Mook Yan Jong - is it useless?

[Yoshiyahu]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

[Paul T England]

try not using one for a few years and then go back to it...

it tightens up the moves/angles, gives you something to use a bit energy on that will not complain and also makes you think about application and theory.

Its also great from hanging coats from :)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[wingchunIan]

ditto... but don't leave it years or you'll never find it under the coats:)

[anerlich]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

No.

Are you?

[Yoshiyahu]

Some sifus on here have stated a wooden man is useless?


So what is the purpose of the Mook Yan Jong?

[YouKnowWho]

If you don't have training partner at home, the

- wooden man is good to train your strik, and
- throwing dummy is good to traing your throw.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

The Dummy helps to refine the angles of your technique. IMHO, the way the dummy reacts to the force projected into it can help to determine if the techniq is applied at the proper angle. An example is the Bong Sau; when applied the arm should go up and the opposite corner and the body of the dummy should turn slightly. This will indicate the proper angle and even degree of force.

Also when moving around the dummy applying techniques your stance is worked and you can use the reactive force from the dummy to insure your stance is also correct.

My opinion anyhow.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would have thought that this subject might have been more obvious to a WC practitioner, or is this just to get discussion going?
You can not exert yourself in the same manner on your training partners. And you can't go around doing this on strangers either. The wooden dummy was introduced a very long time ago, and they have been of just about every shape and function. You don't really have to follow set protocal either, and just use your imagination in putting together patterns and forms.
Not only do you get to apply and develop your offensive and defensive techniques, but you also get to apply and develop your footwork. Your footwork technique gets you where you need to be when you need to be there. You can practice entry technique, kicking, defending, and offensive offensive technique. I feel that the mook is a very important part of your WC training. I don't think it would be much good in other systems though. But I don't know that.

[Graham H]

It's easy to say that the dummy is for honing one's actions on but there is more to the muk jong than that. The dummy is very specific to Ving Tsun training and improvement. The height and angle of the upper limbs. The position of the middle limb and the leg are laid out like that for a reason. It's not just a training subsitute and it doesnt represent a human being.

Without the dummy certain attributes required for fighting would not be possible. In fact even asking the question of whether it is useless poses some worrying questions.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Only if it's used as a coat hanger! ;)


Does it actual serve a purpose?

Yes.


Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?

Yes to all of that, and more imho.


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

I was always taught that the Wooden Man represents your Sifu, so yes it's for solo practise but must be appoached with respect.


Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

Of course. Because without it where would we be? ;)

[Sihing73]

:eek: Now I am scared too................I also agree with Graham.......what is next different WC lineages sitting in a circle around a fire making smores (which I do not like) and singing........perhaps there is indeed "Hope for the Future" :D

[LoneTiger108]

........perhaps there is indeed "Hope for the Future" :D

there is always hope Dave :)

[wingchunIan]

Some sifus on here have stated a wooden man is useless?


So what is the purpose of the Mook Yan Jong?

The jong is a piece of equipment in the same way as a wall bag, punch bag, focus mits etc Traditionally it would be used to refine positions, footwork and energy but its uses are only limited by the imagination of the user. It can be used as a kicking post, to train sensitivity, to drill single techniques, drill specific combinations etc Ultimately its a piece of wood or plastic so it is what you make of it

[Graham H]

The jong is a piece of equipment in the same way as a wall bag, punch bag, focus mits etc Traditionally it would be used to refine positions, footwork and energy but its uses are only limited by the imagination of the user. It can be used as a kicking post, to train sensitivity, to drill single techniques, drill specific combinations etc Ultimately its a piece of wood or plastic so it is what you make of it

Ok, so it's a piece of equipment but there is much more substance in dummy training unlike a punch bag or the wall bag. This unique piece of training apparatus has evolved along with Ving Tsun itself. I wouldn't say it is limited by one's imagination either. It serves very specfic purposes. Any fool can make a bit of wood look like a man and hit it but Ving Tsun is a little cleverer than that and it has been adapted by some great fighting minds specifically for VT improvement.

Could you explain how you can train sensitivity on the dummy? :confused:

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Could you explain how you can train sensitivity on the dummy? :confused:

Can you explain it's 'very specific purposes?'

[TenTigers]

Its also great from hanging coats from :)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Dude, that's what treadmills and versa climbers are for.

Mook yan jongs are to lean against when teaching class, and lecturing to students.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The jong is a simple training tool, doesn't actually teach you anything really. It just allows you to exercise what you have been trying to learn. Nothing mysterious about it, nothing specific and pointed about it. Everyone wants to put the cart before the horse.
The jong is built to represent a person. It as the 2 arms to represent a 2 hand stance position, the middle arm represents an uppercut position or low punch, and the leg of course is the one foot forward stance. I find that most white men stand several inches taller than I, and the jong seems to be a man shorter than myself. I suspend my jong to represent a 6 foot man.
When we see WC represented in a movie or something, we see them punching chests and midsections, and this short jong and training the other forms at an unrealistic level is the reason.

[Graham H]

The jong is a simple training tool, doesn't actually teach you anything really.

Which means you obviously don't understand it.


The jong is built to represent a person.

No it's not......sorry I should say it doesn't in my lineage. If you want to work out on a stubby limbed man with one arm sticking out his belly and one leg who can't move then who am I to argue? :D


It as the 2 arms to represent a 2 hand stance position, the middle arm represents an uppercut position or low punch, and the leg of course is the one foot forward stance.

