike methodology to supplement it. As I mentioned before, in my Mainland Chinese lineage of WC we hit the bag straight, to the sides and down.. We also hit the sand bowl in a wide horse stance, which is not associated with Wing Chun. We use punches, claws, finger strikes and palms.


It's not the dropping method, or even the palm that makes it iron palm, but the concept. Iron palm is just the term.
The dropping of the palm is a concept onto itself.....;)



I talk..nobody listens....you're like my kids...
I could say the same things. ;)

[Hardwork108]

now Im listening too, wall bags , heavy bags , pads, things guys do to train impact, distance, timing, cadence... with bare knuckles :D
BTW I have never injured my hands in fights, go figure.

AGAIN....Iron Palm/Fist etc, is not just about hardening your hands. A little bit of genuine research will go a long way, as regards this fascinating subject matter...;)

[Yoshiyahu]

I counter with lemon chicken finger strike :D


Awww But too late the chicken has ate the lemon an your finger...so you have nothing to defend yourself with...Not prepare for the blast of my Ginger Snaps!

[Fa Xing]

It probably can, but IMHO you will do well to use a downward strike methodology to supplement it. As I mentioned before, in my Mainland Chinese lineage of WC we hit the bag straight, to the sides and down.. We also hit the sand bowl in a wide horse stance, which is not associated with Wing Chun. We use punches, claws, finger strikes and palms.


The dropping of the palm is a concept onto itself.....;)



I could say the same things. ;)

I think that's rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.

The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think that's rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.

The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.



How much damage can that strike do a foes chest cavity when you render him unconscious during the fight and want to utilized brick breaking force on his chest while he lays still unconscious?

[Hardwork108]

I think that's rediculous, when will you find yourself standing in a position above your opponent and trying to hit him downwards.

The only way I can see that downward strike is applicable is when you are on the ground with your opponent, with yourself in well postured position.

The downward striking Iron Palm/Fist training methodology is not only used in Wing Chun, but also numereous other kung fu styles, and I would "suggest" that the reason for this is not for "ground and pound".

The down ward striking (with relaxation, breathing,etc. included) creates faculties for use in hitting straight, as well. Creating the "heavy hand" is one of the faculties in question.

[TenTigers]

actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is...a downward strike.;)
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent's structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding....or is it the other way around...?

[Fa Xing]

actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is...a downward strike.;)
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent's structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding....or is it the other way around...?

I have more or less simplified my methods...I see no point in hitting a bag on table when I could just as easily hit something else that will toughen my hands as well train other attributes more necessary to fighting.

But that's just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.

[Hardwork108]

But that's just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.
I hope that includes the Grandmasters who have developed the styles and the methodologies that some guys here criticize. ;)

[Hardwork108]

actually, hdwk108 is correct..
you guys are getting hung up on thinking that the downward strike is...a downward strike.;)
When doing the downward strike, You are developing downward energy.
This can be applied in a myriad of methods.
One example is a downward jut-sao, which with proper energy, can break the opponent's structure, or at least the trajectory of their arm-depending on their bridge sensitivity.
You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method. If you limit your thinking, you limit your possibilities, and your understanding....or is it the other way around...?

Thank you!

I thought what we said here was common knowledge in TCMA circles, but it just proves that I can be wrong too. :D

[Fa Xing]

I hope that includes the Grandmasters who have developed the styles and the methodologies that some guys here criticize. ;)

“When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.” ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have more or less simplified my methods...I see no point in hitting a bag on table when I could just as easily hit something else that will toughen my hands as well train other attributes more necessary to fighting.

But that's just what I think, everyone is entitled to their or their beliefs whichever comes first.

It's not a case of either/or, as much as far too many people try to make it that.
They compliment each other.

[LoneTiger108]

... You need to stop looking at movement being simple technique, or rather, limited to simple technique.
Gung-Fu is a rich, vast method.

Wise words but unfortunately if all that is present in traditional chinese martial arts are the names of techniques rather than the ideologies or training methods what can we expect??

I used to consider certain Chinese systems to be richer than Wing Chun because they have the poetic lines, the terms and the methods laid out in their curriculums and Wing Chun didn't. Then I met my Sifu of Wing Chun and there it was on the wall!! :D ;)

Iron Palm is a 'recipe' of sorts and is only achievable through strict, disciplined training regimes imho and we start that with sand bag training fme.

[Hardwork108]

There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of the Classical Chinese Martial Arts.


