Should San Shou be open to all competitors and styles?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Do you believe that TCMA tournaments that hold San Shou events should limit participation to only TCMA practioners or should any style be allowed to compete under these rules. Personnally I think it would go a long way to allow all styles to compete under San Shou instead of trying to make it strictly for Kung Fu. Thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

100% open to all.

[Mas Judt]

Yes.


Here are some extra words because the forum requires it: purple, monkey, majesty, whirlygig, amoeba, scrabble, Lord John Whorfin

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I know there are events that anyone can compete in San Shou but I have also heard of "closed" type events where San Shou competitors have to prove they come from a TCMA background. I think this is a negative approach and further alienates us Kung Fu practioners from the rest of the martial arts world. It also takes from us the opportunity to fight and learn by competing against competitors from other arts.

[ginosifu]

open to all styles !

ginosifu

[Lucas]

all styles!!!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

open to all styles !

ginosifu

Gino, at the Great Lakes tournie are you guys having forms and continuous sparring competitions again. Last time I was there is was only San Shou and Shuai Ciao?

[David Jamieson]

sure, why not? It has a rule set, so any style can enter, they just have to stay to the rule set and it's all good.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

sure, why not? It has a rule set, so any style can enter, they just have to stay to the rule set and it's all good.

True, but why is it certain organizations try to keep other styles or competitors out. I personally feel it betters one as a martial artist to be able to test yourself against other styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True, but why is it certain organizations try to keep other styles or competitors out. I personally feel it betters one as a martial artist to be able to test yourself against other styles.

Testing oneself VS OTHER systems is the only thing that keeps a system from becoming "inbreed" and obsolete.

[YouKnowWho]

True, but why is it certain organizations try to keep other styles or competitors out. I personally feel it betters one as a martial artist to be able to test yourself against other styles.
When you are not strong enough, sometime it's better to make youself strong first before open yourself up to face the outside challenge. When you are as strong as the US military, you can attack any country if you want to.

[ginosifu]

Gino, at the Great Lakes tournie are you guys having forms and continuous sparring competitions again. Last time I was there is was only San Shou and Shuai Ciao?

Yes we have everything form forms, weapon, push hands, continuous, Shuai Chiao and san shou.

Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don't come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?

Any other CMA tournament promoters see this?

ginosifu

[Ben Gash]

I've had this discussion before, and really if there was that big a demand for San Shou from non CMA corners there'd be a thriving shootboxing scene, which there clearly isn't.

[Lucas]

i think bawang has a good idea. fighting with bare knuckles on raised platform. with the world of mma, the only way to compete with that to draw a lot of attention is to up the ante so to speak. no pads at all, nice and hardcore. that will up the attention and the spectators, and when that demand for good solid NHB striking with throws is made, the people will flock to fight, just like ufc.

most people would much rather watch a couple of guys with tiny gloves beat each other bloody than some padded up guys with headgear on in a boxing ring.

get rid of the gloves, get rid of the ropes. then you will see people screaming for blood. once the masses scream for blood, you are there.

[Mike Patterson]

i think bawang has a good idea. fighting with bare knuckles on raised platform. with the world of mma, the only way to compete with that to draw a lot of attention is to up the ante so to speak. no pads at all, nice and hardcore. that will up the attention and the spectators, and when that demand for good solid NHB striking with throws is made, the people will flock to fight, just like ufc.

most people would much rather watch a couple of guys with tiny gloves beat each other bloody than some padded up guys with headgear on in a boxing ring.

get rid of the gloves, get rid of the ropes. then you will see people screaming for blood. once the masses scream for blood, you are there.

You make a valid point, Lucas.

The "problem" as the powers that be see it, is balancing realism with safety. And as a result of that, you'll probably never see bare knuckles. But maybe a minimal glove.

An amalgum pro structure, encompassing the best of SanShou, KuoShu and SanDa rule sets, with minimal safety gear and maximum utility could fit the bill. But only IF all the red tape hurdles could be cleared, enough money was thrown in to draw calibre fighters AND you could actually get those fighters to wander over and give it a try.

Imagine a structure that allowed standup technique with hand, foot, elbow and knee... grappling, throwing AND submission IF skillfully applied within, say, 5 to 10 seconds of hitting the ground.

Now THAT is something I would both pay to see and come out of retirement to be a part of! :)

[YouKnowWho]

It will be fun to have more than 2 fighters to fight in the ring at the same time that anybody is allowed to fight any others.

[Dragonzbane76]

Imagine a structure that allowed standup technique with hand, foot, elbow and knee... grappling, throwing AND submission IF skillfully applied within, say, 5 to 10 seconds of hitting the ground.
sounds like a good format to me.


Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don't come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?
haha I don't think they are scared. :)

most people probably think it's some kind of club thing honestly. Not understanding the elements involved probably is a factor. As Ironeagle stated some of it because of the traditional part of it. Some tournaments have a mandatory forms clause in them. If you don't do forms you can't compete. Not unheard of. people are always hesitant of the unknown. And most tournaments have an elites kind of feel to them. just my opinion.

[Paul T England]

Professional yes, amature? not sure...maybe we need amature, semi pro and pro as in MMA.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Professional yes, amature? not sure...maybe we need amature, semi pro and pro as in MMA.

Interesting idea. Take this idea along with what Sifu Patterson said and it could be a decent format.

Amateur- Head gear, 12oz boxing gloves, shin guards, all Kung Fu and kickboxing techniques along with throws, sweeps, takedowns, pretty much the standard San Shou rules. Three two minute rounds.

Semi Pro- Head gear, small gloves to cover hands (MMA type), shin guards, all San Shou rules except when fighters hit the ground they have 30 seconds to submit or strike. Three three minute rounds.

Pro- No head gear or shin guards, small gloves to cover hands. All San Shou rules except when fighters hit the ground they have 1 minute to submit or strike. Two five minute rounds, three five minute rounds for title matches.

All matches take place on a Lei Tai. Also all elbows and knees for Semi Pro and Pro, and well as kicking a downed opponent in Pro (old Pride rule)

The other option is to cut the time down when the fight hits the ground. The current MMA rules heavily favor grapplers, whereas this would more heavily favor strikers. Could make for some entertaining fights!

[David Jamieson]

True, but why is it certain organizations try to keep other styles or competitors out. I personally feel it betters one as a martial artist to be able to test yourself against other styles.

"certain" organizations can blow me. lol
Essentially that issue is what is known as "the face game" and it is truly the number one most retarded aspect of traditional martial arts.

Let the face gamers have their circle jerk and carry on without them.
Their kung fu sucks anyway and their lineage is meaningless as tehy have tainted them with the face game and the art has degraded because of it.

screw those guys.

now, ask me how I really feel about it. :p

[Ray Pina]

Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel.... the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.

The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don't.

As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.

I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn't fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It's nice to work the fence or ground.

Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other's are already there.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel.... the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.

The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don't.

As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.

I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn't fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It's nice to work the fence or ground.

Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other's are already there.

That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don't compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don't compete in MMA.

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.

[David Jamieson]

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, ...

But he will. That's his shtick. lol

[Ray Pina]

That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don't compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don't compete in MMA.

