Did Bruce Lee reach the level of Grandmaster?

[KJW]

:cool:
Hi

I'm new to these forums so please forgive me if I'm asking things that have been asked before.. I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster? I know that he started out with Wing Chun under the great Yip Man, but did his skills surpass those of his teacher?

I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee but my Grandmaster is always quite derogatory about Bruce Lee, saying things like he was one legged and that generally he wasn't as good as he was made out to be.. Despite this I still find myself admiring his abilities and the lengths he went to in order to achieve the level of physical fitness that he did. I find it hard to believe that anyone could have anything other than admiration for someone who was obviously incredibly driven and dedicated to his art.

What are your thoughts on Bruce Lee? Am I buying into the whole mythology that surrounds him or was he as great as I and many others like me believe he was?

Kevin

[hskwarrior]

I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster?

Aside from the given "if his students are teaching their own, then he is grand master"........how does one reach a "GRAND MASTER" level? What determines whether you are or not?

welcome to the forum.......

[KJW]

Thanks for the reply. That opens up another question to which I'd like to know the answer. How do you reach the level of Grandmaster? Is there a formal grading or is it like like you suggested? I've often wondered about that. In theory anybody could call themselves a Grandmaster I guess?
Kevin

[hskwarrior]

Technically, I'm a Grand Master because my grand students call me Sigung. If there is a grading for Grand Master its a new creation to grab up some outsider money. In my opinion, the real indication of GRAND MASTER is time and age as we never stop learning until death.

[KJW]

I've sort of been led to believe that to become a Grandmaster one must be adopted by a Chinese Master and then have the title effectively passed on to you..

I'm so glad that I joined this forum, I think it is going to be most educational. I think it'll help me to cut through the bull and get to the truth about things.
Kev

[David Jamieson]

Just to say it, "Grandmaster" is a fairly new term adopted into the whole scene.
It is derived from the whole verbiage of the filial system of pais (clans/families).

Up until the 80's or so, there was no such thing. But the filial systems remained and then got combined with belt ranks, then on it went down the garden paths until we arrive at the term "grandmaster".

Filial system uses:

Founder - Jo si or si jo
Grandfather/Teacher - si gung
Teacher / Father - si fu
Teacher/Mother (sifu's wife - si mo
Teacher /older brother - si hing
Teacher/ Older sister - si mei
you - whatever your name is. lol

there is also uncles and aunts and such and generally these filial styles didn't use belt rankings.
But then, welcome to america and voila! Culture mix that some like and others consider taint. It can be for sure a bit of both.

as for bruce, if you think he's a grandmaster and learn from what he wrote or one of his students or students, students, then he's your grandmaster...these days anyway. :-)

[YouKnowWho]

Bruce Lee (born Lee Jun-fan; 27 November 1940 – 20 July 1973)...

A 33 years old is just not qualified to be called grandmaster or even master.

[Lebaufist]

It seems to me that the term , to add to DJ's post, was more akin to Masonic lodges.

Which is why the head of the KKK is a "Grand Dragon".

[KJW]

Bruce Lee (born Lee Jun-fan; 27 November 1940 – 20 July 1973)...

A 33 years old is just not qualified to be called grandmaster or even master.

Don't know why you thought it necessary to start your post with his birth and death dates but thanks anyway ;) ....

Personally I don't think age comes into it really, to a point anyway. If he'd have been in his early 20's then I would have agreed with you, but by the time he's 33 he's had about 20 years experience in the Martial Arts.

It's not always about the number of years you have under your belt. You could have someone in their 50's who by your argument would've gained enough years to have earned the right to be called a Grandmaster, but he might have only trained three times a week. Alternatively you could have a man in his prime like Bruce Lee who trained 6 days a week. If you added up the hours of training completed by each you'd probably find that the later actually trained a lot longer than the former.
Kev

[YouKnowWho]

he's had about 20 years experience in the Martial Arts.

20 years is not very long at all.

Bruce Lee did not define training program for:

- beginner level,
- intermediate level,
- advance level,

in enough detail. He came from a TCMA background but he didn't want to use the TCMA method in his JKD. It's like to overthrow an old system by replacing a new system. But his new system is too "abstract" and not well defined yet at his early death. I'm sure if we can give him another 10 or 20 years, his JKD will be different from what we have today.

[hskwarrior]

Personally I don't think age comes into it really, to a point anyway. If he'd have been in his early 20's then I would have agreed with you, but by the time he's 33 he's had about 20 years experience in the Martial Arts.

My sifu used to say "you can tell how good a mans gung fu is by the age he is when he passes away"..........

[Drake]

Bruce Lee was a decent actor and really helped propel TCMA into the mainstream. Aside from that, he was a good fighter (not the best by any stretch of the imagination), very creative, curious, and always researching. He wasn't a master or grandmaster, though. I think people misunderstand those titles and equate them with skill or athletic prowess.

Instead of wondering if he was title this or title that, just appreciate how he helped bring martial arts to westerners. You don't have to be a grandmaster to do great things.

[JamesC]

Not to nitpick, but he wasn't really a fighter either. He had lots of theories and lots of philosophy, but he only ever fought once that I know of. And, no one really knows what happened there.

Just saying.

[KJW]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1137489]20 years is not very long at all.
Bruce Lee did not define training program for:

- beginner level,
- intermediate level,
- advance level,
QUOTE]

I would have to agree with you there, but having read a lot of what he wrote I think what he advocated was mastery by obsorbing elements of many different fighting styles and self development through the application and study of all of the fighting arts whether it be Judo, Boxing, Kung Fu, Karate & Eskrima etc etc..

I can't seem to find it on youtube but there's a famous interview where he says something along the lines of 'as long as fighters have 2 arms & 2 legs then the style is irrelavant'. I think he was looking at the bigger picture and trying to take the best and most effective bits from all types of fighting.

I think as we look back from our modern viewpoint; in the 30 odd years since his death when other people have tried to devolop their own hybrid or bastadised styles; it is easy to forget that when he was questionning the established martial arts styles he was a young man and the first to question and people didn't like it. I think it's important to question rather than to accept what your are taught, if I'm shown a technique and I think it wouldn't be effective or that I could get out of it then I am going to say so, otherwise if I just take it on board and learn it without questionning then it is pretty pointless.

Bruce closed all his schools at one point because he felt that his students were just imitating what he did rather than trying to find there own path. If he would have been given more time I believe he would have formalized a more definate style and yes it probably would have matured but I think the philosophy would have been pretty much the same. I think he left us with was a Martial Arts philosophy rather than a Martial Arts system in the end.
Kev

[Jimbo]

IMO, the word 'grandmaster' is something that's very overused. Other than meaning your teacher's teacher, I personally would feel very uncomfortable being given or using the title, or even the title of 'master.' I kind of doubt BL would have cared about being called such. Personally, I still admire BL for the fact he accomplished many things at a time when much was stacked against him.

Had he lived to the present time, I'm certain his JKD would be much different from what people who practice it are doing now. Like you say, JKD was supposed to be a MA philosophy, and not a MA system. Meaning your interpretation should necessarily differ from BL's because every person is different. In fact, BL would have probably gotten rid of the the name 'JKD' eventually. We don't really know what would have come about, because our image of him is perpetually frozen in time to 1973 and earlier. But the only constant is that people evolve, or should.

Let's not forget that BL was NOT the first MAist to break from tradition and either create a great new tradition, or go on to great fame for his own exploits. Musashi Miyamoto; Judo founder Jigoro Kano; Aikido founder Uyeshiba; Kyosushinkai founder Mas Oyama; Mitsuyo Maeda; as well as the many kung fu practitioners over the centuries whose efforts contributed to the re-emphasis towards combat-oriented arts whenever the trend in kung fu swung too far over into the hua chuan/hsiu tuei {flowery fist/embroidery leg}.

BL accomplished a lot, indeed. But he was neither the first nor the most influential, in a MA sense; not by a long shot.

[bawang]

its highly inappropriate to compare bruce lee to musashi. musashi killed people and fought in a war. bruce lee screamed high pitched noises in movies.


bruce lee made zero impact on martial arts. in the 1800s the most popular ma were catch wrestling and judo and boxing. its still the same sh1t in 2011.

what bruce lee did do is make a freakshow out of kung fu and adding one more way to humiliate chinese people.

[Lucas]

Musashi is my martial arts hero.

[Lucas]

Hey KJW Google an online PDF book titled 'Unsettled Matters' for additional insight into Bruce Lee's life. I'm on my phone or I would link. Its a good read, any Bruce Lee fan should read it for perspective.

[PalmStriker]

Aside from the given "if his students are teaching their own, then he is grand master"........how does one reach a "GRAND MASTER" level? What determines whether you are or not?

welcome to the forum.......
You have to be old to be a GrandMaster. Old and deadly. Bruce, like Jimi died young.