“When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity.
You can never have freedom from "mechanical conditioning", until you have mastered and understood it and the wisdom behind its methodology. Then and only then can you make yours, as it becomes you and you become it, in a free and flowing manner.



The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition.

Methodologies that become tradition, often do so because they survive the test of time. The modern man, instead of becoming a rebel without a cause, should study and investigate, WHY, this is so!


If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.” ;)

Following the classical pattern you will understand the routine and MAKE IT YOURS, by personalizing and expanding it to your requirements, hence become yourself.

By the way, most things Bruce Lee said, has been said in Classicial TCMA concepts, principles and philosophy. ;)

[TenTigers]

Wise words but unfortunately if all that is present in traditional chinese martial arts are the names of techniques rather than the ideologies or training methods what can we expect??

that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don't have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn't teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate...
so many "Masters," and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.

[k gledhill]

that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don't have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn't teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate...
so many "Masters," and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.

amen to that...guys have half an idea about VT , then fill the other half with their own guesswork. When they teach you you don't know any better...you learn most of your life, then find out he photo-shopped his head onto another person in a picture so he could say he was a student of_________.

[trubblman]

amen to that...guys have half an idea about VT , then fill the other half with their own guesswork.

I don't think martial arts "progressed" except by the way you described, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. If it didnt it would never have changed. Today, we would all be doing some ancient martial art that originated in the 1500's, like Tai Tzu or something.

[Grumblegeezer]

amen to that...guys have half an idea about VT , then fill the other half with their own guesswork. When they teach you you don't know any better...you learn most of your life, then find out he photo-shopped his head onto another person in a picture so he could say he was a student of_________.

Now, now Kevin, it wasn't photoshopped. There wasn't any photoshop program available back when that picture was made. Rather it was painstakingly faked by hand. I know, many years ago I was a "disciple" of that guy and he told me about it!

BTW in spite of all that sifu's personal shortcomings, he had a very sophisticated understanding of WC (by whatever spelling you choose). That's something I don't expect you to believe, but it's true.

[k gledhill]

Now, now Kevin, it wasn't photoshopped. There wasn't any photoshop program available back when that picture was made. Rather it was painstakingly faked by hand. I know, many years ago I was a "disciple" of that guy and he told me about it!

BTW in spite of all that sifu's personal shortcomings, he had a very sophisticated understanding of WC (by whatever spelling you choose). That's something I don't expect you to believe, but it's true.

okay so they used scissors and elmers glue...:D

[Graham H]

BTW in spite of all that sifu's personal shortcomings, he had a very sophisticated understanding of WC (by whatever spelling you choose). That's something I don't expect you to believe, but it's true.

I don't believe it either!! ;)

G

[WhiteTiger666]

There are many different types of Iron Palm both internal and external.
If you practice tai chi you can develop internal iron palm as well.

As for 100 lessons that is probably very expensi.

like all things opinions vary
the main thing should be to practice and not hurt yourself to build up the energy overtime so you can focus it.

[LoneTiger108]

that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don't have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn't teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate...
so many "Masters," and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.

Exactly my point! Good post :)

[Graham H]

that is why having a good Sifu makes all the difference in the world. The forms don't have everything. Knowing the kuen-kuit doesn't teach you. Many things are passed down through the individual teachings of the Sifu.
And that depends on his own level of understanding.
This is why we see so many bad WCK people, bad Hung-Gar people, bad SPM people, bad Kenpo..bad karate...
so many "Masters," and so few real gems.
This is also why TCMA gets a bad rap.

It's not only a good Teacher that is necessary, it is a good student!!!

The Kuen Kuit is nonsense and is worshipped by stupids!

Bad people survive in all walks of life not just TCMA. It's normal.

GH

[Hardwork108]

.......The Kuen Kuit is nonsense and is worshipped by stupids!......
GH

Oh boy, when you think that this forum holds no more surprises....:rolleyes:

[EternalSpring]

It's not only a good Teacher that is necessary, it is a good student!!!

The Kuen Kuit is nonsense and is worshipped by stupids!

Bad people survive in all walks of life not just TCMA. It's normal.

GH

A good student is def important, but at the same time, if the Sifu's teaching or quality is not that good then even the best efforts from the most dedicated student can end up going to waste, imho.

