Joe Rogan

[GeneChing]

UFC Joe Rogan says Wing Chun Kung Fu is ineffective and a waste of time! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE)

I'm told he's actually referring to a fight connected to the one we covered in our March April 2010 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56284)(see Lucas's comment on that thread).

[goju]

joe rogan cant even tell the difference between slipping and bobbing and weaving

he really should just stick to his lousy stand up:D

[Three Harmonies]

Hate him as I do, he has solid points, and really is not dissing CMA unfairly, as he admitted he was a victim himself with TKD. What he says is for the most part, true.

He is also making reference to Black Taoist and Maoshan's silly nonsense in NYC.

Cheers

JAB

[HumbleWCGuy]

Interestingly, there seem to be more black sifus than white. Part of this is because it was difficult for blacks to train in Karate during the 60's and 70's which was dominated by white racists. This was even true to some extent in the 80's.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Joe really just needs to shut up. Anderson Silva Uses TKD all the time. Karate sucked until Machida. I suppose kung fu will suck until it's Machida comes along. Although San Da Does not suck by mma standards.

[Three Harmonies]

I do not understand the "black vs. white" thing. And I would argue that there are "more" black teachers than white. All depends on where you live.

Silva does not use TKD, it is Muay Thai. And everyone will talk **** until someone proves the **** talking wrong! So far... no one. Simple.

JAB

[HumbleWCGuy]

I do not understand the "black vs. white" thing. And I would argue that there are "more" black teachers than white. All depends on where you live.

Silva does not use TKD, it is Muay Thai. And everyone will talk **** until someone proves the **** talking wrong! So far... no one. Simple.

JAB


Sorry Bud, Anderson uses side stances, snapping round houses, and side kicks all the time. Those just aren't in the Muay Thai play book. Just do a search. Sure he uses the plumb and some standard Muay Thai, but he is doing a lot more TKD much to the chagrin of his MT coaches.


I should probably say that there is a higher proportion of Black to white sifus than black to white senseis. Although, I think that there might actually be more black sifus than white in the United States.

[goju]

Joe really just needs to shut up. Anderson Silva Uses TKD all the time. Karate sucked until Machida. I suppose kung fu will suck until it's Machida comes along. Although San Da Does not suck by mma standards.


joe also said tkd has no knees in it lol:rolleyes:

[RisingCrane]

It makes me a bit sad to watch that clip. It's clear he doesn't understand what kung fu is.
He laughs at moves like 'Tiger claws' and 'monkey fists', but HIS teacher uses colorful names like 'chill dog' and 'jiu claw'. A name is just a name- the training that goes behind it to make it effective is the what 'kung fu' means. It is a valid criticism that many Chinese martial artists have an overestimation of how much fighting skill they actually have- but that's just because of a lack of actual sparring and fighting experience, not the techniques themselves (SURELY everybody knows that a tiger claw to the face would hurt, that does not need to be proven?)
He says that when the two kung fu guys fought, it turned into an MMA match...
Actually, it turned into a fight. 'Hammerfist in side control" is not muay thai OR BJJ - its fighting. MMA guys fight- so it looked like that.
Simple really.

[mawali]

"Sport MA" has done alot to damage the consistency of the martial side so I understand that Joe's comment was solid to the point of the unwillingness of 'kungfools" to see both sides of the equation. I am amused that although he, himself would fare terribly in such an encounter, he does acknowledge the 'legend in their own mind" attitude of many on all sides!

[MightyB]

Hate him as I do, he has solid points, and really is not dissing CMA unfairly, as he admitted he was a victim himself with TKD. What he says is for the most part, true.

And everyone will talk **** until someone proves the **** talking wrong! So far... no one. Simple.

JAB

When you're right... you're right. A lot of nonsense and tomfoolery has crept into old skool TCMA. We can ignore the obvious or do something about it. I prefer doing something about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Silva is from the chute boxing academy in Rio, one of the top guys( coaches) there, perhaps the founder( I am not sure, going on memory here), used to do TKD before switching to MT.
That is were Silva probably picked some of the kicks up.

[goju]

theres this too
http://www.blackhousemma.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/20100104122405_i_taekwondo2.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres this too
http://www.blackhousemma.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/20100104122405_i_taekwondo2.jpg

LOL
He looks awesome, even in that !
He does a mean Bruce lee imitation too !

I think he got his BB in TKD when he was a teenager.

[wiz cool c]

rogan vs BT make it happen

[1bad65]

I am amused that although he, himself would fare terribly in such an encounter, he does acknowledge the 'legend in their own mind" attitude of many on all sides!

Rogan has a Brown Belt in BJJ. Id put my money on Rogan if he went up against either of those two idiots.

[bawang]

joe rogan is right

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've spoken to Shawn Obasi on the phone twice within the last 6 weeks or so - and he's an interesting character.

Check this out:

http://inasectv.com/view_episode.php?id=243

[Ultimatewingchun]

And on another forum, Joe Rogan had this to say:

"Shawn can fight, no doubt. For some reason he thought I was talking about him when I was doing Michael Schiavello's interview, but like I explained to him, I was talking about dudes that practice nonsense in the park, not guys that actually fight MMA. Shawn has real good power in his hands and actually knows how to fight and competes...."

[HumbleWCGuy]

Saying that every kung fu practitioner, except 1, sucks, doesn't make me happy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Shawn is a bit over the top, but he's worth keeping an eye on.

[SAAMAG]

Joe Rogan talks a lot of internet ****. But you know what? He's straight forward and if you've ever seen his comedy stuff he's pretty funny IMO.

I think his point was that practicing in a park doing patty cake play fighting does no one any good outside of being a social event.

I remember the gung fu group at the park when I was in the military. People would drive by making fun of them because they'd all be standing around smoking cigarettes in between form sets. None of them competed in anything, none of them pressure tested themselves, and none of them had any idea they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Now Shaun on the other hand is a bit out there...based on what I saw on the M-1 tryouts. But ya know what? He along with guy's like Alan Orr's crew are doing what other people only theorize about, and that's fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm no fan of Joe Rogan. He's a front-runner...if you get my meaning. And Alan's guys and Shawn are not the only wing chun guys who fight. But they are people the rest of the wing chun world should be keeping track of. I, for one, hope they all do well.

[MasterKiller]

I think his point was that practicing in a park doing patty cake play fighting does no one any good outside of being a social event. .

He was specifically talking about Maoshan and Black Taoist.

[monji112000]

is this the same shawn obasi?
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=stats.fighterDetail&pid=AFE770168F222301

I don't see anything on sherdog.. I have been waiting for him to do some real mma events.. isn't the underground fight league an "illegal" mma event?

I first heard about him from a friend who works out at a gym. The gym owner pretended to know martial arts, and created a fake record.. fought shawn in an illegal MMA event in ny...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E&feature=PlayList&p=D0CCF7A85111B220&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

What I can't figure out is.. there are so many amateur events going on in NJ.. why isn't he doing them and building a real record? Nothing against him personally but he seems to be more talk than anything else. The only way to get respect is to fight in allot of normal MMA events.. and win.. its not rocket science. The fact is nobody in Wing Chun is doing that .. that I know of.. I would love to hear of something doing that..

[SAAMAG]

He was specifically talking about Maoshan and Black Taoist.

Is Maoshan the guy who everyone talks about because he keeps filming himself getting his ass kicked?

Black taoist I don't remember.

[Lee Chiang Po]

is this the same shawn obasi?
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=stats.fighterDetail&pid=AFE770168F222301

I don't see anything on sherdog.. I have been waiting for him to do some real mma events.. isn't the underground fight league an "illegal" mma event?

I first heard about him from a friend who works out at a gym. The gym owner pretended to know martial arts, and created a fake record.. fought shawn in an illegal MMA event in ny...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E&feature=PlayList&p=D0CCF7A85111B220&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

What I can't figure out is.. there are so many amateur events going on in NJ.. why isn't he doing them and building a real record? Nothing against him personally but he seems to be more talk than anything else. The only way to get respect is to fight in allot of normal MMA events.. and win.. its not rocket science. The fact is nobody in Wing Chun is doing that .. that I know of.. I would love to hear of something doing that..

I have watch a lot of this MMA fighting and have yet to see anyone use anything other then the standard MMA stuff. Now and then a person might be billed as a black belt karate or such, but other than the occasional high kick they stay with MMA. So why is is so critical to see a Wing Chun fighter in the MMA ring? Why not one of the other forms or systems of kung fu? Why does Wing Chun have to be the one? All you guys talk like real experts on this thing, so why are you not out there fighting in an MMA ring, using your Wing Chun or whatever? Most of you have never had a real fight since elementery school, so why is is so important that you can fight in the first place? And BTW, on the list of forums, just below Wing Chun, there is the MMA forum.

[monji112000]

I have watch a lot of this MMA fighting and have yet to see anyone use anything other then the standard MMA stuff. Now and then a person might be billed as a black belt karate or such, but other than the occasional high kick they stay with MMA. So why is is so critical to see a Wing Chun fighter in the MMA ring? Why not one of the other forms or systems of kung fu? Why does Wing Chun have to be the one? All you guys talk like real experts on this thing, so why are you not out there fighting in an MMA ring, using your Wing Chun or whatever? Most of you have never had a real fight since elementery school, so why is is so important that you can fight in the first place? And BTW, on the list of forums, just below Wing Chun, there is the MMA forum.

I have not trained for and do not have any desire to fight in a MMA event. further I have not trained in Wing Chun in some time because of my current living/working location is too far to commute. That being said Obasi seems to clearly want to fight "MMA" fighters and "muy thai" fighters. He has said many times he wants to prove to the world that Wing Chun is a possible fighting style in the ring/cage. I personally like seeing any fighting style that isn't just the normal what everyone else is doing fighting style. A good example in my not so humble opinion is What David Ross (NY sanda) has done with his fighters and his teachers styles combined with what he has learned from other sources.

I made no attempt to praise or criticize Obasi's wing chun and I will not. Its not what I learned, and I don't like his style.. but what good is my opinion other than to myself.

My point was he seems to be one of two things 1) dumb (probably not) or 2) full of hot air (more likely)
why? because if he really wanted fight there are so many real organizations and chances he can with little effort take advantage of. I can't blame any major promoter for not allowing him the chance to just walk into the ring and fight someone.. simple because he wants too.. If your coming with a style people already thing is a joke, and you can't at min blend with what they think is "real" fighting, then you have to prove it in the before hand. Obasi has not proven anything as of today. He hasn't fought anyone with any real skill in the Cage/ring .

NJ has a few Amateur fighting leagues, that's were he needs to go. I guarantee he if kills a bunch of guys that seems to have some skill then he is more likely to get a bigger fight.

The days of being a odd ball TMA fighter and fighting in the UFC are gone. This isn't 1992 and it isn't UFC 2

BTW I responded to the post I didn't start it. It was posted here because he is a "wing chun fighter" and he claims to be willing to die a "wing chung fighter".

[HumbleWCGuy]

joe rogan is right

Without a doubt he would be correct concerning any kung fu that you have been involved with.

[pazman]

bawang is right

[Dragonzbane76]

bawang is always right... first rule

[MysteriousPower]

Blacktaoist and Maodhan are two of the biggest mouth boxers around. They have more videos of them talking than sparring. BT in particular seems to be very careful of having video of himself sparring.

Joe Rogan and Bawang are correct. BT and Maoshan think walking around in circles will give them magical powers.

Humblewc,
where do you see more black sifus than anywhere else? Innercity ghettos? Those locations would ubdoubtedly have more black sifus than sifus of other races.

[MasterKiller]

Is Maoshan the guy who everyone talks about because he keeps filming himself getting his ass kicked?

Black taoist I don't remember.

Yeah, that's him. BT is his brother.

[SAAMAG]

Soooo then where's the fallacy in Joe Rogan's statement then that they're practicing patty cake?

Because it seems evident that they're doing something wrong if they're getting made fun of constantly on internet forums based on actual video footage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Soooo then where's the fallacy in Joe Rogan's statement then that they're practicing patty cake?

Because it seems evident that they're doing something wrong if they're getting made fun of constantly on internet forums based on actual video footage.

It's his generalization to all kung fu that I don't like.

[Frost]

It's his generalization to all kung fu that I don't like.

unfortunatly until someone with a kung fu background steps up and wins in the cage his view will be the majority view held by people

[Lucas]

dont some people doing mma in china have cma sanshou training as their striking core and shuai jiao as their grappling base......

example:

Current issue of this magazine......:rolleyes:

just because people pull the wool over their own eyes, does not mean there is nothing beyond the veil....oh right, those guys all lose, no winners in any of those matches. my bad. post retracted...

granted these guys arent in the american market, but still, there are people using cma material in mma format. but well, a lot peope think UFC is all there is in mma....thats what we call good marketing.

[SAAMAG]

Well UFC is popular all over the world. It's great marketing! Does it have the best fighters? NNNNOOOOO way.

[goju]

unfortunatly until someone with a kung fu background steps up and wins in the cage his view will be the majority view held by people

i thought cung le already did

[Lucas]

Thats debatable, based around his MA background.

what isnt debatable however is that he adopted a CMA full contact format to the MMA game.

regardless of the material he studied to learn the fight, he proved san shou can work in mma

[Frost]

i thought cung le already did

what do you mean? the TKD blackbelt and high school wrestling champ who trained in sanshou and vietnamese martial arts...that cung lee. And i think when people talk about TCMA and their lack of credability in the ring they are not talking about san shou...we are talking about the traditional arts, wing chun, hung gar, mantis, bagua, tai chi etc.

[goju]

what do you mean? the TKD blackbelt and high school wrestling champ who trained in sanshou and vietnamese martial arts...that cung lee. And i think when people talk about TCMA and their lack of credability in the ring they are not talking about san shou...we are talking about the traditional arts, wing chun, hung gar, mantis, bagua, tai chi etc.

Yes thank you for mentioning that he also knows tkd and vietnamese kung fu that just solidifies him as a tma stylist:D

Youd be suprised how anything from the orient with the exception of thai boxing gets ragged on for being ineffective including sanda:D

[Frost]

Yes thank you for mentioning that he also knows tkd and vietnamese kung fu that just solidifies him as a tma stylist:D

Youd be suprised how anything from the orient with the exception of thai boxing gets ragged on for being ineffective including sanda:D

sorry what was his kung fu background again...

[PHILBERT]

Yes thank you for mentioning that he also knows tkd and vietnamese kung fu that just solidifies him as a tma stylist:D

Youd be suprised how anything from the orient with the exception of thai boxing gets ragged on for being ineffective including sanda:D

Just because somebody knows Tae Kwon Do that fights in MMA does not make them a traditional stylist.

If a fighter got a black belt in TKD, then later went and trained in Muay Thai and a grappling art, then went into an MMA match, would you call them a traditional TKD fighter?

[goju]

Just because somebody knows Tae Kwon Do that fights in MMA does not make them a traditional stylist.

If a fighter got a black belt in TKD, then later went and trained in Muay Thai and a grappling art, then went into an MMA match, would you call them a traditional TKD fighter?

well lets see he calls himself a traditional martial artist and still uses techniques from all three of the tma he learned in his fights despite the fact he learned a grappling art ( tkd doesnt work on the ground phil) and cross trained in mt


yeah i think he is a traditional stylist:rolleyes:

[goju]

sorry what was his kung fu background again...

sanda and vietnamese kung fu

keep with the conversation frost i thought your people invented this language :D :p

[HumbleWCGuy]

unfortunatly until someone with a kung fu background steps up and wins in the cage his view will be the majority view held by people

There are guys who are winning with kung fu but they just don't talk about it much because of the stigma. Matt Sera (sp). That big country guy who won the ultimate fighter was a kung fu guy. All of Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson's guys probably get a bit of kung fu since Greg and Erik are both pretty good JKDers.

[SoCo KungFu]

Do we really need to go through this again? Really what difference does it make? Its funny, I've never really had anybody in my MMA gym ever give a **** where something comes from. Kung fu by large sucks for contact, yeah we get it. People don't train. Its cliche to quote Bruce Lee but he had it right, a punch is a punch. A kick is a kick. I use things I learned in 7 star mantis in the clinch. Why? Cuz I can do it. It's not all that different that somethings I picked up now in Muay Thai. Do I care that most people don't recognize it as kung fu? No. I suck at wrestling. My shot is in my opinion atrocious. I am good at upper body control though. And I like to work over/unders with dirty boxing and hip throws. Do I care that people generically call it a judo throw? No. Cuz it is, its also something I first learned in mantis. Do I care that I've seen Randy Couture use it a dozen times and they call it greco/roman? No, cuz it is. Funny that, its wrestling, judo and kungfu all at the same time. What the hell difference does it make in the end?

Kung fu guys do it to themselves. Always using excuses about why their stuff don't work in a ring/cage and yet that same stuff is used by everyone else. Maybe people need to start looking at why Randy can ou, lou, tsai better than 90% of the mantis guys and figure out what they're doing wrong.

[SoCo KungFu]

There are guys who are winning with kung fu but they just don't talk about it much because of the stigma. Matt Sera (sp). That big country guy who won the ultimate fighter was a kung fu guy. All of Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson's guys probably get a bit of kung fu since Greg and Erik are both pretty good JKDers.

Or maybe they just consider themselves MMA guys and don't give a crap about where something comes from as long as it works...

[goju]

Do we really need to go through this again? Really what difference does it make? Its funny, I've never really had anybody in my MMA gym ever give a **** where something comes from.