[lance]

:cool:
Hi

I'm new to these forums so please forgive me if I'm asking things that have been asked before.. I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster? I know that he started out with Wing Chun under the great Yip Man, but did his skills surpass those of his teacher?

I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee but my Grandmaster is always quite derogatory about Bruce Lee, saying things like he was one legged and that generally he wasn't as good as he was made out to be.. Despite this I still find myself admiring his abilities and the lengths he went to in order to achieve the level of physical fitness that he did. I find it hard to believe that anyone could have anything other than admiration for someone who was obviously incredibly driven and dedicated to his art.

What are your thoughts on Bruce Lee? Am I buying into the whole mythology that surrounds him or was he as great as I and many others like me believe he was?

KevinNot really kevin , there are some people who like bruce lee as the way he was , and there were some people who did ' nt like bruce lee at all . I ' m just sharing my thoughts with you . Bruce lee ' s life , martial arts training , carreer , was always in the center of controversies . We ' ve had aguments about him on this forum . That the moderators of this forum , have decided to close the bruce lee topic . I myself was involved in those bruce lee topics . But , I ' m a bruce lee fan , kevin go to The Bruce Lee Collection. com And you ' ll find souveniers and memorbilias about bruce lee . And you know people will always criticize bruce lee all they can .

Bruce was ' nt a GrandMaster or a master , he was just a student of wing chun kung fu . But also had training in various types of martial arts in general . But to me bruce developed himself and evolved himself as a martial artist . Kevin overall no matter what people say about him , he was the greatest martial artist who ever lived , but besides him , there were Ed Parker , Chuck Norris , Joe Lewis , And many other masters of the martial arts . Just like Dan Inosanto when he got his blackbelt in the Ed Parker system of Kenpo , dan went onto train with bruce , infact a majority of Ed Parkers' students went onto train with bruce . To research bruce lee get those books written by Jesse Glover , you can get it through Warriorvideos.net . Which is what I did , it ' s true he ' s dead but his legacy still lives whenever people talk about him .

Do your own research through books kevin or get some information on this topic thread too , concerning bruce himself . You can talk to people but , you still have to verify the information you have now with them .

In the world of the CMA , if you ' re very proficient in your own skills then the Grand Master will promote you into sifu . But lets say your Grand Master will retire , and only has you to carry on the teachings of your art . Because , besides you there is no one else . Then your GM will eventually pass on the torch of GM to you . And from there hopefully , one of your student becomes skillful that , he gets promoted by you , to the next level . Every school of kung fu has it ' s own tradition of promoting from student into advance level , master , grandmaster .

Every martial arts master will in turn have there own way of promoting there students into the next level until they reach master and GM level . Provided that your skill in the martial arts is similar to your GM .


Kevin , if you checked out the JKD book that bruce wrote himself , you can tell that he did his own research towards the evolvement and development of his own JKD . To me other martial artist did ' nt mind learning martial arts from bruce ,
because they knew that he was the best . But the masters who talk bad about him , probably are jealous of him . Because what took other martial artist many years of their lives to reach mastery level , it took bruce only a short period of time to master a technique . Bruce was a non traditionalists who did ' nt like tradition , although he respected tradition . And he did ' nt believe in styles anymore as times went by for him . He just took the techniques that was useful for him and reject what was less essential . Overall to me he was the man .

[Northwind]

I have not read post but I have to say that in answer to the question no and you're severely mentally limited if you think anything close to yes.

[Scott R. Brown]

Bruce Lee was neither a MASTER, nor a GRANDMASTER!

He WAS an excellent Showman!

We do not know what kind of a fighter he was, but from his movies we can deduce his level of skill. His skill was above average for his time, but he was not advanced nor excelptional in ability.

His philosophical and theoretical thinking was not particularly advanced either. He merely reintroduced to a more modern audience questions, theories and philosophies that have been in the minds of Martial Artists for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

He read alot and took what he liked from what others had written for his own personal use. There is nothing wrong with this, however this ideas only appear deep to those who are unfamiliar with these ideas, theories and philosophies, NOT to those who are familiar with them and their originators.

He was neither an innovator, nor a originalist! He was a popularizer through his unique approach to film production and fight choreography which was designed to MAKE HIM LOOK GOOD!

Add to all this his mysterious and untimely death at the apex of his popularity and good marketing and we got a phenomenon that inspired generations of young martial artists.

Fascination with Bruce Lee can be a great motivator for a young Marital Artist, that is young in training, NOT young in age. However, if one is still fascinated to the point of worshiping, or blind devotion to the IDEA of Bruce Lee, as they further their Martial Arts experience, then they have not matured adequately.

________________________________

On the matter of a young Master or Grandmaster.....

Age does matter. It is immaterial whether one has trained, 20 hours a day for 15 years and is 20 years or old or not. Ability withers with age, injury and infirmity. It is experience, wisdom and understanding of theories, principles and applications that determine one's maturational classification. 15 to 20 years is NOT enough experience for one to be equated with TRUE MASTERS and GRANDMASTERS, both terms which have been overused to the point of rendering them meaningless anyway.

Now days these terms are used for marketing and one-up-manship purposes. :rolleyes:

[RenDaHai]

I always thought Grandmaster was a term made up by McDojos...

I have lived in china a long time and I speak the language.

1. 师父 Shifu is a term given by the disciple not anyone else. If someone chooses to call you Shifu thats his thing. The SHI means teacher, The FU is Father. Teacher father.

2. I use the term ShiYe (YE = Grandfather) to refer to my Master. That is because he is 89 years old... and old enough to be my grandfather. If I was 50 i would call him shifu.

3. I have never heard the word sigung, i assume it is a southern thing.

These are family terms and do not in any way imply the level of teacher. It simply means you are a disciple in the family.

Shifu DOES NOT mean master in the western sense. It means a teacher who is like a father. Master in terms of someone who is expert at their skill is called 'HaoShou'好手 or Gaoshou' 高手 lit. 'good hand' and 'high hand' respectively. You would only use these terms to describe someone and not to address them.

4. We have the term DaShi or great teacher. It implies fame. You wouldnt refer to your own teacher as Dashi. If he was famous and you were a long way below you may use it. It is unusual in wushu and is more commonly used for buddhist or taoist masters.

Dashi is probably the closest to word to grandmaster. But I don't think it would be appropriate for Bruce because he was more famous as an expert than as a teacher.

In China we refer to Bruce as a 'Wulin Gaoshou' An expert of the martial arts. (Wulin means 'the forest of wushu' and refers to the fraternity of wushu experts).

Hope that helps.

[KJW]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a Bruce Lee obsessive by the way. In fact for a long time I didn't think he was that good at all. I'm beginning to come full circle now and I am starting to appreciate his skill a bit more as I look around and outside of my own style in order to improve my own skill and understanding as a Martial Artist.
I've been studying a variant Crane Style for about 10 years, I'm in my mid 30's.. I'm thinking of maybe taking up Wing Chun and stopping going to my current school within the next couple of years. Not that I feel I have completely mastered Crane Style (not by a long way) but I think the combination of some of the techniques we apply in my current style and the techniques within Wing Chun would compliment each other and make me a more complete Martial Artist.
Kevin

[PlumDragon]

If you created a system, are the lineage holder of one, are the top ranking individual, etc, then grand master seems to currently be the most common title in use, both inside of CMA and outside.

Bruce Lee would be considered a GM under that definition.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1W7tc2b3s&feature=share

if you know your self and your limits, then you are a master of yourself.

if you struggle to maintain or exceed your limits, then you are a grand master of yourself.

did not know italian, but knew hungry and must eat.

ordered 6 items, but they were all soups or creme.

knowing need to find toilet.

one more glass of water, knowing it is too much.

knowing need to find toilet.

know your self

know your limit.

then you are a master of your self.

--

[bawang]

grandmaster is the american interpretation of the japanese ranking system, where humility and humbleness is mistaken for inferiority and submission. hence "master".

[SPJ]

Bruce Lee wanted egg soup or egg flower soup or dan hua tang.

but other soups will work.

learn and adapt--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1W7tc2b3s&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJPV-x1l3s&feature=related

real fighting involving a group of people, weapon, firearms, tactics and strategy

knowing when and where to advance or withdraw.

when and where to do frontal or flanking the rear assault

--

my point is that

if you know your strength and weakness, and if you know your opponent's strength and weakness

you may "master"---

--

:)

[Jimbo]

its highly inappropriate to compare bruce lee to musashi. musashi killed people and fought in a war. bruce lee screamed high pitched noises in movies.


bruce lee made zero impact on martial arts. in the 1800s the most popular ma were catch wrestling and judo and boxing. its still the same sh1t in 2011.

what bruce lee did do is make a freakshow out of kung fu and adding one more way to humiliate chinese people.

