The Key to Internal is...

[Eric Olson]

...standing meditation. This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.

That's it. Oh, sure, there are some more specific details but that's the core of it right there.

EO

[bawang]

the key to internal is to relax the sphincter. and just let it flow. let it flow.

[Brule]

Wait! I thought there was no internal/external. Make up your minds already.

[hskwarrior]

the key to having great internal is taking a better dump!!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

It's like the bud light commercials..


Here we go!

[Brule]

and 5....4....3....2...1 before a scantily clad pic shows up courtesy of Sanjuro?

[Dragonzbane76]

yeah that's a silver bullet i would ride. :p

[Blacktiger]

...standing meditation. This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.

That's it. Oh, sure, there are some more specific details but that's the core of it right there.

EO

The key to internal is to stop worrying about it...

[extrajoseph]

It is not worth worrying, but it is worth contemplating...

IMHO, the key to Internal is to do it internally more so than externally, but one does not exclude the other, so when moving externally think stillness internally, the more turbulent the external movements the calmer is the internal mind, the harder you hit the softer are the punches, what others can see externally is driven by what they cannot see in you internally and so forth.

Zhan Zhuang is just the beginning, and all styles do them one way or another, in CLF we hold the horse stance for the duration it takes for an incense stick to burn completely.

BTW, it is not standing meditation, it is standing awareness, you concentrate actively and continuously on every part of your body while stand still and allow the internal pain to make you become aware of your external deficiency and correct them accordingly; only when there is external efficiency (being comfortable, free from pain and natural), can there be the seeds of internal accomplishment.

As for the lovely ladies, I prefer them without the paint but I am willing to settle for what is given. :)

XJ

[Hardwork108]

...standing meditation. This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.

That's it. Oh, sure, there are some more specific details but that's the core of it right there.

EO

Yes, there is more to it, but you have hit the nail with Zhan Zhuang (standing) training, which can then be accompanied with specific, not so well known two men training.

Thanks for posting.:)

[Hardwork108]

Wait! I thought there was no internal/external. Make up your minds already.

That is the school of thought presented by people who have not practiced genuine TCMAs, but Eric Olson, more or less hit the nail on the head with his reference to standing training, which despite popular belief among the "I have done kung fu for 'decades' [but I am still clueless]" MMA fraternity, is not about finding "relaxation". ;)

[Brule]

That is the school of thought presented by people who have not practiced genuine TCMAs, but Eric Olson, more or less hit the nail on the head with his reference to standing training, which despite popular belief among the "I have done kung fu for 'decades' [but I am still clueless]" MMA fraternity, is not about finding "relaxation". ;)

What do you consider genuine TCMA? And don't tell me wing chun:mad:

[SPJ]

...standing meditation. This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.

That's it. Oh, sure, there are some more specific details but that's the core of it right there.

EO

there are both static and dynamic stretching

be it yoga or standing in postures.

due to gravity, that is.

you may do your crunch, reverse crunch, v-crunch, and hold in start or end posture

or you may move your crunches slowly

or you may move fast.

so standing or holding alone is part of the picture and not whole.

moving in postures is called dong zhuang

standing in postures is called zhan zhuang

etc etc

[Scott R. Brown]

I agree, the key to defending yourself while standing up is to practice while you are standing up. If you practice self-defense lying down then you will only be able to defend yourself while lying down.

Standing up is VERY important when practicing the martial arts!

[Dragonzbane76]

I agree, the key to defending yourself while standing up is to practice while you are standing up. If you practice self-defense lying down then you will only be able to defend yourself while lying down.

Standing up is VERY important when practicing the martial arts!
__________________

all ranges of fighting are important to practice. equal emphasis should be placed on all IMO.

[Hardwork108]

What do you consider genuine TCMA? And don't tell me wing chun:mad:

All TCMAs have genuine manifestations and that includes Wing Chun!

IMHO, one is wrong to judge the effectiveness and authenticity of a given style of Kung fu by using the Mcdojo manifestations of it as a benchmark.

[SPJ]

Il like the body paint especially the dew or waterdrops.

They look so real. Wonder how long and how the painter did it.

:)

[Ozzy Dave]

All TCMAs have genuine manifestations and that includes Wing Chun!

IMHO, one is wrong to judge the effectiveness and authenticity of a given style of Kung fu by using the Mcdojo manifestations of it as a benchmark.

Genuine equals effective in a combative situation, yes?

Standing to me is primarily about proprioception, "creating a root" but what many fail to understand is that it must be tested in other forms of training and finally in non-compliant training with a partner.

So even in terms of TCMA its more of an adjunct rather than a base.

Non-compliant training is what MMA does well because it is after all a competitive pursuit.

The internal / external thing is primarily just classification and not about training.

Dave

[bawang]

yes, in the beginning of internal training there is standing post. at advanced stages you move on to squats.

[YouKnowWho]

Standing up is VERY important when practicing the martial arts!
If you lay down on the ground, nobody can knock you down or throw you down. Even better, if you kill yourself, nobody can kill you again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWHcuXCLRo

[Scott R. Brown]

yes, in the beginning of internal training there is standing post. at advanced stages you move on to squats.

Let's face it, standing IS advanced for some people!



If you lay down on the ground, nobody can knock you down or throw you down. Even better, if you kill yourself, nobody can kill you again.

An excellent strategy that I recommend for most people! Especially drivers in front of me going the speed limit or slower in the fast lane, and anyone who doesn't agree with me 100% on all things and David Jamieson, but NOT David Ross, or bawang his #1 acolyte because that would be like God and his advertising agency killing themselves! The first couldn't happen and the second God wouldn't allow to happen!

[Blacktiger]

Let's face it, standing IS advanced for some people!


Correct!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

breathing in air is advanced for some people.

[Hardwork108]

Genuine equals effective in a combative situation, yes?

Of course genuine TCMA equals effective in a combative situation, because that is what TCMAs were designed, trained and used for.

So, when some characters start calling important TCMA methodologies and concepts fantasy, then I know that they have never trained genuine TCMAs.


Standing to me is primarily about proprioception, "creating a root"
I have been taught that Zhan Zhuang training goes far beyond creating roots. Roots are the first "benefit" of the training, but like so many things related to the relatively profound TCMAs, many practitioners do not go beyond the first step, IMHO.


but what many fail to understand is that it must be tested in other forms of training and finally in non-compliant training with a partner.

So even in terms of TCMA its more of an adjunct rather than a base.
Not if there is more to it than mere roots training. ;)


Non-compliant training is what MMA does well because it is after all a competitive pursuit.
True, but IMHO, all MAs should sooner or later pursue non-compliant training, otherwise they are just fooling themselves.


The internal / external thing is primarily just classification and not about training.
Of course it is about classification for different overall approaches, but don't different approaches require different training methodologies? :)

[RickMatz]

For me, the power of internal martial arts training is in the cultivation of a calm, clear mind.

I haven't been in a fight for over 30 years, but I find usefulness in having a calm mind every day.

Take the other day for example ... (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2011/09/why-i-train-in-martial-arts.html)

Best Regards,

Rick

[Robinhood]

There is a very clear difference between internal application and external application, if you don't think there is, then you are external person only thinking you have some internal.

If you have not done standing for years at a minimum, there is no way you no what internal is or could even begin to apply it.

So without the standing training, you are just external guys thinking there is no internal, or maybe hopping there is no internal or thinking your external training will develop internal too, it will not.

So saying what you think it is, just says you don`t know, because if you had it you would clearly know the difference!.

[Ozzy Dave]

Of course genuine TCMA equals effective in a combative situation, because that is what TCMAs were designed, trained and used for.

So how do you measure that?


So, when some characters start calling important TCMA methodologies and concepts fantasy, then I know that they have never trained genuine TCMAs.

Not fantasy, but not necessarily time effective for the returns gained if you look at the overall attribute development required of a combative discipline.


I have been taught that Zhan Zhuang training goes far beyond creating roots. Roots are the first "benefit" of the training, but like so many things related to the relatively profound TCMAs, many practitioners do not go beyond the first step, IMHO.

I disagree but hey it’s only my opinion and experience, “goes far beyond” what does that entail for you?



Of course it is about classification for different overall approaches, but don't different approaches require different training methodologies? :)

Again, I disagree. The training process is the same.

The base attributes of all combative disciplines can be reduced to courage, strength, speed and changeability. The process of developing those attributes can be different dependent on the strategies and tactics of the individual style and the experience of the practitioner.

My point is that standing practise is ubiquitous to TCMA. I’ve trained in both so called internal and external styles and they all do standing practise but its like all training methods - subject to the laws of diminishing returns beyond a maintenance component after the objectives of the training have been internalised. :D

Dave

[Scott R. Brown]

There is a very clear difference between internal application and external application, if you don't think there is, then you are external person only thinking you have some internal.

If you have not done standing for years at a minimum, there is no way you no what internal is or could even begin to apply it.

So without the standing training, you are just external guys thinking there is no internal, or maybe hopping there is no internal or thinking your external training will develop internal too, it will not.

So saying what you think it is, just says you don`t know, because if you had it you would clearly know the difference!.

Or maybe internal people are just external practitioners who believe the tripe they have been told that internal is something special and do not understand that all actions are external from the start, otherwise they would NOT be ACTIONS!!!!!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the key to INTERNALLY lifting 300lbs of deadweight ( barbell for example) off the floor?

[Dragonzbane76]

Youknowwho and I are still waiting for someone to show us the "internal" way to perform a roundhouse.nu

[Scott R. Brown]

What is the key to INTERNALLY lifting 300lbs of deadweight ( barbell for example) off the floor?


Youknowwho and I are still waiting for someone to show us the "internal" way to perform a roundhouse.nu

You guys are just guys who are internally external instead of externally internal or internally internal and think you are externally external, so you cannot fully understand the internally internal mindset.

Any one can do either one of your feats.....in their own mind! Which is the ONLY REAL form of internal. Any ACTION one performs is ALWAYS external, anything done within one's mind is ALWAYS internal.

Therefore you can do anything internally as long as it stays internal, as in, "within the mind", the real difficulty occurs when one tries to bring their PRETEND world into the REAL world!:eek:;)

[Robinhood]

Or maybe internal people are just external practitioners who believe the tripe they have been told that internal is something special and do not understand that all actions are external from the start, otherwise they would NOT be ACTIONS!!!!!:eek:

No, It has nothing to do with belief, it is a very different cause and effect.

If you were able to meet someone who has internal application ability, they should be able to demonstrate the difference on you so you will be able to feel the cause and effect difference.

Someone watching will not be able to see it,he will only see that the one guy was moved with little effort or movement, so people watching will always think it is fake.

So Scott your quest will be to find someone that is willing to let you experience the difference. It won`t be an easy task, for many reasons. Not because no can do it, but more of why should they show you !.

[Scott R. Brown]

No, It has nothing to do with belief, it is a very different cause and effect.

If you were able to meet someone who has internal application ability, they should be able to demonstrate the difference on you so you will be able to feel the cause and effect difference.

Someone watching will not be able to see it,he will only see that the one guy was moved with little effort or movement, so people watching will always think it is fake.

So Scott your quest will be to find someone that is willing to let you experience the difference. It won`t be an easy task, for many reasons. Not because no can do it, but more of why should they show you !.

Well, gee wiz, since I already am a rather proficient practioner of internal applications, I guess I don't need to find someone, which of course is why I feel free making smart a$$ comments about a topic I already KNOW a great deal about. Thanks for the thought though!:);)

[Robinhood]

Well, gee wiz, since I already am a rather proficient practioner of internal applications, I guess I don't need to find someone, which of course is why I feel free making smart a$$ comments about a topic I already KNOW a great deal about. Thanks for the thought though!:);)

I could be wrong, but you don`t sound like you know the difference from the things you say!, tell me something that only an internal guy would know, not something you read in a book.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is the key to INTERNALLY lifting 300lbs of deadweight ( barbell for example) off the floor?

An answer would be nice....

Or how does one do a hip throw internally?

