Why can't we train our striking art the same way as we train our throwing art?

[YouKnowWho]

There are many striking skill that exist in boxing, MT, TKD that doesn't exist in TCMA.

If we compare the Chinese striking art to the Chinese throwing art, old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major throws. The number of minor throws are as many as the number of hair on a cow's body." If the Chinese throwing art can cover all throws, there is no reason that the Chinese striking art can not cover all striks. After all, the number of punch and kick are much less than the number of the throws.

Even if ancient Chinese understood that no one will be able to master all throws in his life time. people still spent their effort to make the Chinese throwing art "complete". It just seems to me that the ancient Chinese didn't do a good job for the "completeness" of the Chinese striking art. Instead of creating a comple TCMA striking system, our ancestors just created too many styles.

If we don't think about "my style does this and your style does that" instead of "how many ways that we can use our punches and kicks", the Chinese striking art may be able to complete oneday.

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?

What's your opinion on this?

[David Jamieson]

Throws and take downs are good to train, I agree.

For striking, I don't train so much for style as precision and force.

[Ben Gash]

I've yet to find anything that doesn't fit within the precepts of my style.

[hskwarrior]

I've yet to find anything that doesn't fit within the precepts of my style.

I second that notion

[MightyB]

There are many striking skill that exist in boxing, MT, TKD that doesn't exist in TCMA.

If we compare the Chinese striking art to the Chinese throwing art, old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major throws. The number of minor throws are as many as the number of hair on a cow's body." If the Chinese throwing art can cover all throws, there is no reason that the Chinese striking art can not cover all striks. After all, the number of punch and kick are much less than the number of the throws.

Even if ancient Chinese understood that no one will be able to master all throws in his life time. people still spent their effort to make the Chinese throwing art "complete". It just seems to me that the ancient Chinese didn't do a good job for the "completeness" of the Chinese striking art. Instead of creating a comple TCMA striking system, our ancestors just created too many styles.

If we don't think about "my style does this and your style does that" instead of "how many ways that we can use our punches and kicks", the Chinese striking art may be able to complete oneday.

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?

What's your opinion on this?

I think styles are bull$hit. If I want to learn a specific way to punch or kick someone, I go and learn it. If I want to learn a new form 'cuz it looks cool regardless of "style", I go out and learn it. There is no style, there are no secrets. it's all just concepts. Now I don't know SC, but Judo is just basically three core throws and a sacrifice... everything else is just a variation of one of those.

[ShaolinDan]

I second that notion

Same here.

[bawang]

shuai doesnt mean throw, it means smash. you guys should think about it.

[YouKnowWho]

I think styles are bull$hit.

Agree with you 100% there. Some XingYi guys may be proud to tell you that his XingYi Beng Chuan is superior than the boxing jab. To me, whether your opponent can be knocked down by your punch or not, that's the only thing that matters.

[Darthlawyer]

Agree with you 100% there. Some XingYi guys may be proud to tell you that his XingYi Beng Chuan is superior than the boxing jab. To me, whether your opponent can be knocked down by your punch or not, that's the only thing that matters.

How about whether or not you can actually land the jab?

[YouKnowWho]

In this forum, some people just like to discuss subjects that only has to do with their style. That's "style boundary" IMO.

[RWilson]

With Wrestlkng it is safer to train full contact.
Striking sparring leads to many injuries.

[YouKnowWho]

With Wrestlkng it is safer to train full contact.
Striking sparring leads to many injuries.

Just like the floor mat can make the wrestling safer, the head gear, chest protection, shin pad, and gloves can make the sparring safer. I had used the Kendo gear for sparring before. When my opponent punched or kicked on my chest, I couldn't even feel anything. That will be too much protection IMO.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=kendo+body+protection&start=19&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=FlNZoIULvcd2PM:&imgrefurl=http://combatcreed.com/en/42-body-armour&docid=X4hYIlvSeyEmWM&w=129&h=129&ei=3FOBTtSSAYHfiALG_qCaDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=385&vpy=396&dur=75&hovh=103&hovw=103&tx=103&ty=64&page=2&tbnh=103&tbnw=103&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:19&biw=1344&bih=659

[diego]

There are many striking skill that exist in boxing, MT, TKD that doesn't exist in TCMA.

If we compare the Chinese striking art to the Chinese throwing art, old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major throws. The number of minor throws are as many as the number of hair on a cow's body." If the Chinese throwing art can cover all throws, there is no reason that the Chinese striking art can not cover all striks. After all, the number of punch and kick are much less than the number of the throws.