True, regarding Musashi. My only comparison was to point out that he (Musashi) was a MAist (who was almost certainly the most famous) to break from accepted 'traditions' and prove his effectiveness. There are way too many people who think that BL was the first man in history to do that, which is ridiculous. I'm sure as long as MA have been in existence, people have gone outside of the accepted norms and raised the level of MA. I put the people I listed as above (actually, way above) BL in terms of influence in MA.

[XinKuzi]

Bruce Lee was a bit like Steve Jobs (or vice versa) in a way. Neither created anything new, they just made the old look hip and flashy.

[Fa Xing]

First, most of us Jun Fan Gung fu/JKD practitioners refer to Bruce as Sijo.

Second, Bruce had a set curriculum for what he taught; and while that curriculum has now changed over the years with his students, it was pretty well set by the LA Chinatown era.

Bruce Lee had plenty of street fights growing up, and there are plenty of anecdotal stories of him fighting other martial artists here the states, particularly Wong Jack Man which was the catalyst for his development of Jeet Kune Do.

On the set of "Enter the Dragon" he fought a challenge match that was seen by the entire crew, and was even captured on film but that film was later destroyed by Warner Bros. because they thought it had nothing to do with the film itself.

Another thing, Bruce also fought in a boxing championship while in high school growing up in Hong Kong, and he supposedly fought a Thai boxer in Thailand while shooting the Big Boss.

Bruce may not have killed anyone, but he certainly had experience to back up his fighting philosophy. Plus, much of the focus mitts, kicking shields, and protective equipment came Bruce and his group because they were the very few in the US doing any full contact at the time. Don't believe me, go ask Dan Inosanto and Jerry Poteet, they'll tell you how it was.

Most people bash Bruce because they are 100% ignorant of what he was doing back then. They see his movies, which he obviously modified his movements so they looked better on the screen, and think to themselves that was all there is. Bull****!

Go read his notes, and really take some time to think about what he was talking about. If you still don't get it, go out and train under some of his students. But don't be a god**** keyboard warrior, trashing someone who has been dead for almost 40 years.

Was Bruce Lee a grandmaster? I don't know, and don't really care, what I do is use his example and discover myself through martial arts whether it's hitting a heavy bag or full contact sparring.

Peace.

[Drake]

Not even the dead are safe here. You should know that by now.

At any rate, most here agree with you. I don't understand why people get so hung up on what "title" he held. He did a lot of good things for the TCMA community, and made a lot of fun movies. If anything, he was a cultural icon, and redefined a lot of misconceptions westerners held.

He did a lot more good than harm.

[Jimbo]

Well, I personally wasn't trashing BL. Of course he was far more than his movies, and what he did in the movies was obviously modified for the screen. There are many people who do trash BL online, no doubt. It's an unfortunate trend in forums that many like to look for another person's flaws (or perceived flaws) and focus on them. However, just because every sentence that's written about him in a particular post isn't singing all of his praises does not necessarily equal trashing or disrespecting him.

Keep in mind that BL studied the writings and/or skills of many greats too, including Jack Dempsey, Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, etc., as well as accounts of Tsukahara Bokuden, and other ancient Japanese writings on swordsmanship, etc. He simply modified some of the sword writing philosophies to apply to his empty-hand philosophy. There are others who have done at least as much, but are not household names in the West. As well I know many name MAists also learned from him.

I have always respected BL for what he had accomplished. What I haven't agreed with is those who say he was the greatest MAist who ever lived, or the only one who ever went outside of the accepted traditions of his time. I met Dan Inosanto in 1982, and he was one of the best MAists I've ever seen. IMO, he epitomized what BL said JKD should be; that is, making your MA your own, without being hindered by the limitations of a system or belief. Not to mention a very confident yet humble person.

[TenTigers]

Nothing gets by us!!
You hear me? Nothing!!!!!


:d

[bawang]

i critisize bruce lee because he is my chilese brother. if you kiss ass thats not true respect.

[Brule]

I know a lot of folks have Bruce on a pedestal for his movies, philosophy, training methods, etc....so i bought into it one day and decided to have a look years ago. Watched Enter the Dragon and was so bored outta my mind. I can't say he was a decent actor even. His onscreen 'fights' were nothing to be proud of. I think people got caught up in Bruce because he brought his MA into the open where there may not be that much exposure to the American audiences at that time. But to be calling him a great fighter, grandmaster, master etc...is a little far fetched. Let's not worry about who has what title, it makes no difference in your skill, instead worry about practising every day and refining what you have.

[SPJ]

to me and my brothers: bruce lee for wc/boxing, rocky for boxing or rambo for fighting

are the same on the big screen.

1. know your limits (strength and weakness)

2. training hard daily to exceed limits or pushing up the ceiling/envelop.

most important doing things straight from the heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hks5pXbV21A

:)

[Scott R. Brown]

I know a lot of folks have Bruce on a pedestal for his movies, philosophy, training methods, etc....so i bought into it one day and decided to have a look years ago. Watched Enter the Dragon and was so bored outta my mind. I can't say he was a decent actor even. His onscreen 'fights' were nothing to be proud of. I think people got caught up in Bruce because he brought his MA into the open where there may not be that much exposure to the American audiences at that time. But to be calling him a great fighter, grandmaster, master etc...is a little far fetched. Let's not worry about who has what title, it makes no difference in your skill, instead worry about practising every day and refining what you have.

Keep in mind the movie is now 40 years old! It was ground breaking in its day compared to what else was being produced. Even his skills were an improvement on what was showcased in other movies. I mean, come on! Sonny Chiba? Shaw Brothers? The other movies available at the time rarely showcased much in the way of skills! Sure, it doesn't hold up to modern "good" martial arts movies, but nothing back then does!

Also, the movie was not meant to show martial arts as much as it was to showcase Bruce and his muscles, LOL!

[Brule]

Maybe you're right Scott in that i am comparing to more modern action sequences, but nevertheless, i think you hit the nail in that the movies were more about showcasing Bruce than showcasing MA. He did want to be a 'star' didn't he?

[Kevin73]

Since the term grandmaster is a japanese use of their ranking system. I would say that BL was not a grandmaster. He could be called a "sijo" or founder if what he taught could be a system, which it wasn't. It was a set of concepts to try and teach someone how to learn and create their own approach. Some people have turned it into a set system and only teach what BL taught. Others, such as his top student Dan Inosanto, teach the concepts but incorporate many other arts that BL never studied or learned (FMA's, BJJ, Muay Thai).

BL was a product of the times. Movies like "Logan's Run" were very popular with their anti-authority stance and not to trust the establishment. Most of BL's "notes" were direct copies of other books. Linda Lee published his private notes on books and claimed that they were his own ideas when she published "The Tao of JKD" after his death, and no citations were given as to where they originally came from. BL studied with lots of other people in California who were already combining arts and studying with each other (contact with Kajukenbo crowd and stayed with Ed Parker), that wasn't new either. BL's main thing was he was famous so people listened to him, just like today. An actor makes a political statement and we somehow give it more weight.

BL also wasn't challenged because he taught non-chinese. BL was non-chinese to the chinese because he was half german and born in the US. Ark Wong and others already had schools in California open to anyone. That nonsense was just marketing to build more hype and have people buy into the anti-establishment stuff.

I think he was a very talented athlete who was honest about finding things out for himself. But, we will never know where his journey would have taken him. Some of those that knew him (Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell) have stated that he was very gifted, but shallow in his knowledge, so I would not say he was a master either.

[Ray Pina]

Bruce Lee created his own style JKD.

If he is or isn't a grandmaster depends on how you view it. His students have students, so that makes him a grand master.

The question is, was he ever granted permission to teach or to claim a style. He didn't train Wing Chun very long. He didn't train any one style too long.

I don't hold that against him. If one has spent about 7 years training, they can pick up other style attributes relatively quickly.

I admire Bruce Lee for his persona, spirt and most of all movies. I love his movies and the characters he plays in them.

But to the heart of your question, I view Bruce Lee as a lifelong, dedicated martial artists. He wasn't an exemplary fighter in his day. He's not like Chuck Lidell or even Chuck Norris... fighters who went to the screen. Bruce Lee was first and foremost an actor..... like Marky Mark in The Fighter. Or Sylvestor Stalone in Rocky.

Inspiring characters. But you have to view them healthily as a man, and not as a child with popcorn in one's lap.

[GeneChing]

International Icon > Grandmaster

:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

International Icon > Grandmaster

:rolleyes:

True enough, true enough. lol

[Ray Pina]

International Icon > Grandmaster

:rolleyes:

Yes and no.

Bruce will be remembered forever... he also had an early death.

Bruce Lee is the Golden Turtle shell on the emperor's wall.... a grandmaster turtle is content living out his long years with his foot in the mud.

But the reason I love Bruce Lee is because he was a rebel and did what he wanted even if it cost him his life. That's living.

[hskwarrior]

Yes and no.

