Reasons why Kung Fu will be endlessly debated

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Lately I have been thinking alot about why the debates and aruments regarding Kung Fu happen and thought I would put them to writing:

1. Kung Fu is constantly compared to MMA- Since MMA is the new age movement so to speak of martial arts it is completely understandable why the two are compared. But in the end MMA is simply a venue of competition and Kung Fu is a generic term for a style of fighting that at one time had connections to China. Feel free to beat this continuous dead horse!

2. The Internal/External Debate- The concept of rooting priciples, fluidity in motion, using your opponent's weight and/or strength against them, and relation of the body and advanced breathing prinicples are nothing magic, mystical, or secret. Internal is External, External is Internal, the Yin and Yang approach is well suited, and applicable to these training methods and ideologies. Chasing around ideas of mythical powers may be fun, but quite laughable.

3. Cross Training in Kung Fu- Systems with deficiencies and more so people who are wishing to correct these deficiencies honor both their style and the masters who forged it by cross training. I do not consider purists like this do be traditionalists, they are collectors and keepers of relics which matter only to their interests and not that of the system as it was originally intended.

4. I don't see anything wrong with providing video proof of something to convince someone of it's worth. If you make claims of something that someone here does not believe or that YOU want to prove to them, the burden of that proof falls on you. In this day and age, it is quite easy to record and upload something. If it is worthwhile, you may have spread your knowledge to other like minded Kung Fu stylists who now respect your opinion and can appreciate you insight, we all learn this way.

5. Living off the past acheivements of masters- Perhaps your master was a great Lei Tai fighter who killed many evil foreigners who threatened his people. Great, so what have you done? What we do with our knowledge and power defines us as single men (or women). If you want respect, go out and earn it. Otherwise, you are nothing more than a wannabe no different than the fat ***** who sits on the sidelines of a football game and talks about how everyone sucks, even though he never played a day in his life.

We all walk a path we choose, but often times that path changes as life goes on. We see things for what they really are and experience things as they are meant to be experienced.

That or you choose to wander aimlessly through the woods.:)

[mooyingmantis]

Very well put!

[wenshu]

1. Kung Fu is constantly compared to MMA- Since MMA is the new age movement so to speak of martial arts it is completely understandable why the two are compared.
2. The Internal/External Debate- The concept of rooting priciples, fluidity in motion, using your opponent's weight and/or strength against them, and relation of the body and advanced breathing prinicples are nothing magic, mystical, or secret. Internal is External, External is Internal, the Yin and Yang approach is well suited, and applicable to these training methods and ideologies. Chasing around ideas of mythical powers may be fun, but quite laughable.

Oftentimes native Chinese speakers will call it "Chinese gong fu" not just gong fu. Now this is only my interpretation but the implication is that there are other forms of gong fu that are not Chinese such as Thai or BJJ or boxing. I'm reaching but it kind of makes sense.

I think the MMA debate is necessary and good however annoying and repetitive it may be. It forces an admittedly small percentage of people to look critically at their practice. Chinese gong fu SHOULD be able to compete in modern MMA and it is really the fault of the community of practitioners that it's not. But people who hang out on gong fu message boards who have no other abiding interest than to deride and belittle gong fu culture are akin to a fat wannabe jock who couldn't make the cut as a JV team bench warmer making fun of the wannabe nerds who couldn't make the Jr. Science club.

These high minded ideals about internal methods are already present in ALL extant Chinese martial arts. The Song-Confuncian Buddhist Daoist syncretism, balance of hard and soft, jing, qi, shen, the taiji so on and so forth.

Those beholden to the superiority of styles labeled internal are mindlessly propagating a Republican era marketing strategy, nothing more. Obstinately defending obtuse cultural prejudices when they have not the faintest idea about nor any inclination to investigate the social, economic and political environments out of which they developed. The Chinese are bad enough with the cultural superstitions and myths, but once some westerners get a hold of it and start compounding it with their own wild misinterpretations. . .
(http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2011/10/22/northern-ireland-man-tries-to-create-gold-using-his-own-feces/)

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe there should be a discussion on why anyone should care?

I personally don't care what anyone thinks about anything. I mean emotionally, I like others people's opinions when they are fascinating for some or other reason, but the debate about whether Kung Fu is this or that, or that other thing over there, is immaterial to me, because it is any or all of them according to one's person perspective.

The argument is usually boring, but information about history or theories or principles can be interesting to me.

[AJM]

Everything is cyclical. To me, MMA is simply putting all the elements back together that were separated in Japanese martial arts. Gong Fu has all this anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There were many JMA that were "complete" in the MMA way:
Jujutsu systems always covered all the ranges, regardless of specialization.
TCMA tended to also cover all the ranges but they typically were also specialized, you don't see ground grappling in Taiji, you don't see an over emphasis on throws in Wing Chun, to name two examples.
Correct kung fu should indeed include:
strikes
locks
throws
submissions
But you knwo what?
So should almost every other MA and most make the claim that they do too.
Context:
the MA of combat Boxing for example:
Has strikes (check)
Has throws (trips and sweeps mostly) (check)
Has locks ( locking up in the clinch) ( check)
Has subs ( submission via strikes and stand up chokes) (check).

