kuoshu lei tai

[mjw]

Anyone ever do one of these kuoshu lei tai tournaments?
Experiences thoughts?

[Ben Gash]

The format is slightly kooky (you can knee, but you can't throw inside leg kicks?) but alright. I prefer San Shou and MMA TBH.

[Golden Arms]

They are a decent format, but train in the helmet first so you can get used to the lack of vision. Its the only format I have fought under that allowed shoes which is interesting I suppose.

[Mike Patterson]

The format is slightly kooky (you can knee, but you can't throw inside leg kicks?) but alright. I prefer San Shou and MMA TBH.

Actually, unless things have changed dramatically since my involvement, you can indeed throw both inside and outside leg kicks. Although they do want to see them land at least six inches away from the knee.

I also personally worked very hard to get both elbows and knees back into the events while involved (they had once deleted them from all but world competitions) and eventually succeeded in doing just that.

My one remaining complaint had to do with the "off the platform" rule as it allows for too much "bull rushing" on the part of larger opponents.

I am also not real fond of the headcage and never have been. It makes for a constantly guarded nose and this contributes to a great deal of flailing on the part of some combatants.

Many things changed over the years. I prefer the old ways as it was more real, but I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur events.

[Ben Gash]

I wish there was a like/thank button on this forum. Certainly both event here that I've taken fighters to have explicitly disallowed inside kicks.
I also don't like the headguards (I also don't like the San Shou chestguards), and they kinda make elbows redundant.
I wish we could get away from Lei Tai as well. The ringout rule is just silly, I'd prefer a high sided ring or a cage. One of my guys had a chest injury for months after he fell off the Lei Tai onto his opponent's knee :(

[Ben Gash]

The UK guys have been trying to get a pro Koushu league going, with no headguards and a ground fast wrestling rule similar to Sambo which looks pretty cool. Not sure what kind of headway they've made though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see it as an "inferior" method to Daidojuku.

[Mike Patterson]

I wish there was a like/thank button on this forum. Certainly both event here that I've taken fighters to have explicitly disallowed inside kicks.
I also don't like the headguards (I also don't like the San Shou chestguards), and they kinda make elbows redundant.
I wish we could get away from Lei Tai as well. The ringout rule is just silly, I'd prefer a high sided ring or a cage. One of my guys had a chest injury for months after he fell off the Lei Tai onto his opponent's knee :(



The UK guys have been trying to get a pro Koushu league going, with no headguards and a ground fast wrestling rule similar to Sambo which looks pretty cool. Not sure what kind of headway they've made though.

Hmm... that's odd, Ben. I have never seen a non-standard rule set from any country. Are your Kuoshu events not affilated with I.C.K.F. or U.S.C.K.F.?

I hear you about the injuries on the platform. One of my heavyweights broke his upper humerous as a result of a 340 lb. opponent falling on him as they went off together.

Good luck on that pro league. They tried to keep me involved here with the promise of that at the end. But I was so fed up with the internal politics by that time that I just didn't care anymore. Besides which, it never actually happened. I told the powers that be had they proposed it in the late 90's prior to my departure, I would have made it happen for them. I always thought that with a few more rule tweaks, the venue held promise as a great spectator event.

[Ben Gash]

I'm more part of the San Shou scene TBH, so I'm not sure on the Kosherness of the events (although I think one was a qualifier for the UK team) These were the rules
http://www.pro.kuoshu.co.uk/amateur_rules_p2.html

[Mike Patterson]

I'm more part of the San Shou scene TBH, so I'm not sure on the Kosherness of the events (although I think one was a qualifier for the UK team) These were the rules
http://www.pro.kuoshu.co.uk/amateur_rules_p2.html

Well, I sure do see it right there in bold at the top. I was unable to find a page on the current rule set sanctioned by the parent organization (which I see has changed its name once again).

But if this is a new change, it's not a good one. Oh well.. I don't really keep pace with what they do anymore. Six years of warring with them to change the rules back to what it used to be just plum wore me out. And I was only partially successful at that.

It's an okay structure, but they really need to look at changing with the times and this is something they have never been real keen on doing. :rolleyes:

So the San Shou Federation is still using chest protectors, eh? What kind of gloves are now being employed if I may ask?

[YouKnowWho]

One of my heavyweights broke his upper humerous as a result of a 340 lb. opponent falling on him as they went off together.

One of my guys got punched on the head. He was so mad and grabbed his opponent and both fell off the stage with his body weight on top of his opponent. His opponent's head shot didn't end the fight but his body smashing did. The body smashing is a dirty trick. You pretend that you lose balance. The truth is you do it on purpose. The height of the stage will be an excellent place to play that trick. You may not get any point by doing so, but if your opponent can't continue after that, that's all you need. In the ring or cage, you won't have that "Lei Tai height" advantage.

[Ben Gash]

I think it's 12oz over 80kg and 10oz under (for some reason google docs won't load the rules at the moment).

