Mitt Work with TCMA techniques

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This discussion involves doing more obscure, non-boxing hand strikes on the mitts. As Kung Fu practioners, do you do them? For example, open hand strikes such as ridgehand, knifehand, spearhand, or fists not fully closed such as Dragon's Head, Leopard Paw, Phoneix Eye, and even Mantis wrist strikes.

The point of this topic is do you train these techniques with a mitt holder as boxers do with jab, cross, hook, uppercut and if so, do you wrap hands, use some type of glove?? I am curious as to how people train these TCMA strikes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This discussion involves doing more obscure, non-boxing hand strikes on the mitts. As Kung Fu practioners, do you do them? For example, open hand strikes such as ridgehand, knifehand, spearhand, or fists not fully closed such as Dragon's Head, Leopard Paw, Phoneix Eye, and even Mantis wrist strikes.

The point of this topic is do you train these techniques with a mitt holder as boxers do with jab, cross, hook, uppercut and if so, do you wrap hands, use some type of glove?? I am curious as to how people train these TCMA strikes.

Always, I even had a couple of rounds on the mitt and bag devoted to them.

[hskwarrior]

I have a wooden dummy where the striking pads are as hard as rocks. We condition our hands on the dummy. Then we do alot of pad work using nothing but our Choy Lee Fut strikes. On the mits or thai pads we work all of our closed and open handed strikes. We also use chest protectors while drilling so the student can actually strike the body using some force.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I need to get good striking pads for my WD, any suggestions?

[hskwarrior]

If you know someone who sews alot they can make you some. the pads on mine are 4.5 x 4.5 maybe 5 inches all around and made of heavy canvas. don't know if it was sand inside but whatever it is is STUPID HARD NOW..... other than that, IDK where to get dummy pads.

My sifu takes foam rubber and wraps it around the top middle. he wrapped the foam with a rice sack. works great and you can strike it HARD.

http://www.wle.com/products/TD79.html

http://www.immortalmartialarts.com/paddummybody.aspx

[TenTigers]

we have always used hand pads for our Hung-Ga strikes. Gwa, Cup, Been, So, Sow,
yes, and even the Charp-Choy are drilled on focus pads.
For beginners, I use the oval striking shields, and advanced students, who buy bag gloves can use the larger focus mitts and Thai pads. For the oval shields, there are no gloves or wraps, but for the harder pads, you may need to use them to prevent cuts.

[TenTigers]

I need to get good striking pads for my WD, any suggestions?
http://www.immortalmartialarts.com/woodendummyaccessories.aspx

[hskwarrior]

A sample of my beginners Pad Work training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwarrMmkrNo

[Frost]

i hit with jab crosses, over hands hooks and uppercuts, all found in CLF is the ok :)

My sifu works both long (CLF)and short (lung ying) on the pads, also open and closed fight from both on guard and other defensive postures (anyone else notice how the fence posture looks alot like the hakka arts stances)

[hskwarrior]

My sifu works both long (CLF)and short (lung ying) on the pads, also open and closed fight from both on guard and other defensive postures (anyone else notice how the fence posture looks alot like the hakka arts stances)

Everything done with CLF's long range can be done with short range as well. its just a little tighter, i feel alot more powerful. helps you break and enter alot faster

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any pad work done with a closed fist can be and should be done with a "specialty fist", you just have to forge it that's all,
You will naturaly find how a certain hand formation fits better into your fighting style.
I have noticed that I tend to perfer using the PE fist in hooks and uppercuts, rather than straights.
Same goes for the leopard fist.
I drive my ridgehands like I do my overhand rights and hooks(to the body).
I use the spearhand for "pressing" rather than striking.

[hskwarrior]

Any pad work done with a closed fist can be and should be done with a "specialty fist", you just have to forge it that's all,
You will naturaly find how a certain hand formation fits better into your fighting style.
I have noticed that I tend to perfer using the PE fist in hooks and uppercuts, rather than straights.
Same goes for the leopard fist.
I drive my ridgehands like I do my overhand rights and hooks(to the body).
I use the spearhand for "pressing" rather than striking.

i've realized that all hands are interchangeable a while back. I like the Panther fist and PE. One of our basic forms has an inverted strike to the chin where i use the PE.

