Choy Lee Fut VS Pak Mei

[Frenchie]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if someone could help me to find a true and traditional Kung Fu school in NY? I have visited a bunch of them and i have seen so many flashy and crowed schools, where students were not corrected or handled properly. I have now narrowed down my choices to Choy Lee Fut school in Brooklyn or the Pak Mei school in NYC (Master Kwong Man Fong)

Do you have any advices or feedback from one or the other styles/ schools?

Thank you so much

[Golden Arms]

Given where you are, CLF would be my call if I had to select between those two.

[Frenchie]

Hi Golden Arms,

Thanks for your response. I used to practice Kung Fu Wutao created by HOANG Nam in 1962 and i am looking for a similar style. Do you think CLF is the best option then? Have you ever had any feedback about the Pak Mei school in NY?
Please let me know,

Thank you

[bawang]

visit both schools and experience it first. neither style is "better"

[Lebaufist]

He'll probably do both given enough time.

[Frost]

lol i thought this was going to be a fight video thread :)

both are great styles to train in, go visit both schools and see what fits best with you thats all any of us can do training is a personal thing

[XinKuzi]

What CLF school you talking about? I don't recall where this guy's at, but I'd bet he's a very good teacher:

http://choyleefut-hungsing.blogspot.com/

[EarthDragon]

LOL he sped up his video to make him look faster.... touch of hollywood there

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL he sped up his video to make him look faster.... touch of hollywood there

:confused: where did he speed it up?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was just gonna ask the same thing ??
The form is NOT sped up, you can tell by his body AND the audience.
The mitt and bagwork is not sped up either.

[hskwarrior]

where did he speed it up?

haha I was thinking the same thing. then realize maybe he never saw anything that fast before haha

[CLFNole]

You can always tell when videos are sped up by looking at the background people and objects. That is not the case here.

[Indrafist]

Good CLF is amongst the best TCMA there is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_DuRzmgGc

[Ray Pina]

... based on that form?

[sanjuro_ronin]

... based on that form?

Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.

[hskwarrior]

Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.

you can't speak to a wall. Forms just go right over his head.

[Ben Gash]

While it is a nice form, I'm sure that Ray means that it can't be viewed in isolation from this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xnxkvhjlnc and deemed to be the best there is.

[Indrafist]

If the issue is 'fighting' whatever that means, then as has been said here a gazillion times before: people, not styles, fight. That said, and I'm not a CLF practitioner, CLF is IMHO one of the best styles in all of TCMA. What an individual does with what it has to offer, is down to them... the 'style' doesn't 'fight'. I can see a huge amount of stuff in it, massive potential. If someone can't see that (what it has to offer) then that's every bit as personally valid as me seeing what is really good (in the style). It's all down to people, styles aren't mass-production lines, even some instructors try to make them that way. Re the individual practitioners in the forms shown earlier, there's plenty to see that suggests great skill, motion and structure. What they do with that is, down to them, but it is there.

[doug maverick]

What CLF school you talking about? I don't recall where this guy's at, but I'd bet he's a very good teacher:

http://choyleefut-hungsing.blogspot.com/

it could be undercranked(sped up) slightly, pretty much any fightscene/action scene in a movie is sped up, you wouldnt know the difference if its done right....not saying it is or it isnt. just saying if it was done right you wouldnt know.

[Ray Pina]

The direction the topic has taken is one of people saying one style is better than another. It raises my curiosity because it's already been determined that none of these styles are producing competitive level fighters.... so now we're basing a styles effectiveness on form? Just want to be clear on what data is being weighed to make the assessment.

Personally, if I'm going strictly on form I prefer Hsing-I and Taiji for mechanics. Ba Gua for position/strategy. The forms are more simple but stick to important fundamentals.

But again, personally, my opinion, forms are a way to string out students and dangle a carrot over their head to keep them paying and fill class time when a teacher hasn't learned how to train a fighter. And the process gets handed down and repeated to new students.

[hskwarrior]

If the issue is 'fighting' whatever that means, then as has been said here a gazillion times before: people, not styles, fight. That said, and I'm not a CLF practitioner, CLF is IMHO one of the best styles in all of TCMA. What an individual does with what it has to offer, is down to them..

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China's revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work. Still, like you mentioned, its the individual who makes the style work for him. regardless of any effectiveness CLF has to offer, the style is only as good as the fighter using it.

[Ray Pina]

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT.

Then where are all of it's fighters?

[Ben Gash]

CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.

[hskwarrior]

The direction the topic has taken is one of people saying one style is better than another. It raises my curiosity because it's already been determined that none of these styles are producing competitive level fighters

YOU are the only one talking about "BETTER THAN THIS OR THAT". The direction it was ACTUALLY going was did the creator of the video speed it up to make him look faster.


Personally, if I'm going strictly on form I prefer Hsing-I and Taiji for mechanics. Ba Gua for position/strategy. The forms are more simple but stick to important fundamentals.

Choy Lee Fut HAS this....ALL of it..... plus more


But again, personally, my opinion, forms are a way to string out students and dangle a carrot over their head to keep them paying and fill class time when a teacher hasn't learned how to train a fighter. And the process gets handed down and repeated to new students.
__________________

Yeah yeah yeah....we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here's a secret.....ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.

[Ray Pina]

CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

[Jimbo]

When were people saying that a style's (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form? And who said all of CLF is only forms?

These are the very same types of comments that many 'modern' MAists accuse TCMAists of always making (which may be true; only it actually goes both ways). It's beyond played out. It's as if nobody can ask, discuss or share anything without someone inserting some type of put-down. And no, it's not a constructive argument.

I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who'd posted a question that if you listen too much to some people's comments on these forums, you'll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That's very true.

To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.

[Ray Pina]

Yeah yeah yeah....we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here's a secret.....ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.

You get very defensive.

I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Here's a secret: those death matches never happened and there's nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.

There are statements being made and I'm simply asking for substance. You said "CLF was created to FIGHT"...you put the emphasis on fight.