[MightyB]

I do kung fu so that one day I can be a bad guy like in an anime movie... an evil business man, armed with a jian, wearing a kick arse suit.

MMAers are at best the thug underling henchmen - they are never the evil syndicate boss like a kung fu man!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that if more TCMA would get out from under their little "bubble" and experience what other MA and modes of training have to offer, the vast majority of these debates would disappear.
One thing I have found is that those MA that have experienced a "world view" of MA do NOT have the typical "head in sand" view.
When you've seen first hand the different methods and results and exprienced them, you realize that it truly is the "same thing with a different label".

[MightyB]

I honestly don't care too much either way. Sometimes it's fun to play MMA, sometimes I just want to go to town with my jian. I don't want to achieve anything any more - just play-fu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I honestly don't care too much either way. Sometimes it's fun to play MMA, sometimes I just want to go to town with my jian. I don't want to achieve anything any more - just play-fu!

You stop giving a **** when you are able to take the **** that others shovel.
Some can do it, others can't.

[Hardwork108]

1. Kung Fu is constantly compared to MMA- Since MMA is the new age movement so to speak of martial arts it is completely understandable why the two are compared. But in the end MMA is simply a venue of competition and Kung Fu is a generic term for a style of fighting that at one time had connections to China. Feel free to beat this continuous dead horse!

For those of us who actually practice kung fu, the TCMAs still have connections with China and always will!



2. The Internal/External Debate- The concept of rooting priciples, fluidity in motion, using your opponent's weight and/or strength against them,

So, you think that these concepts do not exist in External TCMA, or MA in general? I believe that like most people here you misunderstand the Internals.


and relation of the body and advanced breathing prinicples are nothing magic, mystical, or secret.
The fact that there are advanced methodologies of any kind would imply that not all people know them. This in turn would imply that more many, they are secret.;)

As for the magical or mystical, then I would say that those terms are heard more often from non-TCMAists while they ridicule Internal concepts that they have never trained, NOT from most Internalists.



Internal is External, External is Internal, the Yin and Yang approach is well suited, and applicable to these training methods and ideologies.

By the same token and using the Yin Yang principle, can one say that night is day, day is night, black is white, white is black? Of course not!

The yin and yang (Internal and External) are always related, which is different from being the same!


Chasing around ideas of mythical powers may be fun, but quite laughable.
Again chasing ideas of "mythical power" is something only the non-TCMA practitioners (including those who think they practice TCMAs), use to ridicule scientific training concepts that they have no experience in.


3. Cross Training in Kung Fu- Systems with deficiencies and more so people who are wishing to correct these deficiencies honor both their style and the masters who forged it by cross training. I do not consider purists like this do be traditionalists, they are collectors and keepers of relics which matter only to their interests and not that of the system as it was originally intended.

Traditional kung fu styles are seen as relics, only by those who have never practiced them in an authentic manner, and hence have ended up with inefficient methodologies.

As for cross training, as you, yourself imply, the old masters cross trained and created many of these styles. Of course, they fitted and accommodated given techniques within certain principles/concepts/methodologies that gave their particular style their distinct essence. Anyway, suffice to say that in China, the kung fu masters were crosstraining long before the birth of the beloved Ken Shamrock.....LOL!


4. I don't see anything wrong with providing video proof of something to convince someone of it's worth. If you make claims of something that someone here does not believe or that YOU want to prove to them, the burden of that proof falls on you. In this day and age, it is quite easy to record and upload something. If it is worthwhile, you may have spread your knowledge to other like minded Kung Fu stylists who now respect your opinion and can appreciate you insight, we all learn this way.

Facts are facts, independent of the fact wether someone can provide a video of it for people who have never trained TCMAs in their lives. ;)


5. Living off the past acheivements of masters- Perhaps your master was a great Lei Tai fighter who killed many evil foreigners who threatened his people. Great, so what have you done? What we do with our knowledge and power defines us as single men (or women). If you want respect, go out and earn it.

Past masters having won challenge matches, street fights, etc. proves that he systems are FUNCTIONAL. That is all that is important. It doesn not mean that their students need to go out and fight challenge matches, it just means that what they are learning is practical (if taught properly) if they ever need to use it. That is all!


Otherwise, you are nothing more than a wannabe no different than the fat ***** who sits on the sidelines of a football game and talks about how everyone sucks, even though he never played a day in his life.
That sounds suspiciously like the MMA-ists or the pseudo-kung fu-ists that criticize the TCMAs, without ever having practiced them authentically.....LOL!


We all walk a path we choose, but often times that path changes as life goes on. We see things for what they really are and experience things as they are meant to be experienced.
YOu have just described my kung fu path!


That or you choose to wander aimlessly through the woods.:)

Don't get me started on those fellas!!!

[David Jamieson]

Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.

"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.

"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.

"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.

They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.

The moral of the story is that there may be some truth to what someone says. Sometimes we can see that truth and sometimes not because they may have different perspective which we may not agree too. So, rather than arguing like the blind men, we should say, "Maybe you have your reasons."

