Thoughts on the Wang Lang story.

[mantis108]

Once again we see the subject of Wang Lang story being brought up in various discussions on KFO. Also the matter of "Luohan Xinggong Duanda" manuscripts has been brought up as well.

Here's my take on these matters:

1) the Wang Lang story or rather myth is borrowed from the allegory of the origin of CMA. It is based on the legendary epic tale between the rivalry of Pang Juan and Sun Bin during the Warring State period of China. The specific segment of the tale which the Wang Lang myth focused on is "Bai Yuan Tou Tao" (white ape steals the peach).

The significant of the tale is that it is meant to be as a mean to counter the claim that "ALL martial arts came from Shaolin Temple"; however, this important idea is lost during the many reciting of the legend and in fact works the opposite to perpetuate the Shaolin supremacy myth in martial arts. In my mind, Tanglangquan has little to no real connection to Shaolin Kung Fu, rather it is more rooted in military tradition or secular origin which is to say it is born and bred in China rather than brought in and adapted from India. BTW, I am not promoting nationalism in martial arts but rather to clarify my position on the origin of Tanglangquan.

IMHO, Wang Lang is no more than a fictional character based on the legendary Daoist/strategist "Guiguzi" (Ghost Valley Sage) whose name is Wang Xu and combined with his supposed student Sun Bin.

Anyway, my point is that while there are lots of great wisdoms in the creation myth of Tanglangquan, please don't get blindsided by fictional tale.

Mantis108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every myth is base don a legend and every legend on some fact.
I think that when it comes to MA, one needs to take the "lesson" of the story as what is important and not the details of the story.

[LaterthanNever]

Well I mean if you wanted to get really, really technical..

The Chen family in Chen Village of Chen Tai Ji..is one of the few actual styles of kung fu which actually DID DOCUMENT(emphasis mine) when "historical figure x" was born, where he lived, who he taught, and then who his sifu level student taught and on and on.

I've heard (a few times actually) that the following historical kung fu figures may have never existed either: Ng Mui(of Wing Chun), Abbot Gee Sin who taught such historical figures as Hung Hei Gung(of Hung Ga), Boddidharma(aka-Ta Mo..who supposedly planted the seed of what later became much of Shaolin kung fu), Bak Mei(of white eyebrow kung fu), and even the supposed "5 families"(Hung, Lau, CHoy, Li and Mok) were mentioned in some ancient Chinese novel(I believe the title was "5,000 years green"), then you've got the folks who say that the "Green Grass Monk" of CLF never existed.

And of course Paulie Zinks teacher :p

[Howard]

Nice post Mantis108.

Actually all MA have fairly traceable lineages but most people even masters tend to stick to the fiction and stories ....often even not aware of the reality. Further the assumption that whatever was started remained as was over hundreds of years is also in part fantasy.....any TCMA has had many phases in it's development .....the only poor piece is likely the last hundred or so years as it continues to deteriorate .....

[bawang]

an obvous clue to the origin of tang lang is the style itself. there is no tang lang boxing. there is only various northern styles combined with tanglang concepts. that means there were probably multiple founders, probably some kind of caravan group.

[LaterthanNever]

"there is no tang lang boxing. there is only various northern styles combined with tanglang concepts. that means there were probably multiple founders, probably some kind of caravan group. "

Please support your statement, sir.

[B.Tunks]

an obvous clue to the origin of tang lang is the style itself. there is no tang lang boxing. there is only various northern styles combined with tanglang concepts. that means there were probably multiple founders, probably some kind of caravan group.

It's a decent theory and some also share this opinion in Shandong. In components of the the oldest documents the style isn't specifically called Tanglang though there are individual techs/combos that are named Tanglang. These documents are shared by all families of Tanglang, including Liuhe and are do not seem to be exclusive property of any one family for as long as they have been around (pre-dating those that are authored by those most consider to be the earliest 'verifiable' TLQ figures such as Liang Xuexiang). By the QX-MH split TLQ is already well developed and also appears to be before LXX. Whether or not it was an extinct style that was revived is another question. It is obviously born from other styles or at least heavily borrowed from them and this could also lend weight to multiple creators collaborating to produce the style.

It's also fairly obvious that the early documentation was appropriated from outside.

There is also a long tradition of collaboration between masters within the Tanglang Men (even more so in Dongbei). These stories of cooperation used to read like folklore but you can find a lot of evidence of this early sharing in the Shandong countryside where the lines between the various pai are very blurry. Not only that, obviously caravan guarding was the primary occupation of most of the early generations.

BT

[B.Tunks]

M108

You are correct about the origin of the Bai Yuan story. The possible link to Wang Lang is a very interesting theory and bears consideration. We have Bai Yuan story in our family literature, which of course mentions Gui Guzi, however there is no link made between the Bai Yuan story and the figure Wang Lang (at least not in our family, Lin Jingshan's or in Wang Chuanyi's quan pu). I was always of the opinion that this story was 'lifted' from Tongbei tradition. It stands alone in our material, connected of course to technique names but apparently to nothing else. There is actually very little mention of Wang Lang at all except in a couple of origin poems, 18 families etc.

BT

[MightyB]

I like the idea that it was a system born out of one man's defeat and his inspiration and ultimately his vindication becoming the original MMA. That at one time it was more popular than Shaolin in the Shaolin temple. That I'm studying a Shaolin style that was perfected and passed on by a daoist. .

Therefore I choose to accept and believe the Wang Lang story.