Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?

[Eric Olson]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu this never occurred to anyone? Seriously?

EO

[Golden Arms]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu

EO

Likely cultural reasons are the culprit.

[Eric Olson]

Likely cultural reasons are the culprit.

Really? This would trump survival reasons?

EO

[wenshu]

Going to the ground on a medieval battlefield is a GREAT idea.

It is certainly possible that ground fighting was practiced, perhaps circa the Tang dynasty, however it is clearly not extant and without historically verifiable proof it is all just speculation. It stands to reason that since Japan appropriated everything else from the Tang why not that as well. I imagine that the Emperors did not find watching two wrestlers lying practically motionless on top of each other particularly entertaining. Modern SJ competitions reset fighters after a few seconds if they aren't fighting for grips or attempting techniques otherwise it is considered a waste of time. As I said, just speculation.

[mawali]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu

EO

The honourable thing in CMA used to be that when the 'loser' was on the ground, the winner was the one standing. It was a test of equals and a way to asses the character of the 'opponent'.
To my understanding, groundfighting is a sport so the rules would be different from 'actual combat' keeping in mind that newaza (jiujitsu) used to be trained wth throwing and hitting but based on sportive rules, judo only allowed the throwing part as the decisive way to gather points. BJJ of Maeda. re-introduction. bought a past training method into vogue keeping in mind that the oldsters never stopped training that way.

[TenTigers]

I know one teacher who said they have it, but it's "closed door."
It turned out, most of what he called closed door, everyone else in the world was already doing, only he wasn't aware of it.
It's that way in a lot of TCMA schools. Frog in the well...

Seeing how Royce Gracie really upset all the strikers' games, it makes sense (kinda) for people to have kept this stuff for insiders. This negates most people's entire fighting strategy. If everyone is fighting standup, and you take them to the ground, they are out of their element, and will lose.

[ShaolinDan]

Generally speaking, being on the ground is bad in a real (i.e. life or death, no rules) combat situation.
Personally I feel what I've seen for TCMA 'ground fighting' is sufficient for self-defense, but insufficient for sport venues that allow prolonged ground fighting.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I believe that culture plays a significant role. It may not have been that popular.

If you had the opportunity to see the book "Kung Li Chuan" by Wang Tung Feng you will see applications done from the top mount position.

You also have to understand that kung fu is what one makes of it. If you want to evolve a ground game with your kung fu, it is your right to do so. You can take your chinna to the ground if you want to. You can take your kicks to the ground if you want to. Kung fu is like that; it is your discipline-- what are you going to do with it. You do need permission to try to create an effective ground grappling method. It simply has to WORK to be accepted. You might not be the first to do so. Others may have tried it in the past and died.

mickey

[Hardwork108]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu this never occurred to anyone? Seriously?

EO

Some systems of kung fu do address the ground as a part of their curriculum. There are others who don't. I suspect those who don't will instead teach one powerful penetrative short/mid range strikes which would stop a grappler in his tracks.

[TenTigers]

Some systems of kung fu do address the ground as a part of their curriculum. There are others who don't. I suspect those who don't will instead teach one powerful penetrative short/mid range strikes which would stop a grappler in his tracks.
well, it would have to stop anyone in their tracks.
What people who have not studied grappling fail to understand, is that the grappler does not just "come at you" and then "try to take you down."
The take down is usually done using striking as a set-up. This could be a real strike, or a fake, but the shoot, or the throw, comes more from infighting range (remember JKD's terms, entering, to striking, to grappling)

[EarthDragon]

to the Chinese, ground fighting is comparing 2 dogs fighting in the dirt...... It is a cultural thing as many have said.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Some systems of kung fu do address the ground as a part of their curriculum. There are others who don't. I suspect those who don't will instead teach one powerful penetrative short/mid range strikes which would stop a grappler in his tracks.

This statement speaks volumes of how ignorant you are regarding grappling. Do me a favor, find yourself a person with six months of wrestling, judo, bjj or any other grappling art and see how well your short/mid range strikes stop him in his tracks.:D

I would ask you to video it so we can all laugh at you, (something you should be used to by now) but we both know that won't happen.;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Ground fighting was never popular until sport fighting came in to being. And most sport fighting is relatively new on the scene. There have always been wrestlers and such, but they did it for sport and intertainment, which puts it into a different category. Most TCMA was developed over a very long time and from a long time ago, mostly when it was a way to keep alive. In most conflict you would make every possible effort to get your a$$ up off the ground before someone came along and killed you. It was everyone's goal to stay on their feet. Only an idiot would want to go to the ground in a real fight where you might be looking at others getting involved. Most could or would not be able to resist a kick to your head.
When I was learning I was taught many different techniques to escape from a take down or someone sitting on you or whatever, and for the most part, it works. It will almost always work once, but once it is used on a fellow he gets wised up some. The only purpose of taking someone down would be to submit him. That is not going to work in a real fight with someone that is determined to hurt you. He taps and you let him up? Then he jumps on you again. Keep doing that and eventually he is going to get lucky, or you are going to get unlucky. It would be fine to throw him to the ground or trip him or knock him down, but then rather than jump on top of him and place yourself in danger, you kick him as he tries to recover.
So, I think the reason is really obvious. TCMA was developed for warfare and not for sport. It does not work well as a sport simply due to that fact. I suppose that you could adapt it to sport like BJJ and MMA and Judo and lots of other competitive sports. But then you would have to develop some ground fighting and grappling and end up with what is called MMA again. Your beating a dead horse again.

[Lebaufist]

The inherent flaw with the TCMA stance(pardon the pun) on grappling is its strictly coming from a dominant position and has very little in line of being supine on the bottom. Most of TCMA depends on you holding the line or staying on top.

[Lebaufist]

Also, one underlying factor in Chinese culture that everybody overlooks is the habit of being armed all the time. True combat day to day had weapons thrown in. Everybody had at least a cooking knife and they used it if they had too. It was almost a given. Weapons were the rule of the day , not unarmed combat.

[dirtyrat]

Also, one underlying factor in Chinese culture that everybody overlooks is the habit of being armed all the time. True combat day to day had weapons thrown in. Everybody had at least a cooking knife and they used it if they had too. It was almost a given. Weapons were the rule of the day , not unarmed combat.

i agree with this statement. to be practical, people would definitely train in armed combat first. and therefore majority of the training time who be devoted to this. different types of armor would have been involved as well (it would be stupid to believe otherwise) and therefore would influence the method of unarmed combat that would be trained had you lost your weapon.

[omarthefish]

One more vote in there for the armed combat connection.

Wrestling, Sport BJJ etc. it's all ritualized combat. "Real" combat is done with weapons. Always has been.

Heck, most all today's MA is for ritualized combat. A bar fight is generally even in that category. If you're fighting over a perceived insult or because some one hit on your girl you are engaging in a standard "alpha male dominance" ritual and little more.

Fighting involved in robbery, murder, war, etc....just doesn't involve a lot of groundwork.

[Hardwork108]

[/B]

This statement speaks volumes of how ignorant you are regarding grappling. Do me a favor, find yourself a person with six months of wrestling, judo, bjj or any other grappling art and see how well your short/mid range strikes stop him in his tracks.:D
Even in your beloved MMA matches, there have been occasions when a striker has stopped a takedown attempt in its tracks, more than once I might add.

Secondly, you conveniently ignored the part of my statement that said that there are TCMAs that do address ground fighting, and went on to contest my suggestion that the ones that don't, have powerful anti grappling arsenal as regards their short to mid range striking, and I should have added stand up grappling (chin-na/Kumna).


I would ask you to video it so we can all laugh at you, (something you should be used to by now) but we both know that won't happen.;)
Kung fu clueless idiots have been laughing at me in this forum for a long time. The smarter ones are laughing less now, since people like Sifu Mike Patterson, confirmed the existance of ground fighting in TCMAs and gave validity to Internal practices, that those of us who actually practice kung fu have known about for years.

So yes, someone is certainly laughing now, but it ain't you. ;)

[RenDaHai]

1. There are thousands of Kung Fu styles.

2. Most of the Kung Fu we are aware of in the west is from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan and is in no way representative of the mainland styles. Of these only a few have made a transission and the newer stuff is often heavily tainted with contempary wushu.

3. Almost ALL northern styles contain the elements 'TIE SHEN KAO' and 'DI TANG GONG' yet these two sets of technique are almost never talked about, I can only summerise most of the kung fu in the west has not got much of these elements. TSK means leaning against your body and is a lot of standing up grappling technique and close striking with shoulders hips and head. DTG is techniques 'close to the floor'.

4. DTG techniques rarely contain SUbmission holds, but contains methods for when you have fallen down and are fighting someone who is standing up. It contains methods to take them down and stand up yourslef. It contains some techniques of grappling on the floor but no Submission holds. It contians breaks and strikes then stands up.


SO the main difference is this. Actually there is a lot of ground technique, but there are few submission holds. Typically it is a attack then stand up quickly.


WHY no submission holds? Because these are designed for a ring and rules sports situation. Why lock when you can break? why go down when you should try to stand up?

In SINGLE combat, grappling on the floor is supreme. This is great. But in real life you will rarely get an oppertunity where it is safe to fight with this method. Rarer still in ancient china when everyone is carrying a weapon of some form, shoes have metal spikes on the end and people don't travel alone.

SO I ask; in ancient China, When would they ever use this? So yes there is less submission style wrestling, but a vast amount of 'on the floor technique' its called Ditang gong.

[omarthefish]

1. There are thousands of Kung Fu styles.

2. Most of the Kung Fu we are aware of in the west is from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan and is in no way representative of the mainland styles. Of these only a few have made a transission and the newer stuff is often heavily tainted with contempary wushu.

While this is true, it's also true that most of the stuff on the mainland is even MORE heavily tainted with contemporary wushu. ;)



3. Almost ALL northern styles contain the elements 'TIE SHEN KAO' and 'DI TANG GONG' yet these two sets of technique are almost never talked about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

...
TSK means leaning against your body and is a lot of standing up grappling technique and close striking with shoulders hips and head.
Not my understanding of the term. In Baji, TSK is not a category of throws; it's a specific technique, the one shown in the first technique I linked above.



WHY no submission holds? Because these are designed for a ring and rules sports situation. Why lock when you can break? why go down when you should try to stand up?
Agree on the description but not about the reasoning. The VAST majority of submission holds are breaks. Pretty much everything that isn't a choke is a break of some sort. It gets back to that thing about weapons and life and death fighting vs. ritual male combat.

The rest of your summary of ditang fighting (ditang just means "lying on the ground" btw) is spot on. Just annoys the hell out of me when people try to equate ditang fighting with submission wrestling.

[RenDaHai]

While this is true, it's also true that most of the stuff on the mainland is even MORE heavily tainted with contemporary wushu. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

...
Not my understanding of the term. In Baji, TSK is not a category of throws; it's a specific technique, the one shown in the first technique I linked above.


Agree on the description but not about the reasoning. The VAST majority of submission holds are breaks. Pretty much everything that isn't a choke is a break of some sort. It gets back to that thing about weapons and life and death fighting vs. ritual male combat.

The rest of your summary of ditang fighting (ditang just means "lying on the ground" btw) is spot on. Just annoys the hell out of me when people try to equate ditang fighting with submission wrestling.


Probably right on the Wushu side, but a lot of 'Ming jian de wushu' is still practiced here and is largely unchanged. (like peasant wushu)

I can't watch youtube (banned in China), but I know that alot of people only consider TieShenKaoDa which is the striking techniques of TSK. These are primarily hitting with the ass or hips, with the shoulder barge or head butt. But actually TSK is a term which includes all Qin na and Shuai jiao that is done from touching the body. SOme qin na is combined with shoulder or hip strikes for example. It also includes a large number of full arm and elbow strikes that are done with the blunt areas of the elbow and arm from very close range, kind of like a clothes line tech. but striking to the body and groin as well as accross throat. ALso a lot of elbows where the structure of resting your hand against your own body is employed. SInce TSK can only really be practiced against a partener and doesn't appear much in form it has not made the transission to the west so well.

I realise that a lot of submission holds are intended as a possible break, but if they were used as such submission grappling bouts would probably be quite a different affair. (if you imagine you were using sudden shocking power during your lock attempts).

YOur right, Ditang Gong is literally 'skill while lying on the floor'. And yes it is very different to submission grappling.

But i like to think that ground fighting isn't missing from kung fu, just that the strategy of such is very different.

[GETHIN]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Kung_Fu

[Frost]

Probably right on the Wushu side, but a lot of 'Ming jian de wushu' is still practiced here and is largely unchanged. (like peasant wushu)

I can't watch youtube (banned in China), but I know that alot of people only consider TieShenKaoDa which is the striking techniques of TSK. These are primarily hitting with the ass or hips, with the shoulder barge or head butt. But actually TSK is a term which includes all Qin na and Shuai jiao that is done from touching the body. SOme qin na is combined with shoulder or hip strikes for example. It also includes a large number of full arm and elbow strikes that are done with the blunt areas of the elbow and arm from very close range, kind of like a clothes line tech. but striking to the body and groin as well as accross throat. ALso a lot of elbows where the structure of resting your hand against your own body is employed. SInce TSK can only really be practiced against a partener and doesn't appear much in form it has not made the transission to the west so well.

I realise that a lot of submission holds are intended as a possible break, but if they were used as such submission grappling bouts would probably be quite a different affair. (if you imagine you were using sudden shocking power during your lock attempts).

YOur right, Ditang Gong is literally 'skill while lying on the floor'. And yes it is very different to submission grappling.

But i like to think that ground fighting isn't missing from kung fu, just that the strategy of such is very different.

Speaking as someone who HAS done grappling comps. Submissions are breaks you simply tap (hopefully) before the snap, otherwise you are off to see the attending medics, and most comps have a few breaks in them, in training you apply slow even pressure and give your partner time to tap, in comp you apply it as fast and as hard as you can the main reason you don’t see as many breaks in comps is people are good at defending and good at tapping

Fighting from the ground might not be missing, but ground fighting, in the sense of dealing with an opponent down on the ground with you trying to hit you or hurt you isn’t nearly as developed as it is in grappling, and I wager fighting from the ground against a standing opponent is also not as developed as it is in MMA, standing up under constant pressure from stomps leg and head kicks etc or sweeping a standing striking opponent is an art form MMA is very good at, im not sure I have seen similar skills a the same level in TCMA

The question really shouldn’t be was it or wasn’t it included in the past, but why don’t TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century

[ShaolinDan]

The question really shouldn’t be was it or wasn’t it included in the past, but why don’t TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century

Well,
A. Some TCMA schools do embrace and include ground fighting. One teacher from my family has been studying No Gi JJ and BJJ for close to 15 years now. His school offers regular ground instruction, and whenever he's in the area he'll do a seminar at our school.
B. Prolonged ground fighting still isn't a good option in true self-defense.

[omarthefish]

I can't watch youtube (banned in China)

Not a problem. I got it on a Chinese server as well:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/58019952-2099658804.html

Also, you should pm me your email and I will send you a tool you can use to watch youtube with. You don't even have to install it. You can just stick it on a thumb drive and use it even at internet bars.

[omarthefish]

Well,
A. Some TCMA schools do embrace and include ground fighting. One teacher from my family has been studying No Gi JJ and BJJ for close to 15 years now. His school offers regular ground instruction, and whenever he's in the area he'll do a seminar at our school.
B. Prolonged ground fighting still isn't a good option in true self-defense.

