Ginger Fist & Phoenix Eye

[Yoshiyahu]

Does your Wing Chun Employ The Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye Fist!!!


Some good condition tools I find for Both are punching a Century Bob, Small Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag. Old School conditioning of course is doing push ups on your ginger fist or phoenix eye. But personally Don't do those. I believe if you do regular push ups you will have power enough. An Punching something with those specific hands will both make it become natural for you and condition your hands at the same time.

Now since I have been on here I have heard people say ginger fisting someone in the body like the ribs or stomach. Personally I prefer Palm strikes below the diaphragm.

Training Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye on the Century Bob is to drill Locational Spots for striking. So you get striking the weak spots so ingrain in your soul you do it on instinct. It becomes second nature.

Training Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye on the Wall Bag is strictly to condition those strikes so you don't hurt your hand hitting someone with them!


Key Spots to hit someone

Ginger Fist - Throat, The Nose,Upper Lip of the nose, The chin, under the eyes, Between the eyes at the bridge of the nose,The neck behind the ears, maybe the temples and the neck under the jaw bone.

Phoenix Eye Fist - The Eyes and Under the eyes, Any specific points on the face repeatedly,The temples, Behind the ears on the neck, and the Diaphragm or wind pipe.


Ginger Fist
http://www.chiquanshu.org/images/hands/leopard_punch.gif


Phoenix Eye Fist
http://www.chiquanshu.org/images/hands/phoenix_eye.gif

[Buddha_Fist]

It's hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere... What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?

:confused:

[Yoshiyahu]

It's hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere... What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?

:confused:

good point...in wing chun you dont fight with your opponent or stuggle...you control him an allow him to show you where to hit....


ne way if you train to hit those spots over and over again on dummy until it becomes second nature...an practice touching those spots when you spar and chi sau...your chances of hitting those spots against a resisting opponent once you have control of becomes greater...but u dont just him him once...u keep hitting him where he is weak!

[Buddha_Fist]

Nice theory!

[Graham H]

Be careful using those Curwen (Kodaly) solfege hand signals. You might have a close encounter of the third kind! :D

G

[imperialtaichi]

It's hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere... What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?

:confused:

In my opinion only:

I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources. If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I'll have to be more specific.

The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it's the cattle thing again.) When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I'll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)

Hence the 4 pillars of Kulo (22pt): Seal (opponent's) arms, control (opponent's) legs, manage (opponent's) momentum/structure, and destroying the opponent's centre/balance. Once achieved, you will have plenty of time to hit the targets (plenty of time means instead on 0.1sec, you may have 0.7sec ;)).

[Hardwork108]

In my opinion only:

I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources. If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I'll have to be more specific.

The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it's the cattle thing again.) When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I'll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)

Hence the 4 pillars of Kulo (22pt): Seal (opponent's) arms, control (opponent's) legs, manage (opponent's) momentum/structure, and destroying the opponent's centre/balance. Once achieved, you will have plenty of time to hit the targets (plenty of time means instead on 0.1sec, you may have 0.7sec ;)).

Great points. I hope that the unenlightened read your post and comprehend why WC and other kung fu styles contain the Phoenix eye, finger strikes, etc.:)

[Graham H]

In my opinion only:

I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources.

The idea of VT is to attack and defend at the same time. We use the elbow for this but if you do not understand this idea then of course you will have a weakened defence.


If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I'll have to be more specific.

I would try to escape. We are not superheros.


The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it's the cattle thing again.)

What would you control exactly against an attacker that is bigger than you and may be waving a blade?


When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I'll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)

Maybe in the training hall but not in the real world pal!................imohhhhho

[Hardwork108]

The idea of VT is to attack and defend at the same time. We use the elbow for this but if you do not understand this idea then of course you will have a weakened defence.

Lot of defensive moves are also control moves.



What would you control exactly against an attacker that is bigger than you and may be waving a blade?

Lets put aside the blade. A simple block or interception can be regarded as a controlling move, no matter what the size of the opponent. Also, by a simple angling change one can also create superior advantage (control?) against a bigger opponent.



Maybe in the training hall but not in the real world pal!................imohhhhho
I don't know about how you train. In my case, you do not really do much until you control the opponent, to avoid counters.

[Phil Redmond]

It's hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere... What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?

:confused:
I thought the same thing until I learned how to do so. It's really not that hard to do.

[Fa Xing]

I like the Pheonix eye fist, I think it's a little better to use when aiming for the throat for self-defense. The only thing that worries me is hitting the cranium, yikes.

[Buddha_Fist]

I thought the same thing until I learned how to do so. It's really not that hard to do.

The thing is this, if you are constantly looking for a couple of specific spots to strike them in a specific way while doing some light sparring with your partner, you may very well be able to pull it off. However, things change a lot with speed. Think non-compliant full contact with a skilled opponent. You won't have the luxury to see a small spot, process with your brain that you need to do a "Phoenix fist" or "Buffalo Eyebrow" or whatever, send the signal to your limb, and land it successfully on that small spot while the other guy is moving quickly and unpredictively trying to take your head off. Waaaay too much complication for when what you really need is a set of simple tools that won't go out the window under such circumstances. Ving Tsun is about efficient simplification, not the opposite.

Beyond feasibility of such strikes in realistic scenarios, you are preoccupying your mind with chasing a specific situation out of the millions that can occur (think position, distance, speed, etc.). In a sense you are chasing hands instead of simply going after the centerline. It is preferrable to remain flexible to continuously adapt to what is going on and taking all chances offered with whatever tool was there to take them. A preoccupied mind cannot do this under big pressure.

Emil

[Grumblegeezer]

Does your Wing Chun Employ The Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye Fist!!!


Some good condition tools I find for Both are punching a Century Bob, Small Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag. Old School conditioning of course is doing push ups on your ginger fist or phoenix eye. But personally Don't do those...

Yeah, we use the Phoenix-eye for soft targets such as the throat and also downward toward the badder. Some may target the eye, but thats risky since you may hit the forehead. The trick is that the Phoenix-eye emerges as you contact the target and rotate your wrist forward and downward (the opposite of the upward wrist snap at the end of a typical "sun" punch). This way you feel that you are on target as you snap your wrist forward driving in the Phoenix-eye. It's really a pretty natural kinetic linkage, expressed against natural targets and not at all like cherry picking tiny vital points.

As far as conditioning, I'd echo a word of caution. After talking with a Pak Mei guy, I foolishly disregarded my VT instructor's advice and embarked on some of what Yoshi calls "old school" conditioning. Approaching my 56th birthday I'd worked up to 2,000 continuous Phoenix-eye punches on the wall bag and could do sets of ten Phoenix-eye push ups on a concrete floor. A month or so after my birthday, I was scarcely able to use my index fingers. Now after several months of rest, I'm almost back to normal. But no more hard style garbage for me! Maybe a younger body can tolerate that stuff, but for me, it's just not worth the risk of permanent disability. Besides, that kind of training is not what VT/WC is about anyway.

[k gledhill]

Yeah, we use the Phoenix-eye for soft targets such as the throat and also downward toward the badder. Some may target the eye, but thats risky since you may hit the forehead. The trick is that the Phoenix-eye emerges as you contact the target and rotate your wrist forward and downward (the opposite of the upward wrist snap at the end of a typical "sun" punch). This way you feel that you are on target as you snap your wrist forward driving in the Phoenix-eye. It's really a pretty natural kinetic linkage, expressed against natural targets and not at all like cherry picking tiny vital points.

As far as conditioning, I'd echo a word of caution. After talking with a Pak Mei guy, I foolishly disregarded my VT instructor's advice and embarked on some of what Yoshi calls "old school" conditioning. Approaching my 56th birthday I'd worked up to 2,000 continuous Phoenix-eye punches on the wall bag and could do sets of ten Phoenix-eye push ups on a concrete floor. A month or so after my birthday, I was scarcely able to use my index fingers. Now after several months of rest, I'm almost back to normal. But no more hard style garbage for me! Maybe a younger body can tolerate that stuff, but for me, it's just not worth the risk of permanent disability. Besides, that kind of training is not what VT/WC is about anyway.

What all that iron phoenix did that to your knuckle ? you need my DVD series ;)

FYI a few years back in London a new Martial Art style came into the news , called Kateda. Long story short, Kateda was a huge con built on the gullible openness of guys seeking to be 'like the masters' .
One of the requirements was to punch a metal plate on the floor....yeah :confused: do knuckle push ups...okay...drive a black car...what ? :D


If you can phoenix an eye why not punch it with more force. If you can poke a single knuckle in an intercostal muscle , why not break the ribs with a punch ?
:confused:

[Grumblegeezer]

If you can phoenix an eye why not punch it with more force. If you can poke a single knuckle in an intercostal muscle , why not break the ribs with a punch ?:confused:

Stop it with the logic, already!!!!:D

[Eric_H]

My 2cents, whatever they're worth.

Specialized tools like this can be employed, but their employment is far more limited and in this case the consequences of using them are pretty harsh. You phoenix eye fist someone in the eye - they're not likely to be coming back for more. Chances are you will burst the eye, and in the old days that was usually the end for your opponent. If the shock didn't kill him, the likely infection probably would.

IMO specialized fist employment (to reduce risk of damaging your own weapons) typically comes after a certain degree of control is gained - you most likely wouldn't use them in free striking engagement.

In regards as to what phoenix eyes do to the ribs, it's more than just jacking one intercostal - they can break ribs and sublux others simultaneously if the right amount of torque is applied (I had a sihing who did this to someone is a self defense situation) basically shutting down the ability of the side of the body to respond in a normal matter. Someone who has some decent muscle mass in the rib area can shrug off a solid punch - there's no shrugging the phoenix eye off, it's too sharp.

[imperialtaichi]

The thing is this, if you are constantly looking for a couple of specific spots to strike them in a specific way while doing some light sparring with your partner, you may very well be able to pull it off. However, things change a lot with speed. Think non-compliant full contact with a skilled opponent. You won't have the luxury to see a small spot, process with your brain that you need to do a "Phoenix fist" or "Buffalo Eyebrow" or whatever, send the signal to your limb, and land it successfully on that small spot while the other guy is moving quickly and unpredictively trying to take your head off. Waaaay too much complication for when what you really need is a set of simple tools that won't go out the window under such circumstances. Ving Tsun is about efficient simplification, not the opposite.

Beyond feasibility of such strikes in realistic scenarios, you are preoccupying your mind with chasing a specific situation out of the millions that can occur (think position, distance, speed, etc.). In a sense you are chasing hands instead of simply going after the centerline. It is preferrable to remain flexible to continuously adapt to what is going on and taking all chances offered with whatever tool was there to take them. A preoccupied mind cannot do this under big pressure.

Emil

Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.

An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.

The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.

[Buddha_Fist]

Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.

An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.

The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.

Fantasy-Fu!

[imperialtaichi]

Fantasy-Fu!

Well, if you are happy with what you are doing, good luck. Everyone has a choice.

[wingchunIan]

Fantasy-Fu!

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

[k gledhill]

I tried to eye jab a guy in a barfight once while doing bouncing work. A fight broke out between 6-7 guys and 3 security. Each security guy became isolated as they where attacked by a gang of trouble makers in there late 20-early 30's . I ended up backing up facing 3 at once.....
The guy and 2 others where coming at me in a line down a narrow channel between a wall to my left and to my right bar tables packed with drinking punters, packed with people so there where limited options for space, good for me :D... they all came shoulder to shoulder so there was no 'first come first served...' .
I tried to eye jab the guy to the right to fend him off and missed the first time then did a inch shot again and hit him 'somewhere', enough so he turned his head away. I then pivoted as Bil Gee from an extended right arm and recovered my elbow and punched the guy to the far left who had then stepped forwards to hit me....I hit him solid on the jaw and he went down. The guy in the center started to yell for me to leave him alone, iow dont hit him again.
Long story short, the eye shot is so small and exact, its better to just jab a guy in the face as a messer, what jabs do :D without commitment to further entry due to multiple opponents. IF you hit the eye great, but you cant go searching for it, as the saying goes :D cause you'll never find it when you need it, like a cab in the rain.In class you can do it all day...when you dont need a cab there's 100's :rolleyes:

3 on 1 against skinny me :D they didnt know I knew VT so came wide open...no 1 cm ;)

[k gledhill]

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

Im not closing my mind to options, but the mechanics of a phoenix eye just seem the complete opposite to the mindless ways we train to execute in fights. Just hitting with sufficient force in our ways takes a lot of focus...then asking a guy in lightning speeds to change and think ...oh I will hit the temple next time he comes at me with a phoenix knuckle ....can you see my point ?