EXACTLY same with me.:D

[Hardwork108]

Has anyone seen this? I did not post this in the Wing Chun forum because it seems that Joe Rogan's comments were directed at all TCMA/TMAs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE&feature=watch_response_rev

Sorry if this has been posted before.


.

[Frost]

Not seen this one before but his views on TMA are well known, and from his point of view can you blame him he is a product of his enviroment.

He was in the UFC from almost the start he has seen it evolve and from his point of view wheres TMA? who is repping it in his world (MMA) who is using trapping, open hand strikes standing locks etc

You might argue TMA doesnt want to fight in the cage which is fine, but he is looking at it from asports guy and competitive martial arts point of view

[bawang]

wing chun single handedly ruined kung fu in america

[Hardwork108]

Not seen this one before but his views on TMA are well known, and from his point of view can you blame him he is a product of his enviroment.

Actually I don't blame him, because like most people here who criticize the TCMAs here in this forum, he has never had proper genuine training in kung fu.


He was in the UFC from almost the start he has seen it evolve and from his point of view wheres TMA? who is repping it in his world (MMA) who is using trapping, open hand strikes standing locks etc

Again, I understand this and I know his view is based on the limited world of sports MA and his very limited experience of TMAs - not unlike most people in this forum who criticize the TCMAs.

By the way, a Chow Gar Mantis kung fu brother of mine has knocked out a guy in the street with an open hand (palm) strike. It is easy when you know how. ;)

In the Wing Chun lineage that I practice, with a curriculum that takes 6 to 8 years to complete, as opposed to "I am a sifu after two years" schools, one starts with a lot of fist strikes and conditioning in the earlier parts of the training. As one advances more and more open hand (as well as claw) strikes are used.

Food for thought!


You might argue TMA doesnt want to fight in the cage which is fine, but he is looking at it from asports guy and competitive martial arts point of view

Agreed. Sports tournaments are only one facet of the immense world of the martial arts.

[Hardwork108]

wing chun single handedly ruined kung fu in america

I would correct you (as usual...lol) and say that unscrupulous fake sifus are the ones who have ruined kung fu in america and beyond. Just have look at the kung fu cluelessness in this very forum. This actually reflects what has happened in the world at large.

[lance]

Has anyone seen this? I did not post this in the Wing Chun forum because it seems that Joe Rogan's comments were directed at all TCMA/TMAs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE&feature=watch_response_rev

Sorry if this has been posted before.


.

Well , america is a free country so Joe can say whatever he wants to say , he may be big in the UFC . But as far as saying that wing chun and TCMA is just a waste of time . If I was joe , I would go out and challenge all the TCMA masters and WC practitioners all around the world , but until I win the challenges against these TCMA masters or WC practitioners . I would ' nt say anything .

And I ' ve seen this video before , but it ' s okay we all make mistakes .

MMA - Is basically mix martial arts which fighters used their skills regardless of thai boxing , judo or jujutsu , karate or sambo . So it all depends too on each fighters skills and potential in challeging the skills of other fighters . Somebody going win and somebody going lose . But as far as WC or TCMA masters in the UFC I think it did happen one time , if I ' m not mistaken at one time there were 2-
WC experts going against eachother and the best WC practioner won against the other WC expert . If I ' m wrong you people can correct me . But as times went by for the MMA did ' nt yet see WC people and TCMA people yet fight in the MMA against other fighters . But It still does ' nt mean that WC or TCMA are a waste of time .

[Dragonzbane76]

Honestly who cares? This is another stupid argument fanning the mma vs. Tcma flames. I dont really like rogen all that much to consider his opinion worth while. Why should u? If wc finds it so offensive step up and go fight in the cage and prove everyone wrong.

[JamesC]

I'm with DragonzBane. I don't really care anymore.

That said, I like Joe Rogan. I don't like his standup stuff, but I like that he's not afraid to back up the things he says.

[sanjuro_ronin]

While Joe is a **** and is just creating controversy as he loves to do, he is also quite right.
See, BJJ guys have the same view: Show me.
Most TCMA have this view: Tell me.
To BJJ guys anecdotal stuff means almost nothing and they couldn't care less what someone MIGHT have done on the street or 50 years ago, they care about what YOU can do RIGHT NOW.
TCMA love to tale about what someone else did here and there and what they DID here and there, but you rarely see them DOING it NOW.
One of the reasons I have never had problems with the MMA crowd or BJJ guys is because I don't talk about what someone else did ( though kyokushin is respected in MMA of course) and I am more than willing to show them.
I venture that ANY TCMA guy that does the same will have the respect of the MMA and BJJ crowd.

[David Jamieson]

SR - If you wanna get pizzed, check out the latest issue of chill magazine from the beerstore with Pacman on the cover.

Gurg. Who ever wrote the top athlete comparisons was a ******* armchair pimple I am certain.

[wenshu]

Videos old but I have always wondered if is he talking about Black Taoist?

Someone should point this out to Novell so he can make an incoherently rambling youtube video response.

If I was in the UFC, during the post fight the first thing I would say is " Why are you yelling at me Joe Rogan?"

[sanjuro_ronin]

SR - If you wanna get pizzed, check out the latest issue of chill magazine from the beerstore with Pacman on the cover.

Gurg. Who ever wrote the top athlete comparisons was a ******* armchair pimple I am certain.

I don't go to the beer store...what did the article say?
( comparing athletes of different sports is like comparing a handjob and a blowjob from two different girls to see which one is the better lay).

[David Jamieson]

I don't go to the beer store...what did the article say?
( comparing athletes of different sports is like comparing a handjob and a blowjob from two different girls to see which one is the better lay).

:eek: You don't go to the beerstore? What are you? some kind of alien or something?

It's quite a long article and some of it is agreeable, but overall assessments are clearly biased.

Here's the ezine version:
http://www.chillmedia.co/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:best-athletes-in-the-world-fight-sports&catid=11:sports&Itemid=213

[sanjuro_ronin]

:eek: You don't go to the beerstore? What are you? some kind of alien or something?

It's quite a long article and some of it is agreeable, but overall assessments are clearly biased.

Here's the ezine version:
http://www.chillmedia.co/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:best-athletes-in-the-world-fight-sports&catid=11:sports&Itemid=213

That isn't as bad as I thought.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Actually I don't blame him, because like most people here who criticize the TCMAs here in this forum, he has never had proper genuine training in kung fu.



Again, I understand this and I know his view is based on the limited world of sports MA and his very limited experience of TMAs - not unlike most people in this forum who criticize the TCMAs.

By the way, a Chow Gar Mantis kung fu brother of mine has knocked out a guy in the street with an open hand (palm) strike. It is easy when you know how. ;)

In the Wing Chun lineage that I practice, with a curriculum that takes 6 to 8 years to complete, as opposed to "I am a sifu after two years" schools, one starts with a lot of fist strikes and conditioning in the earlier parts of the training. As one advances more and more open hand (as well as claw) strikes are used.

Food for thought!



Agreed. Sports tournaments are only one facet of the immense world of the martial arts.

Actually, Rogan began martial arts in Taekwondo and competed in it for several years. It seems he does not have any experience in TCMA but he did come from a TMA background. So once again, perhaps you should do a little research into things before you go spouting off about how know one in the world knows anything except you.:rolleyes:

For the record, I think Joe Rogan is a complete douchenozzle, but facts are facts.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I don't go to the beer store...what did the article say?
( comparing athletes of different sports is like comparing a handjob and a blowjob from two different girls to see which one is the better lay).

This is a truly worthy endeavor and never gets old.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a truly worthy endeavor and never gets old.

One of the many reasons research is crucial in life.

[Frost]

Actually I don't blame him, because like most people here who criticize the TCMAs here in this forum, he has never had proper genuine training in kung fu.



Again, I understand this and I know his view is based on the limited world of sports MA and his very limited experience of TMAs - not unlike most people in this forum who criticize the TCMAs.

By the way, a Chow Gar Mantis kung fu brother of mine has knocked out a guy in the street with an open hand (palm) strike. It is easy when you know how. ;)

In the Wing Chun lineage that I practice, with a curriculum that takes 6 to 8 years to complete, as opposed to "I am a sifu after two years" schools, one starts with a lot of fist strikes and conditioning in the earlier parts of the training. As one advances more and more open hand (as well as claw) strikes are used.

Food for thought!



Agreed. Sports tournaments are only one facet of the immense world of the martial arts.

he competed in his TMA to a high level and i suspect has seen plenty of TCMA.... and if those that have the real TCMA cant man up and compete in sports events then he and the rest of us will just have to live in ignorance :)

I find it strange that real TCMA masters like WSL in wing chun and Ip Sui in chow gar made their names in gong sau matches yet their students by and large dont seem able to do the same in the modern sport world, if masters like those saw benefits in competing against other skilled opponents in limited rules competition whats stopping their students doing the same?

[Lucas]

lyoto machida is a great example of tma in mma. yes he has a bjj black belt, but he is also a karate master, as was his father. you can see it in his fighting.

I think a great example of TMA in MMA fight would be when machida defended his title from rua. was very much a karate vs muay thai fight. yes the ground was an element, but there was not really one solid take down. shogun had a few attempts but really kept to his MT kicking and elbows and knees in the clinch, where machida stuck to his feints and blasting in with punch combinations supported by kicks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lyoto machida is a great example of tma in mma. yes he has a bjj black belt, but he is also a karate master, as was his father. you can see it in his fighting.

I think a great example of TMA in MMA fight would be when machida defended his title from rua. was very much a karate vs muay thai fight. yes the ground was an element, but there was not really one solid take down. shogun had a few attempts but really kept to his MT kicking and elbows and knees in the clinch, where machida stuck to his feints and blasting in with punch combinations supported by kicks.

An excellent example dude.
ANY TMA can be effective in MMA, it just has to be trained that way.
Judo works in MMA, MT is a TMA/sport, karate has representation in MMA and all over the KB/K-1 world.

[Lucas]

I completely agree. The most important lesson i feel MMA has given the world is that its all about your training methods. the respective skillsets are there, in any system, its how you develop them and keep them up to par that is truly important.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I completely agree. The most important lesson i feel MMA has given the world is that its all about your training methods. the respective skillsets are there, in any system, its how you develop them and keep them up to par that is truly important.

Lucas has won the internet and now will be rewarded with guilt free poonany for life !

[Lucas]

Yesss!!!!!!!

[Lucas]

now i did not watch that vid cuz im at work but is this in reference to that one wing chun guy who tried out for ultimate fighter and had a bad showing and got all ****y?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think we all get tired of the MMA vs. TMA debate, but the truth of it is MMA competitions are an excellent testing ground for one's art and skill set. The truth is if you can compete and win against a trained opponent who uses striking, clinch, and grappling with your art than you should have no trouble defending yourself from an attack from Joe Blow on the deadly street.:rolleyes:

Notice the guy interviewing says something about these guys being in denial because they spent years training in a style that they cannot use to fight with. I still feel it is not so much the style as it is training methods, but oh well.

[diego]

Not seen this one before but his views on TMA are well known, and from his point of view can you blame him he is a product of his enviroment.

He was in the UFC from almost the start he has seen it evolve and from his point of view wheres TMA? who is repping it in his world (MMA) who is using trapping, open hand strikes standing locks etc

You might argue TMA doesnt want to fight in the cage which is fine, but he is looking at it from asports guy and competitive martial arts point of view

um I think trapping implies heavy usage of eye strikes and illegal moves like 12 to 6 elbows like jon jones used when he got disqualified, I don't know pulling a guys arm-sleeve to his blind side implies the guy can't see right?. makes sence to me. I mean when a guy catches **** in his eye he stops puts his hands to his face and waits for the judge to stop and give him a hug you can find video all over the net showing this...so when he stops and covers his eyes wouldn't it be a smart tactic to tie his arms up and hit a soft spot like his other eye lol

yall know joe rogan is a drug addict on steroids right check out his view on aliens and DMT :(

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byy0oSL53CU

so why can't you trap the guy in the first ten seconds lol? or throw a flying side kick or even at that point climb on top of the ropes and hit him Macho http://mimg.ugo.com/200806/25292/top-rope-elbowdrop.jpg

[Lucas]

i dont really have much of an opinion on joe rogan but i think he does a good job on announcing fights.

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a WC trap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE
I have another angle that I need to make slo mo to see it better. What Jerry did well though was the short range knockout punch that we trained so hard.

[Frost]

um I think trapping implies heavy usage of eye strikes and illegal moves like 12 to 6 elbows like jon jones used when he got disqualified, I don't know pulling a guys arm-sleeve to his blind side implies the guy can't see right?. makes sence to me. I mean when a guy catches **** in his eye he stops puts his hands to his face and waits for the judge to stop and give him a hug you can find video all over the net showing this...so when he stops and covers his eyes wouldn't it be a smart tactic to tie his arms up and hit a soft spot like his other eye lol

yall know joe rogan is a drug addict on steroids right check out his view on aliens and DMT :(

and people wonder why Rogan has this opinion of TCMA....

[Hardwork108]

Actually, Rogan began martial arts in Taekwondo and competed in it for several years.

Yes, he did refer to his experience in the lethal art of Tae Kwon Do in that interview. I guess that qualifies him to badmouth all the TCMAs and other TMAs under the sun.

You know, he sounds like some of the forum members here who have not had a day's training in an authentic kung fu school, even if they have trained years in some Mc Kung fu school, who then go on to make clueless comments about all TCMA methodologies on the planet.


It seems he does not have any experience in TCMA
It sure seems that way.....LOL!



but he did come from a TMA background.

The world of the kung fu cluelessness - including the segment that posts here - is full of people with TMA "backgrounds".....


So once again, perhaps you should do a little research into things before you go spouting off about how know one in the world knows anything except you.:rolleyes:

Perhaps you should be the one "researching" by reading my original post, and seeing that this thread is NOT about me, but a phenomenon of people making stupid comments about the TCMAs, without having trained in them authentically a day in their lives.


For the record, I think Joe Rogan is a complete douchenozzle, but facts are facts.
Yes, and the fact is that he made derogatory comments about a system(s) that he has no clue about, just like some of his fellow MMA-ists who post on internet forums.

[Hardwork108]

he competed in his TMA to a high level
You mean, he has competed in Tae Kwon Do to a high level? LOL!

Come on, you just like him because he pumps iron...;):D


and i suspect has seen plenty of TCMA....

I suspect that he hasn't!

Furthermore, I suspect that the only TCMA he has seen has been in his local Mcdojo, like most of the other MMA-ists who badmouth the TCMAs.


and if those that have the real TCMA cant man up and compete in sports events then he and the rest of us will just have to live in ignorance :)
Limiting the benchmark for combat worthiness of martial arts systems that have been around for thousands of years to their performance in modern sports tournaments does show some ignorance.

Just saying that it is not the only way....


I find it strange that real TCMA masters like WSL in wing chun and Ip Sui in chow gar made their names in gong sau matches yet their students by and large dont seem able to do the same in the modern sport world, if masters like those saw benefits in competing against other skilled opponents in limited rules competition whats stopping their students doing the same?

I have come across quite a few kung fu people who have fought for real ( no rules and sometimes, very few rules by agreement) and many times at that, but who would not enter a ring if you paid them. They do not see a point in it. If they are challenged they will fight, that means what they have learned works for them - end of story!

[Dragonzbane76]

Yes, he did refer to his experience in the lethal art of Tae Kwon Do in that interview.

No need to bash tkd. Actually of all systems tkd probably has the best kicks ive seen. Tkd lacks in many areas for sure but thats a typical thing in MA's just look at tcma and the lack of grappling and clinch it you want a fair comparison.

[Hardwork108]

No need to bash tkd. Actually of all systems tkd probably has the best kicks ive seen. Tkd lacks in many areas for sure but thats a typical thing in MA's just look at tcma and the lack of grappling and clinch it you want a fair comparison.

You just proved my point. TCMA has plenty of grappling!

[Dragonzbane76]

You just proved my point. TCMA has plenty of grappling!

Haha funny.

Not in the interpretation of grappling it doesnt delve into the many layers of it. Having a bland overview does not constitute a well versed understanding of clinch or grappling. But go ahead and keep trying to convince yourself otherwise.

[GeneChing]

I just needed a place to post this:

Wing-ing it (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/life/2011-10/14/content_13901407.htm)
Updated: 2011-10-14 11:33
By Alexis Hooi (China Daily European Weekly)

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/usa/life/img/attachement/jpg/site241/20111014/b8ac6f9374f61001f1bf03.jpg
Keith King says Chinese martial arts help him stay disciplined in his work and life. Provided to China Daily

Briton takes the Chinese martial art of wing chun and applies it to his way of life

Briton Keith King has martial arts coursing through his veins. "I grew up with martial arts around me. My father practiced and taught jujutsu while my mother did judo. They would spar or train with each other," says King, who is from Portsmouth, England.

Fueled by his passion for martial arts, King decided to leave home for China, the birthplace of kungfu. That was 10 years ago when he was 21.

He ended up in Guangdong, the southern Chinese province famous for churning out kungfu legends like Ip Man, Huang Feihong and Bruce Lee, who ultimately showed the world the prowess of Chinese martial arts.

In Guangzhou, Guangdong's capital, King was introduced to Wing Chun, a martial art indigenous to the area and known for specializing in close range combat.

"I bumped into a lot of bad quality martial arts instructors in my first year in China," King says.

"They knew only a bit and wanted to get money out of foreigners." Then he met his first Wing Chun teacher in Guangzhou's Haizhu district and never looked back.