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.

I agree with you completely. And I'm not knocking Kung Fu for having Kung Fu competitions. As you said, everyone does it.

I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics.... if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.

Judo, kick boxing, BJJ and boxing... these have all revealed themselves to be useful, if not essential tools for MMA/higher levels of unarmed combat. The forum is already there and by its nature open to everything.

Kung Fu competing against Kung Fu will definitely improve the level of Kung Fu if they use a San Da/San Shou/full contact method. This should be standardized. And I would go so far as forming a TCMA Full Contact association in which schools can be members for only the years they sanctioned, competing fighters. That would differentiate schools right off the bat.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics.... if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.

Not sure if it would be so much bringing MMA to San Shou as just allowing other styles, MMA included, a chance to compete in San Shou. I am completely against the CMA organizations that try and keep other styles from competing in their venues, as I think it is cowardly and BS to say the least. I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.

Really you can break it down as testing one's set of skills. MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.

San Shou will never be as popular as MMA. Mostly because of the exposure MMA gets because of the UFC. Hell, no combat sport, not even boxing I don't think will ever be as popular now because of this. My point for this thread was to go aganist those CMA organizations that do not allow other styles to compete in San Shou, because it not only limits the competitors which in turn hurts the development of their own fighters but it also alienates the rest of the martial arts world from Kung Fu and CMA, which is not good for Kung Fu as a whole.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Popularity = what media forces down peoples throats.
He how controls the media, controls and dictates popularity.
Music is a prime example of this.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Popularity = what media forces down peoples throats.
He how controls the media, controls and dictates popularity.
Music is a prime example of this.

This. Think about where MMA was before the Fertita?? brothers and Dana White took over. They were all smart business men and marketed the hell out of it and made it mainstream through the media. If not for this, MMA would probably still be an underground sport with little to no backing.

It has been good for martial arts, except for the gazillion douchenozzles with TapOut shirts, sideways hats, and fake neck tattoos!!:D

[Ray Pina]

I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.

Those styles are all represented in MMA. MMA is not a style, it's a sport. A set of rules for a combat sport.


MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.

I agree and disagree with you here.

I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can't clobber the back of their head.... in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn't fair.

I appreciate long drown out ground games. It's each person's responsibility to improve their position.... that's regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands..... people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.

As for San Shou, I like it, but I don't like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage.... also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic..... MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.

If I would change anything, it would be to a single 20 min round format. If in 20 mins no one is KOed or tapped it's a draw.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn't like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don't like MMA.

[Ray Pina]

Definitely.

I've never been to an MMA show I wasn't fighting in.... I just don't like the crowd/scene. With that said, I don't like most crowds/scenes.

It's not much different than football or any male entertainment: t!ts, beer, cars, explosions, bad movies.

.... but it gives young athletes an opportunity to make a living at a sport they love. There's some money now.

Don't really get a great vibe from Dana White but sometimes he seems OK, like a good guy.... got to give him credit. He saw the potential, stuck through with it when it was outlawed and locked it down.

[David Jamieson]

I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn't like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don't like MMA.

I like mma.

It's the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it's fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.

at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn't matter what the art.

[ginosifu]

I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can't clobber the back of their head.... in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn't fair.

I appreciate long drown out ground games. It's each person's responsibility to improve their position.... that's regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands..... people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.

As for San Shou, I like it, but I don't like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage.... also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic..... MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.

Ray, I disagree with your statement that MMA only slightly favors Grapplers. In fact the whole cage idea is to prevent moving around and stand up fighting. The idea that MMA more accurately depicts a real fight is something I would disagree with as well.

Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be. What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone? Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by? No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.

MMA is definately brutal and a hardcore slug fest. I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time, I do see some good skillful peeps out there that are trying hard to be good fighter.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

I like mma.

It's the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it's fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.

at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn't matter what the art.
What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent's face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to

- sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
- turned my back on my opponent, and
- predented that I had just done something terrible wrong. :(

[Fa Xing]

What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always punched on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

This is something I have also always disliked, although I can imagine that it is very not express your joy of winning something you've worked so hard to achieve. However, I have grown up studying Eastern spiritual/religious traditions which teach people to show humility in victory after defeating an opponent(s).

[Golden Arms]

San Shou is an open format, its a set of rules that anyone can fight under. I have only fought in a few fights where it was set up to favor members of the organization for some reason other than them wanting you to join to give them some income (like it or not any competitive venue is likely going to be controlled by money as it grows).

The funny thing to me is that in the 7 years of San Shou fighting that I did, I only fought members of Chinese martial arts schools about 20% of the time, and much of that was in the first 2 years. Chinese schools by and large do not appear to fight much.

A good method seems to be to offer Judo/BJJ, Pancration/MMA of some sort, kickboxing or continuous stand up sparring with heavy contact, and San Shou all at the same event. That way there is some cross over, the people that want to fight can fight in multiple venues and there are more bodies.

Having been on the judging/ref side of things a few times I see why that doesnt usually work out as well though. Finding people that will judge or ref honestly (or even volunteer) is difficult, and money is usually tight.

[Ray Pina]

Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be.

1) a ring is a closed off space just like a cage. A cage allows action to continue where in a ring a person can fall through the ropes. You can also push off a cage.

2) A fight will go where the fighters take it. I've seen many street fights go to the ground. I almost want to say most but won't.



What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone?
Then they'll be fighting multiple people over glass.... is this a San Shou specialty?



Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by?

It would depend on the situation. But grabbing a first guy and controlling him into the other might be a better option than duking it out.



No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.
31 seconds into this video you'll see guard and then it being passed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp-rZfPcJ1k&feature=related

These entire series of YouTube street fight videos will without a doubt show fights wind up on the ground.


I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time,
It's usually the strongest, best shape guy who dominates any athletic endeavor....which is why conditioning/circuit training is a crucial aspect for anyone fighting.

The guy who conditions more, spars more, rolls more, heavy bags more, etc., etc., etc.... becomes strong and skilled. Everyone you see fighting in the UFC is that guy: a dedicated, hard training fighter. They are not muscle heads they pulled from body building competitions. Their level of martial arts is much higher than ours.

[Ray Pina]

What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent's face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to

- sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
- turned my back on my opponent, and
- predented that I had just done something terrible wrong. :(

The difference is that these men are dealing with a greater level of emotion because they're not facing "maybe get a bloody nose" in a no contact fight.They made an appointment to fight a professional for their career. A lot is at stake for these men.... including their well being. They're pumped full of adrenaline after laying it all on the line... they're celebrating a victory. Or even just finishing uninjured. ..... its not an easy thing to do. Or more people here would do it.

[Lucas]

well in regards to multiple people and real fights with grappling. if you were to fight me and my friend (thats just two people, imagine 4 or 5 where conflict actually does break out and all the guys want you down badly) and you even clinched with him, you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over. if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. show me one vid of a guy fighting at least two people and going to the ground looking for side control/ mount or what have you. ground fighting is not realistic in multiple person encounters. it just isnt. the most you would want to grapple is if you are forced by being engaged, or if you are using light grappling with constant mobility to dictate the movement of one person to shield you from another.

but then that only works if its 2 people. if you have 3 people, one will always be behind you. for real

[YouKnowWho]

if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this.