Sure guys will show isolated nerve shots and its all good but its in an environment of friends , no pressure to survive the moment without anytime to think.
Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear :D and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D

Nothing personal about the obtuse remark, I should have clarified myself .

[Buddha_Fist]

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view.

No insult - just my opinion about this kind of theories! ;)



I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

No. There's a huge difference from what a boxer does to what is being advocated here: A boxer resorts to the same tool (his good old punch) no matter what angle, distance, position, or timing dealt with. He targets larger areas with the same tool and it will do damage no matter whether he got you anywhere on the head or anywhere on the body. He keeps it simple (Ving Tsun!) and does not have to think first about whether to cross his fingers in a certain way before striking, nor is he looking continuously for that small spot on the inside of your left forearm...

[CFT]

Arguing against the phoenix eye and ginger fists, other than the extra requirement of specialised conditioning, is illogical to me. If you train it, why would there be a problem in recognizing when to engage it when the opportunity presents itself?

Do you have a problem deciding when to use a palm instead of a punch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I train the PE fist, I use it well and it works for me.

[Vajramusti]

Differing opinions without insulting other established POVs is ok with me.

If you know how to use the ginger fist and the phoenix eye with short power- they should not be used in bar fights and similar skirmishes. Good reasons why IM didn't teach them in the general public classes. Often people don't even know how to make a fist or a phoenix eye fist. And- you don't just focus on large potruding knuckle.the whole fist, the elbow and the arm and the body have their
unified roles.

joy chaudhuri

PS- Sanjuro had a nice vid on his phoenix eye- a while back

[k gledhill]

So where is ginger fist in slt, and phoenix eye...?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So where is ginger fist in slt, and phoenix eye...?

You're not suggesting that WC is only what is in its forms, are you?

[Vajramusti]

I train the PE fist, I use it well and it works for me.
----

You had a great vid on your usage,

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

----

You had a great vid on your usage,

joy

Thanks Joy,
I have had the pleasure of learning "force multipliers" from a few different perspectives and they ALL had their merits ( and cons of course).
Regardless of the principles of use one learns when introduced to them, how one ends up using them is based on how they are trained ( and forged) and used in sparring.
The PE fist in Hung Kuen is different from WC as WC is different from SPM.
Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different.
Speciality kungs are just that and as such, they need to be tailored to the individual WITHIN the context of their system.

[Lucas]

sorry guys...:eek:

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/blueninja/GingerKids.JPG

[k gledhill]

Arguing against the phoenix eye and ginger fists, other than the extra requirement of specialised conditioning, is illogical to me. If you train it, why would there be a problem in recognizing when to engage it when the opportunity presents itself?

Do you have a problem deciding when to use a palm instead of a punch?

Palms coincide with the slt elbow ideas and we train them in many ways.
In chisao we use tan to vrt palm to make our elbows displace.

Horizontal palm / jum elbow in
Vertical palm / tan elbow out

[k gledhill]

You're not suggesting that WC is only what is in its forms, are you?

Where do you put them ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where do you put them ?

In the curriculum.
If a system only had what was in their forms then WC would have no knees and Karate would have no roundhouse kicks ( neither would the vast majority of TCMA).

[YouKnowWho]

In the curriculum.
If a system only had what was in their forms then WC would have no knees and Karate would have no roundhouse kicks ( neither would the vast majority of TCMA).

Why is a certain move not in the forms if a system use it? How can you tell that the famous saying "To be is to do, to do is to be" came from Shakespeare if we can't find that sentence exists in any of his play?

[Yoshiyahu]

Phoenix Eye Fist doesn't just strike the eye...If you hit the neck, temples, throat or chest with it repeately with hard strikes you will hurt them...

Specifically the Phoenix Eye fist is for striking the face below the forehead....Striking with one solid hard knuckle can definitie do some damamge!

[k gledhill]

Phoenix Eye Fist doesn't just strike the eye...If you hit the neck, temples, throat or chest with it repeately with hard strikes you will hurt them...

Specifically the Phoenix Eye fist is for striking the face below the forehead....Striking with one solid hard knuckle can definitie do some damamge!

the logic is ....if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead ...why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?

just asking ?

I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.

[Vajramusti]

Why is a certain move not in the forms if a system use it? How can you tell that the famous saying "To be is to do, to do is to be" came from Shakespeare if we can't find that sentence exists in any of his play?-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shakespeare also had the famous wing chun phrase "As you like it didnt he"? And in Othello he also talks about the wing chun guy who threw a pearl away- not knowing what it was didn't he.?

Wing chun forms are NOT a collection of techniques-they are fundamental developmental motioms from which competent wing chun people can derive operational techniques.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

I doubt you would be able to knock out the average joe with your first punch....Not even Mike Tyson was that good!!!



the logic is ....if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead ...why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?

just asking ?

I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.

[Fa Xing]

I doubt you would be able to knock out the average joe with your first punch....Not even Mike Tyson was that good!!!

Are you sure? (http://youtu.be/cFt_k-8yTIg)

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you sure? (http://youtu.be/cFt_k-8yTIg)

i was talking to kdell

[k gledhill]

I doubt you would be able to knock out the average joe with your first punch....Not even Mike Tyson was that good!!!

Welcome to Ving Tsun ! focus your line of force on a centerline that will absorb all your force and behold you become a more efficient direct striker. Incorporating simultaneous attacking and defensive actions in these formidable striking attacks end fights quicker than you ever thought possible ~! and more ;)

um yes...if you dont think I can send you sliding 6 ft back on your ar s e then watch inch punching demos by just a bout every VT guy and his mom :D
Inch punching is a way to prove the force line :D
if I can inch punch you into a chair several ft behind you, you dont think I can do that with a 100% full force strike to your jaw from a foot or more away ?


I have front kicked guys through the air like bowling pins ....same ideas as punching.

most of you can take my word about VT's force line in real execution , except the muppet heckler Frost my forum nemesis, he needs hat cam proof. :D

[Fa Xing]

i was talking to kdell

Yeah, so, it's a public forum. PM or get a room (:p) if you want something private.

[Yoshiyahu]

i doubt you can knock people out like that with the first punch on a consistance basis...atleast not against someone who is really aggressively fighting you...If he stands there waiting for the hit maybe...But as for pushing force...well any one can do that!!! with enough practice...When i say knock out i dont mean send some flying or stumbling backwards from the velocity force causing the momentum to make them stumble for balance...

When i say knock out i mean hit them hard enough to where the room goes black and they fall straight to floor like the twin towers. I mean the collaspe and fall where you hit that at,...Not three to five feet away!




Welcome to Ving Tsun ! focus your line of force on a centerline that will absorb all your force and behold you become a more efficient direct striker. Incorporating simultaneous attacking and defensive actions in these formidable striking attacks end fights quicker than you ever thought possible ~! and more ;)

um yes...if you dont think I can send you sliding 6 ft back on your ar s e then watch inch punching demos by just a bout every VT guy and his mom :D
Inch punching is a way to prove the force line :D
if I can inch punch you into a chair several ft behind you, you dont think I can do that with a 100% full force strike to your jaw from a foot or more away ?


I have front kicked guys through the air like bowling pins ....same ideas as punching.

[k gledhill]

i doubt you can knock people out like that with the first punch on a consistance basis...atleast not against someone who is really aggressively fighting you...If he stands there waiting for the hit maybe...But as for pushing force...well any one can do that!!! with enough practice...When i say knock out i dont mean send some flying or stumbling backwards from the velocity force causing the momentum to make them stumble for balance...

When i say knock out i mean hit them hard enough to where the room goes black and they fall straight to floor like the twin towers. I mean the collaspe and fall where you hit that at,...Not three to five feet away!

You can never be sure, just hit them until they change their altitude and attitude .

Some go quicker than others...

[imperialtaichi]

Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear :D and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D

Good point. That's why I always say, techniques fail. The more complex it is, the more it fails. Habits is what we rely on, because it's the only thing that carries through when we are under stress. When we are too pumped full of adrenalin to think.

Of course, we should always try to stay calm and clear headed. Easier said than done ;)

[Hardwork108]

Of course, we should always try to stay calm and clear headed. Easier said than done ;)

True and that is what a lot of TCMAs try to achieve at the higher level training. This important fact seems to have escaped to "let's use adrenaline to our advantage" crowd. ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

The pheonix eye is a simple gouge weapon and I don't think it is a good one at that. Now, the ginger fist, that is different. It is a weapon of destruction, but not a knockout weapon. I had a friend growing up that fought that way. He did it naturally. He would stand square with you, both hands up in front of his face, elbows in close, and would rush in and start chopping downward with one and then the other, so fast that you would not be able to block,pary, or dodge. If he caught you with one it was just hard enough to stun you and it was all over except the severe beating.
I have never seen anything that could inflict as much injury to a face as the ginger fist. He fought a big fat boy that was close to being an albino. Snow white hair, pale blue eyes, almost white skin. Big boy and some thought to be tough. My bud put about 700 stitches in his face and head with that chopping blow. He could swing it fast like doing chain punches. All that red on white was an awesome thing to see.
The problem with this method of hitting is that in the downward blow you will end up quickly getting into the bottom teeth and that will cut your knuckles to hamburger meat. My friends stayed infected and swollen all the time. He cut his knuckles in every single fight he had and he had probably more fights than anyone I ever met.

[imperialtaichi]

You can never be sure, just hit them until they change their altitude and attitude .

Some go quicker than others...

In Kulo (22pt) a common strategy is to strike strike strike strike strike to force the opponent to deal with you and not to give him a chance to even breathe.

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

Well at least that's the plan... of which everyone has one until you get hit.

[WC1277]

I don't know what the big stink is against ginger fist or Phoenix eye. Maybe it's just my lineage but it comes very naturally to us.

You use a ginger fist whenever you lost your elbow(raised) and you're coming back to center from being overturned. The elbow pulls in as your fist whips back. It's the only attack you can do when you lost your structure that way. :confused: It can also be used when doing an outside whip. For instance, you're rushed, you barely intercept one arm as you step to get of the way and "whip" with a unified body. A punch wouldn't have nearly the same power. You also use it when you lop someone and they overturn themselves. They'll take away power from your punch when they turn too much, intentionally or not, hence enter ginger fist.

Phoenix eye is really only useful as an outside whip at a particular angle to the ribs. To me when that opening presents itself, I don't even think about it, my fist just does it on its own. In fact, both of these techniques aren't conscious thoughts.

[k gledhill]

In Kulo (22pt) a common strategy is to strike strike strike strike strike to force the opponent to deal with you and not to give him a chance to even breathe.

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

Well at least that's the plan... of which everyone has one until you get hit.

Our objective is to turn them with their own actions or make them turn....fight 1/2 the person.

[imperialtaichi]

We also aim at multiple striking the opponent to off balance him; a strong opponent can throw heavy strikes and can take strikes when balanced. When off balanced, at least his power is decreased and his ability to take strikes also decreases.

In Kulo (22) we train with 2 sets of targets: Primarily the set of targets that controls the opponent's balance and structure (to be honest, these are bio-mechanical points thats mostly common sense). The secondary set (less important) is the targets that causes maximum damage to the opponent. Most control points and damage points do not overlap, with a few exceptions.

We have a number of drills which cultivates the correct habits. As soon as we contact an opponent our hands, feet and elbows go there automatically without thinking. They are very easy to get to. And because most people are not aware of them, your opponent most of the time would not even know they are in trouble until too late.

Damage points, however, everyone knows so everyone will naturally defence against them, which make striking these points very difficult unless the opponent is already losing.

Of course, these controlling points are areas and not dots as it would not be very practical if they are hard to get to the first place.

[imperialtaichi]

Our objective is to turn them with their own actions or make them turn....fight 1/2 the person.

Ah, so true. Our interpretation of "Side Body Wing Chun" is not that we turn our body to the side, but we turn the opponent's body to the side or we move to the opponent's blind side.

[k gledhill]

Ah, so true. Our interpretation of "Side Body Wing Chun" is not that we turn our body to the side, but we turn the opponent's body to the side or we move to the opponent's blind side.

with ballistic [ newtons cradle ] techniques we fight the vertical axis line with the levers presented to us...we just spin the guy so his other arm has to reach around...it also makes us aware of whats going to be coming next....to turn that too;)

another thing we dont do is move away from the attack, we create a strong axis line in all directions aka CK we bcome very strong in alignment maintenance..iow we have to be solid in mobile foundations to be able to have this ability to control another axis..or control our own loss of facing , balance etc...critical to our thinking so we spend hours doing the seunma toi ma with variations and tests to make us solid when we contact or redirect forces...
If we move too much ourselves we lose that 'point' to make guys turn from us..instead if we move away they can follow and fill the gap themselves...subtle but what we base our fighting on lat sao chit chung.

