wing chun stance and it's grappling weakness

[wiz cool c]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

[Vajramusti]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?
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An answer: most people claiming to do wing chun have not passed wing chun 101-the stance.
Without 101 you can't do 202..

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, the YJKYM is a very important training stance, not a fighting stance. It develops structure and methods of generating power. Fighting requires mobility and freedom. The stances used in BJD are more for fighting.

We should be clear which moves are for training the body and which for actual fighting.

[trubblman]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.

[Vajramusti]

In my opinion, the YJKYM is a very important training stance, not a fighting stance. It develops structure and methods of generating power. Fighting requires mobility and freedom. The stances used in BJD are more for fighting.

We should be clear which moves are for training the body and which for actual fighting.
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True- but without a good ygkym hardwired into your system you can flip flop when mobile.
Of course you dont just stand there with ygkym in a real situation.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.
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you have your opinion.See mine below.
You maybe limited by what you have seen. Good people in any style including grappling deserve respect for what they do.
Good wing chun persons after really learning the ygkym in great detai ( the average guy thinks he knows)- doesn't just stand there transfixed. He/she has many options.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.

There is always fear where there is a lack of exposure.

I disagree with your premise on low vs. high stances. low stances are less mobile and are vulnerable to low singles and ankle picks. many high stances fail due to level changes and penetration steps.

An athletic stance which is somewhat in the middle is optimal - balanced and mobile to any direction. Then, there are specific movements to shut down specific attacks. They need to be learned and drilled.

There is mostly weakness due to lack of specific training. Which BTW does not involve advanced details on the basic parallel WCK stance. Specific training is resistance to specific pressures to learn how to deal with them.

[wingchunIan]

there is no "stance" that can prevent a double leg take down. The only way to avoid it is to move the feet as the person changes level. Biu ma, saam bok ma etc all work as long as you move off the line of the attack and outside the arms. strikes and gum sau to the head of the attacker also help to prevent continued forward motion

[Hardwork108]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Good wing chun persons after really learning the ygkym in great detai ( the average guy thinks he knows)- doesn't just stand there transfixed. He/she has many options.

joy chaudhuri

Agreed.

That is common knowledge in any authentic Wing Chun kwoon. It is surprising that many people who claim Wing Chun experience are not aware of this fact, which based on an important foundation of genuine Wing Chun training.

[k gledhill]

VT requires mobility and angling to function. We adopt angles and counter motion with motion long before any striking is exchanged.

You cant fight in ygkym alone, its a drilling stance for mutual starting points and form work.

In SLT it is used to introduce a structured line of force from ground to our fists.
Hips and elbows are facing square, arms equally reach an apex point as they intersect a centerline. CK, this centerline / apex, always reaches equally as motion with line of force is added along with tactical ideas.

WSL mentions that in SLT techniques arent fully tactical or functional until the motion of Chum Kil is added. Meaning hip elbow ideas of SLT and body weight in motion as a 'unit' with facing forces combined to give displacing 'ging' and tactical maneuverability are required.

BCD footwork is even more elusive and shows how to gain ground or retreat equally in much larger steps to avoid being cut by an opponent swinging a blade wildly . We can also use this footwork on an advanced level seamlessly as required, why it isnt introduced too early or the force generation/tactics of the hands is confused for high mobility to cut & run along flanks that wouldnt allow hands to reach , let alone adopt elbow ideas, etc...

[couch]

there is no "stance" that can prevent a double leg take down. The only way to avoid it is to move the feet as the person changes level. Biu ma, saam bok ma etc all work as long as you move off the line of the attack and outside the arms. strikes and gum sau to the head of the attacker also help to prevent continued forward motion

Very good post.

----------

I prefer to deepen my Wing Chun stance and have the weight over the balls of my feet like I'm going to be wrestling with my opponent. This keeps my weight down and I'm ready to move on the balls of my feet in a moment's notice.

I, too, agree that no stance is superior to a takedown. Therefore, as many, I prefer to get my hips back on an angle while trying to bridge on the opponent's body somewhere (example: double Jum Sau on the neck).

[TenTigers]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting? :)

[trubblman]

There is always fear where there is a lack of exposure.

I disagree with your premise on low vs. high stances. low stances are less mobile and are vulnerable to low singles and ankle picks. many high stances fail due to level changes and penetration steps.

An athletic stance which is somewhat in the middle is optimal - balanced and mobile to any direction. Then, there are specific movements to shut down specific attacks. They need to be learned and drilled.