It does not! That is the general opinion in WC but we all know by now the reasons for that.


I find that most white men stand several inches taller than I, and the jong seems to be a man shorter than myself. I suspend my jong to represent a 6 foot man.

That is just completely wrong.............................IMO



When we see WC represented in a movie or something, we see them punching chests and midsections, and this short jong and training the other forms at an unrealistic level is the reason.

:confused::confused:

Before we get embroiled in another flame war lets just say that we have two completely different ideas on Ving Tsun. The only problem is that I "used" to have the same ideas as you until I found a better path.
GH

[bennyvt]

Well I'm a white man and I'm 165cm so that's got to be the dumbest racist statement ever. So what do you do against a black hit as they are all bigger and quicker.

[Xian]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

I think if Wooden Dummy would be useless not so many styles would have adopted it. You can find it in Hung Gar, different Mantis styles, or even Julian Dale seems to use one for its eagle claw. The lesser known "Everlasting Spring"Weng Chun uses also Wooden Dummy.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Graham H]

Can you explain it's 'very specific purposes?'

That's a bizarre question coming from you Spencer! I would have thought that with your very close family relationships to Ip Man you would know secret things that the rest of us don't! :D:p

I can tell from how your dummy is set up that we will have totally conflicting ideas on these "specific purposes" so as I said to that other guy there is no point in more warring! We practice different WC's.

GH

[Sihing73]

Morning,

Thought I would post a few things conisdering some of the things already having been posted.

1. Does the Jong represent a human body? Not really, at least not in any sense of a sparring dummy with the body and arms representing how an opponent stands or how the body will be in position. However, the jong does represent, or perhaps I should say can represent, various parts of the body segments in specific applications. For example, the upper dummy arms can be thought of as the portion of the upper human arm from the elbow back to or even forward to the wrist, depending on technique applied (Taun or Bong and Pak Sau. These do not really represent a punch per se but are more for refining the position of your technique and help show where contact should be as well as refine the angle. Another reason that the arms really can't be said to represent an opponent is that the arms which are not in contact at the time at times "no longer matter as though they do not exist". For example lets say you use your right arm to Pak to the inside of the right (as facing you) you dummy arm. In this instance you would not be concerned with the left dummy arm and it would not in essence exist at that time. However, having said that, there are times when both arms would be in play and in such a case your body position and angle should insure you are out of the line of both. There is a lot more to this than this simple explanation but perhaps this can provide a start.

2. The height of the dummy is an important conisderation but I do not believe it is a racist thing ;). Different people are different heights, even if of the same race. The dummy was originally made for Yip Man and his body structure, this is one reason why, if one has the money etc. it is a good idea to provide your measurements and have a dummy custom made for you. When playing the dummy your stance should put your upper chest in line with the two upper arms, or at least that is how I was taught. With this in mind, setting the height of your dummy at a lower position will help you train a lower stance and placing it higher will help to train to apply against taller opponents. Also, having a dummy with adjustable height can allow more than one person to use the same dummy and adjust it to fit thier body.

3. The dummy may not "teach" us anything. However I do believe that proper training on the dummy will go a long way to refining our skills. I also believe that working the dummy may result in an AH HA moment where something is made clearer.

4. I think that in real fights attacks to the body do more damage and have caused more knockouts than headshots. Look at Boxing and you can find some real nice bodyshot knockouts, of course there are headshots as well.
A funny thing to me is that many are headhunters when doing Chi Sau :rolleyes:

Anyhow, those are some thoughts early in the morning as I prepare to make my kids breakfast and run them to school. Enjoy the rest of your day.

[LoneTiger108]

I can tell from how your dummy is set up that we will have totally conflicting ideas on these "specific purposes" so as I said to that other guy there is no point in more warring! We practice different WC's.

Thankfully we have different ideas, yours caused by WSL and PB having their own ideas and mine caused by simply being taught Wing Chun without the ego. Funny that ;) :D

Of course, just from the set-up of my wooden man we must have a different purpose, so what's yours? Why are you so different than everyone else??

[TenTigers]

Morning,

Thought I would post a few things conisdering some of the things already having been posted.

1. Does the Jong represent a human body? Not really, at least not in any sense of a sparring dummy with the body and arms representing how an opponent stands or how the body will be in position. However, the jong does represent, or perhaps I should say can represent, various parts of the body segments in specific applications. For example, the upper dummy arms can be thought of as the portion of the upper human arm from the elbow back to or even forward to the wrist, depending on technique applied (Taun or Bong and Pak Sau. These do not really represent a punch per se but are more for refining the position of your technique and help show where contact should be as well as refine the angle. Another reason that the arms really can't be said to represent an opponent is that the arms which are not in contact at the time at times "no longer matter as though they do not exist". For example lets say you use your right arm to Pak to the inside of the right (as facing you) you dummy arm. In this instance you would not be concerned with the left dummy arm and it would not in essence exist at that time. However, having said that, there are times when both arms would be in play and in such a case your body position and angle should insure you are out of the line of both. There is a lot more to this than this simple explanation but perhaps this can provide a start.

2. The height of the dummy is an important conisderation but I do not believe it is a racist thing ;). Different people are different heights, even if of the same race. The dummy was originally made for Yip Man and his body structure, this is one reason why, if one has the money etc. it is a good idea to provide your measurements and have a dummy custom made for you. When playing the dummy your stance should put your upper chest in line with the two upper arms, or at least that is how I was taught. With this in mind, setting the height of your dummy at a lower position will help you train a lower stance and placing it higher will help to train to apply against taller opponents. Also, having a dummy with adjustable height can allow more than one person to use the same dummy and adjust it to fit thier body.