This is my concern about the current MMA. The "mobility training - always ready to take off" is not emphasised. If you ever got into any gang fight, you should know that when cops come, you should take off ASAP.

[mjw]

Yes we have everything form forms, weapon, push hands, continuous, Shuai Chiao and san shou.

Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don't come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?

Any other CMA tournament promoters see this?

ginosifu

I don't know how it turned out but I once saw a 2 flyer type event that pushed Kungfu/tai chi forms then said they would then be doing point sparring with such and such karate not sure how it turned out though something like that might attract the other styles.....who knows.


I also say keep it open to all styles thats how you learn most in competition I would say.

[Ray Pina]

well in regards to multiple people and real fights with grappling. if you were to fight me and my friend (thats just two people, imagine 4 or 5 where conflict actually does break out and all the guys want you down badly) and you even clinched with him, you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over. if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. show me one vid of a guy fighting at least two people and going to the ground looking for side control/ mount or what have you. ground fighting is not realistic in multiple person encounters. it just isnt. the most you would want to grapple is if you are forced by being engaged, or if you are using light grappling with constant mobility to dictate the movement of one person to shield you from another.

but then that only works if its 2 people. if you have 3 people, one will always be behind you. for real

I just don't understand what the hell you're asking of me.... is it that I think it's a good idea to grapple with one guy on the ground while his five friends stand over me and give me a boot massage? ..... no, I don't think that's a good idea.

I'm a gringo living in Puerto Rico. Thank God everything is cool, but I got jumped twice within the first six months of living here. The second time by at least 15 people. Two with guns.... that's because I got lucky and took a pipe from one guy and his two friends a week before. That left me with a scar on my leg to today.

I really don't know how many people there were the second time because I ran to my truck, drove home, locked myself in, got a machete and am embarrassed to say called the cops! (I didn't call the cops after the first episode).

Home invasions are a neighborhood reality where I live now. Thus my new acute focus on firearms.

I don't fight. I don't go out. When I do, it's with my fiance to dinner. Being an American here, I can't hit anyone ever ... everyone's got a crazy cousin who will shoot you.

If I have to fight, thank God I recognize most major positions. Have trained them enough to know how to improve my position, the most likely reactions the other will use to counter....thank God I trained those positions with team mates I could trust, who are competitive and gave me their best. Thank God I competed for stakes against strangers who could care less about me.... I learned how to endure.

That's all I can hope for if I ever face another violent encounter.

If I was talking to somebody about sport fighting today, a young martial artist who thinks he got game, I'd tell him: "Stop being a pu$$y and go fight in the UFC."

And UFC would just generically mean go put yourself to that test. Go fight with these guys who want to go fight.... then you'll see.

I come down on TCMA, but if you're really fighting San Shou, than you are one of those guys. I've never trained San Shou, but I've competed. I've seen the other guys working the mitts. Those guys are real fighters.

But because I'm a pain in the a$$ I'd tell them they should go fight in MMA.... at least once. I also tell boogie borders they should stop dragging their co(ks in the water and stand up like a man.

Joking aside. If a San Shou guy is going MMA.... if he doesn't train BJJ he will soon. BJJ is now mandatory assignment for all martial artists.

OK. Too much writing when I should be work writing.... jogging. eating. vapor balloons and back to work.

[Lucas]

im not asking anything of you. its just my habbit to post my thoughts as i read threads. i have computer/internet access at work and often start posting then forget then come back to it, and most times my train of thought is broken so i just continue rambling on with what ever it looked like my original thought was. ive been jumped a couple times in my life too, it sucks, one ended with me taking a severe beating with no option but to get beaten. sucks balls

[hskwarrior]

you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over


It doesn't matter how much ground game you have. and with 4-5 guys trying to get you, there won't be any choking. He will get blind sided, drop to the ground and the pounding, kicking, and perhaps striking with items......then he's done for.

[hskwarrior]

vapor balloons

What is in your vapor balloon? and is it sticky green? :D

[YouKnowWho]

im not asking anything of you. its just my habbit to post my thoughts as i read threads. i have computer/internet access at work and often start posting then forget then come back to it, and most times my train of thought is broken so i just continue rambling on with what ever it looked like my original thought was. ive been jumped a couple times in my life too, it sucks, one ended with me taking a severe beating with no option but to get beaten. sucks balls

That was my idea. In one of my student's school, he always puts 3 guys into the ring and fight against each other. I do think one can develop some useful experience that way - mobility, alert, use one opponent to jam another opponent, ...

[Dragonzbane76]

if you got 3 or 4 guys on you I don't care what you specialize in grappling/stand up/clinch your toast. You cannot fight that many people I don't care what secret tech. some buddist master taught you, your going down and there is nothing you can do about it. The best you can do is run away before they get you cornered. Hopefully you are faster.

best defense in that sit. would be a gun. Equalize things out a bit.

[hskwarrior]

if you got 3 or 4 guys on you I don't care what you specialize in grappling/stand up/clinch your toast. You cannot fight that many people I don't care what secret tech. some buddist master taught you, your going down and there is nothing you can do about it. The best you can do is run away before they get you cornered. Hopefully you are faster.

best defense in that sit. would be a gun. Equalize things out a bit.

If you can't run, i feel the best bet is to keep on the move and try not to be caught in a position where they are all around you. try to keep them in front. still this is a situation where if you have to stay and fight.....FIGHT YOUR ASS OFF.....it can be done. lets not forget that one guy in a video sticking and moving on i think more than five guys

Still, the one thing about San Shou that works on the street nicely is body slams and throws.

Sparring multiple people at the same time is a good method that works if you are in a situation with 3-4 guys surrounding you. the more you do it, the better you get. This is what saved my student when he got surrounded by 5 guys with knives and screw drivers. he told me our training helped out alot.

[Lucas]

That was my idea. In one of my student's school, he always puts 3 guys into the ring and fight against each other. I do think one can develop some useful experience that way - mobility, alert, use one opponent to jam another opponent, ...

its fun stuff. in my old kungfu school we used to form a ring with one guy in the center and you start sparring 1 guy, break then 2 then 3 then 4 at a certain point all you can do is try and move and shield, you cant 'win', especially not in that scenario, but it does help you to find avenues of escape when several people are trying to get to you. you cant learn to swim by looking at the water.

[Dragonzbane76]

learn to shot a gun. You would be suprised the effect it has when you pull one out. People seem to stop and take you seriously at that point. a group of 3-4-5 people see a gun pulled when they have someone cornered will think twice before rushing in.

[Lucas]

learn to shot a gun. You would be suprised the effect it has when you pull one out. People seem to stop and take you seriously at that point. a group of 3-4-5 people see a gun pulled when they have someone cornered will think twice before rushing in.

qft. " god made man but samuel colt made them equal"?

[YouKnowWho]

learn to shot a gun.

The firearm may not be available in many parts of the world. In Taiwan, when I was young, onetime I carried an aluminum sword (very shining but breakable) in a group fight and it scared a lot of people away.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Those styles are all represented in MMA. MMA is not a style, it's a sport. A set of rules for a combat sport.




