Grab

[YouKnowWho]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

[Dragonzbane76]

haha good question. forgot the plum as well. I'm sure you're going to get the usual it's just for training reply.

realistic training lacks in many places...:rolleyes:

[LivingArt]

My response would be root self, pull them forward to offset balance with simultaneous knife strike to throat, followed by chain punches/deflecting whatever their other hand is doing. A possible sweep at their leading leg or some heel strikes to upper leg/abdomen area.

[SPJ]

point line then circle

1 points, wrist, elbow, shoulder

2. lines: ---

3 circles: around wrist, elbow, shoulder

once done with fixed steps

we do moving steps.

:)

[GETHIN]

In Yongchun Crane we are told if your wrist is grabbed - chop the opponents wrist hard with your free hand, but I think I would resort to some Chin na.
If the grab is made above the elbow I would hope to be in a position to use that arm to pivot free, or if very close use the elbow to strike, or again - Chin na.

[Subitai]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

Shhhh, don't tell anyone to start workin' on that!!!

Man this is what my school focuses on allot, "Hand never comes back empty". Grab and get some kinda control...
Be it hand control or just listening to some higher gates on the arm (all the way towards his center) is where the real fighting ends up.

Not slap happy slappity slappity. Anyway, Grab can be akin to "Pluck"....

Grabbing is good but can be bad if your mind is focused TOO long in one place. That's why they have that saying "he who holds, is also held by himself"

Most grapplers love when you hold them...then they know exactly where your hands are.

There are many kinds of grab on the arm for example: Some with the opposing thumb and others that only use Pinky, ring and middle finger...less so with the index finger. Depends on the wrist and angle...certain fingers get stronger or weaker structurally as you do different holds. Some are w/o the thumb and its more of a squeeze against your palm (ergo your release is quicker)

"O"

[YouKnowWho]

It will be your advantage if you are a grappler and force a striker to play your grappling game.

[MightyB]

I don't worry about grabs unless the guy's got total wrist control. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM)

[MightyB]

The problem with Tai Chi push hands theory and training is they stop half-way. If they followed it through to completion, it'd look more like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrwhMPGW5hA)

If somebody did that to a Tai Chi guy, they'd be F*(%ed.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When someone grabs you, it is not usually a random act in the fight. He probably has a reason for grabbing you. Not just to control you, but to simply control you while he does his thing to you. If grabbed, you usually have a split second to respond. I know that when I grab someone, they only have a split second to respond, and then usually that is not going to be enough. In some systems this is a common issue that is trained against. Believe it or not, it does happen quite a bit in a close encounter of the worst kind.

[YouKnowWho]

Your "grabbing" along with "pulling" can help you to achieve the following goals:

- put your opponent in defense mode so he won't think about attacking you for 1/4 second..
- start fight close to your opponent instead of close to you.
- disable your opponent's striking ability ASAP.
- put your opponent's arms in a temporay place so it won't be in you moving path.
- prevent your opponent from moving back.
- pull yourself into your opponent (or pull your opponent into you).
- shake your opponent to force him to make certain commitment.
- create a head on collusion.
- give before take.

[wiz cool c]

The first trip i took to china,with a group of about ten, all internal art student here to study bagua and tai chi. at the time i was really into push hands comps,so i was excited to have some like minded people around me . to my surprise nobody wanted to push, but i eventually made my way through the group, well there was this one guy real dushbag of a *****,who took it upon him self to act like an assistant instructor. well he seemed to avoid pushing with me till one day we were waiting out side the training hall for the key to come,when i asked if anyone want to practice push, so this ***** takes this as a challenge and says ok i will push.


So we get ready to push and first thing he does is grab my winter coat,[it was beijing in the winter and we are outside] and tries to pull me face first into the floor. i just shuffled forward and rooted,it had no affect. so he tried it again,i did the same shuffle and root,he could break my balance,the he just all out starts trying to wrestle me we wind up backs against a fence. ok through all this i still didn't grab him back and wanted to stick to the no grabbing rule. so ok, now i feel it's my turn. so we square off again and begin. i coil my arms inside of his so as i have a superior clinch but without grabbing,[something seen in chen style pushing often].once there i give a slight shoulder shove to upset his balance, then do a rear outside sweep. down he goes. from his back and me standing above him he tried some unsuccessful attempts to trip me.


At the wu tang school,[frank allen's school] in new york we used to do some fun variations with push hands. one time we did fixed step push hands with qi na allowed. my opponent was one of franks students,who also has a second degree black belt in aikido,and i have a black belt in japanese jujitsu, any way neither could obtain any locks in that session. another is each player has a wooden knife in the back of their pants and can grab it and try to cut at any time,the other must try to neutralize and defend.

[Ben Gash]

I use our sticky hands as a vehicle to teach all our Chin Na, clinch and Shuai Jiao work. At the end of the day it's a handfighting drill, what you do with it is up to you.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

Since I have zero training in either Taiji or WC, I will ask the question. Why can you not grab the wrist, elbow, bicep, under/over hook, or plum??:confused:

Considering these are an essential part of clinch and grappling it seems stupid to not train these. In our system we have Mantis sticky hand training but you most certainly can grab the wrist, elbow, and back of the neck, as this is the nature of Mantis, seize, lock, and destroy. The two clips shown above may be fine for "feeling" drills, but the reality is when a grappler shoots and locks most of that goes out the window and plum, hook, sinking, and rooting are what you can use effectively.

