Here is the best evidence for lack of ground fighting in Kung fu

[RWilson]

If Kung fu had ground fighting there would be video of it. Why do I believe this? Because Kung fu has extensive YouTube vids on every other aspect: forms, dragon dancing, chi Sao, some sparring.

All the hardwork8's and all the Mike Patterson's of the world say different but unless a video is shown....

[-N-]

Youtube videos just show that there isn't much real kung fu around online.

[Xian]

Maybe I am wrong but wasnt the development of Judo at the end of 19 th century as a part of a National Sports Delevolpment ? For me its no Problem that most Kung Fu Styles use no Ground Game like maybe BJJ does. When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.


Kind regards,
Xian

[EarthDragon]

When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.

Why do you live close to Brazil? why dont you learn Ju jitsu? just becuase BJJ is a fad? no one has ever heard of it before this fad took off yet its been taught since the laste 40's I would seek out to cross train with ever style not just BJJ, it sucks for MMA

[Dragonzbane76]

When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.

So when someone blindsides u and takes u down, your KF striking will save u on the ground? So when did tcma start teaching positioning and dominant control on your back?

BJJ/JJ is not just a sports model for competition. Comp. is more of a testing ground for seeing what works. Which tcma lack in testing.

[GETHIN]

Dog style is massive in Fujian!.
I once watched a master take on four of his students on the floor and 'lock' them up in seconds.
I'm sure there are vids on u tube - we can't get that here in PRC. But even if not, Dog style exists and is a practical TCMA.

[GETHIN]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Kung_Fu

[RWilson]

Youtube videos just show that there isn't much real kung fu around online.

I have a different interpretation from YouTube. YouTube shows that there is not much good Kung fu in general.

[David Jamieson]

Dog style is massive in Fujian!.
I once watched a master take on four of his students on the floor and 'lock' them up in seconds.
I'm sure there are vids on u tube - we can't get that here in PRC. But even if not, Dog style exists and is a practical TCMA.

You know, every once and a while someone will pop up with a reference to dog style.

It is obvious to me after decades that this style is not ubiquitous and not generic like Chin Na or stances as found across styles.

It is not readily available to kung Fu really and is not for the most part thought of when one considers Kung Fu as a training option.

In a cultural context, doesn't anyone even think about why it's called dog boxing? lol :p

[ShaolinDan]

I get the impression that while there may be a 'dog boxing' style, it's more like monkey or drunken boxing--which is to say it shows up as a sub-category of techniques within various styles. When we are doing techniques from the ground (be it strikes, take-downs, rolls, etc.) it all seems to fit under the 'dog-boxing' umbrella.

[Ray Pina]

Youtube videos just show that there isn't much real kung fu around online.

Or in MMA or Grapplers Quest or other open competition formats.... or in real life for that matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If Kung fu had ground fighting there would be video of it. Why do I believe this? Because Kung fu has extensive YouTube vids on every other aspect: forms, dragon dancing, chi Sao, some sparring.

All the hardwork8's and all the Mike Patterson's of the world say different but unless a video is shown....

Sifu Patterson made it clear that HIS system had the skills to deal with ground fighting and grappling and that the reason was that in his school the instructors brought in practioners and master of different systems and this is, presumably, where the system he was taught develop those skills.

[RWilson]

Sifu Patterson made it clear that HIS system had the skills to deal with ground fighting and grappling and that the reason was that in his school the instructors brought in practioners and master of different systems and this is, presumably, where the system he was taught develop those skills.

And the video evidence is...where? Kung fu used to claim all the time it could deal with the ground aspect. Last I checked they never did bjj on the lei tai. Anyone can make any claim.

Hardwork8 makes the claim about his secret wing chun system all the time. Do you believe him as well?

[TenTigers]

also, Joi Bot Sien (Eight Drunken Immortals) form (it isn't a style) contains a myriad of groundfighting techniques, such as throws, sweeps, suplex, mount, bump/arch/roll, side control, shrimping, triangles, armbars, etc. It's all in there, albeit of course it's not as developed as Judo's ne-waza, or BJJ, but it's in there nonetheless.
The problem is, there are just SOOO many EXPERTS, writing articles, doing vids, that the general public/MA public thinks that Drunken form IS a style (Drunken Fist) and is all about staggering, and flopping around like a flounder. The problem is that these "experts," only have Contemporary Wu-Shu knowledge..oh, and whatever they've seen in movies and conjured up from their own imagination.
However, ask people who have learned the form from such systems as Mantis, Monkey, Tibetan White Crane, and Choy Li Fut, and their opinions (if they've been taught) will be much different.
Sorry to sound like HW108...but there's just too much crap out there.
And yes, youtube only proves that there is so very little real good TCMA out there.
Especially, the ones done by "experts."
(sigh..)