3. The dummy may not "teach" us anything. However I do believe that proper training on the dummy will go a long way to refining our skills. I also believe that working the dummy may result in an AH HA moment where something is made clearer.

4. I think that in real fights attacks to the body do more damage and have caused more knockouts than headshots. Look at Boxing and you can find some real nice bodyshot knockouts, of course there are headshots as well.
A funny thing to me is that many are headhunters when doing Chi Sau :rolleyes:

Anyhow, those are some thoughts early in the morning as I prepare to make my kids breakfast and run them to school. Enjoy the rest of your day.
great post. You're putting out some great information, which is really why we have a forum.
Graham, why don't you share your thoughts on the MYJ, rather than simply stating that you know and everybody else does not, which in my opinion, is not contributing.

[LoneTiger108]

Graham, why don't you share your thoughts on the MYJ, rather than simply stating that you know and everybody else does not, which in my opinion, is not contributing.

You may be wasting your breath.

And I agree. Daves post was good. But great? That's all I will say :(

[TenTigers]

You may be wasting your breath.

And I agree. Daves post was good. But great? That's all I will say :(

And in saying that.....

when all you see is back and forth t1t for tat, it is a breath of fresh air.

Although not a WC practitioner (used to study it years ago) I still use my jong.
I use it for power generation, rooting, positioning, conditioning.
Whenever I get an idea, I like to work it out on the jong, work my placement, distance, angles, footwork.
Then..I grab my Si-Dai and play with it.
THEN..I grab my Si-Hing and play with it.
Lastly, I play with my Sifu..
get trashed....
and go back to the jong...

[sanjuro_ronin]

And in saying that.....

when all you see is back and forth t1t for tat, it is a breath of fresh air.

Although not a WC practitioner (used to study it years ago) I still use my jong.
I use it for power generation, rooting, positioning, conditioning.
Whenever I get an idea, I like to work it out on the jong, work my placement, distance, angles, footwork.
Then..I grab my Si-Dai and play with it.
THEN..I grab my Si-Hing and play with it.
Lastly, I play with my Sifu..
get trashed....
and go back to the jong...

I kind of do what Rik does, I use it to "bounce off ideas".
I also do use it as a conditioning device because, well, it works real well in that regard.
You can't really develop any direct fighting attributes with it per say, since you are NOT fighting it and it is NOT fighting you back.

[LoneTiger108]

when all you see is back and forth t1t for tat, it is a breath of fresh air.

I see what you're saying here man...

I personally will try to be less t1t-for-tat ;)

[anerlich]

Does the Jong represent a human body?

No, it represents the body of the aliens who will overrun what remains of the planet after the 2012 apocalypse.

Prepare yourself now! Get a mook jong and practice your a$$ off!

[Runlikehell]

No, it represents the body of the aliens who will overrun what remains of the planet after the 2012 apocalypse.

Prepare yourself now! Get a mook jong and practice your a$$ off!

You haven't recently gone into the business of making and selling mook jong's have you? That sounds like a marketing ploy.

:)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Well I'm a white man and I'm 165cm so that's got to be the dumbest racist statement ever. So what do you do against a black hit as they are all bigger and quicker.

Racist? What makes that racist? I am only 5'4" tall, and most white men are indeed much taller than that. I am probably average of the Chinese men that I know. And hey, color don't matter. I would hit a black man just as soon as I would hit a white man. I have even been known to hit a chinaman. And you said that the black man is quicker and bigger, not me. Is that racist? I bet you even think Chinc is a racist slur.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Which means you obviously don't understand it.



No it's not......sorry I should say it doesn't in my lineage. If you want to work out on a stubby limbed man with one arm sticking out his belly and one leg who can't move then who am I to argue? :D


It does not! That is the general opinion in WC but we all know by now the reasons for that.



That is just completely wrong.............................IMO




:confused::confused:

Before we get embroiled in another flame war lets just say that we have two completely different ideas on Ving Tsun. The only problem is that I "used" to have the same ideas as you until I found a better path.
GH

Thats fine. We all have our own opinions. I don't think that I have any illusions about the jong or it's use, have used one for a very long time. It is a very important piece of equipment I think.
Rather than tell me that I am wrong, why not tell me what you think is right. Explain the specific purpose you spoke of. I only know about my own Wing Chun, and have never heard of all these other lineages spoken of. I would enjoy reading what you feel is the real purpose of the jong. I am not into all the philosophical stuff that is often tossed around. I am a practical man.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't know who invented the jong, but he was a sharp man. I also realize that it has taken many shapes over the years. If a person wants to practice or train his attack and defense and has no one to practice on, he does what he can. He makes a simulation of another person. He can beat the hell ouf ot this other person with no complaints. Not the same, but better than nothing.
Most people don't take a stance with both their arms extended full length, so stubby is the way to go. If you fight the average person, not another WC person, but the average person on the street, he will usually attempt to box with you. He will hold his arms closer in to his body to cover up and defend himself. Stubby arms at best. Most people will extend a foot forward when boxing. Well, in most fighting stances they do that. And on occasion someone will indeed attempt an uppercut or a low or belly punch. The jong is built with all that in mind. It was not to conceal any mysterious stuff or create anything other than to allow one to just turn loose.
I read and hear of time, space, and energy and all that stuff, but it really don't mean anything. It can all be put into plain and simple terms, mostly because there is no mystery about it at all. I started training WC 56 years ago now, and I have been enlightened, unenlightened, enlightened again, and finally, I have come to realize that it is all just very simple and there are no mysteries in WC.