That doesn't count. ;)

[RenDaHai]

Speaking as someone who HAS done grappling comps. Submissions are breaks you simply tap (hopefully) before the snap, otherwise you are off to see the attending medics, and most comps have a few breaks in them, in training you apply slow even pressure and give your partner time to tap, in comp you apply it as fast and as hard as you can the main reason you don’t see as many breaks in comps is people are good at defending and good at tapping

Fighting from the ground might not be missing, but ground fighting, in the sense of dealing with an opponent down on the ground with you trying to hit you or hurt you isn’t nearly as developed as it is in grappling, and I wager fighting from the ground against a standing opponent is also not as developed as it is in MMA, standing up under constant pressure from stomps leg and head kicks etc or sweeping a standing striking opponent is an art form MMA is very good at, im not sure I have seen similar skills a the same level in TCMA

The question really shouldn’t be was it or wasn’t it included in the past, but why don’t TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century

Yeah, I'm sure you apply it fast and hard, but you surely don't use full on joint smashing strikes which you might if your intent was to break it from the get go. You really don't think you would use techniques a little differently if you were going for breaks instead of holds? a little?

Your right here, almost certainly all aspects of ground fighting are going to be at their best in MMA as it is usually a small part of Kung fu styles but a major part of MMA. And it is trained in full contact. ALthough sweeping a standing opponent is something Detang quan is pretty good at, but without video proof, who's gonna believe.

I think certain aspects could be included, but the problem is it requires rather a lot of specialised training, and that would occupy a lot of class time. Most Kung Fu styles are pretty big as it is. If I ran a club that did all day everyday training then I would definately include a lot of grappling. But if people are just turning up once a week, then the grappling training would occupy more time than its worth. (to a kung fu guy)

[Ray Pina]

Fighting on the ground is a sport:confused:

Why would someone fight on the ground:confused:

As much as you want to, sometimes you don't get to choose the battle ground. Sometimes you get taken down. Sometimes you slip. Sometimes you get clinched and dragged down..... life deals out banana peels and water spills. Ever notice how many "Watch your step" signs you encounter in public?


Once down, you're fighting for you survival no different than if on your feet. You need control of the position. You need control of the person.... you find yourself down with an insecure person (say a TCMA with no ground game) they may reach for a weapon. Stand up grappling helps with this also.

Forget the past. Forget what books or older sifus said. Use your brain.... you know it's important to have skill in all ranges. To disregard a ground game is irresponsible, lazy, egotistical, etc., etc. There's no excuses. If you don't know, go humble yourself and learn it. You'll have a blast, it's fun to learn something and incorporate it right away.

[RenDaHai]

Not a problem. I got it on a Chinese server as well:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/58019952-2099658804.html

Also, you should pm me your email and I will send you a tool you can use to watch youtube with. You don't even have to install it. You can just stick it on a thumb drive and use it even at internet bars.

Thanks for that,

Yeah that move would be part of TieShenKao.

THats sounds cool I'll do that, cheers!

[Frost]

To be honest joint smashing strikes aren’t the way grapplers do it, you isolate and control the joint, and then you apply pressure, so what changes is how fast you apply it not how you do the technique (to be honest in comps I applied it faster but with control, I never wanted to injury my opponent (well except one person) but then I was never the best competitor )

Ill believe sweeping a standing opponent is something Detang is good at it would make sense, the question should be is it enough to deal with the kind of opponent you face these days (who will likely have some grappling ability,)

As for the rest of you post I agree entirely, its all about time effort and perceived training priority, I never bash people for not doing grappling, if you are a stand up fighter and only have a few days a week to train grappling should be a small part of your training, I think a few weeks/months giving priority to basic positions and escapes would be useful, and then a little maintenance work every now and then to kep sharp would be useful

If you train kung fu for self defence I suspect your priorities might change depending on the opponents you might face, if you are more likely to face grappling opponents than say one wielding a sword maybe its time to drop certain aspects of training and evolve (as these arts did before) if you are training to maintain a style then that’s a personal choice

[ShaolinDan]

Ray,
To me it's not a question of needing to know what to do on the ground, it's a question of what your goal is when you're on the ground--do you try to wrap your legs around your opponent, or do you try to get out from underneath and get your feet back?
Both approaches can work...sometimes.
In my limited experience, ground fighting changes an awful lot depending on whether or not striking is allowed. Changes even more if it's true no rules. Personally, I have no real interest in ground fighting without striking...just not my thing.

And as far as stand-up grappling goes, TCMA has that covered.

[Eric Olson]

I'm fairly satisfied with the reasons given. And I think we can all agree that staying on the ground for a long period of time in a real combat situation is a bad idea. BTW, these situations do occur. Someone was killed right in front of a grocery store where I grew up when a gang of teenage kids stomped his head in. This wasn't a bad neighborhood either, it was as suburban as it gets.

So then I guess the question is, how much ground-grappling is enough? If this isn't your primary thing, what are the basics for self-defense? Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it's game over but we don't all want to become BJJ masters for that 'one day' when we encounter the grappling specialist.

EO

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would like to add that personally I feel striking in the clinch to be one of if not the most important aspect to grappling training. Working control through under/ over hooks and by plumming head and training striking while controlling your opponent is an essential part of self defense. Inside boxing, elbows, knees, sweeps, donkey and stomp kicks, and low roundhouse kicks with hip seperation are all very effective and are part of the grappling spectrum. Training pummeling is also very important to gain body locks and dominant positioning.

Also, the concepts of stance training, rooting, and sprawling keep you upright when a grappler is trying to take you down, very important these are trained.

[RenDaHai]

I think a few weeks/months giving priority to basic positions and escapes would be useful, and then a little maintenance work every now and then to kep sharp would be useful


Thats certainly essential, and I agree at least this much should probably be incorperated in some way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

First off, ground fighting is NOT ground grappling, which is what the topic is about.
The GnP is present in TCMA, as are tricks to get off the floor, but the comprehensive curriculum of ground GRAPPLING is NOT and it is because of cultural reasons.
TCMA have just enough to "defend" while on the ground and just enough to get off the ground or attack someone on the ground.

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.

[Hardwork108]

First off, ground fighting is NOT ground grappling, which is what the topic is about.
The GnP is present in TCMA, as are tricks to get off the floor, but the comprehensive curriculum of ground GRAPPLING is NOT and it is because of cultural reasons.
TCMA have just enough to "defend" while on the ground and just enough to get off the ground or attack someone on the ground.

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.

Sorry to disagree, but Chin-na/Kumna techniques can be applied on the ground. Many of these techniques can be considered grappling. I do agree that they are not "extensive", but personally speaking, I have not seen all that there is in the TCMAs and I doubt that anyone in this forum has, so I am not even sure about that.

I guess as China keeps opening up, we will see more TCMA styles showing up, and then who knows......

[omarthefish]

Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it's game over ...
Oh, I dunno...you could go the escrima route.

Not even joking. I had an epiphany a while back thinking about this issue. The lines we draw on escalation are arbitrary. Personally, I don't think I could ever go the gun route and lets not even talk knives. I was at a rough spot a couple years back and actually got into a street fight that kind of scared me. There was a couple minutes scuffle with a guy bigger than me but not that skilled really. Still though, I had NO desire to fight him. Just wanted to get away. When I had a chance I picked up one of my rattan sticks I keep around for training. Should have seen that dude change his attitude.

Thinking about it later I realized, meh, I'm not afraid of the BJJ expert if I have one of my sticks handy. 6 months of BJJ may trump several years of kickboxing but 6 months of weapons fighting can trump several years of BJJ.

If you are really worried about self defense then you only need some very basic ground skills. Tim Cartmell has a great short term course called "Attack Proof" geared at exactly that minimum necessity. Then I'd say go the RSBD route. Some kind of mix of improvised weapons training combined with lots of scenario and psychological training. A little NLP or some Geof Thompson "fence" type stuff maybe. Really no need for the high level subtle skills that you get from years of in depth specialization. BJJ can certainly be a part of that but it's a vastly smaller part of self defense when compared to the role it can play in ritual combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry to disagree, but Chin-na/Kumna techniques can be applied on the ground. Many of these techniques can be considered grappling. I do agree that they are not "extensive", but personally speaking, I have not seen all that there is in the TCMAs and I doubt that anyone in this forum has, so I am not even sure about that.

I guess as China keeps opening up, we will see more TCMA styles showing up, and then who knows......

I agree that chin-na CAN be applied on the ground, that is a given.
That is NOT the same thing as it BEING applied on the ground or TRAINED there.
Which is more typically was NOT.

[omarthefish]

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.

But I bet those arts looked a lot different from todays groundwork, eh? Heck, just think about all that **** kneeling work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh, I dunno...you could go the escrima route.

Not even joking. I had an epiphany a while back thinking about this issue. The lines we draw on escalation are arbitrary. Personally, I don't think I could ever go the gun route and lets not even talk knives. I was at a rough spot a couple years back and actually got into a street fight that kind of scared me. There was a couple minutes scuffle with a guy bigger than me but not that skilled really. Still though, I had NO desire to fight him. Just wanted to get away. When I had a chance I picked up one of my rattan sticks I keep around for training. Should have seen that dude change his attitude.

Thinking about it later I realized, meh, I'm not afraid of the BJJ expert if I have one of my sticks handy. 6 months of BJJ may trump several years of kickboxing but 6 months of weapons fighting can trump several years of BJJ.

If you are really worried about self defense then you only need some very basic ground skills. Tim Cartmell has a great short term course called "Attack Proof" geared at exactly that minimum necessity. Then I'd say go the RSBD route. Some kind of mix of improvised weapons training combined with lots of scenario and psychological training. A little NLP or some Geof Thompson "fence" type stuff maybe. Really no need for the high level subtle skills that you get from years of in depth specialization. BJJ can certainly be a part of that but it's a vastly smaller part of self defense when compared to the role it can play in ritual combat.

Allow me to disagree based on what I have seen in person AND on video.
The Dog brothers are without a doubt the top full contact stick fighters around.
In their gatherings you can see how even in full contact stick work, grappling can neautralize striking ( with sticks).
In one of their gatherings their was a big black guy with a wrestling an football back ground that demolished a few stick fighters by simply closing the gap, taking them down VERY HARD and GnP them into submission.
Getting hit by a stick hurts, A LOT, I know, BUT I also know that we can "take it" and get in and that in close, without grappling experience, most stick fighters are in trouble.
Knives are another matter of course.
The reason that the DB added BJJ and ground grappling was because experience taught them then even in a stick fight, it is a factor to deal with.

[Dragonzbane76]

First off, ground fighting is NOT ground grappling, which is what the topic is
about.

There is a difference. Differing levels of grappling as a whole. Touch/grab/clinch/takedown/ground/domain/position/choke,submission. I could add some more in there but i hate typing on a phone.

Many styles have specialization, tcma is no different. Ground fighting is not a defining characteristic of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But I bet those arts looked a lot different from todays groundwork, eh? Heck, just think about all that **** kneeling work.

Its a common misconception that grappling in those days was like what we see now in Aiki-jutsu and some other arts.
Seiza was NOT used as it was a "dead stance", the primary "sitting posture" was a crouch/half-kneeling position know as "iai-gosh".
But you are correct, they did look very different but the core principle of "postion before submission" and "control before application" was paramoutn, even more so when dealing with short and concealed weapons.

[Hardwork108]

I agree that chin-na CAN be applied on the ground, that is a given.
That is NOT the same thing as it BEING applied on the ground or TRAINED there.
Which is more typically was NOT.
You are right. Typically it is not, but typically many kung fu schools don't even train the stand up, the way they are supposed to, but it is trained in my WC lineage. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are right. Typically it is not, but typically many kung fu schools don't even train the stand up, the way they are supposed to, but it is trained in my WC lineage. :)

I am not gonna debate that with you because, quite honestly, I don't know anything about your lineage and I have heard conflicting reports BUT I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
However, since you KEEP bring it up, can you please decribe a typical counter to an attempted ground grappling manuver in your system?
EX:
How woudl your system counter an attempt at:
Arm bar
Triangle choke
"kimura" arm lock?

[TenTigers]

Contrary to popular (uninformed) belief, practicing in seiza serves a very important function, which is not negated by modern times/methods.
It isolates the skill so that you are not using any other movement, footwork etc., to facilitate the technique.
Too many "modern thinkers," seeing this method as outdated, referring to them as simply, "Classical," or "Dojo technique," have once again thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

[omarthefish]

Allow me to disagree based on what I have seen in person AND on video...
Well, even you said yourself, knives are a different story. I only went with sticks because I don't think I have it in myself to stab someone just to avoid a beating. If I felt there was real danger to my wife or sister or something like that, different story. As far as just some punk with a BJJ purple belt who feels the need to prove he can kick my ass...I expect I would take the ass kicking before I put a knife in someone.

Point is, grappling is an issue but it's not the ultimate issue by a long shot. We live in an incredibly safe world these days (contrary to popular opinion) and virtually nobody in the US or Canada is in any real danger of being arm barred unless they go looking for it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Contrary to popular (uninformed) belief, practicing in seiza serves a very important function, which is not negated by modern times/methods.
It isolates the skill so that you are not using any other movement, footwork etc., to facilitate the technique.
Too many "modern thinkers," seeing this method as outdated, referring to them as simply, "Classical," or "Dojo technique," have once again thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Sure, but classical arts did NOT practice in seiza that much, especially the sword arts ( outside of the occasional short sword work).
They did as much seiza work as modern MA do "chair work".
Well...perhaps more so since very few modern MA do ANY chair work at all.

[Golden Arms]

So then I guess the question is, how much ground-grappling is enough? If this isn't your primary thing, what are the basics for self-defense? Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it's game over but we don't all want to become BJJ masters for that 'one day' when we encounter the grappling specialist.

EO

If you are serious, make a commitment to consistently carry a blade. Practice regularly presenting it from your chosen carry spot and when in different positions. Then make a personal deal with yourself to decide when you would feel it is a viable option to use the weapon so that you don't have to make that decision as things unfold.

I have done some grappling and also agree with the statement about understanding the clinch range as being a vital component. A blade is still a very powerful deterrent in the right hands however.

[wenshu]

Brings me to another question. So what if extant Chinese gong fu doesn't have ground submissions? Why do people desperately insist on believing that it does?

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fetishes.png

[Lucas]

Many people who have only ever trained cma/tcma will take a stance and debate that cma does have good ground grappling, generally in the form of saying you can apply chin na on the ground, regardless of what one says it is not exactly the same, it will take a lot of work and time to make that transition viable to the same degree that other arts have already achieved, it can be done, but you are somewhat re-inventing the wheel so to speak, standing and ground grappling have commonalities but are not the same thing. Even if you do train the ground on a regular basis in your cma school, chances are it is not on par with systems that have not only a greater emphasis, but a long tradition and history of such an emphasis. unless of course you have some secret cross training and infusion going on. Genrally speaking, even if you transition chin na to the ground, you still need a frame of reference to work from, ie: other competent grapplers to test your skills with. not non grapplers or others trying to develop grappling

It is human nature to defend what we are and what we spend our time doing/becoming, the problem is people taking this stance without having gone and trained in these other systems to have a solid frame of reference to debate from. the evidence is in the people who have done just this. MANY of us have been die hard traditionalists and 'defenders' of the cma way, and then we did the homework. we went out and tasted the flavor for ourselves, and THEN made a truly informed and educated decision.

you can argue all you want that cma is on par with arts like jiujitsu or judo, but if you have not trained in those arts, how can you truly know, and further more how can one be so presumtious as to speak from the standpoint of knowledge when you dont have it?

at that point your portion of the debate is merely speculation and assumption. knowledge will always trump assumption. every single time.

[Eric Olson]

The people saying TCMA has ground-grappling seem kind of clueless to me. Even it does, it's not the emphasis by any means and certainly not in all styles. ChiNa can work if you have position but that assumes position.

But back to my question, let's take someone like me for example. My background is primarily in TCMA and the emphasis is on striking. I studied CLF for ten years, Chen Taiji for about the equivalent and have a smattering of training in Boxing, Hung Gar, Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I know how to throw a punch and hold my ground on my feet.