I like spear hand or as we call it Snake.....i like to use it on the throat. I once struck a co-worker in the side of his face with the spear hand when he tried to playfully blind side me. i thought i punctured his cheek....but no.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Ridgehand strike or "eagle wing" in our system can be a very powerful strike that comes from a parry, deep lunge stance, and directed toward the body. Spearhand or serpent strikes I find more applicable in pressing like Ronin said. I also find most tiger claws and tearing techniques to be more feasible in the clinch, with a good over hook or plum to control the person.

I would like to bring up a point that many techniques that seem unfeasible from a striking standpoint make much more sense in the clinch or grappling. Yet another reason why Shuai Jiao practice should be a part of all Kung Fu schools. Just my opinion of course.;)

[dirtyrat]

I would like to bring up a point that many techniques that seem unfeasible from a striking standpoint make much more sense in the clinch or grappling. Yet another reason why Shuai Jiao practice should be a part of all Kung Fu schools. Just my opinion of course.;)

one must also take into account that tcma techniques and tactics are different than boxing.

for example, when punching, a lot of times you don't retract that fist back to deliver another strike. you may use it to grab, strike again, intercept a counter or use ripping techniques.

sometimes what looks like a punch, is acutually a forearm striking technique. or it may be a joint locking/wrenching technique.

[Ray Pina]

Good topic. One of my greatest frustrations is being forced to "react" to pad work with ducking, bobbing and weaving, when I just want to jam and hit.... anyone have some TCMA pad routines they can share?

Right now I'm just using boxng gloves vs boxing gloves for drills but will invest in pads for my student. Hanging the heavy bag this weekend for him.

[Pork Chop]

PAD RECOMMENDATIONS

Thai pads
-if you want softer thai pads that protect the holder (good for older instructors):
http://store.titleboxing.com/twin-thai-pads-leather.html
http://www.ringside.com/Windy-Thai-Pads-Pair/productinfo/WPAD+1/
http://www.ringside.com/Fairtex-Extra-Thick-Thai-Pads/productinfo/XTTPAD3/

-same as above, but if you just want the cheap stuff (and don't mind a lack of durability):
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-mma-thai-pad.html

-if you're not so worried about having dainty shins & forearms, these are the best:
http://store.titleboxing.com/boon-sport-leather-thai-pads.html

Focus mitts
-cheap stuff that should last
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-classic-canvas-punch-mitts.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/incrediball-punch-mitts.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/titleboxing-classic-panther-micro-mitts.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/cobmic.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-incrediball-beefy-punch-mitts.html
http://www.ringside.com/2011-Ringside-World-Championship-Punch-Mitts/productinfo/RWCPPM/
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-pro-mex-professional-punch-mitts.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-platinum-contoured-punch-pads.html
http://store.titleboxing.com/platinum-punch-mitts.html


I've seen a lot of youtube vids of kung fu schools working pads and mitts.
While I applaud the attempt, the problem I see with most of the vids is the approach.
Seems a lot of folks do forms where the mitts just happen to be there.
The purpose of the mitts is to be dynamic.
Kinda like sparring, where you don't have to worry about damage but can throw everything you've got at a target. At the same time, it's an opportunity for a coach to offer subtle adjustment to technique and really get hands on.

There's a pretty easy method for putting together a good pad routine...
Step 1 - Pick your techniques
General recommendation would be at least 1 punch each arm, 1 kick each leg, and 3 or 4 combos.
Step 2 - Pick your defense
Probably want to come up with defense and maybe counters for at least hooks & straight punches (right & left), as well as hook/round & straight kicks (right & left). EDIT for Ray: defense does not necessarily require head movement.
Step 3 - Start with the basics
Start with the single techniques first.
If your combos have more than 3 techniques, break them down into 2-technique chunks so you can work on your transitions. (ie jab-cross-hook becomes jab-cross and cross-hook).
Also do simple defenses.
At this point, you're doing each technique for repetitions.
Step 4 - Build up
Now put your combos together fully
Add your counters onto your simple defenses
Still working techniques for repetitions.
Step 5 - Integrate and freestyle
Here you mix in your offense & defense.
Stuff should come out more at sporadically, to the pad holder's discretion.
The person hitting should have no idea what's coming next.
Pad holder needs to call out shots at first.
Eventually, the highest level of this is like a sparring match where the pad holder just catches what the hitter throws, calling out nothing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would suggest eventually getting a good "belly pad" or solid chest guard to eventually add a more "realistic" element to pad work.