"Three months into the training I was put into my first competition. I had to face fighters from a police team, but I won. Since learning Wing Chun I've never felt the need to learn any other art form," King says.

He later set up a martial arts studio with fellow Wing Chun practitioners and found himself facing up to 15 students a time. Everyone there was Chinese and about 70 percent of the students were women, King says.

"Wing Chun is named after a legendary woman fighter who started it and often seen as a more feminine kind of thing. But it is actually a very clever way of fighting and self-defense," he says.

"It doesn't rely on strength, which is very good because by Western standards I'm not a big guy. It relies on body mechanics like getting the right angles to generate more strength. It teaches you to know how the person is going to attack so that you know how to defend before they are going to attack. It also teaches you to lead the person how to attack so then you know what is going on. In Wing Chun I can stand in a certain way or move in a certain way that will limit your options.

"Wing Chun is a self-defense art, for rich Chinese people back in the days when they didn't have to work so much and when they would visit restaurants or the equivalent of bars."

Wing Chun skills have stood King in good stead on at least two occasions, he says. One was during a genuine bar brawl.

"It was then that I actually found out how good Wing Chun was. There was a foreign guy who started to beat a Chinese girl. I already had a few beers then and thought I'd play the hero," King says.

"So he attacked me and I punched him the same way I trained. I didn't think about it and I saw him fly back and I then I thought 'wow'. He comes back and this is why Wing Chun's good - he started swinging but we were in a bar. He was hitting everyone around except me."

In a separate occasion in Shenzhen, King says he found himself fending off a group of more than 10 attackers together with a friend.

"This was in a rough part of town and the people were drunk and didn't like foreigners. My friend was also doing alright against them because he's a boxer," he says.

"But it's not like you're there for 10 minutes beating down one guy. You hit someone a couple of times and he's unconscious. You fight the second one and the third one by the time you get to the fourth one the first few have come back up and attacking you again. They later came back with swords and that's when I made a run for it.

"It can seem fun to talk about it now, like how you see it in the movies, but it was life threatening then. I count myself very lucky to have gotten out of that."

The Brit says it is heartening to know interest in Wing Chun is seeing a revival from the success of recent kungfu movies like Ip Man and its sequel. Ip Man is popularly known as a teacher of Bruce Lee.

"Bruce Lee's foundation was certainly Wing Chun. The 'Jeet' in his Jeet Kune Do style is actually a concept from Wing Chun that means 'to intercept'," King says.

King, who works full time as a manager for a major English language school in Guangzhou, estimates there are less than 10 major proponents of Wing Chun teaching the style to about 10 long-term students each in Guangzhou. He considers himself a mid-level practitioner and traces his techniques to the same ones taught to Ip Man.

King had to wind down his studio recently because of job commitments, but he still practices Wing Chun regularly with friends and trains with his wooden dummy at home every day. He also takes on private students occasionally.

The martial art helps him stay disciplined in his work and life, King says. He now avoids alcohol.

"You learn to tolerate a lot of things and push yourself. It keeps me generally fit. I think for a 31-year-old I look better than most of my colleagues at 30. Most of them are going bald and growing fat."

King also believes he learned how to speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese from practicing Wing Chun.

"The best way to learn any language is to get into that environment. And martial arts gave me that environment," he says.

I'd love to meet Joe someday, regardless of his opinion. In my position, I must tolerate lots of opinions. Case and point - this forum...:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

I just needed a place to post this:


I'd love to meet Joe someday, regardless of his opinion. In my position, I must tolerate lots of opinions. Case and point - this forum...:rolleyes:

owned :eek:

[Lucas]

the coolest thing about joe rogan? news radio :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You just proved my point. TCMA has plenty of grappling!

This from the guy who says the best way to defend a double leg is the lethal palm strike to the top of the head.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is very easily resolved.
Any TCMA willing to step up and show Joe that he is wrong?
I am sure that if he had made that comment about MT or Judo or BJJ or Karate that there would be a number of people willing to enlighten him.
Anyone?

[Lucas]

nope. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope. :eek:

I am shocked, shocked I say !

[Frost]

This is very easily resolved.
Any TCMA willing to step up and show Joe that he is wrong?
I am sure that if he had made that comment about MT or Judo or BJJ or Karate that there would be a number of people willing to enlighten him.
Anyone?

stop being a smart ar$e

[sanjuro_ronin]

stop being a smart ar$e

Bask in the uberness of my highly intelligent buttocks !

[Frost]

Bask in the uberness of my highly intelligent buttocks !

cheers i laughed so loud then i woke my dog up! she was not impressed

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny thing is that TCMA has a rich tradition of "stand up" for itself ( supposedly).
What has happened to TCMA ? have they become the "sick men of the MA" ?

I recall that I had to enlighten a few guys once about how effective TMA were, unfortunately I gave up beating people to a pulp a while ago and add to that that what I do is nothing but "glorified kickboxing" I don't think I would be the person for the job BUT I am SURE there must be SOME authentic TCMA that could save the honour of our beloved Shaolin temple !!
Anyone?

[Frost]

Funny thing is that TCMA has a rich tradition of "stand up" for itself ( supposedly).
What has happened to TCMA ? have they become the "sick men of the MA" ?

I recall that I had to enlighten a few guys once about how effective TMA were, unfortunately I gave up beating people to a pulp a while ago and add to that that what I do is nothing but "glorified kickboxing" I don't think I would be the person for the job BUT I am SURE there must be SOME authentic TCMA that could save the honour of our beloved Shaolin temple !!
Anyone?

well i imagine the likes of WSL, Yip sui, CLC, most of the CLF and Lama guys would have stepped up.....afterall they made their names in (gosh) challange matches against other styles in a limited rules enviroment (doesnt that sound a bit like modern day MMA)

makes you wonder why those that claim lineages from the above now wont do what they did and step up and fight but look down on it as unworthy

[Lucas]

well just because the forefathers of certain styles built that reputation for their respective disciplines, doesnt mean that the current generations are doing the same thing. some times riding on coat tails is an art in and of itself. :eek:

[diego]

well i imagine the likes of WSL, Yip sui, CLC, most of the CLF and Lama guys would have stepped up.....afterall they made their names in (gosh) challange matches against other styles in a limited rules enviroment (doesnt that sound a bit like modern day MMA)

makes you wonder why those that claim lineages from the above now wont do what they did and step up and fight but look down on it as unworthy my younger CLF buddy who does BM part time has been doing BJJ full time for two years with one of Marcus Soarez's BB's...unless my buddy does steroids he will never beat me with JJ...I could use just karate techniques from my old kajukenbo forms and dude wouldn't stand a chance i got six inches and thirty pounds on him and I smoke. the thing is I knew how to fight before learning any martial arts it's in my family to kick the **** out of each other going back to when my Great-Grandpa boxed in the Olympics over seventy years ago. TMA makes my fighting posture more stable, MMA gives me a chance to spar and see if I'm really stable I smoke and am 34 I'm not wasting my time entering a ring risking six months off from a possible injury, besides when he were young we ratpacked dudes like 7 14 year olds stomping two thirty year olds it's not impressive to me to give a guy a concussion in the ring lol I revoked violence the last time I kicked my older brother in the head talking **** while drunk, it made me feel like a animal :o lol I know how to use Gung Fu as much as I can box and wrestle it's not that big a deal.

I think rascism is the main reason some TMA's haven't stepped up. I mean it's not like Thai fighters from Thailand win ufc it's always black and white guys who use thai boxing, China didn't open up untill Nixon in the 70's and I know Bak Mei is only open to students who have put in close to ten years...there is like 17 Gung fu styles in BM it's a lot of work.

[diego]

This is very easily resolved.
Any TCMA willing to step up and show Joe that he is wrong?
I am sure that if he had made that comment about MT or Judo or BJJ or Karate that there would be a number of people willing to enlighten him.
Anyone?

are you implying there is no giant africans that know TMA's?:D I wish andre the giant was alive so I could teach him Wing Chun and then he can slap joe in his stupid face...a history in tkd and then you do roids so you can actually use bjj is not that impressive it's kinda gaye really.;):p


Button says on 16/Jul/11
Ooooops, I was way off. For some reason I always thought he was like 6'0". Now I have looked back at him again properly, I can clearly see he's nowhere near 6'0" at all. I reckon he looks noticeably below average for a man. How on Earth did I see 6'0" for him before? I'm a bit of an idiot I guess. This listing seems about right to me. I think if he stood with Rob, he would be a little shorter. I don't see him being above 5'8" and certainly not the 5'8.5" he claims.


lmfao dude set up the fight I'm six foot four joe is only 5 foot 8 **** it i'l smoke and won't do cardio for two weeks before the event, it will give joe a chance to cake up on steroids.

http://www.celebheights.com/s/Joe-Rogan-1194.html

[diego]

and people wonder why Rogan has this opinion of TCMA....

so I don't know BJJ at all right?.:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

my younger CLF buddy who does BM part time has been doing BJJ full time for two years with one of Marcus Soarez's BB's...unless my buddy does steroids he will never beat me with JJ...I could use just karate techniques from my old kajukenbo forms and dude wouldn't stand a chance i got six inches and thirty pounds on him and I smoke. the thing is I knew how to fight before learning any martial arts it's in my family to kick the **** out of each other going back to when my Great-Grandpa boxed in the Olympics over seventy years ago. TMA makes my fighting posture more stable, MMA gives me a chance to spar and see if I'm really stable I smoke and am 34 I'm not wasting my time entering a ring risking six months off from a possible injury, besides when he were young we ratpacked dudes like 7 14 year olds stomping two thirty year olds it's not impressive to me to give a guy a concussion in the ring lol I revoked violence the last time I kicked my older brother in the head talking **** while drunk, it made me feel like a animal lol I know how to use Gung Fu as much as I can box and wrestle it's not that big a deal.

I think rascism is the main reason some TMA's haven't stepped up. I mean it's not like Thai fighters from Thailand win ufc it's always black and white guys who use thai boxing, China didn't open up untill Nixon in the 70's and I know Bak Mei is only open to students who have put in close to ten years...there is like 17 Gung fu styles in BM it's a lot of work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


seriously, the stuff you state sometimes is like a cluster fuk of idiots wandering around bumping into walls.

[Hardwork108]

Haha funny.

Not in the interpretation of grappling it doesnt delve into the many layers of it.
And there are many layers in Chin-na/Kum-La that BJJ and Western Wrestlers would not be able to imagine.

Food for thought......



Having a bland overview does not constitute a well versed understanding of clinch or grappling. But go ahead and keep trying to convince yourself otherwise.
Back at you and all who think like you. You guys Joe Rogan included, criticise the TCMA based on what you know about BJJ and Western Wrestling, not based on any intimate knowledge of the TCMAs.

Try to understand the wisdom in the above statement and you will be enlightened forever. ;)

[Hardwork108]

I just needed a place to post this:


I'd love to meet Joe someday, regardless of his opinion. In my position, I must tolerate lots of opinions. Case and point - this forum...:rolleyes:

Thank you for posting the above story. It is very relevant to what is being discussed here. The Brit in the story went to the source to find the authentic kung fu. If he had looked hard enough though, he would have found it in the UK as well, but he did not cut corners, he went to China and after some trials and errors (in the beginning) he found the right style and the right teacher.

What he studied not only has changed and improved his life, but also works for him combat wise speaking, so much so that he does not even feel the need to train other styles of kung fu.

Of course, his story will soon be forgotten by the posters here and we will continue hearing about the greatness of UFC style training and the supposed "weakness" of TCMAs, usually by people who have not had 2 months of authentic traditional kung fu training under a master from an authentic lineage.

Yes, nowadays patience is a virtue. ;)

[Hardwork108]

This from the guy who says the best way to defend a double leg is the lethal palm strike to the top of the head.:rolleyes:

Actually, it was defense against a single leg take down.

I know that among the "kung fu" tagged MMA-ists, the notion of effective palm strikes is seen as fantasy, but that has more to do by the fact that the "kung fu" tagged posters have never really practicied authentic TCMAs, so they would not be able to apply an effective palm strike if their lives defended on it.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with not being able to apply effective palm strikes. Afterall, you are not really a TCMA-ist, but the problem is that, just like our friend Joe Rogan, not having a clue as to how a given system of MA works, never stops you from badmouthing it!

[Hardwork108]

This is very easily resolved.
Any TCMA willing to step up and show Joe that he is wrong?

The fact is that Joe is WRONG. Wether anyone steps up or not, is not going to change that fact.

On the other hand, if he really means what he says, then he should perhaps take a trip to China - the cradle of kung fu - and issue an open no-rules challenge. There is a good chance some of the kwoons and temples will oblige.

Perhaps he will beat up all of the challengers and become even richer and more famous than he is now, or he might just end up on a Beijing to US flight with his @ss sitting on the seat next to him in the plane?



I am sure that if he had made that comment about MT or Judo or BJJ or Karate that there would be a number of people willing to enlighten him.

The problem is that they would perhaps want to enlighten him in a sports arena, which is where his style is more effective.

[Hardwork108]

well i imagine the likes of WSL, Yip sui, CLC, most of the CLF and Lama guys would have stepped up.....afterall they made their names in (gosh) challange matches against other styles in a limited rules enviroment (doesnt that sound a bit like modern day MMA)

makes you wonder why those that claim lineages from the above now wont do what they did and step up and fight but look down on it as unworthy

I know kung fu sifus personally that would gladly send you to the nearest emergency room if you challenged them, but they do not believe in sports fighting, nor do they encourage their students to do it, even if they do not dissuade them from accepting challenges.

What I said above is a fact, but as always, you are free to ignore it.

[diego]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


seriously, the stuff you state sometimes is like a cluster fuk of idiots wandering around bumping into walls. what do u find confusing all I said is joe rogan is a ***e n frost proly sucks at kf.

[Frost]

my younger CLF buddy who does BM part time has been doing BJJ full time for two years with one of Marcus Soarez's BB's...unless my buddy does steroids he will never beat me with JJ...I could use just karate techniques from my old kajukenbo forms and dude wouldn't stand a chance i got six inches and thirty pounds on him and I smoke. the thing is I knew how to fight before learning any martial arts it's in my family to kick the **** out of each other going back to when my Great-Grandpa boxed in the Olympics over seventy years ago. TMA makes my fighting posture more stable, MMA gives me a chance to spar and see if I'm really stable I smoke and am 34 I'm not wasting my time entering a ring risking six months off from a possible injury, besides when he were young we ratpacked dudes like 7 14 year olds stomping two thirty year olds it's not impressive to me to give a guy a concussion in the ring lol I revoked violence the last time I kicked my older brother in the head talking **** while drunk, it made me feel like a animal :o lol I know how to use Gung Fu as much as I can box and wrestle it's not that big a deal.

I think rascism is the main reason some TMA's haven't stepped up. I mean it's not like Thai fighters from Thailand win ufc it's always black and white guys who use thai boxing, China didn't open up untill Nixon in the 70's and I know Bak Mei is only open to students who have put in close to ten years...there is like 17 Gung fu styles in BM it's a lot of work.

i can tell you smoke from your writting:confused:

[Frost]

so I don't know BJJ at all right?.:rolleyes:

i dont think you know much at all about sport fighting, but im just judging you by your rambling posts........:eek:

[Frost]

what do u find confusing all I said is joe rogan is a ***e n frost proly sucks at kf.

and it took you half a page of c^ap to try to get that point accross seriously put the special smokes down ok

[diego]

Lol im typn on a flip phone the topics not deep enough to post commas n ****..I thought I made a good point you dont see any ethnic thai fighters in the ufc maybe that has something to do with why Aikido has never stepped into the cage. Lol in most trapping isnt it implied your opp is wearing sleeves giving you something to latch onto for an arm trap wheras ufc fights in underwear. I did think it was funny rogan dissed black taoist in that vid when he mentioned the two black guys from NY.

[Dragonzbane76]

And there are many layers in Chin-na/Kum-La that BJJ and Western Wrestlers would not be able to imagine.

imagine is the right word you used. It pretty well sums up the fantasy you seem to have that TCMA has some ground fighting ability which has never been presented or captured or recorded in anyway, but please if you do find some please post it.


Back at you and all who think like you. You guys Joe Rogan included, criticise the TCMA based on what you know about BJJ and Western Wrestling, not based on any intimate knowledge of the TCMAs.

Love how you blanket statement everyone. first off I hate joe rogan and could care less about his ability or what he says about WC or whatever. I'm not criticising the TCMA i'm pointing out a fact. they do not have ground. As for BJJ/JJ/Wrestling which strickly study the grappling environment, they would have this "intimate" knowledge base before TCMA would when looking at it in the light of common sense. But alas common sense is a forgone conclusion with you.

[Hardwork108]

imagine is the right word you used. It pretty well sums up the fantasy you seem to have that TCMA has some ground fighting ability which has never been presented or captured or recorded in anyway, but please if you do find some please post it.
The fantasy and imagination are all yours, as you and others of your persuasion can only guess what exists or does not exist in the TCMAs, because you have never really practiced them in a genuine manner.



Love how you blanket statement everyone. first off I hate joe rogan and could care less about his ability or what he says about WC or whatever. I'm not criticising the TCMA i'm pointing out a fact. they do not have ground. As for BJJ/JJ/Wrestling which strickly study the grappling environment, they would have this "intimate" knowledge base before TCMA would when looking at it in the light of common sense. But alas common sense is a forgone conclusion with you.