[Lucas]

by clenching anus

[Scott R. Brown]

I could be wrong, but you don`t sound like you know the difference from the things you say!, tell me something that only an internal guy would know, not something you read in a book.

I understand it does not sound like I understand internal to someone who doesn't really understand it themselves. There is a great deal of wrong information out there about it.

I cannot tell you something only an internal guy would know that is not found it books for a couple of reasons:

One, I don't know what you know or do not know!

Two, you are starting from a false premise. When one starts from a false premise the conclusion they arrive at is false as well!

Since you believe that what you do is internal, EVERYTHING you do is re-interpreted according to your accepted, and false, premise This colors your understanding of the results of your actions causing you to misinterpret them. Since I understand, as sanjuro does, that it is all actually external, I understand it according to how it truly is.

Actions performed by an "Internalist" are still actions, which means they are external. The theories explaining the internal generation of power were developed by people who did not have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics, momentum and human psychology, all of which combine to make external actions "appear" magical or "internal" to the inexperienced.

I can easily demonstrate this fact to anyone in person, but experience has taught me that those who drink the Kool-Ade will not believe anything I say because they don't want to understand their actions in terms of external principles. It involves a change in a world view that takes the magic out of life. It is much more fun to believe in faeries and unicorns, than bio-mechanics and momentum.

But just as an experiment you can try yourself, if anything one does can truly be called internal with qi being the powering force (from the traditional view), try to perform any movement successfully against a resisting opponent who is NOT a student, but experienced in a good, strong bio-mechanically based art like Judo or some form of Ju-jitsu, on one foot. You cannot do it!

It cannot be done, because it is biomechanics that is the powering force, the hips mostly and one must have both feet firmly on the ground in order to generate the proper force necessary. One foot is an unstable base, the narrower the base the more unstable, the wider the base the more stable. This is why you can easily push over a pencil standing on its eraser, but not a book laying on its front of back covers.

[YouKnowWho]

tell me something that only an internal guy would know, not something you read in a book.
- from heel to head.
- from back to front,
- tuck tail bone,
- keep head vertical,
- Sung,
- yield,
- follow,
- stick,
- borrow counter force from the ground,
- sink Qi down,
- Dantien rotation,
- head lead body,
- press on toes and raise head,
- silk reeling,
- ...

[Robinhood]

I understand it does not sound like I understand internal to someone who doesn't really understand it themselves. There is a great deal of wrong information out there about it.

I cannot tell you something only an internal guy would know that is not found it books for a couple of reasons:

One, I don't know what you know or do not know!

Two, you are starting from a false premise. When one starts from a false premise the conclusion they arrive at is false as well!

Since you believe that what you do is internal, EVERYTHING you do is re-interpreted according to your accepted, and false, premise This colors your understanding of the results of your actions causing you to misinterpret them. Since I understand, as sanjuro does, that it is all actually external, I understand it according to how it truly is.

Actions performed by an "Internalist" are still actions, which means they are external. The theories explaining the internal generation of power were developed by people who did not have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics, momentum and human psychology, all of which combine to make external actions "appear" magical or "internal" to the inexperienced.

I can easily demonstrate this fact to anyone in person, but experience has taught me that those who drink the Kool-Ade will not believe anything I say because they don't want to understand their actions in terms of external principles. It involves a change in a world view that takes the magic out of life. It is much more fun to believe in faeries and unicorns, than bio-mechanics and momentum.

But just as an experiment you can try yourself, if anything one does can truly be called internal with qi being the powering force (from the traditional view), try to perform any movement successfully against a resisting opponent who is NOT a student, but experienced in a good, strong bio-mechanically based art like Judo or some form of Ju-jitsu, on one foot. You cannot do it!

It cannot be done, because it is biomechanics that is the powering force, the hips mostly and one must have both feet firmly on the ground in order to generate the proper force necessary. One foot is an unstable base, the narrower the base the more unstable, the wider the base the more stable. This is why you can easily push over a pencil standing on its eraser, but not a book laying on its front of back covers.

Nice try, but you still sound like you don`t know the difference, so you are probably still doing external thinking nothing else excist.

It is not biomechanics, it does not apply to inanimate objects. It does not matter if the other person believes, he just needs to be alive and awake.

Also proper force is not required either, so given you have so many components wrong just tells me you are still trying to apply external force which is not internal energy.

Sure if I was applying external force I would then need all those things.

So what you are doing to me would be called external.

[Robinhood]

- from heel to head.
- from back to front,
- tuck tail bone,
- keep head vertical,
- Sung,
- yield,
- follow,
- stick,
- borrow counter force from the ground,
- sink Qi down,
- Dantien rotation,
- head lead body,
- press on toes and raise head,
- silk reeling,
- ...

These are a good list of conditions for proper practice, but what really makes everything work?

[Scott R. Brown]

Nice try, but you still sound like you don`t know the difference, so you are probably still doing external thinking nothing else excist.

It is not biomechanics, it does not apply to inanimate objects. It does not matter if the other person believes, he just needs to be alive and awake.

Also proper force is not required either, so given you have so many components wrong just tells me you are still trying to apply external force which is not internal energy.

Sure if I was applying external force I would then need all those things.

So what you are doing to me would be called external.

Drink your Kool-Ade and enjoy your dreams. Anyone with a good amount of experience and an understanding of bio-mechanics can easily negate any of your fantasy abilities because reality overcomes fantasy every time.

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is another thing to try to demonstrate the fantasy of internal:

If internal power is REAL, use it against a 280# Sumo Wrestler or a Pro NFL Lineman. Size should not matter if one is using REAL internal power! I prefer to see your proof demonstrated against the Sumo Wrestler since he has more experience using Bio-Mechanics in a martial atmosphere.

Demos for internal power are always used against the inexperience, and students, but if it can work in real life it can work against an experienced Sumo Wrestler.

Good Luck!:p

[Robinhood]

Here is another thing to try to demonstrate the fantasy of internal:

If internal power is REAL, use it against a 280# Sumo Wrestler or a Pro NFL Lineman. Size should not matter if one is using REAL internal power! I prefer to see your proof demonstrated against the Sumo Wrestler since he has more experience using Bio-Mechanics in a martial atmosphere.

Demos for internal power are always used against the inexperience, and students, but if it can work in real life it can work against an experienced Sumo Wrestler.

Good Luck!:p

I said nothing about having power, that is your version. I would use the word energy.

l don`t think l have extra power, that is bio mechanical, I have no extra power, but I would look at it more as being a more efficient way of using and applying the parts in a way that is more beneficial to the encounter.

If you encounter me you would think I have a lot of power but I am not using much energy, the less I use the stronger I will feel.

l would say a Summo guy is using a good portion of internal energy.
'
Application to different situations depends on the dynamics of the exchange.

[Scott R. Brown]

I said nothing about having power, that is your version. I would use the word energy.

l don`t think l have extra power, that is bio mechanical, I have no extra power, but I would look at it more as being a more efficient way of using and applying the parts in a way that is more beneficial to the encounter.

If you encounter me you would think I have a lot of power but I am not using much energy, the less I use the stronger I will feel.

l would say a Summo guy is using a good portion of internal energy.
'
Application to different situations depends on the dynamics of the exchange.

It is immaterial what word you choose to use to describe or define your skills/abilities. Energy, power, doesn't matter. The fact you consider your skills a more efficient use of energy demonstrates my point. Your comment, "I would look at is more as being a more efficient way of using and applying the parts in a way that is more beneficial to the encounter." is nothing more than an efficient use of biomechanics and momentum.

The reason you "feel" like you are using less energy when executing a skill is because you are able to use momentum and biomechanical leverage efficiently, which requires less physical power/ force/muscle. Even so called, "Externalists" understand this principle and use it. Only, so called, "Internalist" separate this unified concept into two meaningless categories.

[Robinhood]

It is immaterial what word you choose to use to describe or define your skills/abilities. Energy, power, doesn't matter. The fact you consider your skills a more efficient use of energy demonstrates my point. Your comment, "I would look at is more as being a more efficient way of using and applying the parts in a way that is more beneficial to the encounter." is nothing more than an efficient use of biomechanics and momentum.

The reason you "feel" like you are using less energy when executing a skill is because you are able to use momentum and biomechanical leverage efficiently, which requires less physical power/ force/muscle. Even so called, "Externalists" understand this principle and use it. Only, so called, "Internalist" separate this unified concept into two meaningless categories.
You can say whatever you want, but I am sure that I am not using my bio mechanics the way you think I am. There is a lot more to it than momentum and bio mechanics, but I can not discuss this if you do not have it. It is like a language you don't know.

If Chi does not excist, why do Chinese have acupuncture?

Chi is like gravity, can you see gravity, is it bio mechanical?, just because you cannot use Chi does not mean other people can't.

Doing your external exercises will not develop your Chi, and your bio mechanical momentum is not useing Chi.

So if you want to think you are doing internal too, without doing the training, you might be the one drinking the kool-aid.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It has been proven and shown OVER AND OVER that human ALL work the same in regards to bio-mechanics.
Correct bio-mechanics done to accomplish ANY task have the following:
Correct use of muscle tension and relaxtion.
Correct alignment

How does one run the 100 meters internally?

[Vajramusti]

Here is another thing to try to demonstrate the fantasy of internal:

If internal power is REAL, use it against a 280# Sumo Wrestler or a Pro NFL Lineman. Size should not matter if one is using REAL internal power! I prefer to see your proof demonstrated against the Sumo Wrestler since he has more experience using Bio-Mechanics in a martial atmosphere.

Demos for internal power are always used against the inexperience, and students, but if it can work in real life it can work against an experienced Sumo Wrestler.

Good Luck!:p
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNlu_wA-VWA

FWIW

joy chaudhuri

[Fa Xing]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNlu_wA-VWA

FWIW

joy chaudhuri

Perhaps I missed something since I don't understand Chinese, but it looked to me that the "Sumo wrestler" was playing the "Taiji Master's" game there which it would have been easier for the "Taiji master."

[Vajramusti]

Perhaps I missed something since I don't understand Chinese, but it looked to me that the "Sumo wrestler" was playing the "Taiji Master's" game there which it would have been easier for the "Taiji master."
--------------------------------------------
Most videos are suggestive- you can draw your own conclusions- ok with me.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was a demo and a good one, but if you look at Akebonos posture and legs you can see that he isn''t trying to push, he is just leaning on him more than anything.
Still well done by the Taiji player.

[Fa Xing]

--------------------------------------------
Most videos are suggestive- you can draw your own conclusions- ok with me.

joy chaudhuri

The problem with that is thought is that I have experience with Taiji and push hands. You can make a bigger opponent look less likely do anything by just simply doing fixed form push hands, and in fact my teacher used to say that it was just a way for master's to make students look bad ;).

In any case, I was expecting the sumo wrestler to go for the Taiji guy's body and not a single limb. There was no "internal" there, just body mechanics, amongst other things.

[Robinhood]

It has been proven and shown OVER AND OVER that human ALL work the same in regards to bio-mechanics.
Correct bio-mechanics done to accomplish ANY task have the following:
Correct use of muscle tension and relaxtion.
Correct alignment

How does one run the 100 meters internally?

Internal can be applied to running, did you ever see the RemoWilliams movie where he was running on the beach and the master was saying "float float". Same thing.

Developing internal for MA is not about conditioning muscle memory. I have never meet anyone that did conditioning exercises that developed any internal MA application.

To develope Internal is the opposite training of external exercising for MA application, Internal is not about muscle memory or mechanical strength. Those types of training are good for events that don't need to adjust or interact with someone else, like running, swimming etc., or endurance events.

I have meet very few that can apply internal the way it is described in the classics, so don't worry that it is easy to get or find, you will probably never meet someone that has developed it to the point to use it against you.

So I would say internal is more of a development challenge for your self development, any idiot can punch or kick a bag. But there is no limit to internal development, unlike external which has peak and then down hill slope.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Internal can be applied to running, did you ever see the RemoWilliams movie where he was running on the beach and the master was saying "float float". Same thing.