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think that if more TCMA would get out from under their little "bubble" and experience what other MA and modes of training have to offer, the vast majority of these debates would disappear.
One thing I have found is that those MA that have experienced a "world view" of MA do NOT have the typical "head in sand" view.
When you've seen first hand the different methods and results and exprienced them, you realize that it truly is the "same thing with a different label".

This is very true. I find the saddest thing is that most all martial arts have some value to them and many are similiar in both approach and technique. There are only so many ways the human body moves, and many of these methods are the same.

For example:

Karate Reverse Punch- Comes from the back hand, held at the ribcage or at the head (depending on the target) the fist turns over as the punch is rotated forward, feet, legs, hips, torso all work together for impact power.

Boxing Cross- Same as above.

Pai Lum Side Thrust Kick- From front or side stance, back leg steps, front leg chambers, kick shoots out kicking with the heel and the hips turned over, re-chamber, back to stance.

Taekwondo- Same as above. (According to one lesser member here, Taekwondo has no value.:rolleyes:)

Muay Thai Plum- After entering your opponent's space, hands shoot behind the neck for head control. Forearm press down across opponents collarbones, head control is key. Where the head goes, the body follows.

Shuai Jiao Clinch- Same as above. (This is merely a part of Shuai Jiao but the point is taken.)

Now ask yourself this, does it matter where something came from. I'm sure all of have worked out with a fellow martial artist that taught us something and we learned from it. Does that stagnate what you know because it came from another source??:confused:

In the end we are all humans with two arms and two legs, nothing more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is very true. I find the saddest thing is that most all martial arts have some value to them and many are similiar in both approach and technique. There are only so many ways the human body moves, and many of these methods are the same.

For example:

Karate Reverse Punch- Comes from the back hand, held at the ribcage or at the head (depending on the target) the fist turns over as the punch is rotated forward, feet, legs, hips, torso all work together for impact power.

Boxing Cross- Same as above.

Pai Lum Side Thrust Kick- From front or side stance, back leg steps, front leg chambers, kick shoots out kicking with the heel and the hips turned over, re-chamber, back to stance.

Taekwondo- Same as above. (According to one lesser member here, Taekwondo has no value.:rolleyes:)

Muay Thai Plum- After entering your opponent's space, hands shoot behind the neck for head control. Forearm press down across opponents collarbones, head control is key. Where the head goes, the body follows.

Shuai Jiao Clinch- Same as above. (This is merely a part of Shuai Jiao but the point is taken.)

Now ask yourself this, does it matter where something came from. I'm sure all of have worked out with a fellow martial artist that taught us something and we learned from it. Does that stagnate what you know because it came from another source??:confused:

In the end we are all humans with two arms and two legs, nothing more.

The old adage:
When I was a beginner a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick.
When I become more experienced a punch wasn't just a punch and a kick wasn't just a kick.
Now that I am expereinced, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick,

[hskwarrior]

The old adage:
When I was a beginner a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick.
When I become more experienced a punch wasn't just a punch and a kick wasn't just a kick.
Now that I am expereinced, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick,

Soooooo.....wudduhya sayin? huh? LOL JK......

[Dragonzbane76]

TCMA does not deal with the reality of ground fighting. What "some" have posted as "evidence" is flimsy speculation on things they have never done. You have to know something before you can comment on it in a knowledgeable manner. (ground) TCMA presents a bland overview of techniques that do not delve into deeper work in that sector. My opinion and it will stay the same unless someone can present me with "hard" evidence to counter. It's not a bash on TCMA, most of the stand up is great, it has many priceless contributions in the MA world.

Boxing doesn't have ground work. You don't see all these boxers getting all bent out of shape when they are told they don't. They agree.

[Hardwork108]

TCMA does not deal with the reality of ground fighting. What "some" have posted as "evidence" is flimsy speculation on things they have never done. You have to know something before you can comment on it in a knowledgeable manner.


Interesting, as this concept never stopped the MMA-ists from cluelessly criticising the TCMAs and suggesting improvements. LOL!


(ground) TCMA presents a bland overview of techniques that do not delve into deeper work in that sector. My opinion and it will stay the same unless someone can present me with "hard" evidence to counter.

Your "opinion" is just another among dozens of opinions of people in this forum who do not practice the TCMAs. IT will only carry weight when you decide to actually decide to practice authentic TCMAs for some years.


It's not a bash on TCMA, most of the stand up is great, it has many priceless contributions in the MA world.
I would suggest that one of those contributions is the ability to stay on your feet when someone tries to take you down. ;)


Boxing doesn't have ground work. You don't see all these boxers getting all bent out of shape when they are told they don't. They agree.

So you do not see the difference between a methodology such as boxing and the hundreds of styles of many times profound TCMAs? I rest my case....LOL!

[YouKnowWho]

Boxing doesn't have ground work. You don't see all these boxers getting all bent out of shape when they are told they don't. They agree.
When a

- BJJ guy tells a boxer that boxing doesn't have ground game, that boxer has so much shame, he gets a rope, finds a quite place, and hangs himself.

- Boxer tells a BJJ guy that BJJ doesn't have hook punch, that BJJ guy has so much shame, he finds a quite place, stands in front of a tree, smashes his head, and cracks his skull.