So back to my question, why in Taiji and WC can you not use those techniques discussed, does it take away from the supposed purity of the system??

[Ben Gash]

In pushing hands competitions, you can grab the arm but not the head. The video that he showed contains basic level sensitivity training drills, this is the actual pushing hands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpY0s2ua9eo
I don't know what the hell was going on in that Wing Chun video, but again wrist and biceps grabs are pretty common.

[YouKnowWho]

So back to my question, why in Taiji and WC can you not use those techniques discussed, does it take away from the supposed purity of the system??

I'm not the person who care much about the system purity. In Taiji push hand you can push without grabbing but you can't pull without grabbing. To pull your oppponent into your strike is a very common strategy in the TCMA. Whether that grab is a solid grab or loose grab, it's a grab by definition.

[Subitai]

Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76
So back to my question, why in Taiji and WC can you not use those techniques discussed, does it take away from the supposed purity of the system??



I'm not the person who care much about the system purity. In Taiji push hand you can push without grabbing but you can't pull without grabbing. To pull your oppponent into your strike is a very common strategy in the TCMA. Whether that grab is a solid grab or loose grab, it's a grab by definition.

I can't imagine anyone who doesn't practice being able to grab. It's so very intergrated...I already mentioned Cai in Tai Chi...what more do you need?

Probably the only people who don't are the ones worried about competition and rules. Those are the only times I would ever run into people who think this way. Even worse, you get the dreaded Slaps Forehead Statement:
I thought tai chi was for health only?

Been to meet ups, local gatherings, World Tai Chi Day events ect ect ect... and you'll always find a group of guys... "together, allittle off to the side" doing their own freestyle stuff. These are the guys who are more willing to mix it up.

[ginosifu]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

All CMA should have several ranges of fighting:

Long Range - This is when the confrontation begins (usually). Long range fists or kicks here.

Short to Middle - When opponents close with short range fists, knees and elbows. Grabbing / Wrestling shoots also may start here.

Grappling Range - While in close grabbing / Chin Na / Wrestling all happen here.

Throwing Range - Usually between short and close range when grabbing starts here.

Now I don't care what style you are doing, Taiji, Wing Chun, Kung Fu, Shaolin, karate, taekwondo, judo, BJJ etc etc does not matter. When you are close, sensitivty skills kick in, grabbing is key to fighting in this range.

Taiji push hands have grabbing techniques, clinching, throws, elbows and knees etc etc. Many problems I see in modern Taiji perception is that it is this type of health art where you stretch out and breath and do those relaxing slow movements.

Many people go out and learn a Taiji form at a seminar and you see them start teaching at a local YMCA or civic center etc. Now they are a Taiji instructor - geeesh. I get this all the time.... people learned a Taiji form at a YMCA and are now coming to me and asking what the movements are for and how they can intergrate them into self defense.

I do not teach Wing Chun but I would assume the same thing, people see the Chi Sau drill and only assume there is only touching and slow rythmic movements. No one realizes there is a whole self defense system built into place.

Many people SEE only what they want to see... that is the fluffy stuff. No one wants to admit the ugly side of martial arts (that we have to hit and beat each other, and it usually looks kinda grapply and barbaric). Everyone one wants to believe there are doing MA to improve there their lives and learn the ancient self defense stuff, but no one really wants to go there.... sorta .

YouKnowWho: every style of push hands or sensitivety skills should grab, elbow, grip and throw etc etc.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

I already mentioned Cai in Tai Chi...what more do you need?

In another thread, someone stated "Chen Taiji's 'no grab' concept". Not sure all Chen Taiji guys feel the same way here. Many Taiji guys have strong attitude such as, "you grab me, you allow me to hold you". As if you grab on someone, you are a dead meat. In my experience, it's always the other way around. :D

It's also interest to notice that none of our WC brothers has participated in this discussion yet. :p

[Dragonzbane76]

Many Taiji guys have strong attitude such as, "you grab me, you allow me to hold you". As if you grab on someone, you are a dead meat. In my experience, it's always the other way around.

I dont understand how someone could believe that "grabbing" onto someone is a bad thing. I hope someone grabs onto me, thats my comfort zone. I feel better knowing where there hands are.
Are not these drills for clinch work?

[bawang]

john wang, how many times we need to go over this? push hands is not fighting. you are breaking my balls, man.

[ginosifu]

john wang, how many times we need to go over this? push hands is not fighting. you are breaking my balls, man.

Bawang: Your Push Hands is not for fighting. My push Hands was designed for combat in the Taiji system. Your Push Hands was probably learned from a guy who learned it at a YMCA or Civic center. They only know that kinda flowery pushing stuff that is only done softly and slowly against a slow and soft partner.

My Push Hands is like wrestling, once you have learned a skill it must be tested against a "LIVE" partner.

Geeeeeeeeesh beginners, bawang, you need to train for a few more years and then you can start talking crap about Taiji.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

If fighting is to "struggle" then even Chi sao is fighting ;)

[Ray Pina]

The guy who doesn't mind his collar being grabbed is often the guy who gets choked or thrown. Grip breaking is an entire skill unto itself.

