Wing Chun Fighting - No Bridge No sensitivity!

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun is About Controlling the Bridge why when i see people spar with wing chun they look just like kick boxers. With no Bridge, No bong sau, No Tan Sau, No Pak Sau. Not even one technique from chi sau or mook yan jong is used!



Since Wing Chun is about controlling the bridge.

Why do people who spar with wing chun don't use the bridge nor do they follow the concepts of wing chun by intercepting attacks and redirecting them.



For instance

-Chi Sau teaches you how to feel your opponents bridge for changes so you can intercept or block his attacks. It also teaches you how redirect his force and or control or nullify his bridge

-The wooden man teaches you how to kick and bridge and strike and bridge while using your footwork to either generate power or flank your opponent to strike from a safer posistion.

-San Shou or two man drills teaches you how defend and attack simultaneously either offensively and defensively. Such is pak da, tan da, bil da, jut da and partner punching.


-Chi Gerk Teaches you how to kick when you have contact with your opponent while using your senstivity to feel for his changes


CHECK THIS VIDEO CLIP OUT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

I love the aggression, There are some techniques like the neck grab but they are using it in more of Muay Thai fashion. I do not see the skills taught in the Mook Yan Jong, Chi Sau, Chi Gerk or two man drills. Why when I see Wing Chun Sparring its mostly out side fighting and not inside or inclose fighting like the art was design for?

Its very hard to transition from training drills to actual san da with wing chun if you never practice sparring trying to apply the basic techniques.

Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?

[k gledhill]

Wing Chun is About Controlling the Bridge why when i see people spar with wing chun they look just like kick boxers. With no Bridge, No bong sau, No Tan Sau, No Pak Sau. Not even one technique from chi sau or mook yan jong is used!



Since Wing Chun is about controlling the bridge.

Why do people who spar with wing chun don't use the bridge nor do they follow the concepts of wing chun by intercepting attacks and redirecting them.



For instance

-Chi Sau teaches you how to feel your opponents bridge for changes so you can intercept or block his attacks. It also teaches you how redirect his force and or control or nullify his bridge

-The wooden man teaches you how to kick and bridge and strike and bridge while using your footwork to either generate power or flank your opponent to strike from a safer posistion.

-San Shou or two man drills teaches you how defend and attack simultaneously either offensively and defensively. Such is pak da, tan da, bil da, jut da and partner punching.


-Chi Gerk Teaches you how to kick when you have contact with your opponent while using your senstivity to feel for his changes


CHECK THIS VIDEO CLIP OUT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

I love the aggression, There are some techniques like the neck grab but they are using it in more of Muay Thai fashion. I do not see the skills taught in the Mook Yan Jong, Chi Sau, Chi Gerk or two man drills. Why when I see Wing Chun Sparring its mostly out side fighting and not inside or inclose fighting like the art was design for?

Its very hard to transition from training drills to actual san da with wing chun if you never practice sparring trying to apply the basic techniques.

Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?

We dont do chi sao to control or feel, why vt done with feeling and wrong ideas turns into kickboxing.

[YouKnowWho]

If you just want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you are by passing the "bridge building". You may hit your opponent or you may miss your punch. Even if you may hit your opponent, since your opponent is a moving object, his backward footwork may cancel out most of your force. If you always want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you will always fight like a kickboxer.

You will need some set up to build a bridge. After you make a contact, you can then pull youself into your opponent and create a "head on collusion". It's usually 2 steps or even 3 steps process. The nice thing about this approach is your bridge can restrict your opponent from moving back. That will make your punch much more powerful.

The following clip is from the mantis system. But the bridging concept is the same.

- contact (Tang Shou),
- pull (Pai Shou or Fu Shou),
- punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

The problem is when you have 16 oz boxing gloves on, it will be difficult for you to build bridge like this, you will then fight like a kickboxer.

When you remove a tiger's teeth and claw, that tiger will fight like a bull.

[Yoshiyahu]

We dont do chi sao to control or feel, why vt done with feeling and wrong ideas turns into kickboxing.

Why do you do chi sau?

So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?

[grasshopper 2.0]

Chi sao, etc should only help you strike better. Why bong sao when you can hit the guy? Idnyoure looking to use all those controling techniques you're already in trouble. Hitting is bridging and is priority 1. Rest is just to help train your body to do that.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Why do you do chi sau?

So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?

Chi sao is a simple 2 man drill. It is too often played as a game and eventually people expect that it does more than it really does. When you hear about full contact Wing Chun fights it is really a chi sao match. It is only possible to do it with another Wing Chun man that is of equal skill to you. If you were to match up on the street with the average person you would not chi sao with him. He would not know how in the first place. So your chi sao skills would be useless.
Wing chun is not an attack system as such, but it can be if done correctly. You let your opponent attack you, then you take the bridge and control him as you strike or kick. In order to attack him you faint an attack and when he tries to defend you then take control and counter attack him. Never attack a fortified position, which is what you have when you attack the other person. You force him to do that. If he refuses, then you don't have to fight.

[Robinhood]

It depends on the level of user, most wing chin and most arts are only low level students and have to rely on speed and power to deal with there opponent and do not have the skill level to use the bridge to their advantage.

Learning defense skill takes 5 to 10 times longer to develop than a offense skill, most sparring is just 2 offense guys trying to get there first.