What is the bare bones that I need to learn to adequately defend myself on against a ground-grappling brute? Not someone that is a BJJ black belt, but maybe a big guy that wrestled in highschool (there's a lot more of those out there after all and they probably drink more heavily.)

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

The people saying TCMA has ground-grappling seem kind of clueless to me. Even it does, it's not the emphasis by any means and certainly not in all styles. ChiNa can work if you have position but that assumes position.

But back to my question, let's take someone like me for example. My background is primarily in TCMA and the emphasis is on striking. I studied CLF for ten years, Chen Taiji for about the equivalent and have a smattering of training in Boxing, Hung Gar, Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I know how to throw a punch and hold my ground on my feet.

What is the bare bones that I need to learn to adequately defend myself on against a ground-grappling brute? Not someone that is a BJJ black belt, but maybe a big guy that wrestled in highschool (there's a lot more of those out there after all.)

EO

Honestly?
A year of MMA or even a year in BJJ is enough given the experience you listed.
For some it may take even less but a god year in a good gym with solid teachers and partners will give you the skill set you need to understand how to counter the most common ground grappling scenarios.

[Dragonzbane76]

A year of MMA or even a year in BJJ is enough given the experience you listed.
For some it may take even less but a god year in a good gym with solid teachers and partners will give you the skill set you need to understand how to counter the most common ground grappling scenarios.

agree with the above. Lucas pointed out some good stuff as well.

My advise is to get outside the box. go out get humbled by someone with a good deal of experience in grappling. Learn the clinch so you are able to negate the takedown. work towards your strength (stand up I presume) The way to defeat something is to learn what it is.

[David Jamieson]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.

[Hardwork108]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.
If you take the Internal approach then you will improve for longer, as you get older, or at least not deteriorate so much. Of course, I am not talking the world of intense sports fighting, where one's fighting life span can sometimes be cut short with needless and silly injuries.

[wenshu]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.

**** all that noise jack. I'll just practice zhan zhuang and read The Secret.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cPCW3hf_Ct4/TSbB6gCownI/AAAAAAAAAKg/rKZKfWkGA8Q/s1600/the_secret_law.jpg

[Ray Pina]

The smarter ones are laughing less now, since people like Sifu Mike Patterson, confirmed the existance of ground fighting in TCMAs and gave validity to Internal practices

Confirming with type-written words is different than proving in open competition that draws BJJ, Judo, wrestling.

[Ray Pina]

One more vote in there for the armed combat connection.

Wrestling, Sport BJJ etc. it's all ritualized combat. "Real" combat is done with weapons. Always has been.


Grappling is extremely important for armed conflict... otherwise you get your weapon taken away.

Soldiers in war find themselves in hand-to-hand range with and sometimes without a working weapon.

This falling back on weaponry as an excuse is inexcusable. Even in weaponry, how many Kendo champions has TCMA produced? There are forums for live weapons play as well.

[David Jamieson]

Grappling is extremely important for armed conflict... otherwise you get your weapon taken away.

Soldiers in war find themselves in hand-to-hand range with and sometimes without a working weapon.

This falling back on weaponry as an excuse is inexcusable. Even in weaponry, how many Kendo champions has TCMA produced? There are forums for live weapons play as well.

I think he means guns. I guess he could mean swords, but you'd have to be pretty long in the tooth to think that swords were combat usable anymore than pre WW1. they were pretty much for dress then.

I do agree, weapon retention is important, but modern combat doesn't include H2H and will do so less and less and less as time carries on.

all violent conflict H2H stuff will be for sport eventually. It is near entirely useless on a modern battlefield these days.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,
To me it's not a question of needing to know what to do on the ground, it's a question of what your goal is when you're on the ground--do you try to wrap your legs around your opponent, or do you try to get out from underneath and get your feet back?
Both approaches can work...sometimes.
There is a time for both. If you just escaped being mounted or side control, regaining guard is a victory. Victories are won in small steps.

If you can get right back up from a scramble fine..... sometimes you can't. You need, at the least, to know how to technically escape every position without striking. If you can't escape from the bottom, you're not going to do it when the other guy can hit you too.... he was good enough to get you in the bad position.




Personally, I have no real interest in ground fighting without striking...just not my thing.


If you are inferior in straight grappling, it's because you don't understand the position, how to control it, how to advance it and how to escape it.... allowing striking will not help you then other than the lucky punch, which happens. But you can take the beating of a lifetime taking that gamble. Which, personally, is why I think we see no straight TCMAer in MMA..... no one is willing to put their arse on the line. Just talk and type.

[Hardwork108]

Confirming with type-written words is different than proving in open competition that draws BJJ, Judo, wrestling.
One of the issues discussed here was wether the TCMAs addressed the ground scenario. The point is that they do.

The discussion about their effectiveness in sports competitions is another matter and can probably discussed until the cows come home. However, the fact remains that some TCMAs train for the ground scenario.

I would guess that the more hardcore a given school trains this range, the more effective it will be in a real combat scenario, just like the stand up approach. :)

[David Jamieson]

I think it's more honest to say that "very few" as opposed to "some".
I've been exposed to and trained extensively in a few TCMA with a real particular bent towards one.

Ground fighting is not emphasized or trained with any regularity.
these were hard core old school kung fu schools to. Not strip mall dojoettes with nascar gi wearing yahoos (sorry nascar gi wearing yahoos).

If things went to the ground, we were trained to get up and out of there.
We were trained to try and avoid the take down, but that was very superficial in it's approach each and every time in mainland, taiwan, or the 5 provinces kung fu styles.(south china up to shanghai styles).

wrestling was something i learned through middle and high school, so I never gave it much thought in context to Kung Fu.

Bottom line is that TCMA doesn't deal extensively in grappling, wrestling or ground fighting. It simply doesn't. yet. :p

[Hardwork108]

I think it's more honest to say that "very few" as opposed to "some".
I've been exposed to and trained extensively in a few TCMA with a real particular bent towards one.

Ground fighting is not emphasized or trained with any regularity.
these were hard core old school kung fu schools to. Not strip mall dojoettes with nascar gi wearing yahoos (sorry nascar gi wearing yahoos).

If things went to the ground, we were trained to get up and out of there.
We were trained to try and avoid the take down, but that was very superficial in it's approach each and every time in mainland, taiwan, or the 5 provinces kung fu styles.(south china up to shanghai styles).

wrestling was something i learned through middle and high school, so I never gave it much thought in context to Kung Fu.

Bottom line is that TCMA doesn't deal extensively in grappling, wrestling or ground fighting. It simply doesn't. yet. :p

That is your experience and it has to be respected. I hazard a guess that sifu Mike Patterson may disagree with you on the superficiality of the TCMA ground training.

As for the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, sifu would go on the ground and the mindset would be to deal with the opponent on the ground.

I am just saying that this indicates that there is a lot TCMA out there that you (I and others) have not seen. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

but modern combat doesn't include H2H and will do so less and less and less as time carries on.


brings up an interesting thought I had the other day. You might be right on this or you might be wrong.

My thoughts,

wouldn't technology drive that. Dependent upon which area is exceeded further. Say, for example, if the technology was provided that pretty much negated the ranged weapon (guns). some kind of armor or sorts that is light flexible and able to cover the body. They have some of the technology today for this but its way expensive. But think down the road if it's developed and could be used by the normal person. would that bring things back to a hand to hand level? just a thought.

[David Jamieson]

That is your experience and it has to be respected. I hazard a guess that sifu Mike Patterson may disagree with you on the superficiality of the TCMA ground training.

As for the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, sifu would go on the ground and the mindset would be to deal with the opponent on the ground.

I am just saying that this indicates that there is a lot TCMA out there that you (and I) have not seen. ;)

I agree there is plenty out there that I have not seen or experienced. How could it be any different, but it needs to be understood that what Mike Patterson has written about and has had his adventures in is integral to his experience and his groups experience. Which happened far out of context to all of us and cannot be held as the standard for many of us on that fact.

Where I am now, there is a not bad SC school and NO Kung Fu that teaches grappling outside of a cross training context where the sifu has also trained in wrestling or JJ or BJJ etc and has integrated it to his system, usually in an mma or separate class fashion depending on how he's structured his school.

It really isn't widely available and it's not about how it was done by someone else far away in context, it's about how on average, it is not common. It really isn't common to be hitting the mats and wrestling or grappling as part fo your kung fu training.

In your time with Wing Chun, I guarantee you that you didn't do anything of the sort. The same is true for Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Mantis, North Shaolin, all the big Pais etc etc.

there is nothing wrong with it being missing! I can tell you for sure that wrestlers train zero striking or kicking and are no where near as adept at either of those as say a 1 year kung fu student would be. How could they? They don't train it.

BJJ can't lay claim to being a great striking art, It's not, it's a submission art.
There is no shame in Kung Fu doing what it does and BJJ doing what it does. It is really self defeating to shout into the wind with all your anger and might in the hopes of achieving something...anything. :)

[wenshu]

wouldn't technology drive that. Dependent upon which area is exceeded further. Say, for example, if the technology was provided that pretty much negated the ranged weapon (guns). some kind of armor or sorts that is light flexible and able to cover the body. They have some of the technology today for this but its way expensive. But think down the road if it's developed and could be used by the normal person. would that bring things back to a hand to hand level? just a thought.

Advances in armor would simply lead to advances in the projectiles needed to penetrate it.

[David Jamieson]

Advances in armor would simply lead to advances in the projectiles needed to penetrate it.

would? You mean has, did and still is. :p

[wenshu]

would? You mean has, did and still is. :p

Your momma joke incoming in 3,2,1 . . .

[Dragonzbane76]

Advances in armor would simply lead to advances in the projectiles needed to penetrate it.

you might be right. But history has had shaded moments in concern with such. Advancements can lead to more advancements in differing areas, but sometimes something comes along that changes everything for a moment in time. A new idea or thought that negates or makes something else obsolete. (good example was the gun itself) Armor was no longer needed. but it's a tug back and forth i've noted in history. The swing of human ideas that brings something to the for front and then back out again.

Not disagreeing with either of you, but there is points in history where the tables have turned it could happen for H2H with new ideas. But then again the advances would be a scramble for projectile weapons to defeat this new thing. But for a small window maybe there would be a shift back to H2H fighting again or maybe not who knows just speculation.

[Hardwork108]

I agree there is plenty out there that I have not seen or experienced. How could it be any different, but it needs to be understood that what Mike Patterson has written about and has had his adventures in is integral to his experience and his groups experience. Which happened far out of context to all of us and cannot be held as the standard for many of us on that fact.

Where I am now, there is a not bad SC school and NO Kung Fu that teaches grappling outside of a cross training context where the sifu has also trained in wrestling or JJ or BJJ etc and has integrated it to his system, usually in an mma or separate class fashion depending on how he's structured his school.

It really isn't widely available and it's not about how it was done by someone else far away in context, it's about how on average, it is not common. It really isn't common to be hitting the mats and wrestling or grappling as part fo your kung fu training.

In your time with Wing Chun, I guarantee you that you didn't do anything of the sort. The same is true for Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Mantis, North Shaolin, all the big Pais etc etc.

there is nothing wrong with it being missing! I can tell you for sure that wrestlers train zero striking or kicking and are no where near as adept at either of those as say a 1 year kung fu student would be. How could they? They don't train it.

BJJ can't lay claim to being a great striking art, It's not, it's a submission art.
There is no shame in Kung Fu doing what it does and BJJ doing what it does. It is really self defeating to shout into the wind with all your anger and might in the hopes of achieving something...anything. :)

I know what you are saying, but that does not change the fact that there are kung fu styles that deal with the ground a lot more than BJJ does with striking. Sifu Patterson not only referred to what he was training, but he also referred to other schools during his time in Taiwan, who trained the ground scenario.

As for my lineage of Wing Chun. The ground fighting training is still in the syllabus and I have seen the students who are more advanced than me training it with sifu. Even though I have trained in non-Wing Chun in the past few years, my WC training has been limited to preserving my skills and training with sifu on my regular visits to Rio, so I have not gotten to ground fighting stage. However again, from what I have seen, the object is not necessarily to get up as soon as possible, so the combat stays on the ground for a relatively long time.

In a couple of years, I should be living in Brasil again, and I will then tell you more about the ground aspect of this particular lineage of WC.

[lance]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu this never occurred to anyone? Seriously?

EO

Eric , kung fu does have ground grappling , some people say it does 'nt , but I tend to disagree with them . Besides , this forum was design for kung fu discussion and anything relating to kung fu in general . If people really don ' t like kung fu at all then get off this forum . You know what they say if you can ' t talk nice about anything then shut up . Eric , I ' m saying this to people who criticize kung fu in general , so don ' t get offended , I ' m really saying these things to people who write negative things on kung fu , not you so I hope you understand .

Anyway , Eric you ever heard of chin na the chinese art of joint locking or breaking ? There is ground fighting in chin na , you just need to look for the moves . The thing about kung fu is it ' s all consists of styles and within the styles contain forms , within the forms is where the secret is the useages or applications . In WC their grappling techniques lies in the bil jee form . What you need to do is be able to seperate the applications from the forms , then you find your answers . That ' s the thing about kung fu it ' s all in the forms . So if you ' re learning from a sifu now , then you best bet is to torture him with questions . If you don ' t ask him you ' re not going to know . And you ' re paying the sifu to teach you right ? Unless , your fellow classmates knows something that you
don ' t know . So do your own research Eric , but kung fu does have their own ground grappling techniques . Go to Wle.com they have materials on ground fighting . Try you tube look under kung fu grappling or shuai chiao ( chinses art of throwing ) .

[Dragonzbane76]

So your answer to tcma not having grappling is forms? Really? So a person whom wants to learn some ground game in tcma has to break down a form and look for the "hidden" moves? Forget live training with another person, (which is pretty much the only way to learn grappling), you have to solve a riddle from a form first.

Gee no wonder tcma grappling sucks.

Also chin na is not grappling in the sense you are presenting it in.

[Eric Olson]

Er, TCMA has standup-grappling but not really ground grappling. ChiNa can be applied from any position, but how can you apply it if you are on the ground in a submission hold or choke hold struggling for your last breath? It makes no sense.

Even if your goal is to get up and off your feet you still need to have position to be able to do that.

I think we really need to move away from the discussion about whether or not TCMA has ground-grappling. It doesn't (at least the mainstream styles). I think a more productive discussion is for TCMAers to ask "what do I need to know?" or "how can incorporate some of this into my style?" so I don't get pwned.

EO

[Dragonzbane76]

For once i agree with your statement eric. :)

[Eric Olson]

For once i agree with your statement eric. :)

I've actually been thinking about taking some BJJ classes for a while, it's on my list, and there is a Renzo school right around the corner. The only problem is I don't have the funds at the moment and a baby on the way, so it might be a few years before it actually happens. But I would like to learn some of the basics.

EO

[Frost]

Is their judo near you, normally judo is a lot cheaper and good clubs still cover the basics , their ground work may not be as advanced as BJJ but it would suit your purposes

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've actually been thinking about taking some BJJ classes for a while, it's on my list, and there is a Renzo school right around the corner. The only problem is I don't have the funds at the moment and a baby on the way, so it might be a few years before it actually happens. But I would like to learn some of the basics.

EO

I took them, even after having a BB in Judo, it is an eye opening experience and will do nothing but improve your overall skills and it will allow you to understand and deal with grapplers in a way far beyond anything else.
You do NOT need to become a grappler of course.

[brothernumber9]

Some say there are "some" kung fu styles that incorporate or address grappling. What the names of these styles? I'm quite sure there are very few.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Is their judo near you, normally judo is a lot cheaper and good clubs still cover the basics , their ground work may not be as advanced as BJJ but it would suit your purposes

Around here there are high schools coaches who will also let you practice and wrestle with their high school wrestling teams. This is another cheap way to get grappling experience if you can find a coach willing to do this.