TKD wins every TKD tournament. TCMA won the True2Form..... if CLF was created to fight, and everyone is training traditionally, wouldn't you expect to see SOME CLF fighters competing and winning open international tournaments? Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

Boxing was made to fight. There are thousands and thousands of ranked boxers. Probably millions throughout the ages.

I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don't talk shiznit.

[Golden Arms]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

Ray,

San Shou, at least out here, is open to anyone that wishes to fight within those rules. The basic rules are pretty much: Full contact kickboxing rules + throws are allowed if done within 3-5 seconds of the clinch. In San Shou I have fought Shooto, Muay Thai, Pancration, Kickboxing, Kung Fu, TKD, Boxing, and Karate guys, as well as a few guys that primarily did Greco Roman. There are now some school here that train people in San Shou itself, but on this coast at least, it has been open to all styles that want in for at least 10 years.

[Ben Gash]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

That wasn't the question you asked, now was it? You asked where the Choy Li Fut fighters were, I pointed to their participation in legitimate full contact events, you tried to change the argument :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Here's a secret: those death matches never happened and there's nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.


The styrofoam as you saw it is NOT a CLF invention and can be traced back to the Teacher. Bak Pei Sifu uses that too here in SF. However, I don't use that. But i understand why they do. And, sure they (DEATH MATCHES) didn't happen, just because you said so. :rolleyes: LOL


I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Yes, We all know this. unfortunately.


There are statements being made and I'm simply asking for substance. You said "CLF was created to FIGHT"...you put the emphasis on fight.

I've Shown you CLF in the ring. Its your own fault you can't see it. :rolleyes:
whether it was up to YOUR individual liking DOESN'T matter. they were in the ring and FIGHTING. they weren't in the ring doing TRU2FORM. :rolleyes:

Here is a link of CLF FIGHTS coming up this week in HONG KONG: http://www.u23p.com/datadetail.php?key=12290 DOesn't look like TRU2FORM to me :rolleyes:

http://www.u23p.com/content/A3-Poster-v_3.jpg


Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

How did we go from CLF to boxing again? :confused:
But, my sifu has trained BOXERS who used some CLF techniques in the ring, but at the moment i forget his name.


I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don't talk shiznit

Thanks. I don't talk ****. half of what i say to you is tongue in cheek cause i want you to lighten up. We're here to fraternize as Martial Artists, you seem to be here in a competitive nature but these are just words on a forum. relax a bit bro. we all have passion for what we do. good thing is we all don't do the same thing or it would be really boring around here.

peace :D

[Ray Pina]

When were people saying that a style's (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form?

These comments were made:

Good CLF is amongst the best TCMA there is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_DuRzmgGc


Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.


Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China's revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work.


Choy Lee Fut HAS this....ALL of it..... plus more


... after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video. :confused:

If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI






I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who'd posted a question that if you listen too much to some people's comments on these forums, you'll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That's very true.
So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?

I would say those people aren't really interested in learning martial arts.

I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can't begin until one is truthful with themself.



To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.

Very true.

But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual's preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA's results are not good.

Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path.... again, that's for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond.... which is ironic, because that's a matter of pressure. Which you don't get from form and non resistance training.

[hskwarrior]

Below is a newspaper article of a Challenge Match with a Russian Boxer vs a Choy Lee Fut master. But i guess that never happened either huh?

HERE IS A VIDEO of the person in the article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rANnZC3WIQ


http://plumblossom.net/PhotoAlbum/NewsClip/Boxing.jpg

Another story of CLF vs A boxer in the early 1900's:

"Lau Chung was a well-known Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut practitioner teaching in Hong Kong. During this period, a foreign military officer by the name of Norris offered a cash prize to any Chinese boxer who could defeat him in a match. Defeating many of the local Chinese boxers made Norris boastful and arrogant. Lau Chung took on the challenge and ended the fight by breaking Norris’s ribs with an elbow strike. As the fight was fought under gloved western boxing rules, the elbow strike that Lau Chung had executed was considered an illegal technique. From the hospital Norris ordered Lau Chung’s capture for his offense. As the foreign military leaders would no doubt do him great harm for his actions, Lau Chung decided to leave Hong Kong for Macau. As the incident began to cool down, Lau Chung relocated to Canton. While believing he was safe, Lau Chung was unexpectedly assassinated by a fellow Choy Lay Fut practitioner hired by those associated with Norris in Hong Kong."

[Ray Pina]

I stand corrected on San Shou.



As for the WORLD:rolleyes: CLF championships.... that posters says more than you can apparently tell. Perhaps the winner will claim being a world champion and sell tons of videos.

Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.

It's happened. You won..... I admit. Kung Fu is awesome and probably the best way to spend your time and money to develop fighting skill. You all are probably very dangerous individuals and the real international professional fighting world is very lucky that you all sit it out on the sidelines.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?






Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.

[hskwarrior]

Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.


This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES....thats your insecurity talking. you said CLF people don't fight....i showed you even back then we were kicking ass.

you're hella funny, people post something and instead of saying "oh, cool...." you start thumping your chest. HAHA.....

[goju]

Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.

God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

[hskwarrior]

God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

He is STUCK in a certain mode and can't get out of it hahaah. maybe he suffers from some COMPETITIVE & REPETITIVE syndrome? :confused:

I'm not mad at him. haha.... its fun to see him raise his head when you mention any type of fighting....

[CLFNole]

Last I checked the orignial poster just wanted opinions on which school to attend. :eek:

[hskwarrior]

Here is some other older Choy Lee Fut fights.....

At 2:30 The blond Mexican guy was a boxer and trained under a big name trainer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJVBnV6eGiw&feature=fvsr

[RWilson]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.

It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.

San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An "all round" fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.


Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history...accept he was the guy who got knocked down.

[Ray Pina]

This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES.

................

many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.

It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.

San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An "all round" fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.


Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history...accept he was the guy who got knocked down.