Plus most styles have lost the defensive skills by dilution over the years and only have the offense left to teach, its sad but that what happens to most things that expand to quickly for different reasons, mostly greed of financial gains.

Most school are set up for financial gains and ego boosting reasons and are usually low level schools teaching only physical skills.

[YouKnowWho]

Learning defense skill takes 5 to 10 times longer to develop than a offense skill, most sparring is just 2 offense guys trying to get there first.
If you wait for your opponent to attack you so you can play defense and counter, you may be forced to play your opponent's game. If you attack, you can force your opponent to play your game instead of his. IMO, it's always better to force your opponent to play your favor game (whatever that may be).

When your opponent's fist is right infront of your face, your opponent has brought the fight into your territory. When your fist is infront of your opponent's face, you have brought the fight into your opponent's territiory. If you fight there then you don't have to fight here. Have we seen a lot of that going on in today's warfare?

[Fa Xing]

My goal is to hit some one when I'm sparring or fighting. If end up using more Wing Chun-like techniques, it's because I was in the right position to get it.

You can't think of fighting like applications practice, it's not, those are drills that have to transfer. However, you can't expect a 100% transfer, it doesn't work like that.

It works similar to the strength and conditioning world: when training athletes to be stronger, faster, and more powerful in their sport; but no one is expecting a complete transfer no matter how sport-specific it gets. You can only move in that direction.

[YouKnowWho]

My goal is to hit some one when I'm sparring or fighting. After you have knocked down your opponent under your feet, you can post:

- Er Zi Qian Yang Ma on his dead body to prove that you are a WC master.
- White crane flap wings on his dead body to prove that you are a Taiji master.
- Santi stance on his dead body to prove that you are a XingYi master.
- Circle walking around his dead body to prove that you are a Bagua master.

A: What's your style?
B: I'll show you what my style is after I have beaten the sh!t out of you.

[Fa Xing]

After you have knocked down your opponent under your feet, you can post:

- Er Zi Qian Yang Ma on his dead body to prove that you are a WC master.
- White crane flap wings on his dead body to prove that you are a Taiji master.
- Santi stance on his dead body to prove that you are a XingYi master.
- Circle walking around his dead body to prove that you are a Bagua master.

A: What's your style?
B: I'll show you what my style is after I have beaten the sh!t out of you.

This made me smile.

[Graham H]

Chi sao is a simple 2 man drill. It is too often played as a game and eventually people expect that it does more than it really does.

That is true in many WC schools.


When you hear about full contact Wing Chun fights it is really a chi sao match.

You mean it is NOT a chi sau match!;)


It is only possible to do it with another Wing Chun man that is of equal skill to you.

Chi Sau can be unproductive even if it is WC training with WC because we don't all share the same idea as to what this drill improves. I cannot practice chi sau with people outside of my lineage. Only sparring. The shapes, structures and forces exchanged vary massively in most cases.


If you were to match up on the street with the average person you would not chi sao with him. He would not know how in the first place. So your chi sao skills would be useless.

I agree to a certain extent but if you think that your chi skills will be useless then why even practice. Chi Sau is a vital component and a pre-cursor to sparring.


Wing chun is not an attack system as such, but it can be if done correctly.

Mine Ving Tsun is.


You let your opponent attack you, then you take the bridge and control him as you strike or kick.

That idea is not a good way of thinking for fighting.......IMO


In order to attack him you faint an attack and when he tries to defend you then take control and counter attack him.

I kind of agree with that but I'm hoping you mean take control of the situation (or try) and not take control of arms.


Never attack a fortified position, which is what you have when you attack the other person. You force him to do that. If he refuses, then you don't have to fight.

The best time to attack is before you get attacked. Unfortuneately that isnt always possible and how you react depends on many factors. I don't think is something that should be over analysed on a forum.

G

[Wayfaring]

If you just want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you are by passing the "bridge building". You may hit your opponent or you may miss your punch. Even if you may hit your opponent, since your opponent is a moving object, his backward footwork may cancel out most of your force. If you always want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you will always fight like a kickboxer.

This is a common misperception I see with people who start in chi sau range and with bridge contact as a starting point all the time. The main WCK idea is to dominate the centerline with forward intent and strikes. IF there is a bridge, you sink it (chum kiu). If not, pursue and destroy. You don't wait to build bridge contact first. That's putting you on defense automatically.



The problem is when you have 16 oz boxing gloves on, it will be difficult for you to build bridge like this, you will then fight like a kickboxer.

When you remove a tiger's teeth and claw, that tiger will fight like a bull.

The purpose of 16 oz gloves is to protect the hands and targets while sparring at more full contact. There SHOULD NOT be a significant difference to your WCK - it should adapt to any of those environments. If it doesn't, then you can either resort to a lot of tiger analogies and be left with a lot of bull, or you can genuinely build your skill level so it scales properly.

[Robinhood]

If you wait for your opponent to attack you so you can play defense and counter, you may be forced to play your opponent's game. If you attack, you can force your opponent to play your game instead of his. IMO, it's always better to force your opponent to play your favor game (whatever that may be).

When your opponent's fist is right infront of your face, your opponent has brought the fight into your territory. When your fist is infront of your opponent's face, you have brought the fight into your opponent's territiory. If you fight there then you don't have to fight here. Have we seen a lot of that going on in today's warfare?

That works if you are better than your opponent, but if he is equal or better, you can be in trouble, if you are at a high skill level.