Developing internal for MA is not about conditioning muscle memory. I have never meet anyone that did conditioning exercises that developed any internal MA application.

To develope Internal is the opposite training of external exercising for MA application, Internal is not about muscle memory or mechanical strength. Those types of training are good for events that don't need to adjust or interact with someone else, like running, swimming etc., or endurance events.

I have meet very few that can apply internal the way it is described in the classics, so don't worry that it is easy to get or find, you will probably never meet someone that has developed it to the point to use it against you.

So I would say internal is more of a development challenge for your self development, any idiot can punch or kick a bag. But there is no limit to internal development, unlike external which has peak and then down hill slope.

Well, obviously you are not serious about this discussion.
Remo Williams indeed.
I suggest you do some reading on even basic bio-mechanics.

[ShaolinDan]

The mind is the body and the body is the mind. But if you want to talk about them, you have to draw distinctions.
I used to be a long distance runner. There is a mental component to it for sure. same for lifting weights. Same for punching someone in the face. Whatever you want to call this component, it's still there, and it can be trained.

[donjitsu2]

As some people here are already aware I am a practitioner of Xingyiquan, Lin Kong Jing (an offshoot of Yiquan), and Muay Thai.

Here are two videos of me doing some heavybag work while utilizing the "internal" principles I've been taught by my Xingyiquan/Lin Kong Jing instructor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izACeXRaia4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpAaiXdsQHA&feature=related


That's what REAL internal looks like.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[wenshu]

Internal can be applied to running, did you ever see the RemoWilliams movie where he was running on the beach and the master was saying "float float". Same thing.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg717/scaled.php?server=717&filename=conwonderwheelinfilm.jpg&res=medium

[wenshu]

I have meet very few that can apply internal the way it is described in the classics,

And what classics are those?

[Fa Xing]

Internal can be applied to running, did you ever see the RemoWilliams movie where he was running on the beach and the master was saying "float float". Same thing.

I just realized what movie you're referring to, there are some real characters on this forum!:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

As some people here are already aware I am a practitioner of Xingyiquan, Lin Kong Jing (an offshoot of Yiquan), and Muay Thai.

Here are two videos of me doing some heavybag work while utilizing the "internal" principles I've been taught by my Xingyiquan/Lin Kong Jing instructor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izACeXRaia4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpAaiXdsQHA&feature=related


That's what REAL internal looks like.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

Nice vids, bro.;) Good to see someone posting their training. On the first vid, I may be mistaken but we're you switching from southpaw to orthodox stance, and if so, is that something you have personally trained or something you picked up in the CMA styles you have trained. Also, on your hook punches I notice your loading up for more power, I say that because I often do the same thing. Good, strong, bag work!!

[donjitsu2]

Nice vids, bro.;) Good to see someone posting their training. On the first vid, I may be mistaken but we're you switching from southpaw to orthodox stance, and if so, is that something you have personally trained or something you picked up in the CMA styles you have trained. Also, on your hook punches I notice your loading up for more power, I say that because I often do the same thing. Good, strong, bag work!!

Thanks man :)

Yeah, I tend to switch between the two styles and it is due to my Xingyi background.

And you're right, I do need to work on my hooks. I do more of a whipping style of hook - which has its uses but shouldn't be the only hook I can do with power.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Robinhood]

And what classics are those?

Yes, that would be the Tai-Chi Classics.

[Robinhood]

And what classics are those?

Tai-Chi Classics

[Robinhood]

Well, obviously you are not serious about this discussion.
Remo Williams indeed.
I suggest you do some reading on even basic bio-mechanics.

We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.

Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.

If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hmmm....where to start, where to start........

Robinhood:

I would say you should not presume what I have or do not have. You come across as a bit narrow-minded and naive. Has it not occurred to you that perhaps you are still a novice and do not have a full comprehension of the topic? That is how it looks from my perspective. I have been where you are, although not quite as naive. I out grew it because I chose to see things as they truly are and not accept the Kool-ade I was given.

I do agree it is not possible to talk to someone about some phenomena that is beyond their ability to understand. You make that very apparent with your comments. I could demonstrate to you the truth of what I say in person, but it is not something I can demonstrate in words. I can take any skill you demonstrate to me and explain and show you firsthand how it is bio-mechanics, as well as how to overcome it. But words alone will have no meaning to you absent direct experience. In that I agree with you.

To Joy:

Thank you for posting a clear example of a tai chi player using bio-mechanics to unseat a sumo wrestler. That video very clearly demonstrated by point of using pyschology, momentum and bio-mechanics and how effective it can be against a sumo wrestler.

However, these kinds demonstrations are not very good examples of tai chi's combat effectiveness, nor of internal skill as traditionally defined because they are very much like a magician's trick. When Akebono must stand and move according the rules set by the tai chi player, he is setup from the beginning. It would be the same as if Akebono had the tai chi player dress as a sumo wrestler and enter the ring according to Sumo rules.

At any rate, once one knows the setup, it may easily be overcome by simply changing the rules of the encounter, a simple strategy long understood by top generals and conquerors the world over for millenia and used to defeat many a narrowly skilled or minded opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.

Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.

If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.

http://community.us.playstation.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/2-31002619-6299/godzilla-facepalm-godzilla-facepalm-face-palm-epic-fail-demotivational-poster-1245384435.jpg

[Robinhood]

Hmmm....where to start, where to start........

Robinhood:

I would say you should not presume what I have or do not have. You come across as a bit narrow-minded and naive. Has it not occurred to you that perhaps you are still a novice and do not have a full comprehension of the topic? That is how it looks from my perspective. I have been where you are, although not quite as naive. I out grew it because I chose to see things as they truly are and not accept the Kool-ade I was given.

I do agree it is not possible to talk to someone about some phenomena that is beyond their ability to understand. You make that very apparent with your comments. I could demonstrate to you the truth of what I say in person, but it is not something I can demonstrate in words. I can take any skill you demonstrate to me and explain and show you firsthand how it is bio-mechanics, as well as how to overcome it. But words alone will have no meaning to you absent direct experience. In that I agree with you.

To Joy:

Thank you for posting a clear example of a tai chi player using bio-mechanics to unseat a sumo wrestler. That video very clearly demonstrated by point of using pyschology, momentum and bio-mechanics and how effective it can be against a sumo wrestler.

However, these kinds demonstrations are not very good examples of tai chi's combat effectiveness, nor of internal skill as traditionally defined because they are very much like a magician's trick. When Akebono must stand and move according the rules set by the tai chi player, he is setup from the beginning. It would be the same as if Akebono had the tai chi player dress as a sumo wrestler and enter the ring according to Sumo rules.

At any rate, once one knows the setup, it may easily be overcome by simply changing the rules of the encounter, a simple strategy long understood by top generals and conquerors the world over for millenia and used to defeat many a narrowly skilled or minded opponent.

Well what can I say, but the same thing right back at you.

If you think you know my level, then you should be able to talk about it, but you seem to not have first hand experience as to what I am talking about.
If you have been at my level you would be able to know what I referring to and describe in bio mechanical terms, or at least internal talk,
, or take things from Tai-Chi Classics and covert it to bio mechanical terms.



Maybe one day we can meet, but till then we can just hash words at each other.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well what can I say, but the same thing right back at you.

If you think you know my level, then you should be able to talk about it, but you seem to not have first hand experience as to what I am talking about.
If you have been at my level you would be able to know what I referring to and describe in bio mechanical terms, or at least internal talk,
, or take things from Tai-Chi Classics and covert it to bio mechanical terms.



Maybe one day we can meet, but till then we can just hash words at each other.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not claim to know your level of skill, however your comments allow readers to draw a reasonable conclusion about your level of understanding. The fact you do not appear to have any insight into the bio-mechanics of movement, specifically tai chi, says a great deal about you to those of us that do have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics.

I do not want to take the time, and I have done this type of things a number of times in the past on this board, but I could very easily explain the bio-mechanics, momentum and psychology of joy's sumo vid. It is OBVIOUS to those who understand bio-mechanics and the martial arts use of demonstrations in order to give the impression of some magical or special power or ability. As I stated previously, it is similar to a magicians trick!

It is a setup from the beginning. And, as with a magician's trick, once one knows how it is done, it loses its mystery and specialness and it becomes ordinary, which it was from the start!

[YouKnowWho]

We all walked into the fog sometime in our life.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.travelpod.com/users/terry_dianne/1.1253212486.heavy-fog-ahead.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.travelpod.com/travel-photo/terry_dianne/1/1253212486/heavy-fog-ahead.jpg/tpod.html&h=413&w=550&sz=44&tbnid=wHCT4-oJJ9ufQM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dheavy%2Bfog%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=heavy+fog&docid=yzEfQ3NVGSq_DM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jBGnTtiJKfPaiQLG6IGVDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CFkQ9QEwBg&dur=156

Some walk out of the fog, some stay in the fog and can't find way out. For people who are out of the fog trying to communicate with people who are still in the fog is difficult. People just have to walk out of fog all by themselves.

When you walk in the fog, your view of the world is different. When you walk out of the fog, you then realize that the world in the fog and the world outside the fog are the same. If there are no monsters outside the fog, there should be no monsters inside the fog.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=monsters+inside+fog&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=738&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=MLSp7hsXCEyLAM:&imgrefurl=http://www.examiner.com/getaways-in-kansas-city/monsters-lurk-the-fog-at-halloween-haunt-photo&docid=4HHAHfJp3u4N6M&imgurl=http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/2e/a4/2ea4a2857343ab211de043d8396c5180.jpg&w=600&h=391&ei=xBSnTt3PPKX-iQKT0bShDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=278&sig=109104337924873506081&page=2&tbnh=163&tbnw=214&start=30&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:30&tx=102&ty=97

[Scott R. Brown]

Very much like Plato's Allegory of the Cave!

[Robinhood]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not claim to know your level of skill, however your comments allow readers to draw a reasonable conclusion about your level of understanding. The fact you do not appear to have any insight into the bio-mechanics of movement, specifically tai chi, says a great deal about you to those of us that do have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics.

I do not want to take the time, and I have done this type of things a number of times in the past on this board, but I could very easily explain the bio-mechanics, momentum and psychology of joy's sumo vid. It is OBVIOUS to those who understand bio-mechanics and the martial arts use of demonstrations in order to give the impression of some magical or special power or ability. As I stated previously, it is similar to a magicians trick!

It is a setup from the beginning. And, as with a magician's trick, once one knows how it is done, it loses its mystery and specialness and it becomes ordinary, which it was from the start!

I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.

Just because some guy does Tai-chi sets and is in a video does not mean that he is any good, almost everyone I have meet that knows the Tai-Chi has no idea of what internal energy is.

Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.

So tell me of your years of standing experience.?

Like Hendrick says, without first going through the double doors you will not know.

[YouKnowWho]

Besides talking about whether "internal" guys can generate power more efficiency than the "external" guys or not, Let's talk about how "internal" can be applied in the wrestling environment. Instead of talking about the striking world, let's talk about the grappling world.

I had played with many Taiji instructors in my life. The moment that I touched hands with them, they all felt like "internal" guys to me (not willing to commit on anything). The moment that I got them into clinching situation, they all acted like "external" guys and started to use their brute force and tried to get away.

Does this mean that "internal" don't work well in the wrestling environment when you and your opponent's body are connected as one? What's your guy's opinion on this?

[Robinhood]

Besides talking about whether "internal" guys can generate power more efficiency than the "external" guys or not, Let's talk about how "internal" can be applied in the wrestling environment. Instead of talking about the striking world, let's talk about the grappling world.

I had played with many Taiji instructors in my life. The moment that I touched hands with them, they all felt like "internal" guys to me (not willing to commit on anything). The moment that I got them into clinching situation, they all acted like "external" guys and started to use their brute force and tried to get away.

Does this mean that "internal" don't work well in the wrestling environment? What's your guy's opinion on this?

It does not matter, up, down, sideways, it still should work. Like I said before, just because a guy does Tai-Chi does not mean he has any internal, most don't have anything, they try to be soft and run from the action.