The "fact" that you point out that dictates that there is no ground fighting in the TCMAs will be disputed by the likes of Mike Patterson, Wong Kiew Kit and numerous others, not to mention my own Wing Chun sifu.

So again, it is illogical to judge the whole of the TCMAs based on what you have NOT seen in sports tournaments, as well as what you have NOT practiced in a genuine kwoon!

[Dragonzbane76]

The fantasy and imagination are all yours, as you and others of your persuasion can only guess what exists or does not exist in the TCMAs, because you have never really practiced them in a genuine manner.

you going to find that clip of CMA ground fighting? I emplore you to find it and prove me wrong.


The "fact" that you point out that dictates that there is no ground fighting in the TCMAs will be disputed by the likes of Mike Patterson, Wong Kiew Kit and numerous others, not to mention my own Wing Chun sifu.

So again, it is illogical to judge the whole of the TCMAs based on what you have NOT seen in sports tournaments, as well as what you have NOT practiced in a genuine kwoon!

There are all kinds of people out there that think they know the mythical limits of the universe. And then again there all kinds out there that are just crazy.

again give me some clips or some proof. It's all I ask. Hell I'll even take one of your fully documented 100% youtube vids. that must be true because it's on youtube.

[Hardwork108]

you going to find that clip of CMA ground fighting? I emplore you to find it and prove me wrong.


There are all kinds of people out there that think they know the mythical limits of the universe. And then again there all kinds out there that are just crazy.

again give me some clips or some proof. It's all I ask. Hell I'll even take one of your fully documented 100% youtube vids. that must be true because it's on youtube.

It seems that the word of respected masters such as Mike Patterson are not good enough for you.

Yes, some TCMAs cover the ground scenario and grappling and train it. Here YET AGAIN is a clip of Tiger stylists doing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JYhJJXZr8

I am sorry that it is on Youtube, because you do not approve of it, but perhaps if you check Google Videos, you will find it there too, in which case you will be satisfied.....:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

we've already covered this video of tiger "grappling"

I'm not going to repeat my statements about it. Look back at the other thread for my thoughts.

[Frost]

I know kung fu sifus personally that would gladly send you to the nearest emergency room if you challenged them, but they do not believe in sports fighting, nor do they encourage their students to do it, even if they do not dissuade them from accepting challenges.

What I said above is a fact, but as always, you are free to ignore it.

strange that I mean the Chinese held full contact competitions for century’s, even as late as 1928 in nanging they were holding full contact limited rules sports comps to find the best fighters in the country, the same thing happened in 1929 which David Ross posted about a while ago, got to wonder when the Chinese martial arts went from accepting and encouraging their fighters to compete in full contact limited rules sports comps to not believing in their value......probably about the same time they started teaching gullible westerners their super secret techniques which are too deadly to spar with

the above is fact, those competitions were held and well attended, but of course you are free to as usual ignore it

[Frost]

Lol im typn on a flip phone the topics not deep enough to post commas n ****..I thought I made a good point you dont see any ethnic thai fighters in the ufc maybe that has something to do with why Aikido has never stepped into the cage. Lol in most trapping isnt it implied your opp is wearing sleeves giving you something to latch onto for an arm trap wheras ufc fights in underwear. I did think it was funny rogan dissed black taoist in that vid when he mentioned the two black guys from NY.

thailand has it own native sports competition which they compete in and love, they dont have any love for MMA as far as i can see, also the lighter weights have only just been allowed into the UFC dont get too many middle or heavyweight thai's so hats another reason, but its also totally off point........

Thai boxing is well represented in the cage, its a style not an ethnic group we are talking about, no one is saying look the chinese arent in the cage, what Rogan is saying is the chinese arts dont do well and arent not well represented, and they dont and arent, nothing stopping you as a white man using your chinese fighting skills in the cage to prove him wrong

[diego]

you going to find that clip of CMA ground fighting?


The guy who taught Kajukenbo to my first teacher in the 70s knew about judo wrestling and muay thai plus he was Philipino so he had extensive knowledge of those arts. They practiced forms because that is what was in the style they were doing it doesnt mean that when they sparred they didnt wrestle its just that it was mostly Karate tournaments back in the 70s so we only have video of stand up sparring. The science of grappling has come along way since the early days of UFC Im sure everyone is better now than in the 70s but it doesnt mean that the idea of moving through the ranges wasnt there. CMA has like 2000 weapon apps if you can swing a sword you can pull an arm bar the **** is not that deep. shrugs

[diego]

Frost UFC banned neck strikes lol Bak Meis first form has less than ten moves three are neck shots so really all I can do is use the footwork in the cage and that sucks because its all short range ging with arm grabs bil jee finger thrust to heart punch then finish with neck strikes and then repeat on the other side that is Jik Bo the main BM power drill. Hop ga techs are completly banned also the theory is u keep throwing cheap shots to diff spots like kick the groin run behind and punch the kidney and then hammer the spine all banned tactics but that is what the hop ga large stance is meant for..full power dirty strikes using angles to sneak in. So all I got left is karate from kajukenbo and thats been done so maybe they would let me use bak mei staff so I can rep CMA as a white man lol. If China was as open as Thailand maybe whites would be better at gung fu and use it like MT like no one knows shiao jiao in Canada of course its not represented in the UFC I only first heard about it like ten years ago .

[TenTigers]

does anybody really give a ratz azz what Seth Rogan says? He knows squat about TCMA, and frankly, he has had zero impact on enrollment in TCMA schools.
The Yip Man movie has done more for people's interest in WC than anything he can say or do.

[goju]

Frost UFC banned neck strikes lol Bak Meis first form has less than ten moves three are neck shots so really all I can do is use the footwork in the cage and that sucks because its all short range ging with arm grabs bil jee finger thrust to heart punch then finish with neck strikes and then repeat on the other side that is Jik Bo the main BM power drill. .

Why cant you just preform those attacks to the neck to a legal target instead?

thats what ive done with my karate and tkd if there was an application that was in an illegal spot

[Dragonzbane76]

does anybody really give a ratz azz what Seth Rogan says? He knows squat about TCMA, and frankly, he has had zero impact on enrollment in TCMA schools.
The Yip Man movie has done more for people's interest in WC than anything he can say or do.

exactly my first thoughts. He's a douchbag. who cares, and why should they care.

[Hardwork108]

we've already covered this video of tiger "grappling" I'm not going to repeat my statements about it. Look back at the other thread for my thoughts.

This video was mainly covered by people such as yourself who have never practiced authentic TCMA methodologies. So, we are back at square one again, where the MMA-ists use their MMA (boxing, wrestling, MT, BJJ, etc.) knowledge as a base to bad mouth TCMA methodologies that they, themselves have absolutely no knowledge of! :rolleyes:

The fact of the matter is that you MMA guys (who for some reason insist on posting in KUNG FU forums) keep repeating that there is no ground fighting in the TCMAs. I have been saying for years that ground fighting is part of the traditional curriculum of the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practiced.

Sifu Mike Patterson has posted here saying that in the old days in Taiwan he practiced ground fighting in his Hsing I training and he was under the impression that most if not all schools at the time did so too.

However you and other MMA-ists such as yourself keep insisting that the ground fighting scenario is not covered by the WHOLE of the TCMAs, while you yourselves have never practiced kung fu for real!

Not only does ground fighting exist in the TCMAs, but it also does in Karate! So, I suggest that while you are posting in Kung fu forum, while not really having practiced it to any credible level, I recommend that you make your presence here a learning opportunity.

I know that this request is difficult to follow, because this forum is full of great egos with their accompanying "decades of experience" (apparently, in everything but authentic traditional kung fu), who do not admit to not knowing a single thing about a single MA out there, but again, I suggest you be different and be a better man and start learning stuff you don't know about lesser known aspects of the TCMAs!

[Hardwork108]

strange that I mean the Chinese held full contact competitions for century’s, even as late as 1928 in nanging they were holding full contact limited rules sports comps to find the best fighters in the country, the same thing happened in 1929 which David Ross posted about a while ago,

I got news for you, the Chinese martial arts are still being used in competitions. They are usually referred to Sanda, Sanshou (in some parts of New York, they are even referred to as San-Duh! (TM)...:D).

Also, many people in law enforcement, security industry, etc. still use TCMA techniques and training for REAL combat applications, and again, many sifus, will fight challenge matches if they are challenged!


got to wonder when the Chinese martial arts went from accepting and encouraging their fighters to compete in full contact limited rules sports comps to not believing in their value......probably about the same time they started teaching gullible westerners their super secret techniques which are too deadly to spar with
As I explained above, the Chinese martial arts's combat effectiveness is on display for all to see. Of course, you will see better if you had practiced them yourself?


the above is fact, those competitions were held and well attended, but of course you are free to as usual ignore it
What is fact is that you are not in the TCMA community, as you do not practice authentic kung fu, so obviously your "facts" are "different" from those of us in the know. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

so did you find that video of TCMA grappling?

We've already discussed tiger boy and hair pulling so lets try and move on to actual grappling. I know it's hard to find those vids. keep trying i'm sure you'll come up with something you "think" is grappling.


but it also does in Karate! never said it didn't mine was in reference to TCMA.

[Lucas]

I consider shuai jiao as a form of grappling. It just doesn't work all ranges..is it not consider tcma?? Maybe its not, I dunno.

I think wing Chun is ok for self defense, but would have to altar its training in order to truly be effective in mma. Wc rely too much on trapping and chi Sao. The dynamic of a mma fight makes trapping a minimal skill Seton general. Try to do wing Chun trapping in a fight like that and u just going to end in clinch or with a takedown attempt. I think wing Chun jamming can be a good element to transition to clinch.

[Frost]

Frost UFC banned neck strikes lol Bak Meis first form has less than ten moves three are neck shots so really all I can do is use the footwork in the cage and that sucks because its all short range ging with arm grabs bil jee finger thrust to heart punch then finish with neck strikes and then repeat on the other side that is Jik Bo the main BM power drill. Hop ga techs are completly banned also the theory is u keep throwing cheap shots to diff spots like kick the groin run behind and punch the kidney and then hammer the spine all banned tactics but that is what the hop ga large stance is meant for..full power dirty strikes using angles to sneak in. So all I got left is karate from kajukenbo and thats been done so maybe they would let me use bak mei staff so I can rep CMA as a white man lol. If China was as open as Thailand maybe whites would be better at gung fu and use it like MT like no one knows shiao jiao in Canada of course its not represented in the UFC I only first heard about it like ten years ago .

so you are scre*ed because you cant kick the b*lls or hit the neck..thats it thats all you get from your bak mei? you cant say hit the head with a closed fist using the same mechanics or hit the body..must make sparring in your class a life or death event :eek:

Most whites :eek: learned thai boxing from thai boxers who came over here under a cloud (toddy sken etc) just like most whites learned kung fu from kung fu guys who came over, no difference what soever

and is amazing you cant use your hop gar in sparring but david rosses guys manage it............:rolleyes:

[R]

What is fact is that you are not in the TCMA community, as you do not practice authentic kung fu, so obviously your "facts" are "different" from those of us in the know. ;)


Just out of interest, where did you find this information? Frost's profile lists 10 years of Southern arts training.. I know he studied with a famous sifu here in the UK for a long time before moving on to his present pursuits. What makes you able to judge his skill/knowledge/background?

FWIW

R

[Frost]

I got news for you, the Chinese martial arts are still being used in competitions. They are usually referred to Sanda, Sanshou (in some parts of New York, they are even referred to as San-Duh! (TM)...:D).

Also, many people in law enforcement, security industry, etc. still use TCMA techniques and training for REAL combat applications, and again, many sifus, will fight challenge matches if they are challenged!


As I explained above, the Chinese martial arts's combat effectiveness is on display for all to see. Of course, you will see better if you had practiced them yourself?


What is fact is that you are not in the TCMA community, as you do not practice authentic kung fu, so obviously your "facts" are "different" from those of us in the know. ;)

wait a minute a moment ago werent you arguing tcma master looked down on sports fighting and wont let their students take part...now you are pushing sanda as the be all and end all....i would point out the double standards here, not to mention the fact sanda and san shou is pretty much dead in the west and thai boxing, K1 and the UFC are where you should be going to test your skills, but im very tired after spending close to 7 hours this weekend with one of the most sort after wrestling coaches in MMA and I saw him demonstrate again and again those things you see as unique and special in your TCMA, short shocking power, sinking ability, the ability to listen with his whole body so on and so on and to be honest i cant be bothered so have fun in your training :)

[Frost]

Just out of interest, where did you find this information? Frost's profile lists 10 years of Southern arts training.. I know he studied with a famous sifu here in the UK for a long time before moving on to his present pursuits. What makes you able to judge his skill/knowledge/background?

FWIW

R

i believe i also managed to train a little bit with a very good bak mei and southern dragon sifu...might get to train again with him this weekend if he doesnt mind me popping along :)

[Robinhood]

Their is a saying for all these guys that talk to much, like Rogan and some of those other promoters. "The Empty Vessel Bellows Loudest"

[TenTigers]

I consider shuai jiao as a form of grappling. It just doesn't work all ranges..is it not consider tcma?? Maybe its not, I dunno.
.
No, Shuai Jiao works all ranges-kicks, punches, throws and contrary to popular belief, they do have ground grappling. In my brief experience, I would say that BJJ has developed and refined its teaching methods, but SJ has many of the same
chokes, armbars, shoulder locks (kimuura/americana)etc.
You just have to find the right teacher.

[Frost]

No, Shuai Jiao works all ranges-kicks, punches, throws and contrary to popular belief, they do have ground grappling. In my brief experience, I would say that BJJ has developed and refined its teaching methods, but SJ has many of the same
chokes, armbars, shoulder locks (kimuura/americana)etc.
You just have to find the right teacher.

really thats not what most SJ guys say, one very famous SJ master carried a ring knife to deal with the ground and thats how a lot of his students say they would deal with a ground fighter stab them .....would like YKW's take on this since he knows a little about SJ :)

[Indrafist]

Frost UFC banned neck strikes lol Bak Meis first form has less than ten moves three are neck shots so really all I can do is use the footwork in the cage and that sucks because its all short range ging with arm grabs bil jee finger thrust to heart punch then finish with neck strikes and then repeat on the other side that is Jik Bo the main BM power drill. Hop ga techs are completly banned also the theory is u keep throwing cheap shots to diff spots like kick the groin run behind and punch the kidney and then hammer the spine all banned tactics but that is what the hop ga large stance is meant for..full power dirty strikes using angles to sneak in. So all I got left is karate from kajukenbo and thats been done so maybe they would let me use bak mei staff so I can rep CMA as a white man lol. If China was as open as Thailand maybe whites would be better at gung fu and use it like MT like no one knows shiao jiao in Canada of course its not represented in the UFC I only first heard about it like ten years ago .

There have been Hop Gar fighters testing in MMA, and they used the basic seed fists. You should know that Diego. Chris Hienztman and Varon Webb as examples. If TCMA wants to compete in that environment then they have to adjust and develop just as every other discipline has had to - or maybe not bother.

[TenTigers]

really thats not what most SJ guys say, one very famous SJ master carried a ring knife to deal with the ground and thats how a lot of his students say they would deal with a ground fighter stab them .....would like YKW's take on this since he knows a little about SJ :)
Nothing wrong with using a knife.
When I studied Kali (Sayoc) we did grappling with a knife.
I am not sure what you are saying, as I didn't see a post by YKW stating that SJ did not kick and punch, or that they didn't incorporate groundfighting.

[Hardwork108]

so did you find that video of TCMA grappling?

Yes. I posted it, but you are the one who did not see any grappling in that video.....LOL!


We've already discussed tiger boy and hair pulling so lets try and move on to actual grappling. I know it's hard to find those vids. keep trying i'm sure you'll come up with something you "think" is grappling.

You know very well that video was about a lot more than "hair pulling"! Anyway, here is some relevant Wing Chun practice. The lineage is different from that of mine which does train GROUND FIGHTING, but still it is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wing+chun+kung+fu+against++wr estling+and+grappling&aq=f

This one looks interesting::p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xaBmql3k8

.


.

[Hardwork108]

Just out of interest, where did you find this information? Frost's profile lists 10 years of Southern arts training.. I know he studied with a famous sifu here in the UK for a long time before moving on to his present pursuits. What makes you able to judge his skill/knowledge/background?

FWIW

R

The world and this forum is full of MMA-ists who bash the TCMAs but who claim years or decades of TCMA experience. Unless his "Southern arts" are a reference to South London MA of headbutting old ladies at bus stops and robbing their hand bags - which I doubt...:D:p

PS. The world and this forum are also full of "famous" sifus, while at the same time the same world is full of Mcdojos!;)

[Dragonzbane76]

first vid. well more of a shortcut to multi. vids.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wing+chun+kung+fu+against++wr estling+and+grappling&aq=f

flipped though a couple of them and noted that the people they had portraying the "grappler" were people of the same class. Not grapplers themselves. the stuff they were showing is the typical "answer" most TCMA present when confronted with the shot or clinch. dropping weight, pushing forward into lunge stance and trying to drop either elbows or whatever. Had the "master" showing a modified sprawl type of move in the one vid which isn't a bad way of dealing with it but still not addressing the issue of MOMENTUM. None of the vids had any insight into that. If your going to demo a defense against the shot/clinch then you should do so in real time. Not in slow motion format.

here is some defense for the takedown in full motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSHGKQwICaE

second vid you posted.
some unorthodox things that wouldn't work against a skilled person. I would like to see that same demo in full motion with a resistant opponent that has some skill. the guy wasn't even in a guard postion, with his legs out loose, and letting the situation be dictated. which it was a demo i'll give it that. but fish hooking and pain application while on the ground is not a very favorable approach to controlling the opponent. I would also venture that if I looked into his background i would find he studied in a grappling art.

still waiting for that vid, your trying lets try and see if you can find one that is used against resistance. good luck. :p

[Hardwork108]

wait a minute a moment ago werent you arguing tcma master looked down on sports fighting and wont let their students take part...now you are pushing sanda as the be all and end all....
I never said that "TCMA look down on sports fighting"! The point I was making and trying to make for the past 6 or 7 years or so is that some traditional schools do not encourage their students to participate is sport fighting, but does not mean that their practionsers could not hand your asz to you if challenged!