I respect San Shou completely. I've fought in it. And against a Thai Boxer... so I know it attracts non TCMAers.

My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.

His fighters aren't training with the Lama Pi spiked wrists guards you see in his old pictures. They're not juggling a pitch fork in a form as Ross did.... they're training Judo throws, BJJ/wrestling grappling and Thai Boxing.

[hskwarrior]

................

EXACTLY my point. LOL.....

"i'm a martial GOD" gets the same "..............................."


My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.

And Choy Lee Fut will never STOP doing forms either. get over it.

[wenshu]

It wouldn't be an official KFM forum thread without devolving into an inveterate display of black and white thinking.

Frenchie;

I'm assuming you have little or no prior experience but since you've narrowed it down and don't seem particularly attached to one school stylistically speaking; if at all possible try and get some experience in with both schools and give it some time. You will naturally gravitate towards one. I wouldn't try and rush a decision since if you develop a particular dedication it will consume all your free time. There can also be a lot of cultural addenda (baggage) so it could be a good idea to get a taste for what each has to offer before you start truncating your social life.

Gong, ma, pu, xu, xie, shou, yan, shen fa, bu.

Assuming the school is any good one of the nice things about gong fu is that at its most basic everything is relatively interchangeable. Good fundamentals in one style translate into good fundamentals in another relatively easily. So if you decide to try out some Shuai Jiao after a year or two the transition will be smooth and you'll have something of an advantage over a rank beginner as far as ji ben gong is concerned.

If they don't offer any sort of free sparring for whatever reason, after you've built some decent work capacity and have a good grasp of a few core basics some supplemental training once a week in boxing or muay thai etc is a good way to add some seasoning.

(edit: sorry, I didn't see your post about your previous experience.)

WHo am I kidding; all gong fu = wing chun and it sucks and I am the firstest mostest beautifullest person to point this out when I am not too busy winning gold medals wrestling great white sharks.

[Jimbo]

These comments were made:








... after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video. :confused:

If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI





So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?

I would say those people aren't really interested in learning martial arts.

I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can't begin until one is truthful with themself.



Very true.

But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual's preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA's results are not good.

Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path.... again, that's for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond.... which is ironic, because that's a matter of pressure. Which you don't get from form and non resistance training.

Ray, you do make some valid points. But I don't see anywhere in my post where I attacked you personally. In fact, I don't make personal attacks on these forums at all. That's not my thing. But if I did so, I would be very clear about it. I said that there are people who insert what amounts to put-downs whenever any type of question, etc., is posted. And yes, that could include some of your comments on CMA, i.e., CMA only fights in Tru2form or whatever that was. I kept it open because there are others who do the same or far worse. And yes, some people can be discouraged if it's a perspective beginner posting a question about a particular art(s) and all he/she gets is negative feedback.

I do believe it would be boring as hell if everyone always agreed all the time. But put-down-type comments are also boring. Everyone should express their opinions. Sometimes it's the WAY they're expressed that makes them constructive or not.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

And some of you ass***holes wonder why we never get new members posting on this forum??:rolleyes::D

[Ray Pina]

Ray, you do make some valid points. But I don't see anywhere in my post where I attacked you personally.

Sorry of my post came off as accusing you of such. That was not intended. And I admit, I took it too far with the San Shou.

Much respect for San Da, etc.

[Ray Pina]

And Choy Lee Fut will never STOP doing forms either. get over it.

I'm happy for you and Choy Lee Fut... apparently a match made in heaven.

[maxattck]

So they want to do forms, I have to ask ray, why do you care.

[hskwarrior]

I'm happy for you and Choy Lee Fut... apparently a match made in heaven.

Yup, Haterism runs through your veins. LOL...

[Frost]

Umm did I miss the posts where everyone said look at that form its really lovely so that must mean CLF is one of the best TCMA styles ……………I thought most people were looking at the video and saying nice set, oh and CLF is one of the better TCMA styles (before Ray went off on one), and basing this on the fact that CLF is one of those rare arts that actually competes full contact regularly across all its families and in several different countries, I know that’s what I’m basing it on. Most of the so called internal TCMA Ray likes so much (in the west at least) don’t regularly fight in Sanda or san shou, I thought Ray would have been applauding CLF for carrying the fighting banner. (note before arguments start I know a few lineages of tai chi compete in san shou, and some hsingi schools but the vast majority of schools and students in the west don’t compete using these systems). In fact CLF, whilst being one of the smaller TCMA styles (in terms of numbers of students) seems to dominate most of the full contact clips you can find from TCMA on the net, and they seem to also appear much more in proper international events and not just local interclub sparring.

[Ray Pina]

I am wrong. You all are right.

THOSE CLF practitioners in THOSE fighting videos looked competent.

[Ray Pina]

Yup, Haterism runs through your veins. LOL...

I just noticed your videos in your sig Sifu Frank: http://www.youtube.com/user/sifufrank?feature=mhee

Very impressive martial arts. If anyone should be upset it's you. Your dominance of cooperating students in slow motion is as good or better than any I've seen.

I'm reformed. I mean it. You will now see a completely different persona from me on this message board. Very cooperative. I didn't realize the level of skill I was dealing with.

My bad. Many apologies.

Keep me informed. I am full of love and anticipation to see any of your students next fights.

[Frost]

So what’s the problem? those are not the only clips, you can find lots on the net from the 70’s, 80’s 90’s and today from all over the place (austraila, Poland the US the UK etc) that’s the point its not just one club out there competing a lot of the CLF guys do, and do it effectively

Those CLF guys train the same as most CLF guys from what I can gather: forms, pad work, applications and sparring (I grant that the fighting orientated clubs do less forms and more person to person work, at least from what I have seen, but they still do forms)

[Ray Pina]

So what’s the problem? those are not the only clips, you can find lots on the net from the 70’s, 80’s 90’s and today from all over the place (austraila, Poland the US the UK etc) that’s the point its not just one club out there competing a lot of the CLF guys do, and do it effectively

Those CLF guys train the same as most CLF guys from what I can gather: forms, pad work, applications and sparring (I grant that the fighting orientated clubs do less forms and more person to person work, at least from what I have seen, but they still do forms)

No problem.