[Taixuquan99]

Lately I have been thinking alot about why the debates and aruments regarding Kung Fu happen and thought I would put them to writing

1) Discussing actual kung fu technique takes work.

2) LKFMDC left, and why should YKW do all that work by himself?

That's the truth. The discussion of actual technique has been nothing, everyone is debating this crap. 99% of which is guys who talk a lot about principles of kung fu, and only a tiny amount about techniques. You couldn't fill a pamphlet with the principles of any system, all the old kung fu manuals are about techniques based around principles, but about techniques, yet somehow kung fu is this nebulous practice that teaches general motions, not specific techniques.

A few months of technical discussion between a few people showed me to be right, but we've reverted to a useless paradigm where technical discussion of kung fu isn't happening, but ten year old debates whose only cure is technical discussion of kung fu, but no discussion.

Muay thai guys don't fight and then learn their system, they learn their system and when they're ready within the context of the system, they fight. Same with bjj, mma, kickboxing. Only people slagging on kung fu recommend otherwise, and some kung fu people listen, and of course, that doesn't go well, because if you don't train for the venue, you will be at a disadvantage.

The problem with pretty much all the kung fu fights online where the kung fu guy gets creamed, is the kung fu guy literally does nothing relevant to the fight, because they did not train to read another person pre-contact, post-contact, period. The solution isn't "enter the ring", the solution is train as if you are, then enter the ring if you so choose. The whole paradigm here now is the opposite, and it's useless. I don't care what a person's fight history is, if we're discussing kung fu, and they don't reference anything more than a principle as what they use from the system, that's not a system of kung fu, that's an idea kung fu gave you. That's what's being espoused here now, and it's effectively death to kung fu. Without more technical knowledge, there will never be more fighters coming from these systems.

Bleck.

And that goes for the suggestion that some people just slag on tcma, and that in fact all those people are merely conveying well formed arguments based solely around fantasy and never are first and foremost generalizing their judgment to all tma. Um, no.

[Hardwork108]

When a

- BJJ guy tells a boxer that boxing doesn't have ground game, that boxer has so much shame, he gets a rope, finds a quite place, and hangs himself.

- Boxer tells a BJJ guy that BJJ doesn't have hook punch, that BJJ guy has so much shame, he finds a quite place, stands in front of a tree, smashes his head, and cracks his skull.

I hope what you say is true, because then hopefully soon there will be less of them posting in this forum. :D ;):)

[Dragonzbane76]

I hope what you say is true, because then hopefully soon there will be less of them posting in this forum.

That went right over your head lol. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

1) Discussing actual kung fu technique takes work.

2) LKFMDC left, and why should YKW do all that work by himself?

That's the truth. The discussion of actual technique has been nothing, everyone is debating this crap. 99% of which is guys who talk a lot about principles of kung fu, and only a tiny amount about techniques. You couldn't fill a pamphlet with the principles of any system, all the old kung fu manuals are about techniques based around principles, but about techniques, yet somehow kung fu is this nebulous practice that teaches general motions, not specific techniques.

A few months of technical discussion between a few people showed me to be right, but we've reverted to a useless paradigm where technical discussion of kung fu isn't happening, but ten year old debates whose only cure is technical discussion of kung fu, but no discussion.

Muay thai guys don't fight and then learn their system, they learn their system and when they're ready within the context of the system, they fight. Same with bjj, mma, kickboxing. Only people slagging on kung fu recommend otherwise, and some kung fu people listen, and of course, that doesn't go well, because if you don't train for the venue, you will be at a disadvantage.

The problem with pretty much all the kung fu fights online where the kung fu guy gets creamed, is the kung fu guy literally does nothing relevant to the fight, because they did not train to read another person pre-contact, post-contact, period. The solution isn't "enter the ring", the solution is train as if you are, then enter the ring if you so choose. The whole paradigm here now is the opposite, and it's useless. I don't care what a person's fight history is, if we're discussing kung fu, and they don't reference anything more than a principle as what they use from the system, that's not a system of kung fu, that's an idea kung fu gave you. That's what's being espoused here now, and it's effectively death to kung fu. Without more technical knowledge, there will never be more fighters coming from these systems.

Bleck.

And that goes for the suggestion that some people just slag on tcma, and that in fact all those people are merely conveying well formed arguments based solely around fantasy and never are first and foremost generalizing their judgment to all tma. Um, no.

The funny thing is when I do try and talk about techniques specifically often it is ignored or reverts back to Kung Fu vs. Sport crap debate. (That or of course I am not a "true" Kung Fu guy). Hell, there was a breakdown of technique in this thread. But honestly man I believe people come here anymore to simply spew their crap and argue. For every knowledgable poster of TCMA like David Ross and John Wang you have fifteen idiots who want to argue with them or others about how they don't know some secret technique or how they are MMAist or other such drivel.

This was one of the main reasons I stopped posting here for a while and got fed up with the forum. Although maybe a little overdramatic, I also understand why Ross banned himself!!

[Scott R. Brown]

I also understand why Ross banned himself.

He banned himself, because the forum has become a glittering jewel of mediocrity!

[David Jamieson]

He banned himself, because the forum has become a glittering jewel of mediocrity!