[maxattck]

Eric, just do it. If you can manage it financially. If only to feel bjj first hand. That's what I did, and found the counters I learned in tcma would not work and where laughable against live training. I ended up quiting tcma and going to bjj, and recently kyokushin for striking. This was after roughly 5 to 6 years of tcma

[Howard]

Some say there are "some" kung fu styles that incorporate or address grappling. What the names of these styles? I'm quite sure there are very few.

Do you mean ground-grappling or grappling in general ?

[Lucas]

Has anyone ever seen or participated in a submission grappling tourney who has only CMA training? The answer that question can give a good idea as to how well CMA can hold its own against grappling based systems. I'm willing to wager the positive responses will be few.

Oh and I should add done well, getting owned doesn't count

[Howard]

Has anyone ever seen or participated in a submission grappling tourney who has only CMA training? The answer that question can give a good idea as to how well CMA can hold its own against grappling based systems. I'm willing to wager the positive responses will be few.

Oh and I should add done well, getting owned doesn't count

Have you been surrounded by five guys that smashed you're head in while lying on the ground ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you been surrounded by five guys that smashed you're head in while lying on the ground ?

And TCMA has an answer to that scenario that OTHER MA don't?
Namely get your ass out of there !
Because that is the first thing advocated in ANY Sport combat gym in regards to multiple attackers.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you have 5 guys around u i dont care what u do as far as style your probably going to get your head kicked in no mattet what. The best option in that situation is run or find a weapon.

[ginosifu]

I think a lot of modern day people that are posting here don't realize that when CMA was evolving, ground and pound was not an option. Whether it was because of cultural ways or the danger of ground work back then, the addition of weapons, or the lack of ground grappling teachers... we may never know exactly.

The factor now is that Ground Work is mainly for Martial Sport. YES, ground fighting probably will happen in today's street fight however, looking at any street brawl, NONE last for 10-15 minutes and NONE are done in a cage on a soft floor. Real fighting does or may go to the ground but they tend to end very quickly.

The street fight I was in... a guy sucker punched me and punched back.... we grappled and I slammed on the ground and started pounding on the back of his head. Within 60 seconds it was all done and someone started breaking us up. This is reality.

If anyone doing CMA and wants add Grappling to their game, then just stick with CMA (if you have any in your area). and learn Shuai Chiao or San Shou and or Chin Na. This should be enough for street self defense.

If you want to do Martial sport then any ground grappling school (BJJ, MMA, Judo, SC etc etc) whatever floats your boat.

ginosifu

[Howard]

And TCMA has an answer to that scenario that OTHER MA don't?
Namely get your ass out of there !
Because that is the first thing advocated in ANY Sport combat gym in regards to multiple attackers.

Potentially. But now can understand the approach in sport combat. Thanks kindly.

[Howard]

I think a lot of modern day people that are posting here don't realize that when CMA was evolving, ground and pound was not an option.

Ground and Pound was known as "Wusong Dahu" - may be the name did not match modern criteria. But unfortunately a lot of popular TCMA nowadays has missed their essence and much lost....

[Lucas]

Have you been surrounded by five guys that smashed you're head in while lying on the ground ?

actually yes i have.

[Howard]

If you have 5 guys around u i dont care what u do as far as style your probably going to get your head kicked in no mattet what. The best option in that situation is run or find a weapon.

Ah...weapons training might help

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you have 5 guys around u i dont care what u do as far as style your probably going to get your head kicked in no mattet what. The best option in that situation is run or find a weapon.

Anecdotal, so take it for what its worth:
When I was bouncing one of our guys got into an altercation and itchappened to be with a group.
All crap broke lose outside and it was a bot of a scrap to say the least.
At one point one of our guys was down with 2 or 3 guys kicking at him, when we got there and got those guys off of him he was "fine" ( as fine as one can be, juts a bit bloodied), how?
He used the guy on TOP to shield him from the guys kicking him.

[Dragonzbane76]

Yeah colt 45 training. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Reading some of the comments here, i'm not too sure there's more than a few here who've actually been jumped by more than one person. Personally, IDC if you know MMA with five guys pounding and kicking you there's only two things you can do. one, cover up and wait for the beating to stop or grab one of them and hold on for dear life and try to cause as much damage to the one you got a hold of, The others are RAPID FIRING punches and kicks so fast you can't do anything about it.

Sometimes when surrounded by more than one person you have to just fight your ass off and when the first opportunity arises, then take off. My sifu used to tell me "run away live to fight another day"....... Running away doesn't mean you are a chicken $hit. it means you can recognize the odds are not in your favor.

****, this MMA vs Kung Fu thing is getting sooooooooo boring.

[RWilson]

Eric, just do it. If you can manage it financially. If only to feel bjj first hand. That's what I did, and found the counters I learned in tcma would not work and where laughable against live training. I ended up quiting tcma and going to bjj, and recently kyokushin for striking. This was after roughly 5 to 6 years of tcma

The tcma counters do work but only if you have studied some form of wrestling.

Horse stance can stop a takedown if angled correctly against his force and if you can transition quickly. Trained in the dead format we have all seen will lead to you being taken down. Just standing there in horse stance and praying would be bad.

[hskwarrior]

Just standing there in horse stance and praying would be bad.

No doubt bout that. But who would really think "JUST" their horse stance would be all they needed? having a strong stance, meaning you know how to root, is good when someone is rushing you or trying to force you back. You use the horse stance in conjunction with your hands. A good strong stance is perfect for doing power punches. look at rampage jackson....he roots when he punches and has power in his punch, more so than someone who doesn't know how to root.

still, the person who thinks all he needs is a good horse stance needs a major wake up call.

[Lucas]

why not just sprawl....? its definately been shown to be quite a successfull defense against many shots...

[Lucas]

have you guys read the new e-zine article? extremely relevant to this discussion topic.....read it suckas

http://kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1006

[hskwarrior]

why not just sprawl....? its definately been shown to be quite a successfull defense against many shots...

when :confused::confused::confused:

[Lucas]

when :confused::confused::confused:

kinda responding to wilsons post a bit...oops...im talking instead of a lot of times trying to work it with a horse stance, idc how good your horse stance is, you get an all american going for a single or double, a horse stance will just be handing it to him often times. it makes it easy to hook and lift. a fast sprawl can take away his options.

[Lucas]

what are the chances of having a solid state level wrestler trying to take you down in real life altercation? i'd say slim. do you NEED a solid base of ground grappling for every day life? no, i dont think so.

i think cma is as good of a choice for self defense as any other system out there, and better than some, imo. for instance i'd prefer most any style of cma over most styles of aikido. but maybe thats just me.

i personally decided to cross train in judo because of the popularity of mma. most people now who dont have training will do what they see on tv and in sports arenas. what ever is popular. the decision to adapt my boxing to meet my regional and cultural needs is actually a shaolin philosophy that i agree with, and practice.

[Ray Pina]

Honestly?
A year of MMA or even a year in BJJ is enough given the experience you listed.
For some it may take even less but a god year in a good gym with solid teachers and partners will give you the skill set you need to understand how to counter the most common ground grappling scenarios.

I think that's an over estimation of people's ability to pick up new skills.... framing, shrimping, replacing the guard.... that's just to survive. That alone, to really own escapes, can take that long.

And again, that's just to understand how to escape and replace guard.

Going from guard to Kimura. To Omaplata. Getting a good arm bar. A good triangle... that takes at least 3 years. Developing these tools into one's game, that's at purple belt level and early brown belt level. There's a difference between knowing a movement and having the subtleties, sensitivities, explosiveness.... the knowledge of recognizing positions before being in them.

[Ray Pina]

I've actually been thinking about taking some BJJ classes for a while, it's on my list, and there is a Renzo school right around the corner. The only problem is I don't have the funds at the moment and a baby on the way, so it might be a few years before it actually happens. But I would like to learn some of the basics.

EO


Go talk to them. I've seen the Gracie's work around for someone who wants to train... especially in this economy. Maybe you can offer to sweep the mats before and after class.

It is so worth it. And you'll probably be hooked after the first class and you'll have an entirely new perspective in evaluating the effectiveness of your training time.

[Frost]

Reading some of the comments here, i'm not too sure there's more than a few here who've actually been jumped by more than one person. Personally, IDC if you know MMA with five guys pounding and kicking you there's only two things you can do. one, cover up and wait for the beating to stop or grab one of them and hold on for dear life and try to cause as much damage to the one you got a hold of, The others are RAPID FIRING punches and kicks so fast you can't do anything about it.

Sometimes when surrounded by more than one person you have to just fight your ass off and when the first opportunity arises, then take off. My sifu used to tell me "run away live to fight another day"....... Running away doesn't mean you are a chicken $hit. it means you can recognize the odds are not in your favor.

****, this MMA vs Kung Fu thing is getting sooooooooo boring.

actually as an MMA guy and grappler i can also clinch with you use you as a shield and knee the cr*p out of you, they throw you to create a hole to escape though, or i can Thai box your A$$ because news flash MMA guys can do stand up fighting as well :)

Or as an in shape athlete i can just sprint faster than you can catch up with me :)

[Lucas]

as an in shape athlete

qft...huge factor.

[sanjuro_ronin]

have you guys read the new e-zine article? extremely relevant to this discussion topic.....read it suckas

http://kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1006

Chow Gar SPM in the MMA world, facinating.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that's an over estimation of people's ability to pick up new skills.... framing, shrimping, replacing the guard.... that's just to survive. That alone, to really own escapes, can take that long.

And again, that's just to understand how to escape and replace guard.

Going from guard to Kimura. To Omaplata. Getting a good arm bar. A good triangle... that takes at least 3 years. Developing these tools into one's game, that's at purple belt level and early brown belt level. There's a difference between knowing a movement and having the subtleties, sensitivities, explosiveness.... the knowledge of recognizing positions before being in them.

For what Eric is looking for, with his MA background, a year should be fine.
And by that I mean a year of at least 3 times a week.

[Frost]

what are the chances of having a solid state level wrestler trying to take you down in real life altercation? i'd say slim. do you NEED a solid base of ground grappling for every day life? no, i dont think so.

i think cma is as good of a choice for self defense as any other system out there, and better than some, imo. for instance i'd prefer most any style of cma over most styles of aikido. but maybe thats just me.

i personally decided to cross train in judo because of the popularity of mma. most people now who dont have training will do what they see on tv and in sports arenas. what ever is popular. the decision to adapt my boxing to meet my regional and cultural needs is actually a shaolin philosophy that i agree with, and practice.

I agree with the popularity of MMA you are more likely to face it than a traditional art, also what are the chances of meeting someone trained in grappling and takedowns compared to say a TCMA trained guy......id say you are more likely to meet a grappler than someone using the centre line theory, judo is massive, wrestling in a lot of schools in north america and if we include rugby and american football as sports with takedowns in them you are more likely to face a grappler than a trained stand up fighter of any sort

[Frost]

qft...huge factor.

well as a powerlifter and grappler my shapes a bit more round these days lol:)

but being in shape is necessary for sports combat as you know, and goes a long way to helping you avoid certain situations and escape others

[Frost]

For what Eric is looking for, with his MA background, a year should be fine.
And by that I mean a year of at least 3 times a week.

id go further and say twice a week for around a year in a good school will let you handle most people out there, you need stand ups, escape and sweeps thats it, no need for anything sub wise apart from chokes really

[sanjuro_ronin]

id go further and say twice a week for around a year in a good school will let you handle most people out there, you need stand ups, escape and sweeps thats it, no need for anything sub wise apart from chokes really

Exactly, you are not training to become a grappler or MMA fighter but training how to DEAL WITH them with you EXISTING skillset.

[mjw]

I think the ground fighting just got lost perhaps because on the battle field with multiples you just want to get up or you die!

Otherwise my BJJ teacher roots the history of it from japan and before that china then india much like karate's history so it must have been there but who knows.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the ground fighting just got lost perhaps because on the battle field with multiples you just want to get up or you die!

Otherwise my BJJ teacher roots the history of it from japan and before that china then india much like karate's history so it must have been there but who knows.....

Certainly one does not want to STAY on the ground in the middle of a battle or with multiple attackers,but one may certainly NOT have any choice so being able to fight there and from there, would be crucial.

[YouKnowWho]

Just watch an UFC this week. The Japanese guy got his opponent in a full mount and I thought his opponent was going to lose. In order to be able to punch his opponent's head, the Japanese guy raised up a little bit, this gave his opponent a chance to raise his legs over that Japanese guy's shoulder and finished him with a beautiful arm bar. That fight make me to believe the value of the ground game.

There is a lot of interest idea in the ground game. It's safer than to take a

- punch on the head,
- kick on the chest, or
- throw on the body.

No wonder the ground game is so popular today. If you just get a training partner and have fun, you will pick up some good idea soon. It's not that hard to integrated the ground game into your system. Even if you are 80 years old, it just seems to me that you should still be able to roll on the ground for "fun".

Every year, my opinion toward the "ground game" are changing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most people that don't have a ground game or ever went up against someone that has, have no idea the great equalizer it can be.

[YouKnowWho]

It seems to me that the "ground game" can help people to enjoy their life if their are still interested in "competation" during their old age. When you are 80 years old, a punch on your head, a kick on your chest, or a throw on tyour head may kill you. The ground game is even safer than the wrestling. What can arm bar, leg bar, or choke do to you? All you need is to "tap". How hard can that be?

[Dragonzbane76]

Most people that don't have a ground game or ever went up against someone that has, have no idea the great equalizer it can be.

it neutralizes the strike. Getting close to someone isn't that hard. even if a grapplers stand up sucks he can throw some crappy haymakers and close the distance to get into the comfort zone he's looking for.

grappling is a great equalizer, but i'm also tired of the idiots that every time you say this they go, "well you don't want 5 guys bashing your skull in while your on the ground." No sh!t. There is a time and place for everything and sometimes you can't dictate where the fight will go. Getting blindsided by someone and ending up on the ground is not something you can change if it's meant to happen. So learn the ground, learn postioning, learn how to obtain leverage, and learn how to defend, and learn how to get back to your feet.

[Howard]

Ground work is one of the elements necessary of an all rounded MA practitioner but it should not be the sole focus.

I started in the wrong direction with kickboxing, then MMA, and later hung gar for a little a while. Nowadays finally found a comprehensive martial art practice which happens to be TCMA from North China, which includes more than enough of all the elements to suit my needs and interest.

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.onthemat.com/system/files/images/esq-06-gina-carano-100611-lg-50713967.jpg

http://media.heavy.com/media/2009/08/jiujitsu.jpg


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WLPNYkIKzZQ/TTZyEg_TXBI/AAAAAAAACgQ/rWokkfjLwTM/s1600/Miesha%2BTate%2B7.jpg

[Ray Pina]

Most people that don't have a ground game or ever went up against someone that has, have no idea the great equalizer it can be.

Likewise, someone who just understands the basic grips, the basic throw and takedown. How to escape mount and side control..... no chance against an equally sized/aged man of three years, Who's transitioning from throw to double leg.... sitting out when you shrimp to escape side control. Working armbars while transitioning to north/south...... putting knee on belly waiting for the "one year" response to set up the knee bar.

Grappling is such a beautiful art but it is a science. Every problem can be solved.... a year one guy is learning 1+1=2. A three year player is rolling in multiple dimensions literally.

You don't need it if you're comfortable with your hands with 9.7 out of 10 guy's you'll meet.

If you plan on playing with guys with an interest in martial arts, a combat sport background, even a contact sport background, (your peers) then it's an amazing advantage to have over anyone. To know you can control someone and finish them is like having a master key.