I'm thinking of taking up CLF myself now. I'm kind of digging the big, sweeping, wax on wax off like element strikes.... they don't really leave one too open for too long. Shame no one has really crossed over successfully to MMA with that. Maybe time. Give Sifu Fank's guys a couple more years.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It seems to me that the trend on this forum anymore is to bash CMA at all expense regardless of what it is and what proof exists that it is used as a combat art. To me this seems pointless but it is what it is.

I really don't understand why it is Kung Fu or even San Shou is looked down upon and not given dues even when proven that these fighters are fighting not only other Kung Fu practioners but other styles as well. I don't ever see people bashing Muay Thai for only fighting Muay Thai in competitions??

The thing is, while MMA is a popular sport and a very good testing indicator of a person's skill level, not everyone is interested in MMA. Some people fit the criteria of San Shou more because the skill focus is much more on striking and wrestling as opposed to groundwork and submissions.

The point is, if we as TCMA practioners do not give credit to the styles that fight and compete with their art, why should anyone else.

[Ray Pina]

The point is, if we as TCMA practioners do not give credit to the styles that fight and compete with their art, why should anyone else.

You are right about this! Those men should get credit!

On the other hand, I bet my views on training are similar to those men fighting in the ring. Just by the nature of what they're putting themselves into.

It's not right for every CLF person here to claim the same and ride that bandwagon. Two people can study math... one can become a bum, the other a billionaire. It's how you apply it.

A teacher of a combat art shouldn't have to scurry Youtube for footage. He should have fight footage of his own students. One doesn't submit someone else's work for their own portfolio.

I don't have the opportunity to discuss training with those men in the ring. I'm discussing it with men here, who profess form but have no fighters.

[hskwarrior]

I'm thinking of taking up CLF myself now. I'm kind of digging the big, sweeping, wax on wax off like element strikes.... they don't really leave one too open for too long. Shame no one has really crossed over successfully to MMA with that. Maybe time. Give Sifu Fank's guys a couple more years.

My guys aren't interested in SPORTS MODEL martial arts. they are perfectly happy knowing they can defend themselves in a street confrontation.

Yet, the beauty of it is, all YOU see are big moves and naturally think we are so very wide open and having no tighter more compact moves. You probably thinking "they don't know how to close those doors" and thats what we want too believe.

[Frost]

So first it was because they weren’t fighting and just did forms, when this was proved to be wrong you switched and argued because the format they were fighting in (Sanda) was so restrictive and silly it was like TKD fighting and didn’t count, when you were called on this you again switched tactic and now argue its not MMA so it doesn’t count?

seriously come on Ray you bash TCMA and talk about how great MMA is and boxing , then suddenly say how you much prefer the internal methods for stand up than boxing…..you talk about how great the internal structures you train are for stand up (yet no one is using them in MMA or Sanda and the only person who tried is you…look how that turned out) yet dismiss a style that constantly competes and wins more than its share in Sanda….cant you see the double standards you are using

You dismiss all the talk about deadly street fights coming from the CLF crowd but still go on and on about the master taking on all challengers…again can we say double standards?

[hskwarrior]

So first it was because they weren’t fighting and just did forms, when this was proved to be wrong you switched and argued because the format they were fighting in (Sanda) was so restrictive and silly it was like TKD fighting and didn’t count, when you were called on this you again switched tactic and now argue its not MMA so it doesn’t count?

Nothing will change his mind. I'm not going to worry about what one man has to say. no matter what you present him with, it will never be good enough because he isn't the one being watched. LOL.


(yet no one is using them in MMA or Sanda and the only person who tried is you…look how that turned out) yet dismiss a style that constantly competes and wins more than its share in Sanda….cant you see the double standards you are using

All he can see is his reflection in the mirror. LMAO and that's all he cares about. LOL.

For the record.....CLF doesn't claim to be deadly. Not in my lineage. Some of the fights our elders have had in the past may have ended in death somtimes, but we've always claimed to be a practical style with practical techniques for practical situations. No other claims.

[Ray Pina]

So first it was because they weren’t fighting and just did forms
THEY aren't fighting. Not the people I'm having this discussion with.... they're taking credit for someone else's homework.



San Da is not MMA. Local San Da is not professional MMA.

[hskwarrior]

San Da is not MMA. Local San Da is not professional MMA.

This quote!!!!!!!!! LMAO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing is NOT MMA, local boxing is NOT pro MMA
MT is not MMA, local MT is not Pro MMA.

Such insight !

Next up:
Blowjobs are NOT handjobs.
Getting blown is not like get jackedoff, local BJ's are NOT Pro rub-n-tugs !

[Frost]

No it all started when you knocked one persons view of CLF as being one of the best TCMA out there saying he was basing in on that video? Which he wasn’t and again you are off track we are not talking about one persons view of CLF or their personal CLF, we are talking about the style being seen as one of the better TCMA in some peoples view….. why because the style has a proven fighting record, its got nothing to do with taking the credit for someone else’s work its got to do with acknowledging that as a style CLF across the board seems to turn up a lot in full contact fighting comps, that doesn’t mean everyone can fight with it (just like going to a boxing gym doesn’t mean you can fight)

No sh*t sanda is not MMA, who said it was what was said is that Sanda is an open full contact venue that CLF (unlike other styles you seem to really like) does well in over and over and comparing it to TKD was stupid

So back to my question cant you see the double standards in your views of the internal arts you practise beinf great for stand up in Sanda or MMA (But with no actual prove anywhere of it doing well insanda let alone MMA) and then bashing CLF which does have a proven fight record in Sanda?

[Ray Pina]

Boxing is NOT MMA, local boxing is NOT pro MMA
MT is not MMA, local MT is not Pro MMA.