[Mike Patterson]

The body smashing is a dirty trick. You pretend that you lose balance. The truth is you do it on purpose. The height of the stage will be an excellent place to play that trick. You may not get any point by doing so, but if your opponent can't continue after that, that's all you need. In the ring or cage, you won't have that "Lei Tai height" advantage.

You are 100% correct about that. We've had it done to us and on occasion used it on others that "bullrush" in attempts to just push us off the platform. It's yet another reason that the platform should be abandoned and the scoring rule along with.



I think it's 12oz over 80kg and 10oz under (for some reason google docs won't load the rules at the moment).

Yeah. Same as before I think. It's the primary reason I passed on the Sanshou Federation back in those days. The heavy gloves plus chest protector negated body impacts entirely too much for my tastes.

[TenTigers]

when we did the AAU tournament, some years back, Javonne Holmes (sp?) did a great hip throw to a guy who bull rushed him, the guy went right off the stage. (moved him right up to the edge where he pivoted and executed a perfect throw) Unfortunately, Holmes gassed in the later round, but he fought really well up till then. I for one, was really impressed with his skill.

[ginosifu]

I hear many people that do not like the platform and the "PUSH OFF" rule. We always have fought on Wrestling mats, but with the same Push Off rule.

What are some suggestions to modify this? We always trained specifically for push off rules with anti bullrush techniques and such. Should we bring it down and fight only on mats? Should we modify the push out rule, an example would be:

Pushing out gives you nothing, however lift and throwing someone out gives you extra points and opponent can not be thrown out more than once.

any thoughts?

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

I like the leitai for the following reasons:

1. It limits running to a point,
2. It teaches you how to corner your opponent,
3. It is cheaper to build than a ring with ropes.

I don't like current leitai or leitai rules for the following reasons:

1. I think obtaining points by pushing someone off the platform is lame. Though causing them to run off should earn you a point.
2. The leitais that I have seen are far too big. My students are forced to fight on a six foot square leitai. There is no choice but standing and fighting, dodging, or circling. Even ten foot platforms would reduce "running" time.
3. More probability of injury from falling rather than fighting.

The concept of fighting of a raised platform to enhance the danger of the competition is passe in our modern liberal, litigious societies.

[mjw]

I see it as an "inferior" method to Daidojuku.

What is that?

[ginosifu]

I like the leitai for the following reasons:

1. It limits running to a point,
2. It teaches you how to corner your opponent,
3. It is cheaper to build than a ring with ropes.

I don't like current leitai or leitai rules for the following reasons:

1. I think obtaining points by pushing someone off the platform is lame. Though causing them to run off should earn you a point.
2. The leitais that I have seen are far too big. My students are forced to fight on a six foot square leitai. There is no choice but standing and fighting, dodging, or circling. Even ten foot platforms would reduce "running" time.
3. More probability of injury from falling rather than fighting.

The concept of fighting of a raised platform to enhance the danger of the competition is passe in our modern liberal, litigious societies.

Do you think if we apply this type of rule set but on a wrestling mat, would it have Lei Tai "Feel" to it? What if we were to get rid of the "Push Out" rule in favor of a smaller ring size such as a 8' - 10' ring and apply the no running out rule?

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.

2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.

[omarthefish]

Been following this topic with some interest because I fought "leitai" last year and won and, yes, I made liberal use of the push-out rule and, also yes, I felt like it was kind of cheesy but if those are the rules and you notice the other guy is like 2 inches from the edge, you'd be a fool not to go ahead and push him out.

OTOH....

The arguments on this thread are kind of inconsistent. We all agree that winning for a lot of just shoving a guy back feels silly but has anyone looked at the internal assumptions on why we feel it's silly? No one has explicitly stated it but I assume the argument is that just shoving a guy back a couple feet doesn't really do any damage and should therefore not be awarded in a fight sport.

Ok. Let's accept the premise that only techniques that could hypothetically hurt a guy get points.

Then what do I do with these points here:

...One of my guys had a chest injury for months after he fell off the Lei Tai onto his opponent's knee :(



I hear you about the injuries on the platform. One of my heavyweights broke his upper humerous as a result of a 340 lb. opponent falling on him as they went off together...

So we somehow feel that simply pushing a guy out of the ring is an invalid technique because it does not represent "fighting" or "combat" and at the same time feel that we should do away with the platform because being pushed off it is dangerous? :confused:

It's kind of interesting how leitai fights add support of the good old fashioned Taiji "push" as a valid technique. In a real fight, while there isn't typically a raised platform, there's certainly chairs and traffic and so on. Also, I don't really care about people trying to bullrush me off the stage or out of the ring. If that is an issue then you really need to work on your footwork. At least one of my "push outs" was a taiji throw I did as a counter to a bullrush. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyn3Z-kDes4)

[bawang]

i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.

[Mike Patterson]

So we somehow feel that simply pushing a guy out of the ring is an invalid technique because it does not represent "fighting" or "combat" and at the same time feel that we should do away with the platform because being pushed off it is dangerous? :confused:

It's kind of interesting how leitai fights add support of the good old fashioned Taiji "push" as a valid technique. In a real fight, while there isn't typically a raised platform, there's certainly chairs and traffic and so on. Also, I don't really care about people trying to bullrush me off the stage or out of the ring. If that is an issue then you really need to work on your footwork. At least one of my "push outs" was a taiji throw I did as a counter to a bullrush. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyn3Z-kDes4)

Good point, Omar.