Sanda is a fact of life. If you want to see kung fu in the SPORTS arena then I would encourage you to look into Sanda. You can even challenge some Chinese Sanda fighters if you like, or if you think that they are weak!



i would point out the double standards here,
The double standards you speak of, are a figment of your imagination just like the idea that TCMAs lack combat application and effectiveness!


not to mention the fact sanda and san shou is pretty much dead in the west
That fact may say much more about the West's understanding of Sanda, than the effectiveness of Sanda itself, which has been known to hand the asz's of MT and Kyokushinkai fighters back to them. Both sports as you will recall, "test" their skills in K1.....;)


and thai boxing, K1 and the UFC are where you should be going to test your skills,
See my above paragraph!


but im very tired after spending close to 7 hours this weekend with one of the most sort after wrestling coaches in MMA and I saw him demonstrate again and again those things you see as unique and special in your TCMA, short shocking power, sinking ability, the ability to listen with his whole body so on and so on and to be honest i cant be bothered so have fun in your training :)

LOL, it is not "shocking power", but Shock Power, in which the strikes penetrate to the internal organs. Are you saying that your wrestling has Southern Mantis style (NOT wing chun, etc,)shock power strikes?:eek: LOL!

[Hardwork108]

first vid. well more of a shortcut to multi. vids.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wing+chun+kung+fu+against++wr estling+and+grappling&aq=f

flipped though a couple of them and noted that the people they had portraying the "grappler" were people of the same class. Not grapplers themselves. the stuff they were showing is the typical "answer" most TCMA present when confronted with the shot or clinch. dropping weight, pushing forward into lunge stance and trying to drop either elbows or whatever. Had the "master" showing a modified sprawl type of move in the one vid which isn't a bad way of dealing with it but still not addressing the issue of MOMENTUM. None of the vids had any insight into that. If your going to demo a defense against the shot/clinch then you should do so in real time. Not in slow motion format.

here is some defense for the takedown in full motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSHGKQwICaE

second vid you posted.
some unorthodox things that wouldn't work against a skilled person. I would like to see that same demo in full motion with a resistant opponent that has some skill. the guy wasn't even in a guard postion, with his legs out loose, and letting the situation be dictated. which it was a demo i'll give it that. but fish hooking and pain application while on the ground is not a very favorable approach to controlling the opponent. I would also venture that if I looked into his background i would find he studied in a grappling art.

still waiting for that vid, your trying lets try and see if you can find one that is used against resistance. good luck. :p

I would say that perhaps you should enhance your TCMA understanding rather than just using you Wrestling ones to understand what a kung fu master is teaching.

The issue was wether ground fighting training existed in the TCMAs. The videos, my testitmony and that of sifu Mike Patterson, should have answered that question a long time ago.

[Dragonzbane76]

I would say that perhaps you should enhance your TCMA understanding rather than just using you Wrestling ones to understand what a kung fu master is teaching.
I tell it how i see it. I have nothing against TCMA, study in it and use many different aspects in my approaches to teaching. There are gaping holes in the rounded spectrum of it's structures. (some would disagree with me, that's fine) You don't agree with me fine. Not trying to change your mind. why i used the wrestling example is that they deal with takedown all the time, the whole system is based around defense against takedown. why not use something that deals specifically with a certain situation. They would know best. Sure everything can be modified to meet situations, wrestling has no strikes, therefore it needs modified when dealing with a broader spectrum. you don't see wrestlers that come into the full on areas of fighting bringing half a$$ striking defenses to the table, no they go were it is specified to learn.


The issue was wether ground fighting training existed in the TCMAs. The videos, my testitmony and that of sifu Mike Patterson, should have answered that question a long time ago.
didn't say it doesn't exist, only that it is a bland overview of something other systems specifically deal with. As for Mr. patterson I respect his views even though he has different approaches to things, but more over i repect that he went out and put his approaches to the test. I'm sure he's picked up things from others over the years, it's an ongoing process. He's learned in a resistant environment.

you call it cross training as if its a bad word, i call it learning to a fuller extent.

still waiting for that vid. :)

[Frost]

The world and this forum is full of MMA-ists who bash the TCMAs but who claim years or decades of TCMA experience. Unless his "Southern arts" are a reference to South London MA of headbutting old ladies at bus stops and robbing their hand bags - which I doubt...:D:p

PS. The world and this forum are also full of "famous" sifus, while at the same time the same world is full of Mcdojos!;)

lol true i dont claim to be good, but i do know i have been lucky with my coaches and sifu, I judge my TCMA sifu on what they could do to me, and the respect they got in the chinese and hakka community here in the UK, i have been lucky enough to train for years under a master, who regardless of what others said of him was always asked to demo and attend Hakka gatherings here in the UK, my other sifu who i spent no where near as much time with is a senior student of another well respected master

My MMA and grappling coach was the first UK coach to have guys fighting in pride and the UFC, and my powerlifting coach is a current world record holder, so when i judge the above i feel i have a good base to do so, but again there's no point to this so you enjoy your training :)

[diego]

amazing you cant use your hop gar in sparring but david rosses guys manage it............:rolleyes: OMG thats not what I said..without the cheap shots from my TMA all I have left is karate-kajukenbo my moves come from a 5th degree bb in kyokushin.buddy Lyoto Machida already repd that TMA in the cage. you have to kick and punch with 100 % to make it hop ga combos bak mei you hit more relaxed and a bit quicker in both its best to hit cheap spots so you may get the chance to keep going. Mma uses a more balanced sparring tempo prodding with jabs and leg kicks. hop ga footwork uses knives so the dance is more aggressive. Take out that GING and all my **** looks like D. Ross' kickpunching lol it comes from weapons its killing footwork not sparring.obviously one has to be good at sparn. Did your wrassln coach teach you weapons in your seven hour seminar?. If I was to fight for cash I think I would like to do philipino stickfighting, kendo full contact would be a proper blast too.

[Kevin73]

A couple of points here. In the US, UFC=MMA. In other places, like the UK, wrestling isn't always the main base art as it is for many people in the US. The mix of MMA's has alot more TMA's in it from speaking with a couple people involved in MMA in the UK.

Second, there is a difference between 'ground fighting' and grappling. The two are often used interchangeably by some people, but defined different by others. Rogan shows his ignorance when he talks about how the two "kung fu guys" went to the ground and the one guy started hammer fisting the other. Uhh? How is that not TMA and only has to be MMA? Hammerfists weren't even used in the early MMA days until Sakuraba brought them into the mix fom his traditional background and everyone started to use them. Up to that point, all you saw was guys throwing weak ass hook punches from boxing because they didn't have any other tools.

Third, every technique IN MMA comes from a TMA. PERIOD You will not find something that is used in the ring/cage that wasn't found in a TMA first. It all comes down to the training methods for that ruleset. Arguing about which is better is just stupid.

Fourth, Rogan shows his racist attitude because every "kung fu" guy he imitaded was done with a bad "black accent". What's up with that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is that they would perhaps want to enlighten him in a sports arena, which is where his style is more effective.

If a system is not effective under limited rules, it won't be effective with NO rules.
To think otherwise is NOt logical, practical or demonstrative.


So...who then is going to take up the TCMA banner and enlighten Rogan and the un-educated MMA masses?
Anyone?

[Lucas]

No, Shuai Jiao works all ranges-kicks, punches, throws and contrary to popular belief, they do have ground grappling. In my brief experience, I would say that BJJ has developed and refined its teaching methods, but SJ has many of the same
chokes, armbars, shoulder locks (kimuura/americana)etc.
You just have to find the right teacher.

ok cool. I didn't know shuai jiao has ground fighting. So then shuai jiao and judo are pretty much the same. There are zero shuai jiao people here where I live :(

[Hardwork108]

I tell it how i see it.

To truly SEE something you (and other MMA-ists here) need to have genuine points of reference as regards the TCMAs - which you don't! That means you are not SEEING anything, even if you happen to be looking!


I have nothing against TCMA,
Again, to have something against the TCMAs, you will need to SEE them as they truly are, while understanding their true scope, which you don't!



study in it and use many different aspects in my approaches to teaching.

You teach TCMA "aspects"? :eek: LOL!


There are gaping holes in the rounded spectrum of it's structures.

How would you know? LOL!



(some would disagree with me, .......)

And they would be people who actually practice authentic TCMAs under genuine sifus?

Others who may disagree with you will be the actual kung fu sifus and masters who have dedicated their lives to TCMA practice, but what do they know, right? I mean it is not like they have blue belts in BJJ, right? LOL


You don't agree with me fine.
I do have an advantage over you in that I practice actual kung fu and I am more aware of its scope and the "rounded spectrum of its structures", while you don't!....;)


Not trying to change your mind.
Well, thank you for that. I mean that is all we the TCMA-ists need don't we, to come to KUNG FU forum and have MMA people trying to change our minds by telling us how the TCMAs are "ineffective".....LOL!


why i used the wrestling example is that they deal with takedown all the time, the whole system is based around defense against takedown. why not use something that deals specifically with a certain situation. They would know best.
The answer is simple. First of all, major kung fu styles - if taught/practiced correctly - deal with the takedown scenario in their own ways, which are many times not understood by non-TCMA practitioners such as yourself.

Secondly, there is no immediate need to cross train, if you are practicing a complete TCMA style in a CORRECT manner.

I say "there is no immediate need" to cross train, because when one eventually manages to train his complete TCMA style in a correct manner and then feels the need to enhance his arsenal, then he can do so in a logical and comprehensive manner rather than making clueless assumptions of perceived shortcomings of a system that he has no real grasp of.


Sure everything can be modified to meet situations, wrestling has no strikes, therefore it needs modified when dealing with a broader spectrum. you don't see wrestlers that come into the full on areas of fighting bringing half a$$ striking defenses to the table, no they go were it is specified to learn.

The fundamental point that you are missing is that wrestling is NOT a complete martial art, but major kung fu styles ARE!



didn't say it doesn't exist, only that it is a bland overview of something other systems specifically deal with.
How do you know that, if you have never practiced authentic kung fu and how all aspects and approaches complement each other.


As for Mr. patterson I respect his views even though he has different approaches to things, but more over i repect that he went out and put his approaches to the test.
The fact is that he is a TCMA-ist, an INTERNAL TCMA-IST at that!

I am sure that you have noticed that other MMA-ists here who claim "decades" of TCMA experience, don't even know what the Internals encompass! LOL!


I'm sure he's picked up things from others over the years, it's an ongoing process. He's learned in a resistant environment.
I have gathered that he does not like people to make assumptions about him. Suffice to say that sifu Patterson has said that in his days in Taiwan, the practice of ground fighting in kung fu schools was the NORM!


you call it cross training as if its a bad word, i call it learning to a fuller extent.
Cross training is only a bad word when the person who is cross training to "improve" his core TCMA style has not learned it to a fuller extent!


still waiting for that vid. :)
I am still waiting for you to acquire authentic TCMA knowledge so as to be able to appreciate the TCMA videos I keeping posting for you, just like the Tiger style ground fighting one that you are constantly failing to comprehend. ;)

[Hardwork108]

If a system is not effective under limited rules, it won't be effective with NO rules.
To think otherwise is NOt logical, practical or demonstrative.
If you adapt most TMAs for ring fighting and then carry out appropriate training, then they will be effective, but that does not change the fact that some TMA schools do not consider sports fighting as important, even if they still teach combat effectiveness.



So...who then is going to take up the TCMA banner and enlighten Rogan and the un-educated MMA masses?
Anyone?
I really could not care less, as far as I am concerned the TCMAs are effective combat systems and their effectiveness is not related to the number of TCMA-ists in sports competitions. Of course, as you know for those TCMA-ists who want to do that, there are always the Sanda competitions.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

@ Hardwork108

I have one even better. Why don't you, with your vast knowledge of true TCMA post a video of you sparring and using your methods, or you practicing your methods on a partner, or you doing anything YOURSELF that in anyway resembles the garbage you spew on here on a daily basis. Of course we all know you won't do that because you are a coward, a wannabe and what's most humoring is you are a hypocrite who likes to claim no one knows anything about TCMA except you yet not once in all my time on this forum have you ever produced a single shred of evidence that you even train.

I'm sure this will be followed up with more banterings about how I have never trained in real TCMA (good thing you are so knowledgeable of my teachers) along with examples of OTHERS who train and have produced good fighters, most of whom you have probably never even met, yet you will use them as examples as if that somehow makes you or what you believe work. You are sad and deluded and honestly man people should really pity you, I know I do.;)

[Hardwork108]

lol true i dont claim to be good, but i do know i have been lucky with my coaches and sifu, I judge my TCMA sifu on what they could do to me,
IMHO, you should go further and judge them on what they are willing to teach you. ;)

Also, you should consider wether their fighting ability (what they could do to you) is directly connected to their kung fu knowledge. ;)


and the respect they got in the chinese and hakka community here in the UK,

The respect they get in the Hakka community may not have anything to do with what they are willing to reveal to you or to most of their students.


i have been lucky enough to train for years under a master, who regardless of what others said of him was always asked to demo and attend Hakka gatherings here in the UK, my other sifu who i spent no where near as much time with is a senior student of another well respected master

Yet again, the world is full of people who are Masters and senior sifus, but again, the world is full of Mcdojos as well. So, there seems to be this mysterious paradox where these two groups exist on the same planet, where by the way, many such as yourself have no idea as regards the Internals and their various power/strength methodologies that do not involve weight training - or even TCMA aspects such as ground fighting.



My MMA and grappling coach was the first UK coach to have guys fighting in pride and the UFC, and my powerlifting coach is a current world record holder, so when i judge the above i feel i have a good base to do so, but again there's no point to this so you enjoy your training :)

I am sure that you are pretty good at MMA. So, enjoy your training too. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you adapt most TMAs for ring fighting and then carry out appropriate training, then they will be effective, but that does not change the fact that some TMA schools do not consider sports fighting as important, even if they still teach combat effectiveness.



I really could not care less, as far as I am concerned the TCMAs are effective combat systems and their effectiveness is not related to the number of TCMA-ists in sports competitions. Of course, as you know for those TCMA-ists who want to do that, there are always the Sanda competitions.

1st)
Sport combat competitions are nothing but the "competitive outcome" of the type of training done in MA that actually fight.
In other words, of a person studies a MA that involves ACTUAL fighting the training done would be similar enough that only minor modifications are needed to be competitive in something like "MMA fighting",case in point:
Kyokushin, Judo, MT, etc.

2nd)
Rogan didn't critique TCMA that actually fight in competative venues other than MMA.
His rightful critique was of those that PROFESS to be "combat effective" with NO evidence of such.

3RD)
No one is suggesting a "play by their rules" challenge, that would be silly.

Fact is that IF TCMA, in this case WC, is combat effective then the WC rep would be in his right to state the conditions under which he WOULD fight and if Joe, or anyone else, would back out then THEY would be the "waste of time".
Fact is also that before Joe waggled his big mouth, WC had been called outr a few times by MMA/BJJ guys and NO ONE has stood up to the plate.
The Gracies, if I recall, were open to a NO RULES match.
Fact is that in the MMA world you will NOT have a hard time finding someone willing to fight NO RULES.

So, who will be the person the bring back honour to WC ??
Anyone?

[Hardwork108]

@ Hardwork108

I have one even better. Why don't you, with your vast knowledge of true TCMA

You don't get it, do you? The issue has never been, and I have never claimed that I have "vast" knowledge of TCMAs, the issue is that you MMA-ists are hopelessly clueless as regards the TCMAs, hence making an intermediate kung fu student like me run circles around you in this forum. You guys know ziltch! What you need, and that in itself is not a problem as whatever you practice seems to work for you and make you happy. The problem is that you guys keep on insisting that the truly vast world of the TCMAs needs to practice the methodologies that work for YOU!


post a video of you sparring and using your methods, or you practicing your methods on a partner, or you doing anything YOURSELF that in anyway resembles the garbage you spew on here on a daily basis.

Please clarify what "garbage" it is that you are talking about? The "garbage" that says that the Internals exist? That the TCMAs take into account the take down and ground scenario? Or that in order for you guys to make sweeping criticisms and suggest "improvements" as regards the TCMAs, you need to actually have more than the at best superficial (I am really being kind here) knowledge that you seem to have?

Wow! Sorry to be so out of this world.....LOL!