Such insight !

Next up:
Blowjobs are NOT handjobs.
Getting blown is not like get jackedoff, local BJ's are NOT Pro rub-n-tugs !

That is all true.

One is still a virgin if they're only getting hand jobs. One can't say they are producing high level fighters today if they're only fighting in local venues that don't account for BJJ.... a dominant fighting system today.

[hskwarrior]

Boxing is NOT MMA, local boxing is NOT pro MMA
MT is not MMA, local MT is not Pro MMA.

Such insight !

Next up:
Blowjobs are NOT handjobs.
Getting blown is not like get jackedoff, local BJ's are NOT Pro rub-n-tugs !

hey, don't show him how to see outside the box. he likes his tiny box man.....



One can't say they are producing high level fighters today if they're only fighting in local venues that don't account for BJJ.... a dominant fighting system today.

THIS

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is all true.

One is still a virgin if they're only getting hand jobs. One can't say they are producing high level fighters today if they're only fighting in local venues that don't account for BJJ.... a dominant fighting system today.

I don't recall anyone using the term "high-level" fighters and would probably argue that the vast majority of BJJ or MMA peeps are NOT high level either.

You're being narrow minded Ray.
For many of us older guys, when MMA wasn't an option, know what we did?
We competed in DIFFERENT sports to develop different skills.
We boxed or KB for the striking and wrestled or did judo for the grappling, etc.
In many ways I personally believe that is a far better method to develop SPECIFIC skill sets, but that is another thread.
Point being that striking systems competing in striking venues are doing the same thing as grappling systems competing in grappling venues.

[Ray Pina]

Nwe are talking about the style being seen as one of the better TCMA in some peoples view….. why because the style has a proven fighting record,

OK. Now we're on the same page...... my opinion, CLF has not proven itself in today's modern MMA. This is an important distinction because of the proven effectiveness of BJJ. Saying you can handle bow and arrows but not guns outdates you today.




So back to my question cant you see the double standards in your views of the internal arts you practise beinf great for stand up in Sanda or MMA (But with no actual prove anywhere of it doing well insanda let alone MMA) and then bashing CLF which does have a proven fight record in Sanda?

I never said internal was good for anything. I said I learned some mechanics that were important to me. I learned some sticking from TCMA that is important to me.

As far as effectiveness in MMA, I clump all TCMA together. No one has risen to prove its effectiveness along the lines of BJJ, Muay Tai and even Karate.

[hskwarrior]

I don't recall anyone using the term "high-level" fighters and would probably argue that the vast majority of BJJ or MMA peeps are NOT high level either.

the only HIGH LEVEL fighter is Ray Pina. He's the best. he's our man. if no one can do it, RAY PINA can. LOL. Shish Boom Bah......


OK. Now we're on the same page...... my opinion, CLF has not proven itself in today's modern MMA. This is an important distinction because of the proven effectiveness of BJJ. Saying you can handle bow and arrows but not guns outdates you today.

Why would we? until now, CLF was purely a stand up art. anyone with any kind of sense knows they advantage....NOT ARSE WHIPPING....but advantage would go to MMA because of the ground fighting. But, more and more CLF are taking up BJJ to supplement their game and i see CLF moving closer and closer to entering MMA matches. Right now, CLF has re-entered to ring to fight in San Shou and other stand up full contact matches.

It seems ray pina is caught in that OLD frame of mind "my style is better than yours"..........kid sh1t

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue isn't that Ray doesn't have a point, it's that the point is too narrow minded.
That CLF guys choose to comepte in San shour is no different than MT figthers choosing to compete in only MT or kyokushin guys choosing to compete in only Kyokushin.
That some MT and karate guys cross over to MMA takes nothing away from those that DON'T choose to do that or from the original venues they came from.

[Frost]

OK. Now we're on the same page...... my opinion, CLF has not proven itself in today's modern MMA. This is an important distinction because of the proven effectiveness of BJJ. Saying you can handle bow and arrows but not guns outdates you today.




I never said internal was good for anything. I said I learned some mechanics that were important to me. I learned some sticking from TCMA that is important to me.

As far as effectiveness in MMA, I clump all TCMA together. No one has risen to prove its effectiveness along the lines of BJJ, Muay Tai and even Karate.

I agree its not proven itself in MMA, no TCMA style has, but by the same token its proved itself probably more effective in sanda than a lot of other TCMA, hence the comments by people its one of the better TCMA styles, no one brought up MMA at all….until you did

[hskwarrior]

no one brought up MMA at all….until you did
Reply With Quote

That's the TICKET........RIGHT THERE.

[goju]

I'm kind of digging the big, sweeping, wax on wax off like element strikes.... they don't really leave one too open for too long. Shame no one has really crossed over successfully to MMA with that..

Yes i know you really dont see hay makers in mma AT ALL:D

[hskwarrior]

actually,

one of the MMA camps does have some people with CLF background. Bob Cook, his father was a Hung Sing CLF stylist. Bob, the son, also knows CLF. But CLF is not the focus of this video so you won't hear about it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/shows/mmathletics?vid=28faba9e-07f6-4490-9137-efb607fd24db

[Ray Pina]

Yes i know you really dont see hay makers in mma AT ALL:D

You see one and then a return to base. And then maybe another and return to base.

You don't see a succession of large, telegraphed windmill like strikes....if you saw that tendency in a fighter it would be front kick city and double leg takedowns all day. That's why I didn't see those element strikes even in the San Da footage.

[Ray Pina]

...but I understand. It's that proven tendency to train things one way and then use them completely differently. Spend countless hours in low horse stance forms and then stand erect like, well, a kick boxer.

Makes sense. Seems to be working out. How many Choy Lee Fut guys are in the UFC?


1, 2, NONE!!!!!!!

[RWilson]

Guys let us all be friends. We need a good laugh to lighten the mood.

Dave Ross please post your one san da fight where you were beaten in one punch. I will get the popcorn ready.