[Hardwork108]

the logic is ....if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead ...why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?

It is not about doing six phoenix eyes to someone's forhead. It is about using one Phoenix Eye strike to disable the opponent. If you train that enough, then you will be able to use it, as other TCMAs styles do with this technique. It is just one more addition to your arsenal, in the same way as the Dragon Fist and Leopard Fist, which are also taught in the Mainland Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.


just asking ?
You don't ask, you don't learn. :)


I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.

It is and good point, but there are Wing Chun lineages that practice it as they do the Dragon Fist, Leopard Fist, corkscrew punchs to the throat and kneck area; downward straight yang fist to the lower stomack/bladder area; hammer fist, etc.

I would only add that the distinct and not so well known, body unity concepts/training Southern Praying Mantis and related styles such as Pak Mei, make their Phoenix Eye strikes somewhat more effective than that of Wing Chun, after all these styles put more emphasis in such techniques..

[k gledhill]

It is not about doing six phoenix eyes to someone's forhead. It is about using one Phoenix Eye strike to disable the opponent. If you train that enough, then you will be able to use it, as other TCMAs styles do with this technique. It is just one more addition to your arsenal, in the same way as the Dragon Fist and Leopard Fist, which are also taught in the Mainland Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.


You don't ask, you don't learn. :)



It is and good point, but there are Wing Chun lineages that practice it as they do the Dragon Fist, Leopard Fist, corkscrew punchs to the throat and kneck area; downward straight yang fist to the lower stomack/bladder area; hammer fist, etc.

I would only add that the distinct and not so well known, body unity concepts/training Southern Praying Mantis and related styles such as Pak Mei, make their Phoenix Eye strikes somewhat more effective than that of Wing Chun, after all these styles put more emphasis in such techniques..


Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 :D, plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

[Hardwork108]

Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 :D, plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

You, and most "Wing Chun" out there it seems......;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Ah! the ol' dragon and leopard fists 99 :D, plus ginger fist, phoenix eye AND uppercuts with hooks.....We dont do those, simple answer.

What lineage of WC are you?

[k gledhill]

What lineage of WC are you?

Yip Man > Victor Kan
...............................> Me
YM > WSL > P Bayer

[Lee Chiang Po]

You, and most "Wing Chun" out there it seems......;)

I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it's true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it's own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138879
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it's true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it's own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I respect your wing chun and experience but you dont do Ip man wing chun. Both in Foshan and to selected students in HK, IP Man showed the use of the phoenix eye with the proper formation.Details matter.. It is powerful and penetrating when used properly and it is done with a wing chun body structure.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Yip Man > Victor Kan
...............................> Me
YM > WSL > P Bayer




So Bayer was your instructor who told you WC has no Hooks or Uppercuts?

[Yoshiyahu]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I respect your wing chun and experience but you dont do Ip man wing chun. Both in Foshan and to selected students in HK, IP Man showed the use of the phoenix eye with the proper formation.Details matter.. It is powerful and penetrating when used properly and it is done with a wing chun body structure.

joy chaudhuri

Why then do so many WC lineage people not believe in the uppercut and hooks?

[Vajramusti]

Why then do so many WC lineage people not believe in the uppercut and hooks?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe they didn't learn them..Ip man did not turn out students with cookie cutters.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe they didn't learn them..Ip man did not turn out students with cookie cutters.

joy chaudhuri

What about those who sifus have the techniques in their forms..

[Vajramusti]

What about those who sifus have the techniques in their forms..
----------------------------
you have to ask them. I try not to run down other top flight sifus

[Hardwork108]

I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it's true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it's own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.

An eye gouge can disable someone for good, in the same way as a Phoenix Eye strike to the eye ball. Of course these are to be used in exterem circumstances and not some casual fight.

The techniques contained in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice are WC techniques as far as this lineage is concerned. So, the Phoenix Eye; the Dragon Fist; the Tiger Claw, as well as other uncommon to mainstream WC, are studied. There is also an extensive study of Chin-na and even ground fighting, and of course, Iron skills.

Generally, to complete the curriculum of this lineage takes between 6 to 8 years. :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

An eye gouge can disable someone for good, in the same way as a Phoenix Eye strike to the eye ball. Of course these are to be used in exterem circumstances and not some casual fight.

The techniques contained in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice are WC techniques as far as this lineage is concerned. So, the Phoenix Eye; the Dragon Fist; the Tiger Claw, as well as other uncommon to mainstream WC, are studied. There is also an extensive study of Chin-na and even ground fighting, and of course, Iron skills.

Generally, to complete the curriculum of this lineage takes between 6 to 8 years. :)

I guess since my dad came from Canton his Wing Chun is mainland? Either way, I asked about such things, but self care is as important as preventing someone else from hurting you. A pheonix eye was called something else, but I was told that it could not bare the same power and the finger knuckles were subject to injury if struck against hard bone by accident. I can not apply as much power behind the strike as I can with the proper fist. And as for the ginger fist, I have personally seen the cut injuries that occur when it is used extensively.
I was called down many times for doing hooks. A hook is just that. It hooks around, but this shortens it's range. A curled arm is shorter than a straight out arm. Also, it can only be as strong as the arm itself and the speed in which it moves. It seriously limits your reach and it seriously limits the power you can put into it. Wing Chun is about efficiency and applying your greatest power. Anything short of that is poor in efficiency. A hook comes from the outside and across.
Also, a Wing Chun punch does not have to come from the heart. It can come straight off the shoulder and be just as powerful. An uppercut can be just as effective as it usually follows directly up the center line, but a hook does not.

[EternalSpring]

Also, it can only be as strong as the arm itself and the speed in which it moves. It seriously limits your reach and it seriously limits the power you can put into it.

For the record, I still train Ving Tsun as my primary art and devote the most time to it (dont want it to seem like im here to talk against Ving Tsun or promote any other art), although I have been boxing for about 3 months (yea i know, its not long), and I gotta say, I dont think this is true about the hook. It's most certainly not just "as strong as the arm itself." The hips and legs have a huge role in the power of the hook. A hook thrown as "the arm swinging by itself" would be, at least from what i learned, terrible technique and execution of the hook.

[wingchunIan]

I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it's true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it's own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.

Although my own lineage doesn't train phoenix eye or ginger fist, they are original Wing Chun techniques reffered to in the texts and Kuit kuen. Ip Man refined the art alot, especially during the 50's so those who learned earlier and didn't change or those of non Ip Man lineage will still have them.

[wingchunIan]

Im not closing my mind to options, but the mechanics of a phoenix eye just seem the complete opposite to the mindless ways we train to execute in fights. Just hitting with sufficient force in our ways takes a lot of focus...then asking a guy in lightning speeds to change and think ...oh I will hit the temple next time he comes at me with a phoenix knuckle ....can you see my point ?

Sure guys will show isolated nerve shots and its all good but its in an environment of friends , no pressure to survive the moment without anytime to think.
Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear :D and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D

Nothing personal about the obtuse remark, I should have clarified myself .

All fair comments and having been in more "situations" than I care to admit I share your concern about fine motor skills or pre planning. As i say i don't personally train phoenix eye or ginger fist as i think I have enough options with punches, palms, spade hands, fak sau / mun sau and fingers and thumbs, but I can also see where they might be useful. For example I've often changed a palm strike into a thumb to the eye or fingers into the eyes after landing the original shot (using BJ energy but I don't really think about it at the time). Likewise I've often ended up with my hand in such a place as the nearest target is the throat and fak sau / mun sau (its often half and half because of where the hand starts and the crappiness of technique on such occassions) just pops out. In a similar way I could see how phoenix eye or ginger fist could have application from contact when the distance to the target is short and there is very little chance of missing. Both techniques allow force to be delivered using a smaller surface area hence creating greater pressure for the same force and an increased liklihood of causing damage. They would however have to be trained to the same extent as other techniques to make them come out naturally when under pressure.

[wingchunIan]

No insult - just my opinion about this kind of theories! ;)



No. There's a huge difference from what a boxer does to what is being advocated here: A boxer resorts to the same tool (his good old punch) no matter what angle, distance, position, or timing dealt with. He targets larger areas with the same tool and it will do damage no matter whether he got you anywhere on the head or anywhere on the body. He keeps it simple (Ving Tsun!) and does not have to think first about whether to cross his fingers in a certain way before striking, nor is he looking continuously for that small spot on the inside of your left forearm...

Actually I beg to differ. Saying a boxer resorts to the same weapon regardless of angle is simply not true. Jab, cross, uppercut, hook are all fundamentally different. Add in the distance and targetting and an upper cut to teh jaw of an opponent is very different in angle and line of power to the same shot done to the solar plexus. A hook to the temple has very different angles, elbow positions and lines of force to a hook done to the floating rib or liver. Good boxers don't just aim at big areas and hit willy nilly. My old boxing coach could hit my floating rib and solar plexus at will with pin point accuracy.
I totally agree that aiming for tiny "pressure points" or spots on the inside of the arm as you refer to them, from no contact is utter nonesense, but the ability to see a target and select the best weapon for the job instinctively comes with training and is what we all do when we flow from punches to elbows or choose palms or fak, and a good boxer does when in close he selects the uppercut instead of the jab.
Although my lineage doesn't use them, I'm not inclined to dismiss the tools just because the way some people choose to employ them is flawed.

[LoneTiger108]

Unless somebody here can explain the origin of these refined methods, I think we're all wasting our time either trying to justify them or not! :eek:

Why are they in Wing Chun at all?

[wingchunIan]

Unless somebody here can explain the origin of these refined methods, I think we're all wasting our time either trying to justify them or not! :eek:

Why are they in Wing Chun at all?

Spencer, if you check the original kuit kuen etc there is reference to both the ginger fist and phoenix eye fist so they were clearly in the system at some point.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, if you check the original kuit kuen etc there is reference to both the ginger fist and phoenix eye fist so they were clearly in the system at some point.

You're right, they are represented in the Kuen Kuit, but why? Where does this hand structure originate and how do we actually drill it's use without killing our students??!! ;)

[EternalSpring]

You're right, they are represented in the Kuen Kuit, but why? Where does this hand structure originate and how do we actually drill it's use without killing our students??!! ;)

I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it'd probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.

As for how it's trained, I'd say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we'd train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).

That's my take on it, although I'm sure there are many differences in opinion as I've met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I've met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the "pocket" formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I've learned). Now that i've typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.


How I train my phoenix eye:
http://oi56.tinypic.com/1zvg551.jpg
How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/17ahpk.jpg

Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

[Fa Xing]

How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/17ahpk.jpg

Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

I've used this one when training, but as I have said before, I think there's too much of risk of damaging the knuckle.

That being said, it may just depend on conditioning because I can hit with a regular fist and not being injured where those who don't condition it at all. :cool:

[Vajramusti]

I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it'd probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.

As for how it's trained, I'd say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we'd train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).

That's my take on it, although I'm sure there are many differences in opinion as I've met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I've met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the "pocket" formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I've learned). Now that i've typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.


How I train my phoenix eye:
http://oi56.tinypic.com/1zvg551.jpg
How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/17ahpk.jpg

Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.

And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.

joy chaudhuri

[EternalSpring]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.

And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.

joy chaudhuri

Nice, so that's even more variation out there (which is a good thing imo, more perspectives and energies to learn about)! TBH, im wondering if my phoenix eye is complete because while i train it like that, my sifu refers to it sometimes as the phoenix eye and sometimes as "leeng kuen (training fist)." I guess I'll find out over time if the way I do it is just a stage in the process of training it.

And yea, the way I learned ginger fist (at least as of now) is also different enough that I didn't even want to risk taking a picture of that one lol. Plus that fist is still fairly new to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

[Fa Xing]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

[EternalSpring]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

Thanks, i was hoping someone who trained the fist in the second picture could elaborate a bit because I dont actually train that way and was just imitating what I was shown by friends. I never knew that they do it the same way in (tibetian?) Lama. I heard that they used parts of the thumb as a striking point even in other fists but this def gave me a way to relate/understand that better.

And thanks for the input on the striking point, i def didn't explain that well lol. I agree that there's more than the tip of the knuckle that's used. My understanding on it is def still nowhere near a high level but I do remember my sifu explaining how it's not just a hard stabbing motion using the bent index finger

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks, i was hoping someone who trained the fist in the second picture could elaborate a bit because I dont actually train that way and was just imitating what I was shown by friends. I never knew that they do it the same way in (tibetian?) Lama. I heard that they used parts of the thumb as a striking point even in other fists but this def gave me a way to relate/understand that better.