I don't think you have found a real internal guy yet.

[Dragonzbane76]

don't think you have found a real internal guy yet

I know one, HW108, he's right up your alley. You guys should get along fantastically. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.

Just because some guy does Tai-chi sets and is in a video does not mean that he is any good, almost everyone I have meet that knows the Tai-Chi has no idea of what internal energy is.

Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.

So tell me of your years of standing experience.?

Like Hendrick says, without first going through the double doors you will not know.

I don't waste my time standing meditation. While I do not believe it is a complete watse of time, it is a not an efficient use of time. The fact you quoted Hendrik explains volumes.

I would agree that most people who practice tai chi do not understand internal principles, having said that I have seen no evidence that you do either.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you have found a real internal guy yet.
We can only talk about our life experience. We can't talk about something that we don't have personal experience with. My personal experience is that the moment that my body is connected with my opponent's body, the word "internal" no longer has meaning.

If I can glue my body on my opponent's body like an octopus wrap around a fish, how can you use your "internal' power to shake me off?

This is a short clip just for this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY

[Robinhood]

I don't waste my time standing meditation. While I do not believe it is a complete watse of time, it is a not an efficient use of time. The fact you quoted Hendrik explains volumes.

I would agree that most people who practice tai chi do not understand internal principles, having said that I have seen no evidence that you do either.

Having not put your time standing, you would not no what evidence is anyway.

But I can see the evidence. That's where the difference comes in.

[Scott R. Brown]

Having not put your time standing, you would not no what evidence is anyway.

But I can see the evidence. That's where the difference comes in.

Aw yes! The magic of standing! Only true standers know the magic of standing! But you must stand correctlly or your standing is not standing and you will not know the magic!

Such is the stuff that dreams are made!

The world needs dreamers who fancy they have secret knowlledge that only the special people who do the magic standing will know.....or not. But they exist just the same! Everyone wants to feel they are special, some people develop useful skills, while others stand and think themselves skilled.


We can only talk about our life experience. We can't talk about something that we don't have personal experience with. My personal experience is that the moment that my body is connected with my opponent's body, the word "internal" no longer has meaning.

If I can glue my body on my opponent's body like an octopus wrap around a fish, how can you use your "internal' power to shake me off?

This is a short clip just for this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY

Ha! Great vid. I used to do that very same thing when I was a kid!

[Robinhood]

We can only talk about our life experience. We can't talk about something that we don't have personal experience with. My personal experience is that the moment that my body is connected with my opponent's body, the word "internal" no longer has meaning.

If I can glue my body on my opponent's body like an octopus wrap around a fish, how can you use your "internal' power to shake me off?

This is a short clip just for this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY

What does two guys wrestling have to do with internal.?

Anyway getting close to an internal should not matter, because you are on the outside still, unless you can get inside him. Why does the guy want to shake you off ?., unless that is the game you are playing, and if it was the game, I don't think shaking off is a good use of energy.

[Scott R. Brown]

What does two guys wrestling have to do with internal.?

Anyway getting close to an internal should not matter, because you are on the outside still, unless you can get inside him. Why does the guy want to shake you off ?., unless that is the game you are playing, and if it was the game, I don't think shaking off is a good use of energy.

In a fight what is important is winning, not whether one fancies himself internal or external. It is also immaterial how much energy one uses as long as one does not kill himself in the winning!

Funny thing about energy, it is replenishable and there is usually plenty to spare even when one thinks he has no more to expend!

[YouKnowWho]

What does two guys wrestling have to do with internal.?

If you can't apply your "internal" skill in wrestling, your "internal" skill will be useless. In the real world, it's not where you want to be. It's where your opponent wants you to be.

What's good is "internal" to you if it can't help you in "combat"?

[Robinhood]

If you can't apply your "internal" skill in wrestling, your "internal" skill will be useless. In the real world, it's not where you want to be. It's where your opponent wants you to be.

What's good is "internal" to you if it can't help you in "combat"?

You can use it anyway you want, so is one of the wrestlers supposed to be using internal?, only the participant's will be able know that, video looks like external to me, but, then again with all that movement, I would guess internal was not used.

[Robinhood]

If you can't apply your "internal" skill in wrestling, your "internal" skill will be useless. In the real world, it's not where you want to be. It's where your opponent wants you to be.

What's good is "internal" to you if it can't help you in "combat"?

Who said internal is not used for combat?, that is probably one of the reasons why it was developed, to counter all the external muscle heads, without being a muscle head, or the smaller to defeat the larger.

Plus all the health benefits that go along with internal practice.

What would you rather have, a bank account that looses money, or one that keeps growing as you get older?.

[YouKnowWho]

You can use it anyway you want, so is one of the wrestlers supposed to be using internal?, only the participant's will be able know that, video looks like external to me, but, then again with all that movement, I would guess internal was not used.


- from heel to head.
- from back to front,
- tuck tail bone,
- keep head vertical,
- Sung,
- yield,
- follow,
- stick,
- borrow counter force from the ground,
- sink Qi down,
- Dantien rotation,
- head lead body,
- press on toes and raise head,
- silk reeling,
- ...

The following "internal" principles are used in that clip:

- Sung,
- sink,
- yield,
- sticky,
- follow,
- borrow force,
- borrow your opponent's rooting.

Can any "internal" guy be able to do any different from this?

[YouKnowWho]

Who said internal is not used for combat?, that is probably one of the reasons why it was developed, to counter all the external muscle heads, without being a muscle head, or the smaller to defeat the larger.

Plus all the health benefits that go along with internal practice.

What would you rather have, a bank account that looses money, or one that keeps growing as you get older?.

I prefer not to talk about "health" and "self-cultivation" in this thread. If we want to talk about it, I have to say that "external" gives me more "health" benefit than "internal".

I do:

- sit up so I don't have fat belly.
- push up and weight so my muscle is firm,
- run 4 miles 3 times a week so my lung and heart function well.
- stretch so I'm flexibility.
- 13 Tai Bo so my balance is good.
- ...

I truly don't see that "internal" can help me any more than "external". Again, I'm speaking from my personal experience since I learned Taiji when I was 7 years old. That was almost 60 years ago.

[Robinhood]

The following "internal" principles are used in that clip:

- Sung,
- sink,
- yield,
- sticky,
- follow,
- borrow force,
- borrow your opponent's rooting.

Can any "internal" guy be able to do any different from this?

These are all being done at body level, their are higher levels of application.

So, yes your level can be higher.

If you are not familiar with body level, that would be another subject.

[YouKnowWho]

The following statement was quoted from the Chang style Taiji founder:

"It's high level if you can apply your skill in combat, it's low level otherwise."

[RickMatz]

Here is another thing to try to demonstrate the fantasy of internal:

If internal power is REAL, use it against a 280# Sumo Wrestler or a Pro NFL Lineman. Size should not matter if one is using REAL internal power! I prefer to see your proof demonstrated against the Sumo Wrestler since he has more experience using Bio-Mechanics in a martial atmosphere.

Demos for internal power are always used against the inexperience, and students, but if it can work in real life it can work against an experienced Sumo Wrestler.

Good Luck!:p

Taijiquan guy pushing hands with retired Sumo champion (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2006/08/taiji-versus-sumo.html). The thing that I think is impressive is that the Taijiquan guy is giving away more weight than he himself weighs! I find this impressive if for no other reason than that.

[Taixuquan99]

An answer would be nice....

Or how does one do a hip throw internally?

By hip throwing someone who was already going that way, no one could say you did a hip throw at all. Externally, you had the appearance of a hip throw, but internally you were just slagging off, and that's what did the hip throw, "I'd catch you, but no."

I think a lot of throws are just getting out of the way. This is knowing how to get out of the way, reading what the way is, etc. Internal processes as the key to managing the external processes, like judo does, or bjj on the ground, or tkd in selecting a mall location. All the good styles are internal, because they do not see their applications as enforced upon reality, but in response to a reality that you train yourself to see and respond to, the sight and the response learned makes someone able to use the technique, the technique does not do the same.

That said, if the structures adopted lead naturally, and you don't fight this tendency when pressure is applied, but use it naturally, then it's neither your internal motion or your external that defines that exchange, but the opponent's decisions and their efficiency or inefficiency in applying it, if you are drawing them into something, it is them who acts externally.

Either way, what comes to be is not defined by your external structure, your internal processes, or your opponent's, but the combination. If you are part of that, instead of being part of your technique, then even as you do a technique, you are internal to the fight, while the technique is external.

There is no separation between internal and external. Functional fighting kung fu all looks suspiciously "internal", while dancing and empty form all looks "external".

Kung fu that looks fancy in form looks normal in usage.

A 700 lbs. female jockey could kill a featherweight ufc fighter.

[Taixuquan99]

I've mentioned this before, but I do an internal form, and I've seen footage of an important individual in our line doing a round kick in his form, and did so as well for a long time.

The closest variant I have seen is muay thai, but the waist work is different in the version as done. This is a description of the external shape, but the internal rationale is sound, there is a dropping initially that fools the eye and leads the opponent to expect something other than a round kick, the dropping forward scoops and rises as the kick is executed. Nothing magical. Magical explanations of normal things are not internal.

[YouKnowWho]

how does one do a hip throw internally?
What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It always cracks me up how every so often some "internal" guy will come on here and tell us all how know one knows internal, how there is a difference between internal and external, how grappling, which is the closest thing in the sense of internal there is, is not internal, and best yet, how none of us know "real" internal and have never been properly taught it's methods yet will provide no evidence of themselves or anyone else demonstrating it.

Sound like someone else we know on this forum.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

Amen John.
Funny thing is that all the IMA guys I know that actually FIGHT, don't ever spew this "internal nonsense".

[ShaolinDan]

By hip throwing someone who was already going that way, no one could say you did a hip throw at all. Externally, you had the appearance of a hip throw, but internally you were just slagging off, and that's what did the hip throw, "I'd catch you, but no."

I think a lot of throws are just getting out of the way. This is knowing how to get out of the way, reading what the way is, etc. Internal processes as the key to managing the external processes, like judo does, or bjj on the ground, or tkd in selecting a mall location. All the good styles are internal, because they do not see their applications as enforced upon reality, but in response to a reality that you train yourself to see and respond to, the sight and the response learned makes someone able to use the technique, the technique does not do the same.

That said, if the structures adopted lead naturally, and you don't fight this tendency when pressure is applied, but use it naturally, then it's neither your internal motion or your external that defines that exchange, but the opponent's decisions and their efficiency or inefficiency in applying it, if you are drawing them into something, it is them who acts externally.

Either way, what comes to be is not defined by your external structure, your internal processes, or your opponent's, but the combination. If you are part of that, instead of being part of your technique, then even as you do a technique, you are internal to the fight, while the technique is external.

There is no separation between internal and external. Functional fighting kung fu all looks suspiciously "internal", while dancing and empty form all looks "external".

Kung fu that looks fancy in form looks normal in usage.

A 700 lbs. female jockey could kill a featherweight ufc fighter.

I like a lot of what's in this post.

When we change our perspective, the whole world/universe seems to shift, but no one sees it except ourselves.

'Internal' is a lens you can put on to focus in on certain aspects of your training...just like when we focus on speed, or on power, or on ... in the end it all gets put back together seamlessly, we just take it apart to work on certain aspects. there's no such thing as pure internal or pure external, it's just about where the emphasis is being placed.

[Scott R. Brown]

I truly don't see that "internal" can help me any more than "external". Again, I'm speaking from my personal experience since I learned Taiji when I was 7 years old. That was almost 60 years ago.

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!:rolleyes:

[dirtyrat]

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!:rolleyes:

dude! rub it in, why don't 'cha?!?;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Taijiquan guy pushing hands with retired Sumo champion (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2006/08/taiji-versus-sumo.html). The thing that I think is impressive is that the Taijiquan guy is giving away more weight than he himself weighs! I find this impressive if for no other reason than that.

I don't mean to imply the vid wasn't entertaining, but Akebono threw himself! All the Tai Chi guy did was draw Akebono in until he over extended his center and then move out of the way.