Even if ancient Chinese understood that no one will be able to master all throws in his life time. people still spent their effort to make the Chinese throwing art "complete". It just seems to me that the ancient Chinese didn't do a good job for the "completeness" of the Chinese striking art. Instead of creating a comple TCMA striking system, our ancestors just created too many styles.

If we don't think about "my style does this and your style does that" instead of "how many ways that we can use our punches and kicks", the Chinese striking art may be able to complete oneday.

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?

What's your opinion on this?
last I checked Bak Mei doesn't throw swinging punches but they love swinging swords...if you take a fixed stance like they do in MMA and keep your hands up while walking into two dudes with sticks and knives you will get ****ed up I think ancient Chinese realized you better keep it moving and get good at changing posture a lot which is why they have so many foot works and animal stances... MMA is horrible to teach to women for self defense, if she thinks she is going to square up with an NFL lineman she's screwed or how about Rampage Jackson getting dummied by a newbie bones Jones...how is rampage going to defend himself when he is 60 and a young bones Jones Jr decides to **** him up lol what's he gonna do take a boxing posture or pull out a stick and run around like crazy trying to poke at soft spots?.:(

Gung Fu is real **** it's body mechanics passed down from dead warriors...UFC is just a form of hard sparring **** I've seen better fights between teenage girls on a native reserve with no ref's, one beer bottle and a chain with a lock on it.

[RenDaHai]

But I think the Chinese striking art is as complete as any.

In China I have never encountered the 'Thats not in my style' attitude. Every technique has a name. And more often than not that name is the same accross the board from north to south. If a style doesn't have a form that contains a specific technique it will still be happy to practice this technique seperately with its name.

Amongst the old masters I have encountered there is no division between the chinese martial arts in terms of allowed technique. All technique is interchangeable. More often than not the guiding principles of the styles are the same. The theories are the same. Taiji and Shaolin may look different to many people but when isolating the individual techniques you will find they often have the same names and the same use and are done the same way, albeit with slightly different performance flair.

I think there are more strikes than there are throws. Chinese Martial Arts is so diverse that I think anyone would be hard pressed to mention a technique from a non chinese style that does not appear somewhere in a TCMA.

[Frost]

last I checked Bak Mei doesn't throw swinging punches but they love swinging swords...if you take a fixed stance like they do in MMA and keep your hands up while walking into two dudes with sticks and knives you will get ****ed up I think ancient Chinese realized you better keep it moving and get good at changing posture a lot which is why they have so many foot works and animal stances... MMA is horrible to teach to women for self defense, if she thinks she is going to square up with an NFL lineman she's screwed or how about Rampage Jackson getting dummied by a newbie bones Jones...how is rampage going to defend himself when he is 60 and a young bones Jones Jr decides to **** him up lol what's he gonna do take a boxing posture or pull out a stick and run around like crazy trying to poke at soft spots?.:(

Gung Fu is real **** it's body mechanics passed down from dead warriors...UFC is just a form of hard sparring **** I've seen better fights between teenage girls on a native reserve with no ref's, one beer bottle and a chain with a lock on it.

Lol tell you what go face rampage in a no holds fight and see how you do against him.
Your post is a classic example of why TCMA (some of it) is seen in such a poor light by fighters and sports guys: you talk about how bad the UFC is, how bad it is for self defence for a woman or a 60 year old, but you cant post a clip of a young athletic guy using what you are talking about and winning in a safe environment, Yet somehow you think what you do WILL work for someone not as athletic who is older slower and much smaller when there are NO rules

MMA teaches woman how to hit, take getting hit how to deal with an opponent trying to throw them on the ground and how to get up when an opponent is on top of them intent on hurting them….sounds like good self defence to me….. is it all they need no but if they can deal with the above adding some throat shots dangerous tactics etc is easy….if all you have are those and not a good tested delivery system…good luck

On the flip side if you are so sure you can handle a linesman or rampage post clips of yourself training against these guys sparring hard, or heck fighting hard under real pressure so we can see your stances and tactics in action and se how superior it is and how much better it is than this UFC rubbish

And to those who say they don’t need to posts clips that’s fine, but if you cant post clips or find any videos to back up your statements doesn’t that tell you something about the validity of your argument?

But hey you can always just ignore this post and continue to think of yourself as a superman a UFC fighter killing machine :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Why does the deadly "street" always get brought up. How many of you honestly get into all these fights on the deadly "street" you always talk about.:rolleyes:

Here's the thing, if a woman wants REAL self defense than get a concealed weapons permit, buy a handgun, and start going to the firing range on a weekly basis. You can argue styles all you want but in the end a 120lb woman who has some training is still not going to be much fight for a 200lb man. Training striking, clinching, and ground will certainly help but it also depends on the level of training she gets and what she puts into it. Most womens self-defense classes are a joke and probably do more harm than good due to providing a false sense of security.