I agree and disagree with you here.

I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can't clobber the back of their head.... in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn't fair.

I appreciate long drown out ground games. It's each person's responsibility to improve their position.... that's regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands..... people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.

As for San Shou, I like it, but I don't like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage.... also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic..... MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.

If I would change anything, it would be to a single 20 min round format. If in 20 mins no one is KOed or tapped it's a draw.

MMA is going more towards becoming a "style" itself with the emergence of gyms which teach MMA or freestyle, basically focusing on striking, clinch, and groundwork. Honestyly it is semantics to argue style anyway, one's own method of fighting can be considered a style.


It's all about situational training man. A San Shou guy may or may not do well in MMA, it depends on him, the guy he is fighting, and how well his takedown defense is. But again there are those, myself included, who are not interested in competing in MMA and would rather do San Shou, it's all in preference man. Remember, a San Shou guy with no training in submissions would most likely not fare well in a BJJ tournament, however, a BJJ guy with only BJJ would likely not fare well in a San Shou tournament.

As for the issue of street fighting, no matter what you want to do you still could likely end up on the ground. Personally I would rather clinch, get head control, reign some knees, and dump the f**ucker on his head and move on to his buddy if it is multiple opponents, but that's just me. Fighting multiple opponents is always a losing battle, better to get out of that situation by all means if possible.

[Dragonzbane76]

The firearm may not be available in many parts of the world. In Taiwan, when I was young, onetime I carried an aluminum sword (very shining but breakable) in a group fight and it scared a lot of people away.

in the u.s. any crazy can own a gun :p

but i understand your point.

[Ray Pina]

i have computer/internet access at work and often start posting then forget then come back to it

I know.... I blew a good portion of my work day talking smack here when I should be writing.

[Ray Pina]

That was my idea. In one of my student's school, he always puts 3 guys into the ring and fight against each other. I do think one can develop some useful experience that way - mobility, alert, use one opponent to jam another opponent, ...

A fun game we play sometimes goes like this:

one man is IT


He takes down someone, they are both IT

They take more people down. By themselves or together.

You start off actually attacking a crowd..... in the end, the last man is avoiding, fighting off the whole room.

You can play just grabs, throws and tackles, sweeps, etc.

Or you can play with boxing gloves too.

Good training. Fun.

[Ray Pina]

The firearm may not be available in many parts of the world. In Taiwan, when I was young, onetime I carried an aluminum sword (very shining but breakable) in a group fight and it scared a lot of people away.

Awesome!:)

[Hardwork108]

Do you believe that TCMA tournaments that hold San Shou events should limit participation to only TCMA practioners or should any style be allowed to compete under these rules. Personnally I think it would go a long way to allow all styles to compete under San Shou instead of trying to make it strictly for Kung Fu. Thoughts?

I agree with you 100% (and that is what is so frightening! :eek:)!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I agree with you 100% (and that is what is so frightening! :eek:)!

It's ok, your transformation to the dark side is nearly complete!!:p

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gfXupHOEhH0/S-xbGuqsonI/AAAAAAAAREg/-GPrM0umlhk/s1600/darth-vader-face.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

San Shou is an open format, its a set of rules that anyone can fight under. I have only fought in a few fights where it was set up to favor members of the organization for some reason other than them wanting you to join to give them some income (like it or not any competitive venue is likely going to be controlled by money as it grows).

The funny thing to me is that in the 7 years of San Shou fighting that I did, I only fought members of Chinese martial arts schools about 20% of the time, and much of that was in the first 2 years. Chinese schools by and large do not appear to fight much.

A good method seems to be to offer Judo/BJJ, Pancration/MMA of some sort, kickboxing or continuous stand up sparring with heavy contact, and San Shou all at the same event. That way there is some cross over, the people that want to fight can fight in multiple venues and there are more bodies.

Having been on the judging/ref side of things a few times I see why that doesnt usually work out as well though. Finding people that will judge or ref honestly (or even volunteer) is difficult, and money is usually tight.

Thanks for your insight, GA, interesting to say the least. The great thing about San Shou is it is a format that allows pretty much any stand up style or grappling and throwing style (wrestling and judo) to compete. Again it depends on perspective as there are competitors who have little interest in doing MMA but enjoy kickboxing and San Shou because of the emphasis on stand up.

[Ray Pina]

The great thing about San Shou is it is a format that allows pretty much any stand up style or grappling and throwing style (wrestling and judo) to compete.

Yes, but they can't apply their craft on the ground.

I don't know what to consider myself these days. I certainly like to knock people down but I've come to appreciate transitions to single and double legs..... with that said, I finish from side control. That's my game. Either ground and pound or work an American/Kimora.

I'll improve position and take advantage of opportunities arising, but generally that's my game plan.

There's as much space for that in San Shou as there is in a TKD tournament. We can all join a TKD tournament, too. But then we can't punch the head, can't capture kicks, ect.

MMA has its rules too which are limiting. But they're the rules with the widest birth that we have today. And they're pretty fair and balanced well to protect fighters and ensure action.

With that said, and this goes to the multiple guys over glass crowd, there is Vale Tudo outside of the U.S. You can poke eyes, pinch, do what you like..... TCMA is not represented there either.

Earlier I was accused of using a double standard. But in actuality, it's the reverse. Karate, TKD, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai boxing, wester kick boxing, BJJ, Judo, pancreation, Freestyle..... all of these styles have been effective in the UFC. But the rules don't favor Kung Fu? Which is supposed to have been the foundation for all of these others?

[Dragonzbane76]

Ray, how bout if they added a 30 second rule for ground work to it? After the time comes up unless a sub has been applied they stand them up.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Yes, but they can't apply their craft on the ground.

And most BJJ purists couldn't strike their way out of a wet paper bag. Dude, if you can't see the double standard your creating, I don't know what to tell you.:confused:

Also, Cung Le, the great savior to San Shou and Kung Fu as he has been called:D
I feel gets very little respect in the way of MMA. Why is it most MMA folks always find an excuse to why Cung wins. They like to say he beat to "lesser guys" or "low caliber" fighters, yet most of the guys he beat had backgrounds and trained in BJJ, yet he was able to use his San Shou and wrestling skills to beat them. I am by no means saying Cung has beaten the best guys or that he is a contender, especially at his age now, but no one ever gives him or San Shou any credit for being successful in MMA.

The point I am trying to make and you don't seem to understand is that there are fighters out there who could careless about MMA and do not want to compete in it. It is great that you love BJJ and it is hands down the best style to learn how to ground fight and submit, but even it has it's flaws and weaknesses. All styles and systems do, and most fighters have specialities or areas of fighting they are best at. MMA fighters are usually the most well rounded but like I said MMA is not everyone's cup of tea.

[Ray Pina]

And most BJJ purists couldn't strike their way out of a wet paper bag. Dude, if you can't see the double standard your creating, I don't know what to tell you.:confused:

I honestly don't see a double standard it letting everyone do what they want. By negating an entire range of fighting, ground fighting, you're dumbing down the forum instead of forcing advancement.



