Kicking Form

[YouKnowWho]

If you train your kicking combos such as:

- front kick, roundhouse kick,
- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- side kick, turn back kick,
- inside crescent kick, turn hook kick,
- ...

What style are you training? Should you have those kicking skill no matter what style that you train? Should those kicking skill have no "style boundary" at all?

If you just link all those kicks in a sequence, you will have a kicking form as,

"front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, turn back kick, inside crescent kick, turn hook kick".

This new kicking form can be one extra form for whatever your original system may be. There should be no conflict with your original style at all. If you add this into your

- Taiji system, you can call it Taiji kicking form.
- XingYi system, you can call it XingYi kicking form.
- Bagua system, you can call it Bagua kicking form.
- ...

This way, the word "style" will have little meaning. What if you also add a throwing form (form contains all throws) and locking form (form contain all locks) into your Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, ... system? What will happen to the future generation for the TCMA if we take this approach?

[SPJ]

if you are yin style ba gua, it incorporated luo han shou (shaolin style)

there are a lot shaolin kick or leg methods.

if you are cheng ting hua ba gua, you have a lot of throws from shuai jiao.

if you are Sha/Jiang or Liang style, you have a lot of tan tui kicks.

personally, I like mantis kicks

there is a set of 7 kicks in a row. it is called 7 plum flowers or mei hua qi duo.

--

kick and kick away, low mid turn/spin rear whatever you like in a combo.

--

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwRgn8-5Rkk

some combo kicks from mantis.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXtXr0E7SU&feature=related

donnie yen kicking combo.

:)

[mickey]

Greetings YouKnowWho and SPJ

There are lots of kicks one can do. The problem is that the kung fu of Chinese style kicking is dying out. Who trains their toes now days? In relation to the development of the toes, I posted up a link to training the toes a few years ago under the title Tan Tui Related Material. There was no discussion or feedback like, "We train our toes in a different manner" The saying "The hands are like two doors.." falls upon deaf ears; instead, we observe people initiate combat with a rear leg high kick, only to get stomped into the ground. The theory of kicking and the training methods are more important than the kicks themselves (which isn't to say kicks are unimportant) and it is those two things that are dying out first.

mickey

[RWilson]

Kicks should be trained with a partner during some kind of sparring. If alone kicks should be trained against a bag. Not a form. Throws can only be trained with a partner otherwise you will never learn them properly. A throwing form is no different than a form for forms sake. You are better off doing conditioning to make yourself stronger for partner throwing. Why does tcma make a form out of everything?


Of course if you are not doing martial arts to actually gain skill than do the kick and throw form. If you are just doing martial arts for exercise than do the kick form.

[YouKnowWho]

Why does tcma make a form out of everything?

It's only for "teaching" and learning "purpose". It's like a text book. If a kicking form contains 20 moves, you can link it anyway you want as long as the sequence makes logical sense. It's a challeng task to create a 20 moves kicking form that one kick can flow into another kick smoothly. It's much easier to "remember" a form that contains 20 kicks than 20 complete different kicks in random order.

In another thread, WC guys was talking about not enough throwing and locking in the system. If we have "universal" kicking form, locking form, and throwing form for every system, the individual style can concentrate on the uniqueness of the punching only. This way all TCMA systems can be qualified as "complete".

When we talk about punching,

- person A may say that he likes to use "snake engine" for that punch.
- Person B may say that he likes to use "core engine" for that punch.
- Person C may say that he likes to rotate his Dantien clockwise for that punch.
- ...

The moment that we start to talk about roundhouse kick, arm bar, single leg, those discussion about "different engines" and "internal power" suddently quite down. It just seems to me that style are more common in those area of kicking, locking, and throwing. So why can't we have "universal" kicking form, "universal" locking form, and "universal" throwing form for all the TCMA styles on this planet?

The new Yang Taiji system will now contain:

- 108 moves long Taiji form.
- 20 move kicking form.
- 40 moves locking form.
- 80 moves throwing form?

X + A + B + C > X

Is this a good idea?

[Jimbo]

Of course, it's usually most beneficial to train kicks with partners or with pads and heavy bags. But there's nothing wrong with training them for form by air kicking, too, just not overdoing it. Kicking air helps to develop the ability to recover if your kick misses, and to develop the basic habit of fast retraction (if your kicking style retracts kicks). You can do that by yourself, without any equipment, and for free. Because you don't always have partners or training equipment at hand. Some people seem to have an extreme, black and white, either/or approach, as if training kicks to develop proper form -- outside of all the other work that goes into them -- is somehow harmful to being a MAist. You can develop form kicking pads, bags and drilling, but air kicking involves different muscles and works your balance in a different way. Nothing wrong with all-around development.