If you live in a country where guns are illegal, there are other methods. But in the end, a deadly weapon is the only thing that nullifies size, strength, and intent.

[MasterKiller]

MMA is horrible to teach to women for self defense, if she thinks she is going to square up with an NFL lineman she's screwed .

LOL. The guard is Rape Position 101.

Fighting from their back is much more realistic for women than learning tornado kicks.

[ginosifu]

LOL. The guard is Rape Position 101.

Fighting from their back is much more realistic for women than learning tornado kicks.

I would tend to dis agree with this because Iron eagle is correct:


You can argue styles all you want but in the end a 120lb woman who has some training is still not going to be much fight for a 200lb man. Training striking, clinching, and ground will certainly help but it also depends on the level of training she gets and what she puts into it. Most womens self-defense classes are a joke and probably do more harm than good due to providing a false sense of security.

Women do not have the upper body strength to do anything against a man (on average).

Also Iron Eagle, I dis agree with your getting a gun statement. I work with police and swat team members and all agree:

It takes too much time for a person to "Draw" their weapon from their place they put it (purse, pocket, holster etc). In a violent situation such as a rape or mugging, the attacker suddenly comes into grappling range (jumps out of the bushes or behind a car etc) too quickly for a person to "Draw".

Every gun drawing study shows: If a person starts charging within 10', you will not Draw your weapon in time before he is on top of you. Beyond 10' you can successfully Draw. But how many rapists start running at you from beyond 10'?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

Sanford Strong (google him) says the best thing is for a woman to carry pepper spray if she's that worried. She has to have it in her hand and ready to go, not in a purse or pocket though.

[MightyB]

Even if ancient Chinese understood that no one will be able to master all throws in his life time. people still spent their effort to make the Chinese throwing art "complete". It just seems to me that the ancient Chinese didn't do a good job for the "completeness" of the Chinese striking art. Instead of creating a comple TCMA striking system, our ancestors just created too many styles.

If we don't think about "my style does this and your style does that" instead of "how many ways that we can use our punches and kicks", the Chinese striking art may be able to complete oneday.

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?


I think the definition of "complete" is personal. A style is a starting (and ending) point.

You start with a style - learn all you can from that style - personalize it by growing in your opinion beyond that style - then come back to that style with a fresh perspective. This has been going on for hundreds of years.

[MasterKiller]

Women do not have the upper body strength to do anything against a man (on average).

And that's precisely why Jiu-Jitsu relies on leverage and positional dominance.

[wenshu]

I don't think it is question of complete vs incomplete. There are just more variables to consider in wrestling. For every iteration of hand position, foot work, set up and counter there exist a number of throws. Whereas while those variables come into play in striking there are still only a relatively few methods which enable you to use your limbs as projectile weapons. Just because a particular method contains less technique than another doesn't make it incomplete.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would tend to dis agree with this because Iron eagle is correct:



Women do not have the upper body strength to do anything against a man (on average).

Also Iron Eagle, I dis agree with your getting a gun statement. I work with police and swat team members and all agree:

It takes too much time for a person to "Draw" their weapon from their place they put it (purse, pocket, holster etc). In a violent situation such as a rape or mugging, the attacker suddenly comes into grappling range (jumps out of the bushes or behind a car etc) too quickly for a person to "Draw".

Every gun drawing study shows: If a person starts charging within 10', you will not Draw your weapon in time before he is on top of you. Beyond 10' you can successfully Draw. But how many rapists start running at you from beyond 10'?

ginosifu

This is true for a purse or bag or something, however, if it is holstered and concealed they stand a much better chance. Honestly the best self defense and rape prevention is simply awareness and not putting themselves in potentially dangerous situations. But my point was that women who have little training or who go to a three day course are not well prepared to try and fight a man, who most likely is bigger and physically stronger.

As Masterkiller pointed out, the theory behind jiu jitsu is to be able to subdue a bigger, stronger opponent. That takes a lot of training, however, to be on that level. Much more than say a 3 day rape prevention course. So if it comes to that, a deadly weapon nullifies size and strength.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And that's precisely why Jiu-Jitsu relies on leverage and positional dominance.

Leverage can be over come be sheer power and brute force...like the type of power someone who has graduated from the 'Prison Weight lifting program' after doing 5 years for example.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For women I advice "force multiplers"/ impact weapons, improvised weapons and edge weapons.
In terms of H2H, I suggest drills that develop explosive power for strikes and fighting from/ on the ground.

[Ray Pina]

Training a martial art is not a golden ticket. Neither is carrying a weapon.... they're tools you develop to increase your odds as a man or a woman.