To only devote a year is to learn just enough to get you into serious trouble.

[Ray Pina]

Here's my point. There are men who devote their lives for years to wrestling and or BJJ.... by the time they're 25 year old studs they have a decade of competition behind them. A newbie doesn't come in and survive..... the upper ranks play with them, set the up to make them escape, etc. There's no competition.

If you want to be one of them. You have to become one of them. And then you will be a competitive grappler.

There's no 1-year anti-grappling course. Either you understand it and live it or don't.

As a martial artist, one has to be comfortable with either knowing it or not and hoping they never face an experienced expert grappler. You will if you compete MMA.

When I was a kid I used to complain when I lost point sparring because I had more power than the other kids. I knew one good shot to the face would be it and it wasn't allowed, etc.

MMA has erased that excuse. My power and skill was overcome by much more skill and focused power. I heard differently here, but every MMA gym I've associated with was 100% set up to train fighters. It was a team. They had a team logo. You trained to fight... so you were comfortable striking and grappling. That was the 100% focus.

You either are one of those people or not. If you are not, you can not compete.

All the rules ask are no biting, kicking the groin, no eye attacks. No back of the head. No kicking a downed man..... those are gentlemen rules.

[Eric Olson]

There's no 1-year anti-grappling course. Either you understand it and live it or don't.

Uh, yeah, that's realistic for most people :rolleyes: I think we need to borrow a phrase from Occupy Wall Street and talk about the other 99 percent. You're talking about one percent of people that have the attributes, time and inclination to be pro or semi-pro. Sure, we need those people to advance the art, but what about the 99 percent of people that have other careers and would benefit from learning stuff that can benefit their health and for self-defense? I think your view is a wee bit myopic.

EO

[mjw]

Certainly one does not want to STAY on the ground in the middle of a battle or with multiple attackers,but one may certainly NOT have any choice so being able to fight there and from there, would be crucial.

Yes but when training many men to fight quickly on the battle field certain things may have been left out due to time to train such soldiers etc etc

[Ray Pina]

Uh, yeah, that's realistic for most people :rolleyes: I think we need to borrow a phrase from Occupy Wall Street and talk about the other 99 percent.

Training to prepare for MMA or a BJJ contest with high level athletes is not easy. However, there are many people who do it while working real jobs, supporting families and maintaining other hobbies. It's a matter of making the most of your time. Which is why these silly discussions on the importance of form burn me.... who has time to waste on such silliness?



You're talking about one percent of people that have the attributes, time and inclination to be pro or semi-pro. Sure, we need those people to advance the art, but what about the 99 percent of people that have other careers and would benefit from learning stuff that can benefit their health and for self-defense? I think your view is a wee bit myopic.
EO

You don't change the thing to make it simple, avoid the competition, and then call it the same thing. Health is related to martial arts. The training makes you healthy. You make the body resilient. You also become aware of your body. When you push the machine you become intimate with it.

Making yourself "healthy" -- relative term -- doesn't equal self defense. If you're going to excel in a violent encounter it has to be something you deal with regularly. If you want to be even in the mid-level purple belt range of grappling, you need 3 years. Maybe if you're awesome 2-2.5..... there's no easy way. You have to work, sweat, bleed..... it aint for everyone. I'm out with a busted shoulder right now. That's part of it too. learning to manage, make due. Train around injuries.

The 99% are home on their fat asses.... you shouldn't consider yourself among them if you're a martial artists. By the nature of the quest you should be better than that.

[Ray Pina]

Yes but when training many men to fight quickly on the battle field certain things may have been left out due to time to train such soldiers etc etc

The U.S. Army trains BJJ.

[Frost]

To only devote a year is to learn just enough to get you into serious trouble.

No its not Ray, you are in love with grappling (as i am) and am looking at it from that point of view

but to say only 1 years of training is just enough to get you in trouble thats silly,

A year will stand you in good stead against most football and rugby players, former high school wrestlers who never went to college and havent trained in a while and MMA fanboys, it will give you enough skill to go along with your stand up to worry a lot of striaght grapplers who only have a few years training

[taai gihk yahn]

No its not Ray, you are in love with grappling (as i am) and am looking at it from that point of view

but to say only 1 years of training is just enough to get you in trouble thats silly,

A year will stand you in good stead against most football and rugby players, former high school wrestlers who never went to college and havent trained in a while and MMA fanboys, it will give you enough skill to go along with your stand up to worry a lot of striaght grapplers who only have a few years training

agreed - I did BJJ for about a year; it doesn't make me a skilled grappler by any means, but what it did was expose me to all of the mistakes that you make when u have no clue at all about what to do on the ground; I now have a basic understanding at least what NOT to do against a trained grappler and a lot of what a trained grappler is going to try to do to me (arm bar, side control submission, mount, get my back/RNC); I kno what and what NOT to do if someone gets my back, mounts me, etc.; I kno what it feels like when someone puts their knee on ur belly, wraps there arm around your throat, etc. and will not "freak out" bec it's unfamiliar; I may not be competitive in any sort of grappling venue, but if I ever had to deal with a grappling situation in "teh str33t", I hav enuf capacity to manage things so as not to b beaten due to unfamiliarity (of course, the other guy may b better than me, but that's a different story);

[Dragonzbane76]

i love grappling to and imo a year would do anyone fine. exposing yourself to it will definitely help your all around game. Who knows if you take the step to try something you might end up sticking with it.

I have to say not everyone is at the level of comps. but comps are just something to work towards. I always talk with people about MA and they usually state they are to old to start something like that. Your never to old, your never to out of shape. Just go do it. No one is forcing anyone to compete. But with grappling its a 2 man practice you can't learn to roll unless you have someone there to try with. I can show someone all the subs and locks in the world but until you feel it and learn the leverage points you will never be able to pull them off with resistance.
stand up is a little different but you still need two people to see what you are capable of. all the bag work and mitt work in the world will not show you what it feels like in resistance. but you have more tools available to help you train in that area solo.

[Ray Pina]

I'll concede 1 year of training followed by 1 quarterly seminar. Just to be exposed to different game types and to roll with strangers in a friendly way.:)

[Syn7]

i can see why the nobles who practiced MAs wouldnt wanna roll around in what they would have seen as a very undignified activity. but you would think that ground fighting would have been picked up by the lowly villiage master and especially by the criminal elements whose main focus is not honor or showing skill, but to simply win by any and all means necessary. as a means of survival i know beyond a shoadow of a doubt that people ended up on the ground. its natural. and two real enemies that went down for whatever reason are not gonna just reset and stand up. they will keep fighting. and sure, many would deem their standup skills enough to save them on the ground, but their had to be many that saw the potential in knowing what youre doing down there...

[Frost]

I'll concede 1 year of training followed by 1 quarterly seminar. Just to be exposed to different game types and to roll with strangers in a friendly way.:)

yep and id concede to you, 1 year to get what you need, but regular seminars and some rolling on a regular basis even just with your class mates to stay at that level would be a must

[ShaolinDan]

Originally Posted by ShaolinDan View Post
Personally, I have no real interest in ground fighting without striking...just not my thing.



If you are inferior in straight grappling, it's because you don't understand the position, how to control it, how to advance it and how to escape it.... allowing striking will not help you then other than the lucky punch, which happens. But you can take the beating of a lifetime taking that gamble. Which, personally, is why I think we see no straight TCMAer in MMA..... no one is willing to put their arse on the line. Just talk and type.

Well, actually, I'm really just not into all the face-sitting. :p

[ShaolinDan]

Ok. I feel a little obnoxious after that last post. I'm not going to delete it, that's not my style, but I will explain myself.

I was checking out the website for the MMA gym in my area (which actually looks pretty good I think)...and while I still might consider taking some of their MMA classes, after watching these videos I decided straight grappling just wasn't my thing. Sorry if it's offensive to anyone, but this is not how I want to spend my time. And frankly, I don't think it's all that practical for self-defense either.


http://www.youtube.com/nesfmma/#p/a/u/1/GTiLtZdPPC8
http://www.youtube.com/nesfmma/#p/a/u/2/0aRmfB1qDYk

[Ray Pina]

\ you would think that ground fighting would have been picked up by the lowly villiage master and especially by the criminal elements whose main focus is not honor or showing skill, but to simply win by any and all means necessary..

The Mongolians were and still are awesome grapplers.

[Ray Pina]

Well, actually, I'm really just not into all the face-sitting. :p

Maybe you're gay.

Some guys get a little insecure around well conditioned men.

Sometimes you get in what would be an awkward position with a man or woman... sometimes you're tight face to face, sometime you're practically 69.... it would be awkward in any instance except self defense. Fighting is intimate. Up close and personal.

The video you posted was the worst piece of advertising they would have used.

Here's some comp clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_UhngTCZK8&feature=related

This shows a pretty good level. Compare the fitness level between this and True2Form tournament.

[ShaolinDan]

Maybe you're gay.

Some guys get a little insecure around well conditioned men.

Sometimes you get in what would be an awkward position with a man or woman... sometimes you're tight face to face, sometime you're practically 69.... it would be awkward in any instance except self defense. Fighting is intimate. Up close and personal.

The video you posted was the worst piece of advertising they would have used.

Here's some comp clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_UhngTCZK8&feature=related

This shows a pretty good level. Compare the fitness level between this and True2Form tournament.

Dude. You posted a highlights video. I posted actual rolling time. This school is good. ( and 2 of only 3 vids they have posted) "Oldest continuous MMa Gym in New England." Look at the results at the MMA venue they compete at, 4 out of 5 matches they won. Those videos are the real deal.

why should I compare with true to form? That's not what I do. For real self-defense, straight grappling is about as useful as point-sparring. It may be a good stepping-stone (and a fine art in itself), but the dynamic of the combat is totally artificial.

[hskwarrior]

Training to prepare for MMA or a BJJ contest with high level athletes is not easy. However, there are many people who do it while working real jobs, supporting families and maintaining other hobbies. It's a matter of making the most of your time. Which is why these silly discussions on the importance of form burn me.... who has time to waste on such silliness?

You let the above bother you way too much.

[Dragonzbane76]

For real self-defense, straight grappling is about as useful as point-sparring.

wow really? real self-defense, hum....

well, what would your definition of self-defense be then, if you don't have a plan when someone takes you down?

[MightyB]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu this never occurred to anyone? Seriously?

EO

They didn't dry hump in battle for the same reason Spartans and Hoplites didn't.... swords, spears, and crowds of angry people with pointy things that wanted you dead.

[bawang]

why doesnt muay thai include ground grappling?


most top grapplers trained since childhood, while kung fu people started learning grappling to "reclaim the honor of kung fu". thats why they always lose. they train not to get pleasure from hurting people, but out of ego.

[PalmStriker]

I read an article years ago about a General, possibly Chinese, that realized, from previous campaign warfare that many men would die on the battlefield after going down from wounds. He increased the ability of his own troops to fight off attackers (as ground fighters) so that they might take out a few last "opportunists" on their way out. This General was credited for doing this (historic documentation) and his troops were effective in this endeavor against the enemy even though they all ultimately died being outnumbered in later encounters.

[MightyB]

Bare Hands 100 days

Spear 1000 days

Sword 10000 days

---

Dry humping is just low on the priority list of CMA.

[Frost]

Bare Hands 100 days

Spear 1000 days

Sword 10000 days

---

Dry humping is just low on the priority list of CMA.

yep they were practical and gave the most practise time to what they were likely to face on the battle field

i would suspect that 2 and 3 are low on the priority list these days, but dry humping might be quite high :)

[omarthefish]

Yep.

Seems obvious once it's pointed out. The idea that grappling is unimportant today is just as silly as the idea that it was primary in the cold steel era.

Evolution at work. Survival of the best suited to the environment. As the environment changes, so do priorities. Mountain bandits armed with swords and spears are just kinda rare these days.

[MightyB]

yep they were practical and gave the most practise time to what they were likely to face on the battle field

i would suspect that 2 and 3 are low on the priority list these days, but dry humping might be quite high :)

You're saying something I think a lot of people really don't get:

BJJ is in our time - it's our generation's thing. We're the one's that have to learn to deal with it.

[David Jamieson]

why doesnt muay thai include ground grappling?


most top grapplers trained since childhood, while kung fu people started learning grappling to "reclaim the honor of kung fu". thats why they always lose. they train not to get pleasure from hurting people, but out of ego.

lol. All martial arts are trained out of ego. People don't understand what ego is or what it does and just make stupid statements about it like someone reads the secret and thinks that's meaningful.

lol. no ego? You got no fight in you at all. the problem is too many people being confused by the juxtaposition of non-violence that occurs in TCMA quite often as the dude in the kwai chang cain costume advises you that this move will kill someone, so don't use it.

what utter bollocks so much of it is.

as for competition, well that's training and fun too.

Gun still trumps all of it, so "it's for real" or "it's not for real" are also crap statements.

Superior violence is inflicted by superior weapons. Sport combat et al isn't any more "real" than wu shu. lol That's the silly part.

[Ray Pina]

why doesnt muay thai include ground grappling?


Muay Thai is a great tool. Many serious fighters adopt it.

Serious fighters who want to compare against other, the most serious fighters, will also adopt ground grappling tools as well if they play in the MMA or Vale Tudo forum.

No grappling = no chance.

[bawang]

to grabble is to live.

[MightyB]

I'll tell you why! :mad:

'Cuz you can't go to the ground against a Zombie!

RNCing a zombie is the surest way to becoming a walking hamburger with an appetite for human flesh!

[Grasshopper101]

I think the important thing to consider is that most all combat was developed for battlefield use (Shaolin temple mythology aside).

Whether the style is Japanese, Chinese, or Korean - the fundamentals are the same: You need to teach mass armies of peasants the basics of how to fight with whatever weapon they are equipped with, and how to handle themselves when the battle degenerated into close quarter combat.

If you look at the Japanese systems of old jujutsu, they taught a variety of pins and hold downs that were (according to what I was told) used for dispatching enemies on the battlefield when they entered grappling range. Either they assumed a dominant position and finished their opponent off with whatever means availible, or a comrade did it for them while they held their opponent down for a spear thrust, etc.

I would assume that TCMA had similar techniques, as this would be a common occurence.

That said, to fall down on the battlefield was probably "death," and I'm sure guys avoided it whenever possible, and trained on how to get up quickly. I would suspect that a lot of "techniques" were taught by veterens and survivors of previous battles, and passed on the "tricks" they learned to the new guys.

When it comes to preserving a "martial art" and teaching it to people in a non military setting, often times the battlefield applications may be discarded or lost due to a variety of reasons. Even the Japanese styles of jujutsu that had attempted to "preserve" their arts had lost their combat effectiveness about the time Kano came around and showed them up.

As someone mentioned above, I would suspect the styles of kung-fu that we are exposed to are ones that had evolved more for personal self defense, and whatever battlefield elements that were in them (if they ever were, as the style may have been "created" at a time of relative peace), and the focus was just not on ground grappling.

I would look at Okinawan Karate as an example - TCMA taught to farmers who then tried to use it against professional soldiers. They lost the war as Okinawa never gained its independence, and obviously farmers with tools were no match for professional soldiers with superior weapons, no matter how much kata they practiced.

Ground grappling was probably not much of an issue in those fights, but I can't help but notice that karate is also lacking in ground grappling, as well as tae kwon do (which comes from karate). I think the Japanese kept more of it in their styles of jujutsu and koryu due to their nature of creating a school for just about everything, and attempting to preserve it whenever possible.

So I would suggest that TCMA may have had it at some point in time, but was cast off when it was felt it was no longer needed.

[MightyB]

There was rope tying, horsemanship, formation, water tactics, bowmanship, crossbowmanship, horsemounted weaponry technique, running, climbing, group tactics...