It is no different than an old box trap. The stick holds the box up, when you pull the stick out of the way, the box falls down. You get the guy to lean on you, then you move out of the way, and he fall down go boom!

Technically that was not a throw, but it is a good efficient use of psychology and tactics!;)

[Scott R. Brown]

dude! rub it in, why don't 'cha?!?;)

With 60's years training under his belt, he can take it!:D;)

[Mike Patterson]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.


All due respect... What's to discuss? A hip throw is a hip throw.

But once again I must differ with you (which is more rare than not) since "hip strike" is part of the "seven stars" body method of hsingi (xingyi) as it was taught to me. And we use both methods as you describe above as "traditional" and "modern" for that throw. The first found more often in hsingi (xingyi), the second more in the pakua (bagua) or taichi (taiji) that I practice.

Unless of course I am misunderstanding your words, which is always possible. Many things really must be compared in person to be understood in terms of "difference" or "same".

As for the vid of Akebono and the Taiji fellow..

All are quite correct, nothing mystical there. Simple leverage and conversion once the taiji fellow got Akebono (sp?) to lean on him with his great mass. And if you look closely, you'll see his spine begin to lose it's brace just before he empties his right side to let Akebono topple over. So, the taiji fellow almost failed and quickly recovered. In the second link up, he does a much better job of bracing/grounding... probably more prepared as a result of the first go around.

Scott's "box and stick" analogy is a good one for this method. Just my two cents. :)

[YouKnowWho]

What's to discuss? A hip throw is a hip throw.
That's exactly my point, "A hip throw is a hip throw". If we expand this a bit futher, "A throw is a throw." There is no "internal" throws or "external" throws.

I have seen IMA guys learned hip throw. After many years of training, when they apply that hip throw on the mat against their opponents, their hip throws were no different from those who had no "internal" MA training.

[Robinhood]

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!:rolleyes:

Boy, I am away for awhile and you guys are making things up already.

Where did you get 4 years of experience from?, if you need to make up lies because you can not defend your position with words, that does not say much of your character.

If you think your learning Tai-Chi sets at seven years old means something, that is your experience with internal, no wonder.

Lets stick to the discussion not try to act like politicians.

[Eric Olson]

Wow, I forgot I even started this thread. Um, again, it all comes back to this....standing. If you practice, standing posture for 20 minutes a day for the next year, then come back and tell us that the way you move hasn't changed.

Internal simply means efficient, unencumbered movement. Standing meditation causes you to become more aware of your body and therefore the "kinks in the the hose" so to speak. If you are more aware of your own body and it's not getting in your own way, you are better able to feel your opponents movements...no secret.

To answer John Wang's question about hip throws. If you are in a position where you can be thrown, you're already off balance. You can't throw someone who doesn't already have some forward momentum or who is dead weight (ie totally limp). So what is an "internal" hip throw? I don't think it exists, just as internal weight lifting doesn't exist.

EO

[Robinhood]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

I don't know why you are always talking about movements and techniques, INTERNAL comes before the movement.

With your vast array of books you copy from, what does it say about JIN ?

If you can manifest JIN then you are doing internal, then you do your movement, be it hip throw or what ever, but they must be linked.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know why you are always talking about movements and techniques, INTERNAL comes before the movement.

With your vast array of books you copy from, what does it say about JING ?

If you can manifest JING then you are doing internal, then you do your movement, be it hip throw or what ever, but they must be linked.

IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
Way longer.
One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
You should listen to the man.

[Robinhood]

Amen John.
Funny thing is that all the IMA guys I know that actually FIGHT, don't ever spew this "internal nonsense".

Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

Classic.
How does that old taiji saying go?
Standing chi is better than sitting chi, moving chi is better than standing chi.
Or something to that effect...

[Robinhood]

IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
Way longer.
One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
You should listen to the man.

We are just talking MA stuff, I have no doubt John likes to mix it up and is good at it, but we are talking about application of internal principles not who can beat each other up.

I am not inventing some new system of application, we are talking about the principles of internal application as described in books like " The Tai-Chi Classics", I think John is familiar with these and has opinions as to there effectiveness and application.

[Robinhood]

Classic.
How does that old taiji saying go?
Standing chi is better than sitting chi, moving chi is better than standing chi.
Or something to that effect...

I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.

[taai gihk yahn]

If Chi does not excist, why do Chinese have acupuncture?
because "qi" is a metaphor; it's not a distinct entity in the way light, heat, electricity, gravity, etc. are; however, these various phenommena are all aspects / manifestations of "qi" - "qi" is a means of getting a handle on the complex interactions of the various body systems; when u don't have the ability technoogically to say what is going on specificaly, when u hav no notion of the cell, blood chemistry, etc., u come up with a methodology that is based on macro-observation: pulse / tongue dx, palpation of other things, pt. history, appearance of the eyes, skin, etc. - then u take all of those and contextualize them metaphorically; acupunture works in context of this metaphorical architecture by stimulating the autonomic nervous system and the connective tissue system to push the body towards homeostasis - if u look at what acupuncture works for, u realize it's a form of constitutional medicine; it doesn't work on the same principles as tuina or herbal medicine - however, these approaches also influence "qi"; so use of the "qi" metaphor is not unique to acupunture; "qi" is, again, an amalgam - it's a metaphorical descriptor designed to be diagnostic, prognostic and predictive; if u disagree, go read Kaptchuk's Web That Has No Weaver, and u will emerge with a much more correct understanding of "qi"


Chi is like gravity, can you see gravity, is it bio mechanical?,
ur argument is intrinsically faulty - u can't see gravity, but u can demonstrate objectively it to anyone at any time; "qi" OTOH cannot be demonstrated at all, it is a purely subjective experience


just because you cannot use Chi does not mean other people can't.
people can claim to see all sorts of things - this is why we differentiate between subjective experience and objective fact;


Doing your external exercises will not develop your Chi, and your bio mechanical momentum is not useing Chi.
yes u can, and yes it is - "qi" is not exclusive to so-called "internal" - the function of the human organism in context of its environment is what "qi" describes - doing so-called "external" and biomechanics r all aspects / expressions of "qi"
this is the typical internalist conceit that internal / qi is somehow higher than / beyond simple "crude" biomechanics - it's part of the superiority mindset that Sun Lu Tang set up and validated when he made the distinction btw internal / external in his book.


So if you want to think you are doing internal too, without doing the training, you might be the one drinking the kool-aid.
ur assessment of "qi" is typical of those who hav not studied classical Taoist practice in any great depth;


Yes, that would be the Tai-Chi Classics.
those would also be made up - u shud do ur historical research a bit more thoroughly; the so-called taiji classic were serendipitously "discovered" by two of Yang Lu Chan's students (the Mo brothers) hidden in a salt shop; if u knew a little about Yang's level of literary education and his level of understanding regarding the theoretical end of what he taught, as well as that of the Mo brothers, u wouldn't take those writings as classics about anything


We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.
"basic' bio mechanics is probably more complex than u r aware of - have u even studied the topic at all?


Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.
If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.[/QUOTE]
this is ur rigid bias and dilletantism coming through - ur sub-text is typical: internal is "beyond" the ability of science, and anyone who doesn't agree w ur perspective...


I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.
no, it goes beyond YOUR understanding of biomechanics; I can use biomechanics to explain so-called "internal" without any problem;


Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.
realy? let me ask you - can u analyze the classical 108 form from a Taoist Alchemical perspective? for example, the posture that most people call Single Whip - from a Taoist energetic perspective, what is going on there? my friend, ther is LOTS of 'internal" stuff going on in the taiji set...


So tell me of your years of standing experience.?
how about u tell us about yours?


Having not put your time standing, you would not no what evidence is anyway. But I can see the evidence. That's where the difference comes in.
ok - so what is the "evidence' that u have seen as a result of doing standing practice?
Have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? do yu know what those are? can u explain them physiologically?


Who said internal is not used for combat?, that is probably one of the reasons why it was developed, to counter all the external muscle heads, without being a muscle head, or the smaller to defeat the larger.
lol - u really buy into that conceit? u've been reading a bit too much Sun Lu Tang propoganda...


Plus all the health benefits that go along with internal practice.
no different than the health benefits that go along with so-called"external" practices like yoga (which is really closer to "internal" than most people think it is), Feldenkries, Pilates (when done according to the founder;s perspective, not the modern day stuff u see), etc.;


Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.
doing forms wil not make u any sort of MA guy, internal or external;

[Robinhood]

because "qi" is a metaphor; it's not a distinct entity in the way light, heat, electricity, gravity, etc. are; however, these various phenommena are all aspects / manifestations of "qi" - "qi" is a means of getting a handle on the complex interactions of the various body systems; when u don't have the ability technoogically to say what is going on specificaly, when u hav no notion of the cell, blood chemistry, etc., u come up with a methodology that is based on macro-observation: pulse / tongue dx, palpation of other things, pt. history, appearance of the eyes, skin, etc. - then u take all of those and contextualize them metaphorically; acupunture works in context of this metaphorical architecture by stimulating the autonomic nervous system and the connective tissue system to push the body towards homeostasis - if u look at what acupuncture works for, u realize it's a form of constitutional medicine; it doesn't work on the same principles as tuina or herbal medicine - however, these approaches also influence "qi"; so use of the "qi" metaphor is not unique to acupunture; "qi" is, again, an amalgam - it's a metaphorical descriptor designed to be diagnostic, prognostic and predictive; if u disagree, go read Kaptchuk's Web That Has No Weaver, and u will emerge with a much more correct understanding of "qi"


ur argument is intrinsically faulty - u can't see gravity, but u can demonstrate objectively it to anyone at any time; "qi" OTOH cannot be demonstrated at all, it is a purely subjective experience


people can claim to see all sorts of things - this is why we differentiate between subjective experience and objective fact;


yes u can, and yes it is - "qi" is not exclusive to so-called "internal" - the function of the human organism in context of its environment is what "qi" describes - doing so-called "external" and biomechanics r all aspects / expressions of "qi"
this is the typical internalist conceit that internal / qi is somehow higher than / beyond simple "crude" biomechanics - it's part of the superiority mindset that Sun Lu Tang set up and validated when he made the distinction btw internal / external in his book.


ur assessment of "qi" is typical of those who hav not studied classical Taoist practice in any great depth;


those would also be made up - u shud do ur historical research a bit more thoroughly; the so-called taiji classic were serendipitously "discovered" by two of Yang Lu Chan's students (the Mo brothers) hidden in a salt shop; if u knew a little about Yang's level of literary education and his level of understanding regarding the theoretical end of what he taught, as well as that of the Mo brothers, u wouldn't take those writings as classics about anything


"basic' bio mechanics is probably more complex than u r aware of - have u even studied the topic at all?


If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.]





Thanks for your long winded reply that just lets us all know that you don't have or know what internal is !.

Why don't you do what Eric said and stand for a year, then come back with a little experience, then maybe you would have something to base your comments on.

[Scott R. Brown]

Boy, I am away for awhile and you guys are making things up already.

Where did you get 4 years of experience from?, if you need to make up lies because you can not defend your position with words, that does not say much of your character.

If you think your learning Tai-Chi sets at seven years old means something, that is your experience with internal, no wonder.

Lets stick to the discussion not try to act like politicians.

Lighten up Leslie! It is called hyperbole! Look it up!:p

I don't care if you have trained for 4 years or 10, you are still a novice who doesn't know what you are talking about. You are very good at repeating platitudes, but anyone can do that, so that is not very impressive!

[wenshu]

You can't throw someone who doesn't already have some forward momentum or who is dead weight (ie totally limp).

This is just. . . wow. . . just, wow.

I don't even know what to think anymore.

