Observations on a shuai jiao clip

[Taixuquan99]

Share three specific technical observations on this clip, observations that are useful for a kung fu player reading this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqW67992Yw

My three:

1) I like watching SJ and judo clips, because there is a lot more use of the hooking and sweeping footworks that are common in kung fu, and so it's interesting to see how, when the grip makes the two very close, they seek to keep their legs out of range. This clip is typical in that sense.

2) It's great to see how, until someone falls, in both SJ and judo clips, the game is still on. There's a number of times in this clip that one contender has the beginning of something, but his opponent hooks his leg, hold on, and then reverses.

3) I like watching the gripwork at play in SJ, the shorter jackets makes it interesting to compare with judo. I may be mistaken, but it seems like some SJ players mess around with holding their opponent away from them before coming in.

[YouKnowWho]

it seems like some SJ players mess around with holding their opponent away from them before coming in.

That's correct observation. In SC(SJ), you try to play with your opponent's wrists first. When the chance arrive, you move into his elbow, and then move into his neck, or his waist (depend on your height). You try to move in step by step. When you feel anything unfortable, you break your opponent's grips, move out, and start all over again.

[Dragonzbane76]

Was a nice reversal for the double leg dump the one guy did.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Share three specific technical observations on this clip, observations that are useful for a kung fu player reading this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqW67992Yw

My three:

1) I like watching SJ and judo clips, because there is a lot more use of the hooking and sweeping footworks that are common in kung fu, and so it's interesting to see how, when the grip makes the two very close, they seek to keep their legs out of range. This clip is typical in that sense.

2) It's great to see how, until someone falls, in both SJ and judo clips, the game is still on. There's a number of times in this clip that one contender has the beginning of something, but his opponent hooks his leg, hold on, and then reverses.

3) I like watching the gripwork at play in SJ, the shorter jackets makes it interesting to compare with judo. I may be mistaken, but it seems like some SJ players mess around with holding their opponent away from them before coming in.

Leg hooks, donkey and stomp kicks, and reeps and sweeps are all an important part of control and upsetting your opponent's balance in CMA. It is easy to see how this was added to many Kung Fu systems that were influenced by Shuai Jiao. By the same token, Judokas do this also as you pointed out. As I said, when you upset your opponent's balance and root the set up for the throw becomes much more natural.:)

[YouKnowWho]

He used "single leg" at 0.09 and 1.27. Compare the SC "single leg" and wrestling "single leg", what's the difference between 2 different approaches do you guys think?

- The SC guy uses one hand to grab the leading leg and use the other hand to push the shoulder.
- The wrestler uses both hands to grab the leading leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqW67992Yw

[Lucas]

while one version gives you more control over the leg itself, and less chance of the person being able to free their leg, the other version disrupts the balance more severly but allows a greater chance for the person to free themselves. i think both methods are good, and more a matter of personal preference or training history than anything else.

[Frost]

He used "single leg" at 0.09 and 1.27. Compare the SC "single leg" and wrestling "single leg", what's the difference between 2 different approaches do you guys think?

- The SC guy uses one hand to grab the leading leg and use the other hand to push the shoulder.
- The wrestler uses both hands to grab the leading leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqW67992Yw

0.09 looked like a simple knee tap and run down, 1.27 looks like it would be hard to get without the jacket to hold, first one you could hit with and underhook i do it all the time

honestly in wrestling without the gi top i dont think you would be able to hit the second one unless the guys of balance and then its iffy his hands would be in defending the hit and he wuld have too much weight on the leg just to lift it with a single arm, wrestling uses a stiff arm to take down off a single, but first you have to get the leg, and then swtich see following clip at the start for how to get the leg and about 3.17 for the stiff arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuJF03BfkU4&feature=related

[YouKnowWho]

0.09 looked like a simple knee tap and run down, 1.27 looks like it would be hard to get without the jacket to hold,...
Agree with you 100% there. I like the word that you use, "simple knee tap and run down". That's exactly the SC "knee seize" does. Since SC doesn't have the wrestling type of "single leg", I always compare SC "knee seize" with the wrestling "single leg". SC "single leg" is to lift your opponent's body over your head and then throw him behind you, or to pick his body up horizontally and throw him in front of you. It requires a lift motion.