Of course we all know you won't do that because you are a coward,
Yes, I was attacked by a video camera when I was a young kid and when it comes to being filmed I get scared.....:rolleyes:


a wannabe

You practice MMAs, but you insist on posting in a KUNG FU forum, and you are calling me a wannabe? LOL


and what's most humoring
What is humoring is the above....LOL!


is you are a hypocrite who likes to claim no one knows anything about TCMA except you
I never claimed that what I claimed is that in ordert to criticise,change, "improve", etc. kung fu, you need to have practiced it in an authentic manner to have created a multilevel understanding. That is having blue belts in BJJ does not qualify you for that. Wow, that sounds so illogical, doesn't it? LOL!


yet not once in all my time on this forum have you ever produced a single shred of evidence that you even train.
Yet others who have trained kung fu and even some sifus have said more or less the same things that I say.

It is only you the MMA-ists who insist on "enlightening" us TCMA-ists about the benefits of rolling on the ground for half an hour, each time we are attacked, or the "wisdom" Olympic weight training to improve our internals; or advising us on the "non-existance" of the internals - that get hot under the colar every time your "deep" TCMA "knowledge" is questioned.


I'm sure this will be followed up with more banterings about how I have never trained in real TCMA

The banterings are all yours as I was not even discussing anything with you.


(good thing you are so knowledgeable of my teachers) along with examples of OTHERS who train and have produced good fighters, most of whom you have probably never even met, yet you will use them as examples as if that somehow makes you or what you believe work. You are sad and deluded and honestly man people should really pity you, I know I do.;)

You, an MMA-ist, insist on posting in Kung fu forum, when your knowledge is limited to modern sports MA, and you pity me because I post in this TCMA forum; I practice TCMAs and hence know more than you?

Wow, we live in interesting times....LOL!

[Lucas]

doesnt wang chun boast in having one of the largest world wide bases of practitioners?

[sanjuro_ronin]

doesnt wang chun boast in having one of the largest world wide bases of practitioners?

WANG Chun ?
ROTFLMAO !!!

[Hardwork108]

1st)
Sport combat competitions are nothing but the "competitive outcome" of the type of training done in MA that actually fight.
In other words, of a person studies a MA that involves ACTUAL fighting the training done would be similar enough that only minor modifications are needed to be competitive in something like "MMA fighting",case in point:
Kyokushin, Judo, MT, etc.
You know, I agree with that. My WC sifu would agree too, but he still discourages participation in sports competitions, but he can fight!

So, the wisdom there is that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.


2nd)
Rogan didn't critique TCMA that actually fight in competative venues other than MMA.
His rightful critique was of those that PROFESS to be "combat effective" with NO evidence of such.

To me, the way he came across was that all TMAs are fantasy and ineffective.


3RD)
No one is suggesting a "play by their rules" challenge, that would be silly.

Fact is that IF TCMA, in this case WC, is combat effective then the WC rep would be in his right to state the conditions under which he WOULD fight and if Joe, or anyone else, would back out then THEY would be the "waste of time".
Fact is also that before Joe waggled his big mouth, WC had been called outr a few times by MMA/BJJ guys and NO ONE has stood up to the plate.
The Gracies, if I recall, were open to a NO RULES match.
Fact is that in the MMA world you will NOT have a hard time finding someone willing to fight NO RULES.

Tell me Paul, do you believe Wing Chun an effective fighting system?


So, who will be the person the bring back honour to WC ??

Those who train their Wing Chun to be combat effective will be good fighters, independent and after reaching a certain mindset, they will ignore the ignorant types, like our friend Joe. ;)

[Lucas]

WANG Chun ?
ROTFLMAO !!!

??
oh did i spell it wrong... my bad...here:

Wang Chung :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

??
oh did i spell it wrong... my bad...here:

Wang Chung :D

I don't care for Bullshido, but **** this vid cracks me up:D:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FJQ1ykn0M&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, I agree with that. My WC sifu would agree too, but he still discourages participation in sports competitions, but he can fight!

So, the wisdom there is that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.



To me, the way he came across was that all TMAs are fantasy and ineffective.



Tell me Paul, do you believe Wing Chun an effective fighting system?



Those who train their Wing Chun to be combat effective will be good fighters, independent and after reaching a certain mindset, they will ignore the ignorant types, like our friend Joe. ;)
Anyone?[/QUOTE]

First off, Joe's a twat, and he is full of it.

And yes, WC can be an effective system, there is no reason for it NOT to be.

I think you maybe missing my point.
There was a time that there would be a line up to show Joe how wrong he was, what happened to those times?
Does WC NOT have even one fighters capable of standing up for it?
Do you doubt that if Joe had said the same about MT or Kyokushin or Judo or BJJ or Boxing, that there wouldn't be at least quite a few guys willing to open his eyes about it?
My issue is this:
WTF has happened to TCMA that there is no one that is willing to stand up for them?

[Lucas]

I don't care for Bullshido, but **** this vid cracks me up:D:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FJQ1ykn0M&feature=related

i got no sound at work but that vid still made me lol

and YAY FOR JUDO!! :D :eek:

[Lucas]

WTF has happened to TCMA that there is no one that is willing to stand up for them?[/QUOTE]

i have a theory....:eek:

[YouKnowWho]

I don't care for Bullshido, but **** this vid cracks me up:D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FJQ1ykn0M&feature=related

I had asked this question in another thread, but nobody want to answer my question. Why is there so much resistence toward "cross training" in the WC community?

How hard can it be just to integrate "single leg", "double legs" into the current WC system? How can you counter both takedowns if you don't train it yourself?

For the amount of time that you have spent in this discussion, you may have "single leg" and "double legs" drills with your training partner over a 1,000 times already.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had asked this question in another thread, but nobody want to answer my question. Why is there so much resistence toward "cross training" in the WC community?

How hard can it be just to integrate "single leg", "double legs" into the current WC system? How can you counter both takedowns if you don't train it yourself?

Many believe they do, they think that by trying it one each other that it is the same thing as doing it against soemone that KNOWS how to do it.

Personally I think the issue is LACK of hard sparring WITH grappling.
If people do that the problems come up and the answers present themselves.

[Frost]

A couple of points here. In the US, UFC=MMA. In other places, like the UK, wrestling isn't always the main base art as it is for many people in the US. The mix of MMA's has alot more TMA's in it from speaking with a couple people involved in MMA in the UK.
?

actually UFC= MMA here in the uk as well , its more stand up based true but that stand up base is 90% kick boxing and Thai boxing NOT TMA or TCMA go to any local regional or national comp and its thai and boxing they use alongside BJJ and wrestling

[YouKnowWho]

Many believe they do, they think that by trying it one each other that it is the same thing as doing it against soemone that KNOWS how to do it.

Personally I think the issue is LACK of hard sparring WITH grappling.
If people do that the problems come up and the answers present themselves.

I think the responsibility is on the WC instructors. If the WC instructors brought grappling into their school. Their students won't have to look elsewhere.

[Hardwork108]

First off, Joe's a twat, and he is full of it.

No arguments from me there.


And yes, WC can be an effective system, there is no reason for it NOT to be.
That is exactly my point. So if you and I know that it is effective - or can be effective if trained properly, then why feel the need to prove it to a twat like Joe.


I think you maybe missing my point.
There was a time that there would be a line up to show Joe how wrong he was, what happened to those times?

I think the Mcdojos may have something to do with it, but also, I know kung fu fighters who would not need to prove anything to the likes of Joe, unless he actually went to them and challenged them.


Does WC NOT have even one fighters capable of standing up for it?
Perhaps if Joe had said the same thing on a visit to China, or if he had issued an open challenge there, who knows?



Do you doubt that if Joe had said the same about MT or Kyokushin or Judo or BJJ or Boxing, that there wouldn't be at least quite a few guys willing to open his eyes about it?

I think that even though he did not name these arts, he kind of implied that most of them were balloney also.



My issue is this:
WTF has happened to TCMA that there is no one that is willing to stand up for them?
I understand the issue, but the fact is that he is not too likely to get challenged in his part of the world. Perhaps he should put his money where his mouth is and go and challenged legit sifus, or again, issue an open challenge. Even better if he did it in China? The insentive for him would be that he would make a name (hence presumably money) for himself as a bad@ss.

My guess is that if he keeps on making comments like that, sooner or later someone might just challenge him, but personally speaking, I, and I am honestly speaking for myself, would not bother to challenge him, even if I could beat him with my hands tied behind my back. There is no point. I know that he is talking cr@p about a subject matter he has no knowledge of. So much so that most posters here believe him to be an idiot. Why waste time proving something you know to be right to an idiot?

[Hardwork108]

actually UFC= MMA here in the uk as well , its more stand up based true but that stand up base is 90% kick boxing and Thai boxing NOT TMA or TCMA go to any local regional or national comp and its thai and boxing they use alongside BJJ and wrestling

Wow, are you now saying that there is no stand up fighting in the TMAs, either? The plot thickens....LOL!

[Indrafist]

Wow, are you now saying that there is no stand up fighting in the TMAs, either? The plot thickens....LOL!

I read him as saying that there's probably noTMA or TCMA striking in UK MMA as it's all kick-boxing and Muya-Thai. MT is a TMA, but I accept his broader point - in broad terms i.e. I don't know of any specific TCMA striking training in UK MMA, although I've had no contact with UK MMA guys for a few years: I've no particular reason to doubt that what he says is true to the best of his knowledge and belief, so I'll accept it (provisionally) unless a reliable source says otherwise.

[Dragonzbane76]

HW.
really didn't read through your long spew about whatever. Really don't need to you just write the same things over and over so I get the jist.

anyways, your welcome to your opinion.... and that's all it is an OPINION. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

WTF has happened to TCMA that there is no one that is willing to stand up for them?

because people whom think that TCMA is some deep secret, and only those willing to throw themselves upon the mercy of a "master" will achieve it. I truely love the TCMA's but people like that keep this foul poison alive which pushes everyone else away. Prime example are very common here.

they've shot themselves in the foot with the hocus pocus show in the beginning, and then started believing the show itself was real.

[R]

You know, I agree with that. My WC sifu would agree too, but he still discourages participation in sports competitions, but he can fight!

Silly question I know but how do you know your sifu can fight? Not that I am questioning his ability, or even yours, since I have never met you or him but what criteria do you use to make such a statement? Is your knowledge gained from watching sparring in your classes? With students from other clubs? With sifu's from other clubs? Stories? Anecdotes from other teachers? What can you tell us to enlighten us? My first experience was when I went to my then teachers house to practice and he handed me some boxing gloves and introduced me to some guys from a different system. He said, by the way, you are fighting that guy over there is a second. Do you guys have challenge matches? Kwoon storming? What exactly provides you with such confidence? We had guys come in and ask to spar hard with the sifu and watched them get dropped. Is this the sort of experience you have to back up your claims? I know wing chun and chow gar guys who are happy to put on the gear and beat the snot out of other people without having any problem with doing it. Are you training in the US? UK? HK? Is there somewhere we can see guys from your school competing with anyone?

You are very confident. I respect that you have seen or done something to feel as you do. Would you care to share whatever it is/was with us

R

[Frost]

I read him as saying that there's probably noTMA or TCMA striking in UK MMA as it's all kick-boxing and Muya-Thai. MT is a TMA, but I accept his broader point - in broad terms i.e. I don't know of any specific TCMA striking training in UK MMA, although I've had no contact with UK MMA guys for a few years: I've no particular reason to doubt that what he says is true to the best of his knowledge and belief, so I'll accept it (provisionally) unless a reliable source says otherwise.

umm what he said, its a broad statement and im not at every show or watch every event on TV but I know a few people in the game and watch a fair bit, a fighter or a gym producing fighters with a TCMA base would become known because it would be unusual

ALan Orrs guys for example, and there was a tai chi guy (sammy something) a few years ago, its unusual enough that they get heard of very quickly, im not knocking TCMA or TMA just stateing that MMA in he UK is not much different from that in the USA, just our wrestling s&cks more lol

[Frost]

Wow, are you now saying that there is no stand up fighting in the TMAs, either? The plot thickens....LOL!

and this is why i say there's no point talking to you, you have an agenda and read everything from that agendas view point, i said nothing of the sort, i simply said there's not that much TMA or TCMA in MMA in the UK, or atleast no more than you see in the USA

I know there's stand up in TMA's because...guess what, i did stand up events during my TCMA days, you really should get out more :)

[Dragonzbane76]

R,

Everything you asked in your reply above has been asked of him hundreds of times on here. He will side step you with a vague answer. Good luck trying to get any answers or Vids.

[Hardwork108]

HW.
really didn't read through your long spew about whatever. Really don't need to you just write the same things over and over so I get the jist.

anyways, your welcome to your opinion.... and that's all it is an OPINION. ;)

The difference between me and you is that my OPINION of the TCMAs is based on actually practicing authentic traditional kung fu under genuine sifus, while your opinions of the TCMAs are based on you actually practicing modern MMAs.

See what I am getting at?

[Dragonzbane76]

Again your opinion. You absolutely know nothing of my past ergo your opinion. I wouldnt constitute training for a year with a teacher and then the teacher kicking u out a practice in longivity in the arts as with your past. (See its not nice for someone to think they know you just because they
Read something online)
Seriously my opinion is mine your not going to change it. I accept your a purist and your mind will not be changed, let it go.

[Hardwork108]

because people whom think that TCMA is some deep secret,
There are some secrets in the TCMAs, just like in any discipline. If you approach them with a multilevel mindset of study, then you will have better chance of comprehending what they encompass. Of course, you need to find someone who is actually qualified to teach you and that person has to be willing to cover all levels of the arts.



and only those willing to throw themselves upon the mercy of a "master" will achieve it.

Not at the mercy, but what I wrote above refers to learning from a master. The word "master" is not a dirty word and dispite the popular belief amongst the less educated members of the society, has nothing to do with being a "slave to a master"!

It simply means that to learn a given discipline you will need to learn from someone who has MASTERED it on multilevels. So, I guess if you ever wnat to be become a plumber, then it is best to learn from a master plumber. The same thing! Many PHDs that teach in elite universities, such as Harvard and Yale, are masters in their fields.




I truely love the TCMA's but people like that keep this foul poison alive which pushes everyone else away. Prime example are very common here.

Well, loving the TCMAs is a good starting point for you to finally start studying them seriously. It is not too late. ;)


they've shot themselves in the foot with the hocus pocus show in the beginning, and then started believing the show itself was real.
You lost me here. What part of what I have been saying here to find as "bogus"? LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

Actually that post wasnt directed at u. Someone above asked the question. But u fit the bill on it.

[Hardwork108]

Silly question I know but how do you know your sifu can fight? Not that I am questioning his ability, or even yours, since I have never met you or him but what criteria do you use to make such a statement? Is your knowledge gained from watching sparring in your classes? With students from other clubs? With sifu's from other clubs? Stories? Anecdotes from other teachers? What can you tell us to enlighten us? My first experience was when I went to my then teachers house to practice and he handed me some boxing gloves and introduced me to some guys from a different system. He said, by the way, you are fighting that guy over there is a second. Do you guys have challenge matches? Kwoon storming? What exactly provides you with such confidence? We had guys come in and ask to spar hard with the sifu and watched them get dropped. Is this the sort of experience you have to back up your claims? I know wing chun and chow gar guys who are happy to put on the gear and beat the snot out of other people without having any problem with doing it. Are you training in the US? UK? HK? Is there somewhere we can see guys from your school competing with anyone?

Nothing silly about your question. I will talk about Wing Chun because my main experience is in that. The sifu knows how to fight. He has had challenge matches and street fights. He refers to them occasionally to validate a certain way of dealing with an attack as opposed to another.

When (contact - no gloves) sparring with him, he will still run circles around the best of his students (I am not one of them yet - long story) and he will still manage to beat them without hurting them. The same with me. He can give you pain from impossibly short distances and not be there when you counter.

The man trains like around 5 hours a day. He is physical specimen. Finally, there is one ability I am proud and that is, calling BS when I see it. I have seen plenty in the MAs as I have been to plenty of schools as part of my own on going research into the TMAs - nothing academic, but rather born out of curiousity. So, there is no BS when either of my Sifus are concerned.

They just don't give the importance that many here in these forums give to sports tournament fighting, BUT they can fight and so can their advanced students.




You are very confident. I respect that you have seen or done something to feel as you do. Would you care to share whatever it is/was with us

R

I have seen special things in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun and in Mantis training which was an eye opener. I saw Internal power generation mechanisms and training methodologies that I have not seen anywhere and not anyone in this forum seems to know anything about them either, even if they claim "experience" in Chow Gar.

In Wing Chun (and Mantis) the principles of NOT going back during combat were hammered into me. I don't think that many TCMA practitioners apprecite the wisdom in such an approach, not to mention all the other skills/principles that have to be learned for it to function in order to finish an encounter after a short exchange.

There are a lot of "secrets", but most of them are not out of this world stuff, but well known approaches that many who claim TCMA experience have not learned in their Mc dojos.

One last point. My confidence does not come from thinking that I can beat anyone and I have never claimed superior fighting ability, but I am confident that the little I know of the TCMAs is genuine and effective.

I am also confident that many MMA ists here who have in the past cross trained at drop of a hat, would not have done so if they had experienced the genuine article as regards the TCMAs. :)

[Hardwork108]

Actually that post wasnt directed at u. Someone above asked the question. But u fit the bill on it.

Well if you gather and "master" your attention span for a few short moments, then you will see that I don't "fit the bill" on it!:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

Well if you gather and "master" your attention span for a few short moments, then you will see that I don't "fit the bill" on it!

Haha more than u know, more than u know.:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hw8 actually demonstrated a key point in what is wrong with TCMA nowadays when he answered hoe he knew His Sifu can fight:

The sifu knows how to fight. He has had challenge matches and street fights. He refers to them occasionally to validate a certain way of dealing with an attack as opposed to another.