Bruce will be remembered forever... he also had an early death.

there is NO bigger martial artist than bruce lee. not even Chuck Fukkin Norris....LOL.

He is KUNG FU........the ICON.

Interntational ICON for gung fu? YES....no NO....YES. all else is personal opinion.

[Ray Pina]

there is NO bigger martial artist than bruce lee.

Perspective:
Bruce Lee made movies and rode around Hollywood in fast cars with fast women... special forces military personal anonymously risk, and often give, their life to protect the lives and lifestyles of total strangers. One swung nunchucks on set..... the other are experts in hand to hand to every weapon.... can kill with a paper clip. Actually kill and get killed in battle.

See what I mean?

[David Jamieson]

Perspective:
Bruce Lee made movies and rode around Hollywood in fast cars with fast women... special forces military personal anonymously risk, and often give, their life to protect the lives and lifestyles of total strangers. One swung nunchucks on set..... the other are experts in hand to hand to every weapon.... can kill with a paper clip. Actually kill and get killed in battle.

See what I mean?

Ask anyone aged 19 or older: "who's Bruce Lee" and they'll tell you. Maybe, they're even do a hooooooeeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhhhwwoooooooweeeeee for ya.

But ask anyone to name 3 members of a JTF2 squad or a Seal group?

It's silly to try and minimize the existence of an Elephant when it is standing on your foot.

[hskwarrior]

Perspective:
Bruce Lee made movies and rode around Hollywood in fast cars with fast women... special forces military personal anonymously risk, and often give, their life to protect the lives and lifestyles of total strangers. One swung nunchucks on set..... the other are experts in hand to hand to every weapon.... can kill with a paper clip. Actually kill and get killed in battle.

See what I mean?

No, bruce lee was more than a movie actor. He was obvisously skilled in the martial arts. has anyone ever seen him actually fight full contact? a few. But Bruce Lee was one of those kind of sifu's who'd send his students out to try and test others. allegedly, even the green hornet was sent out to test other styles. Bruce had the hardest time dealing with Choy Lee Fut people, which including the lineage I represent.

I know what you mean, i just don't see things as if its not elite its not worth being part of. I don't understand the elitists attitude. and i don't agree with it.

[Fa Xing]

Perspective: Bruce Lee made movies and rode around Hollywood in fast cars with fast women...

You mean his wife...?

[Fa Xing]

Bruce had the hardest time dealing with Choy Lee Fut people, which including the lineage I represent.

Interesting, like to know where you got that little bit of info...never heard that before.

Be nice to spar someone from Choy Lee Fat lineage just to see for myself.:)

[hskwarrior]

Interesting, like to know where you got that little bit of info...never heard that before.

Be nice to spar someone from Choy Lee Fat lineage just to see for myself.

there are many schools in los angeles. take your pic.

are you aware that bruce lee said something to the effect of "Choy lee fut is one of the most complete systems offensively and defensively?

[Fa Xing]

there are many schools in los angeles. take your pic.

are you aware that bruce lee said something to the effect of "Choy lee fut is one of the most complete systems offensively and defensively?

No, but that depends on how close he was to his death when he made that quote. He also had the habit of saying that he did not believe in styles or systems. :cool:

[hskwarrior]

No, but that depends on how close he was to his death when he made that quote. He also had the habit of saying that he did not believe in styles or systems.

How close to his death? why does that matter? Bruce Lee died at 33 years old. And anyone over the age of 18 knows that he wasn't for the classical blah blah blah....thats old news.
17 years of JKD and you never heard what bruce lee had to say about Choy Lee Fut?

According to Bruce Lee:

"Choy Li Fut is the most effective system that I've seen for fighting more than one person. [It] is one of the most difficult styles to attack and defend against. Choy Li Fut is the only style [of kung fu] that traveled to Thailand to fight the Thai boxers and hadn't lost." –Bruce Lee

[Fa Xing]

How close to his death? why does that matter? Bruce Lee died at 33 years old. And anyone over the age of 18 knows that he wasn't for the classical blah blah blah....thats old news.
17 years of JKD and you never heard what bruce lee had to say about Choy Lee Fut?

Because anyone who knows of Bruce Lee's evolution knows that he changed his opinion regarding traditional martial arts 5 years before his death, and continued to move towards being against styles, systems, and teaching large groups of students.

Hell, he closed his own schools a few years before he died because he felt even his own students were getting the wrong idea about his instruction, certifications, etc.

[Jimbo]

BL had said that CLF was one of the best arts for fighting against multiple opponents, and that CLF was very difficult to defend against.

Someone may or may not believe in styles/systems, but that doesn't mean that other people who train in styles/systems aren't highly effective with it, or that he couldn't acknowledge that.

[hskwarrior]

Because anyone who knows of Bruce Lee's evolution knows that he changed his opinion regarding traditional martial arts 5 years before his death, and continued to move towards being against styles, systems, and teaching large groups of students.

Hell, he closed his own schools a few years before he died because he felt even his own students were getting the wrong idea about his instruction, certifications, etc.

Oh i know this. But, i also think Bruce got it wrong as well. See, you can't run if you've never crawled or walked before. Bruce wanted them to have his mentality on martial arts, but he traveled that road to gain that insight. students who have never learned much less heard of any type of gung fu before would never comprehend what he was meaning back then. today, martial arts is so commerical its a house hold name in some cases. But back then, gung fu was still rare for the united states. However, Choy Lee Fut had been in america since the 1920's

[Ray Pina]

Who hasn't had a number of street fights throughout their teen years? That doesn't make someone a martial art expert.

I acknowledge his lifetime pursuit of martial arts. I love him and understand why so many others do..... but as a dedicated martial artist, I can appreciate and love the painted faced Opera performer. But I haven't lost sight, recognize the world of difference between the professional Opera performer/martial hobbyist, and the professional samurai going out to battle.

This is related to form.

Jet Li has done the amazing on film to the point Tyson looks dull in reality.

Bruce Lee = John Wayne.

[Jimbo]

Oh i know this. But, i also think Bruce got it wrong as well. See, you can't run if you've never crawled or walked before. Bruce wanted them to have his mentality on martial arts, but he traveled that road to gain that insight. students who have never learned much less heard of any type of gung fu before would never comprehend what he was meaning back then. today, martial arts is so commerical its a house hold name in some cases. But back then, gung fu was still rare for the united states. However, Choy Lee Fut had been in america since the 1920's

Correct. You can't 'chip away at the inessentials' if you don't have a block of experience to chip away from.

In many cases, being overly attached to being beyond systems, beyond method, etc., can itself be its own trap, if it becomes an obsession.

[Fa Xing]

Oh i know this. But, i also think Bruce got it wrong as well. See, you can't run if you've never crawled or walked before. Bruce wanted them to have his mentality on martial arts, but he traveled that road to gain that insight. students who have never learned much less heard of any type of gung fu before would never comprehend what he was meaning back then. today, martial arts is so commerical its a house hold name in some cases. But back then, gung fu was still rare for the united states. However, Choy Lee Fut had been in america since the 1920's

Of course no one would understand if they haven't walked that path themselves, and I wouldn't have understood now if I hadn't started at some other time with various martial arts. But we weren't talking about that, we're just talking about Bruce's view of TMA.

Not sure what Choy Lee Fut's existence in the US has to do with anything.

[hskwarrior]

Who hasn't had a number of street fights throughout their teen years? That doesn't make someone a martial art expert

It doesn't make him a NON FIGHTER either. Pro, Semi Pro, Amateur, or street level....a fighter is a figher.

i don't think anyone calls him a martial art expert. He is indeed the GUNG FU ICON.....hands down.

[KJW]

Correct. You can't 'chip away at the inessentials' if you don't have a block of experience to chip away from.

In many cases, being overly attached to being beyond systems, beyond method, etc., can itself be its own trap, if it becomes an obsession.

I agree, I think Bruce had elevated his understanding to the level where he was in a position to leave the idea of systems & styles behind.. If he was guilty of anything I think perhaps it was that he expected too much too soon from his students, who on the whole hadn't gone on the journey of discovery that he had.

Obviously that observation doesn't apply to some of the already veteran martial artists he trained with such as Dan Inosanto, but to people like Steve McQueen & James Coburn I think it was perhaps too much of a leap..

[hskwarrior]

Not sure what Choy Lee Fut's existence in the US has to do with anything

Thats my bad. I love bruce, knew of him long before i took CLF.......thats my bad. Its just we've had our dealings with bruce in the past and i'm proud of our CLF lineage. my bad.

[hskwarrior]

I agree, I think Bruce had elevated his understanding to the level where he was in a position to leave the idea of systems & styles behind.. If he was guilty of anything I think perhaps it was that he expected too much too soon from his students, who on the whole hadn't gone on the journey of discovery that he had.