[Xian]

Why do you live close to Brazil? why dont you learn Ju jitsu? just becuase BJJ is a fad? no one has ever heard of it before this fad took off yet its been taught since the laste 40's I would seek out to cross train with ever style not just BJJ, it sucks for MMA

It was just an example you can add any Martial Arts which has an extensive Ground work on it instead.
I just wanted to say thats not a big deal for me that many Chinese Martial Arts have no Groundwork like BJJ, or Judo or Luta Livre. In my style Siu Lam Weng Chun we also have groundfighting but its different from BJJ as this groundfighting is mainly to get up again and not to finish the job there like you would do maybe in a Judo.
I had a few exchanges with guys who do MMA, Luta Livre and so on. In my opionion they have a more extensive training in Groundfighting as for example my style does. Lots of locks,chocks and so on, when we both on the mat there are so many positions where a good groundfighter, sees and feels the posbility for a lock or so on I simply doesnt feel. In my opionion its because of that that we are not used to train much on the floor and practice locks and so on from groundfighting.
I also have heard that besides Dog Style Monkey Fists overs some ground techniques but I have been told they are also mainly for getting up again. But I dont know how far this is true, as I have never seen this.


Kind regards,
Xian

[LivingArt]

The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.

Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.

[Dragonzbane76]

Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.

Hum, thats funny I find many applications of tcma incredibly impractical and unrealistic in concern with self defense.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.

Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.

That's pretty unfortunate that you have that outlook, considering that grappling is the best way to negate grappling. Also, just because you do not want to end up on the ground doesn't mean that you shouldn't train it in case you end up there. As I said, grappling negates grappling and rooting, sprawling, and hooking will allow you to stuff your opponent's takedown.

Street scenirio, guy shoots on you, single or double leg, you sprawl on him with your chest on his back. Now you want the situation to go away and if you stand back up he may try to take you down again. From the sprawl you spin and take back mount and sink in a rear naked choke. Guy goes out, you get up and walk away.

Ask yourself this, what is the difference in controlling with the choke or pounding the guy with strikes while sprawled. You are still down, you have vision to where you can look around to make sure he does not have friends attacking you. Like I said if you stand up who's to say he does not take you down again??

The point is for all saying the ground is not where I want to be sometimes you don't have a choice in the matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And the video evidence is...where? Kung fu used to claim all the time it could deal with the ground aspect. Last I checked they never did bjj on the lei tai. Anyone can make any claim.

Hardwork8 makes the claim about his secret wing chun system all the time. Do you believe him as well?

You need to re-read what I wrote.
As for video evidence of Sifu Patterson's guys doing ground work, I have nev3er seen any so I can't comment on that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.

Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.

You need to get out more.

[LivingArt]

Everyone has their own preferences and opinions, its awesome getting attacked for them on a message board made for discussion.

And we can all pull situational scenarios out of our arses all day long if we're so inclined. Fact is if you're not in a ring/cage/closed off area only a dumb person would allow themselves to be taken down. It doesnt come down to sprawling, it comes down to avoiding the most telegraphed move ever.

And yes, all martial arts have moves that look useless or arent practical. Thats not what this thread is about, is it?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Everyone has their own preferences and opinions, its awesome getting attacked for them on a message board made for discussion.

And we can all pull situational scenarios out of our arses all day long if we're so inclined. Fact is if you're not in a ring/cage/closed off area only a dumb person would allow themselves to be taken down. It doesnt come down to sprawling, it comes down to avoiding the most telegraphed move ever.
And yes, all martial arts have moves that look useless or arent practical. Thats not what this thread is about, is it?

http://zoomley.com/wp-content/uploads/633607470680331650-trolls.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone has their own preferences and opinions, its awesome getting attacked for them on a message board made for discussion.

And we can all pull situational scenarios out of our arses all day long if we're so inclined. Fact is if you're not in a ring/cage/closed off area only a dumb person would allow themselves to be taken down. It doesnt come down to sprawling, it comes down to avoiding the most telegraphed move ever.

And yes, all martial arts have moves that look useless or arent practical. Thats not what this thread is about, is it?

Please feel free to go to the nearest MMA gym and test your theory, please don't forget to record it too :)

[LivingArt]

I sure cant get anything past you. Im obviously a troll. Your mastery of figuring out exactly the kind of martial artist and person i am from one observation is impressive sir. You deserve a big ol' hug and jerk off session from your ego, congrats.

