Ip Man does BJJ

[anerlich]

Sorry purists and MMA haters ... but this is what Donnie Yen is up to these days...

http://www.dstryrsg.com/2011/10/amazing-donnie-yen-ushering-bjj-to-hk.html

[Runlikehell]

That film was released before Ip Man.

Interesting choreography though.

[anerlich]

That film was released before Ip Man.

Interesting choreography though.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

[Runlikehell]

No problem.

[Hardwork108]

Finally a kung fu movie that makes the MMA-ists humid down below...LOL!

[R]

Interesting that the guy who posted the vid says a combo of wing chun, wrestling and .... could see most of that except for the wing chun LOL!!

R

[Dragonzbane76]

Finally a kung fu movie that makes the MMA-ists humid down below...LOL!

or give the purist a discomforting chill. :p

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr-eeNjvb1o

[Hardwork108]

or give the purist a discomforting chill. :p

Not really. It just makes me laugh at how naive some people are.

The film studios in Hong Kong are run by businessmen (and not knuckleheads). They know that BJJ is "in" nowadays, so they have fused it into their kung fu fight scenes and apparently it has had the desired effect on the "MMA is best" community, seeing the number wet panties it has resulted in this forum.

So, if I were you I would not read too much into it.....;)

[Dragonzbane76]

Not really. It just makes me laugh at how naive some people are.

The film studios in Hong Kong are run by businessmen (and not knuckleheads). They know that BJJ is "in" nowadays, so they have fused it into their kung fu fight scenes and apparently it has had the desired effect on the "MMA is best" community, seeing the number wet panties it has resulted in this forum.

or maybe people are starting to wake up to understand. Of couse it's just a movie and therefore should be treated as such but it has an underlying statement about people starting to realize things. ;) anyways this is actually an older movie. Not very recent.

anyways believe what you want, I'm not going to change your mind, but maybe one day you will understand but I truely doubt it.

[Hardwork108]

or maybe people are starting to wake up to understand. Of couse it's just a movie and therefore should be treated as such but it has an underlying statement about people starting to realize things. ;) anyways this is actually an older movie. Not very recent.

The Chinese kung fu masters of the past had to deal with ground fighters centuries before the Gracie's "invented" ground fighting. Just in case you didn't know, wrestling arts in China have been around a lot longer than the striking arts.


anyways believe what you want, I'm not going to change your mind, but maybe one day you will understand but I truely doubt it.

It is not about believing, it is about KNOWING. Knowing kung fu comes from PRACTICING kung fu. I practice it, you DON'T!

IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

[Sardinkahnikov]

Have you guys watched Killing Zone? Donnie yen's fight vs sammo hung wasn't pure kung fu, but i think its one of the best fighting scenes i've seen in a while. Anything to make the scenes entertaining, I say.

[Dragonzbane76]

The Chinese kung fu masters of the past had to deal with ground fighters centuries before the Gracie's "invented" ground fighting. Just in case you didn't know, wrestling arts in China have been around a lot longer than the striking arts.

wrestling was the first fighting art. And I've never stated that gracies invented ground fighting all they did was present a new idea. glad we've covered the history of MA's.




It is not about believing, it is about KNOWING. Knowing kung fu comes from PRACTICING kung fu. I practice it, you DON'T!

IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

say what you will. I've practiced KF for about 20 years now along with many other arts. I'm not going down this road of banter with you. Insult away maybe you'll get banned again.
p.s. you find that clip of cma doing grappling and ground work I asked for?

[YouKnowWho]

or give the purist a discomforting chill. :p

The word "purist" is a funny word. The attitude such as, "We don't do this in our style ...." is just blind loyality. How hard can it be to integrate "single leg" or "hip throw" into WC? It's not that hard at all. The moment that 1 or 2 moves is introduced into the system, the associated skills will be pulled in too. It will definitely be an "enhancement" and not "water down".

[Wayfaring]

The film studios in Hong Kong are run by businessmen (and not knuckleheads). They know that BJJ is "in" nowadays, so they have fused it into their kung fu fight scenes and apparently it has had the desired effect on the "MMA is best" community, seeing the number wet panties it has resulted in this forum.


See how much you can learn surfing the interw3bz while living in your mom's basement practicing "authentic kung fu"?

Although it does have side effects, like the subconscious over-focus on "wet panties".

[Yoshiyahu]

Donnie Yen core style is not wing chun is it?

Yen first learn Wushu from his mother. then went to learn Tae Kwon Do.

Yen later went on to discover and to seek knowledge on other martial arts style, he would later obtain belts from judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and went on to study the art of parkour, wrestling, Muay Thai, kickboxing and boxing under various trainers.