There is mostly weakness due to lack of specific training. Which BTW does not involve advanced details on the basic parallel WCK stance. Specific training is resistance to specific pressures to learn how to deal with them.

A low stance can prevent a leg takedown because a takedown depends on penetration. It is much more difficult to get penetration when the person is low. If you have a high stance then you have to rely on mobility to prevent a takedown but as MMA shows a lot of pure strikers have difficulty preventing a takedown using mobility. Its easier to get penetration on a high stance.

[Vajramusti]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting? :)
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Typical broken telephones on this forum. I for one never said that you stand petrified in a stance.
Both proper structure and proper motion are relevant in good Ip Man wing chun.

And(couch) if you are on the ball of your feet- you could be easily unbalanced by a grappler of any competence.

Enough for me. Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

[TenTigers]

yeah, I know. Just me bein' a smartazz...::D

[couch]

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Typical broken telephones on this forum. I for one never said that you stand petrified in a stance.
Both proper structure and proper motion are relevant in good Ip Man wing chun.

And(couch) if you are on the ball of your feet- you could be easily unbalanced by a grappler of any competence.

Enough for me. Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

I guess that's why so many boxers, wrestlers and MMA fighters are on their heels all the time. Must make it easier to sprawl then. (TIC)

[Lindley]

Kevin's explanation should be acknowledged and understood. As are many comments here that try to express how an "outsider" misunderstands the process of learning kung fu. The Ving Tsun system is a "collection of little ideas" and offers no absolute answer, just possibilities. Thus, this allows each practioner to develope their own method of expression. People who are martial arts hobbyists as opposed to those who live Kung Fu life often expect a martial art to have all the moves for all situations. No, this is just the movies not real life. This is why Ving Tsun is a complete system and that only those who pursue it to its master level could understand and enjoy its fruits.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u/87/cBPmlvAB8jA

[wiz cool c]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL47A072B53DD5D616

[Phil Redmond]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL47A072B53DD5D616
That's why in our WC we don't stand that way in fighting.

[stonecrusher69]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

In Fut Sao Wing Chun we dont always fight with a high stance we also use a low horse with a low center of gravity. This is introduced in our chum kiu form.

[k gledhill]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL47A072B53DD5D616

Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT.

here watch this for speed and movement..and tell me the difference ...a waddling lead leg entry or something else....a little bit faster angling striking... moving....:D

Philipp Bayer discussing angling and counters to striking entry..none involve a lead leg waddle with hands forwards. :D I say again, he is showing 'options' not everything possible.


CLIP 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc)

Another clip of Philipp working out a student in Menden Germany. Notice that there is no lead leg waddle ...ever ~!

Clip 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=OaCsPgUL1V8)

[Phil Redmond]

Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT.

here watch this for speed and movement..and tell me the difference ...a waddling lead leg entry or something else....a little bit faster angling striking... moving....:D

Philipp Bayer discussing angling and counters to striking entry..none involve a lead leg waddle with hands forwards. :D I say again, he is showing 'options' not everything possible.


CLIP 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc)

Another clip of Philipp working out a student in Menden Germany. Notice that there is no lead leg waddle ...ever ~!

Clip 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=OaCsPgUL1V8)

Dang, he's got good lo yat bin san aka fighting on the blindside. Especially in the first clip. That's just what I do.

[anerlich]

I tip my hat to those perfecting their stance.

But if you don't want to get taken down, practice takedown defence instead or as well.


so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

I couldn't give a rats' what the "wing chun community" does, assuming that such a thing exists, but I crosstrain with wrestling and Jiu Jitsu.

[k gledhill]

Dang, he's got good lo yat bin san aka fighting on the blindside. Especially in the first clip. That's just what I do.

He introduced me to this thinking....it makes it very clear why certain ideas of VT dont function and become glorified kick boxing.

[YouKnowWho]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting? :)

This is the key point. It's not how you stand. It's how fast that you can pull your leg back and ... Instead of looking at "stance", you should look at leg escape, footwork, body spin/sink, ...

[Frost]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1137288]Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT./QUOTE]

so any clips other than drills to show why this is bad and what you do is better...you know actual fights..............

[Yoshiyahu]

No Stance can prevent a take down.

I dont care if you practice Hung Gar or if you practice Crane ma.

No horse stance can prevent a take down...

Yee Kim Yeung Ma is double weighted. It is so for reason. I believe YGKYM is a fighting stance as well as training stance. But its not the first stance i would initiate with long range fighter. If i fight another inclose stand up fighter I might bridge with YGKYM. But most people take side riding horse stance.