[anerlich]

You haven't recently gone into the business of making and selling mook jong's have you? That sounds like a marketing ploy.

:)

It disappoints me that you would consider even for a moment that I would seek to profit from disaster :p

[LoneTiger108]

I started training WC 56 years ago now, and I have been enlightened, unenlightened, enlightened again, and finally, I have come to realize that it is all just very simple and there are no mysteries in WC.

Well said Jackie. You actually sound like my own Sifu! :) Although even he hasn't had the years you have notched up.

Being a literal baby to the system I too have had my ups and downs, especially with regards to the wooden man practise as I could never understand how what I was seeing was high level stuff. The 108 wasn't a big part of my learning, and it was taught quite differently than what I saw (but the same in many respects!) Once I saw it actually moving, I was hooked.

Recently I revised the whole thing and can see now what I coudln't see 10 years ago. The wooden man simply rocks imho!! And I definitely woudln't have had to get my own one if I had stayed training with my Sifu, as I always used his ones.

This is what I mean by the wooden man representing your Sifu. It reminds you what is and isn't necessary. It hurts you if you go wild. And it gradually helps to build you into a very specific type of Martial Artist. I find it is also one of the best teaching tools we have in Wing Chun, but that's just my opinion.

[bennyvt]

Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights

[Graham H]

Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights

Correct!! At last!

The dummy is set in a way for checking and improving position. The angle of the top two arms and the height check your elbow postion. The leg and the middle arm are for reference. The "limbs" do not represent a human beings arms and legs. The dummy cannot fight you back. It is true that the dummy will show you your mistakes because it corrects your position.

Lets take Spencers dummy as an example. It's too high so you won't be able to train the correct postions. All you can do is make some WC moves on it that will be incorrect.

The dummy has to be tailored to the individual. The height of the arms is essential and should be set to around mid chest height so that when we "play" it, it gives feedback for the correct elbow position. When we close into the dummy three points should always meet so we can also improve syncronicity of movement and perfect structure. That is the reason for the dummy limbs. The limbs also define the limits in which you can move because in fighting a common mistake is to overshoot. The dummy also teaches one how to recover from bad postion.

All the posts above would be incorrect in my lineage. In order to understand the dummy you have possess a certain way of thinking. Any fool can say it is to practice your techniques on.

So the answert to the original question is that without the dummy we would not be able to improve our actions. It is no way useless. Some people can grasp the thinking behind the dummy whilst other take 10 years and they are still finding stuff out.

I wonder who that is! :D

GH

[Graham H]

........................misinterpreted versions beleive that Ving Tsun is about controlling with the wrist. It's not! its about developing control with the elbow. SLT starts this process. CK teaches how to use this process and the dummy improves this process. Obviously something that Yip Man only taught to his more gifted students.

GH

[bennyvt]

Good to see I brouht the teacher out of you. I like your explanations when you give them

[Graham H]

Thanks but my post only touches the surface. I'm not going to write a big article on the wooden man because I know some clowns will come on here and rubbish it! That is Wing Chun today!

[LoneTiger108]

Lets take Spencers dummy as an example. It's too high so you won't be able to train the correct postions. All you can do is make some WC moves on it that will be incorrect.

The dummy has to be tailored to the individual. The height of the arms is essential and should be set to around mid chest height so that when we "play" it, it gives feedback for the correct elbow position.

According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?

http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.

Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?

Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...



... So the answert to the original question is that without the dummy we would not be able to improve our actions. It is no way useless. Some people can grasp the thinking behind the dummy whilst other take 10 years and they are still finding stuff out.

I wonder who that is! :D

You just can't help yourself can you?

I will say what I think now about having the arms pointing at the centre of the chest:

It is fine if you're punching the body of the mook jong above the upper arms, but I do not (ever!) do that. I drill 'into' the triangle of the top two arms as in my clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5oE5VNHg&feature=player_embedded#!
My Sifu showing the fistwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEz8pSlQl94&feature=related

According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!

Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!

Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.

[Graham H]

According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?

That is a publicity shot Spencer. I asked the same question myself!!!!!



And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.

I didnt say center of the chest. The arms have to be roughly in line with your tits! If the dummy has been set correctly then you should be sitting in YJKYM and when you perform the first action (a punch) the elbow should make contact with inside of the corresponding arm somewhere at the end. this is why the angle between the arms and the height are important.



Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?

A punch or a chop!


Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...

Its not a person! :rolleyes:


You just can't help yourself can you?

Not where your concerned because you keep going on about this close relationship to Yip Man but I consider that to be wrong!




According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!

You cannot perform a correct bong sau on the dummy just like some other actions because the dummy is fixed. You have to look at it in shades of grey not black and white. Unless you have been taught this you will not understand.


Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!

Wrong!


Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.

Thats correct Spencer its "your" way! Originally there were not many versions of Ving Tsun. These many versions today have evloved from misinterpretation, lack of knowledge and by people who just make things up to fill in the gaps!
Whether you believe or not like it, that is the truth.

