TCMA Cum Na and ground work?

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JlPEbfitI&feature=related

[Dragonzbane76]

This was brought up in another thread, its not what u think it is. I tried to find the link to it but didnt have the time. I think ross posted it.

[Ben Gash]

The book is called Chin Na Fa, and it's a Shanghai police training manual from the 1920s

[Dragonzbane76]

Thanks ben couldnt remeber where it was from.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The book is called Chin Na Fa, and it's a Shanghai police training manual from the 1920s

The "controversy" ( if you wanna call it that) is that the book came out after Judo was introduced to mainland China.
Before that, in ANY of the TCMA training manuals, you did NOT find any ground grappling along those lines.

[Dragonzbane76]

That what i was trying to remember about it Ronin.

[ShaolinDan]

Oldest written wrestling manual--200 AD
Oldest evidence (drawings) of wrestling--20000 BC
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62147

The absence of the techniques in a manual is hardly evidence that they didn't exist before that.

Either way, these techniques have been a part of CMA for at least 90 years...that's long enough as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I suspect they've been around almost as long as wrestling, but I have no evidence, just my feeling.

Still, it's not BJJ. Kung fu ground fighting is mostly geared towards getting back up--I don't think there's anyway around that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oldest written wrestling manual--200 AD
Oldest evidence (drawings) of wrestling--20000 BC
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62147

The absence of the techniques in a manual is hardly evidence that they didn't exist before that.

Either way, these techniques have been a part of CMA for at least 90 years...that's long enough as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I suspect they've been around almost as long as wrestling, but I have no evidence, just my feeling.

Still, it's not BJJ. Kung fu ground fighting is mostly geared towards getting back up--I don't think there's anyway around that.

When Manual were actually being made before that one and they were about H2H combat and they didn't show anything remotely like that stuff and that stuff was only shown AFTER the influence of Judo, its enough to make one wonder and rightly so.
Even more so when the recognised grappling arts passed down DIDN'T have those in them.
Now, it may seem hard to believe that TCMA didn't have a comprehensive ground grappling mae because we know they had a standing one.
BUT, the fact is that the reason ground grappling become more "en vouge" in Japan was that certain ryu devoted themselves to it.
I don't think that happened in China.

[ShaolinDan]

I don't get it...a very small percentage of the techniques shown are 'groundfighting' in the mma sense...almost always the one applying the technique has at least one foot planted on the ground. There are I think only two techniques shown being applied from the bottom position. To me this is just a selection of the same classical chin na that's been around for centuries...if there aren't manuals, there are still forms, poems, and pictures.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't get it...a very small percentage of the techniques shown are 'groundfighting' in the mma sense...almost always the one applying the technique has at least one foot planted on the ground. There are I think only two techniques shown being applied from the bottom position. To me this is just a selection of the same classical chin na that's been around for centuries...if there aren't manuals, there are still forms, poems, and pictures.

I have that book, there are many ground grappl8ing techniques.
But I adressed your point here:

Now, it may seem hard to believe that TCMA didn't have a comprehensive ground grappling mainly because we know they had a standing one.
BUT, the fact is that the reason ground grappling become more "en vouge" in Japan was that certain ryu devoted themselves to it.
I don't think that happened in China.

Standing grapplng and ground grappling are two different things and while there is some minor transference, just because a system has tons of standing locks, doesn't mean its practioners can apply them in the context of ground grappling, case in point Aikido.

[ShaolinDan]

Ok, well, I guess the techs that would change my impression are missing from the video selection.

Still, considering the long history of wrestling all over the world (including China), I've got to believe that Judo revived the interest, rather than created it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, well, I guess the techs that would change my impression are missing from the video selection.

Still, considering the long history of wrestling all over the world (including China), I've got to believe that Judo revived the interest, rather than created it...

There was some "aversion" to ground grappling in the TCMA culture, no such aversion existed in the Japanese culture, add to that the issue of grappling with armour and you get submissions, joint locks and small weapons being used while grappling on the ground.
Most wrestling systems were based on victory going to the guy NOT on the ground or the guy pinning the guy on the ground and even the battlefield systems stressed getting OFF the ground as opposed to grappling there.
The degree of development that lead to BJJ:
Jujutsu-Judo-BJJ
Was unique in this regard because it started where the vast majority of grappling systems ended.
Of course that is NOT to say that there weren't others grappling systems with ground work.

[ShaolinDan]

There was some "aversion" to ground grappling in the TCMA culture, no such aversion existed in the Japanese culture, add to that the issue of grappling with armour and you get submissions, joint locks and small weapons being used while grappling on the ground.
Most wrestling systems were based on victory going to the guy NOT on the ground or the guy pinning the guy on the ground and even the battlefield systems stressed getting OFF the ground as opposed to grappling there.
The degree of development that lead to BJJ:
Jujutsu-Judo-BJJ
Was unique in this regard because it started where the vast majority of grappling systems ended.
Of course that is NOT to say that there weren't others grappling systems with ground work.

Agreed (except for the 'no aversion to ground fighting existing in Japanese culture'... 'less' maybe). I will have to get my hands on that book someday and see what's really in there.

[Jimbo]

In addition to the concept of grappling in armor, etc., I would also imagine that since Japanese traditionally sat/knelt on the floor a lot indoors at home, when visiting, etc., thus another reason for a greater reliance on ground grappling than the Chinese.

When I think of traditional Japanese empty-hand fighting methods, the first things that come to mind are throwing, locking/choking/ground grappling. And also Sumo. Not karate, which only took root there less than a century ago, and for a time was looked down upon as 'foreign' and brutish.

[Ben Gash]

Having just gone through it, there are only 14 ground fighting techniques in it, and only half a dozen that may or may not have a Judo connection.
At the end of the day though, what does it matter? Style purity is a fairly modern concept, and here we have a CMA grappling book that predates BJJ.