[Scott R. Brown]

this is ur rigid bias and dilletantism coming through - ur sub-text is typical: internal is "beyond" the ability of science, and anyone who doesn't agree w ur perspective...


no, it goes beyond YOUR understanding of biomechanics; I can use biomechanics to explain so-called "internal" without any problem;


realy? let me ask you - can u analyze the classical 108 form from a Taoist Alchemical perspective? for example, the posture that most people call Single Whip - from a Taoist energetic perspective, what is going on there? my friend, ther is LOTS of 'internal" stuff going on in the taiji set...


how about u tell us about yours?


ok - so what is the "evidence' that u have seen as a result of doing standing practice?
Have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? do yu know what those are? can u explain them physiologically?


lol - u really buy into that conceit? u've been reading a bit too much Sun Lu Tang propoganda...


no different than the health benefits that go along with so-called"external" practices like yoga (which is really closer to "internal" than most people think it is), Feldenkries, Pilates (when done according to the founder;s perspective, not the modern day stuff u see), etc.;


doing forms wil not make u any sort of MA guy, internal or external;

Oh Boy! You asked for it now!!

Everybody back up.....make room.....make room.......he may have just unleashed Chris!!!!!:eek:

Dim wit has NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING HERE! He has just fed the Gremlin!!!

Go Chris, GO! Go Chris GO!!!

You better hope Chris is too busy to post, cuz you are in for it now!!!!:p:p:p

[taai gihk yahn]

Thanks for your long winded reply that just lets us all know that you don't have or know what internal is !.=
lol - typical - I present you with detailed specifics that refute your claims, and that you can't answer, and so u characterize me as "long winded", and then broadly dismiss me as having no idea what so-called "internal" is, without providing any evidence to support ur assertion that I don't (e.g. - refuting what I state as incorrect and showing why); all because I don't agree with your party-line perspective on it;

seems like if anyone is blowing wind here, it's you;



Why don't you do what Eric said and stand for a year, then come back with a little experience, then maybe you would have something to base your comments on.
instead of ducking, why don't YOU answer the questions I posed:

1) in regards to standing, have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? if u r so "internally" astute as u claim, u should at least have achieved that; if u hav, u shud b familiar with what is required to move the circulation beyond Jade Pillow - in what way did this occur for u?

2) considering the taiji posture called SIngle WHip: how is it relevant in terms of Taoist Alchemical (the root of so-called "internal") practice? what does it represent? how does it relate to general standing practice, and progress beyond it?

these are RUDIMENTARY aspects of classical internal practice; if u have been standing for at least a year, under the guidance of a classically trained master, u shud have been exposed to the principles and concepts germane to these things;

if u want to talk as an authority about internal, u shud b able to speak to these things with relative ease;

it's amazing - everytime I address detailed specifics of classical internal practice to someone who runs off at the mouth like they understand it all, they have no answer, and I am told I have no knowledge thereof; what is wrong with people on this board?

[Scott R. Brown]

I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.

And a gun is better than all of them. One bullet erases 100 years of training!


Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

So, let me get this straight, moving does not make you an internal guy, but standing does???:rolleyes:

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

[taai gihk yahn]

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Mr. Kahter!!! Ooo! Ooo!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CXVtm97fWDo/TDNQDw3xWeI/AAAAAAAABtw/MuUGBg7H2dw/s1600/horshack.jpg

[Robinhood]

Lighten up Leslie! It is called hyperbole! Look it up!:p

I don't care if you have trained for 4 years or 10, you are still a novice who doesn't know what you are talking about. You are very good at repeating platitudes, but anyone can do that, so that is not very impressive!

Your the one that is trying to BS me, but I can see your hand, and you don't have the cards to back up your claims.

If you don't have it, you can't bluff your way with someone that has it.

Take the time and do some steady standing and maybe you will realize something.

I have been where you are, your the novice.

Try to figure out what JING means, this is what you are missing in your bio mechanical world.

[Scott R. Brown]

Your the one that is trying to BS me, but I can see your hand, and you don't have the cards to back up your claims.

If you don't have it, you can't bluff your way with someone that has it.

Take the time and do some steady standing and maybe you will realize something.

I have been where you are, your the novice.

Try to figure out what JING means, this is what you are missing in your bio mechanical world.

RiiiIIIIIiiiiiight! I missed the magic, that no one knows here but you because you are the REAL internal guy who doesn't even know the history of the term or what it really means, only the made up meaning from Sun Lu'tang!

[Robinhood]

And a gun is better than all of them. One bullet erases 100 years of training!



So, let me get this straight, moving does not make you an internal guy, but standing does???:rolleyes:

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

If you guys spent half the time at your art as you do trying to protect what little you think you have, you might get somewhere.

Your like a paper pusher that never gets any real work done.

You need to stop worrying about what I can do, and figure out why you can't do it.

I give you the book and it describes everything, and all you guys can say it is fake, its only fake to you because you can't do or understand it.

That says volumes about you.

[Scott R. Brown]

it's amazing - everytime I address detailed specifics of classical internal practice to someone who runs off at the mouth like they understand it all, they have no answer, and I am told I have no knowledge thereof; what is wrong with people on this board?

You see, the problem you have is that you think you know something just because you have practiced for years under a renowned and accomplished Taoist Teacher with a long list of students and has credentials up the yahoo, but you are no Robinhood with his 4 years of standing and 6 months or reading really important books on Tai Chi Taoverse Deity knowledabilisticnesses!

[Scott R. Brown]

If you guys spent half the time at your art as you do trying to protect what little you think you have, you might get somewhere.

Your like a paper pusher that never gets any real work done.

You need to stop worrying about what I can do, and figure out why you can't do it.

I give you the book and it describes everything, and all you guys can say it is fake, its only fake to you because you can't do or understand it.

That says volumes about you.

If you spent some time answering simple questions put to you about simple topics that you SHOULD know something about if you are the internalist you pretend to be because you are an expert at standing, then perhaps you would not reap the ridicule you are sowing....or something like that!:rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Your the one that is trying to BS me, but I can see your hand, and you don't have the cards to back up your claims.

If you don't have it, you can't bluff your way with someone that has it.

Take the time and do some steady standing and maybe you will realize something.

I have been where you are, your the novice.

Try to figure out what JING means, this is what you are missing in your bio mechanical world.

talk about bluffing: you claim that you "have it', and yet when someone presents you with detailed, specific questions regarding your degree of attainment in classical, Taoist Internal Alchemical practice, which anyone with even basic, rudimentary experience would be able to speak to, you refuse to answer them, and then just ignore them;

hmmm...

I think that we all now know EXACTLY what sort of fellow we r dealing with here...

http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/offtopic-english/943221003d1294081560-english-spam-thread-troll.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

talk about bluffing: you claim that you "have it', and yet when someone presents you with detailed, specific questions regarding your degree of attainment in classical, Taoist Internal Alchemical practice, which anyone with even basic, rudimentary experience would be able to speak to, you refuse to answer them, and then just ignore them;

hmmm...

I think that we all now know EXACTLY what sort of fellow we r dealing with here...

http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/offtopic-english/943221003d1294081560-english-spam-thread-troll.jpg

Troll? What Troll? I don't see a Troll anywhere?

Where's the Troll?

[taai gihk yahn]

You see, the problem you have is that you think you know something just because you have practiced for years under a renowned and accomplished Taoist Teacher with a long list of students and has credentials up the yahoo, but you are no Robinhood with his 4 years of standing and 6 months or reading really important books on Tai Chi Taoverse Deity knowledabilisticnesses!

well, the REAL problem is that, like most internal-dilettantes, he has adopted the perspective that what he considers internal is somehow different from, superior to, more profound than what he considers external; this makes him feel like he is doing something special, and that, by extension, he is special; he has created for himself an unassailable position that, whereas most people don't "get it", he does - that he now has a special perspective on life, because he practices this thing that is so rarified and hoary; this is why he fixates on how his view of internal is beyond explanation from the perspective of biomechanics (which he doesn't even understand as such, lol); so he feels that he cannot be judged by anyone else, and his answer to criticism is to pull the old saw of "you just don't get it" (gee, we've NEVER heard that from any internal practitioner here, lol);

the problem is that when others such as myself with equal or perhaps even more experience than he has, come along and point out that what he does ain't all that special, and that it can be explained outside of its own paradigm (e.g. - via biomechanics and physiology), his specialness is threatened; so much so, that he can't even engage in a direct, point-to-point discussion, he simply dismisses the critiques as long-winded and uniformed;

it's rare to find someone who, when their secure world-view is up-ended, will face the possibility that they have to drop everything they thought they knew and embrace the uncertainty of "beginners mind"; of course, this is what the Ch'an masters used to deride the Taoist masters about, berating them for dragging around their walking corpses and whatnot;

30 blows, as I step over the corpse!

[Robinhood]

Why do some people try to change the subject of a thread to something else, because they don't have any knowledge of the subject. No one is concerned with your dumb following of some history which is neither here nor there.

It looks like only John has any true experiences to share.

The question is can you do it ?, not some he said she said debate.

Yaki, If you can read, then read the Tai-Chi Classics , if you think it is fake, is that because you don't understand and can't do it?., is that your proof that is is made up.

So I guess anything you can't do or understand makes it not real.

[Scott R. Brown]

well, the REAL problem is that, like most internal-dilettantes, he has adopted the perspective that what he considers internal is somehow different from, superior to, more profound than what he considers external; this makes him feel like he is doing something special, and that, by extension, he is special; he has created for himself an unassailable position that, whereas most people don't "get it", he does - that he now has a special perspective on life, because he practices this thing that is so rarified and hoary; this is why he fixates on how his view of internal is beyond explanation from the perspective of biomechanics (which he doesn't even understand as such, lol); so he feels that he cannot be judged by anyone else, and his answer to criticism is to pull the old saw of "you just don't get it" (gee, we've NEVER heard that from any internal practitioner here, lol);

the problem is that when others such as myself with equal or perhaps even more experience than he has, come along and point out that what he does ain't all that special, and that it can be explained outside of its own paradigm (e.g. - via biomechanics and physiology), his specialness is threatened; so much so, that he can't even engage in a direct, point-to-point discussion, he simply dismisses the critiques as long-winded and uniformed;

it's rare to find someone who, when their secure world-view is up-ended, will face the possibility that they have to drop everything they thought they knew and embrace the uncertainty of "beginners mind"; of course, this is what the Ch'an masters used to deride the Taoist masters about, berating them for dragging around their walking corpses and whatnot;

30 blows, as I step over the corpse!

Dude...you need to do more standing!

[Robinhood]

talk about bluffing: you claim that you "have it', and yet when someone presents you with detailed, specific questions regarding your degree of attainment in classical, Taoist Internal Alchemical practice, which anyone with even basic, rudimentary experience would be able to speak to, you refuse to answer them, and then just ignore them;

hmmm...



Sounds like your one of those guys that thinks studying something but never doing it makes you an authority.

Can you manifest JIN ?, not recreate sermons of monks!., I will bet most or all of those people you think know something can't manifest JIN..

Learning worthless history will not give you internal energy or the ability to do it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Why do some people try to change the subject of a thread to something else, because they don't have any knowledge of the subject. No one is concerned with your dumb following of some history which is neither here nor there.

It looks like only John has any true experiences to share.

The question is can you do it ?, not some he said she said debate.

Yaki, If you can read, then read the Tai-Chi Classics , if you think it is fake, is that because you don't understand and can't do it?., is that your proof that is is made up.

So I guess anything you can't do or understand makes it not real.

Why is it that some people try to change the subject pretending to know something about a subject but cannot talk about it in any way because it has to be experienced and only he has the experience which he cannot describe or validate in any way to others he insists must accept his narrow and ignorant view, but can't actually demonstrate any of it and insists he learned it all from standing and standing is the only way to learn this magic and thinks it is internal practice because he read it in a book somewhere but doesn't even know that internal is a made up word in the martial sense of fairly recent origin and has no real ancient foundation in the martial sense and is totally unfamiliar with the origins as used in ancient Taoist literature or its meaning, but insists that only he has true internal understanding as if he is gifted and everyone else is foolish except John who he just spent a number of posts criticizing and now pretends to accept his authority because he cannot defend his own position rationally only by talking incessantly about his magical abilites developed through standing?

Just asking!

[YouKnowWho]

Dude...you need to do more standing!

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is bettern than to be dead.