[hskwarrior]

...but I understand. It's that proven tendency to train things one way and then use them completely differently. Spend countless hours in low horse stance forms and then stand erect like, well, a kick boxer.

Makes sense. Seems to be working out. How many Choy Lee Fut guys are in the UFC?


1, 2, NONE!!!!!!!

LMAO!!!!!! YOU aren't in the UFC either. :p

[goju]

You see one and then a return to base. And then maybe another and return to base.

You don't see a succession of large, telegraphed windmill like strikes....if you saw that tendency in a fighter it would be front kick city and double leg takedowns all day. That's why I didn't see those element strikes even in the San Da footage.


http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Vladimir_Matyushenko_vs_Vernon_White_1?vid=100035 64

funny because is see three windmills trikes in succession here and we hasnt front kicked or taken down

[RWilson]

Ray, it is a known fact that choy la fut is for deadly street fighting where there are no cameras. The cameras are only around for the forms and never the sparring. But it had to be true that choy la fut teaches people to fight and not just do forms. Just look at all the video....

It should be called choy lay GUT. Dave Ross did lama and choy lay gut and look at his muscles. He is the perfect Kung Fu specimen.

He and Mike Patterson eat at the same donut shop every day but oy Mike drinks the Kung Fu kool aide.

[Ben Gash]

Yes, we're sorry that our fledgling full contact venue isn't as popular as another :rolleyes:
We're also sorry that none of the small number of practitioners in the west has risen to the elite levels of a format they haven't trained for :rolleyes:
This discussion is largely meaningless for another decade, when the new generation of teachers who've done San Shou and submission wrestling will see the fruition of their programs.
So, to recap, you've massively dragged the thread miles off topic to spout your misplaced vitriol for no real reason. This is pretty universally known as trolling.

[RWilson]

Yes, we're sorry that our fledgling full contact venue isn't as popular as another :rolleyes:
We're also sorry that none of the small number of practitioners in the west has risen to the elite levels of a format they haven't trained for :rolleyes:
This discussion is largely meaningless for another decade, when the new generation of teachers who've done San Shou and submission wrestling will see the fruition of their programs.
So, to recap, you've massively dragged the thread miles off topic to spout your misplaced vitriol for no real reason. This is pretty universally known as trolling.

Wow, was all this really necessary. You are a bright one.

[Ben Gash]

Ray's the one who's trolling.

[RWilson]

Choy lay guy guys beat wing chun guys in Hong kong 50 years ago. Wow, big accomplishment. That is like me beating the people in the kid's class.

[wenshu]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9kbizGjs1qfjjglo1_500.gif

[hskwarrior]

WTF is up with his eyebrow man hhahahaha

[sanjuro_ronin]

Luckily that after the last round of bannings we don't have any more trolls.
:D

[Ray Pina]

LMAO!!!!!! YOU aren't in the UFC either. :p

This isn't about me.

I would think we certainly don't want to start questioning our individual fighting experiences do we?

I'm 37. I tried my MMA experience and aside from a couple wins against lesser, mediocre players, I wasn't successful. Found the right path a little late in life and now don't have the time/desire to put into it what it requires: full dedicated devotion.

With that said, I don't take credit for other's success nor make excuses for my failures. I do my own fighting for myself. When I teach, I teach from a place of first hand experience.

Gaging from your videos. You're what? 270lbs? You ready to step up and fight an MMA super heavy weight?

[Ray Pina]

This discussion is largely meaningless for another decade, when the new generation of teachers who've done San Shou and submission wrestling will see the fruition of their programs.

So you're saying TCMA will be in 2011 in 2021?

[Lebaufist]

Pontificate much???:confused:

[wenshu]

Ross banned himself nearly a month ago and he still gets trolled.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm172/Z06Hogg/legendary.gif

[hskwarrior]

This isn't about me.

I would think we certainly don't want to start questioning our individual fighting experiences do we?

I'm 37. I tried my MMA experience and aside from a couple wins against lesser, mediocre players, I wasn't successful. Found the right path a little late in life and now don't have the time/desire to put into it what it requires: full dedicated devotion.

With that said, I don't take credit for other's success nor make excuses for my failures. I do my own fighting for myself. When I teach, I teach from a place of first hand experience.

Gaging from your videos. You're what? 270lbs? You ready to step up and fight an MMA super heavy weight?

For one, you're 37, I'm 43. Yes, i'm a big, fat guy. So what. Do you know how hard it is to come back from being paralyzed from the waist down? I do. I was told I would never walk again after falling 50 feet, breaking 3 parts of my back. IMHO, to me, that is more important than winning any sport or sport fighting record. yes, i gained weight. But I'm back to working on losing it. I hit my spin bike, i train along with my students. But is losing weight my primary focus? No. I don't mind being big aside from having to wear bigger clothes, i don't move like a sloth.

I'm not into fighting for sport. Sure I like watching it, but that is a game for those who want to play it. where i live, fighting happens all the time. for example, although we didn't fight the guy (you'll understand why) last sunday we were having a tong meeting when this crazy violent type of screaming took place. there was a crazy chinese guy with a HUUUUUUGE ass crocodile dundee type knife. He tried to attack our people but a few us held the guy off from entering our tong so they the guy started stabbing and chopping at his own arm. i mean the sh1t was crazy. I can still hear in my head the sound of this guys artery SPURTING out blood. its really a nasty sound haha.

So i don't worry about sport fighting. I have enough out here to deal with. see the guys bloody shirt on the floor at the feet of the Fireman.......SQUIRT SQUIRT ........

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307689_10150319964167732_697132731_8016499_1618748 415_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

Ray, I did just realize something...... "I coulda been a contenda"....... is how you sound bro. just saying. :)

[Lebaufist]

This subject does touch on the "stepping up " fallacy. Is the measure of a MAist really whether he's stepped into a ring? You're only as good as the opponents you've beat squarely. So and so may have had a few bouts, but against who? Tomato cans don't count. And can one be certain the guy who doesn't have a "record" hasn't actually fought in hard contact matches?