Also, Cung Le, the great savior to San Shou and Kung Fu as he has been called:D
I feel gets very little respect in the way of MMA. Why is it most MMA folks always find an excuse to why Cung wins. They like to say he beat to "lesser guys" or "low caliber" fighters, yet most of the guys he beat had backgrounds and trained in BJJ, yet he was able to use his San Shou and wrestling skills to beat them. I am by no means saying Cung has beaten the best guys or that he is a contender, especially at his age now, but no one ever gives him or San Shou any credit for being successful in MMA.
I think Cung Le is a great fighter and respect him tremendously. I think he gets respect from other fighters simply because he has proven himself. It's unfortunate he gets dragged into the middle of these discussions.

With that said, Cung Lee was a god of San Shou, he has not risen to that level of MMA. Michael Jordan was amazing in basketball, didn't do much in baseball. The credit is where credit is due.


there are fighters out there who could careless about MMA and do not want to compete in it. It is great that you love BJJ and it is hands down the best style to learn how to ground fight and submit, but even it has it's flaws and weaknesses. All styles and systems do, and most fighters have specialities or areas of fighting they are best at. MMA fighters are usually the most well rounded but like I said MMA is not everyone's cup of tea.

You are preaching to the choir.

First and foremost, I would say martial arts have been over populated. The decades of forms and Paul Mitchell contest and now Wushu has attracted too many people with no desire to sacrifice to truly learn defensive/offensive methods. So from that standpoint, martial arts has become fragmented with fighters and non fighters. With many more non fighters.

Now for fighters, there are those that want to punch, kick and punch, kick and punch and throw, and kick and punch and throw and fight on the ground. None are right and none are wrong but some are more comprehensive than others..... fighting forums allowing more positions and technique are more comprehensive.

If the original question was, should Kung Fu allow other styles to compete..... It should be flipped. Kung Fu needs to go out, not invite others in. San Shou is a great platform but it should be a stepping stone to MMA if TCMA ever wants to integrate with all the other styles that can perform there.

Saying it's not ones cup of tea is a cop out..... one trains for 10 years and opens a school and teaches others martial arts but has never been punched in the nose because it "wasn't their cup of tea?"

I say this collectively, not individually. There will always be people too busy, not physically equipped or mentally equipped to train for and to participate in combat sports.... own your state of being and accept it. Don't alter reality to a state where there's masters of martial arts who have zero combat experience.

Don't want to fight? Fine. But can you see the ridiculousness of these people professing the need for hours of form as part of their combat training but never strap on gloves? Its not much different to say "ground fighting is gay" and never learn to own the situation.

In this instance, it appears TCMA is asking for a double standard because it's not producing a sustainable number of stylists to participate in MMA.

How many posters in this thread alone have even competed in sanctioned San Shou or kick boxing?

[Ray Pina]

Ray, how bout if they added a 30 second rule for ground work to it? After the time comes up unless a sub has been applied they stand them up.

Better. But you're still not forcing people to solve the problem they face.... I don't like it when they stand people back up in the UFC. I also don't like rounds.

This is 100% for the fans sitting on their ass. If you work someone well and have them in side control.... just holding that position is an advantage. You're forcing them to carry your weight. You're shouldering their head into the floor. You're constantly making them expend energy just to prevent a worse situation.... eventually their cardio or structure gives.

Let the people fight and let the fight go where they take it then you don't have to worry about ifs and buts.

[Dragonzbane76]

I agee ray but most people dont want to pay to watch that. I love ground work myself i could watch a whole match that goes entirely to the ground. The people whom find that boring do nnot understand the small intracies involved in developing that ground work.

People want fast paced action. People who sit on their ass and yell they could beat anyones ass in the cage. They are the arm chair warriors that pay the bills.

But we wane away from the topic. I think that if san shou would add that rule it would add another element and be more inclusive for other styles participating.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I honestly don't see a double standard it letting everyone do what they want. By negating an entire range of fighting, ground fighting, you're dumbing down the forum instead of forcing advancement.

You still don't what I'm saying. BJJ purists who don't train striking fall under the same category.


I think Cung Le is a great fighter and respect him tremendously. I think he gets respect from other fighters simply because he has proven himself. It's unfortunate he gets dragged into the middle of these discussions.

With that said, Cung Lee was a god of San Shou, he has not risen to that level of MMA. Michael Jordan was amazing in basketball, didn't do much in baseball. The credit is where credit is due.

How is using an example of a succesful San Shou fighter who transitioned to MMA successfully "dragging him into it". You wanted proof of San Shou fighters in MMA, Cung is the most prominent one.


You are preaching to the choir.

First and foremost, I would say martial arts have been over populated. The decades of forms and Paul Mitchell contest and now Wushu has attracted too many people with no desire to sacrifice to truly learn defensive/offensive methods. So from that standpoint, martial arts has become fragmented with fighters and non fighters. With many more non fighters.

Now for fighters, there are those that want to punch, kick and punch, kick and punch and throw, and kick and punch and throw and fight on the ground. None are right and none are wrong but some are more comprehensive than others..... fighting forums allowing more positions and technique are more comprehensive.

If the original question was, should Kung Fu allow other styles to compete..... It should be flipped. Kung Fu needs to go out, not invite others in. San Shou is a great platform but it should be a stepping stone to MMA if TCMA ever wants to integrate with all the other styles that can perform there.

Saying it's not ones cup of tea is a cop out..... one trains for 10 years and opens a school and teaches others martial arts but has never been punched in the nose because it "wasn't their cup of tea?"

I say this collectively, not individually. There will always be people too busy, not physically equipped or mentally equipped to train for and to participate in combat sports.... own your state of being and accept it. Don't alter reality to a state where there's masters of martial arts who have zero combat experience.

Don't want to fight? Fine. But can you see the ridiculousness of these people professing the need for hours of form as part of their combat training but never strap on gloves? Its not much different to say "ground fighting is gay" and never learn to own the situation.

In this instance, it appears TCMA is asking for a double standard because it's not producing a sustainable number of stylists to participate in MMA.

How many posters in this thread alone have even competed in sanctioned San Shou or kick boxing?

Ray, I really don't know what to say about the tangent here other than form fairies will be that and Kung Fu fighters will be that. I don't argue that there is a lot of crap that makes Kung Fu look bad but the discussion at hand was actually AGAINST CMA organizations that did not let others compete in their venue because of fear or stubborness, when in fact that would actually gain more exposure for San Shou and in turn Kung Fu. Also, guys who fight in MMA are MMA fighters, period. Do you see any pure boxers, (James Toney did real well), Muay Thai, Karate, or whatever other example you used. All MMA competitors are mixed martial artists.

I don't completely disagree with you and in fact there are many thing you say I agree with, but this is not one of them. Kung Fu owes nothing to MMA and vice versa.

[Ray Pina]

BJJ purists who don't train striking aren't exactly in the same boat because they have developed real skills against full resistance. Growing up, one of the best fighters I knew was the local H.S. wrestling captain.... not surprisingly, when he had guys tied up on the ground he didn't need detailed instruction on how to smash them. He was comfortable fighting and developed strong muscles for specific tasks as well as balance, coordination, etc. The difference is resistance.

However, I will ceed to you that there are little crawl-up-into-a-ball or hold turtle types (usually those with less than 2.5 years experience) who will snicker or whine over the occasional errant elbow or knee that grazes them..... these guys will improve and learn to deal with it or they will drop the sport. At the most the coach will cater to them by asking people rolling with them to tone it down. But the entire structure of training doesn't change because little Johnny doesn't like to pay rough.

And you are right, Kung Fu owes nothing to MMA or anything else. In fact, there is no "Kung Fu." It's martial arts. Every martial artist, by the nature of what it means to forge oneself as a martial artist, owes it to themselves to train beyond their capabilities. To constantly set far reaching goals, surpass them and continue on.

You learn important lessons going the form route: that dedicated practice to a particular subject will yield positive results. You learn that and a whole other set of deep, internalized lessons about yourself, human nature, will, the maintenance of the body as a machine pursuing what I believe is the goal of martial arts: proficiency at violent opposition.

It's true that by nature, MMAers practice several arts. Personally, I break it down to grappling and striking. I have coaches that train boxing and kick boxing. I have a coach for BJJ and wrestling. I maintain things I learned elsewhere that are of value to me and train them when I have the privilege of a student.

As someone who has been on both the teaching and learning side of martial arts and "Kung Fu" though, it strikes me as odd that more TCMA practitioners don't concern themselves with: why hasn't TCMA been incorporated into MMA like most every other style and Why aren't more TCMAers successfully incorporating other styles and competing in MMA?

The answer I came up with is that fighters aren't attracted to TCMA. And those that were and wish to fight competitively will ultimately be drawn to MMA.

Realistically, all martial systems are MMA to begin with. It's just where they decided to put their focus. Now the focus has gone back to combat and certain basic skills have become obviously mandatory:

smooth and crisp but heavy striking
Someone who can combine kicks and punches has an advantage over a pure puncher
Understanding of the clinch game (under hooks, over hooks)
Takedowns (throws, picks, sweeps, etc) and the defense to them
Ground game
set ups
angles
level changes
command of space

All of these need to be trained with resistance at some point. It's always been brought up that not everyone wants to fight. But in every boxing gym I was at, the goal was to get you to the ring from day one. Whether you go compete or not is up to you, but you train the same way as everyone else. You're doing your sparring in the ring.

Where I train BJJ, everyone competes. EVERYONE.

I don't know of any 10 year boxers or BJJ who haven't competed. If you're not down to play rough in those games you don't last.... TCMA has created a panzy loop hole. Where you can be a master because you twirl a baton. This is the problem that suffers TCMA. And its why people get so in a tizzy here. Because in there heart they know its true.

[Lucas]

TCMA has created a panzy loop hole. Where you can be a master because you twirl a baton. This is the problem that suffers TCMA.

lol funny but also true in many instances.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol funny but also true in many instances.

In my view the problem in too many TMA is the reliance on "what was before" as opposed to "what is now".
Too much " a master of our system did this" or "my teacher can do this" or crap liek that and not enough on what "YOU" can do.
Too much anecdotal stories of years gone by and not enough doing RIGHT NOW.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would also say that TCMA tournaments promote too much on forms competitions and not enough fighting competitions. I honestly think form competition is the worst.

Think about this, you go out and perform a form and try to impress the judges, who often times may be from another system and don't even know the form. Instead of showing strong technique, good stance work and good transition it turns into who can do the most carthwheel and spinning wheel kicks.:mad:

TCMA who promote more San Shou and Shuai Jiao and less forms would be a big improvement. The other day I emailed the ICMA because I saw they now have a tournament in Pittsburgh which is close to me. But after checking the results from the previous year it said nothing about San Shou or Shuai Jiao, even though it list these events on the website http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/

I just wish San Shou and Shuai Jiao were the emphasis and not the back burner for these kind of tournaments.

[Dragonzbane76]

In my view the problem in too many TMA is the reliance on "what was before" as opposed to "what is now".
Too much " a master of our system did this" or "my teacher can do this" or crap liek that and not enough on what "YOU" can do.
Too much anecdotal stories of years gone by and not enough doing RIGHT NOW.

you have to venture outside your comfort circle to gain that. Taking what you learned or saw and trying it yourself even though it's awkward and hard. Testing what you have is probably the biggest lesson you can learn. Not worrying about what someone else is doing but doing what you are doing.

[Frost]

On this thread we have the following arguments and points being raised,
1) MMA favours grapplers,
2) MMA favours big strong athletes and not skilled fighters, there’s no skill
And my personal favourite the street arguments
3a) try subbing someone in a street fight and watch his mates kick your back in,
3b) watch how you get sliced up from all the glass on the ground
3c) don’t grapple multiple opponents stick and move baby that the way to go
Not to mention
4) I would like MMA but the fighters show no respect argument, TCMA guys are much more respectful


Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

On this thread we have the following arguments and points being raised,
1) MMA favours grapplers,
2) MMA favours big strong athletes and not skilled fighters, there’s no skill
And my personal favourite the street arguments
3a) try subbing someone in a street fight and watch his mates kick your back in,
3b) watch how you get sliced up from all the glass on the ground
3c) don’t grapple multiple opponents stick and move baby that the way to go
Not to mention
4) I would like MMA but the fighters show no respect argument, TCMA guys are much more respectful


Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/Minoccio/Movie%20Blog/GroundhogDay.jpg

[pateticorecords]

Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?

Sure feels like it... every discussion ends in the same argument. Funny, this was no different back in the 70s, 80s, 90s... whatever was popular paled in comparison to what was the "it" thing to practice. Can't wait until the next movement... boxing-kickboxing-bjj-high wire-***** swinging-blind folded full contact fighting 50 feet in the air :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember that day when I spent most of it naked with two sexy female co-eds and did things that are illegal in most southern states, why can't I have that day over and over again?
:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I remember that day when I spent most of it naked with two sexy female co-eds and did things that are illegal in most southern states, why can't I have that day over and over again?
:D

Be truthful, was it this:

http://www.cheaphumor.com/files/piks/AlabamaCrimsonettes.jpg

Or this:

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000740235/polls_obese_woman_4445_761194_poll_xlarge.jpeg

[pateticorecords]

I remember that day when I spent most of it naked with two sexy female co-eds and did things that are illegal in most southern states, why can't I have that day over and over again?
:D lol.... as long as you don't get caught;)

[ginosifu]

I would also say that TCMA tournaments promote too much on forms competitions and not enough fighting competitions. I honestly think form competition is the worst.
I just wish San Shou and Shuai Jiao were the emphasis and not the back burner for these kind of tournaments.

My teacher and myself would rather do just San Shou, Shuai Chiao and even continuous light contact maybe, but we probably could not keep a float if we did not have the forms and weapon divisions.

On a whole the people who like to San Shou, Shuai Chiao, MMA, BJJ , Judo etc etc are a smaller percentage of people that are in the entire MA circle. All Martial Arts are more like a 70% / 30% and the fighters are the 30%.