I'm not sure why you'd think the Kuen Kit is nonsense. The majority of it is not even anything abstract or hard to believe (and i say "most" because i know some people dont appreciate anything which talks about internal energy or chi), it's pretty much just good ideas and concepts to remember about Ving Tsun and it's applications (whether in combat or other aspects of life).

But I'd also say that the value of the Kuen Kit is related to and dependent on the understanding and level of the reader. It seems a bit different these days because many of us now find the most common sayings from the Kuen Kit translated online, but as for Sifus who hand write and pass the Kuen Kit (most likely including family specific lines as well that are not in the kuen kit we see online) down to there students, as far as I know, this is only done once the student has reached a pretty high level, usually after completing the system.

just my 2c

[Fa Xing]

There seems to be a huge misunderstanding of the Classical Chinese Martial Arts.


You can never have freedom from "mechanical conditioning", until you have mastered and understood it and the wisdom behind its methodology. Then and only then can you make yours, as it becomes you and you become it, in a free and flowing manner.




Methodologies that become tradition, often do so because they survive the test of time. The modern man, instead of becoming a rebel without a cause, should study and investigate, WHY, this is so!



Following the classical pattern you will understand the routine and MAKE IT YOURS, by personalizing and expanding it to your requirements, hence become yourself.

By the way, most things Bruce Lee said, has been said in Classicial TCMA concepts, principles and philosophy. ;)

Oh, yeah, I know.

TCMA=been there, done that; and now I have moved onto to my own freedom of movement.

[Hardwork108]

Oh, yeah, I know.

TCMA=been there, done that; and now I have moved onto to my own freedom of movement.

There are a lot of ballet dancers out there who have freedom of movement, as well. :D

[Fa Xing]

There are a lot of ballet dancers out there who have freedom of movement, as well. :D

Yeah, but you are more than welcome to come Los Angeles and test my freedom of movement. :cool:

[Hardwork108]

Yeah, but you are more than welcome to come Los Angeles and test my freedom of movement. :cool:

Will there be any classical music playing on the background? :p

[Grumblegeezer]

The Kuen Kuit is nonsense and is worshipped by stupids!

GH

Can you post a videoclip or at least a picture to prove this?
...I want to see stupids worshipping the nonsensical Kuen Kuit! :D

[Vajramusti]

Can you post a videoclip or at least a picture to prove this?
...I want to see stupids worshipping the nonsensical Kuen Kuit! :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To trivialize the wing chun kuen kuit as Graham does is tunnel vision. The kuit do not teach you directly if you are not well grounded in wing chun. But they help sharpen the understanding
after sufficient learning, practicing and understanding, I am not going to waste time and debate the obvious...
with the previous poster.

[Hardwork108]

It's not only a good Teacher that is necessary, it is a good student!!!

The Kuen Kuit is nonsense and is worshipped by stupids!

Bad people survive in all walks of life not just TCMA. It's normal.

GH

Graham, does your sifu have the same opinion as you when it comes to the Kuen Kuit? If so, when are you going to ask for your money back and move on?

[Graham H]

Oh boy, when you think that this forum holds no more surprises....:rolleyes:

What surprises me my friend is your ideas on Ving Tsun. It's good to be different and I don't want the same ideas as you!

GH

[Graham H]

Graham, does your sifu have the same opinion as you when it comes to the Kuen Kuit? If so, when are you going to ask for your money back and move on?

Yes he does! Previously on my VT journey my money was wasted on people that share the same views on Ving Tsun as you.........hardwork! :)

GH

[Graham H]

...I want to see stupids worshipping the nonsensical Kuen Kuit! :D

..............which proves my point!

GH

[Graham H]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To trivialize the wing chun kuen kuit as Graham does is tunnel vision. The kuit do not teach you directly if you are not well grounded in wing chun. But they help sharpen the understanding
after sufficient learning, practicing and understanding, I am not going to waste time and debate the obvious...
with the previous poster.

....as long as I am firing from a different side than you Joy all is well in my world. Your arrogance is no different to mine in a lot of respects.

Between HKM - Fong - to you something must have gone wrong or maybe they are just as bad. Who knows.

Shoot Professor I need cheering up.

GH

[Hardwork108]

....as long as I am firing from a different side than you Joy all is well in my world. Your arrogance is no different to mine in a lot of respects.