The day that you go to jail, you will have all the time in the world to do your "standing" in your 8 feet by 10 feet jail cell. When you are not in prison, you should jump, flip in the air, run, walk, see the beautiful world, and enjoy your life.

If you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- human being, that person will live longer.

Keep "moving" is the key for long life and not "standing".

[Scott R. Brown]

Sounds like your one of those guys that thinks studying something but never doing it makes you an authority.

Can you manifest JING ?, not recreate sermons of monks!., I will bet most or all of those people you think know something can't manifest JING.

Learning worthless history will not give you internal energy or the ability to do it.

I see, but mouthing off about something on an internet BB, demonstrates your expertise?

Can you manifest Jing? Who cares what your answer is? Anyone can say yes on the internet, but that doesn't demonstrate they can do it? We are supposed to accept your authority on a subject you can't even talk about or describe because it is too mystical to understand without the direct experience?

That makes you a novice Einstein! Anything that a person understands can be described, even inadequately using metaphor. Do a little research here on the board of the ten years or so of substantial post Chris and I have made concerning this subject and others like it, THEN contrast and compare those posts with yout idiotic diatribes, IF you can, which you can't.

You are in a very different class, the class with the conical little hats and a stool over in the corner!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is bettern than to be dead.

The day that you go to jail, you will have all the time in the world to do your "standing" in your 8 feet by 10 feet jail cell. When you are not in prison, you should jump, flip in the air, run, walk, see the beautiful world, and enjoy your life.

If you move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- human being, that person will live longer.

Keep "moving" is the key for long life and not "standing".

I like sleep meditation, but moving is a close second!

Standing incessantly is boring and bad for your feet and lower back! But for some it is the path to specialness!

[taai gihk yahn]

Sounds like your one of those guys that thinks studying something but never doing it makes you an authority.

Can you manifest JING ?, not recreate sermons of monks!., I will bet most or all of those people you think know something can't manifest JING.

Learning worthless history will not give you internal energy or the ability to do it.
u continue to fixate about manifesting JING (why r we capitalizing the whole word?) like an autistic child w OCD, yet completely avoid discussion of macro / micro orbit practice, which is a major component of standing practice; I mean, u do know this, right?

or, maybe u r just stuck at the level of "jing"? given that "jing" is the lowest / most basic aspect of Orbital Practice, it's conceivable that ur fixation on "jing" and inability to speak to the entire Circulatory progression is because u r only functioning at that level; which is fine - good for u, keep at it, one day u may break through;

OTOH, if u want to live in ur Lower Elixir Field for the rest of ur life, that's fine, good for u; but there are two other Dan Tin's that u need to cultivate to move to "qi" and "shen" that u may want to consider; but I imagine that's between u and ur sifu;

it's funny though - u keep speculating on what I know / don't know, what who I know can / cannot do - and yet again, u avoid discussing the specifics that wud give an indication of ur level, as if for some reason u have something to hide...

[Scott R. Brown]

u continue to fixate about manifesting JING (why r we capitalizing the whole word?) like an autistic child w OCD, yet completely avoid discussion of macro / micro orbit practice, which is a major component of standing practice; I mean, u do know this, right?

or, maybe u r just stuck at the level of "jing"? given that "jing" is the lowest / most basic aspect of Orbital Practice, it's conceivable that ur fixation on "jing" and inability to speak to the entire Circulatory progression is because u r only functioning at that level; which is fine - good for u, keep at it, one day u may break through;

OTOH, if u want to live in ur Lower Elixir Field for the rest of ur life, that's fine, good for u; but there are two other Dan Tin's that u need to cultivate to move to "qi" and "shen" that u may want to consider; but I imagine that's between u and ur sifu;

it's funny though - u keep speculating on what I know / don't know, what who I know can / cannot do - and yet again, u avoid discussing the specifics that wud give an indication of ur level, as if for some reason u have something to hide...

Oh! Wait! You mean HE is the Troll?

Whoa! Dude! I totally missed that! Boy! Do I feel dopey now!

[taai gihk yahn]

as regards standing practice being the key to internal:

I personally believe that standing practice is of great benefit, for numerous reasons; based on my own study / practice, I see it, roughly, in 3 parts: awareness, balancing, transformation;

initially, standing is about building awareness of ur self - it teaches u about how ur weight is distributed (e.g. - more on one leg than another, more forward / backward on ur feet); how u align posturally in gravity (e.g. - do u overly accentuate ur spinal curves, or underexentuate them; do you displace ur thoracic cage over ur pelvis in alignment or not; is ur head too forward, etc.); where u hold tension inappropriately; and what the state of ur breath is; as a relatively static practice, it provides an opportunity to notice all of these things in a situation where there is a relatively decreased amount of afferent sensory input occurring, which enable u to pay attention to the things above more readily than if u were moving, even slowly like in a taiji form; it also helps u notice the manner in which ur mind functions - how thoughts enter and how u attach to them, how u loose ur immediate awareness of the above things;

after a while, things can begin to happen, which is the rebalancing phase: one of the main things that can occur is spontaneous movement; of this there r several types / qualities: people can experience shaking, swaying, or writhing types of movement; this can be due to both spontaneous muscular movement as the generator (also known as ideomotor activity), or other things - for example, when loaded in a certain manner over time, connective tissue can star to spontaneously "unwind", which means that the tension / compression oads in the CT will "cue" the muscular system to move in such a way that the CT tensions will start to work themselves out; this sort of movement can actually be extremely beneficial if one understands how to respond to it in context of standing practice - sometimes one needs to just "go with the flow", other times, one needs to actually concertedly maintain standing in relative neutral; over time, one changes the way one relates to gravity and the ground through the structure; also, one can experience various sorts of emotional changes during practice - things from the past can "come up" and one can have a wide range of feelings, sometimes swinging from one extreme to another - at this point, having a teacher who has gone through this phase is helpful; it is also at this point that the Taoist classics talk about spontaneous manifestation of sights and sounds, and how one should not get distracted by these phenommena; basically, if we r talking about a neuromusculoskeletal rebalancing, the neural part can result in stimulation of various visual / auditory cortices, resulting in the above mentioned manifestations; finally, one can experience various changes in the breath, where one can experience a wide range of breathing patterns that seem to change of their own accord without rhyme or reason; these and other things sign like temperature changes, r signs of the autonomic nervous system is rebalancing, or more specifically, moving from a chronic sympathetic to a more parasympathetic state (which is the phase within which tissue regeneration - healing - takes place); over time, the CT will also change, as fibroblasts start laying down new CT fibers in context of the improved alignment as opposed to aberrant force vectors that had previoully been sitting in the CT system, creating conflict and dysfunction;

the next stage, transformation, is what happens when one has a) full awareness of body / breath / mind and b) the various physical / emotional dysfunctions present in the system have been re-integrated to the degree that they no longer create undue strain on the system's ability to maintain a balanced autonomic system, and the drive towards homeostasis is optimized; this is the point where standing practice becomes transformative - where one can stand and instantly achieve integrated function of the breath and the postural system relative to the ground reaction force coming up from the earth through the legs, pelvis, spine and cranium - it's where u get that instantaneous feeling of being energized, a feeling of seemingly endless spaciousness throughout the joints and CT system, where the cranium seems to "bob" or be buoyant on top of the spine - at this point, one experiences a sense of global freedom, as well as manifestation of the so-called channels "opening" (it is at this pint that one completes the Orbital Circulations as well)

of course, all of the above is described classically in various Taoist treatises - it's just not delineated so explicitly, and of course much of the language is metaphorical, because at the time there was less understanding of human anatomy and physiology than there is now - nevertheless, the practice can be fully and validly articulated from a contemporary standpoint, which is useful in terms of contextualizing the practice for modern-day practitioners, as well as for doing away with the mysticism aspect that many people use to obfuscate rather than to reveal the simple, yet profound nature of something like standing practice

of course, there is much more: u can do all of the above lying down, sitting, or walking as well -(it's just slightly different in each case); then one can engage in various other practices, some alone, some w a partner to progress and refine this - these drils can b martial or nonmartial in nature;

finally, one can work with / teach others, which requires one to have a whole different level of understanding, especially if one is teaching this to people with clinical issues (which, as a PT, I have had much occasion to do, and have seen uniformly positive results in people with long standing histories of various dysfunctions;

but anyway, just my 2 cents based on my experience of standing practice...

addendum: this is the original topic of this thread, right? I mean, no one can accuse me of going OT now, right? of course, if anyone wants to say I know nothing about internal, and I'm sure they will , fine; but if they want to discount what I say, I hope that they will go through my post point by point and key specifically what is wrong and why - I invite anyone to do that and will be happy to dialogue about specifics; but if people insist on just dismissing broadly what i say without addressing specifics, that's just going to get them called out as a troll

[taai gihk yahn]

Oh! Wait! You mean HE is the Troll?

Whoa! Dude! I totally missed that! Boy! Do I feel dopey now!

what troll? there's a troll here? where? where?

[dirtyrat]

i had a friend who does yiquan. when he does his standing practice, he said depending on the posture, he has the "intent" of doing a certain movement, like raising his arms up for example, while holding still.

honestly, i still don't see the point. though i got the impression that it was a form of dynamic tension. holding still while having the intent of moving in the mind.

[PHILBERT]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1116351#post1116351

[Scott R. Brown]

as regards standing practice being the key to internal:

I personally believe that standing practice is of great benefit, for numerous reasons; based on my own study / practice, I see it, roughly, in 3 parts: awareness, balancing, transformation;

initially, standing is about building awareness of ur self - it teaches u about how ur weight is distributed (e.g. - more on one leg than another, more forward / backward on ur feet); how u align posturally in gravity (e.g. - do u overly accentuate ur spinal curves, or underexentuate them; do you displace ur thoracic cage over ur pelvis in alignment or not; is ur head too forward, etc.); where u hold tension inappropriately; and what the state of ur breath is; as a relatively static practice, it provides an opportunity to notice all of these things in a situation where there is a relatively decreased amount of afferent sensory input occurring, which enable u to pay attention to the things above more readily than if u were moving, even slowly like in a taiji form; it also helps u notice the manner in which ur mind functions - how thoughts enter and how u attach to them, how u loose ur immediate awareness of the above things;

after a while, things can begin to happen, which is the rebalancing phase: one of the main things that can occur is spontaneous movement; of this there r several types / qualities: people can experience shaking, swaying, or writhing types of movement; this can be due to both spontaneous muscular movement as the generator (also known as ideomotor activity), or other things - for example, when loaded in a certain manner over time, connective tissue can star to spontaneously "unwind", which means that the tension / compression oads in the CT will "cue" the muscular system to move in such a way that the CT tensions will start to work themselves out; this sort of movement can actually be extremely beneficial if one understands how to respond to it in context of standing practice - sometimes one needs to just "go with the flow", other times, one needs to actually concertedly maintain standing in relative neutral; over time, one changes the way one relates to gravity and the ground through the structure; also, one can experience various sorts of emotional changes during practice - things from the past can "come up" and one can have a wide range of feelings, sometimes swinging from one extreme to another - at this point, having a teacher who has gone through this phase is helpful; it is also at this point that the Taoist classics talk about spontaneous manifestation of sights and sounds, and how one should not get distracted by these phenommena; basically, if we r talking about a neuromusculoskeletal rebalancing, the neural part can result in stimulation of various visual / auditory cortices, resulting in the above mentioned manifestations; finally, one can experience various changes in the breath, where one can experience a wide range of breathing patterns that seem to change of their own accord without rhyme or reason; these and other things sign like temperature changes, r signs of the autonomic nervous system is rebalancing, or more specifically, moving from a chronic sympathetic to a more parasympathetic state (which is the phase within which tissue regeneration - healing - takes place); over time, the CT will also change, as fibroblasts start laying down new CT fibers in context of the improved alignment as opposed to aberrant force vectors that had previoully been sitting in the CT system, creating conflict and dysfunction;

the next stage, transformation, is what happens when one has a) full awareness of body / breath / mind and b) the various physical / emotional dysfunctions present in the system have been re-integrated to the degree that they no longer create undue strain on the system's ability to maintain a balanced autonomic system, and the drive towards homeostasis is optimized; this is the point where standing practice becomes transformative - where one can stand and instantly achieve integrated function of the breath and the postural system relative to the ground reaction force coming up from the earth through the legs, pelvis, spine and cranium - it's where u get that instantaneous feeling of being energized, a feeling of seemingly endless spaciousness throughout the joints and CT system, where the cranium seems to "bob" or be buoyant on top of the spine - at this point, one experiences a sense of global freedom, as well as manifestation of the so-called channels "opening" (it is at this pint that one completes the Orbital Circulations as well)

of course, all of the above is described classically in various Taoist treatises - it's just not delineated so explicitly, and of course much of the language is metaphorical, because at the time there was less understanding of human anatomy and physiology than there is now - nevertheless, the practice can be fully and validly articulated from a contemporary standpoint, which is useful in terms of contextualizing the practice for modern-day practitioners, as well as for doing away with the mysticism aspect that many people use to obfuscate rather than to reveal the simple, yet profound nature of something like standing practice

of course, there is much more: u can do all of the above lying down, sitting, or walking as well -(it's just slightly different in each case); then one can engage in various other practices, some alone, some w a partner to progress and refine this - these drils can b martial or nonmartial in nature;

finally, one can work with / teach others, which requires one to have a whole different level of understanding, especially if one is teaching this to people with clinical issues (which, as a PT, I have had much occasion to do, and have seen uniformly positive results in people with long standing histories of various dysfunctions;

but anyway, just my 2 cents based on my experience of standing practice...