As for developing a specific long form for it, for myself personally, I don't think it's really necessary, other than maybe two-or-three-kick combos of your own. You develop your own way of using them, anyway. My preference now is not to overkick, but to use them in conjunction with other skills. But if someone wants to develop their own form, I suppose it could help for coordination purposes.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Why does tcma make a form out of everything?

Throwing a kick in the air doing basics or while shadow boxing is not a form, it is a way to consistently train the break down and steps of a kick so when they throw it on a bag, pads, or sparring they know how to do it. Which, ironically enough, is something the sport fighting crowd could take advice from considering some of the attrocious kicks I have seen them throw. Throwing a kick on a bag or pads without correct form and technique is still throwing a shh***itty kick, period.

I train my students with kicks in three aspects:

1. Basics- This is where the student is taught the proper mechanics of a kick, in line, with instructions on stance posture, chambering and re-chambering, where the kick lands, what part of the foot or shin they are kicking with, ect.

2. Mitt Work/Bag- The student takes what they learned from basics and applies it to hitting a solid object.

3. Sparring-The student takes what they learned and applies it to trying to kick a moving object that is trying to hit/kick them back. This is truly where distance and timing is learned.

Here are some vids of kicks from my gym:

Snapping Roundhouse:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvmOSBYTLwM

Power Roundhouse:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJTSn1c6LMI&feature=related

Punches/Kicks:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fyAukizmKU

[RWilson]

Throwing a kick in the air doing basics or while shadow boxing is not a form, it is a way to consistently train the break down and steps of a kick so when they throw it on a bag, pads, or sparring they know how to do it. Which, ironically enough, is something the sport fighting crowd could take advice from considering some of the attrocious kicks I have seen them throw. Throwing a kick on a bag or pads without correct form and technique is still throwing a shh***itty kick, period.

I train my students with kicks in three aspects:

1. Basics- This is where the student is taught the proper mechanics of a kick, in line, with instructions on stance posture, chambering and re-chambering, where the kick lands, what part of the foot or shin they are kicking with, ect.

2. Mitt Work/Bag- The student takes what they learned from basics and applies it to hitting a solid object.

3. Sparring-The student takes what they learned and applies it to trying to kick a moving object that is trying to hit/kick them back. This is truly where distance and timing is learned.

Here are some vids of kicks from my gym:

Snapping Roundhouse:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvmOSBYTLwM

Power Roundhouse:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJTSn1c6LMI&feature=related

Punches/Kicks:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fyAukizmKU


I agree 100% but the OP did not say shadow boxing. He said link the kicks into a specific order(form) and do them. Then he said make up different drills which sounds like shadow boxing but is still forms. Shadow boxing is completely random and not the same as a form at all.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I agree 100% but the OP did not say shadow boxing. He said link the kicks into a specific order(form) and do them. Then he said make up different drills which sounds like shadow boxing but is still forms. Shadow boxing is completely random and not the same as a form at all.

Gotcha man, thanks for the clarification. If someone is doing forms or kick sequences only they may have pretty kicks but not much of anything else. In Pai Lum we have kick sequences which combine all kicks such as Front Thrust, Side Thrust, Roundhouse, Crescents, Hook, Donkey, ect. And these are good for teaching mechanics and form, but still there has to be a solid target to hit.

Just like in boxing, boxers may do shadow boxing but still need to hit bags and do mitt work. Same principle applies for kicks.

[wenshu]

Neither shadow boxing nor pad work is 100% random. Combinations are prearranged patterns of movement.

[Lucas]

learn the kick usually in line drills. use the kick on pads/bags. combine your kicks with free play (shadow boxing) so to work on combinations and set ups, ie: become comfortable throwing those combinations and working with the transitions to become efficient and powerful. use those kicks in sparring. you may want to use kicks to set up punches, such as; left head kick, right leg kick, right straight punch, left hook, etc.

if you are alone and want to practice kicks, you can work on the heavy bag, you can isolate a kick and drill it repeatedly. imo if you were to use a 'kick form' the best benefit you can gain from that is a repeated use of kicking transitions, from one kick to another. this approach is not too far different from shadow boxing in the sense that you are connecting your techniques, the main difference though is that you are working over and over on the exact same combo, working that combination to a level of perfection. but then this is usually done int he form of a very small form, such as just a simple combo; low right leg kick, front left kick, right head kick, over, and over and over. then when you try this in sparring after doing this small form on a bag and in the air, you will have explosiveness and precision, since you have done that combo so many times before. by doing this method you will improve that combo in a way you never could if you did not repeatedly do this combo ten thousand times.

combine every kick in one long form? i dont think it is necessary to do that though. however small personal 'form combos' i think are a good benefit for punches or kicks.

a lot of people who do cma will refer to isolated combos as forms. but its the exact same thing.