As for the original topic: why can't we train our striking the same we we train our throws?

I guess it's better late than never to ask this question but is something that should have been resolved a long time ago. All training should contain equal parts technical/structural/leverage, repetition and live play.

[TenTigers]

how complete your style is is soley dependent upon your thinking.
Tools is tools.
The "keeping within your style," mindset is not old, it's not traditional, it's actually a fairly recent mode of thinking, most likely brought on by teachers' own insecurities.
One of my teachers (and I have mentioned this numerous times) is 76 yrs old, from Guangzhao. He always stated that teachers used to always exchange techniques. If someone had a technique that was good, you said,"That's great. I'm going to add that to my training."
Modern teachers are stagnant. Traditional teachers evolve. It's always been that way..
up till now. Go figure.

[Ray Pina]

Great point.

I would also argue that one's "style" is never complete. It should always be adding and refining and evolving.

[SPJ]

In this forum, some people just like to discuss subjects that only has to do with their style. That's "style boundary" IMO.

focusing or specialization on a certain skill set

they are not limits. but focusing.

1. there are many leg methods in mantis.

I like and focus on "ghost axe leg" gui fu jiao

there are many hand methods in mantis.

I like and focus on "fall knife hand" qiu dao shou

2. I like kao methods from ba ji.

so I used gui fu jiao to enter low or qiu dao shou to get close

and then body/shoulder/forearm kao shuai the opponent.

just one example of many that we focus on certain things with a certain style.

they are not limits.

even M Ali focuses on left hook punch, the rest are setup for him to land "left hook punch".

there are 7 colors in the rainbow.

--

--

:)

[MasterKiller]

Leverage can be over come be sheer power and brute force...like the type of power someone who has graduated from the 'Prison Weight lifting program' after doing 5 years for example.

http://tosh.comedycentral.com/blog/files/2011/09/sexy-outlet.jpg

[ginosifu]

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?

What's your opinion on this?

I do not look at the way you are speaking of. I can take any strike or throw or movement from any style and apply my systems principles and it is my own. I don't know of anyone who thinks that they can not pull from other styles and use their stuff?

What gives? Are there people out there who think that they can only strike a certain way because of their given style?

ginosifu

[diego]

LOL. The guard is Rape Position 101.

Fighting from their back is much more realistic for women than learning tornado kicks. Im talking about swinging swords not jump kicks lol I am curious where UfC is going..typn on a old phone so my txt is short..Randy Couture just retired from fighting because he is old and got beat up by some one younger, does this mean Couture cant defend himself now what is he to do if a working UFC man wants to bully him drop into a BJJ position and wait for the guy?. lol he will just get punched in the face by some young goliath.

[Lucas]

women should just walk around wearing these. :cool:

http://www.weapons-universe.com/Brands/Master_Cutlery/Pantera_Claws-Tom_Anderson.jpg

[Pork Chop]

Im talking about swinging swords not jump kicks lol I am curious where UfC is going..typn on a old phone so my txt is short..Randy Couture just retired from fighting because he is old and got beat up by some one younger, does this mean Couture cant defend himself now what is he to do if a working UFC man wants to bully him drop into a BJJ position and wait for the guy?. lol he will just get punched in the face by some young goliath.

He would not just pull guard, Randy's specialty was never BJJ, it was greco-roman wrestling & dirty boxing.
He retired 2 months shy of 48 years old, after losing one fight, following a 3 fight win streak.
He still owns his gym and still works with fighters like his son.
He's not at home riding the couch, just doesn't want to go through anymore brutal training camps.

Champion boxer Jack Dempsey was mugged at 78 years old in 1973 and fought them off.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231144
http://listverse.com/2009/12/13/top-10-heavyweight-boxers-of-all-time/

Better question: what would YOU do if a working UFC man wanted to bully you?
my guess is just get punched in the face by some young Goliath.

[YouKnowWho]

Most people start learning their throwing skill from "hip throw". Some people like to start their throwing skill training from "single leg". No matter where they start, they will train their skill in the following sequence:

- How many ways can you apply your single leg?
- How many ways can you set up your single leg?
- What do you do after you have obtained your opponent's single leg?
- What if your opponent pulls his leading leg back and you miss it?
- If someone applies single leg on you then how will you defend and counter it?

IMO, this is a very logical learning sequence. As far as I know, most of the TCMA striking art do not use this kind learning sequence, such as:

- How many ways can you apply your front kick?
- How many ways can you set up your front kick?
- What do you do after you have landed your front kick on your opponent's body?
- What if you miss your kick?
- If someone applies front kick at you then how will you defend and counter it?

I just don't see the same comparsion here and I don't understand why?