When (contact - no gloves) sparring with him, he will still run circles around the best of his students (I am not one of them yet - long story) and he will still manage to beat them without hurting them. The same with me. He can give you pain from impossibly short distances and not be there when you counter.

The man trains like around 5 hours a day. He is physical specimen. Finally, there is one ability I am proud and that is, calling BS when I see it. I have seen plenty in the MAs as I have been to plenty of schools as part of my own on going research into the TMAs - nothing academic, but rather born out of curiousity. So, there is no BS when either of my Sifus are concerned.

They just don't give the importance that many here in these forums give to sports tournament fighting, BUT they can fight and so can their advanced students.


What we have here is classic:
Anectodal evidence.
Being able to easily defeat his OWN students.
Being in "great shape".

There is only ONE WAY to know whether some can fight and that is to see them fight someone that is a trained fighter.
Period.
If the person in question doesn't fight any longer, then the only way to know that they HAVE fought is a lot tougher of course BUT if they are a teacher then their students WILL fight ( fighters beget fighters) and so, the above criteria is still valid:
If His students fight against OTHER fighters and hold their own.

Anything else, is just, well, nothing at all really.

[Hardwork108]

and this is why i say there's no point talking to you, you have an agenda and read everything from that agendas view point, i said nothing of the sort, i simply said there's not that much TMA or TCMA in MMA in the UK, or atleast no more than you see in the USA

Yes, my "agenda" is to promote the TCMAs in a TCMA forum. Please sir, don't kill me for it.......:rolleyes:


I know there's stand up in TMA's because...guess what, i did stand up events during my TCMA days,

It seems that the irony of what I said was lost on you. The fact is that many times the MMA-ists will claim that the TCMAs do not take into account the ground scenario. When one attempts to enlighten them otherwise, the MMA-ists will then claim "decades" of (non-existent) TCMA experience. Then when one looks at some of their profiles, one sees that they train MT and/or Western Boxing for stand up. So, the implication is that "there is no stand up in TCMAs" either....get the irony? LOL!

This means that not only the "decades" of TCMA experience left them clueless as regards the ground fighting aspects of the TCMAs, but also, most of the MMA-ists have not grasped the particular aspects/principles and skills involved in effective stand up kung fu fighting.


you really should get out more :)

After having seen the TCMA cluelessness of martial artists claiming "decades" of TCMA "experience" - I am actually afraid to "get out more". I mean, what if what you guys have is catching !:eek:

[Hardwork108]

Hw8 actually demonstrated a key point in what is wrong with TCMA nowadays when he answered hoe he knew His Sifu can fight:


What we have here is classic:
Anectodal evidence.
Being able to easily defeat his OWN students.
Being in "great shape".

There is only ONE WAY to know whether some can fight and that is to see them fight someone that is a trained fighter.
Period.
If the person in question doesn't fight any longer, then the only way to know that they HAVE fought is a lot tougher of course BUT if they are a teacher then their students WILL fight ( fighters beget fighters) and so, the above criteria is still valid:
If His students fight against OTHER fighters and hold their own.

Anything else, is just, well, nothing at all really.

In the old days, when people had such doubts, they went and challenged the sifu in question.

Also, there is nothing anectodal about many sifus' challenge matches, unless one is calling them a liar.

In one his seminars he let an MMA-ist student (not his student) take him down and take him down HARD on a wooden floor - or "go to work on him", as one of the this forum posters who was present put it. He handled the guy pretty well. ;)

Look the man knows how to fight, but it is my word against those of people who have not met him, so this will go no where.

The point is that just because people don't fight in sports tournaments, does not mean that they can't fight. I am sure that on some level you agree with that, while we both know that there is less evidence if one does not fight in public events.

[Frost]

Yes, my "agenda" is to promote the TCMAs in a TCMA forum. Please sir, don't kill me for it.......:rolleyes:



It seems that the irony of what I said was lost on you. The fact is that many times the MMA-ists will claim that the TCMAs do not take into account the ground scenario. When one attempts to enlighten them otherwise, the MMA-ists will then claim "decades" of (non-existent) TCMA experience. Then when one looks at some of their profiles, one sees that they train MT and/or Western Boxing for stand up. So, the implication is that "there is no stand up in TCMAs"....get the irony? LOL!

This means that not only the "decades" of TCMA experience left them clueless as regards the ground fighting aspects of the TCMAs, but also, most of the MMA-ists have not grasped the particular aspects/principles and skills involved in effective stand up kung fu fighting.



After having seen the TCMA cluelessness of martial artists claiming "decades" of TCMA "experience" - I am actually afraid to "get out more". I mean, what if what you guys have is catching !:eek:

There was no irony, you simply mis read what I wrote and now cant man up and admit you are wrong so instead off you go on one of your tirades again. It’s sad really

But hey prove me wrong, just admit you didn’t read my post correctly :o)

[Hardwork108]

Haha more than u know, more than u know.:p

Well, at last we agree.....:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

There was no irony, you simply mis read what I wrote and now cant man up and admit you are wrong so instead off you go on one of your tirades again. It’s sad really

But hey prove me wrong, just admit you didn’t read my post correctly :o)

It seems that you do not have "decades" of experience in irony appreciation, EITHER....LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the old days, when people had such doubts, they went and challenged the sifu in question.

Also, there is nothing anectodal about many sifus' challenge matches, unless one is calling them a liar.

In one his seminars he let an MMA-ist student (not his student) take him down and take him down HARD on a wooden floor - or "go to work on him", as one of the this forum posters who was present put it. He handled the guy pretty well. ;)

Look the man knows how to fight, but it is my word against those of people who have not met him, so this will go no where.

The point is that just because people don't fight in sports tournaments, does not mean that they can't fight. I am sure that on some level you agree with that, while we both know that there is less evidence if one does not fight in public events.

Anecdotal means word of mouth dude, unless YOU saw those matches they were just that.
I read what happened at that seminar.
I think YOU see what you want to see my friend because I was told something not so quite the same.
But this isnt' really about You or Him, this is about the criteria used in most TCMA to judge is someone is a fighter.
My point is that it is NOT as good a criteria as that which is used in sport combat arts which is ACTUALLY fighting VA another trained fighter.

[Frost]

Im English, we have to deal with irony from an early age, it sets us up well for people like you :o)

Still doesn’t change the fact you simply cant admit you are wrong

It also seems you cant list your teachers, how long you trained or pretty uch anything else constructive for that matter :o)

[Hardwork108]

Im English, we have to deal with irony from an early age, it sets us up well for people like you :o)

So you have trained in irony for "decades" as well, just like you have in the TCMAs? LOL!


Still doesn’t change the fact you simply cant admit you are wrong
I have never had a problem admitting that I was wrong, but it is you who is wrong! I explained to you why I was being ironic, in a rather long post.


It also seems you cant list your teachers, how long you trained or pretty uch anything else constructive for that matter :o)
Hey you can list all your teachers if you want, but you still have no grasp of fundamental TCMA methodologies - it is all in your posts.

So, me listing teachers that you have no idea about, is not going to solve your problems - meaning, stop grasping at straws! :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Anecdotal means word of mouth dude, unless YOU saw those matches they were just that.

Word of mouth can be a lie, but it can also be the true. The fact is that you cannot judge someone's fighting ability soley based on performances in sports events.

In the past, when people had doubts about anecdotal evidence, they would sometimes test the person in question through a challenge. The problem is that most MMA-ists who badmouth the TCMAs would never take a trip to their local China Town to do so with a sifu of good standing. Instead they will use the "evidence" from sports tournaments when more often than not, the "TCMA-ist" who was handed his butt back, knew even less about the TCMAs than the MMA-ist who is using him as an example of Kung fu failure!

[Frost]

Word of mouth can be a lie, but it can also be the true. The fact is that you cannot judge someone's fighting ability soley based on performances in sports events.

In the past, when people had doubts about anecdotal evidence, they would sometimes test the person in question through a challenge. The problem is that most MMA-ists who badmouth the TCMAs would never take a trip to their local China Town to do so with a sifu of good standing. Instead they will use the "evidence" from sports tournaments when more often than not, the "TCMA-ist" who was handed his butt back, knew even less about the TCMAs than the MMA-ist who is using him as an example of Kung fu failure!

easily fixed, if you care that much about it...and god from the amount you post on the subject you must, you step up and prove the MMA crowd wrong, if you dont want to or dont care that much, why the h*ll do you post so much on the subject?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

easily fixed, if you care that much about it...and god from the amount you post on the subject you must, you step up and prove the MMA crowd wrong, if you dont want to or dont care that much, why the h*ll do you post so much on the subject?:confused:

I would say that you the MMA-ists are the ones who post "so much on the subject". This a Kung fu Forum and your (I mean the general MMA crowd in this forum) every other post seem to be telling us about the "shortcomings" of the TCMAs; the non-existance of the Internals; the non-existance of the ground fighting scenario and etc, etc. Comments made by people who obviously have never practiced authentic TCMAs in their lives and again spewed out in a KUNG FU FORUM.

WHY?:confused:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Nothing silly about your question. I will talk about Wing Chun because my main experience is in that. The sifu knows how to fight. He has had challenge matches and street fights. He refers to them occasionally to validate a certain way of dealing with an attack as opposed to another.

When (contact - no gloves) sparring with him, he will still run circles around the best of his students (I am not one of them yet - long story) and he will still manage to beat them without hurting them. The same with me. He can give you pain from impossibly short distances and not be there when you counter.

The man trains like around 5 hours a day. He is physical specimen. Finally, there is one ability I am proud and that is, calling BS when I see it. I have seen plenty in the MAs as I have been to plenty of schools as part of my own on going research into the TMAs - nothing academic, but rather born out of curiousity. So, there is no BS when either of my Sifus are concerned.

They just don't give the importance that many here in these forums give to sports tournament fighting, BUT they can fight and so can their advanced students.





I have seen special things in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun and in Mantis training which was an eye opener. I saw Internal power generation mechanisms and training methodologies that I have not seen anywhere and not anyone in this forum seems to know anything about them either, even if they claim "experience" in Chow Gar.

In Wing Chun (and Mantis) the principles of NOT going back during combat were hammered into me. I don't think that many TCMA practitioners apprecite the wisdom in such an approach, not to mention all the other skills/principles that have to be learned for it to function in order to finish an encounter after a short exchange.

There are a lot of "secrets", but most of them are not out of this world stuff, but well known approaches that many who claim TCMA experience have not learned in their Mc dojos.

One last point. My confidence does not come from thinking that I can beat anyone and I have never claimed superior fighting ability, but I am confident that the little I know of the TCMAs is genuine and effective.

I am also confident that many MMA ists here who have in the past cross trained at drop of a hat, would not have done so if they had experienced the genuine article as regards the TCMAs. :)

ROTLMAO, so your main focal point is a guy who you don't even train under!!:eek:

So all you rants about how no one here knows anything about training methods of TCMA and we're all from McKwoons or whatever and this guy you are using as your great example is not even your Sifu. Wow, that is pathetic on so many levels I can't even muster the words.

Also, got to love the comment about the "little I know of the TCMAs is genuine and effective". If one were to read your garbage they would think you have persued a lifetime of training in TCMA, with all your belittling and insulting of everyone you do not deem "worthy" of knowing what you know, which from the sounds of it, is next to nothing.:D

The reason I ask you to post evidence is quite simple. Any idiot can get on the computer and claim this and that, but you know what, evidence is what makes people give credit where credit is due. You like to insult myself and others and call us MMAists however it is quite easy from the videos I post and my website which is on my account that I do not teach or practice MMA, but when confronted with this fact you simply use your only arguement, "you guys are wrong because you don't know what I know". Fine, step up to the plate and show us how wrong we are.;)

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, at last we agree.....

In agreement that u "fit the bill" as stated in my previous statement. Glad to heat it.;)

[Hardwork108]

ROTLMAO, so your main focal point is a guy who you don't even train under!!:eek:

So all you rants about how no one here knows anything about training methods of TCMA and we're all from McKwoons or whatever and this guy you are using as your great example is not even your Sifu. Wow, that is pathetic on so many levels I can't even muster the words.

What I meant was that I am not an advanced student, but I have been training under my sifu, on and of for over 10 years!

Oh boy, the IQ level in this forum has gone down a 1000% since you MMA guys made your presence felt.....LOL!


Also, got to love the comment about the "little I know of the TCMAs is genuine and effective". If one were to read your garbage they would think you have persued a lifetime of training in TCMA, with all your belittling and insulting of everyone you do not deem "worthy" of knowing what you know, which from the sounds of it, is next to nothing.:D

I would not love my comment if I were you, because it MODESTLY says that the little TCMA that I know is AUTHENTIC and is infinitely more than what you know!


The reason I ask you to post evidence is quite simple. Any idiot can get on the computer and claim this and that, but you know what, evidence is what makes people give credit where credit is due. You like to insult myself and others and call us MMAists however it is quite easy from the videos I post and my website which is on my account that I do not teach or practice MMA, but when confronted with this fact you simply use your only arguement, "you guys are wrong because you don't know what I know". Fine, step up to the plate and show us how wrong we are.;)

And that will suddenly and miraclously make you knowledgable about the TCMAs which you have not managed to grasp, after "decades" of training? :confused:

[Hardwork108]

In agreement that u "fit the bill" as stated in my previous statement. Glad to heat it.;)

Except that my "bill" is different from yours.... ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

Of course, wouldnt want to degrade myself in such a manner. In agreement, glad to hear it.

[Hardwork108]

Of course, wouldnt want to degrade myself in such a manner. In agreement, glad to hear it.
In which manner would that be?

Besides, that ship may have already sailed as far as you are concerned.....

[Dragonzbane76]

In which manner would that be

The one state above of course. Im not going to repeat everything, do try and keep up with the conversation.

As for sailing ship yes mines still sailing while you are sinking in a sea of denile.

Seriously are we just going to trade insults back and forth?
As i said i accept u have a differing opinion than myself why cant u do like wise?

[Hardwork108]

As for sailing ship yes mines still sailing while you are sinking in a sea of denile.
Denial of what? There is ground fighting in the TCMAs - live with it!

Seriously are we just going to trade insults back and forth?
As i said i accept u have a differing opinion than myself why cant u do like wise?
I do and just like I stated, my opinions are based on authentic TCMA studies, while yours are not, as they are largely based on authentic MMA!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.lazypic.com/images/23061110_1005_StupidAnim.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

Denial of what? There is ground fighting in the TCMAs - live with it!
Im not repeating the whole conversation u jumped into when i answered someone else. And it was not about what u stated. Maybe if u would pay attention to the conversation and not worry about the insults u wish to throw at me u could keep up.

U training in tcma arts is your opinion because u have never showed any proof of any kind despite word of mouth to the stated.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.lazypic.com/images/23061110_1005_StupidAnim.jpg

What is the point of posting your photo when you are hiding your face?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

Im not repeating the whole conversation

You keep saying that but you keep engaging me in fruitless (for me) discussions.


U training in tcma arts is your opinion because u have never showed any proof of any kind despite word of mouth to the stated.

Proof for whom?

MMA-ists like yourself who would not know genuine TCMAs even if they fell on their heads? LOL,LOL,LOL!

MMA-ist who look confused everytime the Internal methodologies are mentioned? LOL!

MMA-ists who believe that the TCMAs do not train for the ground scenario? LOL!

Yes, I am really concerned about "proving" my TCMA training and its validity to "trespassing" MMA-ists, specially in a forum where actual TCMA sifus have acknowledged my kung fu understanding :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because of HW8 relentless, " I don't care what you think but I am here because I care what you think even though I don't care what you think", I salute him:
http://virilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Macri-Elena-V%C3%A9lez-10-640x425.jpg

http://virilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Macri-Elena-V%C3%A9lez-9.jpg

[Hardwork108]

Because of HW8 relentless, " I don't care what you think but I am here because I care what you think even though I don't care what you think", I salute him:

Actually, that describes Dragonballs more than it does me. BUT......
http://virilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Macri-Elena-V%C3%A9lez-10-640x425.jpg

http://virilemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Macri-Elena-V%C3%A9lez-9.jpg[/QUOTE]

....I will accept the pictures, with thanks. :D

[Lucas]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/167/470/sparta-car-crash.gif?1314495678

[Dragonzbane76]

Yes, I am really concerned about "proving" my TCMA training and its validity to "trespassing" MMA-ists, specially in a forum where actual TCMA sifus have acknowledged my kung fu understanding

apparently you are you keep going with this conversation. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

funny thing is we are in the MMA forum part of the site. Fun times for us "trespassers" :p

[Hardwork108]

apparently you are you keep going with this conversation. ;)

Not really. How am I supposed to prove my TCMA knowledge to people like you, who have no point of reference and hence no way to recognize it? LOL!

All I a doing is trying to suggest that some of you guys should not talk about subject matters that you are clueless about as it does not become you. ;)

[Hardwork108]

funny thing is we are in the MMA forum part of the site. Fun times for us "trespassers" :p

This (my) original thread was posted in the kung fu threads, but it was moved here by the moderator, perhaps because he did not recognize the fact that this discussion was not about MMAs, any more than other stuff being posted in the main forum - just like some of you guys. I guess this is just the sign of the times. ;)

I am just glad that Joe Rogan is not a Sumo wrestler, because I don´t know where this thread would have ended up....:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

Not really. How am I supposed to prove my TCMA knowledge to people like you, who have no point of reference and hence no way to recognize it? LOL!