I disagree. I feel he banned himself because he took his ball and left the sandbox.
Pure ego and purely not being able to use the forum as his personal toilet anymore.

[Snipsky]

I disagree. I feel he banned himself because he took his ball and left the sandbox.
Pure ego and purely not being able to use the forum as his personal toilet anymore.

I find it kind of suspect as Mr Ross chose to ban himself shorty after Ray Pina challenged him. No one else noticed this? :confused:

[Scott R. Brown]

He banned himself, because the forum has become a glittering jewel of mediocrity!


I disagree. I feel he banned himself because he took his ball and left the sandbox.
Pure ego and purely not being able to use the forum as his personal toilet anymore.

This coming from the Forum's new Pea**** who proudly created the mediocrity by over moderating this section and then breaks the rules he enforces here in other sections of the Board!:rolleyes:

But Dave is the two year old!:eek:

[Hardwork108]

I disagree. I feel he banned himself because he took his ball and left the sandbox.
Pure ego and purely not being able to use the forum as his personal toilet anymore.

You could be right, you know.

I seem to also remember that Ray Pina was proposing to touch hands with him - I assume in a friendly manner - but this may have also ruffled Ross's feathers and encouraged him to ban himself to "diffuse" the situation and avoid a possibly embarassing situation. Who knows......

[Hardwork108]

I find it kind of suspect as Mr Ross chose to ban himself shorty after Ray Pina challenged him. No one else noticed this? :confused:

LOL, I think we were referring to this and writing our posts more or less at the same time. :eek:

[David Jamieson]

This coming from the Forum's new Pea**** who proudly created the mediocrity by over moderating this section and then breaks the rules he enforces here in other sections of the Board!:rolleyes:

But Dave is the two year old!:eek:

Couldn't resist throwing a barb eh Scott?
Whatever :rolleyes:

You have a lot of tantrums, so I don't think you're the one to be dolling out advice or chastisement. At all.

Truth is, if you think meat heads bashing kungfu day in and day out is better than a slight ebb in the tide of useless posting, then perhaps you are participating in the wrong discussion group?

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. You say it all wrong sometimes and just increase animosity towards you in the same way as anyone else who degrades into insults and meaningless barbs for the sake of it.

Thank goodness you aren't a moderator, because you aren't moderate and you seem to think it's ok to bow and bend to asinine behaviours based on internet relationships?

yeah, you can take that outside. But I've explained this to you before, several times. Maybe you just have a problem with people in positions of authority no matter how minor, if it affords them any perceived modicum of power over you, whoop! Panties in bunch ON! :p

you gotta chill a bit more. it really affects your liver. Try and separate your trolling from your seriousness and while you're at it, get a grip man.

[Scott R. Brown]

Couldn't resist throwing a barb eh Scott?
Whatever :rolleyes:

You have a lot of tantrums, so I don't think you're the one to be dolling out advice or chastisement. At all.

Truth is, if you think meat heads bashing kungfu day in and day out is better than a slight ebb in the tide of useless posting, then perhaps you are participating in the wrong discussion group?

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. You say it all wrong sometimes and just increase animosity towards you in the same way as anyone else who degrades into insults and meaningless barbs for the sake of it.

Thank goodness you aren't a moderator, because you aren't moderate and you seem to think it's ok to bow and bend to asinine behaviours based on internet relationships?

yeah, you can take that outside. But I've explained this to you before, several times. Maybe you just have a problem with people in positions of authority no matter how minor, if it affords them any perceived modicum of power over you, whoop! Panties in bunch ON! :p

you gotta chill a bit more. it really affects your liver. Try and separate your trolling from your seriousness and while you're at it, get a grip man.

You need it once in awhile David because you have an inflated opinion of yourself that's does not coincide with your demonstrated maturity.

You cry about my dig to you, but ignore your own dig just now to David Ross! Who is generally not present any longer to defend himself. You cannot seem to recognize your own repeated hypocrisy!

I have tried to educate you on appropriate behavior for one with the kind of authority you now have, yet you contiue to over react, behave hypocrtically, and strut yourself around like an insecure little man trying to validate his self worth.

At least I dig you to your face like a stand up guy and take what you have to dish back, regardless of how inadequate your retorts are!

Act appropriate to your position of authority and I will be happy to leave you alone. Until then try to recognize I have left you and your little fiefdom alone for months for you to run inappropriately. So there is no need for you to act like a two year old when you get a very occasional yet well deserved reprimand from an adult.

[GeneChing]

A forum is an assembly place for the discussion of questions of public interest. Debates should be encouraged. It's the rudeness that's annoying. That being said, I enjoy some good smack talk as much as the next guy - perhaps it's a martial thing. The only problem is that some people are too thin-skinned when it comes to chides, and others are again, too rude.


Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village.

http://speeches.com/Treaty/elephant.jpg

[David Jamieson]

You need it once in awhile David because you have an inflated opinion of yourself that's does not coincide with your demonstrated maturity.

You cry about my dig to you, but ignore your own dig just now to David Ross! Who is generally not present any longer to defend himself. You cannot seem to recognize your own repeated hypocrisy!