With that said, just grabbing without impacting the other's balance/position, etc. is taking one weapon off the table.... good guys won't do that. Better guys impact you and displace your balance with the grab and follow it up.

[Ray Pina]

No one wants to admit the ugly side of martial arts (that we have to hit and beat each other

It's so confusing to me here:confused:

One post everyone is an expert based off of other's footage. Another post there's admittance that there's an entire group claiming to be martial artists and experts in combat without any experience.

If not every class, 80% of class should have live, free play with throws and strikes. You get hurt training martial arts. Just like one gets hurt practicing football.... it's a contact activity.

[ginosifu]

It's so confusing to me here:confused:

One post everyone is an expert based off of other's footage. Another post there's admittance that there's an entire group claiming to be martial artists and experts in combat without any experience.

What's so confusing Ray? The world is full pretenders and con artists. Many people are pretenders and don't even know it. They go and learn a Taiji or even a kung fu form at a seminar or workshop. The person giving the seminar states he is teaching you "YANG" style Tai Chi or "Drunken Fist" Boxing.

For all you know he gave you the whole system. Now you go off and start teaching this form at rec centers and telling people they are learning Yang Style. Now these people have no idea what is or is not the complete style of Tai Chi, they were just told they were learning Yang Style.

So this viscious cycle goes on and on until somebody comes to me and tells me they learned "Yang Style Tai Chi, and then I explain the whole system to them and their mouths drop open and they tell me they spent years in this "LIE" thinking they had all the whole Tai Chi system.. Most people do not have a True understanding of what a complete MA system is.


If not every class, 80% of class should have live, free play with throws and strikes. You get hurt training martial arts. Just like one gets hurt practicing football.... it's a contact activity.

Only 10% of the entire MA world participates in "Live" practice. In fact 90% of all styles, all gyms, all kwoons or dojo's have very few people sparring / wrestling / Fighting. These are just the hard cold facts of today's society. 90% of all people who come thru my doors are not interested in fighting / San Shou / Sparring etc etc.

To most people fighting is barbaric and not something fun to do or practice. Even though you get hurt in football practice, there is no attempt to hurt anyone. In MA there is that attempt to hurt or injure, therefore the ugliness!

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

Only 10% of the entire MA world participates in "Live" practice.
It's very easy to fix that problem. In the "beginning" of my class, I would ask all my students to make 2 circles. One inside circle and one outside circle. The person in inside circle would spar with the person in outside circle. After 2 minutes, the inside circle move one person to the left and continue ... Since it's part of the "warm up", all students are forced to spar no matter they like it or not. Also since nobody is watching, students can be more relax and have fun.

[Fa Xing]

It's very easy to fix that problem. In the "beginning" of my class, I would ask all my students to make 2 circles. One inside circle and one outside circle. The person in inside circle would spar with the person in outside circle. After 2 minutes, the inside circle move one person to the left and continue ... Since it's part of the "warm up", all students are forced to spar no matter they like it or not. Also since nobody is watching, students can be more relax and have fun.

Me like this one!

[ginosifu]

Only 10% of the entire MA world participates in "Live" practice. In fact 90% of all styles, all gyms, all kwoons or dojo's have very few people sparring / wrestling / Fighting.


It's very easy to fix that problem. In the "beginning" of my class, I would ask all my students to make 2 circles. One inside circle and one outside circle. The person in inside circle would spar with the person in outside circle. After 2 minutes, the inside circle move one person to the left and continue ... Since it's part of the "warm up", all students are forced to spar no matter they like it or not. Also since nobody is watching, students can be more relax and have fun.

No matter how you look at it, if you spar or fight a lot in class, many of your students will quit and leave you. You will be left with those 2 or 3 hardcore individuals that enjoy fighting. However you would have to go thru hundreds of students joining then quitting to leave you with that set of 2 or 3 hardcore students.

These are just the facts of today's MA students. It's not about fighting to most people. It's only about personal development and health and self defense!

ginosifu

[Ben Gash]

If not every class, 80% of class should have live, free play with throws and strikes. You get hurt training martial arts. Just like one gets hurt practicing football.... it's a contact activity.

All my classes have this, in fact 80% of my classes are live training (sparring, live padwork, non-compliant drills).

[ginosifu]

All my classes have this, in fact 80% of my classes are live training (sparring, live padwork, non-compliant drills).

I don't doubt your class structure. But this is not the normal for most all MA schools. You have to include those MA schools who are form junkies and those that have "No Contact" etc etc. If you were to average them all out, it would go back to 90 / 10 rule.

ginosifu

[Ben Gash]

But that wasn't what Ray said, he said every class "should", and it's hard to argue with that.

[ginosifu]

But that wasn't what Ray said, he said every class "should", and it's hard to argue with that.

I totally agree with both of you. Yes it should be that way 100%

ginosifu

[Dragonzbane76]

Only 10% of the entire MA world participates in "Live" practice. In fact 90% of all styles, all gyms, all kwoons or dojo's have very few people sparring / wrestling / Fighting.