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a big difference between military MA like the koryu systems of feudal Japan and civilian "peasant" MA like those that were taught to non-military people.
ALL military systems revolved around weapons first and empty hand second and most empty hand was grappling and throwing ( you don't strike armour with bare hands).
It makes sense that civilian systems were more oriented towards grappling and striking and that the striking portion became developed.
One of the most effective Jujutsu systems in terms of striking was the Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu and it was developed by a low ranking samurai for civilian use.
In terms of military systems Japan has the most catalogued and it is logical to assume that what they did typiclaly was what was done in most asian cultures ( and even western) and what do we find?
Priority on edge and projectile weapons ( sword, knife, bow and arrow), secondary priority on grappling with weapons and last off empty hand grappling and striking.
You find this is also the pattern in western military arts.
And ground grappling was used and taught because you DID end up on the ground and had to defend yourself from there.
Of course it was a question of protect and get your ass up, rather than submit, but remember that you are dealing with armoured and armed fighters and that changes a lot.

What we have left over in TCMA and even the majority of TMA of Japan, Okinawa and Korea, are civilian systems and as such, we can't compare those "apples and organges".
Sure they are both fruits and both have peels and both have seeds and both grow on trees, but no one will every confuse one with the other.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The worst part about these discussions is the idiocy that comes along with "my co***ck is bigger than yours" statements and overall douchebaggery.

A "straight" art is something that focuses only on one aspect. If I am a great kickboxer I will do well against another striker and possibly a grappler however if the grappler gets clinch I am most likely fu**cked. Training striking from the clinch as opposed to stand up with distance is two different things and are trained differently.

Also, a straight grappler is going to have a hard time dealing with strikes if he is not used to it. A pure wrestler or pure BJJ guy who gets his shot or takedown stuffed and starts eating knees and or liver and rib shots is going to have a hard time dealing.

Really all this hypothetical BS is just that, Bull Sh**it!! Train all areas and be ready. Stop nut riding a style, I assure neither an old master from China or one of the Gracies give a sh**it about you honoring their style.:rolleyes: The mere mention of it is retarded and makes me want to vomit!!

[wenshu]

There is a big difference between military MA like the koryu systems of feudal Japan and civilian "peasant" MA like those that were taught to non-military people.
ALL military systems revolved around weapons first and empty hand second and most empty hand was grappling and throwing ( you don't strike armour with bare hands).
It makes sense that civilian systems were more oriented towards grappling and striking and that the striking portion became developed.
One of the most effective Jujutsu systems in terms of striking was the Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu and it was developed by a low ranking samurai for civilian use.
In terms of military systems Japan has the most catalogued and it is logical to assume that what they did typiclaly was what was done in most asian cultures ( and even western) and what do we find?
Priority on edge and projectile weapons ( sword, knife, bow and arrow), secondary priority on grappling with weapons and last off empty hand grappling and striking.
You find this is also the pattern in western military arts.
And ground grappling was used and taught because you DID end up on the ground and had to defend yourself from there.
Of course it was a question of protect and get your ass up, rather than submit, but remember that you are dealing with armoured and armed fighters and that changes a lot.

What we have left over in TCMA and even the majority of TMA of Japan, Okinawa and Korea, are civilian systems and as such, we can't compare those "apples and organges".
Sure they are both fruits and both have peels and both have seeds and both grow on trees, but no one will every confuse one with the other.

Also have to consider that the Edo period represents the stagnation of the development and practice of actual battlefield tactics among the military class and the movements towards Confucian ideals of cultivation, scholarship and ethics.

The same cycle of political stability and its pacifying influence on martial practice can be seen in China. I think this is one of the main historical roots of the problem of ineffectiveness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also have to consider that the Edo period represents the stagnation of the development and practice of actual battlefield tactics among the military class and the movements towards Confucian ideals of cultivation, scholarship and ethics.

The same cycle of political stability and its pacifying influence on martial practice can be seen in China. I think this is one of the main historical roots of the problem of ineffectiveness.

Quite correct and in Okinawa too.
The fighting system of "TE" was replaced by the combative art of Karate that was more focused on "spiritual" matters than on practical combat, much to the shagrin of many old school TE masters.

[Hardwork108]

The worst part about these discussions is the idiocy that comes along with "my co***ck is bigger than yours" statements...........

Is it my fault?:confused:


A "straight" art is something that focuses only on one aspect. If I am a great kickboxer I will do well against another striker and possibly a grappler however if the grappler gets clinch I am most likely fu**cked. Training striking from the clinch as opposed to stand up with distance is two different things and are trained differently.
I personally have not come across a kung fu style that was striking only and/or focused on one aspect! IF you have, then chances are that you were being taken for a ride like most who claim TCMA "experience".;)


Also, a straight grappler is going to have a hard time dealing with strikes if he is not used to it.
Is there such a thing as a "straight" grappler? :D

Hey, just kidding! LOL!


Really all this hypothetical BS is just that, Bull Sh**it!! Train all areas and be ready. Stop nut riding a style, I assure neither an old master from China or one of the Gracies give a sh**it about you honoring their style.:rolleyes:

AS far as the TCMAs are concerned, if you have been lucky enough to find a genuine kwoon that teaches you the art in a complete and hardcore manner - it is not about honoring so much the style, but of honoring your own intelligence (attention span included)! ;)

[Taixuquan99]

99% of kung fu is a relation between striking and clinch. A tiny bit deals with ground issues.

[Hardwork108]

99% of kung fu is a relation between striking and clinch. A tiny bit deals with ground issues.
I wouldn't know because I have not practiced 99% of the kung fu on the planet.;)

I only speak of what I know of for sure. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you sure you know?
Things aren't always what they seem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

Are you sure you know?
Things aren't always what they seem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE&feature=related

That was very funny! :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Originally posted by Hard On 108:


AS far as the TCMAs are concerned, if you have been lucky enough to find a genuine kwoon that teaches you the art in a complete and hardcore manner - it is not about honoring so much the style, but of honoring your own intelligence (attention span included)!

I was not directing anything towards you, but as usual I see you took it that way. Funny, my website, name, credentials, and all else are easily accessed, as well as some of my training videos and what not. But you of course remain a cowardly net ghost who likes to twist things into what you believe, or, more accurately, what you would like to believe.

Have fun with that.;)

[David Jamieson]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand. Usually because they talk too much and don't listen, but hey, patience is a virtue. :)

Not that I"m virtuous, just saying... :D

[Hardwork108]

Originally posted by Hard On 108:
Finally someone who got my name right! :D




I was not directing anything towards you, but as usual I see you took it that way.
I was just referring to a general truth. The point was that any thorough study of a given discipline will give a multi level understanding of it otherwise one is just "shooting in the dark" as proven when the "TCMA-ists", with decades of "experience" (and their real names :rolleyes:) were recently proven to be wrong about the TCMAs not addressing the ground scenario (as well as the existance of the Internals as valid methodologies and the importance/relevance of forms for kung fu training).

I hope that my point is clearer now. :)


Funny, my website, name, credentials, and all else are easily accessed, as well as some of my training videos and what not. But you of course remain a cowardly net ghost who likes to twist things into what you believe, or, more accurately, what you would like to believe.

Yet the "ghost" got it right and has been right for years about the existance and validity of the Internals; the existance of ground training in the TCMAs, and the relevance of forms training, while many who post their "experience"; their real names; websites; email; grandmother's address etc, got it wrong, because they had no clue about these specific subject matters!

You know, I am not a coward, but some of you guys are really courageous, because you have the guts to reveal your real names while you go on to post many untrue generalizations and suppositions as regards TCMA training methodologies in which your experiences are at best questionable (in line with the real world Mcdojo phenomenon).

If I were you, I would pay close attention to statements make by the likes of Sifu Patterson here in the forums. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand. Usually because they talk too much and don't listen, but hey, patience is a virtue. :)

You can say that again! I don't know how many times I am going to have to repeat myself to that Iron Eagle fellow! :D

[Northwind]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand.

So whatcha sayin here? TCMA got no ground-game?
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) :P

[David Jamieson]

So whatcha sayin here? TCMA got no ground-game?
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) :P

****** Kyle! :mad::mad:




:p

[Frost]

Guys why are you bothering? Seriously if you are happy in your training why spent so much time arguing over points we all know we will never budge over? Its not like anyone on this thread is going to say…wait you are right I have been wrong all along thanks for the insight…..its not going to happen and we all know it so why bother?

[David Jamieson]

Guys why are you bothering? Seriously if you are happy in your training why spent so much time arguing over points we all know we will never budge over? Its not like anyone on this thread is going to say…wait you are right I have been wrong all along thanks for the insight…..its not going to happen and we all know it so why bother?

gimme a break.

people jump into the kungfu forum here and start baiting kung fu people with mma vs arguments.

Why should anyone say they were wrong for undertaking to train Kung Fu?

There is nothing more or less unusual about that than undertaking anything else.
Of all the wasted energy people put into their efforts, arguing about BJJ, Muay Thai, catch wrestling, judo etc etc in a Kung Fu forum is the height of retardedness in my opinion and attempting to bait and shove opinions down peoples throats based on whatever is lame as well.

Truth is that everyone has something to learn form everyone.

Many Kung Fu guys are adapting a lot of their training methods and picking up from modern methods and working them into their routines. And keeping the old stuff too because it does have value.

But on the other side of that coin? Yeah, that's the interesting part. lol

[Iron_Eagle_76]

gimme a break.

people jump into the kungfu forum here and start baiting kung fu people with mma vs arguments.

Why should anyone say they were wrong for undertaking to train Kung Fu?

There is nothing more or less unusual about that than undertaking anything else.
Of all the wasted energy people put into their efforts, arguing about BJJ, Muay Thai, catch wrestling, judo etc etc in a Kung Fu forum is the height of retardedness in my opinion and attempting to bait and shove opinions down peoples throats based on whatever is lame as well.

Truth is that everyone has something to learn form everyone.

Many Kung Fu guys are adapting a lot of their training methods and picking up from modern methods and working them into their routines. And keeping the old stuff too because it does have value.

But on the other side of that coin? Yeah, that's the interesting part. lol




Truth is that everyone has something to learn form everyone.

Not really. There are many people on this forum who bring with them knowledge and experience regarding Kung Fu and other styles of martial arts that they have trained extensively in and provide valid advice and training method discussions which I find of great value.

There are others who sh***it up the forum with neverending crap and arguments taht they never provide any kind of concrete or substantial evidence or even ideologies that they could easily explain or show, and turns into a "you don't know what I know". I learn and advance in both skills and thought everyday, but is not from the likes of these kind.:)

[Ray Pina]

Guys why are you bothering? Seriously if you are happy in your training why spent so much time arguing over points we all know we will never budge over? Its not like anyone on this thread is going to say…wait you are right I have been wrong all along thanks for the insight…..its not going to happen and we all know it so why bother?

Oh, I know.

I just like calling people out on their bull****.


Think of how much ego goes into creating a whole website dedicated to your mastering of martial arts.... and then none of these bums ever fight:)

Guys like Novell talking $hit while out of breath jogging, about how he's keeping it real .... zero sanctioned fights.

Articles on guys walking the circle with bawling balls:confused:.... that one was hilarious!

And now the recent kicker.... TCMA has a very good ground game suitable for real war, where you don't want to "hug a man". Just not suitable for matted gyms where wrestlers, Judokai, BJJers and real grapplers converge..... not suitable to be tested.

And then there's the couple guys who do TCMA while training MMA.... they might as well attribute any MMA success to any other hobby they have, fly fishing for instance.

Generally, Kung Fu stinks and nobody has done nothing with it to make me think otherwise. Ping-pong has a couple unique, jing-like flip of the wrist moves.... doesn't impress me for fighting.

[Northwind]

Generally, Kung Fu stinks and nobody has done nothing with it to make me think otherwise. Ping-pong has a couple unique, jing-like flip of the wrist moves.... doesn't impress me for fighting.

Dude if Kung Fu stinks, PLEASE F*****ing LEAVE the KUNG FU Forum.

[YouKnowWho]

Kung Fu stinks .

You can use Kung Fu to knock the sh!t out of people and that's why it's "stink".

[Taixuquan99]

And then there's the couple guys who do TCMA while training MMA.... they might as well attribute any MMA success to any other hobby they have, fly fishing for instance.


I'm glad you're pointing out THOSE guys BS. Does it ever feel a bit schizophrenic?

[ginosifu]

Generally, Kung Fu stinks and nobody has done nothing with it to make me think otherwise. Ping-pong has a couple unique, jing-like flip of the wrist moves.... doesn't impress me for fighting.

Ray,
You are using a narrow minded approach to your observations of Kung Fu. The people around you or the people you know, may not have done well with Kung Fu. On a whole..... how do you know what the rest of the world has done using Kung Fu?

I did pretty well with it, so did my teacher (He was a kickboxing champion back in that Chuck Norris era 70's & 80's). Just because you don't see any good Kung Fu guys out there, does not mean they do not exist. Also it does not mean that Kung Fu is no good, you just have not seen it first hand.

In the end, I feel confident that if would ever get into a scuffle that I would be prepared. There are many more like me and my teacher who have done well using Kung Fu.

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

On a related note, I have found that using the following partners when practicing grappling make it much more fun:

http://www.youtube.com/user/knockoutfit#p/u/13/A6a9RYoHHBI

Who would have thought!!:p

[Ray Pina]

You are using a narrow minded approach to your observations of Kung Fu. The people around you or the people you know, may not have done well with Kung Fu. On a whole..... how do you know what the rest of the world has done using Kung Fu?

I turn on Spike Channel and watch the UFC... never see Kung Fu.

Then I open magazines and people's web sites and see fake monks posing on their ancestors graves with fake weapons, white guys dressed like jack a$$es doing drunk form.... people beating foam noodles. Then they post how they're for real and high level.

That's how I know.



I did pretty well with it, so did my teacher (He was a kickboxing champion back in that Chuck Norris era 70's & 80's).

Champion of what? What sanctioned event? What was his record to be champion in what year?

[Ray Pina]

That one was so funny I got to get back to it.

If Kung Fu was even somewhat decent at producing competent combatives we would see them.

We see form.
We see internal.
We see weapons.
We see lion and dragon dancing.
We see monks and incense


That is what Kung Fu does. So that is what we see of Kung Fu.

If Kung Fu worked its stand up seriously. Sparred regularly... we would seem them well represented in open competition, even if they were "somewhat competent" ... say along the lines of TKD.

If Kung FU was even somewhat competent at its ground game, trained realistically with resistance. Had a developed program.... we would see it represented in Grapplers Quest, and similar open grappling tournaments.

Again, we don't see Kung Fu in wither of those venues.

If a healthy population are engaged in both of those activities, a percentage would wind up in open competition. Kung Fu people feel comfortable competing in form because they're not trained to fight.

It's that simple. You can use a million words to explain it and it doesn't mean anything until TCMA produces somebody that can go out and compete with the rest of the world. Not champions of venues no one worth their salt would be caught dead at..... ie, True2Form and essentially push-hand tournaments dubbed as full contact world championships.

How do you people sleep with yourselves as night?

[Lucas]

ray, have you ever watched something like chinese international/national sanda/sanshou championships?

here is a clip of some takedowns/throws from the world wushu championships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54GMwDyBi5A&feature=fvsr

thats just one clip. you may not like the rules, or the headgear or the gloves. but man i would put the same challenge to you that you are putting to everyone else. go find out for yourself. see how your standup/takedown/throwing game is alongside those competators, many of which are cma trained, and enter the next international wushu championships and see how well you fair. maybe you take gold, maybe you dont even place, but just maybe you walk away with a new respect for aspects you didnt know existed.

you're looking for how cma works in the sport world, for that you must look at sanshou/sanda. that is cma sport fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

If Kung Fu was even somewhat decent at producing competent combatives we would see them.