I suggest starting off with forward advancing stance or moving horse. So you can move back and forth quickly as taking a front step or back step.

YGKYM allows you to rotate the core more effectively on both sides allowing you to generate equal force with both elbows if you are inclose quarters. But unless your toe to toe I wouldnt suggest standing in that stance for too long. Just long enough to get your issue off and adapt to situtation at hand. Same with Hanging horse. Its not static fighting posistion or ready stance. You might use it to advoid a leg sweep or deflect a kick. or even throw a knee. But you dont hold your knee in the air.


The key to advoiding a take down is either sprawl if their too close or dont stay in range where they can take you down but stay close enough to hit them!

This wont work on everyone it depends on how good they are. Just as the sprawl wont work on everyone!

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1137288]Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT./QUOTE]

so any clips other than drills to show why this is bad and what you do is better...you know actual fights..............

I saw a clip a while back on you tube with a WSL guy and an MMA champion doing shoot defense using side stance rather than a lead leg, I will try to find it.
The mma guy was showing attempted single leg take-downs where easy to a guy standing with a lead leg going back and forth in predictable lines of movement...no brainer, you could close your eyes and shoot and still know that a guy would be moving backwards....if you do bad VT you would be a sitting duck going back and forth in a leading leg face off.
This is why we start and use lateral shifting and cutting off the ring ideas as boxers. We can adopt lead legs with attacking entry as its available but if there is no availability then you create more options to random lines coming at you by moving laterally across the space in front of each of you fighting...maintaining a distance to work your goals and tactics....adopting a lead leg shuts this down straight away. If you dont understand then tactically your waking into two sharp pointy things waiting for you...;)

The mma guy in the clip was saying, agreeing, that by adopting a simple side facing stance , it takes the leading leg away [duh] and makes shooting in take a step further to reach the legs. This also brings you into fist/open palm striking aka gum sao to the head or head control, etc...or simple movement away from the line of force...movement... a guy steps towards me and I move either direction ...sideways and I can move sideways and back angling off the leading arm as it charges in, I know crazy talk :D just moving a little..... Then he refaces me and I do it again and again, its seen in the mma all the time , unpredictable movement to avoid takedowns, VT has no exclusivity to this and neither does MMA .

Movement can defeat any kick, any punch, any take down....from anybody. For how long ? who knows :D thats why they built a cage , you can run but you cant hide :D train harder

[Frost]

so no clips of actual fighting then............i mean you called that clip bad WC so you must have a clip of good WC for us to see, not demo's but actual fighting?

[Lindley]

I had the pleasure of training with my 250 pound student who was a college wrestler. When we faced off, he would drop down quickly and get my lead leg fairly easily. However on his 3rd attempt, I moved out of range immediately and then popped him with a committed jab. He immediately stopped and said that this would disrupt his ability to get set to take me to the ground. So as long as I was a moving target, it would be difficult. Ving Tsun is not some stiff martial art that relies only on a limited set of strikes. It can be deployed to whatever situation needed, which includes using a lot of mobility. Even though I used a jab, the jab is just a technique.

[k gledhill]

I had the pleasure of training with my 250 pound student who was a college wrestler. When we faced off, he would drop down quickly and get my lead leg fairly easily. However on his 3rd attempt, I moved out of range immediately and then popped him with a committed jab. He immediately stopped and said that this would disrupt his ability to get set to take me to the ground. So as long as I was a moving target, it would be difficult. Ving Tsun is not some stiff martial art that relies only on a limited set of strikes. It can be deployed to whatever situation needed, which includes using a lot of mobility. Even though I used a jab, the jab is just a technique.

...lead legs are also easily kicked by MT...same reasons to stay without a lead leg....

[jesper]

all stances has benefits and costs, same as with other technics.
The goal is to use the best tool at hand for the moment, so saying this or that works best is stupid at best

[k gledhill]

all stances has benefits and costs, same as with other technics.
The goal is to use the best tool at hand for the moment, so saying this or that works best is stupid at best

We work on a % basis rather than absolutes for this reason....

[Lee Chiang Po]

What is this with constant concern with Wing Chun not having anti take down? Ever watch UFC or the Octogon? These guys are supposed to be some of the best and yet they all get taken down. No one is immune to being taken down. Wing Chun is no different, and it is not lacking simply because it isn't any different. Someone said to train against it. And that is the bottom line. Train against takedown if you are afraid of it.
I rather doubt seriously if you would really ever have to worry about it unless you were fighting in the ring anyway.