Once you commit movement that movement can be used against you, but for people with only offensive skill there is not much to worry about.

[Lee Chiang Po]

That is true in many WC schools.



You mean it is NOT a chi sau match!;)



Chi Sau can be unproductive even if it is WC training with WC because we don't all share the same idea as to what this drill improves. I cannot practice chi sau with people outside of my lineage. Only sparring. The shapes, structures and forces exchanged vary massively in most cases.

You can't practice chi sao outside Wing Chun either. In my life I have been involved in probably around 200 fights. Not one time did I come up on a Wing Chun fighter. Some had a bit of karate, some judo, some wrestling, lots of boxing, and just wind mill swingers, but no WC fighters. Not even a short time Wing chun man. It develops your skills of applying tan, pac, bong, fook, and whatever, but it does not develop the so called sensitivity people speak of. It might apply if everyone was a wing chun fighter, but they aren't.

I agree to a certain extent but if you think that your chi skills will be useless then why even practice. Chi Sau is a vital component and a pre-cursor to sparring.

I don't. When I was real young and training I did chi sao, but I was told early on not to let it take over what I do. That it would indeed become a game and cripple my ability to fight.



I kind of agree with that but I'm hoping you mean take control of the situation (or try) and not take control of arms.

The arms are what have the fists on the end of them. They hit you with them. You have to control the arms, elbows or whatever so that they can not hit you. You also have to worry about the feet, but most people can not kick when you get in under them. They require room to do that and some can not even hit you if you are in close to them. I have been very successful in controling a person by taking control of the arms.

The best time to attack is before you get attacked. Unfortuneately that isnt always possible and how you react depends on many factors. I don't think is something that should be over analysed on a forum.

G

I have actually walked up to people with no warning and put them down and out. It works better then announcing your intentions. The guy might just make it a little more difficult if you do that. But if a person squares off he is aware of your intentions most likely, and getting in past his defense might be a bit dangerous. A lucky punch can put you flat of your back. I prefer to let him try to breach my defense instead. I might not be able to take control of him, but I will keep working until I do. If I initiate the first blow it is usually with his full expectance, and he will usually do something very predictable by trying to block it, giving you his arm so that you can then start jerking him around by it. The only way I know of controling a mans striking ability is to control his arms. If he is doing chi sao stuff it would be simple, but he will likely just jump back and start dancing and come in windmilling, or even trying to do his best Mike Tyson immitation.

[imperialtaichi]

I don't focus on trading punches with an opponent (not saying that I don't hit him though!).

Mentally, I treat my opponent as cattle with sharp horns. I aim at staying away from his horns, capturing/controlling him then butchering the beast as quickly as possible.

[Dragonzbane76]

I have actually walked up to people with no warning and put them down and out. It works better then announcing your intentions.

in the justice system this is called assualt. But I get what you are saying, the person whom strikes first usually is the victor. ;)

I don't recommend just going up to someone and clocking them, legal implications and all. But again situations dictate many things.

[Graham H]

I have actually walked up to people with no warning and put them down and out. It works better then announcing your intentions. The guy might just make it a little more difficult if you do that. But if a person squares off he is aware of your intentions most likely, and getting in past his defense might be a bit dangerous. A lucky punch can put you flat of your back. I prefer to let him try to breach my defense instead. I might not be able to take control of him, but I will keep working until I do. If I initiate the first blow it is usually with his full expectance, and he will usually do something very predictable by trying to block it, giving you his arm so that you can then start jerking him around by it. The only way I know of controling a mans striking ability is to control his arms. If he is doing chi sao stuff it would be simple, but he will likely just jump back and start dancing and come in windmilling, or even trying to do his best Mike Tyson immitation.

You seem to know a lot about scrapping to an extent where you know what they are going to do or might do. Impressive. :rolleyes:

People that try to analyse street fights probably haven't had any. The whole "he might do this so I will do that" is BS......IMO

G

[RWilson]

It depends on the level of user, most wing chin and most arts are only low level students and have to rely on speed and power to deal with there opponent and do not have the skill level to use the bridge to their advantage.

Learning defense skill takes 5 to 10 times longer to develop than a offense skill, most sparring is just 2 offense guys trying to get there first.

Plus most styles have lost the defensive skills by dilution over the years and only have the offense left to teach, its sad but that what happens to most things that expand to quickly for different reasons, mostly greed of financial gains.

Most school are set up for financial gains and ego boosting reasons and are usually low level schools teaching only physical skills.

If you think you do not need speed or power you are in trouble. That is why a child cannot win a full contact kickboxing match with an adult... because he is too weak.

[trubblman]

Wing Chun is About Controlling the Bridge why when i see people spar with wing chun they look just like kick boxers. With no Bridge, No bong sau, No Tan Sau, No Pak Sau. Not even one technique from chi sau or mook yan jong is used!

I have noticed VT fighters look like kickboxers too. They use hit and run tactics: dashing in, throwing chain punches maybe in combination with a kick or two then rush out- in my opinion this is not VT. This is more akin to boxing or kickboxing.



Since Wing Chun is about controlling the bridge.
Why do people who spar with wing chun don't use the bridge nor do they follow the concepts of wing chun by intercepting attacks and redirecting them.