We see form.
We see internal.
We see weapons.
We see lion and dragon dancing.
We see monks and incense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eVGBLUSHf8

Ray:

This guy has "no" training in boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, and BJJ. His fighting style is 100% TCMA which include:

- long fist,
- mantis,
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- WC,
- SC.

He has Sanshou record of 18-4 under his belt. Within 15 seconds, he could apply his roundhouse kick, side kick, punch, bear hug, knee, outer leg hook throw combo twice in a role. That's not by luck. It was pure skill and his opponent was not weak either.

[MightyB]

On a related note, I have found that using the following partners when practicing grappling make it much more fun:

http://www.youtube.com/user/knockoutfit#p/u/13/A6a9RYoHHBI

Who would have thought!!:p

I want to go to there.

[ginosifu]

I turn on Spike Channel and watch the UFC... never see Kung Fu.

I have many NON martial arts people that I talk with on a daily basis. Every last one of them who ever watched a spike channel UFC match says the same thing to me: "Sifu what is that stuff on Spike Channel? It looks like they are just brawling, no skill just guys laying on top of each other in their under pants".


Then I open magazines and people's web sites and see fake monks posing on their ancestors graves with fake weapons, white guys dressed like jack a$$es doing drunk form.... people beating foam noodles. Then they post how they're for real and high level.

Again why would you look in a magazine? Which websites? How do I know which kung fu schools you are talking about? There are schools that focus on forms and perfromance and then there are schools that focus on fighting like mine. If you want to see a fighting kung fu school in action, then go to there school and see what they are about and quit assuming.


Ray,
I did pretty well with it, so did my teacher (He was a kickboxing champion back in that Chuck Norris era 70's & 80's). Just because you don't see any good Kung Fu guys out there, does not mean they do not exist. Also it does not mean that Kung Fu is no good, you just have not seen it first hand.


Champion of what? What sanctioned event? What was his record to be champion in what year?

He was fighting in the USKF (united states kickboxing federation) He was ranked 3rd nationally 6 years in a row. Look it up, his name is John Ervin Jr.

I fought in the USSA (united states Shuai Chiao association) My national Shuai Chiao record was 35 - 0. My San Shou record was 14 - 1 look them up.

ginosifu

[Lebaufist]

Who is this guy named "kung fu" people keep talking about? He should drop what he's doing. Obviously it isn't working for him. Maybe he should try some CMA instead.

[Drake]

When you are 6'4" and 250lbs of muscle... how much skill do you REALLY need?

[Lucas]

alot when you meet a guy thats 6'6 and 280 lbs and skilled :p

[Drake]

alot when you meet a guy thats 6'6 and 280 lbs and skilled :p

I'd recommend running away at that point. :D

[Lucas]

I'd recommend running away at that point. :D

word :D:D:D

[bawang]

Who is this guy named "kung fu" people keep talking about? He should drop what he's doing. Obviously it isn't working for him. Maybe he should try some CMA instead.


how will going to country music award improve your fighting

[David Jamieson]

A wise man can learn more from an idiot than an idiot can learn from a wise man.

In fact, an idiot has difficulty learning at all and eventually is regarded as insane at times.

This too shall pass. :p

[Drake]

Never pet a burning dog.

[Dragonzbane76]

never slam your pen!s in a car door.

[Lucas]

never pet a burning penus slammed in a car door.

[Drake]

Never pet a burning car ***** slamming against your door.

[Hardwork108]

In fact, an idiot has difficulty learning at all and eventually is regarded as insane at times.
If that is true then how come they are so good at MMA?:confused: :p

[TenTigers]

never slam your burning ***** against a car door...?

[ginosifu]

never slam your burning pen!s against a car door...?

Maybe some of these guys get off on that?

ginosifu

[Lebaufist]

how will going to country music award improve your fighting I dunno, it would **** me off enough to want to fight.

[AJM]

We do ground fighting. We just don't like it because of THE TIGER FORK.

[lance]

Some say it does, some say it doesn't...I tend to think the latter. But let's talk about WHY. In some 2000 years and 300 styles of kung fu this never occurred to anyone? Seriously?

EO

Eric , do you know who Sifu Yang Jwing Ming is ? Go and ask him about Kung Fu ground grappling his 2 - students have already written a book on kung fu ground grappling . You don ' t need to go through the forms like I mentioned before , instead you learn the techniques directly . Actually BJJ , judo all was influenced by chinese martial arts long time ago .

Because you see inorder to learn kung fu ground grappling you have to learn the techniques too as well as experimenting it on a partner too . You did ' nt mention about tournament type of ground grappling , so I ' ll talk about ground grappling in the streets . If some one mounts you to the ground , he ' s probably going to try to blast you with blows to your face , so while that ' s happening , before you try to pound him too , and at the sametime use your legs move your body in a way that you can get him off you , and at the same time protecting your face . the idea is to get out of the mounted position so you can get your opponent in a spot where you can take control over him . Otherwise you still going be in the same spot . If some one applies a right headlock on you , you can use your right arm to wrap around the opponents' right arm and apply the headlock back on your opponent , and apply pressure on your move , techniquelly the pressure going be on his right arm . I ' ve done this technique myself too it really work for me . You just need to stufy how the grappling techniques work . Other than that , you can strike the opponent preventing the person from applying grappling techniques on you . You can go for the opponents' eyes , grab his groin with a tiger claw .hand ,pull his hair back . Learn chin na techniques which are design for the entire body .But like I said go and plug in with Sifu Yanf Jwing Ming .

[GruBianca]

That one was so funny I got to get back to it.

If Kung Fu was even somewhat decent at producing competent combatives we would see them.

We see form.
We see internal.
We see weapons.
We see lion and dragon dancing.
We see monks and incense


That is what Kung Fu does. So that is what we see of Kung Fu.

If Kung Fu worked its stand up seriously. Sparred regularly... we would seem them well represented in open competition, even if they were "somewhat competent" ... say along the lines of TKD.

If Kung FU was even somewhat competent at its ground game, trained realistically with resistance. Had a developed program.... we would see it represented in Grapplers Quest, and similar open grappling tournaments.

Again, we don't see Kung Fu in wither of those venues.

If a healthy population are engaged in both of those activities, a percentage would wind up in open competition. Kung Fu people feel comfortable competing in form because they're not trained to fight.

It's that simple. You can use a million words to explain it and it doesn't mean anything until TCMA produces somebody that can go out and compete with the rest of the world. Not champions of venues no one worth their salt would be caught dead at..... ie, True2Form and essentially push-hand tournaments dubbed as full contact world championships.

How do you people sleep with yourselves as night?

You are becoming more and more painful to read by the day. No,...really....who the **** do you think you are? Just cause you went out experience your way you believe to be entitled to pee on every body else head???? Why don't you just go and **** yourself you greasy joint smoker?????

I posted the below link in another thread but it seems like you did purposely skip it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaUxI6R-79o&feature=fvsr

This guy's stand up game is purely Kung Fu, Hop Gar that is, and the way he moves it's the way the style moves and he does a combo that is also straight out of a form :rolleyes:

So it seems that there are people out there testing themselves (even though perhaps not enough) so, all you have seen it appears it's not all there is to see you arrogant ****.

Oh,...btw,.. you keep talking about Black Taoist (which I do not know) but I recall he did invite you to visit him in NY, why don't you just go and "awake" him with all your "god like" skills????? Pls do that and post the video afterwards yeah..?!

Thank you for trying to awake all of us sleeping idiots you "new born Christian" in your quest of world conversion.

[Hardwork108]

I posted the below link in another thread but it seems like you did purposely skip it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaUxI6R-79o&feature=fvsr

This guy's stand up game is purely Kung Fu, Hop Gar that is, and the way he moves it's the way the style moves and he does a combo that is also straight out of a form :rolleyes:

Interesting clip and thanks for posting. Of course, we might get the usual "the other guy was a bad MMA-ist, because if he was good, the Kung fu guy would have had no chance", and the usual clueless repetitions that the TCMAs don't address ground fighting, because of the even more clueless, "I and my 'decades' of 'experience' have not seen it"!

Thanks again. :)

[Frost]

You are becoming more and more painful to read by the day. No,...really....who the **** do you think you are? Just cause you went out experience your way you believe to be entitled to pee on every body else head???? Why don't you just go and **** yourself you greasy joint smoker?????

I posted the below link in another thread but it seems like you did purposely skip it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaUxI6R-79o&feature=fvsr

This guy's stand up game is purely Kung Fu, Hop Gar that is, and the way he moves it's the way the style moves and he does a combo that is also straight out of a form :rolleyes:

So it seems that there are people out there testing themselves (even though perhaps not enough) so, all you have seen it appears it's not all there is to see you arrogant ****.

Oh,...btw,.. you keep talking about Black Taoist (which I do not know) but I recall he did invite you to visit him in NY, why don't you just go and "awake" him with all your "god like" skills????? Pls do that and post the video afterwards yeah..?!

Thank you for trying to awake all of us sleeping idiots you "new born Christian" in your quest of world conversion.

nice clip thanks for posting, the hands remind me of the little CLF i have done, nice strikes into takedowns

[Gru Bianca]

Glad you liked it. I believe that the guy in the video deserves more exposure as much as his school as they are certainly representing very well the style and kung fu in general.

[KJW]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, us Brits don't seem to use as many Acronyms as our American cousins.. What does TCMA stand for? I know what MMA is but what's TCMA? Is it "something" Chinese Martial Arts?

Kev

[maxattck]

Traditional chinese martial art

[KJW]

Traditional chinese martial art

Thanks maxattck :)

[Hardwork108]

This and the other thread here in the main forums prove beyond doubt, what many of us knew years ago, that the TCMAs address the ground scenario.

The problem, as always, have been the schools that did not teach these arts in a complete manner, including even, the striking aspects - hence we have this general cluelessness as regards the SCOPE of these rich and profound arts.

So, the best advice as always is to find the right schools to train in. This is easier said than done, but if you want to learn then you need to search!

[Fa Xing]

This and the other thread here in the main forums prove beyond doubt, what many of us knew years ago, that the TCMAs address the ground scenario.

The problem, as always, have been the schools that did not teach these arts in a complete manner, including even, the striking aspects - hence we have this general cluelessness as regards the SCOPE of these rich and profound arts.

So, the best advice as always is to find the right schools to train in. This is easier said than done, but if you want to learn then you need to search!

Personally, while I understand your point of view and somewhat agree with it, perhaps it has more to do with the individual teachers rather than the "style" itself. The teacher didn't the initiative him/herself to train in all ranges (referring specifically to grappling but can apply to other ranges as well) despite whether the instructor or "master" taught it to them.

Then this individual teaches this way to students, and so on. It takes a special martial artist to be creative with what they've been handed, and make something more of it. The sad is that this is not as encouraged as it should be in the martial arts, despite every other human activity that does.

[Frost]

This and the other thread here in the main forums prove beyond doubt, what many of us knew years ago, that the TCMAs address the ground scenario.

The problem, as always, have been the schools that did not teach these arts in a complete manner, including even, the striking aspects - hence we have this general cluelessness as regards the SCOPE of these rich and profound arts.

So, the best advice as always is to find the right schools to train in. This is easier said than done, but if you want to learn then you need to search!

actually the clip posted showed TCMA stand up, and where his ground work comes from wasnt identifed :)

[Hardwork108]

Personally, while I understand your point of view and somewhat agree with it, perhaps it has more to do with the individual teachers rather than the "style" itself. The teacher didn't the initiative him/herself to train in all ranges (referring specifically to grappling but can apply to other ranges as well) despite whether the instructor or "master" taught it to them.

Then this individual teaches this way to students, and so on. It takes a special martial artist to be creative with what they've been handed, and make something more of it. The sad is that this is not as encouraged as it should be in the martial arts, despite every other human activity that does.

Of course it is the teachers, or those who refer to themselves as "sifus". Most of them are not sifus, and have been taught a half baked empty shell version of a rich complete system - just enough to impress the non-initiated, so to speak.

I also agree with you in that some teachers may not have had the initiative (or the attention span) to train their systems completely, but then how come they were "certified" as sifus, if at all? I know that in my WC school, you are not going to be a sifu if you have not competed the syllabus that includes - ground fighting, Iron Palm/skills, etc. THis means that a lot of these people, as skillful as they may be in some aspects of kung fu, are not qualified to teach, hence their students, including the ones who post in this forum are not qualified to make sweeping and generalized statements as to their perceived "shortcomings" of the TCMAs.

Anyway, it seems that no matter what one does while discussing these things one ends up back to the Mcdojo phenomenon, again. God only knows the real damage this has done to authentic TCMA study.

[Hardwork108]

actually the clip posted showed TCMA stand up, and where his ground work comes from wasnt identifed :)

This is not about any single video clip. It is about the FACT that the major TCMA styles address the ground scenario!

[YouKnowWho]

- Many years ago, I thought the "ground game' integration was a bad idea (1 gain, 7 loses concern).
- Few years later, I thought the "ground game" integration might not be a bad idea.
- Today, I thought the "ground game" integration is an excellent idea.

Many years from today, if we all come back to this thread, we may all share our opinions differently.

[Hardwork108]

- Many years ago, I thought the "ground game' integration was a bad idea (1 gain, 7 loses concern).
- Few years later, I thought the "ground game" integration might not be a bad idea.
- Today, I thought the "ground game" integration is an excellent idea.

Many years from today, if we all come back to this thread, we may all share our opinions differently.
I actually believe that the ground game is a good idea too (just like all the other ranges), but first I want to learn it in the way it is taught in my system. Then I armed with that knowledge I may want to take my studies further (jsut like in all the other ranges, as well).:)

[YouKnowWho]

I actually believe that the ground game is a good idea too (just like all the other ranges), but first I want to learn it in the way it is taught in my system. Then I armed with that knowledge I may want to take my studies further (jsut like in all the other ranges, as well).:)
Where will certain skills come from is not important. It's the end result that count. Both the TCMA "head lock" and "arm cracking" work very well on the ground too. TCMA and MMA can both benefit from each other (as long as people have open mind).

[Frost]

This is not about any single video clip. It is about the FACT that the major TCMA styles address the ground scenario!

Umm point out where anyone, and i mean anyone, even Ray...... has said they dont, its been pointed out they address the bare basics and thats it, which is probably not enough in this day and age where some fighter now have a desire to take the fight there and real expereince in that realm, which wasnt the case in the last century in china

[Dragonzbane76]

Umm point out where anyone, and i mean anyone, even Ray...... has said they dont, its been pointed out they address the bare basics and thats it, which is probably not enough in this day and age where some fighter now have a desire to take the fight there and real expereince in that realm, which wasnt the case in the last century in china

a vert rudimentary coverage. High school wrestling programs cover more than most TCMA in the ground area.

[Hardwork108]

Umm point out where anyone, and i mean anyone, even Ray...... has said they dont, its been pointed out they address the bare basics and thats it, which is probably not enough in this day and age where some fighter now have a desire to take the fight there and real expereince in that realm, which wasnt the case in the last century in china

If you look in this very forum you will see a thread heading that says so. You can go to the Wing Chun forum and you will see another thread heading saying the same about Wing Chun, and that is not all, because people have denied that the TCMAs had addressed the ground scenario for years here, saying things like it was not culturally accepted, etc, etc.:rolleyes:

I have been posting here for years and everytime I have mentioned that my Mainland Chinese lineage has ground fighting in its traditional syllabus, I have gotten the usual "no ground fighting in the TCMAs" line.

It is only now that more and more evidence has come out, including in this forum, courtesy of sifu Mike Patterson, and others, that the MMA advocates have changed their stories to, "yes, the TCMAs address the ground, but BJJ is better", which was not the question. The question was always, wether the TCMAs addressed the ground scenario, those (and their "decades" of exprience") who denied this have been proven to be WRONG!!!!!