Later on he added WC to his already extensive arsenal....


A purist is more a less a stand fighter who knows WC is system of upfright fighting styles. WC in it self is not a ground fighting style. If you feel you need ground experience thats what Wrestling or judo is for!

ne way if your looking to prove that WC guys need to add BJJ to their art...Try going to your local boxing Gym or Muay Thai Gym or even Kyoshukin Dojo and video tape your skills of submitting one of their top fighters. An post it for us to see and you will make a believer out of WC community!

[Runlikehell]

Have you guys watched Killing Zone? Donnie yen's fight vs sammo hung wasn't pure kung fu, but i think its one of the best fighting scenes i've seen in a while. Anything to make the scenes entertaining, I say.

SPL? (Saat Po Long). Great ending fight, yeah. Apparently the weapons fight against Wu Jing was completely improvised on the spot.

[anerlich]

ne way if your looking to prove that WC guys need to add BJJ to their art...Try going to your local boxing Gym or Muay Thai Gym or even Kyoshukin Dojo and video tape your skills of submitting one of their top fighters. An post it for us to see and you will make a believer out of WC community!


Why not go to a WC kwoon and video that? Why do you need these other stylists to fight for you? Because your WC guys can't fight (mine can BTW)?

90% of MMA fighters crosstrain MT and BJJ. You don't know what you're ranting about. We had a an MMA fight here of Tony Bonello (a BJJ/MMA fighter of questionable credentials) handily submitting John Wayne Parr, a top notch MT guy in anyone's book, a few years back.

My WC instructor is also a Kyokushin black belt and BJJ brown belt. Perhaps I should post a vid of him submitting himself :rolleyes:

I'm not looking to prove anything, just get the usual suspects frothing at the mouth ... at which I appear to have had some success :p

[Yoshiyahu]

Why not go to a WC kwoon and video that? Why do you need these other stylists to fight for you? Because your WC guys can't fight (mine can BTW)?

90% of MMA fighters crosstrain MT and BJJ. You don't know what you're ranting about. We had a an MMA fight here of Tony Bonello (a BJJ/MMA fighter of questionable credentials) handily submitting John Wayne Parr, a top notch MT guy in anyone's book, a few years back.

My WC instructor is also a Kyokushin black belt and BJJ brown belt. Perhaps I should post a vid of him submitting himself :rolleyes:

I'm not looking to prove anything, just get the usual suspects frothing at the mouth ... at which I appear to have had some success :p



When are you coming to Saint Louis. I would love to train with you. Show me some of your MMA skills. Ne way your more than welcome to make a believer if you can? I would love to see it. What I am saying is this! I never see local MMA fighters defeat local Kyokushin or Muay Thai guys...I just see other MMA guys defeating other mma guys. A WC guy who practices other arts gets defeated by a BJJ guy with some boxing background...Thats what i see...

I for one am not a purist. I love MMA...Its a fun sport...

But what i am saying is this out side of the sport of Tae Kwon Do, karate point fighting and MMA...true Purist dont really care how valuable or useful you try to deem MMA, BJJ or ground work. If a person dont like it they dont like it...A person has to have interest in an art for it to work!

If someone trains BJJ just because he thinks he needs it to be a fighter but has no love for the art...it will be usesless for him!

[anerlich]

When are you coming to Saint Louis.

Never, most likely. The only people I know from there are you and Terence, neither of whom I GAF about. If I want a challenge, I train regularly with a couple of professional MMA fighters. Somehow I doubt you would present the same level of intensity.

I live in Sydney AUS. Why on Earth would I travel to a small city in the US to meet some random forum poster and try to change his uninformed opinions or accept some implicit challenge?


I would love to train with you. Show me some of your MMA skills. Ne way your more than welcome to make a believer if you can? I would love to see it.

I'm not looking for converts or external validation, or to convince anybody. I can't see training with you would be a learning experience for me on any level. There is ample opportunity for you closer to home. Go to Vegas or SoCal, plenty of top flight MMA gyms closer to you than me. Go show them how deluded they are.


What I am saying is this! I never see local MMA fighters defeat local Kyokushin or Muay Thai guys...I just see other MMA guys defeating other mma guys. A WC guy who practices other arts gets defeated by a BJJ guy with some boxing background...Thats what i see...

Doesn't really sound like you've looked. Not with any objectivity, anyway.


I for one am not a purist. I love MMA...Its a fun sport...