I would say this about the traditional MA's kwoons/dojos/whatever. But on the other hand I see a turn in this. Most of the modern MMA gyms and boxing gyms do full contact most of the time. Been to many and almost all dedicate to contact sparring/fighting/grappling.

gino I agree with you about the 3-4 people that want what is given in that context. even in the modern take you see older guys coming in that just want to get in shape and are leary about sparring and injury. It's a give and take thing. If you are paying the bills and have overhead then yes you are going to cater to those that are "lighter" oriented.

Even though Ray comes off with an ego sometimes I agree with him on some points. Kung fu gets a bad name and everyone sits around and shakes there head and wonders why. Truth is reasoning behind stated is that forms "fairys", chi blasters, and dim mak touch kills have done this. Not stating you or some of the others on here do that. Plain fact is that a lot of what people these days are doing is pressure testing. The MMA "fade" as people like to state it as, has brought light to weaknesses given. If you are scared to test your skills then you are labeled for stated reasons.

I laugh when people stated that the street is the reasoning behind not competing, competition doesn't have anything to do with the "deadlz." another plain truth skills aquired through pressure testing translate right into the "street." I would rather test my skills to the very limit and know where I stand then sit around doing one step forms with pressure point apps. and not try it in a resistant environment and get my head smashed in for sure outside the gym.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, I don't know enough about those on here to gauge statements on them.

[Fa Xing]

Time to bring back challenge matches lol.

[ginosifu]

I would say this about the traditional MA's kwoons/dojos/whatever. But on the other hand I see a turn in this. Most of the modern MMA gyms and boxing gyms do full contact most of the time. Been to many and almost all dedicate to contact sparring/fighting/grappling.

gino I agree with you about the 3-4 people that want what is given in that context. even in the modern take you see older guys coming in that just want to get in shape and are leary about sparring and injury. It's a give and take thing. If you are paying the bills and have overhead then yes you are going to cater to those that are "lighter" oriented.

Even though Ray comes off with an ego sometimes I agree with him on some points. Kung fu gets a bad name and everyone sits around and shakes there head and wonders why. Truth is reasoning behind stated is that forms "fairys", chi blasters, and dim mak touch kills have done this. Not stating you or some of the others on here do that. Plain fact is that a lot of what people these days are doing is pressure testing. The MMA "fade" as people like to state it as, has brought light to weaknesses given. If you are scared to test your skills then you are labeled for stated reasons.

I laugh when people stated that the street is the reasoning behind not competing, competition doesn't have anything to do with the "deadlz." another plain truth skills aquired through pressure testing translate right into the "street." I would rather test my skills to the very limit and know where I stand then sit around doing one step forms with pressure point apps. and not try it in a resistant environment and get my head smashed in for sure outside the gym.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, I don't know enough about those on here to gauge statements on them.

We should all pressure test our skills, whether in the ring or in your kwoon or in the local parks etc etc. I agree with this 100%, I just tried point out that many modern students just do not want to fight.

I have talked with some Gracie BJJ dojos and some Strictly MMA schools here in my area and even they admit that not everyone coming in their doors are willing to roll around every day. There are only a handful of peeps that like mixing it up all the time.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

even in the modern take you see older guys coming in that just want to get in shape and are leary about sparring and injury.
What do you guys think about this kind of sparring that you let your full force punch to go through "next to" your opponent's head. I have never tried this kind of format myself. My Okinawa Karate friend used this format of sparring before.

I know it's not perfect. But it's better than nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

[Dragonzbane76]

i hold back on the older gents of course, I have my other partners whom like to go hard.

But on the same note, i'm not light either. Put gloves on and let them know who is knocking at the door. I understand some are there to get other benifits, but the truth is we are doing a contact activity. It comes with the territory, your going to get hit. working with people whom just want to get certain aspects is hard, and i see most only staying for a short amount of time. In the end it's a young mans game for the full on. I don't down people whom want those aspects, some are veterans that have done the tour and can't let it go. I understand that. Some are curious but have lives that can't have them going around beat up all the time. understand that. But most that stick with it come to appreciate the batterings one takes and discipline one poors into it. It's a strange thing to be sure, going to a place at most times and take a beat down and keep coming back. ;)

[-N-]

What do you guys think about this kind of sparring that you let your full force punch to go through "next to" your opponent's head. I have never tried this kind of format myself. My Okinawa Karate friend used this format of sparring before.

I know it's not perfect. But it's better than nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

It's a way to train people to commit and close on the other person. If you can't strike past your opponent's head at least elbow deep, you are too far away.

You see that happen with light contact point style sparring. A lot of times it turns into long range flinchy slap fighting and playing tag.

[Hardwork108]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

Speaking from my perspective, our lineage of Wing Chun teaches grab and seizing and we practice it through our kum-la (Chin-na) chi sao, which in the beginning is trained separately and then combined with striking chi sao and practiced in a complete manner.

I believe that a Wing Chun curriculum that does not delve deeply into the Chin-na territory is incomplete. The same is probably true for most, if not all, other kung fu styles.


PS. That Wing Chun chi-sao looked weird! :eek:

[bawang]

learn catch wrestling, then tell people its combat tai chi. problem solved.

[lance]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

YouKnowWho , even in taiji push hands and WC sticky hands , taiji push hands , with the hand that you ' re doing push hands with , you just turn your hand in a way that you can release the grab off of you . Sticky hands if the partner grabs you , can still use the other hand to strike the partners grabbing hand off of your hand and continue to trap the partners hands and cloe in on him .