Obviously that observation doesn't apply to some of the already veteran martial artists he trained with such as Dan Inosanto, but to people like Steve McQueen & James Coburn I think it was perhaps too much of a leap..

We all do. or at least we should. I personally refer to it as "the light bulb turning on"....when it does you start seeing that all fighting is relative. nothing is secret. and the truth lies within yourself and not the style you study. its when you hit certain levels and realize you have to go back to basics each and every time....albeit you are on different stages each time.

[Fa Xing]

Thats my bad. I love bruce, knew of him long before i took CLF.......thats my bad. Its just we've had our dealings with bruce in the past and i'm proud of our CLF lineage. my bad.

No harm, no foul. Any recommendations of CLF schools in LA, preferably closer to Glendale, CA.

[hskwarrior]

No harm, no foul. Any recommendations of CLF schools in LA, preferably closer to Glendale, CA.

Right on. i have to look into who's in that area. I know i have my preferences regardless of CLF lineage. there are some good ones. One would be Frank Primicias.

[SPJ]

http://twitter.com/#!/ShyhwenPeterJaw/status/126048340327665666/photo/1

tao of JKD.

Good.

:cool:

[GeneChing]

Perspective:
special forces military personal anonymously risk, and often give, their life to protect the lives and lifestyles of total strangers. So special forces military personal are all grandmasters?

[hskwarrior]

So special forces military personal are all grandmasters?

Yes, special forces have to have special titles :D

[Ray Pina]

So special forces military personal are all grandmasters?

No. They're "bigger martial artists" than Bruce Lee.

John Wayne may be the most recognizable, most called-to-name cowboy actor. He's not "the biggest" cowboy.

[Ray Pina]

Not recognizing the difference gives the honor deserved to the men who forged their difficult way of life to persons who portrayed that way of life...

Bruce Lee was a college student who opened a Chop Suey Kung Fu school and got a break in Hollywood. And moviegoers everywhere made him famous..... he's not Musashi.

[Lucas]

I would have hung out with bruce lee.

[hskwarrior]

There's a karate school called Belliso's Karate, Bruce Lee used to teach upstairs from it.

[GeneChing]

Not recognizing the difference gives the honor deserved to the men who forged their difficult way of life to persons who portrayed that way of life...

Bruce Lee was a college student who opened a Chop Suey Kung Fu school and got a break in Hollywood. And moviegoers everywhere made him famous..... he's not Musashi.

Just how is recognizing Bruce Lee as a global icon dishonoring those others? In the same fashion, John Wayne could well be considered the 'biggest' cowboy because he was the most famous. It depends on how you define 'big'. He may not have been the most authentic cowboy, but when most people think cowboy, they think John Wayne. Same goes for Bruce. You can't disregard the power of pop culture.

[goju]

No. They're "bigger martial artists" than Bruce Lee.

John Wayne may be the most recognizable, most called-to-name cowboy actor. He's not "the biggest" cowboy.

The comparison you're attempting to draw makes absolutely no sense and babbling on isn't helping the matter any more. Learn when to quit already lol

[Lucas]

about bruce lee and martial arts:

imo bruce lee, at the hight of his physical peak, had some really good attributes for a fighter. However he was not a 'fighter' in the sense that he did not participated in regular fight competition. However, I dont doubt that with his physical abilities, if one were to throw down with bruce lee, it would have been a real fight. I dont think for a second that someone in that condition would be a simple push over, no way man, you'd be deluding yourself to think that, you have to be realisitc, the guy was fast and strong...arguably the most important attributes for a fighter. Someone that focused on building those attributes and being able to punch and kick with average to above average force... Those simple factors alone are enough evidence to support the claim that the guy could have been a handful in a squared up man to man fight.

I'm no bruce lee nut rider. but i also call it like i see it. the guy, while no matt hughes or anderson silva, likely could have given many people a run for their money in a kick boxing match.

I dont think samo hung is a huge sissy, and we all know if he kicked bruce lees ass he never would have shut up about it. so either it was a draw or he lost.

[Ray Pina]

Just how is recognizing Bruce Lee as a global icon dishonoring those others?

I'm not arguing that Bruce Lee is a global icon. He is. I love him.

I'm saying calling Bruce Lee the Biggest martial artists is like calling John Waybe the Biggest cowboy.... Bruce Lee did not walk the path of a warrior. We're going to label him the ideal image of a martial artist?

[Lucas]

i think the biggest martial artists of our day include matt hughes, anderson silva, fedor emeliananko, randy couture, chuck liddel, and more.

[goju]

I'm not arguing that Bruce Lee is a global icon. He is. I love him.

I'm saying calling Bruce Lee the Biggest martial artists is like calling John Waybe the Biggest cowboy.... Bruce Lee did not walk the path of a warrior. We're going to label him the ideal image of a martial artist?


Uh we are talking about hand to hand fighting arts here not war fare. Therefore your comparison makes no **** sense.:D

[Fa Xing]

I'm not arguing that Bruce Lee is a global icon. He is. I love him.

I'm saying calling Bruce Lee the Biggest martial artists is like calling John Waybe the Biggest cowboy.... Bruce Lee did not walk the path of a warrior. We're going to label him the ideal image of a martial artist?

I beg to differ on that 110%, he was all about the path of the warrior. It is in my personal opinion that he was approaching the ideal of all martial artists (not the violent psychopaths who happen to practice martial arts), that is the ability not to have to fight, but still win. Hence, his use of the phrase "the art of fighting without fighting."

[hskwarrior]

I beg to differ on that 110%, he was all about the path of the warrior. It is in my personal opinion that he was approaching the ideal of all martial artists (not the violent psychopaths who happen to practice martial arts), that is the ability not to have to fight, but still win. Hence, his use of the phrase "the art of fighting without fighting."

oh snap.....waiting for Mr. Pina's response.....he has so many.

[PalmStriker]

Bruce Lee's V-frame put the wings in Wing Chun. His intercepting fist was like the intercepting wing chun frontal kick, um, only with his hand.:)

[lance]

First, most of us Jun Fan Gung fu/JKD practitioners refer to Bruce as Sijo.

Second, Bruce had a set curriculum for what he taught; and while that curriculum has now changed over the years with his students, it was pretty well set by the LA Chinatown era.

Bruce Lee had plenty of street fights growing up, and there are plenty of anecdotal stories of him fighting other martial artists here the states, particularly Wong Jack Man which was the catalyst for his development of Jeet Kune Do.

On the set of "Enter the Dragon" he fought a challenge match that was seen by the entire crew, and was even captured on film but that film was later destroyed by Warner Bros. because they thought it had nothing to do with the film itself.

Another thing, Bruce also fought in a boxing championship while in high school growing up in Hong Kong, and he supposedly fought a Thai boxer in Thailand while shooting the Big Boss.

Bruce may not have killed anyone, but he certainly had experience to back up his fighting philosophy. Plus, much of the focus mitts, kicking shields, and protective equipment came Bruce and his group because they were the very few in the US doing any full contact at the time. Don't believe me, go ask Dan Inosanto and Jerry Poteet, they'll tell you how it was.

Most people bash Bruce because they are 100% ignorant of what he was doing back then. They see his movies, which he obviously modified his movements so they looked better on the screen, and think to themselves that was all there is. Bull****!

Go read his notes, and really take some time to think about what he was talking about. If you still don't get it, go out and train under some of his students. But don't be a god**** keyboard warrior, trashing someone who has been dead for almost 40 years.

Was Bruce Lee a grandmaster? I don't know, and don't really care, what I do is use his example and discover myself through martial arts whether it's hitting a heavy bag or full contact sparring.

Peace.
Fa Xing , nice topic posts on Bruce Lee , and I agree with you too , thanks alot for posting this topic post on bruce lee , so that everyone can read it , for those people who don ' t believe in bruce lee at all . It ' s true though , you have to read all those materials written about him , in order to get to know the man , himself .

[Ray Pina]

Again, I admire Bruce Lee as a person, as a dedicated student of martial arts but his fame is tied to his acting career. His movies.

The labeling of him here as "the biggest martial artists" doesn't surprise me. This is a forum that raises people with nothing more than essentially technique instruction on cooperating students as masters.

This is not to belittle Bruce Lee. As correctly pointed out, he is an icon. He was my hero as a boy.

No that I am a man, it's important to help others think more clearly. Physical combat is awesome because it doesn't care who your parents are. It doesn't care if you grew up in the toughest ghetto.... it pits you as an individual against another in violent confrontation.

Like it or not, this is what martial arts are about. You can add what you like. Pray to Buddha if you think it helps. Martial arts are about destruction... the way you do it is the creative.

Bruce Lee had speed, determination.....those are attributes that help a fighter. Most fast determined men, including Bruce Lee, do not choose a life of combat.

Musashi is a much better example of a true martial arts hero. Just as Billy the Kid, Jessie James, ect., are better examples of cowboys than John Wayne.