addendum: this is the original topic of this thread, right? I mean, no one can accuse me of going OT now, right? of course, if anyone wants to say I know nothing about internal, and I'm sure they will , fine; but if they want to discount what I say, I hope that they will go through my post point by point and key specifically what is wrong and why - I invite anyone to do that and will be happy to dialogue about specifics; but if people insist on just dismissing broadly what i say without addressing specifics, that's just going to get them called out as a troll

I warned him, but he didn't listen. He is like a child you tell stay away from the stove or he'll get burned, but he HAS to keep pushing it and pushing it til he does.

[Scott R. Brown]

BTW, I doubt he'll understand a word you said Chris and it will be YOUR fault he's an idiot!:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

what troll? there's a troll here? where? where?

What? Who? Where? How?:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

I warned him, but he didn't listen. He is like a child you tell stay away from the stove or he'll get burned, but he HAS to keep pushing it and pushing it til he does.

honestly, I'm not even interested in him anymore - he spews the usual, party-line "internalist" pablum; guys like him are a dime a dozen: if u don't agree wholesale with what they say, then u know nothing, etc., etc.; as usual, there's no middle ground - it's all or nothing w them: when u don't agree w their perspective on "qi" and whatnot, when u propose a view that doesn't fit their view, then it's clear u just don't understand "qi" at all;

anyway, i posted my perspective on standing practice, as per the OP; if someone wants to speak to that, either agreeing or critiquing it, that's fine, i am happy to talk specifics with them; otherwise, it's just pointless

[taai gihk yahn]

i had a friend who does yiquan. when he does his standing practice, he said depending on the posture, he has the "intent" of doing a certain movement, like raising his arms up for example, while holding still.

honestly, i still don't see the point. though i got the impression that it was a form of dynamic tension. holding still while having the intent of moving in the mind.

when u "intend" a movement, there's a phenommenon called "pre-contraction", which is where u feel some increase in muscle tone of core stabilizers (e.g. - spinal mutifidi) in anticipation of movement; this correlates to something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex, which is where you have a complex of various postural stabilizers priming for contraction based upon what direction ur eyes look - which correlates directly to the taiji principle of 'yi ngan ling san" - with the eyes, lead the body - suggesting that within practice of taiji, an intuitive understanding arose of the above mentioned reflex;

so the "point" is very simple - it is one way to practice core stabilization, focusing specifically on the pre-contraction phase - this makes a great deal of sense, since we know that when u lack that pre-contraction, and many people do, ur core stabilization is less efficient, and therefore, u do more "work" with peripheral phasics (hamstrings, superficial fibers of psoas, quadratus umborum, latissimus etc.) rather than proximal tonic muscles (deep psoas, transverse abdominals, pelvic floor, multifidi etc), and as such, u do things more "externally", using peripheral muscles to do the job of the more "internal" core stabilizers; (of course, there is a correlation to harmony of pelvic diaphragm, respiratory diaphragm and cranial diaphragm function, relating to the classically described locations / functions of the three dan tiins / elixir fields...:eek:); of course, functionally, if u wish to operate "internaly" (using minimal force / effort to move an opponent), u have to operate out of an optimally efficient core stabilization strategy - otherwise u aren't connected from head to toe (and if u look at how multifidi run from one spinal level to another, u can immediately understand how when they function they connect the entire spine as a single functional unit - it's quite amazing, actually); the yi quan paradigm is to practice unifying the body / mind complex in an incremental manner - standing symetrically, then asymmetrically, then moving linearly, then moving non-linearly (diagonals), then working with partners, opponents, etc.

see, yet another example of how various aspects "internal" practice can be readily described via biomechanics and contemporary understanding of anatomy / physiology; essentially, it's objective validation of the subjective empirical knowledge underlying it; it DOESN"T have to be all or nothing / one or the other - to preach the exclusivity of internal practice is the equivalent of putting ur fingers in ur ears and going "lalalalalala" - just because one person cannot describe internal practice from a biomechanical / physiological perspective doesn't mean it cannot be done at all - I mean, it took me over 15 years to get to this point with a great deal of study of various areas of knowledge (biomechanics, physioilogy, complex systems, tensegrity, osteopathy, motor learning theory etc.) to get here, plus I had to put in the time actualy doing the standing practice so that I had a direct experience of all of these things (usually the direct experience came first - afterwards, i would go out and research what was underlying it);

knowledge needs must evolve; to deny this fundamental fact is to propogate ignorance; people need to open their minds and be wiling to acknowledge that the standard party lines don't hold true anymore, that we have entered into an age of synthetic integration...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.

Ah, no, that's not it.
And how the heck is no movement in a MA better than small movement?

[Dragonzbane76]

Pulling no punches I see TGY.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pulling no punches I see TGY.:)

One of the many reason that I stay here is because of guys like TGY.
After over 30 years in the MA, I still learn from guys like him.

[Scott R. Brown]

honestly, I'm not even interested in him anymore - he spews the usual, party-line "internalist" pablum; guys like him are a dime a dozen: if u don't agree wholesale with what they say, then u know nothing, etc., etc.; as usual, there's no middle ground - it's all or nothing w them: when u don't agree w their perspective on "qi" and whatnot, when u propose a view that doesn't fit their view, then it's clear u just don't understand "qi" at all;

anyway, i posted my perspective on standing practice, as per the OP; if someone wants to speak to that, either agreeing or critiquing it, that's fine, i am happy to talk specifics with them; otherwise, it's just pointless

Fine...I disagree with you, your Master, your Master's Master, your Master's Master's Master, and the Horses you all rode in on! But only because you didn't go into enough detail. Perhaps if you would actually be more specific you MIGHT be able to convince me......

.......which I KNOW is your first, foremost and ONLY prioity in life!!

Because THAT is the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger, that is, you keeping me entertained with EXcruciating detail!!!

Thank you.....and YOU are Welcome!

[wenshu]

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzsnXmKzEaM

[Scott R. Brown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzsnXmKzEaM

Okay........well.........except for Sinanju, which EVERYONE knows is the Sun Source of ALL Martial Arts!

[Eric Olson]

IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
Way longer.
One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
You should listen to the man.

Nice "appeal to authority"...look it up.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice "appeal to authority"...look it up.

EO

Considering that HIS appeal was to his so called authorities, it was quite appropriate.
Tit for tat.

[taai gihk yahn]

as regards the ORIGINAL post:

Eric makes an initial and valid proposition regarding standing meditation:

This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.

EJ responds with additional salient and, IMPE, an acutely accurate and useful comment:

it is not standing meditation, it is standing awareness, you concentrate actively and continuously on every part of your body while stand still and allow the internal pain to make you become aware of your external deficiency and correct them accordingly; only when there is external efficiency (being comfortable, free from pain and natural), can there be the seeds of internal accomplishment.

HW 108 rejoins in his usual quasi-crytic manner (by referring to something but not delineating specifics), but he does correctly identify the ontological progression of solo to partner training:

Yes, there is more to it, but you have hit the nail with Zhan Zhuang (standing) training, which can then be accompanied with specific, not so well known two men training.

Ozzy Dave contributes his personal experience, correctly identifying the aspect of training proprioceptors to establish "root", both statically (solo) and dynamically (resisted partner training):

Standing to me is primarily about proprioception, "creating a root" but what many fail to understand is that it must be tested in other forms of training and finally in non-compliant training with a partner.


HW108 then mentions correctly that standing practice involves more than just generation of root, which is also an excellent point;

I have been taught that Zhan Zhuang training goes far beyond creating roots. Roots are the first "benefit" of the training, but like so many things related to the relatively profound TCMAs, many practitioners do not go beyond the first step

so there was at least the potential for some productive discussion

of course, it was too good to be true, because then the thread got sidetracked by Robinhood playing the Internal Police:

There is a very clear difference between internal application and external application, if you don't think there is, then you are external person only thinking you have some internal.
If you have not done standing for years at a minimum, there is no way you no what internal is or could even begin to apply it.
So without the standing training, you are just external guys thinking there is no internal, or maybe hopping there is no internal or thinking your external training will develop internal too, it will not.
So saying what you think it is, just says you don`t know, because if you had it you would clearly know the difference!.

later posts by him are in a similar vein - his going on and on and on at length pointing out how everyone else doesn't understand internal, but offering no evidence as to why they do not, nor substantiating in any way what gives him the purview to make such claims;

so i tried asking him some specific questions about standing practice, in the hopes that he would supply some substance rather than broad dismissive statements without substantiation; however, he ignored me, instead citing my posts as proof that I knew nothing; this clearly revealed his trolling as such, and after I called him on his bluff, he seems to have disappeared...no real loss there...

I then made a series of posts regarding the ORIGINAL TOPIC of the thread, going into rather specific detail about my thoughts on standing practice, both from my own persona experience and from the perspectives of both classical Taoist practice and contemporary anatomy / physiology / biomechanics; furthermore, I commented on another post, offering my take on why "intention" can be relevant to standing practice a la yiquan; lastly, I invited commentary, positive or negative, to address the specific points I put forth, in order to generate productive discussion;

and what do we get here in response? nothing; not a peep; not a whisper; no real discussion at all on the topic;

what gives?

[Lucas]

TGY =

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/Trollslayer_cover.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

standing meditation

Standing doesn't have to do with "meditation". When you stand, you can develop:

- endurence,
- balance,
- flexibility.

When I stand in "燕子超水(Yan Zi Chao Shui) - Swallow skips water", there is no way that I can "meditate". :(

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6512/13taibo5.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Standing doesn't have to do with "meditation". When you stand, you can develop:

- endurence,
- balance,
- flexibility.

When I stand in "燕子超水(Yan Zi Chao Shui) - Swallow skips water", there is no way that I can "meditate". :(

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6512/13taibo5.jpg

perhaps ur sensibility of what constitutes meditation is different?

AFAIK, meditation can occur anywhere at anytime, at least from the perspective of Ch'an - meditation is the practice of "stopping and seeing", meaning that it is a pragmatic means of avoiding doing what most of us do in our daily lives: reacting out of habitual neurosis instead of responding with equanimity to a situation when we a challenged in someway; by this definition, it becomes relevant, as opposed to rarified: I mean, who cares how great of a meditator I am sitting on a cushion in a dimly lit room if once I come out of that room I am an asz hole to my wife and kids, right?

admittedly though, in the pic above, that might be harder - but then again, there are many yoga postures much more challenging to achieve and maintain, wherein meditation occurs...