So...


Just because one has been in a ring, does that give one clout to pontificate over all others?

[hskwarrior]

This subject does touch on the "stepping up " fallacy. Is the measure of a MAist really whether he's stepped into a ring? You're only as good as the opponents you've beat squarely. So and so may have had a few bouts, but against who? Tomato cans don't count. And can one be certain the guy who doesn't have a "record" hasn't actually fought in hard contact matches?

So...


Just because one has been in a ring, does that give one clout to pontificate over all others?

perhaps his ship has sailed and he's pretty bitter bout it all. its ok. just make sure our students don't miss the ship. But lets be completely real without offense intended, if Ray really was the elite his fight record would reflect that, correct? good or bad, you whip all. that is why the ELITE are ELITE. just because you train in a fighting method that has produced ELITE athletes isn't a promise that HE will be elite as well.

[Dragonzbane76]

This thread is somewhat similar to a goat biting down on your d!ck.

[hskwarrior]

This thread is somewhat similar to a goat biting down on your d!ck.

Ok the imagery of that made me LOL.......funny funny

[bawang]

This thread is somewhat similar to a goat biting down on your d!ck.

no. thats more enjoyable.

[Ray Pina]

if Ray really was the elite his fight record would reflect that, correct? good or bad, you whip all. that is why the ELITE are ELITE. just because you train in a fighting method that has produced ELITE athletes isn't a promise that HE will be elite as well.

I never said I was an elite competitive fighter. I said I am a life long martial artists who has entered various competitions to test my skills. I never won until training BJJ/MMA.... granted, those skills are specific to the venue I was interested in. But these skills made me a better martial artists. I have no illusions at being on the bottom of the pecking order of MMA. In fact, I no longer compete in MMA.

However, like it or not, as one of only a few members here who have competed in sanctioned events, that does make me elite here..... which I admit doesn't say much.

[hskwarrior]

However, like it or not, as one of only a few members here who have competed in sanctioned events, that does make me elite here..... which I admit doesn't say much.

Its ok to wish you were elite bro. you can be whatever you wanna be dude. its ok with me. :D

[RWilson]

Ray's record may not be elite but that means all you deadly Kung Fu fighters are even less elite. So stop pretending.

If you had not broke your back would you have had a better record than Ray? Probably not.

[goju]

Ray's record may not be elite but that means all you deadly Kung Fu fighters are even less elite. .

I think its more comparable to someone who played a bit of high school football chest puffing at the kids at pee wee practice.:D

there's plenty of fighters on sherdog for example. Why not post there where you can be amongst your supposed peers? unless of course your accomplishments will pale in comparison to them and therefore make one insecure.

A scrub is a scrub. Merely going on a place where theres less competitors and acting like you're big stuff only makes you look sad no matter how you want to slice it. I doubt anyone here is dense enough not to see the ole big fish in a small pond routine when its being played out.

[Lebaufist]

Ray's record may not be elite but that means all you deadly Kung Fu fighters are even less elite. So stop pretending.

If you had not broke your back would you have had a better record than Ray? Probably not.

Wow, mature............

[Lebaufist]

However, like it or not, as one of only a few members here who have competed in sanctioned events, that does make me elite here..... which I admit doesn't say much.

That only means you competed in a tourney, against whom? Anybody of note? How does that distinguish you from the guy who did hard contact in his basement? The level of talent is the same. Its all grandstanding. You going in and losing at that age doesn't prove anything either. Its ridiculous. You're really going with that "by proxy" stance? That "You were there" so therefore you're part of the band? The 5th Beatle? LOL!

This "sick men of asia" routine **** belongs in bad kung fu films.

You assume too much of the people here. You do realize that several people on this board were in their fighting prime long before such events existed. Before video was available to every schmuck with a phone.

Again, I've asked you this before. What makes you so special? I haven't seen anything of your vids that makes me sit up in my chair. Neither from you or your "opponents".

Also, some of your footage was from bullshido TDs , not exactly a bragging right.

Do us all a favor. If you want to prove your point, go on a road trip. Challenge every school you can. And then sit on your soap box and blow brown **** bubbles.

[Golden Arms]

You assume too much of the people here. You do realize that several people on this board were in their fighting prime long before such events existed. Before video was available to every schmuck with a phone.

Again, I've asked you this before. What makes so special? I haven't seen anything of your vids that makes me sit up in my chair. Neither from you or your "opponents".

Also, some of your footage was from bullshido TDs , not exactly a bragging right.

Do us all a favor. If you want to prove your point, go on a road trip. Challenge every school you can.

+1

Alternately,

You could just keep quiet, train like you are serious about it, and make it your personal business to get better for life like some of us have been doing for years. To be in the top % takes sacrifice, a lot of it, and that from my experience is the real truth. The nicer things in life are great, but each one of them detracts from time one could spend sharpening their skill set and strengthening self discipline. Being honest with ourselves about what we are putting in allows for realistic expectations of what we can expect to get out.

[diego]

Ray is dumb the average kung fu student is like 5 foot 8 less than 175 pounds..even if they win they are only elite lightweights lol Mike Tyson would punch em out so great they are elite midgets wow lol who cares just be happy you can spar most people dont have the time. Martial arts always lived with the rich and the talented..besides a poor person is going to attack with weapons not a jab and takedown. Reflexes and agility is all we can rely on and its all gone if you make it to 85 anyway you better have a firearm permit and hope dementia doesnt **** up your eyesight.

[Gru Bianca]

You see one and then a return to base. And then maybe another and return to base.

You don't see a succession of large, telegraphed windmill like strikes....if you saw that tendency in a fighter it would be front kick city and double leg takedowns all day. That's why I didn't see those element strikes even in the San Da footage.

Perhaps, in your search on the tube you have not bumped into this yet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaUxI6R-79o

it's not Choy Li Fut but it's a style that I believe on certain aspects resembles it some how.
Can you tell what style is that without reading the comments?