[wiz cool c]

I rather doubt seriously if you would really ever have to worry about it unless you were fighting in the ring anyway.

why not worry about a double leg take down in the street, just about ever junior high school and high school and college in america have a wrestling team. so that is a pretty good chance you can run into a wrestler in the street.

[k gledhill]

why not worry about a double leg take down in the street, just about ever junior high school and high school and college in america have a wrestling team. so that is a pretty good chance you can run into a wrestler in the street.

I wrestled in jr high, but I wouldn't worry about my wrestling skills :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Two Bulls of equal size, Mass and weight!

One bull charges bull Two...


Bull Two stands their in low crotch preparing for impact.


Bull One is running at 35 to 45 mph twoards bull two which is just standing there waiting for the Hit!


When two bulls collide i promise you the bull standing there waiting for impact is going down!


There is No immovable stance!

[anerlich]

I dunno about that. I change trains to get to work in the morning, one day the second train ran a little bit early.

This guy comes barrelling out of the lift running as fast as he can for the train. I'm about six feet away. I don't have time to do anything but hunch the shoulders, one hand up protecting my jaw, and bend my knees.

Dude hits me full bore side on. I don't get moved or rocked. ****boy just keeps running, I yell after him to be more careful. No response or apology. I just keep walking over to the platform and catch the same train as him. Got a seat and everything.

If he'd have level changed and got under my COG might have been a different story. But just running full bore into someone ain't necessarily going to do ****.

[anerlich]

so that is a pretty good chance you can run into a wrestler in the street.


In Australia you'll find plenty of rugby players who'll try the same thing, less technical but not necessarily any less potentially dangerous.

[bennyvt]

Yeh way back before I trained against it I had a rugby hit do that. He had such a big ass neck I tried to Jum sao his neck as he came in he was ****ed but I still ended on my ass. Lucky the rest of the team had already left

[Phil Redmond]

- . . . . Ving Tsun is not some stiff martial art that relies only on a limited set of strikes. It can be deployed to whatever situation needed, which includes using a lot of mobility. Even though I used a jab, the jab is just a technique.
I agree wholeheartedly. My idea is to use whatever is necessary and efficient to survive an encounter. Even if some people will say what you used isn't WC. If it's efficient and effective is what matters.

[Dragonzbane76]

What is this with constant concern with Wing Chun not having anti take down? Ever watch UFC or the Octogon? These guys are supposed to be some of the best and yet they all get taken down. No one is immune to being taken down. Wing Chun is no different, and it is not lacking simply because it isn't any different. Someone said to train against it. And that is the bottom line. Train against takedown if you are afraid of it.

one of the smarter things i've seen you state.

I don't train WC so I can't comment on the tactics used from such but in reality there are only so many things you can do to negate the take down.

People talk about striking to stop the takedown. Which is a likeable solution but dependent upon the distance the person is at when coming in. setting one's self to strike takes time. if there is any distance between the 2 opponents then you have to deal with momentum. Even if you land a strong shot on them coming in momentum is already in play and carries through. You have to deal with that as well.

no easy answer to it. The sprawl is probably the best solution dependent upon the situation.


My idea is to use whatever is necessary and efficient to survive an encounter. Even if some people will say what you used isn't WC. If it's efficient and effective is what matters.
wise words.

[Wayfaring]

In Australia you'll find plenty of rugby players who'll try the same thing, less technical but not necessarily any less potentially dangerous.

And if you're in Melbourne you might find Australian Football League (AFL) players , who according to a friend of mine are much better than rugby players :)

[Wayfaring]

When two bulls collide i promise you the bull standing there waiting for impact is going down!

That sounds like a lot of bull to me ;)

[GlennR]

That sounds like a lot of bull to me ;)

Yep, udder nonsense :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

That sounds like a lot of bull to me ;)


I most undoubtely agree with you!

[Vajramusti]

Two Bulls of equal size, Mass and weight!

One bull charges bull Two...


Bull Two stands their in low crotch preparing for impact.


Bull One is running at 35 to 45 mph twoards bull two which is just standing there waiting for the Hit!


When two bulls collide i promise you the bull standing there waiting for impact is going down!