[Ray Pina]

Now I understand what you are getting at.

I have to say, I'm teaching my student hands the same way.

This is how you jam a jab/straight
This is how you wedge a jab/straight


This is how you jam/wedge a straight and then use the elbow to block the second strike while coming in.....

This is how you jam a jab/hook combo from the same side....

I'd say it's line drills but it's just the two of us with boxing gloves.

I was going to add jam up the one/two and pick the single leg tonight and show him three options for the take down but he missed his first class:eek:

[Fa Xing]

Most people start learning their throwing skill from "hip throw". Some people like to start their throwing skill training from "single leg". No matter where they start, they will train their skill in the following sequence:

- How many ways can you apply your single leg?
- How many ways can you set up your single leg?
- What do you do after you have obtained your opponent's single leg?
- What if your opponent pulls his leading leg back and you miss it?
- If someone applies single leg on you then how will you defend and counter it?

IMO, this is a very logical learning sequence. As far as I know, most of the TCMA striking art do not use this kind learning sequence, such as:

- How many ways can you apply your front kick?
- How many ways can you set up your front kick?
- What do you do after you have landed your front kick on your opponent's body?
- What if you miss your kick?
- If someone applies front kick at you then how will you defend and counter it?

I just don't see the same comparsion here and I don't understand why?

That's how, in so many ways, Jeet Kune Do is taught and trained.

[ginosifu]

Most people start learning their throwing skill from "hip throw". Some people like to start their throwing skill training from "single leg". No matter where they start, they will train their skill in the following sequence:

- How many ways can you apply your single leg?
- How many ways can you set up your single leg?
- What do you do after you have obtained your opponent's single leg?
- What if your opponent pulls his leading leg back and you miss it?
- If someone applies single leg on you then how will you defend and counter it?

IMO, this is a very logical learning sequence. As far as I know, most of the TCMA striking art do not use this kind learning sequence, such as:

- How many ways can you apply your front kick?
- How many ways can you set up your front kick?
- What do you do after you have landed your front kick on your opponent's body?
- What if you miss your kick?
- If someone applies front kick at you then how will you defend and counter it?

I just don't see the same comparsion here and I don't understand why?

There may be CMA schools with a limited approach to training. In my lineage we learned many examples of:

If your lead jab fails.... go to elbow strike
If your lead jab gets blocked... go to Right Cross
If your lead jab gets grabbed.... go to Chin Na technique
etc etc etc
This applies for strikes, kicks, grappling and throwing. On a whole doesn't everyone train this way?

ginosifu

[diego]

He would not just pull guard, Randy's specialty was never BJJ, it was greco-roman wrestling & dirty boxing.
He retired 2 months shy of 48 years old, after losing one fight, following a 3 fight win streak.
He still owns his gym and still works with fighters like his son.
He's not at home riding the couch, just doesn't want to go through anymore brutal training camps.

Champion boxer Jack Dempsey was mugged at 78 years old in 1973 and fought them off.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231144
http://listverse.com/2009/12/13/top-10-heavyweight-boxers-of-all-time/

Better question: what would YOU do if a working UFC man wanted to bully you?
my guess is just get punched in the face by some young Goliath.

I would call the cops thanks for the dempsey link.

[B.Tunks]

- How many ways can you apply your front kick?
- How many ways can you set up your front kick?
- What do you do after you have landed your front kick on your opponent's body?
- What if you miss your kick?
- If someone applies front kick at you then how will you defend and counter it?

I just don't see the same comparsion here and I don't understand why?

This is exactly how I learned and I don't know any other way.

[Howard]

Most people start learning their throwing skill from "hip throw". Some people like to start their throwing skill training from "single leg". No matter where they start, they will train their skill in the following sequence:

- How many ways can you apply your single leg?
- How many ways can you set up your single leg?
- What do you do after you have obtained your opponent's single leg?
- What if your opponent pulls his leading leg back and you miss it?
- If someone applies single leg on you then how will you defend and counter it?

IMO, this is a very logical learning sequence. As far as I know, most of the TCMA striking art do not use this kind learning sequence, such as:

- How many ways can you apply your front kick?
- How many ways can you set up your front kick?
- What do you do after you have landed your front kick on your opponent's body?
- What if you miss your kick?
- If someone applies front kick at you then how will you defend and counter it?

I just don't see the same comparsion here and I don't understand why?

This seems common to TCMA practice ....but that is only a few aspects.... Since only single scenario ....developing the continuum is still necessary (e.g. Predict and judge the opponent side), the natural approach (I.e. Where there is no 'if ...else...then' concept) ...