There you have it,...TCMA in MMA used as it is trained and winning, perhaps one of the few cases,..but still.....

Ciao

[hskwarrior]

it's not Choy Li Fut but it's a style that I believe on certain aspects resembles it some how.
Can you tell what style is that without reading the comments?


It really looks alot like choy lee fut. but it could be White Crane. I know they use stances and the Sow Choy alot too

wow....if that sow choy at 7:37 would have landed....good night. haha

[Gru Bianca]

It really looks alot like choy lee fut. but it could be White Crane. I know they use stances and the Sow Choy alot too

wow....if that sow choy at 7:37 would have landed....good night. haha

what he was doing resembles more to me to a chau choy then sow choy but...you got pretty close anyway :D

[hskwarrior]

what he was doing resembles more to me to a chau choy then sow choy but...you got pretty close anyway

oh, haha, for us thats a sow choy. for a muscular guy he had a nice loose swing. you can tell when someone tries to MUSCLE his way through a Sow Choy...

[XinKuzi]

This forum is crazy, I tell ya. OP asks for some info on Pak Mei & CLF in NY. I post one possible school to check out (maybe the one he was asking about initially), and that leads to 8 pages of uptight, unsolicited pontification.

I can't take seriously any martial artist (well, anyone, really) who can find the time to talk so much ****. I'd rather offer advice when asked, and train for my own personal reasons.

Good luck finding what YOU are looking for, Frenchie.

[Ray Pina]

That only means you competed in a tourney, against whom? Anybody of note? How does that distinguish you from the guy who did hard contact in his basement? The level of talent is the same.

We'll forget skill because I know of skilled men who train in their basements and garages. Tough individuals. Usually older, former fighters.

But do you think the level of intensity is the same between a sanctioned, pro MMA event that one trains months for specifically, in which friends, families and people who paid for the medical exams, license, hotel/food/travel are overseeing is the same as "hard contact" (I'm assuming you mean sparring) in the basement?

One is literally a fight until you finish. The other is training.

[Ray Pina]

This forum is crazy, I tell ya. OP asks for some info on Pak Mei & CLF in NY. I post one possible school to check out (maybe the one he was asking about initially), and that leads to 8 pages of uptight, unsolicited pontification.

I can't take seriously any martial artist (well, anyone, really) who can find the time to talk so much ****. I'd rather offer advice when asked, and train for my own personal reasons.

Good luck finding what YOU are looking for, Frenchie.

I think those pages inform one what to look for when seeking a place to train combat.

We now know here are:
The forms and light chi sau/line drill schools
Form, light chia sau/line drill and beat foam noodle institutions
Some form, some chi sau/line drills but mostly kick boxing schools

We also learned that most here tie themselves to the last group but very few are producing fighters here, except Ross. Who I would guess has cut form out almost completely, except to cater to the more delicate types. I doubt his real fighters have time for form.

We also learned that Choy Le Fut will be able to handle BJJ in 2021.... that's very exciting.

[hskwarrior]

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-funny-or-just-played-out.jpg

[Gru Bianca]

I think those pages inform one what to look for when seeking a place to train combat.

We now know here are:
The forms and light chi sau/line drill schools
Form, light chia sau/line drill and beat foam noodle institutions
Some form, some chi sau/line drills but mostly kick boxing schools

We also learned that most here tie themselves to the last group but very few are producing fighters here, except Ross. Who I would guess has cut form out almost completely, except to cater to the more delicate types. I doubt his real fighters have time for form.

We also learned that Choy Le Fut will be able to handle BJJ in 2021.... that's very exciting.

And we also know now how selective you are in your researches. :rolleyes:

[Marcelo-RJ]

As an answer to your question, let me tell you that I trained under Sifu Wong Zen Yem of the Brooklyn CLF school and really got amazed of his skills and even more amazed of his willing to teach. Also, Sifu Wong's students were very receptive and willing to exchange techniques and ideas.

I have previous experience in another TCMA, but - it's only me here, right? - Sifu Wong's CLF changed my way to generate and deliver power in such a way that my stand up game improved considerably. At this writing, my hands and feet training is focused in CLF (although not limited to that CMA).

I'm from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and belong to Alexandre Nogueira's (Alexandre Pequeno, 7x Shooto Japan Champion, who also fought in K1 and WEC) MMA club (pictures on FB). I have a full time job and do not fight professionaly, though.

Unfortunately, I had no time to visit the Pak Mei school (I wanted to, but things got somehow astrayed from the original plans). However, my wife's family has moved from Rio to NY, so there will be more opportunities to visit the city and train in the future.

Please, visit the schools, try a class and make your choice.

Hope this is of some help.

[XinKuzi]

Thanks for the input, Marcelo-RJ. I've been interested in hearing from someone who studied with Sifu Wong. If I were anywhere near him, I'd love to visit his school.

[Lebaufist]

And we also know now how selective you are in your researches. :rolleyes:
Watch out, he's.............


............superior.

He's received a magic blanket he wears as a cape. Given to him by the dark lord of the rings.

[Gru Bianca]

Watch out, he's.............


............superior.

He's received a magic blanket he wears as a cape. Given to him by the dark lord of the rings.


yeah,... a magic blanket made of weed smoke :D

[SoCo KungFu]

That wasn't the question you asked, now was it? You asked where the Choy Li Fut fighters were, I pointed to their participation in legitimate full contact events, you tried to change the argument :rolleyes:

He asked a question. Got an answer. The answer leads to another question. That's not changing the topic, they were relevant statements. That's called logic.

[Lucas]

I dont do much form training anymore, not as much time for it, but I've seen vid of Lyoto Machida doing kata. He's a 3rd Dan in shotokan, a bb in bjj and could probably whoop most everyone on this forum. I think it depends on if a person finds value for themselves. I doubt he spends a lot of time anymore on kata, but it is generally part of any karate curriculum.