[Hardwork108]

a vert rudimentary coverage. High school wrestling programs cover more than most TCMA in the ground area.

And how many TCMAs have you studied in a COMPLETE manner, including their ground methodologies, to come to that conclusion? LOL!

[Hardwork108]

Where will certain skills come from is not important. It's the end result that count. Both the TCMA "head lock" and "arm cracking" work very well on the ground too. TCMA and MMA can both benefit from each other (as long as people have open mind).

I think I need to "qualify" my open mind by first studying my system's approach to the ground scenario. This way I will have less room for confusion. I believe that once I have a all round understanding of my core system, then I will be better qualified to improve certain aspects. :)

[Frost]

If you look in this very forum you will see a thread heading that says so. You can go to the Wing Chun forum and you will see another thread heading saying the same about Wing Chun, and that is not all, because people have denied that the TCMAs had addressed the ground scenario for years here, saying things like it was not culturally accepted, etc, etc.:rolleyes:

I have been posting here for years and everytime I have mentioned that my Mainland Chinese lineage has ground fighting in its traditional syllabus, I have gotten the usual "no ground fighting in the TCMAs" line.

It is only now that more and more evidence has come out, including in this forum, courtesy of sifu Mike Patterson, and others, that the MMA advocates have changed their stories to, "yes, the TCMAs address the ground, but BJJ is better", which was not the question. The question was always, wether the TCMAs addressed the ground scenario, those (and their "decades" of exprience") who denied this have been proven to be WRONG!!!!!

umm this threads title is ground grappling, not ground fighting, no one anywhere has shown TCMA has a ground game anything like BJJ or MMA, a few have mentioned it, no one has shown any of it, or can point to it anywhere,

[ginosifu]

umm this threads title is ground grappling, not ground fighting, no one anywhere has shown TCMA has a ground game anything like BJJ or MMA, a few have mentioned it, no one has shown any of it, or can point to it anywhere,

All styles from from around the world have some type of ground game. All styles may differ because of regional / cultural / ethnic differences. Fights may go to the ground in all countries, however ground fighting may not be popular or the "In Thing To Do" in every area. Many TCMA have roots in miltary style of fighting. Military combat does not encourage fights on the ground, just because of the battlefield and their rules of engagement.

BJJ is a unique version of the japanese style and is relatively new (created within the hundred years or so). Martial sport (BJJ) may be a good way to incease grappling and ground skills and puts them ahead of any TCMA that don't do any type of grappling. However it may not address some of the self defense issues that TCMA give to the student such as multple opponents, weapons etc etc.


can point to it anywhere ginosifu points to himself
I was lucky that my lineage has some ground work (not the same as BJJ and not to the extent of it either). I do know that if I go to the ground, I have confidence that I can atleast do something.

ginosifu

[Frost]

All styles from from around the world have some type of ground game. All styles may differ because of regional / cultural / ethnic differences. Fights may go to the ground in all countries, however ground fighting may not be popular or the "In Thing To Do" in every area. Many TCMA have roots in miltary style of fighting. Military combat does not encourage fights on the ground, just because of the battlefield and their rules of engagement.

BJJ is a unique version of the japanese style and is relatively new (created within the hundred years or so). Martial sport (BJJ) may be a good way to incease grappling and ground skills and puts them ahead of any TCMA that don't do any type of grappling. However it may not address some of the self defense issues that TCMA give to the student such as multple opponents, weapons etc etc.


I was lucky that my lineage has some ground work (not the same as BJJ and not to the extent of it either). I do know that if I go to the ground, I have confidence that I can atleast do something.

ginosifu

i thought you had posted in earlier threads you wrestled in your youth and taught that when you were doing ground work?

[YouKnowWho]

i thought you had posted in earlier threads you wrestled in your youth and taught that when you were doing ground work?

What wrong is that? If a MMA guy is allowed to "cross train", a TCMA guy is also allowed to do so. Many SC guys picked up some ground game from Judo guys in Taiwan too.

[Frost]

What wrong is that? If a MMA guy is allowed to "cross train", a TCMA guy is also allowed to do so. Many SC guys picked up some ground game from Judo guys in Taiwan too.

nothing wrong with it, but he is saying his system includes ground wsork and im simply asking for clarification if that was adopted in from his wrestling or always existed

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . . . .You also have to understand that kung fu is what one makes of it. If you want to evolve a ground game with your kung fu, it is your right to do so. You can take your chinna to the ground if you want to. You can take your kicks to the ground if you want to. Kung fu is like that; it is your discipline-- what are you going to do with it. You do need permission to try to create an effective ground grappling method. It simply has to WORK to be accepted. . . . . . . .mickey
The guys on the Wing Chun forum should read this. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

And how many TCMAs have you studied in a COMPLETE manner, including their ground methodologies, to come to that conclusion? LOL!

And how many HS programs have u went through to confirm it doesn't?

[ginosifu]

i thought you had posted in earlier threads you wrestled in your youth and taught that when you were doing ground work?

Yes but it is not related to the Ground Stuff I got thru Shaolin Lineage. The Northern Shaolin ground game is a bit different than BJJ or High School Wrestling.

Put that all together with Shuai Chiao and Grappling I learned from my Monkey teacher, Hung Gar and Shaolin Chin Na etc etc. I have been lucky, I fell well rounded.

ginosifu

[omarthefish]

This thread has evolved quite a bit since the point I wanted to address, but waaaay back earlier in this thread there was some discussion about "how much is enough" ground training. Someone, several people actually, were arguing that 6 months or a year was simply not enough or that it was enough and the take away for me was that there was a contingent here who were ridiculing the idea of just taking a grappling for non grapplers course. Back when that point was made, I alluded to Tim Cartmell's course designed for exactly that purpose but I got the name wrong. The correct name was "Groundproofing":

http://www.shenwu.com/groundProofing.html

I've seen him talk about it in interviews. It's EXACTLY what 99% of CMA folks need. Just the basics and with a very specific focus on escapes and standing up rather than position and submission.

Anyone who want's to ridicule the concept should keep on mind that Tim Cartmell is a highly respected BJJ black belt with a ****ing STELLAR resume in competition. Same goes for his TCMA creds.

Just sayin' ;)

[Frost]

This thread has evolved quite a bit since the point I wanted to address, but waaaay back earlier in this thread there was some discussion about "how much is enough" ground training. Someone, several people actually, were arguing that 6 months or a year was simply not enough or that it was enough and the take away for me was that there was a contingent here who were ridiculing the idea of just taking a grappling for non grapplers course. Back when that point was made, I alluded to Tim Cartmell's course designed for exactly that purpose but I got the name wrong. The correct name was "Groundproofing":

http://www.shenwu.com/groundProofing.html

I've seen him talk about it in interviews. It's EXACTLY what 99% of CMA folks need. Just the basics and with a very specific focus on escapes and standing up rather than position and submission.

Anyone who want's to ridicule the concept should keep on mind that Tim Cartmell is a highly respected BJJ black belt with a ****ing STELLAR resume in competition. Same goes for his TCMA creds.

Just sayin' ;)

actually 1 person was argueing it wasnt long enough (and even he agreed in the end), everyone else said 6 months to a year was long enough to learn stand ups, basic escapes and positioning...just saying :)

[ginosifu]

actually 1 person was argueing it wasnt long enough (and even he agreed in the end), everyone else said 6 months to a year was long enough to learn stand ups, basic escapes and positioning...just saying :)

I have not really followed this whole thread, but 6 months to 1 year of learning is ok, but you need consistent follow up practice.

If you only learn a bit in 6 months and do not practice and hone your ground skills, they will be worthless. What I mean is that you should continue your ground skills in diligent partner drills and live training. In the end, 6 months to a year just ends up being forever.

ginosifu

[Lebaufist]

actually 1 person was argueing it wasnt long enough (and even he agreed in the end), everyone else said 6 months to a year was long enough to learn stand ups, basic escapes and positioning...just saying :)

Or better said, they have a basic, rudimentary, understanding of technique and application. Its one thing to have "learned" something, it quite another to understand it. Transmuting technical knowledge from the frontal lobe to the more primitive autonomic base needs lots of repetition and practice. That is what takes time.

[Eric Olson]

This thread has evolved quite a bit since the point I wanted to address, but waaaay back earlier in this thread there was some discussion about "how much is enough" ground training. Someone, several people actually, were arguing that 6 months or a year was simply not enough or that it was enough and the take away for me was that there was a contingent here who were ridiculing the idea of just taking a grappling for non grapplers course. Back when that point was made, I alluded to Tim Cartmell's course designed for exactly that purpose but I got the name wrong. The correct name was "Groundproofing":

http://www.shenwu.com/groundProofing.html

I've seen him talk about it in interviews. It's EXACTLY what 99% of CMA folks need. Just the basics and with a very specific focus on escapes and standing up rather than position and submission.

Anyone who want's to ridicule the concept should keep on mind that Tim Cartmell is a highly respected BJJ black belt with a ****ing STELLAR resume in competition. Same goes for his TCMA creds.

Just sayin' ;)


Thanks Omar!

[David Jamieson]

umm this threads title is ground grappling, not ground fighting, no one anywhere has shown TCMA has a ground game anything like BJJ or MMA, a few have mentioned it, no one has shown any of it, or can point to it anywhere,

MMA? yeah, that's not a style and doesn't have anything of it's own. It takes from other styles, combines them, puts it in arule set and has people compete on a stage.

Otherwise I agree, TCMA in most iterations and presentationas of it doesn't have ground game. It has methods of dealing with getting taken down and how to get back up or away, but there isn't anything about grappling in most styles at all, just escapes and evasion and getting out of bad situations.

Most Kung Fu practitioners cannot deal with being double legged and choked out. It's demonstrable and has been demonstrated again and again and again.

so some guy can rant and rave all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that in TCMA, rolling on the ground is regarded as low and unworthy and is therefore thrown out with the bathwater as unworthy.

San da has throws and take downs. This is not grappling.
Shuai Jiao has throws and take downs, no ground fighting no grappling other than the set ups which is standing grappling.
Dog Boxing(di tang) is something, but good luck finding anything that comes close to even GR wrestling as far as decent attributes for the ground goes. Most of this is made up nonsense that was brought out in the early days of UFC to help weiners argue their way around. IN my opinion, that's the truth of dog boxing whether it actually is a real functional art that is worthwhile, in use and being used as a training method for real is another thing.

Bottom line, serious kung fu people know where their style is missing stuff and they go out and get it elsewhere. People whose Kung Fu consists of mostly talking about it probably won't come to that realization or course.

Is it too much to ask that people be realistic?
TCMA doesn't adequately adress wrestling. Why? Because it's not wrestling. It doesn't adequately adress the modern sportive combative fighting that we say today. Why? Because it's notthat. That is what it is and it stands alone. There's nothing stopping a kung fu guy from getting his whirls in there, but everytime someone does, you get teh trainload of whining boobmunchers telling us all that the Kung Fu guy isn't a kung fu guy and had to go somewhere esle.

well duh. :rolleyes:

lol, such a stupid and dead argument. surely we can grow beyond this continuous crap about mma vs tma?

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA does have training when you take your opponent down, you then change your throw into a lock or choke. IMO, what TCMA doesn't have is to be pulled down while your don't have "major arm control". To obtain a "dominate position" when you are in dis-advantage position, that training is missing in TCMA (at least we don't train that daily).

[David Jamieson]

TCMA does have training when you take your opponent down, you then change your throw into a lock or choke. IMO, what TCMA doesn't have is to be pulled down while your don't have "major arm control". To obtain a "dominate position" when you are in dis-advantage position, that training is missing in TCMA (at least we don't train that daily).

yes, there are chokes that can be applied, but there is no reversals and no answers to a lot of the situation. No free flow on the ground is addressed or taught in TCMA styles. At all.

Because they are not really wrestling styles for the most part.

But hey, just relax, there are no wrestling styles that teach you how to use a broadsword like a machete wielding maniac and Gracie Jiu Jitsu probably sucks hard against someone with a spear or double daggers, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Treachery, deception and pointy sharp things. Beats the crap out of learning wrestling moves in a MRSA breeding room. lol

It's all good for me. And I am being jovial of course. It is ridiculous to assume that any art has it all. If that was so, there would only be that art.

[Drake]

None of y'all have GUN KATA!

[Lucas]

http://www.liveforfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/equilibrium_21.jpg

[wenshu]

The combination of firearms and Wing Chun; how someone didn't blow their own head off I have no idea.

[David Jamieson]

Oh that whacky CLeric and his Gun Kata....


"kata"...hahahahahaha


kung fu got to dodge a bullet with that one, but..not among people who know what kung fu is.

which is really not that many people. Surprisingly I was listen to a big radio sho the other day that broadcasts to millions.

they had a pop quiz and it was titled "name seven martial arts"

No one did it and the guy that won mentioned "Cantonese" as a martial art. he never said kung fu!

one lady thought a mai tai was a martial art and everyone got to karate and judo and then...silence.

People for the most part do not have a clue about martial arts.

so, you are all deadly, just the way you are!

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoGOLmqjPl8&NR=1

[Golden Arms]

Bawang,

Just for finding that you had to likely look at more of it than I watched. You must be having a slow day at work there.

I am going to go wash my eyes out and continue with my day.

[YouKnowWho]

yes, there are chokes that can be applied, but there is no reversals and no answers to a lot of the situation. No free flow on the ground is addressed or taught in TCMA styles. At all.

I did learn one move that "may" reverse the situation. :D

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7640/changbite.jpg

[ginosifu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoGOLmqjPl8&NR=1

Bawang:

Please stop putting your Gay porn on this forum. I have children that sit with me and when I click on links I have to cover their eyes cuz you like to place porn links on here. If you like this type video, just download it to your hardrive or laptop and you can wank by your self all you want.

ginosifu

[Eric Olson]

Bawang:

Please stop putting your Gay porn on this forum. I have children that sit with me and when I click on links I have to cover their eyes cuz you like to place porn links on here. If you like this type video, just download it to your hardrive or laptop and you can wank by your self all you want.

ginosifu


Amen to that. Isn't posting gay porn to the kung fu forum a bannable offense? If not, it should be.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoGOLmqjPl8&NR=1

As disturbing and rather nasty as that video is it is NOT gay porn.

[ginosifu]

As disturbing and rather nasty as that video is it is NOT gay porn.

Whatever !

It's still offensive.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whatever !

It's still offensive.

ginosifu

And rather repulsive but eh, to each their own.

[bawang]

i wanted you guys to feel what i feel when i read this thread.

[Lebaufist]

Muddled and confused?

[David Jamieson]

It's on youtube, therefor, it ain't porn.
Also, you can't embed videos here, so you have to actually click on Bawang's gay porn links.

If you know Bawang and he posts a link, it's probably that one. lol

don't click Bawangs youtube links.

Bawang, put that sh1t elsewhere.

there, we can all be happy. :)

[ginosifu]

It's on youtube, therefor, it ain't porn.
Also, you can't embed videos here, so you have to actually click on Bawang's gay porn links.

If you know Bawang and he posts a link, it's probably that one. lol

don't click Bawangs youtube links.

I have should have known better. However, Bawang sometimes has interesting comments and viewpoints. He is just a bit weird.

ginosifu

ps. youtube is getting almost "R" rated in my opinion. You can get clips of boobies and stuff

[Eric Olson]

As disturbing and rather nasty as that video is it is NOT gay porn.

Uh, pretty sure gay men are the audience for whatever that was. Who else would want to watch it?

If bawang wants to share his sexual orientation with the world, hey, more power to him. I just don't think this is the place for it and the people on this board that are straight don't necessarily want to watch it.

EO