[Lucas]

Neither shadow boxing nor pad work is 100% random. Combinations are prearranged patterns of movement.

precisely so holmes :p

[ginosifu]

If you train your kicking combos such as:

- front kick, roundhouse kick,
- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- side kick, turn back kick,
- inside crescent kick, turn hook kick,
- ...

What style are you training? Should you have those kicking skill no matter what style that you train? Should those kicking skill have no "style boundary" at all?

If you just link all those kicks in a sequence, you will have a kicking form as,

"front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, turn back kick, inside crescent kick, turn hook kick".

This new kicking form can be one extra form for whatever your original system may be. There should be no conflict with your original style at all. If you add this into your

- Taiji system, you can call it Taiji kicking form.
- XingYi system, you can call it XingYi kicking form.
- Bagua system, you can call it Bagua kicking form.
- ...

This way, the word "style" will have little meaning. What if you also add a throwing form (form contains all throws) and locking form (form contain all locks) into your Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, ... system? What will happen to the future generation for the TCMA if we take this approach?


YouKnowWho:

One problem with this is that "Style" is what separates Chinese from Korean, Japanese from Russian, Tibetian from Indian etc etc.

Each style has a different approach or entering strategy, uses a different theory and when and how to apply them.

Now a Round Kick (Round House) is the same for all styles however, each style may use a different type of energy:

Korean Styles mainly pivot off the ball of their supporting foot and use more waist twist and snapping energy.

Chinese Styles mainly pivot off the heel of the supporting foot and use more kinetic or body power.

Some style may favor a straight forward approach where other styles may favor angles etc.

If there was no style..... then we would all be doing the "World Martial Art" style and everyone would be the same we would all be robots with no form of self expression or expansion.

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Often times I hear people make statements like Muay Thai style kicks are the only powerful and useful kicks and TMA such as Kung Fu, Karate, and Taekwondo are slappy, useless kicks with no power.

All of those TMA I listed can and do enable a person to develop powerful kicks when trained right. Most of them have a large repitoire of kicks that are both powerful and unorthodox. So there are a few schools of thought on this:

1. Just because you trained at a crappy McDojo does not equal all TMA styles have ****ty kicks. And to those always bagging on Taekwondo, some of the most powerful amazing kicks I have been hit with came from TKD players.

2. This is not a bust on MMA, but there are other styles to get your kicks from besides Muay Thai. This takes nothing away from MT, it is an awesome style and produces great fighters. But to hear some of the nut riders constantly bag on TMA who have never felt what a good practioner can do with these kicks gets nauseating to say the least.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know 3 "types" of kicks:
Karate
TKD and MT ( kyokushin is basically a combo of karate and MT).
They all serve their purpose, the purpose they were designed for:
Karate is a "punching" system so the kicks work in "that range".
TKD is a kicking system, originally with lots of lead leg kicks and as such, the kicks work in that way.
MT's kicks are a bit different as they have both striking and pushing kicks but to keep the comparison going let's look at the bread n butter kick, the round kick.
Since MT is not a primarly kicking art, it tends to work closer, hence the typical TKD round kick is not ideal, but since MT also tends to work the kicks differently than Karate, the karate kick is also not ideal ( MT fighters tend to throw it ****her away).
The MT kick is perfect for what it is used for.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't believe in form training but drills training. The form that I suggest is only for "teaching" and "learning". It's not suggested for "training".

You cannot connect kicks in any random order. When your body rotate into one direction, it's hard to rotate into the opposite direction in fast speed. The direction of your body rotation will restrict what kick will be a logical connection after a certain kick.


Each style has a different approach or entering strategy, ... each style may use a different type of energy ... "World Martial Art" style ...
We don't have to include "entering strategy" in the form. The power generation may be different but if method A is better than method B, why not just use method A?

I don't see anything wrong with the "World Martial Art" attitude.

If your come from a grappling background, you want to learn some striking skill, you may not care which striking style that you pick up as long as it can be integrated into your grappling style smoothly.