Even when the opponent grabs certain parts of your body like it ' s mentioned on this topic post , you can strike him in any part of the body , as a way of releasing the opponents' grab off of you .

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho , even in taiji push hands and WC sticky hands , taiji push hands , with the hand that you ' re doing push hands with , you just turn your hand in a way that you can release the grab off of you . Sticky hands if the partner grabs you , can still use the other hand to strike the partners grabbing hand off of your hand and continue to trap the partners hands and cloe in on him .

Even when the opponent grabs certain parts of your body like it ' s mentioned on this topic post , you can strike him in any part of the body , as a way of releasing the opponents' grab off of you .
Of course there are many ways to counter grab, if you train how to do it, you will have that skill. I just don't believe those can be developed without training. Certain grab that's very difficult to defense and counter. One example is when you grab your opponent's arm and move toward his side door (the blind spot), your opponent's back arm will be jamed by his leading arm (grabbed by you). This will force him to yield to (or resist against) your force. That will give you something to work with.

The advantage of grab is the moment that your opponent tries to response to it, he is already one step behind you. You force your opponent to play your grappling game instead of his striking game.

Taiji guys do train grip. Not sure if WC guys use this training tool or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_89rO_F4Zw

[Hardwork108]

Taiji guys do train grip. Not sure if WC guys use this training tool or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_89rO_F4Zw

In the Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, the Tiger element is manifests itself further down the training curriculum where clawing techniques that come together with the chin-na skills make an appearance. For the clawing techniques to be effective the grip is trained.

[Lee Chiang Po]

In the Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, the Tiger element is manifests itself further down the training curriculum where clawing techniques that come together with the chin-na skills make an appearance. For the clawing techniques to be effective the grip is trained.

In my Hung Fa Wing Chun we call it The Dragon. It can inflict such pain as to render an opponent completely helpless. It is used to grab the cheeks, lips, other extremities, spare tire, other tender places on the body. You should see what chaos a lip grab can create. Years ago I developed my grip and wrists by winding up heavy steel weights on a rope around a broom handle stick. I would also use rubber balls. I would not just squeeze them, but would roll them up with the last 3 fingers. That and sand box training.

[Dragonzbane76]

you can talk all day about grip or tiger claw, but in the end positioning is the key. if positioning is not in line then those things are a fore gone conclusion. working clinch or ground domination towards structure is key. If you do not have that all else is useless. Not working towards domination or leverage control will get your a$$ into submition territory or worse.

[YouKnowWho]

You also have to be handy with your leg too.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kDdDKDwvx40/Tn51xqgiiWI/AAAAAAAAFDI/8vj4ZwdZtQ8/s1600/1.gif

[Hardwork108]

you can talk all day about grip or tiger claw, but in the end positioning is the key. if positioning is not in line then those things are a fore gone conclusion. working clinch or ground domination towards structure is key. If you do not have that all else is useless. Not working towards domination or leverage control will get your a$$ into submition territory or worse.

I believe that you need to do more research into the Tiger and/or Dragon Clawing techniques.........

[Dragonzbane76]

i say the same back at you for ground work.

[Hardwork108]

i say the same back at you for ground work.

And you would probably be right, but the subject matter of this thread is about "Grab" and NOT ground work. The "Tiger Claw" grabs fall into this category.

The subject of "Ground Work" which the non-kung fu practicing MMA-ists of this forum seem to insist on introducing in every thread is for another discussion.

[YouKnowWho]

Just to keep this discussion continue. What will you react to the following situation?

- Your opponent grabs on your wrist.
- He then "grabs" on your upper arm.
- He starts to run toward your side door and behind you.
- Your right arm is controlled by him.
- Your left arm can't reach him.
- You are forced to spin so you can't kick him with your leg.
- ...

Please notice that if you are a "striker", you may just be forced to play your opponent's "grappling" game that you may not be familiar with. This is why I have always believed that offense is better than defense. When you let your opponent to attack you, he may just lead you into an area that you are not familiar with and that will be your dis-advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiMIO62cgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGR9LtfR5cs

[-N-]

Just to keep this discussion continue. What will you react to the following situation?

- Your opponent grabs on your wrist.

1st mistake right there. Should already be attacking you by now. Not letting you grab the wrist, then the arm, then get pulled off balance while resisting.

Actually, in the video, the first mistake was to allow you to kick and jam his knee. He should have slipped his knee past your kick and close into attack you. One way could have been to kick your kick to redirect and unbalance you as he closes in.

But for the sake of discussion, he could let you grab, then close in faster than you are trying to control him. Then use front or back shoulder body strike to hit you while in body contact range. Then grab and suplex.

[-N-]

In both videos, your student is resisting and trying to keep his distance. Instead, he needs to get in as quickly as possible.

[Fa Xing]

The moment you move towards me, I'm hitting, and if it's in the str33t I'm going for your eyes, maybe throat, and probably groin.

[YouKnowWho]

The moment you move towards me, I'm hitting,

In both clips, the opponent didn't attack. If he did, the 1st wrist grip is really a longfist Gai Shou, mantis Lou Shou, WC Pak Shou, or SC cover hand. It can be used to block/deflect the incoming attack. The 2nd upper arm grab can only be done after the 1st block is successful. In other words, the opponent's punch is already under the consideration. You have to safely pass your opponent's kicking range, then safely pass his punching range, otherwise the grab can never happen.