:confused: Even though " I never see local MMA fighters defeat local Kyokushin or Muay Thai guys...I just see other MMA guys defeating other mma guys. A WC guy who practices other arts gets defeated by a BJJ guy with some boxing background...Thats what i see..." :confused:


If someone trains BJJ just because he thinks he needs it to be a fighter but has no love for the art...it will be usesless for him!

You have to "love" BJJ to get a purple belt, let alone brown or black. "Love" isn't a word I'd use concerning activities, but I do find BJJ captivating and fascinating ... and so apparently does BJJ purple belt Donnie Yen.

You remain a hater ... you'll only ever be a hater.

[YouKnowWho]

One thing that I don't understand is, "Why there are so much resistence toward cross training in the WC community?"

Can any of our WC brothers share some light here? Is it because:

- you?
- your teacher? or
- your WC system?

[Phil Redmond]

One thing that I don't understand is, "Why there are so much resistence toward cross training in the WC community?"

Can any of our WC brothers share some light here? Is it because:

- you?
- your teacher? or
- your WC system?
A "martial artist" should explore as many arts as possible even if he/she specializes in one art. No one art has all the answers.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSv9EHXPd1c&feature=related

[Phil Redmond]

Here's an African-Brazilian MA used in MMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bwQWQ4w4Kxo#!

[k gledhill]

Here's an African-Brazilian MA used in MMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bwQWQ4w4Kxo#!

Nice.... unpredictability, like surprise is hard to deal with :D

[Yoshiyahu]

i stated i think MMA is a great sport...An those who train it. Have the potential to be great competition fighters.

I appluade them that do MMA...Because as a WC guy there is alot crap WC out there...There are alot schools who never spar with their wing chun, tai chi, preying mantis, Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut today. There are even alot of WC schools who dont even do chi sau. Just practice drills, forms and some conditioning exercises...So I appluade the MMA community for doing what other WC teachers should do...MMA Is like the Jehovah Witness of the martial arts world. Xtians are suppose to preach to every creature that moves. So the JW go from door to door spreading their form of Xtianity. They and the Mormons are the only ones who follow the apostles charge to go convert the nations. So is MMA akin to the jehovah witnesses in that respect. They are one of few save boxing and Muay Thai who actually spar with their techniques. Not many Gung Fu Systems spar outside of doing some boxing techniques. Not many Karate schools spar out side of point fighting and only landing kicks to the head with punches only to the body!






You remain a hater ... you'll only ever be a hater.

[anerlich]

A "martial artist" should explore as many arts as possible even if he/she specializes in one art. No one art has all the answers.

Word.

Nice clip too, Phil. a number of the top BJJ guys, like Cobrinha, do Capoeira. My BJJ coach has some experience in it as well.

[Yoshiyahu]

One thing that I don't understand is, "Why there are so much resistence toward cross training in the WC community?"

Can any of our WC brothers share some light here? Is it because:

- you?
- your teacher? or
- your WC system?

I think its simple...Many WC people resent the MMA because in essence Most ground fighters are saying you dont know how to fight unless you know how to roll. An WC guys are saying you dont know how to fight unless you can fight standing up...


People who train WC do so for a few different reasons. Either they love the WC art or they love the chinese culture and chinese martial arts. Asking someone who loves Strickly Chinese Gung Fu to learn a japanese, korean, Brazillian or European art is a slap in the face to them. Telling a person his art is incomplete, incompetant, and with out a ground game who studies Gung Fu simply because he likes chinese boxing is an insult to him or her. In fact I can tell you from personal experience. I trained Judo and Akido when i was younger. I enjoyed kick boxing more because it was closer to Gung Fu than the other two. I really didnt care or have an appreaciation for either Judo or Akido because i felt they were useless to a kid in junior high who wanted to kick and punch. So training those arts where a waste an time and money for me. Needless to say i didnt stay in it very long. I wanted to learn Kung Fu since i was five. An As a highschooler when I finally found out about it i was over joyed.

The same thing are for die hard WC guys. Its not that they hate MMA out right...They just find it offensive to hear someone tell them they first love is not good enough.

If you like ground fighting and wrestling that you will cross train WC with a ground fighting style. If you like stand up fighting you may cross train WC with Karate or boxing or even muay thai or tae kwon do!

It depends on the indiviual....


If someone hates MMA, or BJJ or ground fighting chances are they either practice martial arts because they love stand up fighting, they love WC or just really love all chinese gung fu and are not open to other cultures arts!

[Lucas]

flash point was a good movie. if you watch the movie with donnie yen commentary, he even points out where the flaws in his grappling choreography are from the knowledge he gained since he filmed that.

[YouKnowWho]

Asking someone who loves Strickly Chinese Gung Fu to learn a japanese, korean, Brazillian or European art is a slap in the face to them.