If you come from a striking background, do you really care whether you choice SC, Judo, or wrestling to meet your need?

[Dragonzbane76]

If you come from a striking background, do you really care whether you choice SC, Judo, or wrestling to meet your need?

each of the listed bring a flavor to the table in concepts towards grappling. each use a differing entering strategy and have different points of domination control. as for my answer, learn them all. absorb retain and expand. :)

[SPJ]

we may always place a kick in a combo

or several back to back

but as pointed out

the kick to end is easier to set up

but several kicks are difficult to pull

due to positioning and rebalancing etc

etc

:)

[brothernumber9]

IMO CMA, particularly "southern" CMA, focus on side kick more than other disciplines of regions like Thailand, Korea, and Japan. This is just my own opinion and observation. The form on the other hand is debatable, at least again, in my own opinion. There are different ideals and focuses on the way one may execute or want to execute a side kick. Ex: Knife edge, or heel. One may argue that for a heel kick, a player may want to keep thier knee in line with the trajectory of the strike in a straight line as possible, to maximize force directly into the heel, like a push/piston. And one may argue that for a knife-edge-like sidekick, the player may want to keep their knee at or above level of the foot in line with the the trajectory, so that weight can be either forced straight or downward or somewhere inbetween. What say you in regards to side kick, what styles/regions may seem to use them more, and the form of such? is there a right and wrong? and what are the don'ts?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60959

Check this thread out, an older one I started that goes very in detail about the sidekick.

[SPJ]

low leg methods are easier to pull off

such as

1. shaolin sweeping leg sao tui, several back to back

2. mantis shovel leg or hook/sweep the opponent's lead leg ankle area.

3. ba ji low heel or front sore kick. you advance your hand/fist and your foot at the same time. not alone.

etc etc.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

What would you guys think if you trained kicks like a weight lifting work out. What I mean so many reps and sets a example 10x3 each side for each kick. A front kick 10 times take a 30sec to 1 minute rest 10 more for 3 sets then switch sides after front kicks are done switch to round kick and repeat and then move through your series of kicks? Then you have the endurance and strength built up then you apply and work on timing through sparring.

That's exactly what I like to do in my daily training. I just feel that kick in the thin air just don't give me satisfaction. Also I feel that my hip joint and knee joint are pulled and start to make some noise when I kick in the thin air. Today I only train my kicks on heavy bag. But I like to train 2 kicks combo instead. It's a bit more fun than solo kick. Here are my favor 2 kicks combo:

- front kick, front kick (different legs),
- front kick, roundhouse kick (different legs),
- side kick, turn back kick (different legs),
- side kick, turn hook kick (different legs),
- roundhouse kick, hook kick (same leg),
- ...

Some combo just hard to work on the heavy bag because a human being can dodge a kick so your kick can go over his head but the heavy bag will stop your 1st kick such as:

- hook kick, roundhouse kick (same leg),
- hook kick, roundhouse kick (different legs)

May be we can all share some of our favor kicking combo here.

[SPJ]

1. Yes. We may use a heavy bag or poles covered with cushions for kicking mid and high.

2. I also like to use something like a lower "leg" of a dummie

to practice shovel (chan) or hook for the opponent's lower leg near ankle.

3. to practice low heel or low front sole/toes kicks on a flour bag or bean bag tied to a lower leg of a stool or dummie.

4. even with no bags or dummie around

We may practice by hitting or slapping our own hand stretching forward.

We swing our leg high to the left or right to slap our own hand etc etc.

It is called bai lian or swinging lotus.


etc etc

:)

[Jimbo]

These have been some of my favorite kick combos:

Low cross kick/front kick (different legs).

Front kick/low cross kick (different legs).

Front kick/roundhouse kick (different legs).

Low fake front kick/high roundhouse kick (same leg).

Roundhouse kick/spinning hook kick {or spin back kick} (different legs).

Outside crescent kick/low roundhouse kick (different legs).

Leg hook/low side kick (same leg).

Hook kick/roundhouse kick (same leg).

Roundhouse kick/high hook kick (same leg).


IMO, some kicks are better practiced against pads or some other lighter target than a heavy bag, such as hook kick, crescent kicks, etc. Roundhouse can be done on both heavy bags and pads. Of course, side/back kicks are better on heavy bags or air shields. For low kicks like low side or cross kicks, you simply lower the heavy bag's hanging height so you can kick near the bottom part of it at knee/shin level.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, some kicks are better practiced against pads or some other lighter target than a heavy bag, such as hook kick, crescent kicks, etc.
I always have concern that if my kick can't work on heavy bag then how do I know that it will work on a life human body? What if my "hook kick" didn't kick high enough and landed on my opponent's chest?