If we assume that grab is possible, we have to assume that our opponent has already passed our kicking range, passed our punching range, and enter our clinching range.

I agree that the best counters is not to let your opponent to enter your kicking range or punching range. If you can do that, none of your opponent's moves will work on you.

[Dragonzbane76]

"Grab" and NOT ground work.
maybe i should have been more specific with my reply... not ground work in particular, but clinch which falls into the grappling realm.

my statement still stands about positioning being more important than trying to "probe" someone or rake them with a "claw" but everyone believes what they will. All I can say is good luck with your tiger claw while being slammed on your head or choked out.

clinch has the same schemes that ground has.

[YouKnowWho]

clinch has the same schemes that ground has.
If the purpose of your grab is to pull your opponent's head into your head punch, your grab may not have anything to do with clinch or ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

If the purpose of your grab is to get into clinch, the purpose of your clinch is to take your opponent down. The purpose of taking your opponent down may have more than one purpose. After you have taken your opponent down, you can

1. take off and run like hell - you want to maintain your mobility.
2. kick/step on his head while he is down - you want his head to fall next to your foot.
3. play your favor ground game - you want to be in dominate position.

IMO, your ground game after clinch may not always be 100%.

[Dragonzbane76]

youknowwho...

of course situation dictates what you should do as with anything.


IMO, your ground game after clinch may not always be 100%
nothing is 100% when speaking of fighting which i'm sure you know. I play to my stren. which is grappling and submittion as anyone would do. I don't state that unorthodox techs. can't change the game, but being in control/domination certainly can't hurt and does put you in the command chair, were you have more options. Like i said everyone to there own.

[-N-]

If we assume that grab is possible, we have to assume that our opponent has already passed our kicking range, passed our punching range, and enter our clinching range.

He can do like @1:00 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiaVWbBlA6k

Or @1:49 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47dn0P31BBw&feature=related

[Lee Chiang Po]

you can talk all day about grip or tiger claw, but in the end positioning is the key. if positioning is not in line then those things are a fore gone conclusion. working clinch or ground domination towards structure is key. If you do not have that all else is useless. Not working towards domination or leverage control will get your a$$ into submition territory or worse.

Oh, I was mistakenly thinking we were talking about gung fu. Seems we are actually talking about mma and ring fighting. Submission? only in the ring. domination on the ground? only in the ring. In a real fight someone can submit and no sooner than you let him up he is all over you again. You hurt him so he can't fight any more. That is how you do it. And you never let yourself get taken to the ground. Not unless you have a bunch of your own buds standing there to keep the dogs off your back. I think I will go over to the MMA forum so we can talk gung fu.

[Hardwork108]

maybe i should have been more specific with my reply... not ground work in particular, but clinch which falls into the grappling realm.
There is stand up grappling and ground grappling. The claw techniques can be applied in stand up situations and many times they are all about damaging the opponent at the point of application.


my statement still stands about positioning being more important than trying to "probe" someone or rake them with a "claw" but everyone believes what they will. All I can say is good luck with your tiger claw while being slammed on your head or choked out.

clinch has the same schemes that ground has.

You need positioning for striking techniques as well grappling, and anything in between. That is given!

[Dragonzbane76]

Oh, I was mistakenly thinking we were talking about gung fu. Seems we are actually talking about mma and ring fighting. Submission? only in the ring. domination on the ground? only in the ring. In a real fight someone can submit and no sooner than you let him up he is all over you again. You hurt him so he can't fight any more. That is how you do it. And you never let yourself get taken to the ground. Not unless you have a bunch of your own buds standing there to keep the dogs off your back. I think I will go over to the MMA forum so we can talk gung fu.

I was mistaken we were talking about common sense. So please indulge with some lunacy you are speaking of.

Who said anything about submission only in the ring. I was talking as a whole, sorry you seem to take everything as a personal front towards your "precious" KF.

I will state this again we are talking about the "grab" or clinch. I stated it to youknowho, situation dictates what you should do. I never would advocate anyone in an environment of unknown outcomes to take someone down. But here's the kicker, it happens whether you want it to or not, sometimes you end on the ground.

I think you should go over to an MMA forum and learn common sense.

maybe i should have been more clear on the term submission. A choke can be considered a submission I don't see anyone getting back up real fast after they have blacked out after one. But hey, maybe I should have been more clear on that, hell they don't call Jiu jitsu the art of submission for nothing but hell what would they know about ground work or clinch work. :rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

There is stand up grappling and ground grappling. The claw techniques can be applied in stand up situations and many times they are all about damaging the opponent at the point of application.

I never count out anything, but looking at it objectively, its lower percentage techs. Just not my cup of tea, each to there own.


You need positioning for striking techniques as well grappling, and anything in between. That is given!

agree, was not trying to down play any techs. just stating that you need positioning to achieve whatever goal you are looking for. I'll not drone on about the position I hold for stated techs.

[YouKnowWho]

its lower percentage techs.

If you throw a matchbox in the air and strike it, it will fly away. If you put a matchbox on the ground, you can smash it without effort.