I know exactly what you are talking about. When my

- TKD friend showed me his 360 degree spin hook kick, I showed him a 360 degree backward floor sweep. I then told him that the 360 degree spin hook kick is hidden in that 360 degree backward floor sweep.
- MT friend showed me his flying knee, I showed him a double jumping kick. I then told him that the flying knee is hidden in that double jumping kick.
- BJJ friend showed me his side mount, I showed him a head lock sacrisfice throw. I then told him that the side mount is hidden in that sacrisfice throw.

There is a way to protect the honor of the TCMA. I will call this, "What's Mine is Mine, and What's Yours Is Also Mine." The Chinese had "69 mount" long before the birth of the BJJ.

[anerlich]

Asking someone who loves Strickly Chinese Gung Fu to learn a japanese, korean, Brazillian or European art is a slap in the face to them.

it's

STRICTLY

Demanding would be offensive. But asking them to consider it is a slap in the face? They'd have to be psychotic.


If someone hates MMA, or BJJ or ground fighting chances are they either practice martial arts because they love stand up fighting, they love WC or just really love all chinese gung fu and are not open to other cultures arts!

Or the third and most likely possibility, they have mental problems. There's a difference between saying "That stuff isn't really for me", which I can respect, as opposed to "I hate anyone who doesn't like what I like!" which deserves only ridicule.

Why the hate? What happened to coexistence? Why does it have to be one or the other and not both?

[anerlich]

The Chinese had "69 mount" long before the birth of the BJJ.

Absolutely. I saw an ancient Chinese text depicting the lapeloplata from inverted DLR guard as performed by Cobrinha at the Mundials, except they called it the "knotted cloth noodle".

Seriously, the Brazilians don't claim to have invented everything, and give credit to their Japanese roots.

However, the Chinese didn't invent wrestling either. It arguably predates civilisation.

[Graham H]

Why there are so much resistence toward cross training

For me it's because of the un-naturalness of the Ving Tsun punch and plus there is enough work to do within the system. Getting to a certain level is hard enough but to maintain takes consistent amounts of daily work. No time for other ideas.

GH

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course TCMa has grappling on par with BJJ, that is why you see all those TCMA cleaning up in submission grappling tournaments and winning the Abu Dhabi.
:D

[Wayfaring]

Of course TCMa has grappling on par with BJJ, that is why you see all those TCMA cleaning up in submission grappling tournaments and winning the Abu Dhabi.
:D

And why you just never see any TCMA "cr@ppling" instructionals out on the interw3bz.

[Yoshiyahu]

flash point was a good movie. if you watch the movie with donnie yen commentary, he even points out where the flaws in his grappling choreography are from the knowledge he gained since he filmed that.

I loved that movies ground worked it was pretty good...


I know exactly what you are talking about. When my

- TKD friend showed me his 360 degree spin hook kick, I showed him a 360 degree backward floor sweep. I then told him that the 360 degree spin hook kick is hidden in that 360 degree backward floor sweep.
- MT friend showed me his flying knee, I showed him a double jumping kick. I then told him that the flying knee is hidden in that double jumping kick.
- BJJ friend showed me his side mount, I showed him a head lock sacrisfice throw. I then told him that the side mount is hidden in that sacrisfice throw.

There is a way to protect the honor of the TCMA. I will call this, "What's Mine is Mine, and What's Yours Is Also Mine." The Chinese had "69 mount" long before the birth of the BJJ.

Thanks for sharing...lol you made me laugh out loud!

[Yoshiyahu]

it's

STRICTLY

Demanding would be offensive. But asking them to consider it is a slap in the face? They'd have to be psychotic.



Or the third and most likely possibility, they have mental problems. There's a difference between saying "That stuff isn't really for me", which I can respect, as opposed to "I hate anyone who doesn't like what I like!" which deserves only ridicule.

Why the hate? What happened to coexistence? Why does it have to be one or the other and not both?






For me it's because of the un-naturalness of the Ving Tsun punch and plus there is enough work to do within the system. Getting to a certain level is hard enough but to maintain takes consistent amounts of daily work. No time for other ideas.

GH





Of course TCMa has grappling on par with BJJ, that is why you see all those TCMA cleaning up in submission grappling tournaments and winning the Abu Dhabi.
:D

they sure do...leave stricking to Stand up fighters like WC, Boxing, MT and Kyoshukin and leave ground work to the BJJ guys i say.

Throwing a purist WC guy in the octagon against MMA guy who does MT and BJJ is like throwing a golden glove boxer into the Tae Kwon Do Olympics!!!

Its not gonna end well for him because the game is different!!!!