VT is about controlling the bridge. Personally I thought VT was about winning the fight. Controlling the bridge is a concept that VT and some other Chinese martial arts use. Long before VT there was fighting. Fighting is about defeating the opponent. VT is one way but despite what many VT practitioners say is not the most efficient. No single style is more efficient than another, it is how the fighter uses it.



Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?

Why dont you and your fellow students engage in friendly sparring matches out of school? Or spar with practitioners of other arts and see what works?

[Lee Chiang Po]

You seem to know a lot about scrapping to an extent where you know what they are going to do or might do. Impressive. :rolleyes:

People that try to analyse street fights probably haven't had any. The whole "he might do this so I will do that" is BS......IMO

G

Actually, this has been strictly from experience. I have never come up on anyone that has had any formal training so to speak. Maybe some karate, maybe some judo, mostly people have tried to box me. I did fight a mantis dude back a long time ago and beat the snot out of him. No one can know what the other fellow is going to do, but you can pretty much learn what to expect after a while. I have been surprised a few times, but not to any great extent. By far the majority have just started dancing about and jabbing like a boxer.
That is the reason I find chi sao to be a hinderance to actual fighting. It is a 2 man drill, and not really that. The day someone started trying to out chi sao his training partner it because a silly game.

[Graham H]

Actually, this has been strictly from experience. I have never come up on anyone that has had any formal training so to speak. Maybe some karate, maybe some judo, mostly people have tried to box me. I did fight a mantis dude back a long time ago and beat the snot out of him. No one can know what the other fellow is going to do, but you can pretty much learn what to expect after a while. I have been surprised a few times, but not to any great extent. By far the majority have just started dancing about and jabbing like a boxer.
That is the reason I find chi sao to be a hinderance to actual fighting. It is a 2 man drill, and not really that. The day someone started trying to out chi sao his training partner it because a silly game.

Ok, its good that you have that kind of experience. In my experience the biggest hurdle is not the exchange of blows but the fear and adrenaline rush that can sometimes make you feel very weak and not want to continue. Most street fights occur due the presence of drugs, in particualrly alchohol. Unless you are a little crazy in the head most people don't fight outside of competition just for the fun of it.

If Chi Sau is trained and understood correctly it shouldn't be a hinderance. It is a learning tool not a fighting tool although the skills that are improved in chi sau must cross over into sparring/fighting. The idea of chi sau is to remain free form contact and use the most simple punching route. It also teaches us that if our punch is blocked or deflected then we can find a new punching route in an instant. This allows one to mainting a constant attack (not chain punching) in which case your oppoents abilty to attack you back is restricted. My opinion is that chi sau can be an over indulgence and can actually detract from gaining any real fighting skills. Just look at that clip of the man and woman posted on another thread. They are sexy dancing with each other not fighting! :D The problem is that I bet that to them and their training partners/peers they think they are actually learning to fight.



GH

[Phil Redmond]

Cheun, lop/trap, da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

[k gledhill]

Cheun, lop/trap, da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

The M.Y. student used a bong to deflect the first lop n punch but his stance fell apart and the rest we see...

[trubblman]

Cheun, lop/trap, da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

From what I can see the lop sao was held too long. A more experienced opponent would have easily countered it with a huen sao or tan sao. The guy who was seized made the mistake of trying to struggle out by pulling away. The guy who was grabbed even though he managed to pull off the trap took too much time and appeared to use too much muscle.

[Graham H]

From what I can see the lop sao was held too long. A more experienced opponent would have easily countered it with a huen sao or tan sao. The guy who was seized made the mistake of trying to struggle out by pulling away. The guy who was grabbed even though he managed to pull off the trap took too much time and appeared to use too much muscle.

As much as I don't like that clip you think you can say what you or "a more experinced guy" would do in that situation from viewing it? I don't think so! Until you are stood in front of somebody nobody can say what they can or can't do!

G

[trubblman]

As much as I don't like that clip you think you can say what you or "a more experinced guy" would do in that situation from viewing it? I don't think so! Until you are stood in front of somebody nobody can say what they can or can't do!

G

I do it all the time. I just finished sparring yesterday where I did it ( using tan sau or huen sao to release a lop sao) at least 5 times in 1 hour. It was I and one of my friends I used to train with. He does TWC. So I know what I am talking about. To me breaking grabs is a fundamental VT skill. That's why there are huen sao's all over VT forms and VT emphasis on sensitivity, so as to escape from chin na, lop sau and other grappling type moves.

[LoneTiger108]

The day someone started trying to out chi sao his training partner it became a silly game.

Very very true :D And on this forum that is quite rare!

This is one of the reasons I refer to Chisau as an interactive exercise, or Doi Lien in Cantonese.

[Graham H]

I do it all the time. I just finished sparring yesterday where I did it ( using tan sau or huen sao to release a lop sao) at least 5 times in 1 hour. It was I and one of my friends I used to train with. He does TWC. So I know what I am talking about. To me breaking grabs is a fundamental VT skill. That's why there are huen sao's all over VT forms and VT emphasis on sensitivity, so as to escape from chin na, lop sau and other grappling type moves.

If you think the reason for there being so many huen sau's in the forms is for breaking wrist grabs then we practice two very different systems of Wing Chun so each to their own I guess.

G

[trubblman]

If you think the reason for there being so many huen sau's in the forms is for breaking wrist grabs then we practice two very different systems of Wing Chun so each to their own I guess.