The stand up game always have lower percentage techs than the ground game. But the stand up game has the "mobility" advantage that the ground game doesn't have. If you can take your opponent down and still maintain your own mobility, you will have advantage from both world.

[bawang]

i have found that doing squats greatly improved my anti grabbling ability

[Dragonzbane76]

The stand up game always have lower percentage techs than the ground game. But the stand up game has the "mobility" advantage that the ground game doesn't have. If you can take your opponent down and still maintain your own mobility, you will have advantage from both world


Agree thats why i stated positioning as paramount.

[Frost]

If the purpose of your grab is to pull your opponent's head into your head punch, your grab may not have anything to do with clinch or ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

If the purpose of your grab is to get into clinch, the purpose of your clinch is to take your opponent down. The purpose of taking your opponent down may have more than one purpose. After you have taken your opponent down, you can

1. take off and run like hell - you want to maintain your mobility.
2. kick/step on his head while he is down - you want his head to fall next to your foot.
3. play your favor ground game - you want to be in dominate position.

IMO, your ground game after clinch may not always be 100%.

if you grab to hit your opponent you are by definition clinching with him, not all clinching is about throwing, sometimes you simply want to control to hit him without letting him hit you

As for the other arguements on here, grabing hard with a claw might hurt someone, but pain thresholds are a funny thing and without seeking dominante position (be it on the feet or on the ground) with the grab you might end up eating a few shots, regardless of how strong your grab is

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would also advise people that grappling pretty much encompasses any kind of grab, control, lock technique. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. If I have a mantis grip on my opponent's head, or plum if you prefer to call it that;), I can control my opponent and where he goes. Where the head goes, the body will follow.

Now if my grip is strong and using my hooks as well as my forearms on their body to "move", them, I can use one hand to hook, control, and move and one hand to strike, claw, probe, whatever the hell you want to call it. I'm not even taking into account knees, low kicks, reeps and sweeeps. Now the point of this is quite simple. It is much easier to hit and damage your opponent when you have control of him, his body, and his movement.

People like to spout off about claws, spearhands, serpent strikes, ect. and no one is arguing that these cannot be effective. But trying to apply these techniques to a moving, parrying opponent is much harder than to do it to a controlled opponent whom you dictate their movement. That is essentially what grappling is.

[RWilson]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm4355yk5qI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

What is the point? Deal with the attack.

[Ray Pina]

Most of these problems are easily solved by well organized training. And the percent of live training depends on what you're training and with whom. Most BJJ gyms I've trained at all have their own approach or emphasis but the structure is always the same: technical warm up/or specific strength/cardio warm up, technical training, free play. Its very rare to end a class without live play. And even in those rare cases, people always roll free after class.... it's the nature of the sport. You want to roll with someone.


Age, size and even injuries don't have to be a factor for live play.

Put an experienced guy on his back and don't allow him to use his hands. He can only sweep and maintain guard against newbies, oldies. It is not rare to tone down a roll so a lesser player can train some moves while you just transfer positions.

One guy can only jam, clinch and take down while a newbie can strike.

Take down drills where the man standing stays in.... this is fun, live training that is relatively painless, though tiring.

Guard passing drills: If swept, you're out. If passed, you're out. Rotate class line.

It's too easy to come up with excuses not to play live. Its a coaches/teacher's responsibility to create a live, fun learning environment.

[Ray Pina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

That was very funny.

... a good breeze could push those two.

Neither of those people understand structure. And all of these videos only show sticking hand and pushing hand..... none of them show hitting hand.

You touch. You read. You open so you can hit.

Who follows the other and/or redirects away? There's no time!!!

Touch. Read. Open. Hit..... small angle to wedge in hit.

[Fa Xing]

I agree that the best counters is not to let your opponent to enter your kicking range or punching range. If you can do that, none of your opponent's moves will work on you.

Well, here's thing, if you are moving towards me with a kick like that to close the distance, I will probably side step and kick myself; or meet you head with a stop kick and hand combination; or just not let you get close. These are things that I have trained with resisting opponents before, many times.

That being said, we need to clarify what the situation is: a street fight where one is defending oneself or others; or is this some sort of match between friends.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was mistaken we were talking about common sense. So please indulge with some lunacy you are speaking of.

Who said anything about submission only in the ring. I was talking as a whole, sorry you seem to take everything as a personal front towards your "precious" KF.

I will state this again we are talking about the "grab" or clinch. I stated it to youknowho, situation dictates what you should do. I never would advocate anyone in an environment of unknown outcomes to take someone down. But here's the kicker, it happens whether you want it to or not, sometimes you end on the ground.