This isn't something I would argue with "the public." They think Jersey Shore and Millionaire House Wives is drama.... they only know what the TV tells them. But again, I'm not amazed to find myself arguing here that an actor is not "the best martial artists."

This place lists tons of martial experts who never faced a real opponent. So its fitting I guess and helps perpetuate the ezine world view: anyone can be a martial artist if they buy the uniform, shoes and sash.

[David Jamieson]

For the record, Gene Autry is the biggest cowboy. John Wayne was a tough guy. So tough, he took a dump and Chuck Norris was in the world!

BL is what he is. He's synonymous with martial arts and Kung fu in particular.
You can see his face in many dojos, dojangs, gwoons and yes, even in mma gyms you'll find Bruce on da wall.

that's his reward for what he did.

[hskwarrior]

The labeling of him here as "the biggest martial artists" doesn't surprise me. This is a forum that raises people with nothing more than essentially technique instruction on cooperating students as masters

Obviously you feel right at home, cause you won't go to some other forum and spit your routine elsewhere.


I'm not amazed to find myself arguing here that an actor is not "the best martial artists."

No, thats YOU who can't get past "the best martial artists" because WE keep saying he was an ICON......one of the BIGGEST and one that affected EVERY SINGLE MARTIAL ARTIST around the world.


This place lists tons of martial experts who never faced a real opponent. So its fitting I guess and helps perpetuate the ezine world view: anyone can be a martial artist if they buy the uniform, shoes and sash.

Looks like we're in good company as long as you keep coming to such a lowly place to be.

[Ray Pina]

No, thats YOU who can't get past "the best martial artists" because WE keep saying he was an ICON.

The best thing about this site is that the stupid things you say remain posted until you're smart enough to take them down.


there is NO bigger martial artist than bruce lee. not even Chuck Fukkin Norris.

Those are your stupid words.

Arguing with you about martial arts is easy because I know more and have more experience than you.

I don't have to conjure up the witty remarks you can't wait to hear. I just post the truth. It's just that guys like you don't want to recognize it because it shatters your world view and/or you would have to go fight and compete to have credentials.

[hskwarrior]

Those are your stupid words.

Arguing with you about martial arts is easy because I know more and have more experience than you.

I don't have to conjure up the witty remarks you can't wait to hear. I just post the truth. It's just that guys like you don't want to recognize it because it shatters your world view and/or you would have to go fight and compete to have credentials.

You mad bro? At least i can change my stupid words......you can't change your stupid attitude LOL. are you having some wannabe elitist break down? LMAO.....

You're one of US.....and you keep coming back here. Even when people could care less about your opinions, you keep them coming as if people want you to. EGO MANIAC hhahaha

One doesn't need to be a sport fighter to effectively and practically be effective in self preservation.

OH! LOOK! OTher people feel the same about Bruce Lee being the Biggest Martial Art Icon....guess you stand alone in your self righteous rants about you knowing better.....

http://www.imdb.com/list/gI_4kPZCq-8/

and i QUOTE "1.
Bruce Lee
Actor, Enter the Dragon
Bruce Lee remains the greatest icon of martial arts cinema, and a key figure of modern popular culture. Had it not been for the amazing Bruce Lee and his incredible movies in the early 1970s, it's arguable whether or not the martial arts film genre would have ever penetrated and influenced mainstream western cinema & audiences the way it has over the past four decades...
“ The Undisputed King of Martial Arts Cinema & the Greatest Martial Artist of the 20th century. His name is immortally synonymous with the words Kung Fu. Has been credited and dubbed as the Father of Mixed Martial Arts, he is the sole reason the genre exploded in the 70s to even today. With just 4 Completed Kung Fu films under his belt, his foot print on pop culture is still unmatched by anyone and have been referenced in countless films, television, music, and video games. he accomplished the impossible: He not only gave the Chinese people and nation an identity, but he also made Asian-American kids proud to be Asian. In the end, he inspired more people to practice the martial arts than anyone else in history. He also broke down racial barriers under the banner of using the martial arts as a path to brotherhood and self-expression. If it wasn’t for Lee giving Hong Kong movies and martial arts cinema legitimacy around the world, the martial arts film industry would not have the impact—or the box-office dollars—it has today.

He is founder of Jeet Kune Do. ” - Young_Justice"

[Ray Pina]

The deadliest man who ever lived. The greatest martial warrior of all time:

[Ray Pina]

Grandmaster and future grandmaster.... just don't ask them to move heavy furniture. Or to put their mastership to the test.

[David Jamieson]

Ray, why u trolling?

man...lol

[hskwarrior]

http://www.mixtapefactory.com/useralbums/HATERS/haters.jpg

Ya Need to drink some of this.......

http://fitjohnny.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/haterade.gif?w=300&h=262

[Faruq]

It is derived from the whole verbiage of the filial system of pais (clans/families).

Up until the 80's or so, there was no such thing. But the filial systems remained and then got combined with belt ranks, then on it went down the garden paths until we arrive at the term "grandmaster".

Filial system uses:

Founder - Jo si or si jo
Grandfather/Teacher - si gung
Teacher / Father - si fu
Teacher/Mother (sifu's wife - si mo
Teacher /older brother - si hing
Teacher/ Older sister - si mei
you - whatever your name is. lol

there is also uncles and aunts and such and generally these filial styles didn't use belt rankings.
But then, welcome to america and voila! Culture mix that some like and others consider taint. It can be for sure a bit of both.

:-)

You forgot "si dai", lol. What does that mean?

[hskwarrior]

He also forgot Toh Dai......

[David Jamieson]

You forgot "si dai", lol. What does that mean?

si = teacher
dai= big

Not totally familiar with "si dai"? I've heard of dai sifu or dai sihing dai sifu is when more than one teaches but is the title of the main guy. dai sihing is the longest attending big brother.

there's also "gau lin" or "coach" :)

for the record I didn't "forget" anything. I made mention that there were others.

[hskwarrior]

Si Fu

Cantonese: si fu

Cantonese (Yale): si1 fu6

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 fu4



Si Gung - Grandmaster

Cantonese: si gung

Cantonese (Yale): si1 gung1

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 gong1



Si Tai Gung – Great Grandmaster

Cantonese: si tai gung

Cantonese (Yale): si1 taai3 gung1

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 tai4 gong1



Si Jo – Great Great Grandmaster

Cantonese: si jo

Cantonese (Yale): si1 jou2

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 zu3



Jo Si - Founder

Cantonese: jo si

Cantonese (Yale): jou2 si1

Mandarin (Pinyin): zu3 shi1



Jung Si – Teacher of Tradition

Cantonese: jung si

Cantonese (Yale): jung1 si1

Mandarin (Pinyin): zong1 shi1



Si Heng – Senior Kungfu Brother

Cantonese: si heng

Cantonese (Yale): si1 hing1

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 xiong1



Si Jie - Senior Kungfu Sister

Cantonese: si jie

Cantonese (Yale): si1 je2

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 jie3



Si Dai - Junior Kungfu Brother

Cantonese: si dai

Cantonese (Yale): si1 dai6

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 di4



Si Mui - Junior Kungfu Sister

Cantonese: si mui

Cantonese (Yale): si1 mui6

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 mei4



Si Pak – Senior Kungfu Uncle

Cantonese: si pak

Cantonese (Yale): si1 baak3

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 bo2



Si Ku Ma - Senior Kungfu Aunt

Cantonese: si ku ma

Cantonese (Yale): si1 gu1 ma1

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 gu1 ma1



Si Sook - Junior Kungfu Uncle

Cantonese: si sook

Cantonese (Yale): si1 suk1

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 shu1



Si Ku Jie - Junior Kungfu Aunt

Cantonese: si ku jie

Cantonese (Yale): si1 gu1 je2

Mandarin (Pinyin): shi1 gu jie3



Tou Dai - Student

Cantonese: tou dai

Cantonese (Yale): tou4 dai6

Mandarin (Pinyin): tu2 di4



Tou Shoon – Grandstudent (Male)

Cantonese: tou shoon

Cantonese (Yale): tou4 syun1

Mandarin (Pinyin): tu2 sun1



Tou Shoon Lui – Grandstudent (Female)

Cantonese: tou shoon lui

Cantonese (Yale): tou4 syun1 neui5

Mandarin (Pinyin): tu2 sun1 nu3



Si Jat – Kungfu Nephew

Cantonese: si jat

Cantonese (Yale): si1 jat6

Mandarin (Pinyin): si1 zhi2



Si Jat Lui – Kungfu Niece

Cantonese: si jat lui

Cantonese (Yale): si1 jat6 neui5

Mandarin (Pinyin): si1 zhi2 nu3



Si Mou – Master's Wife

Cantonese: si mou

Cantonese (Yale): si1 mou5

Mandarin (Pinyin): si1 mu3

[Ray Pina]

I beg to differ on that 110%, he was all about the path of the warrior.