Our modern society has softened everyone and let them believe that fighting and MA is barbaric. So the McDojo's have stepped up and took MA and turned it into a "Performance / Gymnastic Art instead of a "Fighting Art". That's why everyone is riding this Forms Train.

I wish it was different.....

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

Some TCMA tournaments even have "horse stance" competation. I assume whoever can stand the longest will be the winner.

[wenshu]

Why can't everyone just admit that a half naked man lying practically motionless on top of another half naked man while he squirms underneath you in your commingled bodily fluids is simply the most pragmatically elite, unstoppable, entertaining and dominant fighting technique in the history of the universe x3.

What do you mean it's boring to watch? You obviously are too obtuse to understand all the intricacies, the chess game if you will. Profound subtleties such as is the dominant fighter (the top) semi-hard or fully hard when he mounts his submissive, er I mean, bottom, wait --

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4645/jiujitsu.jpg

[hskwarrior]

Some TCMA tournaments even have "horse stance" competation. I assume whoever can stand the longest will be the winner.

No way! are you serious?

[hskwarrior]

What do you mean it's boring to watch? You obviously are too obtuse to understand all the intricacies, the chess game if you will. Profound subtleties such as is the dominant fighter (the top) semi-hard or fully hard when he mounts his submissive, er I mean, bottom, wait --

its not so boring. i just wish they had more clothes on hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

No way! are you serious?

It was a Baltimore Kung Fu Tournament many years ago. I brought many students to that tournament.

[YouKnowWho]

its fun stuff. in my old kungfu school we used to form a ring with one guy in the center and you start sparring 1 guy, break then 2 then 3 then 4 at a certain point all you can do is try and move and shield, you cant 'win', especially not in that scenario, but it does help you to find avenues of escape when several people are trying to get to you. you cant learn to swim by looking at the water.
Here is a 3 guys fight against each other demo (performed by my student's students).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53rUCAkmZs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXkZfwRSYF8&NR=1

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Some TCMA tournaments even have "horse stance" competation. I assume whoever can stand the longest will be the winner.

LMAO, I saw that at a tournament once too. The first thing I thought when I saw the flyer for the event was that it was a joke. The truth is truly stranger than fiction.

[Ray Pina]

Can't wait until the next movement.

Do you think MMA will transform itself into Wushu Wed. on Spike TV? Draw in some big advertising for grown men in shiny silk uniforms doing floor routines?

MMA has been a very successful and positive revolution for "martial arts". It is the reality check that was missing in the most past recent decades.

Boxers never needed it. Wrestlers never needed it..... it's a mysterious and awful thing how TMA adopted its present state of being. And if you realize, at the end of all these discussions... even if it sometimes takes weeks and multiple cross-over threads, it's agreed upon that its pretty silly when put in its proper perspective when compared to martial arts that develop competent combat sport competitors.

[ginosifu]

Boxers never needed it. Wrestlers never needed it..... it's a mysterious and awful thing how TMA adopted its present state of being. And if you realize, at the end of all these discussions... even if it sometimes takes weeks and multiple cross-over threads, it's agreed upon that its pretty silly when put in its proper perspective when compared to martial arts that develop competent combat sport competitors.

There are some TCMA who never stopped teaching the fighting aspects of Kung Fu. We never needed a "Reality Check" at our schools. The problem is that we have separated into different categories of Arts. There is Martial Sport, Martial art, Performance Art, Gymnastic Art, Health Art etc etc.

Sadly some CMA went to the silk pajama route. One of the big problems I see is that these Performance and Gymnastic art forms are popular, and many people like it. Our modern society is not geared towards hand to hand combat. You do not need to fight every time you go down the street for groceries. The modern person is only is only interested in health / fitness and a little self defense.

Face it..... this the Majority !

ginosifu

[Yoshiyahu]

What are the Rules to San Shou?


Do allow ground fighting?

Do they allow clinching?

What is banned in San Shou?

What is allowed?



Depending on the following this would dictate what styles can actually fight under those rules?

[David Jamieson]

What are the Rules to San Shou?


Do allow ground fighting?

Do they allow clinching?

What is banned in San Shou?

What is allowed?



Depending on the following this would dictate what styles can actually fight under those rules?

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/SanShouRules.htm

[ginosifu]

What are the Rules to San Shou?


Do allow ground fighting?

Do they allow clinching?

What is banned in San Shou?

What is allowed?

Depending on the following this would dictate what styles can actually fight under those rules?

Yoshiyahu: Basically you punch, kick grab and throw your opponent. No ground work and you wear 14 oz gloves, shin and instep pads, head gear (Chest gear optional): Here is a set of rules that we use.

INTERNATIONAL SAN SHOU RULES
Edited in Nov. 97-2000 by Mark Wong

CHAPTER 3:COMPETITION AND OFFICIATING METHOD

Article 14 Methods of Attack and Defense
Apply any school of wushu’s attack and defend methods.

Article 15 Valid parts
The valid parts include the head, the trunk and the legs.

Article 16 Faults
1 Attack the opponents back of head, the neck, the throat, or the crotch.
2 Attack the opponent by using the head, the elbow, and the knee.
3 Continuous hits to the opponent’s head.
4 Use jointlock controls.
5 Make the opponent fall with the head over heels on the platform or deliberately smash or weigh down his opponent.
6 Attack the fallen down opponent (except the opponent who did so as a means of combat).
7 Take an initiative hold of the opponent (except for the defensive hold of the legs and counter-make-fall such as a single or double leg takedown.)

Article 17 Absolute Victory

1 In an event of wide disparity in technique between two sides and one side has obviously lost the defending ability, the judge (referee) on the platform may, with the approval of the head judge, proclaim the stronger side to be the winner of the bout. Dominance
2 A competitor will win the bout if his opponent is knocked down by a blow on a valid part and remains down for 10 seconds, or he can stand up but with abnormal consciousness.
3 Approved by the head judge, a competitor will win a bout if he injured by his opponent’s foul attack and has been certified by a doctor that he is unable to compete again.
4 In a round, if a competitor is twice off the platform (any part of the body has touched the ground), the other side will be the winner of the round.
5 In a round, a competitor is hit at the valid part and given an 8 seconds count twice, his opponent wins the round.
6 In a round, if a competitor applies the methods from the 2), 3), 4), 5) of article 18 and gains three points three times, he will win the round. Back sweep or throw


Article 18 Scoring Methods

1. Winning three (3) points
A competitor will win three (3) points if:
1 Punches, kicks, pushes or throws his opponent off the platform in a round.
If it is done twice in one round, you win the round.
2 Hit the opponent’s valid part (or down) by a spinning kick to the head or chest while remain standing.
3 Make the opponent fall down (any part of the body, except the feet, has touched the ground) by a forward sweep or a backward sweep, while remain standing.
4 Knock the opponent down by a leg kick, while remain standing.
5 Make the opponent fall by a instinctive counter technique (including a sacrifice throw) while dodging defensively.