GH

I don't see arrogance in Joy's posts, but even he were, his arrogance would have been based on actual TCMA knowledge, rather than "shooting blanks" like you do. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Yes he does! Previously on my VT journey my money was wasted on people that share the same views on Ving Tsun as you.........hardwork! :)

GH

You never learn do you. Now it is twice that you have been ripped off. Let me give you some advice. Find a REAL sifu who can enlighten you as regards the Kuen Kuit, and your money will never be wasted again. :)

[Hardwork108]

What surprises me my friend is your ideas on Ving Tsun. It's good to be different and I don't want the same ideas as you!

GH
My ideas on Wing Chun would not surprise you if you actually practiced the d@mn thing! :mad:

[Graham H]

My ideas on Wing Chun would not surprise you if you actually practiced the d@mn thing! :mad:

It will actually be the 8th time I've been ripped off. :rolleyes:

If what you practice is Wing Chun then I don't? That's fair. I agree with you.

No more bickering eh?

Get back on with your hardwork 108 times or something.:p

GH

[Graham H]

..........in fact FYI I used to have a Sifu that was pro "Kuen Kuit". I knew it all from memory and recited it constantly during my lessons and conversations. It was a code that I used to live by.......Yes thats how sad I was. Nowadays I have other more important things to occupy my mind like the price of fish and the weather.

G

[Fa Xing]

Will there be any classical music playing on the background? :p

There could be, classical music is quite nice. Especially the Yo-Yo Ma, and Ennio Morricone of the world. Fantastically beautiful! :cool:

[Hardwork108]

There could be, classical music is quite nice. Especially the Yo-Yo Ma, and Ennio Morricone of the world. Fantastically beautiful! :cool:

Wow, some smoothing and relaxing classical music, while you kill me with your Bruce Lee style freedom of movement. :p

[Fa Xing]

Wow, some smoothing and relaxing classical music, while you kill me with your Bruce Lee style freedom of movement. :p

I wouldn't kill you, I'm too nice :D. But afterwards I will finally be worthy of wearing this:

http://rlv.zcache.com/troll_slayer_t_shirt-p235506224070503689qizb_152.jpg

LMAO :cool:

[Hardwork108]

But afterwards I will finally be worthy of wearing this:

http://rlv.zcache.com/troll_slayer_t_shirt-p235506224070503689qizb_152.jpg

LMAO :cool:

I want one of those! :D

[Fa Xing]

I want one of those! :D

That would be ironic!
I did a lot of it in the old days (referring to Iron Palm training). I have some of the training in my old "Hsing-i" books. It is good to understand heavy palm hits, but you can also get the same thing from focus glove training.

Tim Tackett, for those of you who don't know, did a lot of training in TCMA's back in the 1960's in Taiwan when he was in the Army. In 1971, he started training JKD in Dan Inosanto's backyard before Bruce Lee passed away.

[Hardwork108]

That would be ironic!
Hey, if you can commit suicide, then so can I. :cool:


Tim Tackett, for those of you who don't know, did a lot of training in TCMA's back in the 1960's in Taiwan when he was in the Army. In 1971, he started training JKD in Dan Inosanto's backyard before Bruce Lee passed away.
Each to his own. There are many who would agree with Tim Tackett and there are many, including TCMA masters and grandmasters, who wouldn't.

I guess it is a case of different strokes for different folks, based on their individual experience and understanding.......

[Yoshiyahu]

The 100 lessons of iron palm is a do it your self video and book...

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Palm-100-Days-Ying-Arng/dp/0685637581

http://www.clearstaichi.com/tai-chi-dvd/internal-iron-palm-dvd-1715.html

these are some sites that speak on it...

But google 100 days iron palm...

As for the validity of these videos I can not attest to them!

My Sifu and Sihing have shared info on how to develop iron hand techniques. But as for you having some new skill to kill someone with a touch or break bones with one hit thats not ever taught...

Personally i think the ideaology of iron palm is overrated and exaggerated. I do believe in iron palm conditioning...but not as it is depicted in fantasy or kung fu movies...

At best having an iron palm will be like anything just conditioning your hands to take more pressure as you would your shins or fist by kicking and punching a heavy bag!




Hello everyone,

I am glad because I started wing chun again after many months. The practitioner that I do the practice and techniques does iron palm technique and when he defenses with pak sao, my hand.....

my practitioner says that iron palm has 100 lessons. Is anybody here who has already done 100 lessons, and if someone do, can he see difference in his power?

I want to do the iron palm technique.......:)

[T.D.O]

don't know why you would have to hit a sand bag to train heavy hand...? you could just train the drop

anyway, reading through old posts still, and since it came up on the other post...