And thanks for the input on the striking point, i def didn't explain that well lol. I agree that there's more than the tip of the knuckle that's used. My understanding on it is def still nowhere near a high level but I do remember my sifu explaining how it's not just a hard stabbing motion using the bent index finger

Here you go, my view on the PE fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzmoaCTcXY

[EternalSpring]

Here you go, my view on the PE fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzmoaCTcXY

****, unfortunately I cant see it for some reason

on another note, i didn't know you could make youtube videos that wouldn't be listed and could only be seen if the link was given out, that's pretty cool

[sanjuro_ronin]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

[EternalSpring]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

oh wow, very insightful video. I never looked at it like that, in fact, I always wondered how people did push ups on the phoenix eye until now. Thank you!

[Fa Xing]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

Cool, will have to give that a try later today.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How I use the IP bag for conditoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q2bdeTraU4

On the punching bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1kjj7ib00

I also use a hanging steel shot bag and sometimes a hanging padded post.

[Frost]

How I use the IP bag for conditoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q2bdeTraU4

On the punching bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1kjj7ib00

I also use a hanging steel shot bag and sometimes a hanging padded post.

always love seeing those clips.......any chance of you shooting some more :):)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I've been meaning to do a few Heavy bag clips, some on the wooden dummy and on the "anatomical dummy".
Just need to find the time and sweet talk the missus into video it on her playbook.

[Frost]

Yeah, I've been meaning to do a few Heavy bag clips, some on the wooden dummy and on the "anatomical dummy".
Just need to find the time and sweet talk the missus into video it on her playbook.

just pt the vest on and flex your guns that should do it :)

in all seriousness would be good to see but i understand time is not an easy thing to come by

[Yoshiyahu]

I love how this topic has blossumed...Now people are engaging and sharing info on the various ways they train the Phoenix eye with out all that disruptive bashing!

[EternalSpring]

How I train my phoenix eye:
http://oi56.tinypic.com/1zvg551.jpg
How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/17ahpk.jpg

Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

It's been a while, but I figured I might as well go back to this thread since my training today blew my mind on this topic. Turns out the way I had been doing the phoenix eye (in the first pic) was not actually what we call the "phoenix eye" according to my sifu, and instead was a training fist that has now led to me doing it in a more similar fashion to the second picture. Whether this fist changes into something else with time, i dont know, but the phoenix eye is freaking awesome.

and thanks once again to sanjuro ronin, viewing his youtube vids again from my more recent perspective definitely refreshed my mind on how i could train my phoenix eye to be better.

[Hendrik]

It's been a while, but I figured I might as well go back to this thread since my training today blew my mind on this topic. Turns out the way I had been doing the phoenix eye (in the first pic) was not actually what we call the "phoenix eye" according to my sifu, and instead was a training fist that has now led to me doing it in a more similar fashion to the second picture. Whether this fist changes into something else with time, i dont know, but the phoenix eye is freaking awesome.

and thanks once again to sanjuro ronin, viewing his youtube vids again from my more recent perspective definitely refreshed my mind on how i could train my phoenix eye to be better.


There are many ways to use phoenix eyes, both type above are valid depend on different type of Jin applied with it.

The following is another way of using the Phoenix eyes, The healing way. :D

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.karatesupply.com/assets/images/101692-8173-LG.jpg

http://www.karatesupply.com/assets/images/101761-LG.jpg

http://soulbinder007.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/42062_freekickbag.jpg

http://www.bilttuff.com/images/43%20grappling%20dummy.jpg

http://chinaboxingequipment.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/free-standing-bags.jpg


http://cdn101.iofferphoto.com/img/item/171/399/861/pm1000a-i-i-fighting-man-dummy-punching-kicking-bag-new-15dd.jpg



The Dummy Bags...are good for placing Stickers along the conceptual meridans and other pressure point targets an striking them until you can strike them with your phoenix eye/ginger fist with out looking as you would typing on a keyboard!

[JPinAZ]

The Dummy Bags...are good for placing Stickers along the conceptual meridans and other pressure point targets an striking them until you can strike them with your phoenix eye/ginger fist with out looking as you would typing on a keyboard!

Are you serious with this? You could do this for 10 years and be no closer in landing those same shots on a live/moving/resisting target then when you started. I'd agree that striking training pads could help toughen up the knuckles/hands, but using stikers for impoving accuracy for hitting 'pressure points' that can be applied to fighting?!? :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you serious with this? You could do this for 10 years and be no closer in landing those same shots on a live/moving/resisting target then when you started. I'd agree that striking training pads could help toughen up the knuckles/hands, but using stikers for impoving accuracy for hitting 'pressure points' that can be applied to fighting?!? :o

The practical theory behind "vital point" striking is a simple one: Aim small, miss small, aim big, miss big.
The smaller the target you aim for, the better the chance of hitting the general area.
EX: Aiming for the temple = better chance of hitting the side of the head.
Think of it as a sniper analogy.
That said, like you mentioned, you can hit all the static targets in the world and it will never prepare you to hit a living, moving target that is hitting you back, even more so if he is hitting and moving in a way that you don't train directly against.

[Yoshiyahu]

Are you serious with this? You could do this for 10 years and be no closer in landing those same shots on a live/moving/resisting target then when you started. I'd agree that striking training pads could help toughen up the knuckles/hands, but using stikers for impoving accuracy for hitting 'pressure points' that can be applied to fighting?!? :o


I WILL MAKE IT SIMPLE...YOU TRAIN BY SHOOTING AN ARROW AT OR GUN AT A TARGET...WHEN U GO HUNTING THATS WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE TO SHOOT A MOVING TARGET.


BUT WHY ON EARTH DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LAND EACH AN EVERY SHOT YOU TAKE...

Me i have no idea if i can hit you in the nose each an every time i strike. I aint worried about if i missed it the first two or three times imma keep striking you in various places until i land my hit. like your nose, bridge of the nose or your throat or chin...eventually imma land a few blows there..

But as for my ginger fist the best time to strike is when you have the opponent currently jammed, trapped or immoble.

[JPinAZ]

The practical theory behind "vital point" striking is a simple one: Aim small, miss small, aim big, miss big.
The smaller the target you aim for, the better the chance of hitting the general area.
EX: Aiming for the temple = better chance of hitting the side of the head.
Think of it as a sniper analogy.

Sure this makes sense to me! But, as we agree, doing it on static targets doesn't prepare you for real life encounters like some may think. That's all I was getting at :)

[Dale Dugas]

You need to seriously train your hands the old school way if you want to hit people with either the PE or the GF.

If you are not training your hands, you are living a fantasy about using them in self defense.

Who here is training their hands and what are they doing to train these two fist formations in particular?

[JPinAZ]

I WILL MAKE IT SIMPLE...YOU TRAIN BY SHOOTING AN ARROW AT OR GUN AT A TARGET...WHEN U GO HUNTING THATS WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE TO SHOOT A MOVING TARGET.

BUT WHY ON EARTH DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LAND EACH AN EVERY SHOT YOU TAKE...

Why on earth are you using all caps? is this some weird attempt at yelling online to better prove some point? :rolleyes:
Besides that, don't put words into my mouth - I never said anything regarding being able to land each and every shot. You're just arguing with yourself on that one..


Me i have no idea if i can hit you in the nose each an every time i strike. I aint worried about if i missed it the first two or three times imma keep striking you in various places until i land my hit. like your nose, bridge of the nose or your throat or chin...eventually imma land a few blows there..


Thanks for proving my point. If you can't hit your inteded target after the first two or three times and have to keep trying until you finally land a hit, you should probably be focusing a lot more on sparring with live opponents, because this sticker striking obviously isn't working for ya ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Sure this makes sense to me! But, as we agree, doing it on static targets doesn't prepare you for real life encounters like some may think. That's all I was getting at :)

who said limit it to non-moving targets...thats why they invented padded vest, head gear and even gloves...So you can practice striking those targets on a live opponent. who is struggling to not get hit...but at first you need you use stickers on the opponent until you get use to striking an moving opponent...this will greatly bring you A game up...Also practicing light contact sparring can prepare you too...get use to moving and striking someone moving....No one is gonna get injured from a light touch with or with out padding!

[Yoshiyahu]

lol, not even Mike Tyson can knock someone out in the first blow friend...You aint gonna be able to strike any one skilled that easily with out getting hit, them moving away or them moving in to smother your hit...You may land a blow you want but what if the sting is knocked off...when fighting i never be like i want to hit this spot an just focus on that...Thats what training is for...you train your body to hit certain points automatically...when fighting im more concern with attacking relentlessly,controlling my opponent so he can't hit me, an sticking close to him an flowing around his force...Im not thinking bong gerk if he do this an bong sau if he do that...thats why i train it so in fighting it will be instinctual....to further bring my drills home i spar, i chi sau, i light spar and freestyle shadow box with the wing chun techniques to get use to applying techniques freely with out a routine an with a resistanting opponent...

I agree with youn though about the sparring thats key!



Why on earth are you using all caps? is this some weird attempt at yelling online to better prove some point? :rolleyes:
Besides that, don't put words into my mouth - I never said anything regarding being able to land each and every shot. You're just arguing with yourself on that one..



Thanks for proving my point. If you can't hit your inteded target after the first two or three times and have to keep trying until you finally land a hit, you should probably be focusing a lot more on sparring with live opponents, because this sticker striking obviously isn't working for ya ;)

[JPinAZ]

who said limit it to non-moving targets...thats why they invented padded vest, head gear and even gloves...So you can practice striking those targets on a live opponent. who is struggling to not get hit...but at first you need you use stickers on the opponent until you get use to striking an moving opponent...this will greatly bring you A game up...Also practicing light contact sparring can prepare you too...get use to moving and striking someone moving....No one is gonna get injured from a light touch with or with out padding!

Well, your post only showed a bunch of pictures of stationary targets, in which you described placing stickers on them on meridians and pressure points and hitting them. While that does have 'some' benifit I guess, how the f'k should we all know what all else you meant if you didn't say it?
HEY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY USING MORE CAPS NEXT TIME OR SOMETHING!! :eek:

And if you feel you're "greatly bringing your A game up" by striking non-moving stickers, then you don't plan to have much of an 'A game' IMO and nothing I can say is going to mean much to you. :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

You need to seriously train your hands the old school way if you want to hit people with either the PE or the GF.

If you are not training your hands, you are living a fantasy about using them in self defense.

Who here is training their hands and what are they doing to train these two fist formations in particular?

I totally agree with this.
While there are some here that feel conditioning the hands the 'old school way' isn't of benifit, I feel it has benifitted me a lot. I've gone thru the traditional methods of striking bags filled with mung beans and heavy packed sand along with dit da jow. Typical strikes trained are palm, finger tips, knife edge, fist, phoenix eye and fingers of the 'dragon claw'. I realize this isn't just phoenix eye specific, but it was and is part of the regiment.
I also have and still do hit trees, walls, sign poles, whatever is near when I can to keep up challenging my hands so-to-speak. I know that sounds goofy, but I can hit solid, less-forgiving objects with a lot more force than I could before I started conditioning my hands which has direct benifits toward fighting.

In the past I trained dragon claw finger pushups until I've reached a point where I can do them with just the thumbs and index fingers. I've tried the phoenix eye fist pushup on a 1" training matt, but haven't put the time in to develop that since I don't train with that fist formation in application as much as I could.

For other general conditioning, I also rarely worn gloves and only occasionally wear wrist wraps when hitting a heavy bag. I've been doing it that way for almost 20 years and have been able to keep most injuries to a minimum while doing so (with only occasional slight wrist sprain or bloody knuckle as punishment :)) but that's kinda beyond the scope of the thread.

[Bacon]

You need to seriously train your hands the old school way if you want to hit people with either the PE or the GF.

If you are not training your hands, you are living a fantasy about using them in self defense.

Who here is training their hands and what are they doing to train these two fist formations in particular?

I train my hands the old school way. It's called hitting the heavy bag :p

I've had to knock out several people in my life and the worst I ever suffered was a swollen middle knuckle... The large one though.

As for ginger fist and phoenix eye fist... conditioned or not they're not something I'll use when someone's swinging to take my head off. Too much fine motor control required to form the fist under pressure. Never mind about actually landing the strike in the proper place.
Maybe if I was on top in mount or in their half guard but then you'd have to be careful about not hitting the ground.