And why you just never see any TCMA "cr@ppling" instructionals out on the interw3bz.

Lol

[Phil Redmond]

they sure do...leave stricking to Stand up fighters like WC, Boxing, MT and Kyoshukin and leave ground work to the BJJ guys i say. . . . .Lol
You have to include Judoka in your statement. Especially this man in NJ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshisada_Yonezuka. BJJ black belts highly respect him.

[YouKnowWho]

they sure do...leave stricking to Stand up fighters like WC, Boxing, MT and Kyoshukin and leave ground work to the BJJ guys i say.

Throwing a purist WC guy in the octagon against MMA guy who does MT and BJJ is like throwing a golden glove boxer into the Tae Kwon Do Olympics!!!

Since the Chinese wrestling has rule as, "Whoever touches the ground first will lose that round." The definition of "touch the ground" is any 2 points besides your feet. Since all wrestlers like to shoot low, it almost takes no effort to foce them to have 2 points of their body to touch the ground when they shoot in. This make the wrestlers have no chance to win on the Chinese wrestling mat. On the other hand, The Chinese wrestlers also have no chance to win on the western wrestling mat since the ground game is lacking.

It makes no sense that I can beat you in my ruleset, but you can beat me in your ruleset. When you fight someone to the death, there will be no rules. We just can't open our window and only allow butterfly to fly in. We should also allow flies and mosquitos to fly in too.


Its not gonna end well for him because the game is different!!!!
Our goal should not be the "game" but "staying alive".

[Yoshiyahu]

FIGHT TO DEATH

Who do you think would win in a fight to the death with broken glass, knives, chains and baseball bats...

Royce Gracie or Mike Tyson?


Anything goes?



Since the Chinese wrestling has rule as, "Whoever touches the ground first will lose that round." The definition of "touch the ground" is any 2 points besides your feet. Since all wrestlers like to shoot low, it almost takes no effort to foce them to have 2 points of their body to touch the ground when they shoot in. This make the wrestlers have no chance to win on the Chinese wrestling mat. On the other hand, The Chinese wrestlers also have no chance to win on the western wrestling mat since the ground game is lacking.

It makes no sense that I can beat you in my ruleset, but you can beat me in your ruleset. When you fight someone to the death, there will be no rules. We just can't open our window and only allow butterfly to fly in. We should also allow flies and mosquitos to fly in too.

[Phil Redmond]

Here's another Capoeira MMA fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA&feature=share

[Hardwork108]

Here's another Capoeira MMA fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0KfQE2-ZqA&feature=share

That was a great KO and I am glad that the guy did not get hurt seriously. When I saw this I couldn't help but remember the WC, and indeed other Kung Fu principle of going forward and jamming.

If anything, this video - at least to me - demonstrates the importance of absorbing and using the principles of one's given TCMA style.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JlPEbfitI&feature=related

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JlPEbfitI&feature=related

A gem of a clip. :D...its all there ;) Arm bar, RNC, Guillotine, full mount too....they just lacked the marketing skills of the Gracies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A gem of a clip. :D...its all there ;) Arm bar, RNC, Guillotine, full mount too....they just lacked the marketing skills of the Gracies.

But they did have the same base as the Gracies :D

[k gledhill]

But they did have the same base as the Gracies :D

If only they knew ;):D whats 'tap out' in mandarin/cantonese ?

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JlPEbfitI&feature=related

And there are even more such techniques where those came from. Incidentally, one cannot help but notice some of those "hard to apply" striking techniques are performed only after one is controlling the opponent with a grappling technique first.;)

The "there is no grappling and ground fighting in the TCMA" crowd here, must be feeling like real p&cker heads, just about now (or whenever they see clip you posted).

Of course, for some of us intermediate students, the facts demonstrated in your video-clip is nothing new. Infact, I have been referring to the grappling and ground fighting approach of some TCMAs in this forum for years.

Good find, and thanks for posting.:)

[k gledhill]

And there are even more such techniques where those came from. Incidentally, one cannot help but notice some of those "hard to apply" striking techniques are performed only after one is controlling the opponent with a grappling technique first.;)

The "there is no grappling and ground fighting in the TCMA" crowd here, must be feeling like real ****** heads, just about now (or whenever they see clip you posted).

Of course, for some of us intermediate students, the facts demonstrated in your video-clip is nothing new. Infact, I have been referring to the grappling and ground fighting approach of some TCMAs in this forum for years.

Good find, and thanks for posting.:)

theres ground fighting, look at this one...aka "when hillbilies get drunk and fight"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNXhw52M5zw&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

If only they knew ;):D whats 'tap out' in mandarin/cantonese ?