I have tried to educate you on appropriate behavior for one with the kind of authority you now have, yet you contiue to over react, behave hypocrtically, and strut yourself around like an insecure little man trying to validate his self worth.

At least I dig you to your face like a stand up guy and take what you have to dish back, regardless of how inadequate your retorts are!

Act appropriate to your position of authority and I will be happy to leave you alone. Until then try to recognize I have left you and your little fiefdom alone for months for you to run inappropriately. So there is no need for you to act like a two year old when you get a very occasional yet well deserved reprimand from an adult.

Scott, you don't know me, don't presume to.
You seem to want to be seen as someone with authoritativeness, I simply can't get there because you slide into these ridiculous diatribes about how you seem to think people should act ad what they should say etc.

I go by the Ts&Cs and the correction I'll take is from the owners of this site.
Not you, or anyone else on it.

Ross has stepped over the line, tried bullying, tried ridiculing others with less than adept photoshop nonsense and badgers folk off this site and so on. So, yeah, he can stay banned as far as I'm concerned and if I never have to read his rants again it won't be too soon.

You see Scott, I am my own person and I know where I am, what I'm doing, what's acceptable and what's not. Unlike yourself who seems to think it's ok to try and push your opinion onto others and complain and moan about someone who is merely clearing out the clutter. Which you did immediately.

So, Scott, no, you may not educate me, no you may not advise me, no you may not be my friend on facebook and no I will not put up with yours or anybody esle crap. So keep it to yourself and carry on.

We will not see eye to eye on this. It's that simple. I'm a human too and have a low tolerance for manipulative blowhards.

Go educate yourself if you wanna educate someone.

[GeneChing]

lkfmdc requested to be banned for a month. I honored that. Why wouldn't I? That month expired a few days ago. He can start posting again whenever he pleases.

[David Jamieson]

Oh good, soon we'll have a choir that can sing about what an ass hole I am! lol :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Tantrum, Whine, Cry!!

Try acting with a little dignity and recognize you are crtical of me for doing EXACTLY what you just did to David Ross! You don't want a dig? Don't dig others. You want to be treated with respect? Respect others!

I know you by your REPEATED behavior over the past five or ten years! You should know by now I WAY outclass you in the retort department. You cannot compete unless I ALLOW you a handicap.

If you recall I criticized you, years ago, to the point you threw a huge fit here on the forum and ever since then I keft you alone and treated with more equanimity!

That is, until you entered you Peac0ck phase of childhood!

Here......let me teach you something else and something I have tried to help others here learn when dealing with someone you think is a troll or is generally behaving in a way that is upsetting to you......

.....don't get me wrong though, this I not upsetting to me, I am just teaching you here through example!


Watch carefully now cuz this is VERY subtle........

BTW in order to demonstrate this properly it would be benefical if you posted just one more inadequate retort. If you feel you need to post more than one that will be fine too, but it will take at least one more to make my demonstration more evident!


Thank you ahead of time!


Okay, here goes........

Go for it!

[sanjuro_ronin]

lkfmdc requested to be banned for a month. I honored that. Why wouldn't I? That month expired a few days ago. He can start posting again whenever he pleases.

I don't think we will see Dave around much, if at all.
As much as Dave liked to troll the silly people of this forum, that simpel fact is that Dave brought a perspective to this forum that is very lacking.
That people don't see that shows that they see what they WANT to see.

[Dragonzbane76]

I find it funny that he's not even around and people still talk about him. He banned himself, which is kinda funny considering. let it go. I enjoyed his insights on things, he was abrasive but only to those whom were abrasive to him most times. it's the internet people, loosen up and enjoy.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think we will see Dave around much, if at all.
As much as Dave liked to troll the silly people of this forum, that simpel fact is that Dave brought a perspective to this forum that is very lacking.
That people don't see that shows that they see what they WANT to see.

Scott, lol. whatever, carry on.

SR- I've been chatting with Dave for longer than a decade. We don't get along and he can't seem to gather up any olive branches even when offered.

So, he can stay away for all I care. Anyone that wants to chat him up can find him.
I see exactly what Dave is about after all these years. I find it as lacking as he finds me.

so what?

[wenshu]

I have an opinion.

I have an opinion about your opinion.

I have an opinion concerning your opinion about my opinion and furthermore the way you argue your opinions; I have an opinion about that too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JmA2ClUvUY&feature=player_embedded

[Hardwork108]

Scott, lol. whatever, carry on

Scott is very upset with you, because you needlessly threatened to ban me! :cool::D

[David Jamieson]

If you recall I criticized you, years ago, to the point you threw a huge fit here on the forum and ever since then I keft you alone and treated with more equanimity!

Go for it!

I am pretty sure you got it backwards there Scotty. If you look through the archive, I think I originally belittled you for this type of blowhard authority crap you like to push around because you're old and feel like you have wisdom that we should accept carte blanche.

anyway, carry on, I know what time it is with you.
:p

P.S you are above nobody, you are below the sky.

[Hardwork108]

So, he can stay away for all I care. Anyone that wants to chat him up can find him.
I see exactly what Dave is about after all these years. I find it as lacking as he finds me.

so what?