G

You misunderstand. I didnt say that the only reason the huen saus are there is for wrist breaks. There is no one single application for a movement. There are many applications for a lot of movements IMO. The huen sau is very effective for breaking grabs, just as a tan sau is. And just because a tan sau is good for a wrist break does not mean that is the only thing the tan sau is good for.

Yes my friend does TWC and I may have some criticisms of TWC in general but I know this guy and some of the other TWC practitioners where I live are very good.

[Graham H]

You misunderstand. I didnt say that the only reason the huen saus are there is for wrist breaks. There is no one single application for a movement. There are many applications for a lot of movements IMO. The huen sau is very effective for breaking grabs, just as a tan sau is. And just because a tan sau is good for a wrist break does not mean that is the only thing the tan sau is good for.

Yes my friend does TWC and I may have some criticisms of TWC in general but I know this guy and some of the other TWC practitioners where I live are very good.

Well for me Tan Sau is a punch. I can't see Tan Sau being able to break from a wrist grab so you see the problem? I also wouldn't use Huen Sau for the same things either.



GH

[trubblman]

I can't see Tan Sau being able to break from a wrist grab so you see the problem?

GH

Very clearly. And for your edification a bong sau, tan sau and a huen sau can break a grab. I have heard a gum sau can also be used be used to break a grab but that's a behind the back grab. I would imagine it could do likewise even for a non behind the back grab but I have never seen it done that way.

[WC1277]

I don't think huen sau would be a very good one, unless you wan't to break your wrist, but you can use almost any movement that has a "cutting edge" to get out of a grab.

The whole idea of control and bridge building is an often misunderstood concept and IMO is anything but what 99% of the WC world promotes.

To have 'control' is in it's most basic applications is essentially to force the opponent to "lean on your wall" and you not lean on his. Think about it, you lean on a wall, your weight distribution, your entire body 'structure' is dependent on that wall holding you up. If you let your 'arm' go, you fall into the wall. You get hit. Good WC works very much the same way. Some could call this the "glass technique".

A simple exercise can demonstrate this in action. Stand in any position and have a buddy push you, slowly. Your goal is to push back at him at some point on his body that neutralizes his forward pressure. It can be anywhere, the arm(s) that's pushing you, his stomach, his right shoulder, you name it. But the goal is to find that 'sweet spot' where you can push back with as little effort as your index finger to neutralize his power. If done right, you're body will stay rooted, and his body will now feel "locked" so to speak. He's now leaning on your wall. For him to do anything, he will now have to un-lean on your wall. For you, that's your timing to hit him and you should quite easily feel the ease of that hit. And for him, he now has two steps to take, so it will be quite difficult for him to counter you.

So what is that in action? The 'sweet spot' in WC is your "cutting in" where you maximize the likelihood of someone "leaning"(i.e. Triangle towards center)..... Anytime contact is made, WC or not, there is a very short time period where a decision needs to be made on who will lean on who's wall. I'm talking micro-seconds here. The entire point of Chi Sao is to master that "grace period" along with your "cutting/triangle".

Think of it this way, say you deflect a punch with a bong sau but he doesn't turn off his power once that line of attack is covered by you. What happens? We've all felt it most likely.... he's 'leaning'. It took you effort(muscle(power)/"active") to move into a bong sau. But hopefully, all you're doing now, is just using enough muscular tension to just hold your arm in that shape(passive). The battle is between who turns off first. The triangle forces him to have to try to cut back to get to you, which makes it harder for him to turn off. He's trying to break through it even if for just a split-second longer. You 'cut', and unless he turns his power off, he's now 'leaning'. You have now beat him at the "grace period" and now the moment he tries to move off that wall is when he will fall into your hit and there is nothing he can do about it. This is what Ip Man meant when he said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him'. The Opponent will open himself up to you. You don't do it to him. All you do is create a wall for him to lean on over and over and over again! :) And if there is no contact, it's simple, you hit him!

So is it possible to get out of a grab with any cutting movement. Absolutely. WC is forward movement, right? Let someone grab your arm. Now immediately move into a tan sau while you step forward or even turn. If you didn't "force" your movement, you have just correctly 'jammed' them. Or in other words...... you have just successfully won the "grace period" and they're now leaning on your wall.....:)

[Buddha_Fist]

:confused: Too complicated theory.

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple! :D

[YouKnowWho]

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple! :D

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- When you try to use your left hand to punch on his face,
- he pulls your right arm toward your left (his right).
- your body will be pulled and spin to your left,
- Your left arm will be jamed by your own right arm, and
- your left hand won't be able to reach to his nose.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do this, he will deserve to be punched on his nose by your left hand.

There is "smart" grab and there is "stupid" grab. A "smart" grab requires:

- proper angle (use your leading arm to jam your back arm),
- shaking (give you a quick shacking to destroy your structure),
- double controls (one hand grabs on your wrist while the other hand grabs on your elbow),
- footwork (move toward your side door - blind spot).

[imperialtaichi]

:confused: Too complicated theory.