GH

[Graham H]

You are not the only one who tries to make assumptions based on photos. People have done it with WSL as well. Video footage is another monster for the same things.

G

[LoneTiger108]

That is a publicity shot Spencer. I asked the same question myself!!!!!

Not according to Ip Chun and my Sigung. They were very precise pictures containing the core of the 108 images. And that was Ip Mans wooden man too, sitting in the same place it had been in for his HK duration.


I didnt say center of the chest.

But you did.


A punch or a chop!

Let's say punch...


Not where your concerned because you keep going on about this close relationship to Yip Man but I consider that to be wrong!

And so you will :rolleyes: because you have bought into whay you have been told too. ;)


Originally there were not many versions of Ving Tsun. These many versions today have evloved from misinterpretation, lack of knowledge and by people who just make things up to fill in the gaps!
Whether you believe or not like it, that is the truth.

I KNOW that is the truth, it's just you think my Sigung was a part of all that whereas I would be looking more at the ones who made their living from Wing Chun, because that's where the changes had to be made! What is your hang up with other families possibly having a closer relationship to Ip Man?? Have you been blinded by a movie or something?? It's admirable that you have the loyalty, but... well I will leave it there.

The more quality time you have with a Sifu the less chance you have of misinterpreting anything, and I am comfortable knowing I spent enough time to iron out these things you argue about.

[LoneTiger108]

You are not the only one who tries to make assumptions based on photos. People have done it with WSL as well. Video footage is another monster for the same things.

Yet, this is what people ask for all the time??!!!

I even saw on FB that Dave Peterson had cross words with a lifetime friend of WSL about a photo of himself with a pole being different than what WSLs friend remembered :eek:

Same goes for video. Actually, this is where the poison leaked for the first time into the Wing Chun community and it has yet to recover imho

[Graham H]

Not according to Ip Chun and my Sigung. They were very precise pictures containing the core of the 108 images. And that was Ip Mans wooden man too, sitting in the same place it had been in for his HK duration.

I persnally wouldn't listen to anything Ip Chun says. He has my respect because of the family tie but Wing Chun wise no way!



But you did.

Clutching at straws now me thinks.



And so you will :rolleyes: because you have bought into whay you have been told too. ;)

I have bought into a method after studying, trying out and talking to many other lineages. HK and Foshan. Second best would be giving them too much credit.



I KNOW that is the truth, it's just you think my Sigung was a part of all that whereas I would be looking more at the ones who made their living from Wing Chun, because that's where the changes had to be made! What is your hang up with other families possibly having a closer relationship to Ip Man?? Have you been blinded by a movie or something?? It's admirable that you have the loyalty, but... well I will leave it there.

There is only one dude that is blind. You have fallen for a puddle of lies and bad wing chun hook, line and sinker.


The more quality time you have with a Sifu the less chance you have of misinterpreting anything, and I am comfortable knowing I spent enough time to iron out these things you argue about.

I consider you to be involved (along with Austin Goh) in one of the families that has deviated from the path for whatever reason. I would sooner practice Ip Chun Wing Chun or no Wing Chun at all.

I will read your response but I won't reply. I'm bored as I expect everybody else is.

G

[LoneTiger108]

I will read your response but I won't reply. I'm bored as I expect everybody else is.

Considering what you have just posted I don't blame you. :eek:

But I will not respond to you either G. Its nice to finally see where your coming from and I respect that.

[wingchunIan]

According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?

http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.

Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?

Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...




You just can't help yourself can you?

I will say what I think now about having the arms pointing at the centre of the chest:

It is fine if you're punching the body of the mook jong above the upper arms, but I do not (ever!) do that. I drill 'into' the triangle of the top two arms as in my clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5oE5VNHg&feature=player_embedded#!
My Sifu showing the fistwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEz8pSlQl94&feature=related

According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!

Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!

Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.

Just as an observation the arms of the dummy at the VTAA are about level with my chest, of course I'm 6'3" so I'm considerably taller than most of the regular pracitioners at the VTAA. Now it could be that they have been kind enough to set the dummy up just like that for when i visit each year but its kind of unlikely so I guess for regular daily visitors to the VTAA the arms are somewhere around their shoulder height (although as they are not all exactly the same height the precise part of their anatomy lining up with the arms will be somewhere between chest and shoulder in most cases). Now of course all of the well known and well respected sifus (respected by anyone with an ounce of sense) including both sons of Ip Man who would have seen (and practised on) their father's dummy daily, who teach at the VTAA could be wrong.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights

The only dumb thing here is your hang up with race. It is a fact of life that some races are taller than other races. Nothing racist about that unless mother nature is a racist. The Chinese on average were really short compared to the European races. White folks. And the jong fit them pretty much. When you move up to a head taller, the jong gets too short. It is not that height for a purpose other than the fact of it being something developed and used by short people. If it were developed in Europe, or maybe in Australia, it would likely have been a bit taller.
My own jong had the ability of being altered in elevation. The way you guys talk, some Chinaman sat down and put all this special meaning into his little invention so as to be all special and mysterious. I personally doubt that. He was probably just a bit ambitious and went to sticking broom handles into a tree or post and went from there. Adding a leg, maybe another arm. Or maybe someone else took it another step. Everyone is always looking for special, hidden meanings in the forms and in the dummy, and this my friend is why so many people laugh at Wing Chun.