2 Winning Two Points
A competitor will win two (2) points if:
1 His opponent has fallen/thrown down while he himself remains standing.
2 Kick the opponent in the trunk once by the legs.
3 The opponent has been given a warning once. Three (3)warnings you are disqualified.
4 All throws with thrower standing is two (2) points unless a high altitude (3pts) or if you fall
on opponent or lose balance (1pts)
3. Winning One Point
A competitor will win one (1) point if:
1 Hit the opponent on a valid part once by a hand techniques.
2 Hit the opponent on the head or the legs once by a leg technique.
3 When two sides show passivity in a fight for 8 seconds, the judge on the platform orders his the opponents to attack, but the opponent still remains passive for another 8 seconds after the order.
(After 2 admonish-cautions you are warned)
4 The opponent has been admonished (cautioned-warning) once.
5 When both sides apply methods to force the opponent down, the later falls down will gain one point.

4 No Point Awarded
No point will be awarded to either side when:
1 Two sides hit each other on valid parts at the same time or successively. (Best to step back & punch)
2 Both sides fall down or off the platform at the same time or successively.
3 Throw the opponent to the ground or off the platform after holding him for five seconds or more.
4 The opponent falls on the ground as a means of combat.
5 The opponent falls on the ground after a flying movement.
6 Two sides hit each other in a locked fight (clinch).
7 Hit the lower leg when the opponent defends by raising his knee.
8 Hit the valid part by a forward sweep or a backward sweep while being pressed down by the opponent.
9 No clear technique and no obvious hit at the valid parts.

Article 19 Fouls and Penalties
1. Technical Fouls
1 After the judge on the platform (referee) signals the start, a competitor deliberately slows his march onto the platform or starts his fight after 5 seconds. (2 calls is the limit)
2 Request for a time out when the competitor is at a disadvantage.
3 Ungentlemanlike behavior to the judge or disobedience to his decision.
4 Persistently shouting out loudly or impolitely during a fight to frighten or disturb ones opponent despite previous warnings by the judge.
5 Spit out the gum shield or loosen the protective gear on purpose in a fight.
6 Violate Article 9.

2. Personal fouls
1 Attack the opponent before the judge on the platform (referee) gives the start signal or after he gives the stop signal.
2 Use prohibited methods to attack.

3. Penalties (2pt deduct)
1 An admonition will be given for a technical or a minor personal foul; but a warning will be given for an obvious personal foul.
2 A competitor who has been penalized up to six (6) points in a match will be disqualified and his opponent will be the winner of the bout.
3 A competitor who intentionally hurts his opponent or commits a serious foul will be disqualified from the bout or the whole competition accordingly.
4 A competitor who is found guilty if doping and inhaling oxygen during a break , or employing trickery will be disqualified from the whole competition.

Article 20 Suspension of Fight
The judge on the platform will suspend the fight in any of the following cases:
1 A competitor has fallen down or off the platform.
2 A competitor is injured.
3 The competitors are locked in a confused fight (clinch) for more than two (or four) seconds.
4 Both competitors refrain from attacking, and one of them shows passivity for a duration of eight seconds.
5 The head judge comes up to the platform to solve problems. Or the coach throws in a towel.
6 The head judge or other judges have spotted danger in a fight.
7 The fight is interrupted by objective factors such as problems of lighting and arena. Let me know if you have more questions.

ginosifu

[dcrjradmonish]

Sanshou / Sanda guys can compete in mma were there are less rules and should not hurt there training were as a guy that trains in mma would be limited in his training under sanshou rules. Right now with the legal competitions out there can’t beat mma rules to test ones self.

[SteveLau]

Testing oneself VS OTHER systems is the only thing that keeps a system from becoming "inbreed" and obsolete.


Very true. San Shou format allows a wide range of techniques, and it is quite safe. The main reason that holds other stylists back is whether they are willing to face the reality in public - allow people to see their style and their skill level in contest.



KC
Hong Kong

[donjitsu2]

Do you believe that TCMA tournaments that hold San Shou events should limit participation to only TCMA practioners or should any style be allowed to compete under these rules. Personnally I think it would go a long way to allow all styles to compete under San Shou instead of trying to make it strictly for Kung Fu. Thoughts?

San Shou/Sanda comps should be for everyone regardless of style.

Everyone benefits from such an approach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanshou / Sanda guys can compete in mma were there are less rules and should not hurt there training were as a guy that trains in mma would be limited in his training under sanshou rules. Right now with the legal competitions out there can’t beat mma rules to test ones self.

And that is what they shoudl be used for.
Testing one skills.
Right now MMA allows a fighter to test how complete his MA skills are because he will have to be competent in ALL ranges:
Striking
Clinch
Throwing
ground work
submissions
Ground n pound

Its not about becoming a MMA fighter or doing MMA, it is about one simply fact:
In MMA you can TEST ALL your skills and get a good idea how good you are with NOTHING left out.
And sense there still is a lot of variety out there, one can test to whatever degree of skill and/or rules one chooses.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

By the same token, MMAers may want to compete in San Shou to test their stand up skill, as well as their take down and wrestling skills. I can tell you this, in my state MMA is not legal so many of the local gyms compete in whatever combat sport is legal here and go out of state for MMA. This could be the case for someone competing from MMA or other things.

I'm sure there have been MMA guys who also competed in boxing, kickboxing, or Muay Thai, not really a stretch that they would compete in San Shou.

[Lucas]

i think sanshou is a perfect format for guys who do mma but are far more advanced in ground than stand up so that they can better their experience and exposure to solid stand up. would only help improve their game, where as in mma they will be catering to their weakness constantly by always needing to take the fight to the ground.

same thing for guys in terms of submission grappling that are heavy on striking, entering grappling tourney can help tighten up their defeciencies.

imo

[Iron_Eagle_76]

i think sanshou is a perfect format for guys who do mma but are far more advanced in ground than stand up so that they can better their experience and exposure to solid stand up. would only help improve their game, where as in mma they will be catering to their weakness constantly by always needing to take the fight to the ground.

same thing for guys in terms of submission grappling that are heavy on striking, entering grappling tourney can help tighten up their defeciencies.

imo

Stop making sense, that's not what this forum is for!!:p

[Lucas]

oh crap wrong forum!!! :eek:

[Ray Pina]

It's a good point that at the amateur level one could diversify to make sure their overall game is of the level... compete in BJJ, kick boxing as well as mma. Once one is devoted to MMA though, thinking about seriously pursuing it, one can't risk injury with over competition. One needs a week to heal before a fight because the pre-fight prep is so intense. You can't maintain that.

Also, the concept of "having to" take someone down is like saying you "have to" punch someone in the face. One takes what one is presented. One utilizes what is successful for them..... again, this is the glory of MMA. You think you're striking is so good, and maybe it is, but there's more to fighting than that. How does your best overall game compare against other's best overall game.

Maybe someone "needs" to take you down. But they may do it 10 out of 10 times for a finish each time.

[Lucas]

i do agree. a lot of it just comes down to 'there is always someone better' in such that when that guy does meet someone who can stuff all his shots and out strike him, he'll be screwed. thus the overall game, like you said. but then, thats the same for all of us with our respective strengths/weaknesses. but for someone like me (can fully admit the ground is my weakness, not that im not addressing it, but it still is) i do have to 'strike them in the face' or any other body part presented and available, because i really dont want to go to the ground if i can at all avoid it.