[Dale Dugas]

here you go again critiquing something you know nothing about.

We are not talking about your silly MMA here, son.

We are talking about using anatomical weapons that are great to use in REAL fight situations and not MMA/Sport situations.

I can give you a personal demo at your location or mine. Bring a film crew. We can post it on Youtube.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I train my hands the old school way. It's called hitting the heavy bag :p

I've had to knock out several people in my life and the worst I ever suffered was a swollen middle knuckle... The large one though.

As for ginger fist and phoenix eye fist... conditioned or not they're not something I'll use when someone's swinging to take my head off. Too much fine motor control required to form the fist under pressure. Never mind about actually landing the strike in the proper place.
Maybe if I was on top in mount or in their half guard but then you'd have to be careful about not hitting the ground.

Tell me something, if you fought a guy and, practical skill was pretty much the same, do you think that you'd have a better or worse chance against him if he had a "force multiplier" like a kubotan or something like that?
Do you think that his strikes would hurt more or less with them?

[Dale Dugas]

he has never been in a real fight how will Pork Belly be able to answer?

He will sidestep hem and haw and talk about where are the empirical studies about the use of these anatomical weapons, etc.

Simply physics, if you sharpen the angle on something it penetrates much easier or in the case of hand weapons it causes much more damage than a flat weapon.

[EternalSpring]

You need to seriously train your hands the old school way if you want to hit people with either the PE or the GF.

If you are not training your hands, you are living a fantasy about using them in self defense.

Who here is training their hands and what are they doing to train these two fist formations in particular?

I still think I'm in the earlier stages of training it, but training the phoenix eye for me started with little actual conditioning but more of a "mini form(s) that I still do to this day. Explaining the movements is a bit hard, but if I had to give an example, one of the drills is very similar to a part of this form in this video (http://youtu.be/ToHHM-7lXMg), specifically starting from ~23 secs and going up to ~40 secs. The other drills also starts in a similar way where my "kiu(s)" first slowly close in.

Besides that I've also been shown light wall bag work and repetitive semi soft tapping against other objects sides with applying dit da jow. I think it's a decent starting point from my limited knowledge on it, but I wouldn't deny the fact that my phoenix eye is def not even 1/4th of the way to being what it should be.

Got any general advice on how to condition the fist even further/better?

[Dale Dugas]

Do not hit the joints of the fingers too much. Better to press the knuckle of the PE up against the wall and do pushups to develop the ability to load stress through the structure and not have the structure cave in. stay close to the wall at the beginning and then step out and place more weight on the flat part of the knuckle than pressing the tip into anything hard.

It is not about having this little knuckle that is trained and nothing else.

You want to train the extensor and flexor muscles of the lower arm to enable the structure to remain in the position you want and drive through the intended target.

You are not going to hit anyone in the head with a PE unless you are freaking superhuman. Though the ribs both front and back arms legs face neck are nasty places to get hit by one.

Ginger Fist is another nasty neck strike that most people will never forget.

Training with a bucket of beans helps, you do not strike into the medium but push the hands in the PE and GF into the beans and add more reps and then move the hands in cardinal directions to help train against resistance.

Try this out and see how it helps.

Lots of jow, and then more jow.

[EternalSpring]

Do not hit the joints of the fingers too much. Better to press the knuckle of the PE up against the wall and do pushups to develop the ability to load stress through the structure and not have the structure cave in. stay close to the wall at the beginning and then step out and place more weight on the flat part of the knuckle than pressing the tip into anything hard.

It is not about having this little knuckle that is trained and nothing else.

You want to train the extensor and flexor muscles of the lower arm to enable the structure to remain in the position you want and drive through the intended target.

You are not going to hit anyone in the head with a PE unless you are freaking superhuman. Though the ribs both front and back arms legs face neck are nasty places to get hit by one.

Ginger Fist is another nasty neck strike that most people will never forget.

Training with a bucket of beans helps, you do not strike into the medium but push the hands in the PE and GF into the beans and add more reps and then move the hands in cardinal directions to help train against resistance.

Try this out and see how it helps.

Lots of jow, and then more jow.

Oh wow, thanks. I definitely will be putting that advice to use. I also didn't realize how oblivious I became to the fact that it's not about training a little finger. In regards to the beans, what would be a safe and effective type to start with?

[desertwingchun2]

I've had to knock out several people in my life and the worst I ever suffered was a swollen middle knuckle... The large one though.


My buddy had this happen every time we used to get into it. But it only took one and lights out.

[Dale Dugas]

Oh wow, thanks. I definitely will be putting that advice to use. I also didn't realize how oblivious I became to the fact that it's not about training a little finger. In regards to the beans, what would be a safe and effective type to start with?

Get yourself a bucket at Lowes or Home Depot and fill it half way with dried beans.

Place the bucket at waist height and then push your hand into the medium slowly and try and press down to the bottom of the bucket holding the PE. Then you can move the PE north, south, east and west for reps. Start with 10 and add a rep a day until you get to 100 reps for each direction.

Change hands and repeat.

Put jow on after as the beans will get stuck to you dermis if you use it before.

[Bacon]

Tell me something, if you fought a guy and, practical skill was pretty much the same, do you think that you'd have a better or worse chance against him if he had a "force multiplier" like a kubotan or something like that?
Do you think that his strikes would hurt more or less with them?

More. I've been hit by people who had a fists load in hand. The real advantage besides any added weight and striking surface is the reinforcement of the digits so you won't hurt your hand so much if you miss hitting with the knuckles.
So if you take the same guy and give him a fist load which isn't weighted then you don't change any striking dynamics (excepting the additional striking surface on the ends) just the possibility of injury to his hand. A kubotan is a force multiplier because of the striking ends and the security from the reinforced fist.
Add weight in the fist load and you change the dynamics because you now have to deal with greater force coming at you.

It doesn't change the dynamics of their technique enough that it's a huge deal compared to say, them picking up a chair, or a knife, or a hockey stick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

More. I've been hit by people who had a fists lad in hand. The real advantage besides any added weight and striking surface is the reinforcement of the digits so you won't hurt your hand so much if you miss hitting with the knuckles.
So if you take the same guy and give him a fist load which isn't weighted then you don't change any striking dynamics (excepting the additional striking surface on the ends) just the possibility of injury to his hand. A kubotan is a force multiplier because of the striking ends and the security from the reinforced fist.
Add weight in the fist load and you change the dynamics because you now have to deal with greater force coming at you.

It doesn't change the dynamics of their technique enough that it's a huge deal compared to say, them picking up a chair, or a knife, or a hockey stick.

The PE fist works along the same pattern IF it is trained as such:
Forged AND trained as much ( if not more) than the regular fist.
Honestly, I can count the guys that can use the PE fist in real fight on one hand.
Same thing goes for any specialty fists.

A well trained specialty fist will look deformed UNLESS jow and correct massage and forging is used.
An example of old school, more is better and no jow mentality is Morio Higanonna ( He only started using jow later on and his hands show the issues of non-jow training) and Kinjo sensei.
Sure your knuckles and hand will always look a bit "different" but they don't have to look "deformed".

[Bacon]

Get yourself a bucket at Lowes or Home Depot and fill it half way with dried beans.

Place the bucket at waist height and then push your hand into the medium slowly and try and press down to the bottom of the bucket holding the PE. Then you can move the PE north, south, east and west for reps. Start with 10 and add a rep a day until you get to 100 reps for each direction.

Change hands and repeat.

Put jow on after as the beans will get stuck to you dermis if you use it before.

What size bucket are you talking about Dale? Gallon? Half gallon?

I may actually try this. Would this work for training the fingers for biu sau as well?

[Bacon]

The PE fist works along the same pattern IF it is trained as such:
Forged AND trained as much ( if not more) than the regular fist.
Honestly, I can count the guys that can use the PE fist in real fight on one hand.
Same thing goes for any specialty fists.

A well trained specialty fist will look deformed UNLESS jow and correct massage and forging is used.
An example of old school, more is better and no jow mentality is Morio Higanonna ( He only started using jow later on and his hands show the issues of non-jow training) and Kinjo sensei.
Sure your knuckles and hand will always look a bit "different" but they don't have to look "deformed".

Regardless of conditioning aspects my issue with using specialty hand shapes is:
Forming them under stress
Hitting with them under stress

I can hit people with all kinds of stuff in sparring but once you have that adrenaline dump and your fine motor skills go out the window the reliability and usefulness of something like this is quite a bit reduced.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Regardless of conditioning aspects my issue with using specialty hand shapes is:
Forming them under stress
Hitting with them under stress

I can hit people with all kinds of stuff in sparring but once you have that adrenaline dump and your fine motor skills go out the window the reliability and usefulness of something like this is quite a bit reduced.

You know what fist formation I do almost every time? PE fist.
It is the instinctive fist formation I do.
Practice makes perfect.
If you want the pe fist then you must make it your priority fist.
Here is how I tend to do it, when I do bag work and use gloves, it's flat fist, but I also dedicate at least 3 rounds for bare hand work where I do the knife hand, ridge hand and pe fist.
When I do "freestyle" and just hit the bag for a few rounds, I always do PE fist when doing body shots, and when I fight or spar, it comes naturally, so much that at times I have to hold myself back from doing it.
When I "think" body shot, the PE fist automatically forms.

[Dale Dugas]

Get the five gallon buckets and fill them more than half way for strength training.

If you are going to slice into the medum with spear hands you want to get two buckets and make a longer bucket as most people have long enough arms that they can hit the bottom of one bucket.

Cut the bottom off one and duct tape it over the other bucket to create a long bucket that will ensure you will not hit your hands on the bottom.

I have done this and jammed my hands and fingers and its no fun at all.

Go slow and remember you are not striking into the medium very much. Slice and push into it using strength. Hold air in your stomach and push through the medium.

[Bacon]

Get the five gallon buckets and fill them more than half way for strength training.

If you are going to slice into the medum with spear hands you want to get two buckets and make a longer bucket as most people have long enough arms that they can hit the bottom of one bucket.

Cut the bottom off one and duct tape it over the other bucket to create a long bucket that will ensure you will not hit your hands on the bottom.

I have done this and jammed my hands and fingers and its no fun at all.

Go slow and remember you are not striking into the medium very much. Slice and push into it using strength. Hold air in your stomach and push through the medium.

Okay. Thanks Dale! If I'm going to start this though I guess I'd better get on it before Christmas taps my funds dry :p

[Yoshiyahu]

Hitting objects has nothing to do with fighting...hitting makara board or wall bag has nothing to do with fighting...hitting an heavy bag has nothing to do with fighting...

But what does using Jow, push ups on the fingers and other training tools do?

They condition your hand. They make your hands strong enough to actually use the blasted PE or GF!!!

I dont care how good you are at sparring if your Fist is not developed it wont do you any good in bareknuckle fighting...

Everything i showed dealt with development on elementary level...the beginning stages of training the PE along with the wall bag!



I totally agree with this.
While there are some here that feel conditioning the hands the 'old school way' isn't of benifit, I feel it has benifitted me a lot. I've gone thru the traditional methods of striking bags filled with mung beans and heavy packed sand along with dit da jow. Typical strikes trained are palm, finger tips, knife edge, fist, phoenix eye and fingers of the 'dragon claw'. I realize this isn't just phoenix eye specific, but it was and is part of the regiment.
I also have and still do hit trees, walls, sign poles, whatever is near when I can to keep up challenging my hands so-to-speak. I know that sounds goofy, but I can hit solid, less-forgiving objects with a lot more force than I could before I started conditioning my hands which has direct benifits toward fighting.

In the past I trained dragon claw finger pushups until I've reached a point where I can do them with just the thumbs and index fingers. I've tried the phoenix eye fist pushup on a 1" training matt, but haven't put the time in to develop that since I don't train with that fist formation in application as much as I could.

For other general conditioning, I also rarely worn gloves and only occasionally wear wrist wraps when hitting a heavy bag. I've been doing it that way for almost 20 years and have been able to keep most injuries to a minimum while doing so (with only occasional slight wrist sprain or bloody knuckle as punishment :)) but that's kinda beyond the scope of the thread.

[JPinAZ]

Hitting objects has nothing to do with fighting...hitting makara board or wall bag has nothing to do with fighting...hitting an heavy bag has nothing to do with fighting...

Same could be said for your deadly sticker striking. :rolleyes: But really, what does this have to do with what I said, because I don't have a clue.


But what does using Jow, push ups on the fingers and other training tools do?
They condition your hand. They make your hands strong enough to actually use the blasted PE or GF!!!

wow, mind blowing..... so, what point are you making besides stating the obvious because I don't think anyone here has said differently?