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple! :D

While I don't think it is as simple as that, I do think that we tend to over complicate things with theories and techniques. But hey, forums would be a very boring place if no one to talk sh!t. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I find it a bit strange that people have not studied huensau, because if you haven't trained your 'tiger mouth' (fuhao) of the hand you will not have experienced how easy it is to escape from grabs with ANY *seed, single handed ;)

*seed = bong, tan and fook

For those that apply strict rules to their seed, ie. tan = punch, or "bong HAS to be exactly this way" are totally missing the boat imho. I was taught that tansau is a striking concept, but to even think that striking means punching is a bit narrow minded :o

[CFT]

^^
Just to save people the effort of looking it up, the 'tiger mouth' (fu hou) is the web of skin between the thumb and index finger.

[LoneTiger108]

^^
Just to save people the effort of looking it up, the 'tiger mouth' (fu hou) is the web of skin between the thumb and index finger.

FWIW It's not exactly a web of skin, it's a specific muscle group of the hand that gets stronger through any weaponry or grip practise, but you're right about the positioning.

[k gledhill]

Why do you do chi sau?

So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?

Its not about feeling bridges, its being aware there isnt one ;) and if there is , wheres the water going ? do I follow it back ? do I let it flow past me without even worrying... do I let it come and spray wildy past me out of control.
In fighting we dont seek arms we hit the head and body, if the arms stop me I have a method to regain the goal using simple techniques.

lat sao chet chung ! a water fight , angle and move.

What does a partner present to you as he does chi-sao with you ? a pressure barrier that like new plumbing, gets pressure tested for leaks :D
The more pressure I put on a simple series of joints the more likely I will find a leak, when I do I help repair it.
I am not feeling the pipe and controlling the pipe, I am the water inside it as is my partner. We both try to improve our force of water pressure so upon release it goes at the center/head/body.
iow Where is the water aiming? ... my partner aims right back at me not at the pipe I aim back with ....leaks are more present than one might think ;)

If you use the nozzle tip of pipe itself to block your water aims in that direction too....if you treat the nozzle as a way to deflect with part of its base [elbow] you see a method that allows both aim and defense in one water jet.

Once the leaks are found and repaired we can add more pipe to another room, then test that and on until we have a simple pattern of angles and motion that flows randomly depending on what level plumber your facing :D

Wherever you put the pipe I come and test, you put pipe at an angle i see if its straight or not I have a line I use to check its alignment to me . if it deviates by 1 cm I can show you a leak :D you might try to fix it on the spot with a crude patch but I can show you that by maintaining the original simple alignment it is simpler and also prevents water from reaching you as you apply the crude block. If I deviate from the idea , I get wet too.

Some guys get cool nicknames like Machine , Terminator, I am the plumber I am here to test the integrity of your plumbing :D :D

WSL used an analogy of a simple water fight to describe the futility of trying to block water while standing in front waving arms like blocks...you might stop some but you will get wet unless you adopt another strategy.

[Buddha_Fist]

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- When you try to use your left hand to punch on his face,
- he pulls your right arm toward your left (his right).
- your body will be pulled and spin to your left,
- Your left arm will be jamed by your own right arm, and
- your left hand won't be able to reach to his nose.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do this, he will deserve to be punched on his nose by your left hand.

There is "smart" grab and there is "stupid" grab. A "smart" grab requires:

- proper angle (use your leading arm to jam your back arm),
- shaking (give you a quick shacking to destroy your structure),
- double controls (one hand grabs on your wrist while the other hand grabs on your elbow),
- footwork (move toward your side door - blind spot).

There are a zillion theoretical this-for-that scenarios that can be written about, and a lot is plausible in this fashion. The shocking thing however, is that Ving Tsun practitioners write a compendium of posts about how to solve the problem by chasing hands as opposed to considering first and foremost to go after the centerline with what the Ving Tsun practitioner should be proficient with, the punch (or chop or whatever striking attack you fancy).

If you have been grabbed, you already did a mistake for letting this happen. There are a zillion positions and ways in which you could be grabbed, so there is no point of discussing specific scenarios. First thing to consider for a Ving Tsun practitioner should be whether the way is open to strike instantaneously (Lat Sao Jik Chung) and explosively. If that is not possible, you may be in a bigger hole, and other actions have to be considered (Biu Jee should ring a bell at this stage).

Now, if you want proper grappling, you are way better off by learning BJJ or something along the lines.

[k gledhill]

There are a zillion theoretical this-for-that scenarios that can be written about, and a lot is plausible in this fashion. The shocking thing however, is that Ving Tsun practitioners write a compendium of posts about how to solve the problem by chasing hands as opposed to considering first and foremost to go after the centerline with what the Ving Tsun practitioner should be proficient with, the punch (or chop or whatever striking attack you fancy).

If you have been grabbed, you already did a mistake for letting this happen. There are a zillion positions and ways in which you could be grabbed, so there is no point of discussing specific scenarios. First thing to consider for a Ving Tsun practitioner should be whether the way is open to strike instantaneously (Lat Sao Jik Chung) and explosively. If that is not possible, you may be in a bigger hole, and other actions have to be considered (Biu Jee should ring a bell at this stage).

Now, if you want proper grappling, you are way better off by learning BJJ or something along the lines.

Good post .......

[Yoshiyahu]

VT is about controlling the bridge. Personally I thought VT was about winning the fight. Controlling the bridge is a concept that VT and some other Chinese martial arts use. Long before VT there was fighting. Fighting is about defeating the opponent. VT is one way but despite what many VT practitioners say is not the most efficient. No single style is more efficient than another, it is how the fighter uses it.



Why dont you and your fellow students engage in friendly sparring matches out of school? Or spar with practitioners of other arts and see what works?