[bennyvt]

The height should depend on. The person playing it not the size of the person you think you ill be fighting that is my point

[Graham H]

Just as an observation the arms of the dummy at the VTAA are about level with my chest, of course I'm 6'3" so I'm considerably taller than most of the regular pracitioners at the VTAA. Now it could be that they have been kind enough to set the dummy up just like that for when i visit each year but its kind of unlikely so I guess for regular daily visitors to the VTAA the arms are somewhere around their shoulder height (although as they are not all exactly the same height the precise part of their anatomy lining up with the arms will be somewhere between chest and shoulder in most cases). Now of course all of the well known and well respected sifus (respected by anyone with an ounce of sense) including both sons of Ip Man who would have seen (and practised on) their father's dummy daily, who teach at the VTAA could be wrong.

The dummy should be set to the person using it. The dummy in VTAA is set for general use. There are a lot of people that use that dummy and it would be impossible to set it for every single person. It's better set a little high if this is the case as taller people wouldn't be able to move around it too good from a very low stance. If one's teacher knows his stuff then these things should be explained as WSL explained it to my Teacher and him to me.

I am one of those senseless people you must be reffering to. I studied Ip chun Wing Chun for quite a few years. I also have a close friend who studied Ip Ching Wing Chun for many years. They are different systems for some obscure reason.

My own opinion is that WSL's way of thinking a fighting is head and shoulders above those two guys but that is just "MY" opinion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder or so they say.

GH

[k gledhill]

The dummy should be set to the person using it. The dummy in VTAA is set for general use. There are a lot of people that use that dummy and it would be impossible to set it for every single person. It's better set a little high if this is the case as taller people wouldn't be able to move around it too good from a very low stance. If one's teacher knows his stuff then these things should be explained as WSL explained it to my Teacher and him to me.

I am one of those senseless people you must be reffering to. I studied Ip chun Wing Chun for quite a few years. I also have a close friend who studied Ip Ching Wing Chun for many years. They are different systems for some obscure reason.

My own opinion is that WSL's way of thinking a fighting is head and shoulders above those two guys but that is just "MY" opinion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder or so they say.

GH

Agree about different , I have chi-saoed with both sons :confused:

[k gledhill]

The dummy is a workout station for us, with fixed arms/points, on an immovable vertical axis line. Based on VT tactical objectives drilling on a MYJ will show the ease with which a humans axis can be utilized against any size, both physically and opportunistically.

Our displacing 'shock force', Ging, aka kinetic displacing energy is maximized, contained within the parameters of the fixed angle arms.

The delivery of the VT UNITY makes 1 sound :
Using synchronistic ideas of lat sao chet chung, simultaneous delivery of attacking limbs and body weight in motion we cycle repeatedly through lin sil di dar (simultaneous attack/defense) on a broader level while at the same time developing individual arms with da sao jik siu sao ( attacking hand in the lead is also the defending centered elbow, jum/tan, 1cm or death ), with faat lik siu lik (issue force, dispersing force) at all times.

The dummy constrains our motion within its angles, it is fixed so we are stopped sharply within our own boundaries rather than go past certain points opening ourselves to 'ourselves'. We shift our stances to coincide with arms. We learn to release power and relax. How to avoid having our own force disrupt us , pull ourselves off balance, push ourselves off balance, correct our structure angles, hips in out ? shoulders square at every exchange, facing chasing , pivoting force....

The dummy is not a person, means it isn't the focus of our turning away from and then turning back to refacing like misinterpreted chi-sao, as if it was a person we turned away from, then turned back again ! Wherever we turn is where the attack line is, ie our centerline points at our opponent, except in case of BG where we have made an error and overturned requiring recovery/correction...

This centerline of ours can point to unseen areas besides the dummy body, ergo we move off to the sides as if we have gone to attack an imaginary position, then return to the dummy as if continuing to attack a target shifting back towards the dummy's main body position.
This is a confusing part of chisao, when guys try to use turning actions to redirect force and think the same on the dummy....so when you engage an arm by turning it becomes a "line of force" to use and cycle on , stepping out of the dummy and re-entering to the sides isnt a 'move' but a drilling action to reface a moving object that went another direction, so we correct ourselves and go after it attacking.

The lateral shifting is attacking footwork "cutting the way" lat sao chet chung on a broader level ,to bear down on a target without stepping with a lead leg into its center, we move laterally to develop this thinking.

One of the things this will give VT practitioners is the idea that you turn to face the target, not to redirect force as another misconception in chi-sao drilling, but face an attack. It changes the foundation of your thinking ....and makes a lot of 'chi-sao moves' redundant to actual fighting, like using two arms equally extended...Why Chi-sao competitions are redudnant to VT fighting ideas, its like re-enforcing wrong ideas in bad drill execution, it should be compliant, but that's another thread !

The height of the dummy as mentioned previously has to allow the individual to develop their prospective elbow / body unity so they dont deliver lifting, reaching, overextended, hinging levers. If you dont understand that, then you're in for a rude reality check. Elbows , elbows, elbows, from inception to fruition....SLT elbows , body . CK elbows body in motion. BG recover elbows , break rules to recover....elbows , body... MYJ is all of the system at work.


There's more but is confusing, unless you share the thinking of YM > WSL> PB > it becomes a new way of thinking, developing.

[Sean66]

Nice post Kevin!

[wingchunIan]

Agree about different , I have chi-saoed with both sons :confused:

They are bound to be different. Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

[Graham H]

They are bound to be different. Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

I understand where you are coming from Ian. I used to believe the same things. Truth is it has nothing to do with how tall they are and they both weren't taught the whole system by Yip Man either. That is fact but Yip Chun especially likes you to think that.