These are the kind of statements that I'm talking about. Don't comment from your heart or a place of idol/icon worship.... use your brain when commenting. He's 110% on the path of the warrior in the 1970s and avoids military service, professional fighting and any kind of direct comparison/competition with serious fighters of his day? He make believe fights Chuck Norris?

So when the data doesn't fit then you change the perception? Now he's a great martial artist for never having fought?

Oh God I love this crowd. And the best, the kicker, is that they say it's me that's thinking wrong.

[Ray Pina]

OH! LOOK! OTher people feel the same about Bruce Lee being the Biggest Martial Art Icon....guess you stand alone in your self righteous rants about you knowing better.....

http://www.imdb.com/list/gI_4kPZCq-8/

Nazism was very well received and popular... didn't make it a good idea.

To know that Bruce Lee is an actor and not a warrior is no great feat. The fact that others don't see it that way doesn't make me accept something that is not true.

[hskwarrior]

Oh God I love this crowd. And the best, the kicker, is that they say it's me that's thinking wrong.

No, it is YOU. No doubt. Yet, you keep coming here, over and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover

[hskwarrior]

To know that Bruce Lee is an actor and not a warrior is no great feat. The fact that others don't see it that way doesn't make me accept something that is not true.

So you're saying Bruce Lee never got into one fight? FUK professional, I'm asking you if Bruce Lee had ever been in more than ONE fight? If he had, he was a fighter.

Sports fighting is NOT the end all and BE all for self defense. Professional fighting is a VIOLENT SPORT, just like football. But, its still a SPORT. If the SPORTS model was the be all and end all there wouldn't be anything else out there. but there is!

[Ray Pina]

No, it is YOU. No doubt. Yet, you keep coming here, over and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover

I am coming here and contesting your thinking regarding martial arts.

As I see it, the state of thinking and approach to training here by teachers of martial arts, teachers of combat and warfare is despicable and shameful.

Honore, love and respect Bruce Lee but keep it in its proper context. Musashi, Vasily Zaystev, Gary Powers, the Gracie family, Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell..... all of these people are true warriors. Repeatedly tested and improved under real duress.

I won't comment on this further. My point is made. But perhaps all of TCMA would be better if its practitioners leaned more towards real warriors instead of make-be-believe Opera, WuShu, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, etc.

Perhaps its not odd TCMA is full of fake weapons forms and grown American men donning prayer beads and Buddhist outfits. It's a land of make believe.

[Ray Pina]

So you're saying Bruce Lee never got into one fight? FUK professional, I'm asking you if Bruce Lee had ever been in more than ONE fight? If he had, he was a fighter.

I know this is the moment you've been waiting for.

Yes, we have documented proof that Bruce Lee sparred: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

I'm not questioning Bruce Lee as a martial artist. By that non impressive sparring video alone he has my respect for stepping up.... something you haven't done fat boy.

With that said, some of the best fighters I knew growing up never studied martial arts. And a lot of guys I knew and now know who study martial arts will never fight.

A fighter is someone who steps up. And in that regard I praise Bruce Lee.

Again, what I'm saying, if we want to exemplify someone who has dedicated their life to stepping up as a martial artist, as a warrior.... there are many better examples.

If anything, Bruce Lee is an inspiration story. A story of realizing his movie star dreams.

[hskwarrior]

I am coming here and contesting your thinking regarding martial arts.

Good Luck. However, you're not qualified enough to contest my thinking about martial arts. just saying.


As I see it, the state of thinking and approach to training here by teachers of martial arts, teachers of combat and warfare is despicable and shameful.

Yet, i don't get why you keep coming back? Is it your ego? is this a place where you think you can flex your muscles and people will tremble in your presence? its not gonna happen, i can tell you that for sure.



Honore, love and respect Bruce Lee but keep it in its proper context. Musashi, Vasily Zaystev, Gary Powers, the Gracie family, Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell..... all of these people are true warriors. Repeatedly tested and improved under real duress.

All of these people came AFTER Bruce Lee and were DEFINITELY inspired by him. So i can say since he influenced them, he was much more to them they you assume.


I won't comment on this further. My point is made. But perhaps all of TCMA would be better if its practitioners leaned more towards real warriors instead of make-be-believe Opera, WuShu, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, etc.

Show us what kind of teacher you are. if all you doing is teaching your student how to fight, lets see what your teaching skills are like. Aside from that you know what they say about opinions.


Perhaps its not odd TCMA is full of fake weapons forms and grown American men donning prayer beads and Buddhist outfits. It's a land of make believe.

Fake weapons? who are you referring to? The weapons we practice with can hurt you in practice if you're not paying attention. Daggers, 3 section steel whip, and the staff are not worthless weapons practiced by gung fu people.

[hskwarrior]

By that non impressive sparring video alone he has my respect for stepping up.... something you haven't done fat boy.

I'll take FAT anyday over having to spend one day as you. I can lose weight. You can't loose looney. :D

And you are not man enough to come back from the injury I sustained. So your words will bounce right off my fat as$. LMAO.


With that said, some of the best fighters I knew growing up never studied martial arts. And a lot of guys I knew and now know who study martial arts will never fight.

A fighter is someone who steps up. And in that regard I praise Bruce Lee.

Again, what I'm saying, if we want to exemplify someone who has dedicated their life to stepping up as a martial artist, as a warrior.... there are many better examples.

If anything, Bruce Lee is an inspiration story. A story of realizing his movie star dreams.

You're so full of it. LMAO

[Kevin73]

These are the kind of statements that I'm talking about. Don't comment from your heart or a place of idol/icon worship.... use your brain when commenting. He's 110% on the path of the warrior in the 1970s and avoids military service, professional fighting and any kind of direct comparison/competition with serious fighters of his day? He make believe fights Chuck Norris?

So when the data doesn't fit then you change the perception? Now he's a great martial artist for never having fought?

Oh God I love this crowd. And the best, the kicker, is that they say it's me that's thinking wrong.

BL was unacceptable for the draft. He had one leg shorter than the other and an undescended testicle. The military didn't want him (kind of ironic since most people hold him up for his fitness).

BL had records of boxing while younger. He coached well known fighters of the time (Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis) who both said that he was very good. You had well known martial artists of the time (Ed Parker, Wally Jay, Gene LeBell) said that he was very gifted and talented. Other people who have worked on his movie sets have talked about challenge matches that BL had and fought. Just because he didn't hand pick fighters and videotape them and sell them commercially to make money doesn't mean that he had no skill.

BL was a man who had a lot of faults, but he was also very gifted. I just don't like the complete haters who negate all he did anymore than the nutriders who claim that he was almost perfect or invent stuff about what he did (BL is now the father of MMA?)

[Ray Pina]

However, you're not qualified enough to contest my thinking about martial arts. just saying.

What do you base this on? What have you done in martial arts that I haven't done? How many years have you studied? What competitions have you participated in and how did you do? What are your top 3 achievements?



All of these people came AFTER Bruce Lee and were DEFINITELY inspired by him. So i can say since he influenced them, he was much more to them they you assume.

You're ignorant. Go check your history.



Fake weapons? who are you referring to? The weapons we practice with can hurt you in practice if you're not paying attention. Daggers, 3 section steel whip, and the staff are not worthless weapons practiced by gung fu people.

Anything can be a weapon. Since you are not employing any of those tools in a way to harm or injure another (you're literally playing with yourself or in tandem with another jerk off) they are not weapons. They're toys.

[hskwarrior]

What do you base this on? What have you done in martial arts that I haven't done? How many years have you studied? What competitions have you participated in and how did you do? What are your top 3 achievements?

Nothing. You're the best! My bad. LOL


You're ignorant. Go check your history.

Like I said, you know what they say about opinions!!!!


Anything can be a weapon. Since you are not employing any of those tools in a way to harm or injure another (you're literally playing with yourself or in tandem with another jerk off) they are not weapons. They're toys.

See, now you're showing your own ignorance. LMAO.

[TenTigers]

Bruce Lee was an actor, but that does not take away from his innovations and contributions to Martial Arts.
1-He brought CMA to the Western World, in a matter of speaking. Before BL, very few gwailos have even heard of Gung-Fu.

2-He was a forerunner in Martial Arts conditioning, weight training-sure it's been around for ages, but BL brought it into many MAists' consciousness. In fact, his physique was so developed, Body building magazines have done whole series of articles on him.

3-He was one of the earliest advocates of MMA-stressing the ability of being able to fight at all ranges of combat-kicking, striking, trapping, grappling.

4-He borrowed from boxing, and he was instrumental in Karateka going from standing like statues, to moving.

5-Sure, he taught Coburn, McQueen, etc.
But-he also trained Chuck Norris, Joe Louis, Mike Stone, and others. These guys were the top fighters in their day. If BL was simply an actor, they wouldn't have trained with him.