Well, unlike you, Ross will be remembered eternally as the "kung fu" hero with one of the quickest Sanda knockouts in the history of mankind!

Are you jealous, yet? :D

[David Jamieson]

Scott is very upset with you, because you needlessly threatened to ban me! :cool::D

Needlessly? I asked you to stop with the old behaviours of calling everyone who didn't share your view a "clueless idiot". that's all.

I don't think there is a big deal about your posts otherwise since your return.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Speak to it and move on. It might take one or two goes, but eventually you will either get over the hump or abandon that route for something more navigable.

that's life man.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would like to thank the academy for this award, first and foremost.

You see, when I started this thread all that time ago (nearly 48 hours) I set out to prove that we as a forum could look past our differences and come together as one strong, proud voice of togetherness. No matter if you were a LARPer, Tap Out Douche, Stroker of Long Poles, Bearer of Long Poles, if you fought on the Lei Tai or swung a Quan Do around in the parking lot of Wal Mart.

I say this to you now, join me in the good fight as the "man" tries to turn us against one another. We can rise above this and defeat him in his conquest.

They May Take Our Forms, But They Will Never Take...........Our Fairies!!!

http://thewoods.backwoodscompatible.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/braveheart_scene.jpg

[Lucas]

yaaayy!

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID8928/images/melgibson.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scott, lol. whatever, carry on.

SR- I've been chatting with Dave for longer than a decade. We don't get along and he can't seem to gather up any olive branches even when offered.

So, he can stay away for all I care. Anyone that wants to chat him up can find him.
I see exactly what Dave is about after all these years. I find it as lacking as he finds me.

so what?

Is that a retorical question? LOL !

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.retrobuddha.com/2010/ladies/black060_01.gif

[David Jamieson]

Is that a retorical question? LOL !

lol, nope, just a point that there are far better sources on sportive combatives and integrated martial arts than the cold leftovers he offers so much. :)

[Hardwork108]

Needlessly? I asked you to stop with the old behaviours of calling everyone who didn't share your view a "clueless idiot". that's all.

Where did I call everyone who did not share my opinions, "clueless idiots"?:confused:



I don't think there is a big deal about your posts otherwise since your return.
Actually there is a lot for people who have not practiced the TCMAs completly to learn from. Such as the fact that the TCMAs do address the ground fighting scenario and that the Internals are valid and effective methodologies.


Don't sweat the small stuff. Speak to it and move on. It might take one or two goes, but eventually you will either get over the hump or abandon that route for something more navigable.
I really don't know what you are talking about here.:confused:

I have a great life; a great wife and plenty of humping, if you know what I mean.;)


that's life man.

And life is GOOD! :)

[wenshu]

or swung a Quan Do around in the parking lot of Wal Mart.

It was a Target actually.

[David Jamieson]

It was a Target actually.

It's cooler when you pronounce it with the french silent T at the end.
Like Targét...

[bawang]

american kung fu is a form of psychosis.

[David Jamieson]

american kung fu is a form of psychosis.

participating willfully in violence is a psychosis. :p

[wenshu]

american kung fu is a form of psychosis.

So is being Chinese.

[taai gihk yahn]

1) Discussing actual kung fu technique takes work.
The discussion of actual technique has been nothing, everyone is debating this crap. 99% of which is guys who talk a lot about principles of kung fu, and only a tiny amount about techniques. You couldn't fill a pamphlet with the principles of any system, all the old kung fu manuals are about techniques based around principles, but about techniques, yet somehow kung fu is this nebulous practice that teaches general motions, not specific techniques.

A few months of technical discussion between a few people showed me to be right, but we've reverted to a useless paradigm where technical discussion of kung fu isn't happening, but ten year old debates whose only cure is technical discussion of kung fu, but no discussion..

exactly - case in point: I interrupted a ridiculous flame war on the thread about standing on the taiji forum bec u had this guy Robinhood spewing drivel about how no one understood true internal blah blah blah without offering a shred of substance to back up his broad useless statements; of course, when i dismembered his comments, he naturally stated that my speaking in specifics was long-winded and proved how I knew nothing about internals; so I asked him to answer some very specific questions about standing practice, which, of course, he couldn't, and so he promptly disappeared; subsequent to that, I posted several times regarding specific details of standing practice from a variety of viewpoints, with the goal to stimulate discussion; the outcome? so far, the sound of chirping crickets has been resounding...

why is that? simple: it's easier to flame (and lord knows, I luv a gud flame war) than to speak dispassionately about something on a technical level for a sustained period of time, bec it takes discipline of argument to stay on point and reason through things when u hav an emotional attachment to certain viewpoints; if u want to hav a productive discussion, u need to depersonalize and speak to salient facts in a measured way; otherwise, it's futile

[bawang]

So is being Chinese.

i am the only sane man in the world.

*rubs testicles

[Fa Xing]

i am the only sane man in the world.

*rubs testicles

That is the most awesome statement ever. Ever.

[-N-]

1) The discussion of actual technique has been nothing, everyone is debating this crap. 99% of which is guys who talk a lot about principles of kung fu, and only a tiny amount about techniques.

+1

Kungfu wasteland.

The real technique discussions are very short lived and underappreciated here.