Its not a case of "own personal interpretation". It wasn't until I left the Yip Chun lineage that I saw how wrong his ideas are. Yip Chun and Yip Ching are never listed in the small group of people that Yip Man actually taught much to. Wong Shun Leung was not far off Yip Chun in height so how are you going to explain why they have toatally different ideas about Wing Chun??? Let me guess....."interpretation"? One of my old Teachers used that excuse until I found out that he mainly liked to take pictures and talk rather than train and learn. Blood ties in Ving Tsun mean nothing.

I watched a film the other day about the legend of Yip Man. I was quite enjoying it until Yip Chun stepped up as Leung Bik and started sprouting that nonsense. It does nothing for Yip Man's legendary status IMO. Absolute poppy****!

GH

[Graham H]

good post kev............the first part of the booklet got returned as a faliure notice. I will send again tomorrow. They are on my work PC.

G

[GlennR]

The dummy is a workout station for us, with fixed arms/points, on an immovable vertical axis line. Based on VT tactical objectives drilling on a MYJ will show the ease with which a humans axis can be utilized against any size, both physically and opportunistically.

Our displacing 'shock force', Ging, aka kinetic displacing energy is maximized, contained within the parameters of the fixed angle arms.

The delivery of the VT UNITY makes 1 sound :
Using synchronistic ideas of lat sao chet chung, simultaneous delivery of attacking limbs and body weight in motion we cycle repeatedly through lin sil di dar (simultaneous attack/defense) on a broader level while at the same time developing individual arms with da sao jik siu sao ( attacking hand in the lead is also the defending centered elbow, jum/tan, 1cm or death ), with faat lik siu lik (issue force, dispersing force) at all times.

The dummy constrains our motion within its angles, it is fixed so we are stopped sharply within our own boundaries rather than go past certain points opening ourselves to 'ourselves'. We shift our stances to coincide with arms. We learn to release power and relax. How to avoid having our own force disrupt us , pull ourselves off balance, push ourselves off balance, correct our structure angles, hips in out ? shoulders square at every exchange, facing chasing , pivoting force....

The dummy is not a person, means it isn't the focus of our turning away from and then turning back to refacing like misinterpreted chi-sao, as if it was a person we turned away from, then turned back again ! Wherever we turn is where the attack line is, ie our centerline points at our opponent, except in case of BG where we have made an error and overturned requiring recovery/correction...

This centerline of ours can point to unseen areas besides the dummy body, ergo we move off to the sides as if we have gone to attack an imaginary position, then return to the dummy as if continuing to attack a target shifting back towards the dummy's main body position.
This is a confusing part of chisao, when guys try to use turning actions to redirect force and think the same on the dummy....so when you engage an arm by turning it becomes a "line of force" to use and cycle on , stepping out of the dummy and re-entering to the sides isnt a 'move' but a drilling action to reface a moving object that went another direction, so we correct ourselves and go after it attacking.

The lateral shifting is attacking footwork "cutting the way" lat sao chet chung on a broader level ,to bear down on a target without stepping with a lead leg into its center, we move laterally to develop this thinking.

One of the things this will give VT practitioners is the idea that you turn to face the target, not to redirect force as another misconception in chi-sao drilling, but face an attack. It changes the foundation of your thinking ....and makes a lot of 'chi-sao moves' redundant to actual fighting, like using two arms equally extended...Why Chi-sao competitions are redudnant to VT fighting ideas, its like re-enforcing wrong ideas in bad drill execution, it should be compliant, but that's another thread !

The height of the dummy as mentioned previously has to allow the individual to develop their prospective elbow / body unity so they dont deliver lifting, reaching, overextended, hinging levers. If you dont understand that, then you're in for a rude reality check. Elbows , elbows, elbows, from inception to fruition....SLT elbows , body . CK elbows body in motion. BG recover elbows , break rules to recover....elbows , body... MYJ is all of the system at work.


There's more but is confusing, unless you share the thinking of YM > WSL> PB > it becomes a new way of thinking, developing.

Yes, excellent post Kevin

[k gledhill]

good post kev............the first part of the booklet got returned as a faliure notice. I will send again tomorrow. They are on my work PC.

G

Got the lot ! thanks

[LoneTiger108]

They are bound to be different (Ip Chun & Ip Ching) Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

Unfortunately, some people will never have the respect for the Ip Family which is a shame :(

I know a few of the stories and history surrounding Ip Chuns learning so can also understand why people do not see him as our 'leader', but he has never claimed to be a Master of anything. He promotes his fathers legacy. End of. And if younger generations have an issue with that because of what hey've been told, or learnt in the past, that's their choice.

Personally, I will always respect Ip Mans sons, if only out of loyalty to my Sifus and Sigungs wishes. Without him, the Wing Chun system would have never settled in England.

[lance]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

The wooden dummy is the most valuable piece of equipment a WC practitioner can ever use . It corrects your WC blocking and striking techniques as well as the different types of kicks used in WC . It also makes you think logically if you ' re either doing the techniques the right way or wrong way . But the dummy corrects your Wc techniques . If your arms and hands are well conditioned there is a possibility that you can break the wooden dummy ' s arm . But it ' ll be good if you can break the opponents arm , instead of the dummys' arm . Then that way you don ' t need to spend another 100 or 150.00 to replace the dummy ' arm that you broke . Even if the the wooden dummy is rooted to the ground with wooden parts , you can test out you bodys' strength , by trying to push the wooden dummy , forward .