I dont care how good you are at sparring if your Fist is not developed it wont do you any good in bareknuckle fighting...

which is why I go through the process of developing my hands. Again, what's your point?


Everything i showed dealt with development on elementary level...the beginning stages of training the PE along with the wall bag!

And once again I have no clue what your point is, or what you 'showed' besided some silly pictures of commercial training dummies. Nor do I care really, since I wasn't even talking to you in the post you quoted!

Since this is all in reply to something I said (you quoted me), are you agreeing with me, not agreeing with me, or just arguing with yourself again? (Maybe you could try lay off whatever you've been smoking before you start yammering on on forums, because I really have no idea WTF you are trying to say... ;))

[Yoshiyahu]

basically im agreeing with this post...What i stated with the pictures is how to train or conditioned the PE and GF....Not actually application...When you speak of hitting a moving target you speak of actual application...theres a difference...

A shooter trains and develops his skill by shooting a target with a gun or bow and arrow.



Same could be said for your deadly sticker striking. :rolleyes: But really, what does this have to do with what I said, because I don't have a clue.



wow, mind blowing..... so, what point are you making besides stating the obvious because I don't think anyone here has said differently?



which is why I go through the process of developing my hands. Again, what's your point?



And once again I have no clue what your point is, or what you 'showed' besided some silly pictures of commercial training dummies. Nor do I care really, since I wasn't even talking to you in the post you quoted!

Since this is all in reply to something I said (you quoted me), are you agreeing with me, not agreeing with me, or just arguing with yourself again? (Maybe you could try lay off whatever you've been smoking before you start yammering on on forums, because I really have no idea WTF you are trying to say... ;))

[Yoshiyahu]

If you can hit someone with a Sun Fist...You can hit them with a Phoenix eye fist.
If i can jab you in the throat with my fingers or ridge hand i can jab you in the throat with Ginger Fist!

As for using stickers on non-moving century bob...its basically to get the Pressure point listing engrain into your mind...Quite simple....You practice hitting the same place over and over again...it will be easier for you to hit someone where you want to than someone who has never practiced hitting those spots over and over again...its basic muscle memory and reflex memory...


Getting you use to the zones...So in sparring and with drills you can practice touching the spots on a resistanting opponent!




Are you serious with this? You could do this for 10 years and be no closer in landing those same shots on a live/moving/resisting target then when you started. I'd agree that striking training pads could help toughen up the knuckles/hands, but using stikers for impoving accuracy for hitting 'pressure points' that can be applied to fighting?!? :o

[JPinAZ]

basically im agreeing with this post...

Fair enough.


What i stated with the pictures is how to train or conditioned the PE and GF....Not actually application...When you speak of hitting a moving target you speak of actual application...theres a difference...

No, that isn't what you said when posting those pictures. What you did say was how these are useful tools (along with stickers) for how you think someone can increase accuracy striking meridians and pressure points.

Solo training by targeting stickers on inanimate objects doesn't improve your accuracy for targeting those same points in a live fight nearly as much as you think. If you actually did this training and then tried it on a resisting opponent you'd know that. But then you also said you don't care if you miss your target 2 or 3 times, so it doesn't really work for you either. Guess it's not 'Greatly upping your A game' as much as you thought huh? ;)

The only way you're going to really up your accuracy for hitting those small targets/points in a fight is by training them in a fight/sparring against moving, resisting opponents with live energy. Solo training is only going toughen your hands and improve some accuracy against inanimate objects - you're not building 'skill' in appying those weapons without a live partner, EVEN IF YOU TYPE IT IN ALL CAPS.



A shooter trains and develops his skill by shooting a target with a gun or bow and arrow.

Same as above applies here. You can be accurate at stationary targets, but still miss 9 out of 10 times against a living target trying to shoot back at you unless you've had a lot of practical LIVE drilling against LIVE moving objects under stressful conditions.

[imperialtaichi]

Same as above applies here. You can be accurate at stationary targets, but still miss 9 out of 10 times against a living target trying to shoot back at you unless you've had a lot of practical LIVE drilling against LIVE moving objects under stressful conditions.

Simple test: try pressing "level 10" on an elevator while your friends pushing you around, and see how easy it is. Not.

[Yoshiyahu]

During a fight you have movement and stillness where the opponent is not moving away or in or out...also you can create stillness by breaking his rhythm or trapping his tools or jamming him...Then you can fire away with accuracy from still targets..


But as for accuracy with stickers...the key is not building accuracy..its builiding muscle memory. its allowing you to remember where abouts the targets are...an how close each one is located to one another on the meridan lines.


As for accuracy..sparring live can increase your accuracy...but along with sparring you need to practice your PE and Ginger fist on a striking target that moves like double end bag...


or a hanging ball that can retract upon impact!



Fair enough.



No, that isn't what you said when posting those pictures. What you did say was how these are useful tools (along with stickers) for how you think someone can increase accuracy striking meridians and pressure points.

Solo training by targeting stickers on inanimate objects doesn't improve your accuracy for targeting those same points in a live fight nearly as much as you think. If you actually did this training and then tried it on a resisting opponent you'd know that. But then you also said you don't care if you miss your target 2 or 3 times, so it doesn't really work for you either. Guess it's not 'Greatly upping your A game' as much as you thought huh? ;)

The only way you're going to really up your accuracy for hitting those small targets/points in a fight is by training them in a fight/sparring against moving, resisting opponents with live energy. Solo training is only going toughen your hands and improve some accuracy against inanimate objects - you're not building 'skill' in appying those weapons without a live partner, EVEN IF YOU TYPE IT IN ALL CAPS.




Same as above applies here. You can be accurate at stationary targets, but still miss 9 out of 10 times against a living target trying to shoot back at you unless you've had a lot of practical LIVE drilling against LIVE moving objects under stressful conditions.

[EternalSpring]

Get yourself a bucket at Lowes or Home Depot and fill it half way with dried beans.

Place the bucket at waist height and then push your hand into the medium slowly and try and press down to the bottom of the bucket holding the PE. Then you can move the PE north, south, east and west for reps. Start with 10 and add a rep a day until you get to 100 reps for each direction.

Change hands and repeat.

Put jow on after as the beans will get stuck to you dermis if you use it before.

Nice, good thing you mentioned the jow part, I def would've kept putting in on beforehand by sheer habit. What kinds of beans should I use? Or, if there are several answers to that, what would be a good starting point for a beginner? I mainly ask because I'm terrified of using the wrong bean and possible having some negative effect on my body.

[Dale Dugas]

The only beans I would not use for training in an open container are soy beans which are poison to men. They are okay to use in bags but having skin contact on them you can absorb their chemicals which are anathema for men.

You can get any kind of bean other than soy and start your training.

You can use jow beforehand. Just remember to rub it in well or you are going to get wet beans that could mold and then you have a stinking bucket of mess.

[wtxs]

But as for accuracy with stickers...the key is not building accuracy..its builiding muscle memory. its allowing you to remember where abouts the targets are...an how close each one is located to one another on the meridan lines.

You must be talking out of your CV1 ... again. how do you equate building muscle memory to remember where about the intended targets are? :confused:

Maybe it holds true for you ... you got muscles instead of the normal gray matters for a brain. :rolleyes:

[Empty_Cup]

The only beans I would not use for training in an open container are soy beans which are poison to men. They are okay to use in bags but having skin contact on them you can absorb their chemicals which are anathema for men.

...

Do you have any data to support this statement?

Our practitioners have used/are using soybeans as an open medium for decades with no apparent health problems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you have any data to support this statement?

Our practitioners have used/are using soybeans as an open medium for decades with no apparent health problems.

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/nov/07/foodanddrink.features7

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects

[wtxs]

The only beans I would not use for training in an open container are soy beans which are poison to men. They are okay to use in bags but having skin contact on them you can absorb their chemicals which are anathema for men.


http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/nov/07/foodanddrink.features7

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects


Ref the 4th link to soy ... the estrogen level in 3 qts of soy milk everyday is NO way compare to what may leech out from a bucket of dried soy beans, or that matter ... the amount of toxin.

[Dale Dugas]

Using jow which is an alcohol based liniment means you could be leeching soy and its chemicals into your body over time with direct training with soybeans with the alcohol from the liniment acting as a solvent.

Most soybeans are also GMO as well, hence I dont use them for any DIRECT or OPEN training at all.

I would rather err on the side of caution hence I do not use it due to the chemicals being poisonous to men and it being GMO. There are cheaper beans as well that you could use. Many kinds that are neither poisonous to men or GMO.

[Yoshiyahu]

You must be talking out of your CV1 ... again. how do you equate building muscle memory to remember where about the intended targets are? :confused:

Maybe it holds true for you ... you got muscles instead of the normal gray matters for a brain. :rolleyes:

its like typing on key board or piano you keep hitting the same keys over and over again until you get so use to it that you can practically play the piano like stevie wonder only with your eyes closed. When your muscle memory gets so keen that you can hit the speed bag effortlessly, type on the key board with out really looking down at the keys or run a fret a guitar....Then an only then can you play the keys on someone body as you would an instrument!

[wtxs]

its like typing on key board or piano you keep hitting the same keys over and over again until you get so use to it that you can practically play the piano like stevie wonder only with your eyes closed. When your muscle memory gets so keen that you can hit the speed bag effortlessly, type on the key board with out really looking down at the keys or run a fret a guitar....Then an only then can you play the keys on someone body as you would an instrument!

Try to make the distinction between stationary and moving target ... or are the "concepts" too "foreign" for you ... :rolleyes:

[Bacon]

Try to make the distinction between stationary and moving target ... or are the "concepts" too "foreign" for you ... :rolleyes:

And the fact there's adrenaline involved screwing with fine motor skills.

[Yoshiyahu]

Try to make the distinction between stationary and moving target ... or are the "concepts" too "foreign" for you ... :rolleyes:

Before you can progress to stationary targets you must first conditioned yourself...hitting certain points on the body you can't just jump into with out knowing them...

there are two ways to memorize the points...

A. But studing a chart or book with points which will take alot longer an be harder to translate into strikes...

B. Use a dummy with bright red stickers along each pressure point location to where you can hit them with PE repeately over and over again both conditioning your hands and memory...


Then you can use other tools to develop timing like a suspended flexible ball that you can strike...the smaller the ball is the harder an more precise your strikes will become...also the ball should be suspended by a rubber band like material so it can bounce an cause you to work to strike it again...

While doing these two things both the dummy and timing exercises on springy striking targets you will always spar. Sparring and chi sau should be a given...If you aint doing sparring and chi sau why are you even doing WC?

[wtxs]

And the fact there's adrenaline involved screwing with fine motor skills.

Good luck in trying get this concept through Yoshi's MEATHEAD.


Before you can progress to stationary targets you must first conditioned yourself...hitting certain points on the body you can't just jump into with out knowing them...

there are two ways to memorize the points...

A. But studing a chart or book with points which will take alot longer an be harder to translate into strikes...

B. Use a dummy with bright red stickers along each pressure point location to where you can hit them with PE repeately over and over again both conditioning your hands and memory...


Then you can use other tools to develop timing like a suspended flexible ball that you can strike...the smaller the ball is the harder an more precise your strikes will become...also the ball should be suspended by a rubber band like material so it can bounce an cause you to work to strike it again...

While doing these two things both the dummy and timing exercises on springy striking targets you will always spar. Sparring and chi sau should be a given...If you aint doing sparring and chi sau why are you even doing WC?

There you go again ... talking out of your CV1.

[Empty_Cup]

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/nov/07/foodanddrink.features7

http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/soys-negative-effects

The above links are for ingesting soybeans.

I work in the grain industry and by law suppliers must list any hazards on a document called a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). The MSDS for soybean meal (crushed up soybeans) does not list any known hazards for skin contact with soybean.

Realistically, this material is handled (by hand) all over the country and the only precaution you need to take is to wash your hands with soap and water after handling just as with any material.

Now, as Dale mentioned, there are plenty of mediums out there other than soy. So, if you're still concerned, then by all means choose a different medium. However, to say that handling or touching soybeans is unsafe or poisonous to men is incorrect.

[JPinAZ]

Before you can progress to stationary targets you must first conditioned yourself...hitting certain points on the body you can't just jump into with out knowing them...

there are two ways to memorize the points...

A. But studing a chart or book with points which will take alot longer an be harder to translate into strikes...

B. Use a dummy with bright red stickers along each pressure point location to where you can hit them with PE repeately over and over again both conditioning your hands and memory...