People complain about secrets, then when the secrets are revealed and given away for free...

Nothing.

[YouKnowWho]

+1

Kungfu wasteland.

The real technique discussions are very short lived and underappreciated here.

People complain about secrets, then when the secrets are revealed and given away for free...

Nothing.

It's not fun to discuss "principle" either. When people talk about

- internal power,
- internal structure,
- internature connection,
- snake engine,
- 6DFV,
- core engine,
- ...

It's just too abstract to have any meaningful discussion.

If we discuss "how to counter a hook punch" by dodging your head under the hook, we can then continue the discussion that if you don't put your hand on the elbow of your opponent's punching arm, your opponent may give you an elbow strike on your head, or a reverse head lock (guillotine) on your neck. When a beginner sees this information online, he may put his hand on his opponent's elbow next time he dodges a hook punch. A small piece information can help someone to improve his combat skill. That's the difference between "principle" discussion and "technique" discussion.

[-N-]

When a beginner sees this information online, he may put his hand on his opponent's elbow next time he dodges a hook punch. A small piece information can help someone to improve his combat skill. That's the difference between "principle" discussion and "technique" discussion.

That's why teachers tell their students to shut up and just practice.

A punch in the face sometimes is more educational than 20 pages of translations and theories.

[Northwind]

Although I wanted to dodge this entire idiotic thread...I did want to pop in on this sub-topic that is getting out of hand: technique vs. principle.

Principles of TCMA are not all poetic deep things...Some principles are fairly straight to the point, yet still encompassing a great many actual body movements and can be talked about and discussed. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here.

[Scott R. Brown]

OK folks.......the demonstration on how to deal with Trolls has ended.

Thank you David for partcipating with a few more lame and impotent retorts. I know it wasn't that difficult for you appear impotent.

The point of this little demonstration everyone, was to show how to deal with Trolls without the need for over moderation by an adolescent Peac0ck with delusions of grandeur. One who criticizes and bans others for doing what he does himself and then flaunts himself, as if driving the forum into mediocrity is some great achievement! You all know who I mean!

You see, all the problems we had with Trollls could have been dealt with by simply NOT RESPONDING TO THEM! We didn't need over moderation if everyone would have just taken responsibility for themselves.

I mean, COME ON we train to hurt other people, which involves being hurt ourselves in training and in real life encounters, but some people here can't handle having their feelings hurt. This should be part of your training. If you can't take ridicule from internet nobodies, maybe you shouldn't be training in the martial arts in the first place. Or if you recognize your emotional weakness then use public ridicule from dimwits on the internet as a means of training. Use it to learn to not care what others think.

Personally I don't care why other people train. They can dance, they can believe in internal magic, they can think BJJ is the cats meow. If they get something out of it good for them. But if you want to be a tough guy, strong enough to fight people physically then man up a bit, because if your emotional state is so fragile you cannot ignore someone you think is harrassing you or insulting your style or sifu or lineage history, etc, you are too weak to believe you are any kind of martial artist.

In the famous words of bawang.......DO MORE SQUATS!!!:p

[Northwind]

Judging by Scott's response, I'm guessing there were a few recent posts that turned the tide of the topic a bit and so I sounded rather silly. Sorry then :P

[Scott R. Brown]

Judging by Scott's response, I'm guessing there were a few recent posts that turned the tide of the topic a bit and so I sounded rather silly. Sorry then :P

No, no, just the usual thread side bar!;)

[Scott R. Brown]

exactly - case in point: I interrupted a ridiculous flame war on the thread about standing on the taiji forum bec u had this guy Robinhood spewing drivel about how no one understood true internal blah blah blah without offering a shred of substance to back up his broad useless statements; of course, when i dismembered his comments, he naturally stated that my speaking in specifics was long-winded and proved how I knew nothing about internals; so I asked him to answer some very specific questions about standing practice, which, of course, he couldn't, and so he promptly disappeared; subsequent to that, I posted several times regarding specific details of standing practice from a variety of viewpoints, with the goal to stimulate discussion; the outcome? so far, the sound of chirping crickets has been resounding...

why is that? simple: it's easier to flame (and lord knows, I luv a gud flame war) than to speak dispassionately about something on a technical level for a sustained period of time, bec it takes discipline of argument to stay on point and reason through things when u hav an emotional attachment to certain viewpoints; if u want to hav a productive discussion, u need to depersonalize and speak to salient facts in a measured way; otherwise, it's futile

Actually, you are being way too modest. The fact is, once you have posted your well thought out and comprehensively explained perspective, there is frequently nothing left to say!

Like I warned Robinhood, I told him, he would be sorry, but nooOOOooo, he would just HAD to keep pushing!

[PalmStriker]

Maybe there should be a discussion on why anyone should care?

I personally don't care what anyone thinks about anything. I mean emotionally, I like others people's opinions when they are fascinating for some or other reason, but the debate about whether Kung Fu is this or that, or that other thing over there, is immaterial to me, because it is any or all of them according to one's person perspective.

The argument is usually boring, but information about history or theories or principles can be interesting to me.
Yep, no further bean re-frying for me either. Burnt beans smell like **** napalm.