Whatever the Mandarin equivelant for "matte" is.
One does admire that in those days the CMA were far more open to adapt things from other systems, in this case Judo/jujutsu, then their modern counter-parts.

[Hardwork108]

theres ground fighting, look at this one...aka "when hillbilies get drunk and fight"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNXhw52M5zw&feature=related

Actually, that video was pretty good. The fights were full contact and intense, while one could see some Wing Chun essence. I would work more on the solidity of the stances and focus a little more on the angling, as well as emotional control, but hey, the video was not bad. If more Wing Chun practitioners sparred harder (but using WC, not kickboxing), then they would do better in real life encounters.

As for grappling and ground fighting, the fact is that most WC and even other TCMA schools do not delve much into it, so you are not going to see top noch Kung fu grappling that often. Even so, I could see a little bit in that video clip you provided.

By the way, what school/lineage is this Wing Chun?

[LSWCTN1]

Wing Chun groundwork (if it really exists) is bull****

If the patriarch of the style, HW108's sifu, can barely handle a disabled ex-judoka with a couple of (long since passed) training then its redundant anyway

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun groundwork (if it really exists) is bull****

If the patriarch of the style, HW108's sifu, can barely handle a disabled ex-judoka with a couple of (long since passed) training then its redundant anyway

I have to agree with you mate...

WC does posses some of 70 chin na techniques and some basic throws or take downs. But in essence WC is not system devoted to take downs and chin na. It is devoted to striking. Every thing you do from defend and attack, trapping and flanking are tools to control your opponent so you can strike him with out being struck back.


Wing Chun is not a ground fighting art!

There is a major difference between judo,akikido, chin na oppose to BJJ and collegiate wresting!

[Hardwork108]

Wing Chun groundwork (if it really exists) is bull****

If the patriarch of the style, HW108's sifu, can barely handle a disabled ex-judoka with a couple of (long since passed) training then its redundant anyway

What you say and what I "heard" are too different versions. The "disabled" person you speak of was someone who had burn scars from an unfortunate accident from a long time ago.

His limbs were fine, and he was not a small person. He was a current MMAist/Crosstrainer (I know, because I conversed with him) who unlike the hundreds of "Wing Chun" stylists in London who were informed about this seminar, showed up to gain knowledge, and walked out of there with a lot more knowledge than you, because he had the guts to try his MMA on my sifu.

So, why are you implying physical handicap as regards this person???? What would you have done if he had taken you down on the wooden floor with the same force as he did sifu? I bet you might just have been knocked unconscious with that impact!!!

Why LIE?

He took sifu down and within moments was under sifu's control.

I am not sure what your frequent snipes at my sifu are all about. Let me just clarify that one of the reasons we organized that event was for him to present his Mainland Chinese lineage to the WC world, not to start opening up franchises and threaten the business interests of already established Wing Chun franchises - so don't worry!

This silly bad mouthing and Wing chun rivaleries are just that, silly. Also, if you had any doubts about his system's functionality or his own combat skills, that was your chance to show it to him. Yet, years later you are seating behind your keyboard and in a cowardly manner LYING, making implications and bad mouthing him and his system of Wing Chun, to which you have obviously had limited exposure!


By the way, there IS ground fighting in some lineages of Wing Chun as there are in Hsing I - read sifu Mike Patterson's comments in the Kung fu Forum - as regards his Hsing I training many moons ago in Taiwan, as well as his comments regarding all the other kung fu styles that trained ground fighting - "as just another range". Some Shaolin schools also practice the ground.

You "parachuting" in and making snipes at my sifu, is becoming tiring. Save it for the next time he is in your end of the woods!!!!

[Hardwork108]

I have to agree with you mate...

WC does posses some of 70 chin na techniques and some basic throws or take downs. But in essence WC is not system devoted to take downs and chin na. It is devoted to striking. Every thing you do from defend and attack, trapping and flanking are tools to control your opponent so you can strike him with out being struck back.


Wing Chun is not a ground fighting art!

There is a major difference between judo,akikido, chin na oppose to BJJ and collegiate wresting!
No one is claiming that Wing Chun is a "groundfighting" art!

[Yoshiyahu]

No one is claiming that Wing Chun is a "groundfighting" art!

thank you!

[LSWCTN1]

HW108

I have nothing against your sifu. Nothing at all. He was humble. he presented his kung fu as his kung fu, nothing secret, nothing unusual, nothing unique.

I guess my issue may even be with you. or at least the way you try to portray him

he didnt try to be the great grandmaster you try to make him out to be, and yes - it was evident that he's a fighter.