6-He was an inspiration to great fighters such as Suger Ray Leornard and Manny Paquico (sp?)oh, and that guy Bruce LeRoy on Ultimate Fighter.:D

BTW-he developed the concept for the Kung-Fu series.
I wouldn't say he is solely responsible for bringing TCMA to the western public, but the ripple effect he had is tremendous. All the Kung-Fu schools in every Chinatown would still be teaching only a handful of Asians.
(Ray would have never heard of Hung-Ga, Wing Chun, SPM, Hsing-Yi.
He would still be doing Isshinryu....maybe.)
Seth Rogan would have nothing to talk about...

I'm sure there are many other ways BL contributed to MA and inspired others.
These are just off the top of my head.

[Lucas]

5-Sure, he taught Coburn, McQueen, etc.
But-he also trained Chuck Norris, Joe Louis, Mike Stone, and others. These guys were the top fighters in their day. If BL was simply an actor, they wouldn't have trained with him.

6-He was an inspiration to great fighters such as Suger Ray Leornard and Manny Paquico (sp?)oh, and that guy Bruce LeRoy on Ultimate Fighter.:D



now dont you be bringing anything like that here :mad:

the gall, thinking that people who were fighters and met the guy had enough of an impression to train with him based on actual first hand experience...i prefer to make my assumptions and judgements of people without having met them at all, thank you very much.

[hskwarrior]

.i prefer to make my assumptions and judgements of people without having met them at all, thank you very much.
__________________

rotflmao ;););):d

[Ray Pina]

Like I said, you know what they say about opinions!!!!


Your stating that Musashi, Russia's greatest sniper in WWII and the Gracie family development of BJJ all occurred after Bruce Lee is factually wrong.... if you want to continue keeping that wrong opinion, that's up to you.

[hskwarrior]

Your stating that Musashi, Russia's greatest sniper in WWII and the Gracie family development of BJJ all occurred after Bruce Lee is factually wrong.... if you want to continue keeping that wrong opinion, that's up to you.

Thank you. thats very nice of you. you're a nice man. thank you.


the Gracie family, Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell

So Bruce Lee didn't come before these guys i just posted? And, when bruce lee hit the scene, who in america knew of the Gracie's?

[Ray Pina]

Maybe they wanted to be his friend and be in his movies.

Randy Couture spent plenty of time with Stallone and Jet Li for The Expendables. They trained and developed fight scenes together.... when it comes martial arts, Stallone nor Li are nowhere near Couture's level.

Couture brings real clout. Li brings the Kung Fu fans. Stallone brings big Hollywood budget.

To say Bruce Lee trained Chuck Norris, to imply Norris was his student, is not accurate.

Look at his real students, Kareem, etc.... which one of those have gone on to fight professionally?

Again, everyone wants to dodge the professional fighting element.... we're talking about fighting. Like baseball, football, etc..... professional is the high level. Followed by minor leagues club ball, etc

Sparring in a tournament with gear and self stoppage is akin to 1-on-1 stickball. It shows you know how to swing the bat and throw the ball.

[hskwarrior]

Randy Couture spent plenty of time with Stallone and Jet Li for The Expendables. They trained and developed fight scenes together.... when it comes martial arts, Stallone nor Li are nowhere near Couture's level.

how much time did he spend with bruce lee? Since when was Stallone EVER thought of as any kind of martial artist?


Look at his real students, Kareem, etc.... which one of those have gone on to fight professionally?


Did they want to? :confused:


Again, everyone wants to dodge the professional fighting element.... we're talking about fighting. Like baseball, football, etc..... professional is the high level. Followed by minor leagues club ball, etc

Not everyone wants to become Professional fighters. nothin wrong with that. not everyone is a fighter either. and not everything has to be judged on the SPORT MODEL. nope.


Sparring in a tournament with gear and self stoppage is akin to 1-on-1 stickball. It shows you know how to swing the bat and throw the ball.

Not everyone wants to be professional ball players nor could they if they wanted to. But if they wanted to play stick ball in the streets or a park, they would know how to. If they were the elite ones of the group, then they may move to more professional levels. Some people go to the Batting cages, but are not interested in joining a team or playing for one. they just want to take the little stick and crack the ball. should they NOT because they aren't doing it on a professional level? NO, they can do what they choose to.

[Lucas]

i dont think bruce lee, at his hight, would have done well in his weight class by the current ufc standards. now if he were to take what he had been doing and then had a solid fight camp to prepare him, i think he could have done just as well as any other guy.

bruce lee was not a 'fighter' he was an actor, sure he could fight, anyone can. how well is the true mystery. ive been in a good sized handful of fights in my life and i do not consider myself a fighter. i train judo and we spar every day, yet still i dont consider myself a fighter, because i do not actively go out and fight full tilt against someone actually trying to kill/hurt me badly.

[hskwarrior]

sure he could fight, anyone can.

nope, not everyone could fight. Some people are just too passive. but sometimes you have no choice to be open up to that fighter inside. Even a shy timid person under fear for their life can be dangerous tho, sure.

[bawang]

i think there was a lot of pain in bruce lees life. i respect his struggle.

[Lucas]

nope, not everyone could fight. Some people are just too passive. but sometimes you have no choice to be open up to that fighter inside. Even a shy timid person under fear for their life can be dangerous tho, sure.

you got me there lol i forget sometimes about all the pu$$Y cats in this tigers world :p

[hskwarrior]

i think there was a lot of pain in bruce lees life. i respect his struggle. he only knew sh1tty cantonese kung fu so it was logical for him to denounce and abandon the "classical mess".

that spread to his son too......what a classical mess

[Lucas]

i think there was a lot of pain in bruce lees life. i respect his struggle.

plus he only knew crappy cantonese kungfu so it makes sense for him to denounce the 'classical mess' :p :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[hskwarrior]

you got me there lol i forget sometimes about all the pu$$Y cats in this tigers world

The poosey cats are everywhere haha

[TenTigers]

"Sparring in a tournament with gear and self stoppage is akin to 1-on-1 stickball. It shows you know how to swing the bat and throw the ball."

Ray, this is before your time, so you wouldn't be expected to know, although you can read up on it if you wished.
The "Point-fighting" tournaments in those days were often bloodbaths. They were bare-knuckle, full contact, (of course, nobody ever admitted to this) often ending in people being hospitalized. It wasn't the tag games you see today. (btw-there are still plenty of injuries and KO's in today's semi-contact tournaments)
Joe Louis was the Heavyweight Full-Contact Champion.

[hskwarrior]

The "Point-fighting" tournaments in those days were often bloodbaths. They were bare-knuckle, full contact, (of course, nobody ever admitted to this) often ending in people being hospitalized. It wasn't the tag games you see today. (btw-there are still plenty of injuries and KO's in today's semi-contact tournaments)
Joe Louis was the Heavyweight Full-Contact Champion.

my father and older brother were black belts in Karate. I remember going to tournaments and my father breaking peoples noses and getting disqualified. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

I liked BL, he was cool, modern MMA owes a great deal to his views on cross-training.
Most MA I speak to, fighters all of them, hold BL in good esteem.
Many got into MA because of BL.
As for being a grand master, if JKD produced any masters ( it did) then BL would be a GM.
Enough said.

[TenTigers]

I liked BL, he was cool, modern MMA owes a great deal to his views on cross-training.
Most MA I speak to, fighters all of them, hold BL in good esteem.
Many got into MA because of BL.
As for being a grand master, if JKD produced any masters ( it did) then BL would be a GM.
Enough said.
in true Bruce Lee fashion, Sanjuro has pointed his finger at the truth and has shown us all that heavenly glory.

[Fa Xing]

These are the kind of statements that I'm talking about. Don't comment from your heart or a place of idol/icon worship.... use your brain when commenting. He's 110% on the path of the warrior in the 1970s and avoids military service, professional fighting and any kind of direct comparison/competition with serious fighters of his day? He make believe fights Chuck Norris?

So when the data doesn't fit then you change the perception? Now he's a great martial artist for never having fought?

Oh God I love this crowd. And the best, the kicker, is that they say it's me that's thinking wrong.

You are very clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but we don't disagree on everything. You are just extremely pretentious, and BTW he trained Chuck Norris back in the day as well as other well known Karate champions. Please do your homework before you spout your bull****, okay pumpkin!?!

[SPJ]

I like BL

because

1. he got a big smile. it is very infectious or charismatic.

2. he looked like my cousin.

3. he was very practical. since his body built was not for great strength/power. so he aimed for fastness or speed. his moves are like that of a long spear or fencing. being fast was his game play.

4. he tried all the training methods available at the time. as pointed out that his muscles and 6 pack were evident enough.

5. he was toying with electrodes to speed up trainging instead of push ups

-- that was not good.

me and my brothers like him for what he was not because of his movies or what he said on the TV interviews.

:cool: