Wing Chun Upper Cut and Hooks?

[Yoshiyahu]

Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?

Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system....

Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.

So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?

[couch]

Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?

Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system....

Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.

So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?

My Wing Chun that I have been taught and train has 90% (best guess) of all the striking that all other martial arts have - just that it goes through a different 'expression' on the way out.

Straights, verticals, hooks, uppercuts, over-the-top elbows, horizontal elbows, upward elbows, knees, headbutts, clinch-ish, shoulder-butts, etc. You name it...it's there.

[Yoshiyahu]

My Wing Chun that I have been taught and train has 90% (best guess) of all the striking that all other martial arts have - just that it goes through a different 'expression' on the way out.

Straights, verticals, hooks, uppercuts, over-the-top elbows, horizontal elbows, upward elbows, knees, headbutts, clinch-ish, shoulder-butts, etc. You name it...it's there.

Thanks for the post!

[Lee Chiang Po]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

[jesper]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

plenty of people gets ko by hook in boxing what makes you think theres no power behind it ?

Hook can be effective, but like all other weapons you need to do it right and time it right

[Graham H]

Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?

Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system....

Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.

So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?

There are no hooks and uppercuts in my VT! The action in CK that looks like an uppercut is not an uppercut. There are no hooks in BJ either.

Maybe you should be thinking more along the lines of recovering the elbow position, control of the center and improving the usage of elbow for the punch.

These hooking and uppercut actions in general WC systems stem from people in the past looking at others doing the forms and creating their own interprtations based on what they see..........my opinion.

There are other ideas at work here.

I would rather you had said "some" lineages use these as hooks and uppercuts. ;)

GH

[bennyvt]

I wouldn't call the thing in bui jee a hook as you are just bending your wrist and not bending the elbow. It is more of a waist movement with the pivot . We also don't use the chum kui as an uppercut tguis is more to teach you how to get back to a punch from the bong, also with the wrist turned it blocks more of the center, adds power etc. I use this a lot on the ground when punching the guy in the side as it is near impossible the do the normal fist and not contact with the finger portion of the wrist with a straight punch
That doesn't mean I don't punch up or the side but a hook and an uppercut are based on boxing terms and I know what I learn boxing was completly different so I like to make the distinction

[Graham H]

I wouldn't call the thing in bui jee a hook as you are just bending your wrist and not bending the elbow. It is more of a waist movement with the pivot .

Correct! Its not a hook. Why do we bend the wrist inwards during fook sau??......maybe for the same reasons.;)


We also don't use the chum kui as an uppercut tguis is more to teach you how to get back to a punch from the bong, also wit hygr quest turned it blocks more of the center, adds power etc.


It is to teach how to punch correctly (elbow position) but it could be from any position. Its all about the punch, reinforcing SLT and where we start to use different angles. We can't fight using SLT. It is one dimensional. VT comes alive in CK.

The idea of elbow usage and recovery is everywhere in the forms.

GH

[Kevin73]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

A proper hook has the body behind it. If you are only using the arm, they usually call that a "swing".

[couch]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

The hook doesn't have the body behind it? How so? Wing Chun's hip-twisting action to generate power is a perfect place to start the hook.

Hooks, also, aren't generally long, looping actions. Hooks are tight and can be used at a close range.

[couch]

Correct! Its not a hook. Why do we bend the wrist inwards during fook sau??......maybe for the same reasons.;)

GH

I agree and don't think that the BJ contains a hook. In my lineage, it's called a Ginger Fist (akin to a panther punch). Needs conditioning to make it work, so I use a close fist as a personal preference. The ginger fist can fit into small (rib) spaces, can rake against the ribs and is a good tool to use when refacing (as BJ teaches).

[Graham H]

I agree and don't think that the BJ contains a hook. In my lineage, it's called a Ginger Fist (akin to a panther punch). Needs conditioning to make it work, so I use a close fist as a personal preference. The ginger fist can fit into small (rib) spaces, can rake against the ribs and is a good tool to use when refacing (as BJ teaches).

You think there is time in fighting to place ginger fists between ribs??? :D If the ribs are open then why not just punch normally? No point in making funny shapes with the hand. There is too much risk of injury to strike with the wrist bent.

GH

[Vajramusti]

You can give them whatever name s you want. The upper cut and hook like motions are not western boxing motions because of wing chun approach to use of shoulder and the rquirements of good chor ma and other wing chun footwork... and the body is united in both motions.
Depends on your wing chun.

BTW even in boxing, a good hook is NOT a swing.

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

You think there is time in fighting to place ginger fists between ribs??? :D If the ribs are open then why not just punch normally? No point in making funny shapes with the hand. There is too much risk of injury to strike with the wrist bent.

GH

Wing Chun is a Kung-Fu.

Plus, the Ginger Fist is in there due to the recovering position from the BJ. Not a lot of room.

[YouKnowWho]

How hard will it be to include both "hook punch" and "upper cut" into your training? Why should you care about whether it was in your system or not? As long as you know how to use it, that should all you care about. You are the master and styles are your slaves. It's you that's more important.

A: Dear master! Does "hook punch" exist in our style?
B: It didn't. Since I know how to do "hook punch" and I have taught you already, today you can say that our style has "hook punch". 1000 years from today, who is going to ask the same question?

[Fa Xing]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

Wow, that's completely baseless, I've knocked down people with my right hook (fighting in southpaw). From my experience, uppercuts are a lot harder to get power than hooks. There's a lot of more hip rotation in a hook than an uppercut.

[k gledhill]

Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.
Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.
We use opponents axis turns from making this sort of attack against them.
Sadly many use blocks that prevent this and maintain incorrect tactical ideas placing themselves front and center to an opponent throwing just this attack...:D if you stand in front of a guy throwing hooks, uppercuts , etc...and stay there trying to block and hit, your setting yourself up for a takedown and in terms of a water fight you might block some but you will get wet in fights adopting this method. Another aspect of bad VT is using blocks to prevent this natural mistake opponents can make. thus compounding the mistakes against you because your 'preventing' it from happening....let them turn too much.

VT tries to use the opponents mistakes against them, like over swinging , overturning and countering them or preventing them re-facing again.
Turning the opponent on their axis continuously is possible using correct ideas.

In BG we only reface with a centered elbows, recovering elbows, iow we reface to attack with elbow ideas again not ginger fist , more conceptual stuff....blah blah :D

Im not saying anything against hooks and uppercuts , just why Ving Tsun doesnt adopt them.
Also we use bare hands that allow full force open palm strikes on heads that uppercuts do so they hit the face /jaw rather than break hands on downward defensive skulls. Plus the boxing combos etc...and bobbing and weaving allow this way with gloves, etc...

theres more but I have to train !

[mjw]

We do have both in our forms and I do quite a few uppercuts but not so many hooks are thrown (probablly because of WC principles) unless we are really tied up. However wo do defend against them a lot......

[Liddel]

How hard will it be to include both "hook punch" and "upper cut" into your training? Why should you care about whether it was in your system or not? As long as you know how to use it, that should all you care about. You are the master and styles are your slaves. It's you that's more important.

This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.

While you don't want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn't mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.

A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn't totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn't wreck your horse...

I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i've knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who's to tell me it isn't VT ?

Perhaps people read into the term 'HOOK' or 'UPPERCUT' to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.


Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.

A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:


Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.

Thats why those that don't know how to recover using VT 'recovery tools' should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.

Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.

Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?

[k gledhill]

This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.

While you don't want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn't mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.

A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn't totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn't wreck your horse...

I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i've knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who's to tell me it isn't VT ?

Perhaps people read into the term 'HOOK' or 'UPPERCUT' to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.



A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:



Thats why those that don't know how to recover using VT 'recovery tools' should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.

Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.

Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?


A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:

You sound like you're in the same mind set as many who dont understand the reasons for not using uppercuts and hooks. The other reasons are the elbows and their relationship to VT specific ways of hitting. We cant use hook elbows or lifting upper cut elbows as we use VT strikes..but you knew that right ;)

As for the quote above , its a combination effect of rotation on the axis line, regardless of 'precision' you throwing curves and you will make turning lines of force, the more force guys throw the more they turn and have to recover....Its also easy to read the next hit coming ...

Your sarcasm only highlights your ignorance of VT ;)

try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot...does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought...
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight ...if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )

[Yoshiyahu]

Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT....


Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far...

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw


I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill's,
k gledhill.



In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut...My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn't have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least "you can split the lip".

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say "Split the Lip"

The infamous "HOOK"! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don't do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.

[k gledhill]

Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT....


Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far...

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw


I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill's,
k gledhill.



In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut...My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn't have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least "you can split the lip".

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say "Split the Lip"

The infamous "HOOK"! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don't do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.

This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more...
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc...
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me :D ..a common mistake many 'so-called' masters make ;)

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc...so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS :D

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT ....but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all :D yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth :D why not call that VT windmill , :o

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what your saying an respectfully disagree with you!

First off to clarify with you. I agree with what your saying about pulling a wrestler into you. No with the hook you don't pull him into your center. But away from your center. You pull him so he is somewhat flanked an your on his blind side. An as you disengage you re-established your center by hooking the punch into his face. I would simply have to either spar with you or freestyle chi sau with you to show you what i mean. Free Sparring is the best way. I am not saying in WC I would be attempting a hook fifty percent of the time. No that technique i rarely use. But I know its there in case a situation rises where i can utilize it. But i respect your comment in how you do things. There is a lot of knowledge in what you say. But my disagreement falls with the application of what I am trying to convey. Unless you had it done to you or done it to someone else you won't quite understand what I mean!!! But its all good.


As for wrestlers. There are certain techniques i use more so on wrestlers and others I use on boxers and totally different techniques i use for kickers. Everyone's Martial Art is different. All have strengths and weaknesses. Even Wing Chun!




This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more...
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc...
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me :D ..a common mistake many 'so-called' masters make ;)

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc...so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS :D

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT ....but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all :D yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth :D why not call that VT windmill , :o

[YouKnowWho]

try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot...does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought...
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight ...if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )
There is a combo move after the "hook punch" and that is the "turn back/hook kick". You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your "turn back/hook kick".

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent's arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, it can be a effective "finish" move. Old saying said, "3 punches on your opponent's face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head" (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent's head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don't train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.

[Phil Redmond]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.
A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

[Yoshiyahu]

There is a combo move after the "hook punch" and that is the "turn back/hook kick". You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your "turn back/hook kick".

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent's arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, it can be a effective "finish" move. Old saying said, "3 punches on your opponent's face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head" (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent's head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don't train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.


thanks for your post...I don't understand why some people are so closed minded!


A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.


So true...But when you throw a hook into a heavy bag you feel the power generation an just know you got more body behind it than an upper cut which is rising force oppose to swinging force with your body behind it. Horizontal Punches typically have more power than the verticals ones. Their are ways to train boxing upper cuts outside of focus mitts. Like there is uppercut bag as well. I am so glad you shared this information.

[YouKnowWho]

A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

If you use "stealing step" and spin your body, you can use your hook punch to knock your opponent from a vertical posture into a horizontal posture, and then drop to the ground. I didn't know this was possible until oneday I saw it happened by my own eyes.

If your opponent attacks you in combat speed and you don't have time to do anything, you can just spin your body out of the attacking path and throw your 45 degree downward hook punch out, your problem may be solved.

The hook punch can also be used to set up an "underhook" if you are interested in the grappling game.

It can be a very useful tool in your toolbox and that's for sure.

[k gledhill]

Ving Tsun has no hooks or uppercuts :D carry on !

[Graham H]

The best thing so far is when somebody said how can you be so close minded when they are advocating an action that shouldn't even be in the system. Hooks and uppercuts. Just face it dudes. Your teacher or teachers teachers put those in there because they knew no better. If hooks and uppercuts work for you in your lineage then that's great. If you are knocking guys out with them then even better but they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system. No need for me to say anymore than what I or Kevin has said. Kick boxing style wing chun with sticky arms is the norm nowadays. No big deal.

Gh

[YouKnowWho]

they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system.

This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?

[Graham H]

This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?

In a fight you must use whatever wins. I could win a fight by bashing your head with a brick. As yet I don't think we have incorporated that secret move. Maybe we can stick it BJ. :D:D

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Ving Tsun has no hooks or uppercuts :D carry on !
That's so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn't WC (I use WC since that's VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it's WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that "your" WC doesn't have round or uppercut punches. Like I've said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.

[Graham H]

That's so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn't WC (I use WC since that's VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it's WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that "your" WC doesn't have round or uppercut punches. Like I've said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.

The discussion isn't about what one will use, if needed, to win a fight. The discussion is about hooks and uppercuts being present in CK and BJ isnt it? If we adopt the theory of "incorporate anything that goes" then what is the point in even training a specific Martial Art? We may as well ALL do what you do and take up kick boxing!

F**k it! I'm going to start doing my CK with a baseball bat form now on! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

GH

[k gledhill]

That's so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn't WC (I use WC since that's VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it's WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that "your" WC doesn't have round or uppercut punches. Like I've said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.


VT has no hooks or uppercuts ...Yes you can adapt and fight to the moment, we all do this. It is part of the VT thinking to use no limit as your limit and not be a slave to the system. But that doesn't mean adding hooks and uppercuts either :D

Many "teachers" mistakenly create MORE in the system to impress, rather than reduce the subtle sophistication to a sharp razors edge, delivered at lightning speeds, with an attitude :D

[Grumblegeezer]

VT has no hooks or uppercuts ...Yes you can adapt and fight to the moment, we all do this. It is part of the VT thinking to use no limit as your limit and not be a slave to the system. But that doesn't mean adding hooks and uppercuts either :D

Many "teachers" mistakenly create MORE in the system to impress, rather than reduce the subtle sophistication to a sharp razors edge, delivered at lightning speeds, with an attitude :D

My VT has a "lifting punch" in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, "Sun" fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it's target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that's fine by me.

[k gledhill]

My VT has a "lifting punch" in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, "Sun" fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it's target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that's fine by me.

Where is the lifting punch in SLT ?

[Phil Redmond]

The discussion isn't about what one will use, if needed, to win a fight. The discussion is about hooks and uppercuts being present in CK and BJ isnt it? If we adopt the theory of "incorporate anything that goes" then what is the point in even training a specific Martial Art? We may as well ALL do what you do and take up kick boxing!

F**k it! I'm going to start doing my CK with a baseball bat form now on! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

GH
Some WC styles have uppercuts and round punches. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

My VT has a "lifting punch" in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, "Sun" fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it's target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that's fine by me.
Exactly what I was refering to.

[Phil Redmond]

Where is the lifting punch in SLT ?
In the WC I've seen there is no lifting punch in SLT. There are no kicks, double gan saos, kwan saos, gwai mah, front stance, etc., in SLT but these things do exist in the system.

[k gledhill]

In the WC I've seen there is no lifting punch in SLT. There are no kicks, double gan saos, kwan saos, gwai mah, front stance, etc., in SLT but these things do exist in the system.

Stances, kicks ,movement are in CK. SLT isnt fully functional until CK.

No double gaun sao either , its a low gaun sao + hi jum strike ;) or kwan sao....that only exists in cycling through dummy work. The low bong being used on the low arm for ballistic force , while the tan has cycled from low gaun back to hitting....:D

One has to imagine 'missing ' with a lifting punch or missing with a hook to see the reasons we dont use them. If a lifting punch 'lifts' how do I cycle over it if you block it ? if I miss and overturn with a hook how do I hit you with the other hand ....
We train not to over turn death by 1cm prevails

[Jake104]

Stances, kicks ,movement are in CK. SLT isnt fully functional until CK.

No double gaun sao either , its a low gaun sao + hi jum strike ;) or kwan sao....that only exists in cycling through dummy work. The low bong being used on the low arm for ballistic force , while the tan has cycled from low gaun back to hitting....:D

One has to imagine 'missing ' with a lifting punch or missing with a hook to see the reasons we dont use them. If a lifting punch 'lifts' how do I cycle over it if you block it ? if I miss and overturn with a hook how do I hit you with the other hand ....
We train not to over turn death by 1cm prevails

First off , who's to say a Wing Chun hook will overturn if missed. The way I was
taught and use a hook punch . Was not to swing past center but hook out and back down center similar to a neck grab. As for if a uppercut/lifting punch gets blocked. I bounce off the block and transition into a hook using the same hand.

[k gledhill]

First off , who's to say a Wing Chun hook will overturn if missed. The way I was
taught and use a hook punch . Was not to swing past center but hook out and back down center similar to a neck grab. As for if a uppercut/lifting punch gets blocked. I bounce off the block and transition into a hook using the same hand.

Thats not Ving Tsun .... NO Wing Chun hook :D look at SLT wheres the hook ?

[Jake104]

Thats not Ving Tsun .... NO Wing Chun hook :D look at SLT wheres the hook ?

I know its not, its Wing Chun:D. Too each there own.. But bottom line for me is it works and I can pull it off real time against a opponent that's trying to hurt me. And who am I to say what's authentic and what's not.Somebody told me it was as somebody probably told you it wasn't.. So somebody is lying.

[k gledhill]

I know its not, its Wing Chun:D. Too each there own.. But bottom line for me is it works and I can pull it off real time against a opponent that's trying to hurt me. And who am I to say what's authentic and what's not.Somebody told me it was as somebody probably told you it wasn't.. So somebody is lying.

What ! you mean swinging your arms at a guy works for you ~! ? crazy talk ~!

[Vajramusti]

Thats not Ving Tsun .... NO Wing Chun hook :D look at SLT wheres the hook ?

----------------------------------------------------------------

The seed is there in the slt. And yes- the elbow is there with it.
But , then, I don't care to argue.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Thats not Ving Tsun .... NO Wing Chun hook :D look at SLT wheres the hook ?
Kevin, you cannot say what is and what is not WC. Neither can I, nor ANYONE. We all do what we and our teachers were exposed to. It simple logic . The proof of what works is competing. Not demos like myself and other do but competing. I teach based on what worked for me successfully in competitions and what works for our fighters now. Our school is based on fighting. Not Chi sao clips and demos. We get out there and fight.
In fact since you're in NY we have a venue for your fighters to test their WC. Your students are very welcome to compete. Chi sao vids are impressive but if you ain't fighting it's all fluff. So we will agree to disagree. If you show me what you say works in fighting then I'll have to agree with you. Until then we can go back and forth on a theoretical forum all day and night. :)

[Phil Redmond]

A major problem amongst WC people is mis-communication. Like this example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

[k gledhill]

----------------------------------------------------------------

The seed is there in the slt. And yes- the elbow is there with it.
But , then, I don't care to argue.

joy chaudhuri

the seed is there ....:rolleyes: a more ambiguous "definitely maybe" I dont think you could have made.

[k gledhill]

Kevin, you cannot say what is and what is not WC. Neither can I, nor ANYONE. We all do what we and our teachers were exposed to. It simple logic . The proof of what works is competing. Not demos like myself and other do but competing. I teach based on what worked for me successfully in competitions and what works for our fighters now. Our school is based on fighting. Not Chi sao clips and demos. We get out there and fight.
In fact since you're in NY we have a venue for your fighters to test their WC. Your students are very welcome to compete. Chi sao vids are impressive but if you ain't fighting it's all fluff. So we will agree to disagree. If you show me what you say works in fighting then I'll have to agree with you. Until then we can go back and forth on a theoretical forum all day and night. :)


I can only offer my informed opinion. Yeah you can see when we meet , if I ever get out of daddy daycare :D

[YouKnowWho]

Allow me to ask a stupid question here. The day that you started to train WC, did you decide that you want to be loyality to WC for the rest of your life? or did you think that someday you might want to learn other styles too? The reason that I ask this question is because there is a difference between the strategy that:

- You want to apply, vs.
- WC wants you to apply.

I don't like to be restricted by any style principles. Not sure other WC brothers feel the same way as I do or not.

[Vajramusti]

Allow me to ask a stupid question here. The day that you started to train WC, did you decide that you want to be loyality to WC for the rest of your life? or did you think that someday you might want to learn other styles too? The reason that I ask this question is because there is a difference between the strategy that:

- You want to apply, vs.
- WC wants you to apply.

I don't like to be restricted by any style principles. Not sure other WC brothers feel the same way as I do.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I did other styles before wing chun( with good teachers)- but wing chun took over. It's versatile, natural and adaptable.
i was fortunate to get good instructuion for the fundamentals.

I understand your view but it is not mine.It's a diverse world.

joy chaudhuri

[Jake104]

What ! you mean swinging your arms at a guy works for you ~! ? crazy talk ~!

That's how I roll.

[k gledhill]

That's how I roll.

Do you do ving tsun ?

[Frost]

Kevin, you cannot say what is and what is not WC. Neither can I, nor ANYONE. We all do what we and our teachers were exposed to. It simple logic . The proof of what works is competing. Not demos like myself and other do but competing. I teach based on what worked for me successfully in competitions and what works for our fighters now. Our school is based on fighting. Not Chi sao clips and demos. We get out there and fight.
In fact since you're in NY we have a venue for your fighters to test their WC. Your students are very welcome to compete. Chi sao vids are impressive but if you ain't fighting it's all fluff. So we will agree to disagree. If you show me what you say works in fighting then I'll have to agree with you. Until then we can go back and forth on a theoretical forum all day and night. :)

lol that is NEVER going to happen and you know it phil

On another note please stop being so sensible and even handed in your posts, remember its the wing chun forum :)

[k gledhill]

lol that is NEVER going to happen and you know it phil

On another note please stop being so sensible and even handed in your posts, remember its the wing chun forum :)

Frost again with worthless posts from the balcony...:D

[wingchunIan]

can someone post which movements in CK or BJ are supposed to be hooks? The debate around "upper cuts" I can kind of understand because of the chow kuern (forgive poor spelling) movements but hooks? Genuinely interested.
IMO if you want to hit the side of an oppenent angling allows it to be done with straight shots and the correct range to throw a hook from (assuming that we are talking about a good tight boxing hook and not a swing) is the same range as elbows are used at hence there are no hooks in the version of WC that I train. I disagree that we never lift the elbow (fak sau, mun sau, bong sau) but circular motions are alien to centre line theory that underpins the entire system. For me the tool used, as discussed on the ginger fist / phoenix eye thread, kicking thread etc, is a matter of choice even if that tool comes from another system but the core concepts and philosophy of the system as set down in the kuit kuen etc are inviolate as you either believe them and live by them or you don't.

"others walk the bow, I walk the string"

[Frost]

Im not the one posting endlessly about the correct way to do WC (sorry VT) and telling everyone how wrong they are, I’m also not the one saying this is how to fight with wing chun and lets all do what Bayer does because he comes from a fighting lineage (WSL) then only posting non contact non fighting clips from my lineage

Just saying :o)

[Vajramusti]

can someone post which movements in CK or BJ are supposed to be hooks? The debate around "upper cuts" I can kind of understand because of the chow kuern (forgive poor spelling) movements but hooks? Genuinely interested.
IMO if you want to hit the side of an oppenent angling allows it to be done with straight shots and the correct range to throw a hook from (assuming that we are talking about a good tight boxing hook and not a swing) is the same range as elbows are used at hence there are no hooks in the version of WC that I train. I disagree that we never lift the elbow (fak sau, mun sau, bong sau) but circular motions are alien to centre line theory that underpins the entire system. For me the tool used, as discussed on the ginger fist / phoenix eye thread, kicking thread etc, is a matter of choice even if that tool comes from another system but the core concepts and philosophy of the system as set down in the kuit kuen etc are inviolate as you either believe them and live by them or you don't.

"others walk the bow, I walk the string"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian- FWIW/IMO- the wing chun way(not the western boxing way) of doing the upper cuts, hooks and ginger fists- do not violate concepts expressed in the kuen kuit. And the building blocks are in the forms. The relevant motions in the forms are mother techniques when you are practicing solo and developing the hand weapons. Varying them and adjusting them depending on what other or others are doing involves relevant(not mechanical) chis sao, lop sao, gor sao,
lat sao and solid and good and coordinated footwork- including micro motions. On the jong there is a section where after a bong you step/turn and from the side you lop and phoenix eye towards the axis of the dummy. Also in the jong there is a step and pak and hook to the gut
section. In the dummy also there is a section where you do dai bong then regular tan and ginger fist the throat. in the BJ there is a section where you control and take down with both hands on your opponent off balancing him and hit with a hook. There is much more.

I don't put down others just because they do things their way. But civil conversations are seldom bad ideas in clarifying a subject.

Good wishes, Joy

[k gledhill]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian- FWIW/IMO- the wing chun way(not the western boxing way) of doing the upper cuts, hooks and ginger fists- do not violate concepts expressed in the kuen kuit. And the building blocks are in the forms. The relevant motions in the forms are mother techniques when you are practicing solo and developing the hand weapons. Varying them and adjusting them depending on what other or others are doing involves relevant(not mechanical) chis sao, lop sao, gor sao,
lat sao and solid and good and coordinated footwork- including micro motions. On the jong there is a section where after a bong you step/turn and from the side you lop and phoenix eye towards the axis of the dummy. Also in the jong there is a step and pak and hook to the gut
section. In the dummy also there is a section where you do dai bong then regular tan and ginger fist the throat. in the BJ there is a section where you control and take down with both hands on your opponent off balancing him and hit with a hook. There is much more.

I don't put down others just because they do things their way. But civil conversations are seldom bad ideas in clarifying a subject.

Good wishes, Joy


Where is pe\gf in slt ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You won't find boxer hooks or uppercuts in WC, but you will find upward and hoking punches.
The elbow goes up on the typical hook in boxing, but stays down on the WC hook, which is basically a straight the hooks at the end more than a "classical boxers" hook.
As for the uppercut, any strike this is in an "uppercutting" motion is an uppercut, it can be done with a fist or elbow or palm.

[k gledhill]

You won't find boxer hooks or uppercuts in WC, but you will find upward and hoking punches.
The elbow goes up on the typical hook in boxing, but stays down on the WC hook, which is basically a straight the hooks at the end more than a "classical boxers" hook.
As for the uppercut, any strike this is in an "uppercutting" motion is an uppercut, it can be done with a fist or elbow or palm.

This is a common misconception due to not understanding elbow recovery from raised elbows to striking transitions...ergo bong to lowering elbow .....many look at the hands for 1:1 use because of incomplete ideas.

After bong or lan or fac we bring elbows in...

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .circular motions are alien to centre line theory that underpins the entire system. . . .
TWC isn't centerline. It's central line so hook "type" punches work well for is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBPmlvAB8jA&feature=relmfu

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a common misconception due to not understanding elbow recovery from raised elbows to striking transitions...ergo bong to lowering elbow .....many look at the hands for 1:1 use because of incomplete ideas.

After bong or lan or fac we bring elbows in...

What part is a "common misconception"?
That WC "hooks" do NOT look like typical boxing hooks? or that WC hooks DON'T raise/lift the elbows like boxing hooks?

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think the angle can have anything to do with hook punch. You can punch:

- 45 degree upward,
- horizontally, or
- 45 degree downward.

All are effective hook punches.

[k gledhill]

What part is a "common misconception"?
That WC "hooks" do NOT look like typical boxing hooks? or that WC hooks DON'T raise/lift the elbows like boxing hooks?

That the action in ck many see as an uppercut isnt.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think the angle can have anything to do with hook punch. You can punch:

- 45 degree upward,
- horizontally, or
- 45 degree downward.

All are effective hook punches.

Of course, they all serve their purpose.
Boxing's hooks are done the way they are because they presuppose the defense they are going to need to "go around".

[sanjuro_ronin]

That the action in ck many see as an uppercut isnt.

Ah, I understand what you mean now.
I wasn't talking about forms though, but core principle of keeping your elbow down and how a boxing hook would seem to go against that principle.

[Yoshiyahu]

The best thing so far is when somebody said how can you be so close minded when they are advocating an action that shouldn't even be in the system. Hooks and uppercuts. Just face it dudes. Your teacher or teachers teachers put those in there because they knew no better. If hooks and uppercuts work for you in your lineage then that's great. If you are knocking guys out with them then even better but they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system. No need for me to say anymore than what I or Kevin has said. Kick boxing style wing chun with sticky arms is the norm nowadays. No big deal.

Gh

AS for my Sifu...He never Went in depth on uppercuts or hooks. In fact he never said WC had uppercuts...its the word I use to describe the motion of raising fist. of course the energy is different with the WC uppercut. Because you don't move the body in the same motion. The Boxers motion is deeper and wider. While the WC motion is shorter and more direct. It basically follows the principal enconomy of motion. In other words strike where your hand posistion is...You dont draw back or chamber to punch...you just strike! If doing a quasi hook to recover your forward structure is applicable do it!


This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?

Please elaborate?

[YouKnowWho]

Please elaborate?
If you have only one wife, you listen to whatever that your wife may say. If you have 2 wives, when they give you different orders, which one will you listen?

When you learn the

- southern TCMA system, your teacher asks you to keep your arm and chest in 90 degree angle. This way, both of your arms can have the same reach on your opponent.
- nothern TCMA system, your teacher asks you to keep your arm and chest in 180 straight line. This way, you will have the maximum reach for your leading arm.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3614/chickenstance.gif

How will you punch if you have trained both southern TCMA system and nothern TCMA system? IMO, all contridictions are "trade off" that fit into different situations. You will need to use different strategies in order to handle different situations.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for sharing so true!




My VT has a "lifting punch" in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, "Sun" fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it's target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that's fine by me.

[Yoshiyahu]

That the action in ck many see as an uppercut isnt.

What is the action in Chum Kiu used for?

Can it also be utilized as a strike?

Does that technique have only one application or infinite?

[Fa Xing]

It's been mentioned before, but hook doesn't mean a swing.

In JKD and Jun Fan Gung fu: there should be no pulling back at the shoulder, just a 45-90 degree abduction of the arm as the waist twists. The fist is held vertically, as opposed to the horizontal commonly seen in boxing.

[k gledhill]

What is the action in Chum Kiu used for?

Can it also be utilized as a strike?

Does that technique have only one application or infinite?

Its recovering the centered or fixed elbow position after raising it to do bong. Anyone can strike with elbows out without ever learning VT ...but try to fight using this concept and it gets a little difficult against someone who has mastered it.

Its is a strike or a parry or both , its up to you when you need the dynamics of the alignment. the line stays the same :D when I hit/parry you, its from the ground up to your jaw through my leg> hip> core> elbow> forearm> fist...

[YouKnowWho]

Both WC Tang Shou and XingYi Zhuan Quan move in a 45 degree upward path. Both can be used as upper cut.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chang+tung+sheng&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=718&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=Yc3EG77LAbEbrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.chikung.com/testimonials/&docid=mf7KSXTqC-UtuM&imgurl=http://www.chikung.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/punch.gif&w=359&h=239&ei=cfShTve3LYGPigLu8bV5&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1029&vpy=359&dur=200&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=184&ty=119&sig=105430255775201122948&page=2&tbnh=140&tbnw=197&start=20&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:20

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay so you simply disagree with semantics...well thats fine and dandy...you agree that the upper motion of the rising fist in the center is also a strike...So we are in aggreance!



Its recovering the centered or fixed elbow position after raising it to do bong. Anyone can strike with elbows out without ever learning VT ...but try to fight using this concept and it gets a little difficult against someone who has mastered it.

Its is a strike or a parry or both , its up to you when you need the dynamics of the alignment. the line stays the same :D when I hit/parry you, its from the ground up to your jaw through my leg> hip> core> elbow> forearm> fist...

[k gledhill]

Both WC Tang Shou and XingYi Zhuan Quan move in a 45 degree upward path. Both can be used as upper cut.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chang+tung+sheng&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=718&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=Yc3EG77LAbEbrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.chikung.com/testimonials/&docid=mf7KSXTqC-UtuM&imgurl=http://www.chikung.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/punch.gif&w=359&h=239&ei=cfShTve3LYGPigLu8bV5&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1029&vpy=359&dur=200&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=184&ty=119&sig=105430255775201122948&page=2&tbnh=140&tbnw=197&start=20&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:20

our punching line isnt level ;)..

Tan sao isnt horizontal its a punch so is jum, each points as a strike to your jaw. Why some guys make a big thing about the height of tan sao as a block .
Tan sao and Jum sao are each a punching concept, so the arm is held as if its going to hit your jaw, not over your head, or your stomach.
We train low tans and foks in chi-sao drills just to keep the elbows down and develop hip connections, rather than hinging shoulders....

Ergo the line of force you see WSL doing in CK demos when he does this action is straight from his leg up to elbow throught the hips....ground to jaw.

SLT isnt fully functional until you add the dynamics of motion of CK into the mix, rotation sharply on our axis lines, stepping short explosive bursts to coincde with releasing force. shifting to attack laterally with the same ideas, changing facing lines seamlessly to make lines of force from one dynamic to another....
SLT & CK

When you see this 'lifting punch' its not a lifting punch its simply the aligned striking parrying arm in motion with the body as it faces then turns back still centered facing , always centered :D 1cm or death ;)

[Jake104]

Do you do ving tsun ?

Since 93. And if hooks and uppercuts wouldn't have been in the version I originally learned. I probably would have abandoned it a long time ago in favor of something else. It's not in my favor to convince you or anyone else wether or not hooks belong in VT WC WT. Personally, I prefer you leave the hooks and uppercuts out of your system.:D

[k gledhill]

Since 93. And if hooks and uppercuts wouldn't have been in the version I originally learned. I probably would have abandoned it a long time ago in favor of something else. It's not in my favor to convince you or anyone else wether or not hooks belong in VT WC WT. Personally, I prefer you leave the hooks and uppercuts out of your system.:D

Thank you, I shall not adopt them :D

[WC1277]

our punching line isnt level ;)..

Tan sao isnt horizontal its a punch so is jum, each points as a strike to your jaw. Why some guys make a big thing about the height of tan sao as a block .
Tan sao and Jum sao are each a punching concept, so the arm is held as if its going to hit your jaw, not over your head, or your stomach.
We train low tans and foks in chi-sao drills just to keep the elbows down and develop hip connections, rather than hinging shoulders....

Ergo the line of force you see WSL doing in CK demos when he does this action is straight from his leg up to elbow throught the hips....ground to jaw.

SLT isnt fully functional until you add the dynamics of motion of CK into the mix, rotation sharply on our axis lines, stepping short explosive bursts to coincde with releasing force. shifting to attack laterally with the same ideas, changing facing lines seamlessly to make lines of force from one dynamic to another....
SLT & CK

When you see this 'lifting punch' its not a lifting punch its simply the aligned striking parrying arm in motion with the body as it faces then turns back still centered facing , always centered :D 1cm or death ;)

I still don't fully understand your guys version of tan punch. Can you please explain it more descriptively please?

[k gledhill]

I still don't fully understand your guys version of tan punch. Can you please explain it more descriptively please?

get a partner to make a tan sao at you. Make a tan sao back so each of you is using the outside of your forearm as a spearing action. Aim at each others jaws, we use chests for impact in drills only..

Now ask the partner to not use a lot of force slow and soft and extend his tan sao at you turning the hand into a vertical palm slowly as he does.

you allow your tan sao to be deflected offline by the partners ...so each of you has a tan using the outside of your forearms , held in tightly to start so the elbows expand away from the centerline...dont use wide elbows and wedge each other , wrong idea...you want to be able to [skinny guys do it best] almost spear your way in.

Now if the partner uses wrong force [why we start soft] you just take your arm away and his will veer offline or try to follow your arm as it leaves, because he is feeling your arm, rather than trying to strike forwards and deflect you....in a mutual soft exchange.

you can see that all he is doing is extending forwards and your arm will veer off line ...as he strikes with more force directly you can try to add counter force ....to see if he is using wrong force, sharply take your arm away and see if he still hits directly at you or chases your arms direction....lat sao chit chung drills also work this way..just take your arm away quickly, push down on it and see if he hits your center or follows your arm....its mutual so dont worry if he hits you, you want him to so he gets the idea and does it for you too...mutual, not fighting for it, letting it happen so you both improve an idea.

so you see you do this back to him...he allows you to deflect his tan sao while you start with tan to a vertical palm ....his arm naturally moves off the centerline because only one can be on the line at once....

now imagine your using your inside of the arm to his tan sao still held out....now you use the inside of your forearm to both displace his and still strike him.

you also see that you cant reach so you step closer and begin to see a different way of thinking about chi-sao...

after a while tan is met with fok a jum strike at rest. while the partner always does the opposite fok meets tan....each rotation you strike each other in rotation, then the opposites..

you fight like this , only with one leading arm at a time, now capable of defelcting and hitting along the center regardless of which angle you address the centerline form

as you become proficient you add more ballistic force with this alignment to the punches.

the chi-sao drills become ways to ensure your developing ko force from our short range...not easy and many mistakes can be made.

whenever you see a tan sao in the forms its a punching elbow starting point...ie tan gan back to tan..hit block hit again, seen in the dummy..wherver the tan or jum point is where your hitting not turning to block

we only turn to face the direction our strikes are going.

tan punch & jum punch

to make a tan punch simply use a fist instead of a v palm but still use the elbow developed as above....thats what we do.
same for jum...fist.

start to spar with these strikes out of chi-sao and you see the ability striking alone has.

[WC1277]

get a partner to make a tan sao at you. Make a tan sao back so each of you is using the outside of your forearm as a spearing action. Aim at each others jaws, we use chests for impact in drills only..

Now ask the partner to not use a lot of force slow and soft and extend his tan sao at you turning the hand into a vertical palm slowly as he does.

you allow your tan sao to be deflected offline by the partners ...so each of you has a tan using the outside of your forearms , held in tightly to start so the elbows expand away from the centerline...dont use wide elbows and wedge each other , wrong idea...you want to be able to [skinny guys do it best] almost spear your way in.

Now if the partner uses wrong force [why we start soft] you just take your arm away and his will veer offline or try to follow your arm as it leaves, because he is feeling your arm, rather than trying to strike forwards and deflect you....in a mutual soft exchange.

you can see that all he is doing is extending forwards and your arm will veer off line ...as he strikes with more force directly you can try to add counter force ....to see if he is using wrong force, sharply take your arm away and see if he still hits directly at you or chases your arms direction....lat sao chit chung drills also work this way..just take your arm away quickly, push down on it and see if he hits your center or follows your arm....its mutual so dont worry if he hits you, you want him to so he gets the idea and does it for you too...mutual, not fighting for it, letting it happen so you both improve an idea.

so you see you do this back to him...he allows you to deflect his tan sao while you start with tan to a vertical palm ....his arm naturally moves off the centerline because only one can be on the line at once....

now imagine your using your inside of the arm to his tan sao still held out....now you use the inside of your forearm to both displace his and still strike him.

you also see that you cant reach so you step closer and begin to see a different way of thinking about chi-sao...

after a while tan is met with fok a jum strike at rest. while the partner always does the opposite fok meets tan....each rotation you strike each other in rotation, then the opposites..

you fight like this , only with one leading arm at a time, now capable of defelcting and hitting along the center regardless of which angle you address the centerline form

as you become proficient you add more ballistic force with this alignment to the punches.

the chi-sao drills become ways to ensure your developing ko force from our short range...not easy and many mistakes can be made.

whenever you see a tan sao in the forms its a punching elbow starting point...ie tan gan back to tan..hit block hit again, seen in the dummy..wherver the tan or jum point is where your hitting not turning to block

we only turn to face the direction our strikes are going.

tan punch & jum punch

to make a tan punch simply use a fist instead of a v palm but still use the elbow developed as above....thats what we do.
same for jum...fist.

start to spar with these strikes out of chi-sao and you see the ability striking alone has.

That's interesting. The first 2/3's of your post is very familiar to me. It was always of my understanding that that concept should be for everything in WC however. The cutting edge.....

Anyway, do you guys ever use tan sau as it is or is it just for developmental purposes and you use tan punch in application? Also, it seems that "switching" wouldn't be as effective if needs be with a tan punch.

We use tan as an attack too. Not a 1-2 but a single beat. Never moves off center, structure moves it and it becomes a palm. The advantage of the tan-palm is that you "cut" twice with one movement. Both inside and outside forearm bone "cut" while a tan punch only "cuts" once(unless you're punching horizontally of course). If an opponent starts to catch your attack and attempt to block it, the tan palm will be more effective due to the opponent will now be working against another "cutting edge" which is really what WC is all about anyway.

See, aiming "true" center all the time on an opponent is not necesarry and highly unrealistic in reality anyway. Anything within the opponents shoulders is ok. In order for "cutting" to work in the first place there has to be an intersect. Hence the "attacking line" and the "blocking line". "Blocking lines"(cutting) face the opponents "attack line" which most of the time is not directly center. In fact, the only thing that matters is that the intersect where you meet your opponents force is inline with the centerline. You could intersect with lowest part(closest to the elbow) of your arm if you wanted to and you'd still have the "line". The hand doesn't point the way to the center, the elbow does.

So to sum it up, using your own concept you explained in your preface, the tan punch wouldn't be the best choice, it just "feels" that way.....

[k gledhill]

That's interesting. The first 2/3's of your post is very familiar to me. It was always of my understanding that that concept should be for everything in WC however. The cutting edge.....

Anyway, do you guys ever use tan sau as it is or is it just for developmental purposes and you use tan punch in application? Also, it seems that "switching" wouldn't be as effective if needs be with a tan punch.

We use tan as an attack too. Not a 1-2 but a single beat. Never moves off center, structure moves it and it becomes a palm. The advantage of the tan-palm is that you "cut" twice with one movement. Both inside and outside forearm bone "cut" while a tan punch only "cuts" once(unless you're punching horizontally of course). If an opponent starts to catch your attack and attempt to block it, the tan palm will be more effective due to the opponent will now be working against another "cutting edge" which is really what WC is all about anyway.

See, aiming "true" center all the time on an opponent is not necesarry and highly unrealistic in reality anyway. Anything within the opponents shoulders is ok. In order for "cutting" to work in the first place there has to be an intersect. Hence the "attacking line" and the "blocking line". "Blocking lines"(cutting) face the opponents "attack line" which most of the time is not directly center. In fact, the only thing that matters is that the intersect where you meet your opponents force is inline with the centerline. You could intersect with lowest part(closest to the elbow) of your arm if you wanted to and you'd still have the "line". The hand doesn't point the way to the center, the elbow does.

So to sum it up, using your own concept you explained in your preface, the tan punch wouldn't be the best choice, it just "feels" that way.....

The explanation I gave isnt how we drill, just to try to make it easier to understand one punch concept , jum being the other.

I cant go further really explaining , your ideas are different in execution. We also use Jum and tactics to work the whole approach.
Chi-sao and its misunderstanding lead many into the realms of touching and chasing arms.

[Yoshiyahu]

The reason I created this thread was discussed if anyone has noticed

Chum Kiu has Uppercuts?

Bil Gee has hooks?

An also how do you apply them? Is it with a bridge, free handed, like a boxer or more on point with the WC principals.


The topic has been derailed...If your lineage doesn't have Hooks and Uppercuts in them that's fine. I'm sure they have stuff in them that traditional WC doesn't have. Its a mute point to put down someones WC because they do Uppercuts or because they don't.

I can know every sifu is different. An everyone interprets things differently. Some see the Uppercuts and Hooks as valuable tools that are inseparable from the Wing Chun since its inception. Others see it as a hindrance or obstacle or confusion which they cant figure out how to get it to work during sparring or chi sau so they take it out or change the application. Each Technique has multiple applications.

For instance a Tok Sau can be an upward push, palm strike or upper punch to jaw?

So every technique can be change. altered or even applied and infinite amount of ways.!

[Yoshiyahu]

check this video out!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB1pqkTgFY4

[Vajramusti]

check this video out!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB1pqkTgFY4
--------------------------------------------
He has the uppercut in there.

[k gledhill]

What part is a "common misconception"?
That WC "hooks" do NOT look like typical boxing hooks? or that WC hooks DON'T raise/lift the elbows like boxing hooks?


Okay so you simply disagree with semantics...well thats fine and dandy...you agree that the upper motion of the rising fist in the center is also a strike...So we are in aggreance!

Your seeing 1:1 not concept., classic case of trying to make sense from watching a clip.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your seeing 1:1 not concept., classic case of trying to make sense from watching a clip.

Actually you dont have to watch a clip if you already know the forms? eh?

ne way buddy...your other qoute proves my point!!!

its exactly what im saying?

[Yoshiyahu]

You see 1:1 as well.....

upper cut is just one application of that technique...just because its closed fist doesnt mean you can change it to a tok sau or break!

[k gledhill]

--------------------------------------------
He has the uppercut in there.

You see 1:1 as well.....

[Yoshiyahu]

You see 1:1 as well.....



So define 1 1? any way...do u not agree that an uppercut is one variation....

[k gledhill]

you see skin and hair = 1:1

[Yoshiyahu]

you see skin and hair = 1:1

What do you see?

[k gledhill]

I see repetition of core concepts and ideas ..not random uppercut.

One sifu upon seeing a frail dying Yip Man make a mistake while filming the MYJ saw something others didnt.... YM accidentally slipped his foot on the knee of the myj and corrected himself. The result was the sifu claiming YM did a triple kick....
He wasnt taught it he 'saw' it.

[Yoshiyahu]

I see repetition of core concepts and ideas ..not random uppercut.

One sifu upon seeing a frail dying Yip Man make a mistake while filming the MYJ saw something others didnt.... YM accidentally slipped his foot on the knee of the myj and corrected himself. The result was the sifu claiming YM did a triple kick....
He wasnt taught it he 'saw' it.

could one use the upper force used as you say to regain center as a punch?

[k gledhill]

The only striking force we do is forwards to a line, except bg. The visual
issue is seeing an elbow up (bong) turn back to elbow
centered as we make a line of force.
Make a bong then lower your elbow without turning your body
and you see the same action we repeat 100000's of times
so its mindless in chi sao.
If you punch from bong before centering your elbow as laap
sao drills you will understand the mistake and weakness.

[wingchunIan]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian- FWIW/IMO- the wing chun way(not the western boxing way) of doing the upper cuts, hooks and ginger fists- do not violate concepts expressed in the kuen kuit. And the building blocks are in the forms. The relevant motions in the forms are mother techniques when you are practicing solo and developing the hand weapons. Varying them and adjusting them depending on what other or others are doing involves relevant(not mechanical) chis sao, lop sao, gor sao,
lat sao and solid and good and coordinated footwork- including micro motions. On the jong there is a section where after a bong you step/turn and from the side you lop and phoenix eye towards the axis of the dummy. Also in the jong there is a step and pak and hook to the gut
section. In the dummy also there is a section where you do dai bong then regular tan and ginger fist the throat. in the BJ there is a section where you control and take down with both hands on your opponent off balancing him and hit with a hook. There is much more.

I don't put down others just because they do things their way. But civil conversations are seldom bad ideas in clarifying a subject.

Good wishes, Joy

Thanks Joy. Sounds like we have completely different versions of both BJ and MYJ.I'd be intruiged to see a post from someone with a vid of themselves / another doing any of the forms with a hook included. As I say, its not the way I train but I'm always interested in other perspectives

[Yoshiyahu]

Another Application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT5fmqSTJP4

I like this video!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEJYvAhRMs&feature=related

Not the video i was looking for but it will due for now!

[k gledhill]

Another Application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT5fmqSTJP4

I like this video!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEJYvAhRMs&feature=related

Not the video i was looking for but it will due for now!


I would not do this hooking....

[EternalSpring]

Another Application

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT5fmqSTJP4

I like this video!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEJYvAhRMs&feature=related

Not the video i was looking for but it will due for now!


I would not do this hooking....

I agree with K gledhill on this one. It's just my opinion/perspective, but the first link doesn't even seem like the normal concept of a "hook" punch to me. It seems more like a variation of a straight punch while turning the entire body and changing the way it faces. Again, I'm not a grandmaster or high level expert, but i think this can be seen by the fact that the in the first video, the guy who threw the hook is completely facing the direction of his hook. He went from facing his opponent to throwing a punch and completely changing the direction that his body is facing. It's *almost* like he's in a chum kiu mah facing sideways (so his line of sight would be perpendicular to his opponent) towards the end. Again, this is my opinion, for all i know that punch could shatter brick walls, but it seems different from the traditional concept with the hook.

The second video was a bit different but *personally* i'm not convinced that such a hook is a good punch. I could be missing a bunch of very subtle movements, but those hooks in the second clip look like they're be much weaker than any straight punch or boxing hook thats thrown. But I can't say as much about the second link because tbh, im judging the way it looks and that doesn't coutn as much because it may feel totally different if i were to get hit by it.

[k gledhill]

I agree with K gledhill on this one. It's just my opinion/perspective, but the first link doesn't even seem like the normal concept of a "hook" punch to me. It seems more like a variation of a straight punch while turning the entire body and changing the way it faces. Again, I'm not a grandmaster or high level expert, but i think this can be seen by the fact that the in the first video, the guy who threw the hook is completely facing the direction of his hook. He went from facing his opponent to throwing a punch and completely changing the direction that his body is facing. It's *almost* like he's in a chum kiu mah facing sideways (so his line of sight would be perpendicular to his opponent) towards the end. Again, this is my opinion, for all i know that punch could shatter brick walls, but it seems different from the traditional concept with the hook.

The second video was a bit different but *personally* i'm not convinced that such a hook is a good punch. I could be missing a bunch of very subtle movements, but those hooks in the second clip look like they're be much weaker than any straight punch or boxing hook thats thrown. But I can't say as much about the second link because tbh, im judging the way it looks and that doesn't coutn as much because it may feel totally different if i were to get hit by it.


Good observations. Exactly why we dont turn ourselves in this manner. In vt we use certain ideas for perpetual attacking ideas.
This involves cycling arms over arms so each can reach with tactical ideas too.
Facing is essential, why we have a form devoted to recovery of this concept.

[Yoshiyahu]

actually in my opinion the boxing hook would have more power...But the videos of abherrations of the way i seen the actual bil gee hook applied. I cant find a video showing the correct structure and movements...but if i do i will be sure to post it...



I agree with K gledhill on this one. It's just my opinion/perspective, but the first link doesn't even seem like the normal concept of a "hook" punch to me. It seems more like a variation of a straight punch while turning the entire body and changing the way it faces. Again, I'm not a grandmaster or high level expert, but i think this can be seen by the fact that the in the first video, the guy who threw the hook is completely facing the direction of his hook. He went from facing his opponent to throwing a punch and completely changing the direction that his body is facing. It's *almost* like he's in a chum kiu mah facing sideways (so his line of sight would be perpendicular to his opponent) towards the end. Again, this is my opinion, for all i know that punch could shatter brick walls, but it seems different from the traditional concept with the hook.

The second video was a bit different but *personally* i'm not convinced that such a hook is a good punch. I could be missing a bunch of very subtle movements, but those hooks in the second clip look like they're be much weaker than any straight punch or boxing hook thats thrown. But I can't say as much about the second link because tbh, im judging the way it looks and that doesn't coutn as much because it may feel totally different if i were to get hit by it.

[k gledhill]

Some sifu add things to their repertoire using the 'private lessons' with YM ploy, allowing for their system to be different to others. You can see more commercial $ activity along with DVD's, etc... lots of grades, belts, etc...lots of extras.

[k gledhill]

WSL : "Yip Man taught in a traditional manner . This meant that Yip Man would give some information only once in a while . If you were not alert and missed the point , then hard lines . He would expect the students to grasp the whole meaning from , maybe , one or two words of explanation . Of course , he welcomed questions and discussions which showed that a student was thinking for himself . Hence the information was not evenly distributed . Some students might get little bits of loose information , whilst others received more information . You had to be able to read between the lines to arrive at an answer . There was no systematic manner of explanation . Grandmaster Yip Man also had a different attitude to that which I have . He used to believe that teaching one good student would be better than teaching ten bad ones . Hence , he would not spend too much time with a student whom he thought not worthy of his time . This is why some teachers of Ving Tsun teach in different manners . From Yip Man's one word of explanation they may have got the wrong meaning which they now pass on . Their grasp of the ideas which Yip Man gave depended very much on their intelligence , attendance to class and on their training attitude . This is not a criticism of Yip Man but rather it reflects the attitude of the time which was very much traditional . Wherever and whomever I have been teaching , it has been my preference to convey the information to all people in attendance . I try to treat everyone equally during my lessons and seminars . If therefore , students are allowed such free interpretation as that which Yip Man allowed then the students may take Ving Tsun as an art . In fact it is a skill . We are not performing for an audience but rather doing a job .

[sanjuro_ronin]

I my time in the MA I have be taught "circular punches" in:
Karate - Kyokushin and Goju
ITF TKD
Hung Kuen
Kali
Boxing
Muay Thai

They were all different and they were all the same.
For example:
In Karate we have, typically, 3 different hooks:
A circular punch called "Mawashi-Tsuki" and a more typical hook called "Kage-Tsuki".
Now, that may look like only two but the Mawashi was done in two ways.
Of course the ridge hand, haito-uchi, was also a "hook".
None of those was a typical boxing hook, though Kage came close.

Point is that a boxing hook is text book ONLY to boxing and it is perfectly valid for any other "hooking" punch to be called a hook.

[k gledhill]

I my time in the MA I have be taught "circular punches" in:
Karate - Kyokushin and Goju
ITF TKD
Hung Kuen
Kali
Boxing
Muay Thai

They were all different and they were all the same.
For example:
In Karate we have, typically, 3 different hooks:
A circular punch called "Mawashi-Tsuki" and a more typical hook called "Kage-Tsuki".
Now, that may look like only two but the Mawashi was done in two ways.
Of course the ridge hand, haito-uchi, was also a "hook".
None of those was a typical boxing hook, though Kage came close.

Point is that a boxing hook is text book ONLY to boxing and it is perfectly valid for any other "hooking" punch to be called a hook.

So you understand why VT doesnt do uppercuts
or hooks ?

[Grumblegeezer]

So you understand why VT doesnt do uppercuts
or hooks ?

In fact I tend to agree, even though as I said earlier, the VT I study does have a type of hook and a variety of "lifting punch" or uppercut. However, these are very specialized techniques reserved for those rare situations in which a straight punch is not the most efficient solution. Many people overuse these techniques under the misconception that since they are taught later, in Chum Kiu and Biu Tze, they must be superior. Actually, it's the other way around. If you can apply a basic centerline punch, then do it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So you understand why VT doesnt do uppercuts
or hooks ?

Because it is incomplete and inferior to those that use a proven weapon?
:D

[YouKnowWho]

Do you train TCMA for your WC style, or do you train it for yourself? There is a difference between:

- WC doesn't do uppercuts and hooks, and
- you don't do uppercuts and hooks.

If you train

- boxing, you will not stop to train your kick, lock, and thorw, or
- MT, you will not stop to train your lock, and thorw., or
- BJJ, you will not stop to train your kick, and punch,

just because your style doesn't offer what you need. What's the major difference between the style of WC and the style of boxing, MT, and BJJ?

[k gledhill]

Do you train TCMA for your WC style, or do you train it for yourself? There is a difference between:

- WC doesn't do uppercuts and hooks, and
- you don't do uppercuts and hooks.

If you train

- boxing, you will not stop to train your kick, lock, and thorw, or
- MT, you will not stop to train your lock, and thorw., or
- BJJ, you will not stop to train your kick, and punch,

just because your style doesn't offer what you need. What's the major difference between the style of WC and the style of boxing, MT, and BJJ?


Do you understand why VT doesnt do uppercuts and hooks ?

[k gledhill]

Because it is incomplete and inferior to those that use a proven weapon?
:D

Ah no, there is a reason..?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah no, there is a reason..?

I studied under two different WC sifus, Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang, both Moy Yat lineage.
Nelson didn't teach hooks and Sunny did.
Now, they were NOT typical boxing hooks, as I point out earlier but they were "hooking punches".
BOTH taught a "uppercuting" strike.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you understand why VT doesnt do uppercuts and hooks ?
I allso understand why a boxer doesn't do hip throw.

The word "style" has no meaning to me. I train for myself. I'm the center, not my style.

I need to use hook punch and upper cut to "set up" many things that I need. To me, it's necessity and not luxury.

[Dragonzbane76]

The word "style" has no meaning to me. I train for myself. I'm the center, not my style.

as it should be IMO. tip my hat to you sir. :)

[k gledhill]

I allso understand why a boxer doesn't do hip throw.

The word "style" has no meaning to me. I train for myself. I'm the center, not my style.

I need to use hook punch and upper cut to "set up" many things that I need. To me, it's necessity and not luxury.

Nothing to do with 'style'.

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree with this guy...

Its the same for boxers. The have uppercuts and hooks. But the tend to use straight punches more...The str8 punches are used to knock you out or set you up for the knock out. The Hook is shorter weapon than str8 punch...if you see how the hook or ginger fist is applied in "Bil Gee" you will then see how it is not like a boxers punch...But i agree its not be all to end all...I dont see uppercuts and hooks emphasis as much as the chain punching and the sun fist. The quickest route to any given point is a straight line...

if your straight line is obstructed surely you can go around...

Be like water, When its path is obstructed it rushes around enveloping its prey. It Crushes, drowns, overwhelms everything in its path. If nothing obstructs it goes straight through and destroys all in its path...if it is walled up it fills up the space and expands around it!


In fact I tend to agree, even though as I said earlier, the VT I study does have a type of hook and a variety of "lifting punch" or uppercut. However, these are very specialized techniques reserved for those rare situations in which a straight punch is not the most efficient solution. Many people overuse these techniques under the misconception that since they are taught later, in Chum Kiu and Biu Tze, they must be superior. Actually, it's the other way around. If you can apply a basic centerline punch, then do it.

[YouKnowWho]

if your straight line is obstructed surely you can go around...

This is why all the circular attacks such as hook punch, roundhouse kick, ... are designed. When your opponent use his arms to cover his face and raise his knee to cover his groin, the only way that you can get him is to "go around" his defense.

Hook punch can also be used for defense. It can interrupt all straight punches. It does have great value.

[Phil Redmond]

TWC does use round punches. And if the opportunity for an uppercut presents itself I will use it. I don't live in a box and don't care what people say any given martial has or doesn't have. If I'm the guy standing after a fight then it's "all" good.

[YouKnowWho]

I did not learn the Jave program language and web design skill in school. Because I needed it at work, I had to learn it all by myself. Today the online search engine is so powerful, anybody can learn almost anything online if he wants to.

If you don't

- have something in your system, that's your system's problem.
- know how to get it, that will be your problem.

[Graham H]

TWC does use round punches.

I would say that traditional wing chun does not use round punches. They have been invented by people that looked through yip mans window! LMAO.

G

[wingchunIan]

When your opponent use his arms to cover his face and raise his knee to cover his groin, the only way that you can get him is to "go around" his defense.



Actually there are at least three other options
1) changing the angle / line of attack through footwork
2) using techniques such as jut sau, lap sau and pak sau to move the defending limb out of the way
3) selecting targets that are not covered to strike (such as as his standing leg etc)

[Graham H]

2) using techniques such as jut sau, lap sau and pak sau to move the defending limb out of the way


Lap Sau is the name of a drill. :confused:

G

[k gledhill]

Lap Sau is the name of a drill. :confused:

G

yes, laap sao is the 'drill', jut is the action.

[Fa Xing]

Actually there are at least three other options
1) changing the angle / line of attack through footwork
2) using techniques such as jut sau, lap sau and pak sau to move the defending limb out of the way
3) selecting targets that are not covered to strike (such as as his standing leg etc)

And what if those aren't available, or not the accessible targets, but the use of a tight hook or uppercut is? Are you gonna say that "well, since my style doesn't have it, I shouldn't" and give up right there? Seems a little silly.

YKW has a good point, just you're not taught something, doesn't mean you shouldn't try going out to learn. Martial arts systems are generally created because someone had an idea to combine some stuff they knew, and create something new. Don't feed into the limited gospel truth just because you are told to.

[Yoshiyahu]

Lap Sau is the name of a drill. :confused:

G

Lop Sau and Jut Sau are drills we practice...

Lop Da and Jut Da are applications we apply in sparring...Do you not use Lop Sau in gor sau?

[wingchunIan]

yes, laap sao is the 'drill', jut is the action.

only according to the terminology that you use, Kevin. Lap sau as a label for a specific technique / movement is well recognised throughout the Wing Chun world. However what someone chooses to call the movement in question is entirely irrelevant to the point that was made in the post and to this thread in general. The point being that Wing Chun as a system contains methods for moving obstacles out of the way or for changing the lines of attack without the need to resort to hooking punches.

[Phil Redmond]

Lap Sau is the name of a drill. :confused:

G
Lop sao is a hand position/technique like pak, bong, or tan. The drill is called lop da.
Lop (grab), da (hit). This isn't from William Cheung btw. It's common knowledge across "most" WC lineages. I've only been doing WC for 41 years but I have learned a few things. ;)

[k gledhill]

Lop Sau and Jut Sau are drills we practice...

Lop Da and Jut Da are applications we apply in sparring...Do you not use Lop Sau in gor sau?


only according to the terminology that you use, Kevin. Lap sau as a label for a specific technique / movement is well recognised throughout the Wing Chun world. However what someone chooses to call the movement in question is entirely irrelevant to the point that was made in the post and to this thread in general. The point being that Wing Chun as a system contains methods for moving obstacles out of the way or for changing the lines of attack without the need to resort to hooking punches.


Lop sao is a hand position/technique like pak, bong, or tan. The drill is called lop da.
Lop (grab), da (hit). This isn't from William Cheung btw. It's common knowledge across "most" WC lineages. I've only been doing WC for 41 years but I have learned a few things. ;)

" recognized by who's VT world ?" the commercial watered down guessing world of VT ?

Whats the difference between Jut sao and Lop sao and when would you use one instead of the other ? two very different actions ....one is in SLT predominantly, The other Bil Gee .

Laap sao is a drill name in chi-sao "Jut" is the action trained in it. You can see the confusion right there for many thinking its LOP sao , ergo .."I must grab your hand and punch.." and thats it :o

I used to think it was also a grab and hit thing :D Grabbing is a bad habit and a common action used by our attackers, like double teaming one arm, it is not a skill to develop. And most will adopt it because they lack a fundamental ability to use Da sao jik siu sao techniques.

The Laap sao drill encompasses many facets of action reaction from Man or Bong.
There are 10 different variations [2 each] from Man or the Bong alone, not including lat sao chit chung and elbow testing / correcting .

Its amazing how important having a centered elbow is to our methods...1 cm .

[Graham H]

LIt's common knowledge across "most" WC lineages.

The one's created by the economy class of Yip Man's students! :D

GH

[wingchunIan]

Lop sao is a hand position/technique like pak, bong, or tan. The drill is called lop da.
Lop (grab), da (hit). This isn't from William Cheung btw. It's common knowledge across "most" WC lineages.

Ironically also including WSL. In his books "Why Wing Chun works" vols 2 & 3 Alan Gibson uses the same description for the same technique and his lineage is WSL. Hey ho.....

[k gledhill]

Ironically also including WSL. In his books "Why Wing Chun works" vols 2 & 3 Alan Gibson uses the same description for the same technique and his lineage is WSL. Hey ho.....

Without going 'point blank' lets just say and I have to reiterate ...

WSL had many visitors and few STUDENTS. GH can attest to one in particular. Some get the ideas some dont.

P Bayer asked WSL why even his own students did things differently to him , in his own class, he responded, " just do as I do " .

Im sure everyone here knows that in their own classes some guys will get things quicker than others or simply miss it altogether...

WSL also mentioned that he wouldnt choose who he taught the ideas too, EVERYONE got the ideas, if they didnt get it, he couldnt force you to understand ...?
Unlike Yip Man , who WSL attests to being a traditionalist who would try to convey the meaning of something in a few words, if you didnt get it ...tough luck.

We are no different.

And just because you wrote a 'book' means little....there are 100's of books on SLT, secrets, applications....blah blah

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is there a particular reason to NOT add a proven and effective strike to ones arsenal?

[Vajramusti]

Is there a particular reason to NOT add a proven and effective strike to ones arsenal?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course not.

There we have it.
Sometimes we just need to keep things simple, direct and effective.
Now, where have I heard that before?
:D

[Phil Redmond]

Is there a particular reason to NOT add a proven and effective strike to ones arsenal?
Of course. The Pole wasn't part of WC, but it is now.

[Phil Redmond]

The one's created by the economy class of Yip Man's students! :D

GH
Wow, I'm happy for you since you have the real WC and the rest of us don't.

[Phil Redmond]

For those who say that WC doesn't grab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa9BUVPZ8-c

[Phil Redmond]

" recognized by who's VT world ?" the commercial watered down guessing world of VT ?

Whats the difference between Jut sao and Lop sao and when would you use one instead of the other ? two very different actions ....one is in SLT predominantly, The other Bil Gee .....
Jut means jerk/snatch. Lop means grab. That's what those words mean in Cantonese. These terms are easy to find on the web. :)

[k gledhill]

Jut means jerk/snatch. Lop means grab. That's what those words mean in Cantonese. These terms are easy to find on the web. :)

Correct.

So why is one in SLT ......JUT

And the other in BG.....LOP

[Phil Redmond]

Correct.

So why is one in SLT ......JUT

And the other in BG.....LOP

What's the passing grade on this test???? :D

[wingchunIan]

Correct.

So why is one in SLT ......JUT

And the other in BG.....LOP

I'll counter with, but they're both in the MYJ form.:)

[Vajramusti]

What's the passing grade on this test???? :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This occasional auditor gets no grades.

The course is not serious.

[Fa Xing]

And what if those aren't available, or not the accessible targets, but the use of a tight hook or uppercut is? Are you gonna say that "well, since my style doesn't have it, I shouldn't" and give up right there? Seems a little silly.

YKW has a good point, just you're not taught something, doesn't mean you shouldn't try going out to learn. Martial arts systems are generally created because someone had an idea to combine some stuff they knew, and create something new. Don't feed into the limited gospel truth just because you are told to.


Is there a particular reason to NOT add a proven and effective strike to ones arsenal?

Thanks for clarifying what I said. It's clear they ignore what they want to. :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Some peoples wing chun dont have grabs and jerks...

Some peoples WC dont have hooks and uppercuts...

Some peoples wing chun doesn't have offensive knee strikes and offensive elbow strikes....



But those of us who wing chun does...dont hate!

[k gledhill]

What's the passing grade on this test???? :D

enlightenment.....; )

[Yoshiyahu]

enlightenment.....; )

You are too closed minded to impart enlightenment!

[k gledhill]

Some peoples wing chun dont have grabs and jerks...

Some peoples WC dont have hooks and uppercuts...

Some peoples wing chun doesn't have offensive knee strikes and offensive elbow strikes....



But those of us who wing chun does...dont hate!


Some peoples ving tsun has no ving tsun... ; ) pure invention.

[Yoshiyahu]

some peoples ving tsun has no ving tsun... ; ) pure invention.

wing chun is an invention

[k gledhill]

wing chun is an invention

:confused: um, okay .

[k gledhill]

Thanks for clarifying what I said. It's clear they ignore what they want to. :rolleyes:

its clear you wouldnt know VT unless it hooked you followed by a swift upper cut, then you would look up and say nice Ving Tsun !...wouldnt you ? :D:D

[k gledhill]

What's the passing grade on this test???? :D

no grades, thats elitist marketing for making $

[Yoshiyahu]

:confused: um, okay .

Im glad you understand....WC was invented at one point in time...infact WC has been innovated and new inventions have been created over the years to make your WC better...

At one point someone invented the Mook Yan Jong

[Fa Xing]

its clear you wouldnt know VT unless it hooked you followed by a swift upper cut, then you would look up and say nice Ving Tsun !...wouldnt you ? :D:D

Haha, you silly man;)! Only if they started with a Jik Chung Choi :D:cool:.

[k gledhill]

wing chun is an invention


Im glad you understand....WC was invented at one point in time...infact WC has been innovated and new inventions have been created over the years to make your WC better...

At one point someone invented the Mook Yan Jong

Can I get a double face palm ?

okay triple facepalm from the masters :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Can I get a double face palm ?

okay triple facepalm from the masters :D

lol your a silly man...

i will be sure to use elbows on you!


http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2010/1/25/elbow-strike.jpg



hmmmm

[k gledhill]

lol your a silly man...

i will be sure to use elbows on you!


http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2010/1/25/elbow-strike.jpg



hmmmm


Looks like Sam Kwok, I met a few times and chisao'd, dont believe the hype...or marketing shots.:D

[trubblman]

Looks like Sam Kwok, I met a few times and chisao'd, dont believe the hype...or marketing shots.:D

Oh yea because VT martial artists never show posed marketing shots of themselves doing pak das, lop das tan das or bong saos for coolness.

[wtxs]

wing chun is an invention

Invention implies some thing new, as in nothing like it ever had exist.

The very basic way we fight/defend, aka martial art of any flavor are born out of basic human survival instinct, adapt and evolved. No one invented martial art, much less than that of Wing Chun.

WC is created from the influence of other Chinese martial arts, or synthesis of other Chinese martial arts, or maybe some one had committed plagiarism.

From Webster - plagiarize: to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.

[Yoshiyahu]

Invention implies some thing new, as in nothing like it ever had exist.

The very basic way we fight/defend, aka martial art of any flavor are born out of basic human survival instinct, adapt and evolved. No one invented martial art, much less than that of Wing Chun.

WC is created from the influence of other Chinese martial arts, or synthesis of other Chinese martial arts, or maybe some one had committed plagiarism.

From Webster - plagiarize: to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.

I SIMPLY DISAGREE...AT ONE POINT THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS TAI CHI CHAUN...nOW THERE IS...BECAUSE SOMEONE INVENTED IT,....

THERE IS A FOUNDER OR CO-FOUNDERS OF WING CHUN...IN ANY CASE DEPENDING ON WHICH LEGEND YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE INVENTED IT...WE CALL THEM THE FOUNDERS!

[wingchunIan]

I SIMPLY DISAGREE...AT ONE POINT THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS TAI CHI CHAUN...nOW THERE IS...BECAUSE SOMEONE INVENTED IT,....

THERE IS A FOUNDER OR CO-FOUNDERS OF WING CHUN...IN ANY CASE DEPENDING ON WHICH LEGEND YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE INVENTED IT...WE CALL THEM THE FOUNDERS!

They are very nice romantic stories but in reality fighting methods have been around since adam was a lad. They evolve and get refined over years but nothing new is ever invented.

[wtxs]

They are very nice romantic stories but in reality fighting methods have been around since adam was a lad. They evolve and get refined over years but nothing new is ever invented.

Thank you for jumping in WCIan.

Some people just don't get it, I'm not an WC subject matter expert, but at least I try to consult the dictionary before flapping my gums.

[Yoshiyahu]

They are very nice romantic stories but in reality fighting methods have been around since adam was a lad. They evolve and get refined over years but nothing new is ever invented.

thanks for your view point!!!

[deejaye72]

hooks might not be part of the orginal training or thought but **** you dont want to get hit with a proper hook punch lol,

[LoneTiger108]

They are very nice romantic stories but in reality fighting methods have been around since adam was a lad. They evolve and get refined over years but nothing new is ever invented.

I agree.

In the story I have heard, it was Leung Bok Toh who 'named' the system 'Wing Chun' in her memory after she died. So no, it's not an invention, it's a continuation from the teachings of Ng Mui (if you believe she even existed), the military skill Wing Chun inherited from her Father and the life time development between husband and wife. A family system basically, which has evolved again and again along it's journey.

And then it was taught to outsiders, and even foreigners!!! So we are where we are... :o

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree.

In the story I have heard, it was Leung Bok Toh who 'named' the system 'Wing Chun' in her memory after she died. So no, it's not an invention, it's a continuation from the teachings of Ng Mui (if you believe she even existed), the military skill Wing Chun inherited from her Father and the life time development between husband and wife. A family system basically, which has evolved again and again along it's journey.

And then it was taught to outsiders, and even foreigners!!! So we are where we are... :o

The system was developed by some body right...even if it was it borrowed from other martial arts that currently existed....WC at one time was a new art...like jeet kune do...which at one time was created by bruce lee...it may have borrowed techniques from boxing, fencing, judo and wing chun...But yet an still it has a creator or founder!

[wtxs]

The system was developed by some body right...even if it was it borrowed from other martial arts that currently existed....WC at one time was a new art...like jeet kune do...which at one time was created by bruce lee...it may have borrowed techniques from boxing, fencing, judo and wing chun...But yet an still it has a creator or founder!


OMG!!!! All this time I though Bruce Lee invented JKD. :eek::rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

OMG!!!! All this time I though Bruce Lee invented JKD. :eek::rolleyes:

Yes he is the founder and inventor!!! very good Daniel Son!

[wtxs]

OMG!!!! All this time I though Bruce Lee invented JKD. :eek::rolleyes:


They are very nice romantic stories but in reality fighting methods have been around since adam was a lad. They evolve and get refined over years but nothing new is ever invented.


...even if it was it borrowed from other martial arts that currently existed....WC at one time was a new art...like jeet kune do...which at one time was created by bruce lee...it may have borrowed techniques from boxing, fencing, judo and wing chun...But yet an still it has a creator or founder!

Lee developed the system of JKD by using and borrowing from other MA - not created or invented by a looooong shoot.

With 15 yrs of MA you still has an head full of faults notions, you must had worn out many of arm chairs my friend, did you had to spent many hours facing the corner of the room?

This many sound extreme - even for me, you think so highly of your self and trying too hard to impress god knows who. You do have some good inputs, but other times you are so full of it that you could be talking out of you CV1.

[Yoshiyahu]

Lee developed the system of JKD by using and borrowing from other MA - not created or invented by a looooong shoot.

With 15 yrs of MA you still has an head full of faults notions, you must had worn out many of arm chairs my friend, did you had to spent many hours facing the corner of the room?

This many sound extreme - even for me, you think so highly of your self and trying too hard to impress god knows who. You do have some good inputs, but other times you are so full of it that you could be talking out of you CV1.

lol invented or developed...in my worldview they mean one and same thing...Before Bruce Lee was born there was No Jun Fan kung fu nor was their any JKD. If he never existed there would be no JKD today...

Before Buddhism there was Jainism. Who invented Buddhism? Who invented Jainism?

The founder of Buddhism was a Jain. The founder of Jainism was a Hindu or Santana Dharma. From Hinduism came Buddhism. With out the founders of Jainism and Buddhism there would only be hinduism.

An from Hinduism and Islam came sikhism. With out the founder of Sikhism there would be no Sikhs. Someone named Mohammed invented islam and jihad. With out the birth of Mohammed there would be no Mecca and Kaaba Stone!

[wtxs]

lol invented or developed...in my worldview they mean one and same thing...Before Bruce Lee was born there was No Jun Fan kung fu nor was their any JKD. If he never existed there would be no JKD today...

I respect in term of your rights to it.

[Yoshiyahu]

I respect in term of your rights to it.

thanks cheerio