The jacket may change the game completely. Without jack, it's difficult to "pull". Without pulling, it's difficult to borrow your opponent's backward resistence force. This is the major problem when you change from jacket wrestling to no jacket wrestling. You just have to find a new way to "pull".

[Frost]

Agree with you 100% there. I like the word that you use, "simple knee tap and run down". That's exactly the SC "knee seize" does. Since SC doesn't have the wrestling type of "single leg", I always compare SC "knee seize" with the wrestling "single leg". SC "single leg" is to lift your opponent's body over your head and then throw him behind you, or to pick his body up horizontally and throw him in front of you. It requires a lift motion.

The jacket may change the game completely. Without jack, it's difficult to "pull". Without pulling, it's difficult to borrow your opponent's backward resistence force. This is the major problem when you change from jacket wrestling to no jacket wrestling. You just have to find a new way to "pull".

hence non jacket you have to use your whole body to get the weight off the leg, as you say you cant do it like SC because they are not wearing a jacket, you can move someone around with an underhook but you are that much closer that when you go for the legs you have to go with both arms because if you keep the underhook and try for the leg with the other arms you at that range leave yourself open to a lot of trouble you are too close to be that structurally weak

[YouKnowWho]

you can move someone around with an underhook but you are that much closer that when you go for the legs you have to go with both arms because if you keep the underhook and try for the leg with the other arms you at that range leave yourself open to a lot of trouble you are too close to be that structurally weak
The underhook is not the best way to move your opponent around. There are better ways just for that purpose.

If you can get underhook, you no longer need to move your opponent around. You are there already. When you are in underhook position, you can do a lot of throws such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, spring, knee seize, inner hook, outer hook, shin bite, inner heel sweep, ... You don't need to depend on your single leg any more.

You use single leg when you are facing to your opponent (non-body contact throw). When you get underhook, you can turn your back to your opponent (body contact throw). You have just entered a different door that will require different tools from your toolbox.

Most (not all) of the Chinese throws are to "use your arms to control your opponent's upper body and use your leg to attack your opponent's leg/legs". Since your leg can now reach to your opponent's leg/legs when you are in underhook position, you no longer need to use your arms to reach your opponent's leg. It's time to apply your "leg skill".

One of the "outer hook" leg move used in underhook can be seen in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eVGBLUSHf8

[Dragonzbane76]

you vid. -wrestling calls it the grapvine trip or so the generic term for it.


You use single leg when you are facing to your opponent (non-body contact throw). When you get underhook, you can turn your back to your opponent (body contact throw). You have just entered a different door that will require different tools from your toolbox

chest to chest as I presume your speaking about is the zone for line up on throw. this does require differing aspects than the outside clinch, but this is where you gain the most leverage. IMO being able to transition from outside to inside clinch (under/overhooks-chest to chest) is the hardest thing to teach people. a lot of times its a defensive measure with people, butts out and upper body leaning in, one arm plum, other on opponents hip etc. I guess it's a fear thing when it comes to getting that close to someone.

[YouKnowWho]

I guess it's a fear thing when it comes to getting that close to someone.

For a grappler, the closer you are, the safer you will feel. The fun is always at the "final body rotation - turn your back to touch your opponent's chest and then spin".


transition from outside to inside clinch (under/overhooks-chest to chest) is the hardest thing to teach people.

Is your definition of:

- outside (non-body contact) = your chest faces to your opponent's chest?
- inside (body contact) = your back touches on your opponent's chest?

When you get into underhook, something will happen. Either you will take your opponent down, or your opponent will take you down. It just depends on who will get better "dominate position" after that. The stand up game will end right there.

[Frost]

The underhook is not the best way to move your opponent around. There are better ways just for that purpose.

If you can get underhook, you no longer need to move your opponent around. You are there already. When you are in underhook position, you can do a lot of throws such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, spring, knee seize, inner hook, outer hook, shin bite, inner heel sweep, ... You don't need to depend on your single leg any more.

You use single leg when you are facing to your opponent (non-body contact throw). When you get underhook, you can turn your back to your opponent (body contact throw). You have just entered a different door that will require different tools from your toolbox.

Most (not all) of the Chinese throws are to "use your arms to control your opponent's upper body and use your leg to attack your opponent's leg/legs". Since your leg can now reach to your opponent's leg/legs when you are in underhook position, you no longer need to use your arms to reach your opponent's leg. It's time to apply your "leg skill".