Then you can use other tools to develop timing like a suspended flexible ball that you can strike...the smaller the ball is the harder an more precise your strikes will become...also the ball should be suspended by a rubber band like material so it can bounce an cause you to work to strike it again...

While doing these two things both the dummy and timing exercises on springy striking targets you will always spar. Sparring and chi sau should be a given...If you aint doing sparring and chi sau why are you even doing WC?

Just when I thought my friday couldn't get any better, you produce this gem. Thank's for the laugh!

[Dale Dugas]

I would disagree with what you said.

Over time training on open medium is going to cause said medium to break down and you are going to get dust as well as smaller particles of said medium in the training container.

Again with alcohol on your hands acting as a solvent over time I can see this causing more absorption than if you had no contact with the soy medium.

Hence I do no training with soy.

I also do not want to inhale any medium either as that will cause health issues as well. Always be vigilant to anything that could be inhaled as you will cause health issues down the road.

[Empty_Cup]

I would disagree with what you said.

Over time training on open medium is going to cause said medium to break down and you are going to get dust as well as smaller particles of said medium in the training container.

Again with alcohol on your hands acting as a solvent over time I can see this causing more absorption than if you had no contact with the soy medium.

Hence I do no training with soy.

I also do not want to inhale any medium either as that will cause health issues as well. Always be vigilant to anything that could be inhaled as you will cause health issues down the road.

Inhalable/respirable dust is definitely a concern but is not limited to soy. Any open medium will create dust and if practicing in an enclosed space it's best to wear a dust mask.

Soy may be hazardous when ingested but there is no evidence it's harmful from skin contact. Again, this material is handled in huge quantities in factories across the country.

[k gledhill]

Inhalable/respirable dust is definitely a concern but is not limited to soy. Any open medium will create dust and if practicing in an enclosed space it's best to wear a dust mask.

Soy may be hazardous when ingested but there is no evidence it's harmful from skin contact. Again, this material is handled in huge quantities in factories across the country.

Random information:

One of the longest words is associated with inhalation of dust..

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

Aka a disease of the lungs due to the inhalation of volcanic dust.

[Yoshiyahu]

Try to make the distinction between stationary and moving target ... or are the "concepts" too "foreign" for you ... :rolleyes:

stationary targets are for conditioning...flexible or retractable or reactionary targets are train timing....chi sau is to train reflex, sensitivity and bridge connections...sparring is to train all your tools your develop an learn how to incorperate everything you working on!




And the fact there's adrenaline involved screwing with fine motor skills.

over time with sparring hard and light sparring you learn to think clearly through the adrenaline...But even with sparring and chi sau you need to still practice conditioning on basic targets that dont move...to train your mind an memory...Strikes come with impulse the better you get...over time it becomes second nature or natural!

[Bacon]

over time with sparring hard and light sparring you learn to think clearly through the adrenaline...But even with sparring and chi sau you need to still practice conditioning on basic targets that dont move...to train your mind an memory...Strikes come with impulse the better you get...over time it becomes second nature or natural!

There are basic biological alterations in vision, heart rate, and fine motor control that you cannot override no matter how much you train.

[Yoshiyahu]

There are basic biological alterations in vision, heart rate, and fine motor control that you cannot override no matter how much you train.

Yes...that is true...with training, sparring and chi sau how ever you can in some instances make up for what you lack with skill!

[wtxs]

stationary targets are for conditioning...flexible or retractable or reactionary targets are train timing....chi sau is to train reflex, sensitivity and bridge connections...sparring is to train all your tools your develop an learn how to incorperate everything you working on!

over time with sparring hard and light sparring you learn to think clearly through the adrenaline...But even with sparring and chi sau you need to still practice conditioning on basic targets that dont move...to train your mind an memory...Strikes come with impulse the better you get...over time it becomes second nature or natural!


There are basic biological alterations in vision, heart rate, and fine motor control that you cannot override no matter how much you train.

Bacon ... you had been forewarned, I did tell you he's an meat head. Put an fork in it and called it DONE.

[Yoshiyahu]

Application of Phoenix Eye Fist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWfqoTuDIw)

Basic Push Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHIr-iCbmPk&feature=related)

Ginger Fist Basic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW5Hs7C_IHs)

[Vajramusti]

Without first developing good structure throughout and good wing chun dynamics including
footwork and timing and learning and training the details of the fist with good teacher(s)-jabberwocky
and watching you tube can just get one into trouble.

[imperialtaichi]

Basic Push Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHIr-iCbmPk&feature=related)

Hahaha, why not, just for the fun of it. Old clip.

The aim is to train alignment, balance, consolidation. Not for the purpose of hardening knuckles. And don't damage those sentivitve fingers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnLFYZ93VU8&list=UUbxxW2IrlEhdaNJ7Yji1iDg&index=10&feature=plcp

[MOSHE]

Guys if you want to success take most of your theories and do the opposite !

[imperialtaichi]

Guys if you want to success take most of your theories and do the opposite !

You don't know my theories ;)

[MOSHE]

You don't know my theories ;)

just refering to the general picture of these recents threads

and on this particular point ,about practising push up on the phenix fist

body is not in concrete and push up is perhaps the worst exercice that a wc guy can do
:)

[wingchunIan]

Application of Phoenix Eye Fist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWfqoTuDIw)

Basic Push Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHIr-iCbmPk&feature=related)

Ginger Fist Basic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW5Hs7C_IHs)

Yoshi, do these clips reflect your views?
IMHO clip1 - forget the phoenix eye fist, it will never land because it is hard to throw an accurate strike whilst unconcious and everything done up to it is so horribly bad that being KO'd is almost a certainty.
clip2 - the bloke is wasting his time. If done properly this exercise will damage his hands, done the way he is doing it is actually giving his other arm a work out and is effectively a one armed push up. His wrist alignment on the arm supposedly working the phoenix eye and his weight distribution show how little work that hand is doing.
clip3 - Does anyone else do ginger fist like that in their Biu Jee? (Genuine question to the forum) In every version of the form that I've seen, the move being shown (where its included) rises. Some perform it as a ginger fist others do not but the BS in this clip about how to form the fist and the consequences of each incorrect formation almost made me cry.

[Vajramusti]

Moshe says:
body is not in concrete and push up is perhaps the worst exercice that a wc guy can do
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree. Developing local musculature is a poor way to go for developing wc skills(Joy )
---------------------------------------------------------------------

wingchunIan says:onsequences of each incorrect formation almost made me cry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saddening.A dialog of the deaf between some who need to learn wing chun and some who laugh at wing chun because they have seen some bad wing chun posting on this forum and on youtube. Yoshiyahu's compulsive posting
makes him a lost leader of of the first group.Responding to his posts adds to the mess.(Joy)

PS-Y's "student" may develop a strong knuckle for knuckle heads but it "ain't" the phoenix eye fist
(joy)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[GlennR]

Moshe says:
body is not in concrete and push up is perhaps the worst exercice that a wc guy can do
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree. Developing local musculature is a poor way to go for developing wc skills(Joy )
---------------------------------------------------------------------

wingchunIan says:onsequences of each incorrect formation almost made me cry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saddening.A dialog of the deaf between some who need to learn wing chun and some who laugh at wing chun because they have seen some bad wing chun posting on this forum and on youtube. Yoshiyahu's compulsive posting
makes him a lost leader of of the first group.Responding to his posts adds to the mess.(Joy)

PS-Y's "student" may develop a strong knuckle for knuckle heads but it "ain't" the phoenix eye fist
(joy)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy
Push ups are an excellent all round exercise AND if you dont like Yosis posts..... post your own!

[imperialtaichi]

Not everyone wants to do push ups on the PE, fair enough.

But if you haven't done one, or can't do one, or haven't discovered what it can teach you, don't knock it because you don't know it.

The key to do a proper PE push up, is not about hardening your PE, but to teach your entire upper apparatus to find a fine alignment where your power can be expressed through a single line. Once you have taught your body to find it, whenever you punch your alignment is expressed and your power come through.

Do you need to do it regularly? No, it is not for hardening knuckles, nor for building local muscles. But every now and again, use it to check your power line if you are developing unevenness or kinks in your power line.

Don't mock what you don't understand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As with all things, doing something the wrong way is not good.
PE fist push ups is a mainstay in almost every system that uses the PE fist as a primary fist.
It is, however, done on a progressive basis and done with correct alignment.
Like the "forging" of any specialty fist, it requires slow progression and correct treatment.
I am not sure what Moshe means when he says that push ups are the worse exercise for a WC person...
Push ups are a stable of EVERY MA ever developed because they work.
The muscles involved are the chest, tricep, lats and back muscles, forearms, wrist, all the muscles involved in ANY forward "punching" movement.
It is common sense that strong muscles are better than weak muscles.

[Vajramusti]

Joy
Push ups are an excellent all round exercise AND if you dont like Yosis posts..... post your own!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn
I post a fair amount from time to time but do not do video clips..not much of a techie and in passing don't do facebook, link or twitter. I have a chapter on wing chun- pak tan flow and lop da flow with photos in the Asian Martial Arts book just published by the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.It's available via kindle and nook.

Yes pushups are an all round exercise.. can help with "pushing" type of power(overhead right)-less useful for developing explosive spring power. I doubt that TST did much pushups. or IM.

Several southern fists have phoenix eye but the power train of wc IMO is quite different from chuka fist and southern mantis.

Gradual "unification" of the body via slt and ck is a prelude to good explosive power-baujajing
and the wc biu jee level of the springy explosive phoenix eye punch

[GlennR]

I post a fair amount from time to time but do not do video clips..not much of a techie and in passing don't do facebook, link or twitter. I have a chapter on wing chun- pak tan flow and lop da flow with photos in the Asian Martial Arts book just published by the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.It's available via kindle and nook.


Fair enough, but why not post it here?


Yes pushups are an all round exercise.. can help with "pushing" type of power(overhead right)-less useful for developing explosive spring power. I doubt that TST did much pushups. or IM.


Id disagree with this


Several southern fists have phoenix eye but the power train of wc IMO is quite different from chuka fist and southern mantis.

But, id agree with that


Gradual "unification" of the body via slt and ck is a prelude to good explosive power-baujajing
and the wc biu jee level of the springy explosive phoenix eye punch


Im sure a push up or two wouldnt hinder this ;)

[imperialtaichi]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes pushups are an all round exercise.. can help with "pushing" type of power(overhead right)-less useful for developing explosive spring power. I doubt that TST did much pushups.

Oh really..... I guess you know TST quite well then?

And I guess having a strong body is detrimental to developing explosive spring power as well then?

[imperialtaichi]

As with all things, doing something the wrong way is not good.
PE fist push ups is a mainstay in almost every system that uses the PE fist as a primary fist.
It is, however, done on a progressive basis and done with correct alignment.
Like the "forging" of any specialty fist, it requires slow progression and correct treatment.
I am not sure what Moshe means when he says that push ups are the worse exercise for a WC person...
Push ups are a stable of EVERY MA ever developed because they work.
The muscles involved are the chest, tricep, lats and back muscles, forearms, wrist, all the muscles involved in ANY forward "punching" movement.
It is common sense that strong muscles are better than weak muscles.

Sorry SJR, I thought common sense was banned in this forum?

[Vajramusti]

Oh really..... I guess you know TST quite well then?

((I have met him several times and have rolled with him in Seattle and Houston on his trip to the US. Quite well ?No. Joy))

And I guess having a strong body is detrimental to developing explosive spring power as well then?

((not detrimental but does not ipso facto create whipping power. Sanjuro does a good phoenix eye but it's not a wc phoenix eye.I do not recall any shot of Dun Wah(Sanjuro's sigung) doinga good wing chun phoenix eye. If so a picture would be good.
Strength also can be function specific. Different kinds of strength for different purposes.joy))

((Glenn- JAMA's copyright requirements prevent posting shots of the pak tan and lop da examples-pictures here. But the pictures and article is available through JAMA, Amazon-kindle, Barnes Noble-Nook(the da could be turned into a phoenix eye if so chosen)Joy

[MOSHE]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds

[wingchunIan]

Moshe says:
body is not in concrete and push up is perhaps the worst exercice that a wc guy can do
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree. Developing local musculature is a poor way to go for developing wc skills(Joy )
---------------------------------------------------------------------

wingchunIan says:onsequences of each incorrect formation almost made me cry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saddening.A dialog of the deaf between some who need to learn wing chun and some who laugh at wing chun because they have seen some bad wing chun posting on this forum and on youtube. Yoshiyahu's compulsive posting
makes him a lost leader of of the first group.Responding to his posts adds to the mess.(Joy)

PS-Y's "student" may develop a strong knuckle for knuckle heads but it "ain't" the phoenix eye fist
(joy)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as a quoted party to the dialogue which camp are you placing me in then Joy?