I love hook kick (I have never liked crescent kick) but I just don't have much confidence on that kick for the reason that I have just stated.


For low kicks like low side or cross kicks, you simply lower the heavy bag so you can kick near the bottom part of it at knee/shin level.

I like to train all my low kicks on a small tree. It's just so much like a human leg.

[Jimbo]

I always have concern that if my kick can't work on heavy bag then how do I know that it will work on a life human body? What if my "hook kick" didn't kick high enough and landed on my opponent's chest?



I like to train all my low kicks on a small tree. It's just so much like a human leg.

My hook kick (well, before my injury, anyway) tended to come slightly downwards to my opponent's head, and I did it with a 'snappy' action (for R. leg, the leg extends to 10:00, then 'snaps' bent to 2:00 or 3:00, using the heel). I would come from outside his shoulder (same as my outside crescent). I guess I was fortunate that it never unintentionally struck my opponent's torso, though I have struck opponents' arms with it. I've always considered hook kick (and crescent kick) as sparring kicks and not 'combat' or self-defense kicks, though others may have different thoughts.

Kicking small trees is good for low kicks, but I prefer heavy bag because: If you hang it low, it still moves, so it's easier to practice following one low kick with another. Something like a Thai bag would be perfect. Also, for my low side kick, I tend to use the outside edge of the heel, and it's safer to do that on the hard part of the heavy bag near the bottom, than against a tree. Though a cross kick would be perfect against a tree.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a small kicking clip to share. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47SSY9HilPU

[GETHIN]

The Sanfeng sect in Wudang use 36 kicks (36 Tuifa). Split into three groups of varying difficulties :

Dantui

1, zhengti 2, lihe 3, waibai,
4, xieti 5, woxintui 6,poxintui
7, poxin, 8, caiui, 9, xiaoqiao
10, tonglei 11, tantui, 12, biantui
13, cetongtui 14, fantui 15, zhuanshentongleitui
16, xiapitui

Shuangtui. :

17, saotangtui 18, poxitonglei 19, woxintonglei
20, tongleiianhuan 21, biantuilianhuan 22, qiansaohoufan
23, lihefantui 24, xiaobianfantui 25, guamianzhuanshentonglei
26, gaodibiantui 27 qiankunttonglai

Tengkongtui :

28, erqijiao 29, duozijiao 30, xuangontui
31, Yuebutonglei 32, tengkongwaibalian 33, tengkongceti,
34, xuanfengtai 35, jiandaotui 36, housaoxuanfeng

We would practice most of these kicks daily in lines, but despite such a large collection of kicks there was no evident form or pattern which involved more than five or six kicks. Eventually I started to try and put twelve of these together into a sort of practice routine... roundhouse followed by a front snap, followed by a low sweep etc. At first it would take me around 14 seconds, but rewarding when I saw the times decrease to under 9 seconds.

[YouKnowWho]

17, saotangtui ...

What's your opinion on Saotangtui?

I have always feel that the 360 degree floor sweep is not very useful in combat. If you want to sweep your opponent, you don't need to drop that low. When you sweep your opponent's leg, you also need to pull his shoulder back. The shoulder pulling part is missing in Saotangtui.

[GETHIN]

I think that low sweeps are too risky - great in the movies, but when in the movies do you see the opponent trap or stamp on the leg ?. It's a good exercise though - Like high kicks, practicing ten in succession must be good for stamina, flexibility and strength.
I saw guys in Wudang with the most amazing kicks and 'light-weight kung fu - but they live in the mountains - running up and down slopes and training eight hours a day for several years works wonders with kicks LOL !!!.

[YouKnowWho]

It's a good exercise though ...

I agree! In my longfist class, sweep at ankle, front toe kick, front heel kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, swing leg over head, jumping kick, double jumping crescent kick, tornado kick, ground sweep, ... were always done in the beginning of the class.

[GETHIN]

Yep...a good way to get warm !. I am working on some translations of some old Fujian Crane texts at the moment - a bit slow I'm afraid, but I know that one of these deals with kicks and kick counter-attacks.
The Fujian Crane I study always tells us never to kick higher than the waist... avoiding entrapment.
But in one text about kicking there's an interesting line "if you choose to kick high, use your hands first". I interpret this as meaning to deceive your opponent ... I will look for some kick drills in these and let you know if I find any ! :)