One of the "outer hook" leg move used in underhook can be seen in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eVGBLUSHf8
there are other ways to move you opponent (arm dgars, 2 on 1 etc, but without a GI the underhook always for great control and ability to move

submission and pinning wrestling styles see it differently, as a submission guy i am always warily of back to chest throws even with the underhook, for me the underhook allows me access to his body but also access to his legs for takedowns that allow me to continue my game on the ground, single leg and double leg takedowns from the underhook are good for this reason IMHO

Trips are good too but you tend to end up in guard or at best half guard

[Frost]

you vid. -wrestling calls it the grapvine trip or so the generic term for it.



chest to chest as I presume your speaking about is the zone for line up on throw. this does require differing aspects than the outside clinch, but this is where you gain the most leverage. IMO being able to transition from outside to inside clinch (under/overhooks-chest to chest) is the hardest thing to teach people. a lot of times its a defensive measure with people, butts out and upper body leaning in, one arm plum, other on opponents hip etc. I guess it's a fear thing when it comes to getting that close to someone.

luckily for me i love this place :D now if we could just make a rule to start all fights in the clinch id be happy .......

[Dragonzbane76]

For a grappler, the closer you are, the safer you will feel. The fun is always at the "final body rotation - turn your back to touch your opponent's chest and then spin".
I agree but i'm speaking of someone that doesn't have experience, example would be a new student. I'm very comfortable in "close" zone. I do feel safer knowing I can feel the movements of the opponent.


Is your definition of:

- outside (non-body contact) = your chest faces to your opponent's chest?
- inside (body contact) = your back touches on your opponent's chest?
maybe our definitions are different.

outside to me = grab distance, the traditional wrestling posture.
inside to me = the distance of chest to chest where you can gain leverage or your opponent can.

When you get into underhook, something will happen. Either you will take your opponent down, or your opponent will take you down. It just depends on who will get better "dominate position" after that. The stand up game will end right there.
agree. althrough "dominate position" can also translate to the ground.

[YouKnowWho]

maybe our definitions are different.

outside to me = grab distance, the traditional wrestling posture.
inside to me = the distance of chest to chest where you can gain leverage or your opponent can.

Now I understand your definition. Thanks for explaining it. I prefer to divide it into 3 distance:

- wrist play distance.
- arm control distance.
- final clinch distance (head lock, underhook, overhook, waist hold, bear hug, ...).


Trips are good too but you tend to end up in guard or at best half guard
The only concern that I have by using single leg or double legs to take your opponent down is that your opponent still have 2 free arms. After you have taken your opponent down, you still have to deal with his free arms. If you control your opponent's arms before you take him down, you will have early start for the rest of your game.

It seems to me that there are 2 options.

1. Take your opponent down 1st and then control his arms.
2. Control your opponent's arm 1st and then take him down.

Chinese wrestling prefers the 2nd option (plan ahead).

When people said that TCMA does not have ground game. The difference is that the ground game is planed during the stand up stage. In the following clip, it's easy to see that after you have taken your opponent down, you are already in the side mount position.

http://youtu.be/-YUGv13mdKE

[Frost]

Now I understand your definition. Thanks for explaining it. I prefer to divide it into 3 distance:

- wrist grab distance.
- elbow grab distance.
- head lock, underhook, overhook, waist hold, bear hug, ... distance.


The only concern that I have by using single leg or double legs to take your opponent down is that your opponent still have 2 free arms. After you have taken your opponent down, you still have to deal with his free arms. If you control your opponent's arms before you take him down, you will have early start for the rest of your game.

It seems to me that there are 2 options.

1. Take your opponent down 1st and then move into dominate position.
2. Control your opponent's arm 1st and then take your opponent down.

Chinese wrestling prefers the 2nd method (plan ahead of the game) that you only take your opponent down after you have a complete control on at least one of your opponent's arms.

theres a 3rd option use your double leg (or single) to secure dominate position as you land, it neglates a big problem in that in submission wrestling if you control an arm and fall into the guard you can still get sub'd, bypass the legs by landing in side control and you wont get sub'd, in submission grappling if i control the hips i win, arms are secondary passing the hips and controlling them are the primarly goal