There is No immovable stance!
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FWIW watch a much lighter Chen stylist and a super heavy sumoist-Akebono-there are bulls and there are bulls..skill matters::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNlu_wA-VWA

[anerlich]

And if you're in Melbourne you might find Australian Football League (AFL) players , who according to a friend of mine are much better than rugby players


Careful ... you are straying into dangerous turf wars here ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FWIW watch a much lighter Chen stylist and a super heavy sumoist-Akebono-there are bulls and there are bulls..skill matters::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNlu_wA-VWA




i got a friend who is 6'8" and weighs over 350lbs...i weigh less than two hundred an i am 5'8"...I did the same thing to him with both toi shou (push hands) He doesn't know how to reidrect incomming force as well as I do. Thats why it was easy to pull him off balance, push him off balance and redirect his energy away...So go figure..Him and his wife would sometimes go to tai chi class on sundays. It was easier to move him than it was his wife who weighs less than me an is shorter.

Not a good video...Now imagine the big guy running full speed at the little guy...an the little guy running full speed at him...who do you think will win!

[Vajramusti]

i got a friend who is 6'8" and weighs over 350lbs...i weigh less than two hundred an i am 5'8"...I did the same thing to him with both toi shou (push hands) He doesn't know how to reidrect incomming force as well as I do. Thats why it was easy to pull him off balance, push him off balance and redirect his energy away...So go figure..Him and his wife would sometimes go to tai chi class on sundays. It was easier to move him than it was his wife who weighs less than me an is shorter.

Not a good video...Now imagine the big guy running full speed at the little guy...an the little guy running full speed at him...who do you think will win!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Depends on who knows rge realtionship of the centers of gravity better and can use that knowledge.

[Yoshiyahu]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------Depends on who knows rge realtionship of the centers of gravity better and can use that knowledge.

That exactly what I meant...well put!

[Lee Chiang Po]

why not worry about a double leg take down in the street, just about ever junior high school and high school and college in america have a wrestling team. so that is a pretty good chance you can run into a wrestler in the street.

Anythings possible, but the odds against it are probably pretty steep. And like I said, if you are afraid of a takedown, train against it. Wing Chun, jiujitsu, judo, boxing, MMA, whatever. If you are afraid or think it is possible then train against it. I trained against it. And to be sure you can not always avoid it. No one is immune to it. And then once taken down, you need to know how to get back to your feet without being beaten to death.
I occasionally watch the UFC fights and for the most part, even though these guys are steroidal looking and pretty tough, I have yet to see any of them that are really skilled past just being strong. They have to fight for any submission hold and quite often lose it. They tend to force by strength rather than roll into it by skill. Just watch and take notes. You will see. There are exceptions, and of these you will see them winning time and again.

[bennyvt]

Firstly afl players aren't much at tackling based on their rules the can only yakle between hip and shoulders so they can go for the legs.
As far as ufc guys not having skills are you serious. Its like the Olympics of fightng. Not many these days get in for being big and strong.

[wiz cool c]

Anythings possible, but the odds against it are probably pretty steep. And like I said, if you are afraid of a takedown, train against it. Wing Chun, jiujitsu, judo, boxing, MMA, whatever. If you are afraid or think it is possible then train against it. I trained against it. And to be sure you can not always avoid it. No one is immune to it. And then once taken down, you need to know how to get back to your feet without being beaten to death.
I occasionally watch the UFC fights and for the most part, even though these guys are steroidal looking and pretty tough, I have yet to see any of them that are really skilled past just being strong. They have to fight for any submission hold and quite often lose it. They tend to force by strength rather than roll into it by skill. Just watch and take notes. You will see. There are exceptions, and of these you will see them winning time and again.

ok dude we are trying to have an intelligent conversation here. you are obviously in la la land

[GlennR]

Anythings possible, but the odds against it are probably pretty steep. And like I said, if you are afraid of a takedown, train against it. Wing Chun, jiujitsu, judo, boxing, MMA, whatever. If you are afraid or think it is possible then train against it. I trained against it. And to be sure you can not always avoid it. No one is immune to it. And then once taken down, you need to know how to get back to your feet without being beaten to death.
I occasionally watch the UFC fights and for the most part, even though these guys are steroidal looking and pretty tough, I have yet to see any of them that are really skilled past just being strong. They have to fight for any submission hold and quite often lose it. They tend to force by strength rather than roll into it by skill. Just watch and take notes. You will see. There are exceptions, and of these you will see them winning time and again.

That is beyond clueless, actually it's uber cluelessness

[GlennR]

Firstly afl players aren't much at tackling based on their rules the can only yakle between hip and shoulders so they can go for the legs.
As far as ufc guys not having skills are you serious. Its like the Olympics of fightng. Not many these days get in for being big and strong.