[YouKnowWho]

This seems common to TCMA practice ....but that is only a few aspects.... Since only single scenario ....developing the continuum is still necessary (e.g. Predict and judge the opponent side), the natural approach (I.e. Where there is no 'if ...else...then' concept) ...

If we expand the "if ... then ... else ..." concept, we will end with a decision tree. Depending on which root node that you start, you will branch out further and further and end with a full growing tree. I think this is the best way to learm TCMA.

[-N-]

If we expand the "if ... then ... else ..." concept, we will end with a decision tree. Depending on which root node that you start, you will branch out further and further and end with a full growing tree. I think this is the best way to learm TCMA.

This is ok for beginners learning.

But for mastery, you have to go beyond technique and control the metagame.

[Robinhood]

Applications are just a tool to develop yourself, if you think you have to learn all applications you are not advancing past the first body level.

[YouKnowWho]

Applications are just a tool to develop yourself, if you think you have to learn all applications you are not advancing past the first body level.
What's your definition of "application"? Do you consider

- jab, cross, hook punch, upper cut, ...
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, crescent kick, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- hip throw, leg twist, leg lift, front cut, ...

as different applications or different principles?

[Pork Chop]

Relevant to this discussion - but how many techniques & counters do you need?
The more options you have, the slower your brain chooses an option.
So the idea of having thousands of counters to every technique doesn't make biological sense, let alone the time you'd have to spend refining all of those options.

At my gym we have 2 main trainers: the head coach and his coach.
Head coach likes a very defensive style, lots of techniques, lots of counters to each technique, very mobile, definite Chinese influence.
Coach's coach very much follows the old adage "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". He has maybe 4 go-to counters that he uses for just about everything. Everything is an excuse to get to clinch and bust them up with knees.

Coach's coach has been in Vegas lately, taking over Toddy's gym since he fled the country.
Head coach has been having me work a lot of defense drills.
We've been doing 4 to 6 counters for each technique.
While it's awesome to have that body of knowledge available to find what you like, I have to wonder about applicability.
The other day I was working defense drills with a guy who's been gone a while.
After we finished up, he went to go spar one of the new guys.
He did not use a single d@mn counter that we had been working on.

My personal opinion is 2 or 3 counters to the techniques that you know you're going to see is the max you should really train. You don't need 1000 counters to a straight punch if none of them are going to come out.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Relevant to this discussion - but how many techniques & counters do you need?
The more options you have, the slower your brain chooses an option.
So the idea of having thousands of counters to every technique doesn't make biological sense, let alone the time you'd have to spend refining all of those options.

At my gym we have 2 main trainers: the head coach and his coach.
Head coach likes a very defensive style, lots of techniques, lots of counters to each technique, very mobile, definite Chinese influence.
Coach's coach very much follows the old adage "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". He has maybe 4 go-to counters that he uses for just about everything. Everything is an excuse to get to clinch and bust them up with knees.

Coach's coach has been in Vegas lately, taking over Toddy's gym since he fled the country.
Head coach has been having me work a lot of defense drills.
We've been doing 4 to 6 counters for each technique.
While it's awesome to have that body of knowledge available to find what you like, I have to wonder about applicability.
The other day I was working defense drills with a guy who's been gone a while.
After we finished up, he went to go spar one of the new guys.
He did not use a single d@mn counter that we had been working on.

My personal opinion is 2 or 3 counters to the techniques that you know you're going to see is the max you should really train. You don't need 1000 counters to a straight punch if none of them are going to come out.


QFT! Would also like to add throws and takedowns to that equation. I often hear people talk about how they have hundreds of throws and takedowns in their system, be it Shuai Jiao, Judo, whatever. But how many of those throws do you actually do while sparring.

Particulary when I am doing San Shou sparring I have about 4 go to throws that I use quite a bit, hip throw from under/over hook, single leg, double leg uproot, and a modified arm tie up throw. Now, I know other throws and practice them but I find these are my "effective" throws.

This really can be broken down with everything. Punches I use of course jab, cross, hook, shovel hook, and upset. Occasionaly uppercut but has never been one of my specialites. Kicks are front kick, roundhouse, side thrust, hook, and ax. Occasionaly I will break out a crescent to swat someone's hands and set up something else, usuallly a side thrust.

The point being there are hundreds maybe thousands of techniques you can learn but as Chop said learning them, training them, and making them effective would be near impossible. Quality will almost always out do quantity.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't need 1000 counters to a straight punch if none of them are going to come out.
I'll even make that simplier. I'll suggest just one counter for all punches and that's to wrap your opponent's arms like an octopus wraps around a shark.

http://www.picturesof.net/pages/090501-191127-314052.html

There are not that many counters in the striking art. But there are more counters for the throwing art. To counter a single leg or to counter a hip throw, you will need different counters for it.