The ex-judo guy was merely that, and ex judo guy who had partial use of one arm. not anything else.

He wasnt taken down hard, he didnt get instant victory either. He got an arm bar but he struggled. Thats the nature of grappling when you have two guys of a similar level

you're relying on second hand information from (perhaps?) another idol worshipping student. You were not there whereas I was. As was Lone Tiger. Your information didnt come from your sifu because he's banished you hasnt he?

If he's ever in town again I'd be happy to meet and play a little with him. Or you. No challenge here before you start with that bs either.

In regards to me and him touching hands - we did, albeit very briefly. he was demoing something and he asked me to stop him. Then told me I moved before I should. Again, there is a first hand witness for this on this forum

to clarify, hes a fighter with a different way for wing chun, which by his own admission has been influenced by the other arts he's studied. I asked that specific question and he gave me that specific answer

he was a nioce enough guy and anyone who thinks otherwise is influenced by your ramblings on here

[wingchunIan]

I have to agree with you mate...

WC does posses some of 70 chin na techniques and some basic throws or take downs. But in essence WC is not system devoted to take downs and chin na. It is devoted to striking. Every thing you do from defend and attack, trapping and flanking are tools to control your opponent so you can strike him with out being struck back.


Wing Chun is not a ground fighting art!

There is a major difference between judo,akikido, chin na oppose to BJJ and collegiate wresting!

Why do people always make the mistake of assuming ground fighting = grappling. Striking whilst on the ground is also ground fighting. IMHO Wing Chun ground work isn't adding in locks, chokes and grappling moves even if labelled as chin na, it is about taking what you do standing up and applying it whilst on the ground. It takes practice and will never work unless its trained regularly but it does work if you persevere.

[Hardwork108]

HW108

I have nothing against your sifu. Nothing at all.
Yes, and I believe you despite you false claims!!!


He was humble.
Finally something positive about him comes out of your writings.


he presented his kung fu as his kung fu,
Everybody's kung fu is "his own kung fu", or at least that is what it becomes when you make it your own. You may have misunderstood him, as his kung fu comes from a valid lineage!


nothing secret,
You didn't expect him to teach you secrets in a seminar, did you? Look any discipline such as kung fu will have secrets. I am not talking about magic powers and fantasy stuff, but the more obscure methodologies.


nothing unusual, nothing unique.
Well it seems that at least the ground fighting training of the style is unique and specially unusual in a forum that most people did not think that ANY kung fu style addressed ground fighting.

There are other unique stuff, but you did not expect to have been taught them all in a seminar, most of which you seem to have misunderstood?


I guess my issue may even be with you. or at least the way you try to portray him
Sorry, but you are "running away"! Quote me something about the way I have portraid him that has rubbed you the wrong way.

The main poing - AGAIN - is that ground fighting training is part of the traditional syllabus of this system, as well as other none Mcdojo TCMAs!


he didnt try to be the great grandmaster you try to make him out to be, and yes - it was evident that he's a fighter.

Again, more LIES! Where did I make him out to be a "great grand master". I mean he is a great sifu, but why do you put words in my mouth in order to justify you immoral forum behavior?


The ex-judo guy was merely that, and ex judo guy who had partial use of one arm. not anything else.
I had actually met the "ex judo" guy. He claimed to be MMA practitioner. He had genuine interest in this rare lineage of wing chun - unlike most WC people who were informed of the seminar! I did not notice anything wrong with his arm.


He wasnt taken down hard, he didnt get instant victory either. He got an arm bar but he struggled. Thats the nature of grappling when you have two guys of a similar level
I remember it differently. Yes you heard right!!!

He was taken down hard on the wooden floor (his back was bruised badly afterwards from the impact). He stopped the other guy quickly.


you're relying on second hand information from (perhaps?)
You would have liked that wouldn't you? LOL!

Or perhaps I just did not want myself identified to the members of the world wide web - kung fu internet forum?


another idol worshipping student.
I am not idol worshipping and I have never been. Furthermore, my sifu does not have any idol worshipping students. He would not like them to be that way. He is well respected and even loved as a sifu and in some cases as a true friend.



You were not there whereas I was. As was Lone Tiger.
Right about now, you should be hypothesising that perhaps I was there too.....;)


Your information didnt come from your sifu because he's banished you hasnt he?

"Banished"? :rolleyes:

More LIES!

Many of you guys have the same MO. You disagree with someone who actually practicies TCMAs and then you invent lies or spread other people's lies, to discredit that person!!


If he's ever in town again I'd be happy to meet and play a little with him. Or you.
I would be happy too!


No challenge here before you start with that bs either.