[Mike Patterson]

If Kung fu had ground fighting there would be video of it. Why do I believe this? Because Kung fu has extensive YouTube vids on every other aspect: forms, dragon dancing, chi Sao, some sparring.

All the hardwork8's and all the Mike Patterson's of the world say different but unless a video is shown....

Wilson, it's clear that you don't care for me much. That's fine.

I'm a professional martial artist. This is ALL I do. So I spend my time teaching, practicing and refining my skills. I have neither the time nor inclination to post things on youtube just for the sake of other's entertainment. The videos I have put up there are leader clips for DVDs I've produced. If I get around to doing a vid for the ground aspect of what we do, then it will be there. And I'm thinking many others are similarly minded.

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and take potshots at folks. But please do not imply that I am lacking in integrity. If you wish to call me an anomaly in the TCMA world, feel free. But my statements still stand in regards to how I was trained and the predominant mind set of that era in which I was initially trained. As I have said before, I was also amazed at the seemingly tremendous gaps in knowledge and skill sets in the TCMA people I initially encountered when coming back to the U.S. and I am still frequently amazed at those same gaps, which appear to be widening as opposed to closing.

I think it is simply due to the fact that many TCMA folks have forgotten their roots in terms of fighting. I assure you, I have not. Although you are always free to look me up in person and find out for yourself. ;)

[David Jamieson]

I sure cant get anything past you. Im obviously a troll. Your mastery of figuring out exactly the kind of martial artist and person i am from one observation is impressive sir. You deserve a big ol' hug and jerk off session from your ego, congrats.

I think he was pointing out the error in your assumption that a take down is telegraphed.

I don't think he was calling you a troll, just that he thinks you are wrong about take downs and shoots as being easily dealt with.

I agree that they are not easy to deal with. The sprawl really is the answer to most of those types of tackle attacks and leg attacks. Not because it's a wrestling thing, but because the applied physics are correct.

When he says go try it out in a mma gym, he's being sincere, not goading you. Any real martial artist takes at least some points in time in their training to go and test against the unknown.

that is the spirit of martial arts and how they get properly developed away from ritual dance and into practical violence.

just guessing. :)

[Lucas]

just for discussin:

there is more than one kind of shoot, and a shot is often done after a set up, so regardless of if it is telegraphed or not, you can still be taken down via set up. of course it is always up to each individual as to how they want to develop their martial arts. it is more common than ever now that in real life you will have to deal with a shoot, due to the popularity of mma and grappling itself. face it, better men than you or i have been taken down when they thought they couldnt be. thats a fact.

[TenTigers]

just for discussin:

there is more than one kind of shoot, and a shot is often done after a set up, so regardless of if it is telegraphed or not, you can still be taken down via set up. of course it is always up to each individual as to how they want to develop their martial arts. it is more common than ever now that in real life you will have to deal with a shoot, due to the popularity of mma and grappling itself. face it, better men than you or i have been taken down when they thought they couldnt be. thats a fact.

well.. there seems to be no reason for me to post now....

[David Jamieson]

well.. there seems to be no reason for me to post now....

Lucas is trouble that way...

[LivingArt]

David i thank you for your reasonable attitude, and im sure you are correct.

However i think its also important for martial artists not to assume the extent of each others knowledge. I put my opinion and view out there and was immediatly called ignorant for it. Thats basically underestimating your opponent and if anythings bad for martial arts its over indulgent ego and style pride.

I've practiced muay thai, jujitsu, wing chun, and bagua and still work bits of each into my training. If you want to use bjj in a group fight more power to you just dont be suprised when your face/chest gets stomped in.

[Dragonzbane76]

no one ever stated to take a guy down in a group of people. That's idiotic.
Your opinion is yours of course, and I have seen a shot "telegraphed", but most times it's usually set up with punches or some kind of strike to get inside. Not saying everyone you meet is a collegiate wrestler but punching someone and just expectiing them to fall over after is fantasy. Many things are put into the common shot. Biggest that most Traditional peoples miss is momentum. even with a nice clean hit delivered upon entry, the human body, usually will absorb a lot of abuse and keep on coming. the momentum carries through even with strikes. I'm not stating to not throw, but don't depend upon it. always have plan B ready.
clinch up or sprawl. as defense.

[David Jamieson]

David i thank you for your reasonable attitude, and im sure you are correct.

However i think its also important for martial artists not to assume the extent of each others knowledge. I put my opinion and view out there and was immediatly called ignorant for it. Thats basically underestimating your opponent and if anythings bad for martial arts its over indulgent ego and style pride.

I've practiced muay thai, jujitsu, wing chun, and bagua and still work bits of each into my training. If you want to use bjj in a group fight more power to you just dont be suprised when your face/chest gets stomped in.