QFT! Would also like to add throws and takedowns to that equation. I often hear people talk about how they have hundreds of throws and takedowns in their system, be it Shuai Jiao, Judo, whatever. But how many of those throws do you actually do while sparring.
There are more than 60 different categories of throws such as,

- hip throw,
- leg block,
- leg lift,
- pulling,
- twist and spring,
- foot sweep,
- shoulder strike,
- leg seize,
- fireman's carry,
- ...

Each category has average 6 to 8 different throws with different "angles" and different "contact points". Both the leg block and foot sweep categories each has more than 30 different throws. So the "major" throw will come up to about 400.

If we want to talk about minor throws, when you use "front cut (Osoto Gari)",

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

you can use your hand to push your opponent's:

- same side shoulder,
- other side shoulder,
- throat,
- chin,
- face,
- forehead,
- side of face,
- ...

A "major" throw can then be divided into many "minor" throws.

Since life time is so short, you can:

- write a book for 400 throws.
- make a DVD for 200 throws.
- teach a workshop for 100 throw.
- demo in public for 50 throw.
- fight in tournamet for 25 throws.
- fight in the street for 10 throws.

There is a big difference between knowing how to do it "in your head" and being able to do it "on your body" and that's the reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Simplicity rocks.

Boxing is highly effective and it has only 4 punches.

Most judo matches are won by one of half a dozen throws, most submission matches won by one of half a dozen subs.

[YouKnowWho]

Simplicity rocks.

Boxing is highly effective and it has only 4 punches.

Most judo matches are won by one of half a dozen throws, most submission matches won by one of half a dozen subs.

Agree with you 100% there.

The Ohio State University SC team defeated UT Austin SC team back in 1981 and 1982. But the UT Austin SC team defeated Ohio State University SC team in 1983 and 1984 by just 1 move and that was "single leg". The Ohio State University SC team coach Dr. Daniel Weng even said, "You guys all use single leg." The UT Austin guys used more than 15 different way to get the single leg.

[wenshu]

Everything is an excuse to get to clinch and bust them up with knees.

Me likey.///////////

[SPJ]

There are not that many counters in the striking art. - ...



yes dodge or move away. an inch is all we need to make it miss.

ideally we advance our fist/elbow/body at the same time and mount counterattack

and not stepping half step to the side or back.

it is called

"you hit me. I hit you at the same time." in baji.

in more details

1 at arm length, we intercept with wrist with chan or hook

2. at elbow length, we move or push his elbow away

3. at close/near range, we kao away by stepping into between his 2 legs or line of center of his gravity.

forearm kao to his chest/back/waist/neck while one of our leg moving back or to the side.

Gua Ta.

:)

[Robinhood]

The application or interaction are ways of finding your balance. Once you have found your balance , you make your own techniques.

Lets say once you learn how to walk, you can walk any way you want, you don,t need to learn any more, you are balanced, then maintain that balance in interaction.

[Fa Xing]

Bruce Lee's big thing was simplicity as well, when I have talked to both Sifu Jerry Poteet and my own teacher (his student) they both said that Bruce kept it to mainly Jab (and it's variations), Cross, Hook, Uppercut, and the backfist. With kicks, it was mainly the hook kick, side kick, front snap kick, and the oblique kick. These techniques combined with the Five Ways of Attack are very effective for fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

Bruce Lee's big thing was simplicity as well, when I have talked to both Sifu Jerry Poteet and my own teacher (his student) they both said that Bruce kept it to mainly Jab (and it's variations), Cross, Hook, Uppercut, and the backfist. With kicks, it was mainly the hook kick, side kick, front snap kick, and the oblique kick. These techniques combined with the Five Ways of Attack are very effective for fighting.

If Bruce Lee's JKD involved deeply with the throwing art (with clinch range), he won't be able to use the word "simplicity" any more.

When you apply your

- single leg, you have to avoid your opponent's kick, knee, punch, elbow, reverse head lock (guillotine), forehead push, body drop, kiss dirt, ...
- hip throw, you have to avoid your opponent's crack, spin, sink, head lock, head twist, chin push, helmet remove, ...

In order to avoid all those problems, you have to land your feet at the right position, move in at the right moment, position your arms at the right angle, ... It will be much more complicate than just a "punch to the face".

In a WC sticky hand discussion thread, I asked a question, "What will happen if your opponet grabs on your wrist or elbow joint?" Thing will just get more complicate after that.

[Fa Xing]

I for one have limited experience when it comes to throwing and grappling arts, so I can't say for sure how things would have turned out in JKD if Bruce had continued with his early stages of grappling.