All I a doing is trying to suggest that some of you guys should not talk about subject matters that you are clueless about as it does not become you.

more opinions, must mean you care ;)
either that or you just like to prove us ignorant MMA types wrong because of that huge chip on your shoulder.

[Dragonzbane76]

This (my) original thread was posted in the kung fu threads, but it was moved here by the moderator, perhaps because he did not recognize the fact that this discussion was not about MMAs, any more than other stuff being posted in the main forum - just like some of you guys. I guess this is just the sign of the times.

not my fault I don't have control over such things. for a guy who truly hates others in the MMA fields you are spending a good bit of time here.

maybe it is a sign of the times and your ship isn't sinking and you need to sail on through.

[Hardwork108]

not my fault I don't have control over such things. for a guy who truly hates others in the MMA fields you are spending a good bit of time here.

Not my fault either, but it is my thread, so I am not going to leave it because somebody elses mistake - so get over it!


aybe it is a sign of the times and your ship isn't sinking and you need to sail on through.

If it is my "ship that is sinking", then why are you posting in almost every thread in this forum? LOL!

I mean why don't you run along and enlighten the people in the MMA forums on the internet? LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

I mean why don't you run along and enlighten the people in the MMA forums on the internet? LOL!

because we need to bring light to the unbelievers in the darkest parts of the world. :)


so get over it!
didn't know I was on it lol.. just pointing out that you are upset at all the mma people and they put it here we didn't.




If it is my "ship that is sinking", then why are you posting in almost every thread in this forum? LOL!last i checked it's a free site.

[Hardwork108]

because we need to bring light to the unbelievers in the darkest parts of the world. :)
Then you can start with yourself as you are totally lost in the woods when it comes to authentic TCMA methodologies.....LOL!



didn't know I was on it lol.. just pointing out that you are upset at all the mma people and they put it here we didn't.
If you look carefully you may see that at least some of the "they" are more MMA, than TCMA....;)




last i checked it's a free site.
"Free" does not mean, "free for all"! ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

Free" does not mean, "free for all"!
free to express my opinions, just as you are, as proven in the below statement.


Then you can start with yourself as you are totally lost in the woods when it comes to authentic TCMA methodologies.....LOL!


If you look carefully you may see that at least some of the "they" are more MMA, than TCMA....
mma threads here, that would probably mean there are people whom practice it here...sheeee didn't think it was that hard to understand.

[Dragonzbane76]

this has been fun but it's starting to get boring. Bring back old memories and such.

I'm done here, you can keep going if you want.

I'm going to go spread my knowledge around here with others, you've been hogging all of it.

Good day to you. :p

[Hardwork108]

I'm going to go spread my knowledge around here with others........
"Knowledge"????? :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: LOL, LOL,LOL!



I'm done here, you can keep going if you want.

Dragonzbane76 - came to this thread with nothing; contributed nothing; left with nothing! LOL!


Good day to you. :p

Good day to you (and your "knowledge") too....LOL!

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think what Frost is saying has a lot of truth in it, guys. Having moved onto MMA for a short while after studying chinese MA and cross-training in japanese, BJJ, and Thai stuff separately, I can tell you that many MMA guys train far more efficiently. I stuck with CMA, but MMA was an eye-opener and helped me refine some techniques. I used CMA all the time to keep myself on my feet--I just didn't call it CMA. It was, in short, an attempt to fight stand-up against groundfighters, and using groundfighting to fight stand-up guys.

The question is: Do you want to train in the MMA way? Personally, I didn't. I enjoyed the rolling, the sparring, etc., but I still ejoyed forms/drills based work that allowed for more movement, interpretation, and whatever. CMA provides cardio better suited to my schedule, interests, etc., as I'm sure it does most people. And there were plenty of MMA wannabes in the gym. Plus, i found that I didn't want to hurt my opponents as much as they wanted to hurt me within the rule set. I didn't like the sport aspect, since I mainly jockeyed for position and possible break points where I'd really do my damage with illegal strikes--but if you think MMA guys "can't" do those same illegal strikes, you'd be fooling yourself. It's not a one-way street.

CMA is less efficient. Not useless and ineffective, but certainly less efficient as it is USUALLY trained.

As for weapons and the lot, MMA doesn't have them, but MMA guys can pick that up elsewhere. Like I said, it's not a one-way street.

It's also not an "Either/or" scenario. You can have both, but you also have to be honest about how you train. I'm no MMA fighter.

[Dragonzbane76]

Sounds very similar in regards to what i do. I agree with u on most of that. People tend to get stuck in routine and fear to venture out from that,i think u see this a lot in the tcma world.

[Hardwork108]

Sounds very similar in regards to what i do. I agree with u on most of that. People tend to get stuck in routine and fear to venture out from that,i think u see this a lot in the tcma world.


That is funny, because I see a lot of MMA-ists who fear to venture out and train intellectually challenging TCMA methodologies, but then we live in a rich and varied world. ;)

[Jimbo]

I think it's a good thing to look outside of your own art. That's the only way to discover first-hand your own strengths and weaknesses. It doesn't make you any less of a CMAist if your explorations take you outside of CMA, either.

For example, suppose that CMA does indeed have extensive ground grappling. I know it doesn't exist in CLF, or in the Mantis or Lung Ying I trained in before. Should I have gone through the difficulties of searching high and low for something that might be in some Chinese arts, or would I have investigated BJJ, a highly proven art that's readily available almost everywhere? I did so for a year, and not because I wanted to become a BJJ expert. But to gain the experience of rolling/sparring in a ground format so I would have a realistic point of reference with regards to ground grappling. I enjoyed the time spent there and got what I went for, but I never viewed BJJ as a lifetime pursuit.

I began my MA training in non-CMA, and I know there is value in all MA's.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TCMA come in all sizes and shapes and have almost everything that one can be looking for.
EXCEPT ground grappling and submission on par with BJJ.
Anyone thinking differently is in their own little world and has NEVER experienced BJJ.
It truly is that simple.

[Lucas]

personally ive never done bjj, and i probably never will. there are guys who do bjj that train at the judo dojo, and its evident when you are on the ground with them. so in a sense there is an element of bjj cross training when we do groundwork because sensei does encourage that. but for me personally i think with my goals, judo is a far better skillset to develop. im not going to submission tourney, or fighting mma. i dont need as in depth of ground work as bjj offers and i feel judo offers a better set for keeping myself from ending up on the ground than does bjj.

i first looked into shuai jiao because i was interested and found there is no one here teaching that. it wasnt even second guessed whether or not i should venture outside of cma to get the skills i wanted. it was common sense for me to gravitate to judo.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

TCMA come in all sizes and shapes and have almost everything that one can be looking for.
EXCEPT ground grappling and submission on par with BJJ.
Anyone thinking differently is in their own little world and has NEVER experienced BJJ.
It truly is that simple.

Obviously you have never trained in real Ethiopian Sumo and it rich methodologies!:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously you have never trained in real Ethiopian Sumo and it rich methodologies!:p

Nor have I trained in Mozambican Kenpo or in Estonian Aikido.
I need to get out more.

[JamesC]

Nor have I trained in Mozambican Kenpo or in Estonian Aikido.
I need to get out more.

Vati-Catch-as-Catch-Can...?


http://freestylevarietyband.com/images/TT.priest%20fight.2x2.2.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

I think it's a good thing to look outside of your own art. That's the only way to discover first-hand your own strengths and weaknesses. It doesn't make you any less of a CMAist if your explorations take you outside of CMA, either.

my thoughts as well.


and I know there is value in all MA's. yes indeed.


i feel judo offers a better set for keeping myself from ending up on the ground than does bjj.
that is grappling. clinch work intails it. Judo does have a better understanding than most arts in the control of the clinch. on the other hand you never know when you will end on the ground. you need some experience in knowing how to get back to your feet in those cases. BJJ/wrestling/judo/SJ handles this. If your game is stand up then you need to know how to regain that area if it's lost. Base grappling arts teach control, and what better way to gain your feet than by having control.


TCMA come in all sizes and shapes and have almost everything that one can be looking for.
EXCEPT ground grappling and submission on par with BJJ.
Anyone thinking differently is in their own little world and has NEVER experienced BJJ.
It truly is that simple.
I'm not a BJJ nut rider but I do love the ground game. I like to stand and trade with the best of whom ever is placed in front of me. But knowledge is knowledge and you can dispute that ground arts dominate in that area. some people like to live in flat worlds were they think the center revolves around them. So be it. Rude awakenings happen all the time.

[wenshu]

i first looked into shuai jiao because i was interested and found there is no one here teaching that. it wasnt even second guessed whether or not i should venture outside of cma to get the skills i wanted. it was common sense for me to gravitate to judo.

It is really a shame that Shuai Jiao is not better represented in the west. What is here for the most part is Bao Ding via Taiwan. Nothing against that mind you but the grip fighting and techniques in Beijing/Tianjin style are devastating.

The carryover from taolu oriented gong fu is substantial, the stances, footwork, qin na etc are nearly identical the only difference being that you immediately reconcile them with sparring against a resisting opponent, which as we all know is a practice that is woefully underdeveloped in western gong fu practice.

The inveterate black and white thinkers on both sides always conveniently disregard Shuai Jiao whenever mired in this tired ass argument. Shuai Jiao IS sport gong fu.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It is really a shame that Shuai Jiao is not better represented in the west. What is here for the most part is Bao Ding via Taiwan. Nothing against that mind you but the grip fighting and techniques in Beijing/Tianjin style are devastating.

The carryover from taolu oriented gong fu is substantial, the stances, footwork, qin na etc are nearly identical the only difference being that you immediately reconcile them with sparring against a resisting opponent, which as we all know is a practice that is woefully underdeveloped in western gong fu practice.

The inveterate black and white thinkers on both sides always conveniently disregard Shuai Jiao whenever mired in this tired ass argument. Shuai Jiao IS sport gong fu.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w7sJeCCA1qA/TTT_YPdbjNI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/W64M1zxxtCU/s1600/princess%2Bbrideinconceivable.jpg

[JamesC]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HIyRsx4xz6Y/TY0Dvg_qIjI/AAAAAAAAAF4/kPtviFay31Y/s400/inigomontoya.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/funny-dog-pictures-you-keep-using-that-word.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

http://www.mcckc.edu/longview/socsci/psyc/westra/Adol/DDUMKC/Archetypes/princess-bride_albino.jpg

[Lucas]

http://www.nickberry.com/myspace/princess_bride-miracle_max.jpg

[Hardwork108]

TCMA come in all sizes and shapes and have almost everything that one can be looking for.
EXCEPT ground grappling and submission on par with BJJ.
I personally wouldn't know as I have not experienced all of the TCMAs on the planet. I would hazard a guess that if they don't exist in the TCMAs, then that is because by combining different techniques and different ranges, the TCMA-ists of the past came up with potent weapons against ground fighters, however, because of the fact that in the majority of the cases nowadays the TCMAs are taught in an imcomplete manner, then we never see those aspects. I mean for god's sake, most people studying TCMAs nowadays can't even use it for decent stand up fighting...LOL!


Anyone thinking differently is in their own little world and has NEVER experienced BJJ.
It truly is that simple.
The same is true with people in their little MMA worlds who have never truly experienced TCMAs, or TMAs in general.

I guess, blanket statements are wrong, coming from either side of the argument. That is why I take issue with people who say "there is not ground fighting in the TCMAs!". The fact is there are, wether they are as good or not as BJJ is another question for discussion, but not the fact that there are kung fu styles that deal with the ground scenario.

[wiz cool c]

so if mr. joe rogan says wing chun and kung fu is useless,then he should be willing to put his money where his mouth is,and step up and fight this guy Shawn Obasi . a wing chun guy who is winning many fight in mma. as far as i know mr rogan has nver be in the ring himself.

[Lucas]

I'd pay to see that **** in PPV!!

celebrity mma!!

[Frost]

umm rogan is a commentator not a fighter, Obasi is a low level fighter who will probably never be on the big stage after what happened last time he tried out for a big organisation

having said that Rogen competed in TKD, and is a black belt in BJJ, so who knows what would happen :)

[Ben Gash]

a wing chun guy who is winning many fight in mma Pro record of 0-1 , and didn't start winning amateur fights until he started training at Alliance BJJ. Indeed, if you watch the few vids where he wins, it's superior jitz that does it.

[Lee Chiang Po]

umm rogan is a commentator not a fighter, Obasi is a low level fighter who will probably never be on the big stage after what happened last time he tried out for a big organisation

having said that Rogen competed in TKD, and is a black belt in BJJ, so who knows what would happen :)


From what I can see Rogan is just bad around the mouth. He don't have the moxy to fight or he would be all up in it. Tatoos and all.

[Frost]

From what I can see Rogan is just bad around the mouth. He don't have the moxy to fight or he would be all up in it. Tatoos and all.

Umm he makes a very good living from what he does why should he fight?

He probable makes more than most the fighters in the UFC doing what he does......
But he did fight back in his TKD days so he does has stand up skills and his grappling is way way better than Obasis ( i know fighters that have been to 10th planet and rolled and sparred with Rogan and they all say very good things about him)

[wiz cool c]

he is a commentator, so what he is a martial artist. and we are in a time of put up or shut up. he is making public comments about a style. he is a bjj guy. what is the problem,why cant he put his money where his month is? and i watched a few fights of shawn amature or pro not sure. he kicked ass and besides some ground and ground defense you can see the clear wing chun in his fights.

[Dragonzbane76]

honestly you guys take to much to heart on Mr. rogan.

he's a douchbag, he gets paid to do what he does. end of story. so what he insulted some WC guys, is he right in what he says? If not stand up prove him wrong.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It is really a shame that Shuai Jiao is not better represented in the west. What is here for the most part is Bao Ding via Taiwan. Nothing against that mind you but the grip fighting and techniques in Beijing/Tianjin style are devastating.

The carryover from taolu oriented gong fu is substantial, the stances, footwork, qin na etc are nearly identical the only difference being that you immediately reconcile them with sparring against a resisting opponent, which as we all know is a practice that is woefully underdeveloped in western gong fu practice.

The inveterate black and white thinkers on both sides always conveniently disregard Shuai Jiao whenever mired in this tired ass argument. Shuai Jiao IS sport gong fu.

What's the diff? Not to pick at you, b/c I fully understand what you're talking about--I sought out SJ guys in my area---but SJ isn't much more than jujitsu, judo, and chin-na mixed together. You can learn SJ without an SJ teacher.

I'd certainly love to learn from true SJ guys, but there's no reason anybody else can't learn SJ without SJ teachers. Once you study standup jujitsu, throws and sweeps will appear in your CMA left-and-right.

[wenshu]

What's the diff? Not to pick at you, b/c I fully understand what you're talking about--I sought out SJ guys in my area---but SJ isn't much more than jujitsu, judo, and chin-na mixed together. You can learn SJ without an SJ teacher.

I'd certainly love to learn from true SJ guys, but there's no reason anybody else can't learn SJ without SJ teachers. Once you study standup jujitsu, throws and sweeps will appear in your CMA left-and-right.

Not to diminish the similarities, it's all related in one way or another, but the differences are substantial. By way of a for instance Judo relies heavily on momentum to execute throws whereas Shuai Jiao is more dependent on explosive strength. By all outward appearances a subtle difference but it changes the fundamental orientation of basic training.

Shuai Jiao is not Judo is not Jiujitsu. Mixing Judo with Indonesian Chinese forms practice doesn't make it Shuai Jiao. This egalitarian, lineage free, one size fits all, style doesn't matter view of the martial arts, commendable idealism though it may be, doesn't reflect reality. Traditional martial arts culture may be full of ass backwards patriarchal nonsense but who learned what from whom kind of matters. Anyone saying it doesn't is selling something.

Go to a Judo coach to learn Judo not Shuai Jiao, or learn Judo then call it Shuai Jiao when you practice forms, that's retarded.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally wouldn't know as I have not experienced all of the TCMAs on the planet. I would hazard a guess that if they don't exist in the TCMAs, then that is because by combining different techniques and different ranges, the TCMA-ists of the past came up with potent weapons against ground fighters, however, because of the fact that in the majority of the cases nowadays the TCMAs are taught in an imcomplete manner, then we never see those aspects. I mean for god's sake, most people studying TCMAs nowadays can't even use it for decent stand up fighting...LOL!


The same is true with people in their little MMA worlds who have never truly experienced TCMAs, or TMAs in general.

I guess, blanket statements are wrong, coming from either side of the argument. That is why I take issue with people who say "there is not ground fighting in the TCMAs!". The fact is there are, wether they are as good or not as BJJ is another question for discussion, but not the fact that there are kung fu styles that deal with the ground scenario.

It is a simple fact that NO TCMA has ground grappling on par with BJJ and I say it is a fact because:
Ground grappling is NOT prioritized in ANY TCMA.
I have yet to hear ANY TCMA that has any decent amount of experience in TCMA, including those that are in mainland china, Taiwan and Macao. say that there is ANY TCMA that is on par with BJJ in regards to ground grappling.
It just isn't there because it was NEVER prioritized as it was in BJJ.
It's not a slight on TCMA, it's just a fact.
In terms of ground grappling, BJJ is in a leage all its own.
Even submission grapplers core is BJJ.

[Dragonzbane76]

Like i said ronin, tcma has a very bland overview of grappling, not a focus on it
like other styles.