The Olympics for fighting....... I like that Benny! :)

[GlennR]

Careful ... you are straying into dangerous turf wars here ;)

He sure is, afl guys have no idea about tackling...... But the I'm an Nrl guy

[Wayfaring]

Careful ... you are straying into dangerous turf wars here ;)

You are absolutely correct. Silly me. That is SO out of place here on this forum :eek:

Besides that, I'm about 98% ignorant on the differences.

[anerlich]

I occasionally watch the UFC fights and for the most part, even though these guys are steroidal looking and pretty tough, I have yet to see any of them that are really skilled past just being strong. They have to fight for any submission hold and quite often lose it. They tend to force by strength rather than roll into it by skill. Just watch and take notes. You will see. There are exceptions, and of these you will see them winning time and again.

Then there would no doubt be a huge market and opportunities for skilled TCMAers to beat these unskilled dupes, rake in the prizemoney, and go on to fame and fortune.

Still waiting! I guess everything looks easy from your armchair.

[Yoshiyahu]

Then there would no doubt be a huge market and opportunities for skilled TCMAers to beat these unskilled dupes, rake in the prizemoney, and go on to fame and fortune.

Still waiting! I guess everything looks easy from your armchair.


Im here I will be the one to show you from my armchair my maginificent chi is so strong i will disperse the steroids in their blood vessals and submit any ground fighter with my force throat grab...an then for the finally i will finish off my foe with Sith Lighting. I am just that powerful! All Skill baby! An i got doctored youtube vids to prove it!




Anythings possible, but the odds against it are probably pretty steep. And like I said, if you are afraid of a takedown, train against it. Wing Chun, jiujitsu, judo, boxing, MMA, whatever. If you are afraid or think it is possible then train against it. I trained against it. And to be sure you can not always avoid it. No one is immune to it. And then once taken down, you need to know how to get back to your feet without being beaten to death.
I occasionally watch the UFC fights and for the most part, even though these guys are steroidal looking and pretty tough, I have yet to see any of them that are really skilled past just being strong. They have to fight for any submission hold and quite often lose it. They tend to force by strength rather than roll into it by skill. Just watch and take notes. You will see. There are exceptions, and of these you will see them winning time and again.



Have you ever wrestled any one before. I know I have. An let me tell you...I hate ground fighting...never been good at it. Usually the bigger stronger guy wins. Because part of Skill is strength...Skill comes in the following areas: Accuracy and Percision,Strength and Power, Speed and Agility, Endurance and Stamina. The one who has mastered the following in addition to muscle memory and proper execution of techniques will win due to superior conditioning. If the Steroid guy is stronger. What makes you think some secret skill will allow you to defeat him at wrestling...Same with arm wrestling...its the stronger opponent who wins...True there is technique in BJJ, Judo, Akikido, and Jiujitsu. But the Faster, stronger guy is the one who will be victorious. Experience can sometime allow you defeat a stronger guy. But if you are equally skilled in knowledge and experience the guy who is stronger or faster will win nine time out of ten!

[bennyvt]

98% ignorance of the subject would be atleast half the forum. But then 99% of statistics is made up on the spot

[Yoshiyahu]

98% ignorance of the subject would be atleast half the forum. But then 99% of statistics is made up on the spot

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/demotivational-posters-this-is-the-sith-lord.jpg

[anerlich]

Im here I will be the one to show you from my armchair my maginificent chi is so strong i will disperse the steroids in their blood vessals and submit any ground fighter with my force throat grab...an then for the finally i will finish off my foe with Sith Lighting. I am just that powerful! All Skill baby! An i got doctored youtube vids to prove it!

Your attempts at humour don't make a lot of sense either.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your attempts at humour don't make a lot of sense either.

To the intelligent they laugh, To the autistic they become dumbfounded....Now I know which you are!

[Lee Chiang Po]

ok dude we are trying to have an intelligent conversation here. you are obviously in la la land

That is only your own perception. We all have our own perception of the facts, so yours is not any more relevent than mine. You strike me as a very young person or one that can actually blow smoke out his butt. That is just my own perception now, and in no way means that it is actually a fact.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow you guys bashing each other again eh?



That is only your own perception. We all have our own perception of the facts, so yours is not any more relevent than mine. You strike me as a very young person or one that can actually blow smoke out his butt. That is just my own perception now, and in no way means that it is actually a fact.