I agree im always open to friendly sparring with people of other styles. Just recently I started meeting other WC guys in my area. So most of my life all i had contact with what was other styles. But thanks you are so right.


But let me asked you do you Practice Yong Chun?

Also WC is about seeking the bridge to control your opponent so you can hit him easily an he cant hit you. I can punch and kick all day long. But why just kick and punch when I have so many other weapons at my disposal.

WC RANGE STARTS

when your opponent enters your personal space or you enter his. This is evitable with an aggressive opponent. WC teaches us to be aggressive as well. Chi Sau, Chi Gerk, Gor Sau and San Shou teaches us to be comfortable inclose. But when your inclose an want to bang it out...you should do more than punch 1000 times an pray you land more blows?

Do you use Tan, Bong, Bil and Pak when you spar?

[EternalSpring]

Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?

There are ways of chi saoing that are very similar to sparring, some may even think it is sparring upon seeing it if they didn't know anything about Ving Tsun. A lot of questions concerning the application of chi sao training are brought up because people tend to think of "chum kiu" level chi sao'ing to be the ultimate definition of chi sao. It's really just the first stage in two handed chi sao

[Sean66]

There are people who specifically train the grab; who continually seek to connect to your arms, control them, grab them and then manipulate them in some way, either to set up a strike, a throw or a sweep.

Against someone who has really trained this, like in tang lang quan or shuai jiao, it's very difficult to avoid, and difficult to counter.

I just sparred this morning against someone who does a lot of taijiquan and yi quan and, well, it wasn't always easy and I got popped my share of times.

What helped? Staying relaxed and focused on the idea of lat sau jik chung, using heun sau to change sides and gain the flank, using the concept of "folding" when grabbed in order to enter with elbow strikes, and kicking low to the shins and knees.

[trubblman]

But let me asked you do you Practice Yong Chun?


Do you use Tan, Bong, Bil and Pak when you spar?

I have been practicing VT for almost 6 years but I have just started to spar. I also practice filipino martial arts. I have plenty chances to spar with other artists who
are also practicing FMA, for many people who come to FMA have backgrounds in other arts. We have one current amateur MMA fighter and a few guys who wrestled in high school.

I do use Tan Bong Bil Pak Fook Huen when I spar.

[Yoshiyahu]

@ EternalSpring Thank You for your reply...When i say sparring i mean put on some gloves, mouth guard and cup and go at it. But the key is no matter what the other person is doing you stick to WC principles and techniques and attempt to use all that you know pretaining any given situtation. The More you spar with a resistaning opponent the better you get. The more you use The WC techniques and principles in sparring the more you understand them from experience and experimentation.

Chi Sau is not sparring. Not even close. Sparring or fights for that matter don't start with two people connected to opposite hands. No one fights like that. For one Chi Sau is open. Your doors are open the entire time. Its easier to hit someone doing chi sau when your not than it is to hit someone sparring. No one starts off fighting in YGKYM either. Chi Sau is a drill that gives you a ging/jing to utilize when you do spar. After doing chi sau for awhile you will be able to adapt it to fighting...


Sanda or Sparring is when two people stand out of kicking and punching range. An when they begin they bridge the gap to strike or kick one another!

[Yoshiyahu]

I have been practicing VT for almost 6 years but I have just started to spar. I also practice filipino martial arts. I have plenty chances to spar with other artists who
are also practicing FMA, for many people who come to FMA have backgrounds in other arts. We have one current amateur MMA fighter and a few guys who wrestled in high school.

I do use Tan Bong Bil Pak Fook Huen when I spar.

Excellent what style of FMA do you study?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Ok, its good that you have that kind of experience. In my experience the biggest hurdle is not the exchange of blows but the fear and adrenaline rush that can sometimes make you feel very weak and not want to continue. Most street fights occur due the presence of drugs, in particualrly alchohol. Unless you are a little crazy in the head most people don't fight outside of competition just for the fun of it.

If Chi Sau is trained and understood correctly it shouldn't be a hinderance. It is a learning tool not a fighting tool although the skills that are improved in chi sau must cross over into sparring/fighting. The idea of chi sau is to remain free form contact and use the most simple punching route. It also teaches us that if our punch is blocked or deflected then we can find a new punching route in an instant. This allows one to mainting a constant attack (not chain punching) in which case your oppoents abilty to attack you back is restricted. My opinion is that chi sau can be an over indulgence and can actually detract from gaining any real fighting skills. Just look at that clip of the man and woman posted on another thread. They are sexy dancing with each other not fighting! :D The problem is that I bet that to them and their training partners/peers they think they are actually learning to fight.



GH

It appears then that we are in total aggreance, only using different words to say so.
I have never actually enjoyed fighting. I don't think I have ever had a fight that I was not at least scared. Or at least fearful of being beaten or hurt. This is what fighting is about.
I worked in a night club in Grand Prairie, Texas once that was probably the worst job I have ever taken. We had 30 bouncers and could not keep the peace. I think that most of the patrons actually came there to fight. They would train and work out hard all week and come friday and saturday night they would come to fight. The other half came to watch. It started at the front door no sooner than it opened and it was a running fist fight until we closed. We had a metal detector at the door and tried to keep guns and knives out, but they still got in. I lasted about a month, but had to quite because I stayed so sore and bruised it took me hours to get up and moving every morning. I have had a lot of jobs like that, and a few that were not exactly the same, but almost as bad.