I think you should go over to an MMA forum and learn common sense.

maybe i should have been more clear on the term submission. A choke can be considered a submission I don't see anyone getting back up real fast after they have blacked out after one. But hey, maybe I should have been more clear on that, hell they don't call Jiu jitsu the art of submission for nothing but hell what would they know about ground work or clinch work. :rolleyes:

I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers. But I do not consider it common sense to use submissions unless there is a referee there to stop the fight. I have had a fair number of guys say that they were done only to try again. The only way to stop that is to injure them to the point that they simply can't. I will admit that I have been taken to the ground a time or three, but not usually by one man, and that was his mistake, not mine. The good thing about the grab is that you do take control if you use it. And the claw can be used from any sort of situation, even if you are in a bad one. It can have devestating results.
Trained fighters will fight the way they are trained. Simple. Wrestlers are taught a particular way of fighting. Most all forms of fighting are like that. The wrestler will try to get position on his opponent so that he can pound him or choke him or otherwise submit him. He is not concerned with certain aspects of other forms of fighting like gung fu. He likely has no idea that it exists until someone springs it on him. And I am here to tell you that there is no man alive that can ignore the pain.
I went to the MMA forum and there were only guys talking gung fu there. All the MMA dudes are over on the kung fu forums, mostly the Wing Chun forum. And as for jiujitsu, I don't even call BJJ jiujitsu. I have black belts in jap jiujitsu, and I know about submissions and such, but I also know that in a real fight you are just asking for trouble trying to submit someone on the street.

[Dragonzbane76]

ruffling is not a concern... its a forum people are suppose to make others think.


But I do not consider it common sense to use submissions unless there is a referee there to stop the fight. I have had a fair number of guys say that they were done only to try again. The only way to stop that is to injure them to the point that they simply can't. I will admit that I have been taken to the ground a time or three, but not usually by one man, and that was his mistake, not mine.
As I stated above situation dictates what to use. Subs or chokes or any of the above is not just for subduing, they are breaks, and complete blackouts in the instance of exertion. No you do not want to go to the ground in an environment where there are to many veriables. You stay on your feet as long as you can and get out. But people tend to overlook one glaring thing. Sometimes you cannot maintain upright. so you spend all your time learning to strike and completely ingnore the ground or clinch and end up in very bad trouble. I teach my students not just ground but how to work the ground and get to your feet after you have been blindsided. you work all the ranges, you work till you understand them and what can be used in what situation and what cannot.

The good thing about the grab is that you do take control if you use it.
agree if you know how the clinch works.


And I am here to tell you that there is no man alive that can ignore the pain. I've seen guys with the arm broke in an arm bar get up and keep fighting, pain is not ignorable, but it can be tolerated to a point. threshholds for people are different. adrenaline is a hell of a thing.

I'm not turning this into an MMA thing, it's common sense in my book. someone said something once on here that i liked, "we all speak the same language just the terminology is different." I think that is where we loss communication.

[YouKnowWho]

But I do not consider it common sense to use submissions unless there is a referee there to stop the fight.

It can be a pretty good common sense IMO.

I was walking on the street with my students in Hawaii (I brought my US SC team to compete in Taiwan by passing Hawaii back in 1984). One guy across the street tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl was screaming but nobody did anything. One of my female students said, "Are you guys going to do something about this?" I had no choice but to walk across the street and gave that guy a head lock. He let the girl go and the girl took off. He then screemed, "Please! Please don't kill me." I let go my head lock, he took off to the other direction. I stood in the middle of the street and felt I was the criminal myself. I didn't want to punch/kick him under the broad daylight in the middle of a busy street. What else could I do besides using my favor "head lock" on him (stand up submissions)?

[Frost]

I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers. But I do not consider it common sense to use submissions unless there is a referee there to stop the fight. I have had a fair number of guys say that they were done only to try again. The only way to stop that is to injure them to the point that they simply can't. I will admit that I have been taken to the ground a time or three, but not usually by one man, and that was his mistake, not mine. The good thing about the grab is that you do take control if you use it. And the claw can be used from any sort of situation, even if you are in a bad one. It can have devestating results.
Trained fighters will fight the way they are trained. Simple. Wrestlers are taught a particular way of fighting. Most all forms of fighting are like that. The wrestler will try to get position on his opponent so that he can pound him or choke him or otherwise submit him. He is not concerned with certain aspects of other forms of fighting like gung fu. He likely has no idea that it exists until someone springs it on him. And I am here to tell you that there is no man alive that can ignore the pain.
I went to the MMA forum and there were only guys talking gung fu there. All the MMA dudes are over on the kung fu forums, mostly the Wing Chun forum. And as for jiujitsu, I don't even call BJJ jiujitsu. I have black belts in jap jiujitsu, and I know about submissions and such, but I also know that in a real fight you are just asking for trouble trying to submit someone on the street.

It is self evident from your posts that you don’t know much about BJJ or grappling (most grapplers don’t consider JJJ to be grappling as we see it)

And I have a question if submissions are useless because once you let go the opponent simply starts back on you (and this screams ignorance about what submissions are, submissions are breaks and chokes which are stopped by your opponent tapping, if you ignore the tap you snap something or they go for a nap) then why are your grabs any better??? because as soon as you let go wont they do exactly what you are talking about with the subs are start back in on you after all the grab isn’t life threatening is it?

As for no man alive being able to ignore the pain sorry but LMAO, one of my good friends dislocated his knee in a fight (it popped out, then popped back in a few seconds later) he still finished the round came out for the next one and beat the guy so hard he gave up ive seen guys finish with busted ribs, broken hands h*ll there’s a well known grappler who finished a match with a broken arm and still one ………..try grabbing one of the aboves lips ot body fat and see what they do to you, especially if you are in an inferior position………….

[Ray Pina]

Awesome post...............

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_UMdy3r4&feature=related

Medical science has a cure for that now.