[hskwarrior]

I would suggest eventually getting a good "belly pad" or solid chest guard to eventually add a more "realistic" element to pad work.

I got the chest pads, but i want to belly pad too....:D

[Pork Chop]

I would suggest eventually getting a good "belly pad" or solid chest guard to eventually add a more "realistic" element to pad work.

Can't go wrong with:
http://store.titleboxing.com/twins-belly-protector.html

I use this a lot:
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-classic-body-protector.html

This is a freakin work of art:
http://store.titleboxing.com/boon-sport-belly-protector.html

The cheapest:
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-rib-ab-protector.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can't go wrong with:
http://store.titleboxing.com/twins-belly-protector.html

I use this a lot:
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-classic-body-protector.html

This is a freakin work of art:
http://store.titleboxing.com/boon-sport-belly-protector.html

The cheapest:
http://store.titleboxing.com/title-rib-ab-protector.html

Good stuff, it gives a whole new element to pad work.

[Pork Chop]

Good stuff, it gives a whole new element to pad work.

We used to also wear it when doing 2-person defense techniques.
If you're throwing pushkick or roundkick to the body, it lets you throw the kick at real speed so that the defender can get a realistic idea of what the technique will look like coming in.
It's also invaluable in clinch work for letting you throw realistic knees without fear of (too much) injury.

[Mark13]

I think any hand pads, thai pads are good to start out with and try to practice from both sides right?

[hskwarrior]

I think any hand pads, thai pads are good to start out with and try to practice from both sides right?

thats a must in my club. I believe in balancing out both sides.

[Frost]

We used to also wear it when doing 2-person defense techniques.
If you're throwing pushkick or roundkick to the body, it lets you throw the kick at real speed so that the defender can get a realistic idea of what the technique will look like coming in.
It's also invaluable in clinch work for letting you throw realistic knees without fear of (too much) injury.

being rather large, i hate wearing them when clinching, my upper body gets in the way as it is :)

i agrre there are good for allowing real time switching between hands and feet

[Pork Chop]

I think any hand pads, thai pads are good to start out with and try to practice from both sides right?

Not exactly sure what you're asking.
If you're asking if all pads are created equally, I'll disagree and say that some pads are just built better for more realistic striking surfaces.

If you're asking whether or not to train both sides, my beliefs are this:
Defense is going to change whether you are fighting someone same side forward or opposite side forward, at the very least the angles will change.
Since i do muay thai, sanshou, and boxing; most people I work with will train left side forward. If I get someone wants/needs to fight right side forward, I still have them learn left side forward first so they can understand how their techniques exploit the angles. I do; however, believe in spending the majority of your time working a single side forward.

I think being able to operate on both sides is good, but repetition is the key to being good and it's hard to do double the amount of work. Plus, it's a common tactic when facing guys who switch a lot is to attack in the middle of their switch - they tend to be vulnerable.

[Taixuquan99]

This discussion involves doing more obscure, non-boxing hand strikes on the mitts. As Kung Fu practioners, do you do them? For example, open hand strikes such as ridgehand, knifehand, spearhand, or fists not fully closed such as Dragon's Head, Leopard Paw, Phoneix Eye, and even Mantis wrist strikes.

The point of this topic is do you train these techniques with a mitt holder as boxers do with jab, cross, hook, uppercut and if so, do you wrap hands, use some type of glove?? I am curious as to how people train these TCMA strikes.

On pads and on the heavy bag, though not spear hands.

My faith in the forum is reinvigorated.