[trubblman]

Excellent what style of FMA do you study?

Decuerdas Eskrima of Liborio "Ti Boring" Heyrosa as taught by Wesley and Walter Crisostomo

[Yoshiyahu]

Decuerdas Eskrima of Liborio "Ti Boring" Heyrosa as taught by Wesley and Walter Crisostomo

Thats great i train with a guy who does Balintawak...have you heard of it...its FMA too!

[trubblman]

Thats great i train with a guy who does Balintawak...have you heard of it...its FMA too!


Yes they say that De Cuerdas Eskrima was developed by( the late ) Liborio "Tiboring" Heyrosa, He was a student of Venacio "Anciong" Bacon and Nene "Ingko Nene" Rosales of the Balintawak system.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes they say that De Cuerdas Eskrima was developed by( the late ) Liborio "Tiboring" Heyrosa, He was a student of Venacio "Anciong" Bacon and Nene "Ingko Nene" Rosales of the Balintawak system.

Cool beans...So how does your Stick fighting tie in to your WC?

[trubblman]

Cool beans...So how does your Stick fighting tie in to your WC?

I am not sure it ties directly into but it certainly helps with hand sensitivity, wrist flexibility and being used to fight close range, for we spar at close range without padding. In addition, you get the benefit of training with weapons early on without having to go through the mystical nonsense as some martial arts systems.

[GLW]

Lee Chiang Po : "I worked in a night club in Grand Prairie, Texas"

That is where knowing the history of Grand Prairie would have helped - a lot.

Grand Prairie was traditionally DRY - no beer, no wine, no alcohol or any sort.

The county line was where you could get beer. That explains all of the small stop and robs that sell beer along roads like 19th, Great Southwest Parkway, and so on.

The places along the area with the county line have ALWAYS been rough and tumble. The city government sort of decided to keep it that way back in the early 1960's. They wanted to keep the trouble folks in one area where the rougher cops could patrol. It only started loosening up a bit in the last 10 or 15 years.

I know when I go up there, I am still amazed that there are now places I can order a glass of wine with dinner without going to Arlington... (What we would have given for that back in high school)

But, that rough and tumble seediness that was always the nature of the clubs in Grand Prairie has not changed. Anyone taking a job in any "club" in Grand Prairie needs to be totally prepared for the worst environment - and then if it isn't, you can be pleasantly surprised.

[Yoshiyahu]

I am not sure it ties directly into but it certainly helps with hand sensitivity, wrist flexibility and being used to fight close range, for we spar at close range without padding. In addition, you get the benefit of training with weapons early on without having to go through the mystical nonsense as some martial arts systems.

Thanks...So what other styles do your FMA mates used when they spar? Also what have you noticed works well with the wrestlers and mma guy?

[JPinAZ]

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- When you try to use your left hand to punch on his face,
- he pulls your right arm toward your left (his right).
- your body will be pulled and spin to your left,
- Your left arm will be jamed by your own right arm, and
- your left hand won't be able to reach to his nose.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do this, he will deserve to be punched on his nose by your left hand.

There is "smart" grab and there is "stupid" grab. A "smart" grab requires:

- proper angle (use your leading arm to jam your back arm),
- shaking (give you a quick shacking to destroy your structure),
- double controls (one hand grabs on your wrist while the other hand grabs on your elbow),
- footwork (move toward your side door - blind spot).

While the first part makes sense, I think all grabbing is stupid. If I grab someone, the grabbing hand is now 'dead' and can't be used for hitting or defending. I'd rather hit then grab. Control my space - distort opponent's facing and COG - hit when the opportunity arises.

[Yoshiyahu]

While the first part makes sense, I think all grabbing is stupid. If I grab someone, the grabbing hand is now 'dead' and can't be used for hitting or defending. I'd rather hit then grab. Control my space - distort opponent's facing and COG - hit when the opportunity arises.

Why not grab and punch simultaneously! While flanking your opponent structure! Are turning his center so you on his blind side!

[trubblman]

I think all grabbing is stupid. If I grab someone, the grabbing hand is now 'dead' and can't be used for hitting or defending.

If ALL grabbing is stupid then that raises the question; why is grabbing in VT if its stupid? If it is stupid I would imagine then all the VT predecessors would have discarded it by now.

[Yoshiyahu]

Important point to remember..., every time I practice.

Wu Wei...

Jox, :)


Bruce Lee words precisely




It appears then that we are in total aggreance, only using different words to say so.
I have never actually enjoyed fighting. I don't think I have ever had a fight that I was not at least scared. Or at least fearful of being beaten or hurt. This is what fighting is about.
I worked in a night club in Grand Prairie, Texas once that was probably the worst job I have ever taken. We had 30 bouncers and could not keep the peace. I think that most of the patrons actually came there to fight. They would train and work out hard all week and come friday and saturday night they would come to fight. The other half came to watch. It started at the front door no sooner than it opened and it was a running fist fight until we closed. We had a metal detector at the door and tried to keep guns and knives out, but they still got in. I lasted about a month, but had to quite because I stayed so sore and bruised it took me hours to get up and moving every morning. I have had a lot of jobs like that, and a few that were not exactly the same, but almost as bad.

lol buddy you need to get an education so you can get a new line of work!