The original rule long ago stated "ejected from the platform with a skillful technique" which definitely included a classic uproot or palm push if given with authority in a balanced and grounded execution. The referees tended to disallow points for what I call "bullrushing"... meaning grabbing and literally running the other combatant off the platform. Now it can be argued that the receiver of the "bullrush" should be able to execute a skillful redirection of that momentum and counter it with a throw for example.. and I would agree.

The problem is that most cannot and, as a result, many are injured badly each year. So my issue always had to do with safety for the fighters. Did you know that one year they wanted to raise the platform yet another foot? I fought hard against it for the very same reason and it never came into being.

In the old days, the "platform" was a few layers of tatami stacked together and held in place by a wooden frame. This is more to my liking as it preserves the necessity of moving laterally but takes away needless injury.

Just my opinion. :)

[Mike Patterson]

i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.

Well, I don't know about music. :)

But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.

[Lucas]

i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.

I agree. Also, I think in lei tai for push out, this comes down to 'ring control' and keeping the center. If I found myself in a real fight on a raised platform, u can bet money I would try to push the guy off. So its actually realistic. That's why its a raised platform. If u lose by a simple push, it shows how much your opponent controlled you and the fight

[bawang]

Well, I don't know about music. :)

But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.

i think 4 oz glove is a must in the future of guoshu competitions. it gives you complete freedom to do what you want, there will be no excuses

[omarthefish]

Well, I don't know about music. :)

But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.
The safety argument is much stronger than the "just shoving a guy is cheesy" argument. On the one hand, I did feel silly for some of the push outs I did. OTOH, I was fairly proud of my self for being so acutely aware of where the border was. Also, the one I did was just a taped square on a mat so there was no safety issue. After thinking about it now I realize the raised platform causes 90% of the problems. With a flat ring or just a couple inches of platform, you also get rid of people falling on your when you both go out together. A lot less falling in general.

We wore open faced TKD style foam head protectors which seems really appropriate to me for an amateur event. You could still get hit in the face and they didn't obscure my vision like the full head cages do.

[mooyingmantis]

1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.

2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.

This!

Plus a smaller ring size as Gino suggested.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Do you think if we apply this type of rule set but on a wrestling mat, would it have Lei Tai "Feel" to it? What if we were to get rid of the "Push Out" rule in favor of a smaller ring size such as a 8' - 10' ring and apply the no running out rule?

ginosifu

For your tournament Gino I think this would be a good idea. Have a 10 x 10 or 12 x 12 ring, get rid of the push out rule however you could penalize for running or stalling during the fight, as well as penalize for bull charging someone out of the ring when they are getting beat by an opponent with superior technique.

I personally feel this type of fighting should only be done in a boxing style ring, but that is because you don't have to worry about guys running so much and the action doesn't get stopped as much with going out of boundaries. But I also understand when having a tournament it is not always economically possible to have 3 oe 4 boxing rings.

[ginosifu]

For your tournament Gino I think this would be a good idea. Have a 10 x 10 or 12 x 12 ring, get rid of the push out rule however you could penalize for running or stalling during the fight, as well as penalize for bull charging someone out of the ring when they are getting beat by an opponent with superior technique.

I personally feel this type of fighting should only be done in a boxing style ring, but that is because you don't have to worry about guys running so much and the action doesn't get stopped as much with going out of boundaries. But I also understand when having a tournament it is not always economically possible to have 3 oe 4 boxing rings.

A lot of stuff is about cost and economics. Boxing rings are expensive, even wrestling mats are $5000-$6000 Grand for a whole set. However, the new puzzle mats are a bit more economical. A 10' x 10' ring would be 3 puzzle mats across (each puzzle mat are approximately 40" x 40") and 3 puzzle mats deep. Most likely we would do a 4 x 4 puzzle mat and have the outer mats for safety. But you are looking at about $18-20 per puzzle square (40" x 40") X 16 pieces = $320 per ring.

Fighters don't care about what the promoters have to go thru to provide a place for them to fight but it is not easy to create a good tournament without going broke.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.

This is a good idea and cheap to build. Lay 2x4x8 or a 2x4x10 on the ground and create a square. A couple of 2x4's across the middle for support and put plywood on top. Then get puzzle mat squares to cover the top and there you have it!


2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.

This would work as well. Eliminate the bull rush and only score points for valid punch kick and throw out of bounds. The only safety issue I would have is fighters that would fall on or near the corners of the would edges.

ginosifu

[mjw]

It's not pretty but I did a Kuoshu Lei Tai match and won in the 2nd round with a tko from their 3x push out rule after losing the 1st round though this guy did out weigh me by 80+ pounds

Round 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcjihY8pnhk
Round 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UxK95bkcGU