[Vajramusti]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A good distinction Moshe.
I have no problem with the first world- have done some of those things myself.

But the second world is different- wing chun is quite unique and different from western martial sports and even other nan kuen- hung ga, clf, southern mantis, white crane(for the most part),
bak mei etc.

Wing chun is not the only way to fight.There are many approaches to fighting and self defense.
But distinctions can help with understanding.

Wing chun is often counter intuitive-but quite natural when pre conceptions are shaved off.
The foundation of the the wing chun phoenix eye is there in the slt but good development takes place at the biu jee level with the development of all the major axis...otherwise it can be easily countered... by a simple but efficient pak for instance.

[wingchunIan]

Hahaha, why not, just for the fun of it. Old clip.

The aim is to train alignment, balance, consolidation. Not for the purpose of hardening knuckles. And don't damage those sentivitve fingers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnLFYZ93VU8&list=UUbxxW2IrlEhdaNJ7Yji1iDg&index=10&feature=plcp

Not something I do personally but at least in this clip the weight is distributed through the structure being worked and the wrist is aligned, which is the point I was making about the earlier similar clip posted by Yoshi.

[MOSHE]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A good distinction

I will even add that this forum is a good illustration of what happened at the Babel tower , if you the story

[imperialtaichi]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds

In my view, there is only one world; and it belongs to the person still standing, not the ones lying on the ground.

In a fight, all h3ll breaks lose, the complex techniques you practice breaks down. The only thing that carries you through are the correct habits you formed during training, your strategies and your attributes.

Your WC is your tool. You master it, not enslaved by rules and dogma. Be alive and active on how you can maximize it's true nature, not bound by just set movements.

Btw, I've been in TST's flat a number of years ago. I have seen his training equipments. His things, I don't have the authority to discuss it.

[GlennR]

I will even add that this forum is a good illustration of what happened at the Babel tower , if you the story

Go punch a plank

[GlennR]

In my view, there is only one world; and it belongs to the person still standing, not the ones lying on the ground.

In a fight, all h3ll breaks lose, the complex techniques you practice breaks down. The only thing that carries you through are the correct habits you formed during training, your strategies and your attributes.

Your WC is your tool. You master it, not enslaved by rules and dogma. Be alive and active on how you can maximize it's true nature, not bound by just set movements.

Btw, I've been in TST's flat a number of years ago. I have seen his training equipments. His things, I don't have the authority to discuss it.

Youre so much nicer than me John ;)

[imperialtaichi]

Not something I do personally but at least in this clip the weight is distributed through the structure being worked and the wrist is aligned, which is the point I was making about the earlier similar clip posted by Yoshi.

Thanks WCI. I agree, it may not suit everyone's training method. It's personal. Fair enough.

But the "experts" often like to criticize persons who does things differently to them, without understanding what is going on. Something we are all guilty of from time to time.

[Vajramusti]

Go punch a plank-
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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

[GlennR]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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And so does condascending tones from our know it all friend. I guess we're even for now so ill leave him alone


John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so


From my point of view, you suggested push ups only work isolated muscles and i(and a couple of others) said that its an excellent all round body exercise.... i never actually said it would help your WC power, but it certainly wont hinder it IMO.

Regarding your question, looking at all the guys you mentioned im not sure if any of them did push ups, they were probably of the belief that it would slow them down which has been proven to be nonsense

[Vajramusti]

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And so does condascending tones from our know it all friend. I guess we're even for now so ill leave him alone



From my point of view, you suggested push ups only work isolated muscles and i(and a couple of others) said that its an excellent all round body exercise.... i never actually said it would help your WC power, but it certainly wont hinder it IMO.

((May not hinder Glenn-depends on what the rest of the training is IMO))joy

Regarding your question, looking at all the guys you mentioned im not sure if any of them did push ups, they were probably of the belief that it would slow them down which has been proven to be nonsense

((A possible communication issue. Not necessarily an issue of speed. There are diverse views on the dynamics of a good wing chun punch. English is not Moshe's first language..by the tower of babel metaphor he may be referring to diversity. His plank punching was not bad-showed some short power IMO.In forum posts we often prematurely jump to conclusions on tone. intent, condescension, expertise etc Partly, the nature of the medium. The printed word medium is going away but is better and discussion over tea or coffee or a good beer between good faith discussants even more so. Physicists, chemists, philosophers with serious differences in perspectives often do that. But in internet forum discussions we often miss the boat and remain at the starting gate.))Joy

[Kellen Bassette]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

Don't know much about the history of these WC Sifus, but the Chinese military was doing push ups at least a century ago, and were training Sanda by the 20's, so I think it's a pretty safe assumption a lot of Kung Fu schools were also doing push ups.

I don't see why Wing Chun wouldn't have used them as well.

[GlennR]

((A possible communication issue. Not necessarily an issue of speed. There are diverse views on the dynamics of a good wing chun punch. English is not Moshe's first language..by the tower of babel metaphor he may be referring to diversity. His plank punching was not bad-showed some short power IMO.In forum posts we often prematurely jump to conclusions on tone. intent, condescension, expertise etc Partly, the nature of the medium. The printed word medium is going away but is better and discussion over tea or coffee or a good beer between good faith discussants even more so. Physicists, chemists, philosophers with serious differences in perspectives often do that. But in internet forum discussions we often miss the boat and remain at the starting gate.))Joy

Id love to be as understanding as you Joy but he's condescending.

Having said that, i didnt mind his demo either

[imperialtaichi]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

The great masters in history would use whatever means to achieve their goal, based in what is available and the scientific concepts of the time.

My KL22 teacher once said, "don't just copy what I do. If you just photocopy your teacher, every generation there will be degradations, just like a photocopy. Take what I give you and make it better."

If Leung Jan had the Internet, and the latest research on biomechanics and physiology, what would he do?

[Vajramusti]

So as a quoted party to the dialogue which camp are you placing me in then Joy?
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Ian
The examples "saddened me" rather than" almost make me cry". Just different choice of words for a similar reaction.. I was not placing you in any camp.

[wingchunIan]

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Regarding your question, looking at all the guys you mentioned im not sure if any of them did push ups, they were probably of the belief that it would slow them down which has been proven to be nonsense

I'd agree Glenn that the musculature of the gents in question doesn't suggest they did push ups or any similar exercises for that matter. As for why, we'll never know. When I used to be a gym rat my own sifu said something interesting to me that has always stuck it was along the lines of if you want to go to the gym to look good or get fit then that's a personal choice but just think of all the Wing Chun you could be practising instead. Also we need to overlay the TCM element and it is possible that there might well have been more focus on internal health than external fitness.
People should do what they feel is right for them, if doing 100 push ups a day makes a person's wing chun feel better then who has a right to tell them otherwise apart from their own sifu and seniors.

[anerlich]

If Leung Jan had the Internet, and the latest research on biomechanics and physiology, what would he do?

Indeed. As with any "ancient sage", don't do what they did ... seek what they sought. don't follow blindly, use your brain.

Push ups might be bad for your WC (unlikely IMO, and it begs the question - why?) ... but also some say that typing on a keyboard messes with the chi flow at the meridian junctions and will f*** you up far worse .... also that sitting on your a$$ in an office chair 8 hours a day is a great way to shorten your life, blah blah blah ... if you avoided everything various random internet authorities say is "bad" for your WC you'd need to be a hermit in a cave somewhere.

And if you practise BJJ or any non-T MA, your WC is beyond redemption :rolleyes:

I've yet to see any concrete evidence that WC, Qigong, etc. improve the length of quality of life. A fair few of our seniors in recent times died too young and had significant health problems. There is a fair amount of evidence that weight bearing exercise, like the dreaded pushups, can improve quality of life into old age.

I do a fair amount of pushups, and reckon I could still kick Moshe's a$$ ;):p

[MOSHE]

It's quite amazing but not a surprise that's in a forum dedicated to wing Chun and to what should imply the development of his particular skill ,that some people are there to argue on considerations completely unfamiliar to this art.

If you wish to promote this , good for you
If you feel that you are improving the system , good for your ego and for your self confidence

I'm simply more humble ,knowing that what came to me have years of experimentations by the ancestors before they codified it and I also know that the quality of the skill of the recent generations is just decreasing
Then what have been lost is certainly not compensated or even related to the methods you are promoting

Principally for the yip man branch

Concerning the skill that has been adapted by Leung chan and taught like the way we find in china , this skill being more simple and addressed to more physical people , I do believe that it's still quite authentic , more complete and opened to this kind of physical reenforcement,

Ps: tha reason they are practising chi kong is not to increase the strength but to relaxe themselves because they are too much physical

[imperialtaichi]

I'm simply more humble ,knowing that what came to me have years of experimentations by the ancestors before they codified it and I also know that the quality of the skill of the recent generations is just decreasing
Then what have been lost is certainly not compensated or even related to the methods you are promoting

Wow, "I am right and all of you are wrong", that's awesome, not humble. ;)

[Dale Dugas]

way too many mouthboxers here spouting much BS

[imperialtaichi]

Indeed. As with any "ancient sage", don't do what they did ... seek what they sought. don't follow blindly, use your brain.


True on so many levels, not just in MA.

[Ozzy Dave]

It's quite amazing but not a surprise that's in a forum dedicated to wing Chun and to what should imply the development of his particular skill ,that some people are there to argue on considerations completely unfamiliar to this art.

What amazes me is how we can discuss WC or any MA as an entity separate from the practitioner’s life, almost as some sort of formula that you mustn’t pollute with perceived outside influences.

All MA advocate training harder when you are young which doesn’t mean just volume but to concentrate on attributes such as strength. As you age things like timing and experience in handling force come to the fore so it can seem that the seniors didn’t do strength training but they did.

I note however that practitioners leading a more physical life may have different requirements and agree that the relaxation effect of certain hei gung is integral to its inclusion in martial practice.

Nice discussion in general on PE fist by the way, was only ever shown one way to use it, bit like a shovel hook and not sure if it came from WC or not.

Dave

[anerlich]

I'm simply more humble

You've hidden that attribute very well.

[JPinAZ]

way too many mouthboxers here spouting much BS

welcome to the wing chun forum ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Me Personally I use the Phoenix Eye and Sun Fist interchangably when sparring or fighting....

[Ali. R]

The ‘ginger fist’ isn’t always used for small areas when striking; here’s one example. I was taught to use it as a knife, by stabbing the ribs and raking downward like a xylophone while using the knuckle after the strike itself, it’s very, very affective when in actual combat.

I’ve sent a lot of overzealous men down to their knees with that strike when sparring. Don’t take my word for it; just place the knuckle on someone’s ribs without the strike, then rake downward (forcefully or lightly) and watch the wonderful reaction/whimper you’ll get from that person.

The ‘ginger fist’ really works.

[Bacon]

The ‘ginger fist’ isn’t always used for small areas when striking; here’s one example. I was taught to use it as a knife, by stabbing the ribs and raking downward like a xylophone while using the knuckle after the strike itself, it’s very, very affective when in actual combat.

I’ve sent a lot of overzealous men down to their knees with that strike when sparring. Don’t take my word for it; just place the knuckle on someone’s ribs without the strike, then rake downward (forcefully or lightly) and watch the wonderful reaction/whimper you’ll get from that person.

The ‘ginger fist’ really works.

I was taught a similar thing by a jujitsu guy only you use the knuckles on the sternum.

[Ali. R]

Yeah, it really hurts badly. My sifu was about 60 years old when he done that to me, I was about 27 years of age at that time (got overzealous with him).

Man, I’d wiped away a few tears that day, he done it to me one time; in which got my attention really fast and gave me a new found respect for the elderly.

I was walking around sizing up senior citizen for over a month; wondering if I could take them or not. That made me nervous as heck of old people and much more respectful too.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for sharing...i wanted to comment before the hate on your post came...great!!!!



The ‘ginger fist’ isn’t always used for small areas when striking; here’s one example. I was taught to use it as a knife, by stabbing the ribs and raking downward like a xylophone while using the knuckle after the strike itself, it’s very, very affective when in actual combat.

I’ve sent a lot of overzealous men down to their knees with that strike when sparring. Don’t take my word for it; just place the knuckle on someone’s ribs without the strike, then rake downward (forcefully or lightly) and watch the wonderful reaction/whimper you’ll get from that person.

The ‘ginger fist’ really works.