That being said, I know about 4-5 throws that I have drilled quite a bit, and really it's all been about set up from there.

One of the Five Ways of Attack is Hand/Hair/Leg Immobilization attack, this is where he combined Trapping, Chin na, and grappling. I definitely drilled various scenarios in which we could be grapped, etc. But in my experience from just sparring, not even fighting, that I've very often had to be more creative in the moment that any type technique or drill would have taught me.

I think it really comes down to the martial artist and the way they approach their own training. If you have ever read Bruce's notes, he often as these lists that are for the martial artist to consider. He would write down what he would like to go over and see what those reactions would be.

[lance]

There are many striking skill that exist in boxing, MT, TKD that doesn't exist in TCMA.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Not really , the TCMA in general is divided into the north and south , internal & external , hard and soft . And plus there are over 1000 different different styles and systems of kung fu . Boxing , you can only punch , but can ' t kick or use elbows , also you can ' t defend and attack simultaneously like kung fu can . You need to bob and weave if your opponent throws punches of different types at you . You have the right and left lead punch , shovel hooks , hooks , uppercuts .
Muay Thai - You can use the same punches like in boxing and you can use elbows , knees and kicks of any type . TKD - Since it ' s northern style of kung fu influence , mostly kicks , high spinning kicks and high kicks . Rarely using hands to fight . They open up the opponents defense with their hands and move in offensively with their kicks . TKD also uses chops and palm and hand strikes like northen style kung fu does .

__________________________________________________ _______________

If we compare the Chinese striking art to the Chinese throwing art, old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major throws. The number of minor throws are as many as the number of hair on a cow's body." If the Chinese throwing art can cover all throws, there is no reason that the Chinese striking art can not cover all striks. After all, the number of punch and kick are much less than the number of the throws.

Even if ancient Chinese understood that no one will be able to master all throws in his life time. people still spent their effort to make the Chinese throwing art "complete". It just seems to me that the ancient Chinese didn't do a good job for the "completeness" of the Chinese striking art. Instead of creating a comple TCMA striking system, our ancestors just created too many styles.

__________________________________________________ _______________

If you can ' t master all the throws in chinese arts then , why not just master the throws that ' s best for you . Many times it all depends on your opponent if he ' s bigger than you or stronger than you . If you find that your opponent is too strong for throwing . Then you might as well strike the opponent instead . But if you find that the opponent is light then why not throw . When you face your opponent you going be making contact with the opponent anyway , so it all depends . You either going strike or throw the opponent .

YouknowWho , you don ' t need to condemn the TCMA , you just pick the throwing moves that you like , the samething with the striking arts .

__________________________________________________ _______________

If we don't think about "my style does this and your style does that" instead of "how many ways that we can use our punches and kicks", the Chinese striking art may be able to complete oneday.

When you train your throwing skill, you don't care whether a throw comes from SC, Judo, or wrestling. Why do you always have "style" in mind when you train your striking art?

What's your opinion on this?

__________________________________________________ _______________

YouKnowWho , For one thing , if we did ' nt take a look at a style of martial arts .
Then we would ' nt know a **** thing about the technique a style does have or
don ' t have right ? But you do have options , why not just take the techniques that you like and throw away the techniques that you don ' t like . and it becomes part of your own personal system . In kung fu you have the forms and the applications right ? Why not just experiment with the applications find out what really is useful for you and reject what is useless to you . You said , that you
don ' t like styles , so just take the applications that you like . You can use the same concept with the other martiaL arts . Because , the techniques alone evolve from a style right ? This is just my reply to your topic posts .

[YouKnowWho]

if we did ' nt take a look at a style of martial arts .
Then we would ' nt know a **** thing about the technique a style does have or
don ' t have right ?
You are right. Without studying

- Taiji, you won't know it doesn't have roundhouse kick.
- longfist, you won't know it doesn't have flying knee.
- WC, you won't know it doesn't have spin hook kick.
- ...

If we look at kicks as: front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ... the word "style" won't mean much.

[ShaolinDan]

- longfist, you won't know it doesn't have flying knee.


My longfist has the flying knee. :)

[YouKnowWho]

My longfist has the flying knee. :)

I know someone will say that soon or later. I won't be surprise that some Taiji guy will also say that Taiji has roundhouse kick too. :D

Does WC have spin hook kick? Not from the WC style that I have learned and that's for sure.

[Taixuquan99]

You have to know how much is the same to know what is different.

It's fine to like the subtle style issues, but it seems like you know it better as you know what is common to fighting better.

[Fa Xing]

I know someone will say that soon or later. I won't be surprise that some Taiji guy will also say that Taiji has roundhouse kick too. :D

It does :D