In southern style of kung fu , they talk about horse stance training or moving around using your stances . In WC , we use the crane stance and moving around using WC footwork . Southern style of kung fu , the power comes from the ground goes into your foot and circulates throughout your entire body . So in WC , as long as you ' re training on the dummy or practicing chi sao , but moving around in your WC stances or just standing in the WC stance , you can condition your body . Because , in styles like Hung Gar , Choy li fut , these 2 styles also train on their own wooden dummy , as well as practicing on their horse stance and footwork of their styles and get stronger . And the WC Sil Lum Tao form is our internal form . You can also do taiji and still get the same benefits . Sifu Hawkins Cheung does taiji and WC and also trains on the wooden dummy too .

[trubblman]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

I think the better question is: is the MYJ indispensable? Can one become proficient in VT without MYJ practice? I think the answer is one can become a good VT practitioner without a MYJ.

[Graham H]

I think the better question is: is the MYJ indispensable? Can one become proficient in VT without MYJ practice? I think the answer is one can become a good VT practitioner without a MYJ.

All depends on whether you want to be good or very good. ;)

GH

[shaolinhouse]

Hello,

The Dummy helps to refine the angles of your technique. IMHO, the way the dummy reacts to the force projected into it can help to determine if the techniq is applied at the proper angle. An example is the Bong Sau; when applied the arm should go up and the opposite corner and the body of the dummy should turn slightly. This will indicate the proper angle and even degree of force.

Also when moving around the dummy applying techniques your stance is worked and you can use the reactive force from the dummy to insure your stance is also correct.

My opinion anyhow.

Very well put. The dummy is another tool in your arsenal to further refine your technique.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very well put. The dummy is another tool in your arsenal to further refine your technique.

How does refining your technique to do forms or chi sau help you become a better fighter?

[k gledhill]

How does refining your technique to do forms or chi sau help you become a better fighter?

The myj refines our movement and synchronicity in short bursts
of timing, that is relative to developing ourselves as fighters, not
Chi sao gamers.

[Yoshiyahu]

The myj refines our movement and synchronicity in short bursts
of timing, that is relative to developing ourselves as fighters, not
Chi sao gamers.

Thank you...your the first! to mention the difference between fighting and chi sao gamers...very interesting!

[k gledhill]

Thank you...your the first!

watch the contained, explosive actions.....

1 pak punch
1 jut punch
1 lap punch
1 punch alone to finish

4 punches 3 in sequence with hands and 1 to finish after releasing ....

CLIP OF STRIKING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8gi8gRgxFg&feature=share)

[k gledhill]

Thank you...your the first! to mention the difference between fighting and chi sao gamers...very interesting!

There is a lot we do in chi-sao we dont do in actual fighting. We adopt a mutual facing starting point from which to move off the center of a clock face, relative to lines of force and movement , angling, etc......We adopt roles for each other so we can help develop ideas of attacking and countering attacks.

In chi-sao the fight should be with your elbows and hips not to collapse backwards, not a fight to beat up the guy helping your elbows and hips achieve their goal :D:D

Does a boxer beat up the guy holding the pads for his combinations ? no
Does a boxer knock out the guy coaching him with footwork ? no
Do you bite a heavy bag in a clinch with it :D no why ? because you're training with partners , pieces of equipment enhancing your ability to fight...a sparring partner is not a guy you're out to ko with bombs....you're working ideas, hes throwing stuff for your benefit to react to and counter....seeing a dropped hand as you deliver a strike, a telegraphic shoulder...an off balance counter.
So WHY in chi-sao does everyone try to beat the guy they are training with ? :confused:

[Graham H]

In chi-sao the fight should be with your elbows and hips not to collapse backwards, not a fight to beat up the guy helping your elbows and hips achieve their goal :D:D



Well said! Chi Sau for developing the correct behaviour....not for fighting wars!

GH

[Yoshiyahu]

watch the contained, explosive actions.....

1 pak punch
1 jut punch
1 lap punch
1 punch alone to finish

4 punches 3 in sequence with hands and 1 to finish after releasing ....

CLIP OF STRIKING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8gi8gRgxFg&feature=share)

Good Points


There is a lot we do in chi-sao we dont do in actual fighting. We adopt a mutual facing starting point from which to move off the center of a clock face, relative to lines of force and movement , angling, etc......We adopt roles for each other so we can help develop ideas of attacking and countering attacks.

In chi-sao the fight should be with your elbows and hips not to collapse backwards, not a fight to beat up the guy helping your elbows and hips achieve their goal :D:D

Does a boxer beat up the guy holding the pads for his combinations ? no
Does a boxer knock out the guy coaching him with footwork ? no
Do you bite a heavy bag in a clinch with it :D no why ? because you're training with partners , pieces of equipment enhancing your ability to fight...a sparring partner is not a guy you're out to ko with bombs....you're working ideas, hes throwing stuff for your benefit to react to and counter....seeing a dropped hand as you deliver a strike, a telegraphic shoulder...an off balance counter.
So WHY in chi-sao does everyone try to beat the guy they are training with ? :confused:



So true...In real fighting they want do chi sau...When its time to do chi sau they want to do real fighting! No wonder they get they hats handed to them...thinking Chi Sau is really how a fight is gonna happen!