I agree. There is a lot of assumption that occurs. I think that's the nature of a discussion board, the lack of gestures or tone etc. Some times we forget we are not speaking with each other in real time and we don't get all the rest of the communication that goes beyond the mere words part.

still, better than nothing though. :-) and yes, there are failings in wrestling and BJJ and every martial art really. Except for "gun" fu which has 2 categories - the quick and the dead. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

David i thank you for your reasonable attitude, and im sure you are correct.

However i think its also important for martial artists not to assume the extent of each others knowledge. I put my opinion and view out there and was immediatly called ignorant for it. Thats basically underestimating your opponent and if anythings bad for martial arts its over indulgent ego and style pride.
I've practiced muay thai, jujitsu, wing chun, and bagua and still work bits of each into my training. If you want to use bjj in a group fight more power to you just dont be suprised when your face/chest gets stomped in.

Kind of like saying wrestling and grappling is only good for sport or law enforcement, but thanks for playing.;)

[-N-]

Street scenirio, guy shoots on you, single or double leg, you sprawl on him with your chest on his back. Now you want the situation to go away and if you stand back up he may try to take you down again. From the sprawl you spin and take back mount and sink in a rear naked choke. Guy goes out, you get up and walk away.

Doesn't everybody do that?

[Xian]

Maybe we should point out that different techniques and principles dont apply to every situation as I dont really believe that some MMA guy would go for an rear neck choke if he is dealing with more than one guy. On the other hand I understand the abbility to get up as taught for example in my style goes hand in hand by controlling the enemey and learn to go up savely. If he is trying to avoid my get up I need to change and of course one learns at least from experience that he must watch that he doesnt ends up on the floor again. And at the end it depends on more as just principles and techniques in how the outcome is. There is execution, timing yeah and sometimes it is just luck.
My personal experience was that the more profound someone is on the ground the harder for me it is even to get up. But that I think is a normal thing as the level of fighting increases. I had some exchanges in Open Mat here in Germany. The middlelevel guys who I rolled with it was easy to get up as they didnt expected in that situation and also I could flow with them. Hard became it to avoid situations where I could have been locked. The better the guys became the sooner they finished me. That was a good experience. I assumed later that it was because of my lack of considerable groundtraining, like locking on the ground and so on. And the simple fact I took a game on who I am not used to it.



Kind regards,
Xian

[Ray Pina]

These arguments of gang attacks and guns and the telegraphing of going for takedowns:confused:

There's no good way to face multiples or weapons. There's no good way to face one man intent on really hurting you....you prepare yourself the best you can. I personally want to have and be familiar with as many tools as I can in the tool box.... if for no other reason than to know what I can face.

If you think you have a solid ground game, go test it. Join a local Grapplers Quest, etc. They're fun... at the very least you'll learn about managing your cardio expenditure. You'll be under high stress, dealing with full resistance. And if you win, you have to keep doing it three or four more times. Then you'll see how you ground game compares.

I'll tell you what, I know guys who trained BJJ for 8 months, are athletic, thought they'de enter a tournament. I warned them: these people take this seriously. They train hard. They cut weight. They prepare months in advanced..... they lost their first match and quit.

If you think your hands are on the level, go compete in some amateur boxing or kick boxing. It's that simple. That's how you see.

If you haven't gone out to do these things, you're really not in a position to discuss the effectiveness of anything. You're speculating and at best going on second hand knowledge.

Go out. See. Then say something.

[YouKnowWho]

We should

- not care about whether TCMA had ground fighting in the past.
- only care about whether TCMA "will" have ground fighting in the future.

Just share an E-mail that I received from my student about his current training with another student. It's not difficult to see where both of them are heading.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things are good here. I was wrestling with Keegan the other day. He is one of the best wrestling partners I have ever had, as far as strength, speed, and technique. He threw me with one of the best head lock/leg block throws I have had since the last time you threw me. It was extremely fast and he slung me so hard, my head almost popped off, and before I could even blink, my feet went flying over my head and I landed on the ground like a ton of rocks, flat on my back. He then landed on me, it was so fast! It was rough! We were working throws + finish on the ground, and he put a good arm bar on me from headlock that almost popped my arm. It was a great day, for sure! We battled back and forth for a long time. We fight like a couple of mothers-in-laws, so it is tons of fun. His head lock series is going good, he is getting very proficient in this. I have noticed that high level wrestlers and fighters who know throws very well are the only guys who develop this type of skill. This ability is very rare in other people. It seems that it's not a thing that happens with out years of training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We fight like a couple of mothers-in-laws

Too freaking awesome !:D