The "BS" was all yours, not mine, as I am not known for my challenge issuing behavior during the years I have been posting in this forum.

My point before was that if you are going to sit in a seminar and then throw doubt on someone's abilities and credibility, by calling something "BS" - years later - then you are better off "testing" them yourself, when they are standing in front of you.;)


In regards to me and him touching hands - we did, albeit very briefly. he was demoing something and he asked me to stop him. Then told me I moved before I should. Again, there is a first hand witness for this on this forum
I personally do not remember that, it does not sound like him. The person I know, would have patted you on the back and said, "very good".


to clarify, hes a fighter with a different way for wing chun, which by his own admission has been influenced by the other arts he's studied. I asked that specific question and he gave me that specific answer
Then you misunderstood!

That could have been an innocent misunderstanding, or a case of "if my WC doesn't have it, then it must have been added" view point, that may have influenced the way you perceived his words.

He teaches what he teaches out of the style's traditional syllabus. Of course, he puts a lot himself into it, but all real sifus do. That is different from saying that he adds other techniques from other styles. He even advises people not to cross train until they have solid understanding of the style.


he was a nioce enough guy and anyone who thinks otherwise is influenced by your ramblings on here

It seems that you are the one who is rambling.

My "ramblings" should not "influence" anyone as I try to keep my sifu out of most discussions, except for general references to what he teaches when relevant!

I have a Mantis sifu as well, and he teaches a lot of stuff most people have no clue about in this forum.

So, feel free to draw conclusions about him, as well, based on my "ramblings"!!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

makes me smile. :)

[Hardwork108]

makes me smile. :)
Those of us who actually practice the TCMAs contribute, those who don't, merely "smile" (what else can they do? LOL!)......;)

[Yoshiyahu]

i would love to see a WC guy produce those ground techniques agains my sidai who is also wrestler....that would be interesting to see!!!


Why do people always make the mistake of assuming ground fighting = grappling. Striking whilst on the ground is also ground fighting. IMHO Wing Chun ground work isn't adding in locks, chokes and grappling moves even if labelled as chin na, it is about taking what you do standing up and applying it whilst on the ground. It takes practice and will never work unless its trained regularly but it does work if you persevere.

[YouKnowWho]

Why do people always make the mistake of assuming ground fighting = grappling. Striking whilst on the ground is also ground fighting.
It's just like the stand up game, you can't prevent your opponent from getting into clinch on you. How many times the referee has to separate 2 boxers from clinch? In the ground game, if you punch, you will need distance, That distance can be used to against you if your opponent has a chance to raise his legs and wrap you.

[anerlich]

Why do people always make the mistake of assuming ground fighting = grappling. Striking whilst on the ground is also ground fighting. IMHO Wing Chun ground work isn't adding in locks, chokes and grappling moves even if labelled as chin na, it is about taking what you do standing up and applying it whilst on the ground. It takes practice and will never work unless its trained regularly but it does work if you persevere.

IOW, Vale Tudo.

[Dragonzbane76]

Why do people always make the mistake of assuming ground fighting = grappling. Striking whilst on the ground is also ground fighting.

because the two are connected deeply. You have to know the inner workings of ground work to be able to get leverage. The ability to strike with any kind of meaning on the ground is rooted in leverage. If someone knows how to "lock down" someone to where they cannot get seperation then your ability to "ground fight" is null and void. So grappling in itself is the basics of being able to ground fight, because it teaches postioning and movement which in turn give the ability to "ground fight" Why do you think most wrestlers and such are good at Ground and pound? Because they have advantage in being able to dictate the directions and movements on the ground in order to obtain that ability.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00g5a416rdU&sns=fb

[anerlich]

No one is advocating groundfighting by choice in a defense situation with potential multiple attackers. Knee on stomach would have been a better control position for the top guy as it allows a quick detachment and exit. You still need to be aware of your environment as well, i.e groundfighting on a road where getting run over is a possibility is probably not real smart either, and not where there are fat ladies standing around who could kick you in the head.

But thinking you have a choice of where and how you might get attacked or whether or not you might end up on your back during it is delusional.

The unconscious guy looked to have friends there, but none of them thought to move him to safety.

Then again, I'm not convinced this wasn't staged either.

A quick review of the vid indicates all participants and the cameraman would be best removed from the gene pool as we resist the slide toward Idiocracy.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00g5a416rdU&sns=fb

Hah! ......
....

[Phil Redmond]

. . . A quick review of the vid indicates all participants and the cameraman would be best removed from the gene pool as we resist the slide toward Idiocracy.
So they should be cut from the herd? . . . .lol