Do you tan tui?

[SPJ]

Tan Tui is popular and incorporated into many northern styles.

do you practice some kind of tan tui.

there are 10 or 12 roads depending on your schools of styles.

there is also Tan Tui Men or tan tui school all by itself.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2da_YijN9U

[TenTigers]

I teach the first three roads to our beginners. The rest are if they are truly interested in learning them. The first three, I have altered a bit to better fit in with Hung-Ga.
I got the idea after seeing a Hsing-Yi Tan Tuie.

[kristcaldwell]

i first learned the 12 roads method from a jing wu school. later, i learned a 10 roads variation. i still prefer the 12 roads method.

[YouKnowWho]

It's good for beginner level training. But one can't stay in elementary school all his life. I still like to use the 2nd road from 10 roads Tan Tui for basic drill (grab and punch, kick and punch, punch).

[David Jamieson]

Yes, 10 roads from the prelim work in BSL.

[hungheikwan]

I like to warm up for class with all ten routines from Ma Zhenbang - going across the floor of the gym (right side, left side, etc.) with each individual routine.

[GeneChing]

I haven't recited it in a very long time. I still remember it well as it was one of my fundamental ones, but it fell out of my practice years ago. :o

I posted the lyrics here nearly a decade ago... (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12377)

[YouKnowWho]

If we look at the Tantui form. The 1st road from 0.1 to 0.25, she holds her back arm straight. The purpose is to develop the maximum body extention (right arm, chest, left arm are all on a straight line) during the beginner training stage. That back arm serves no combat purpose. If you do your Tantui for 20 years, will you still hold your back arm like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2da_YijN9U

[David Jamieson]

what does the method result in when you do that?

[YouKnowWho]

what does the method result in when you do that?
Are you asking me? Not sure I understand your question.

[David Jamieson]

Are you asking me? Not sure I understand your question.

Yes, I am asking if you know why the back is left extended.
It isn't combat purposed, but there may be a purpose to it that is beyond the
presentation look of it.

For instance, I learned a qigong called golden needle long ago. In essence it is for breath and blood regulation and awareness and involves holding your hands in the air for extended period of time. This in turn makes you aware of blood flow and allows you to start the regulation of it through habitualization of movement. arms up a lot means the blood flow has to go further. The body adapts and will do so. If you can keep your arms up longer, this is a good defensive result from the practice.

Over time, keeping the limbs up is no longer part of what is tiring you. I wonder if that is also the purpose of limb extension and holding within tan tui.

[ginosifu]

If we look at the Tantui form. The 1st road from 0.1 to 0.25, she holds her back arm straight. The purpose is to develop the maximum body extention (right arm, chest, left arm are all on a straight line) during the beginner training stage. That back arm serves no combat purpose. If you do your Tantui for 20 years, will you still hold your back arm like that?


YouKnowWho:

You can not take forms that literally! They are training tool, that's it. You can not look at all the postures and positions in forms and relate them to combat. Many postures or positions have other purposes than combat:

Teaching structure to a beginner
Historical / Cultural / Ethnic purpose
Performance / Flavor / Personal interpretation of the movement
Health / Qigong postition

Forms are not strictly a recreation of combat but a tool for people to use while practicing kung fu.

My personal opinion is that forms started gaining popularity when firearms took over as the main form of military combat. At this point Kung Fu Sifu's started using more forms as a way to market and advertise themselves. Forms were presented at all events, town centers, carnivals etc etc so as not to lose their life style.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

as John stated, the front thrust punch with the rear arm extended teaches the student proper alignment for the jik kuen, or jab. The bow stance is an "open bow" stance, meaning that the kwa is opened, and hips turned. The weight lands on the front foot. In this way, there is proper weight distribution, hip alignment, waist and shoulder/arm alignment. It is the "drop-step lead," as taught by Jack Dempsey....oh and Bruce Lee! :-)
It is a teaching aid.
"From the large, comes the small."
Once the student understands this, he can shorten up his stance and posture, keep the rear hand in guard, and have proper alignment, hence power generation in the jik kuen/jab.
Now, as John stated, do you still practice this once all the prerequisites are firmly in place?
I do. I use it as reinforcement.
People start to "drift," in their structure/form, so this maintains proper form.
The health benefits are also noted, and the stretching and opening up of the body's joints, sinews and channels are of great importance in maintaining health and vigor into old age.

[YouKnowWho]

I try not to pay attention on "health" and "performance" issues and only concentrate on "combat" issue. How can I kill 2 birds with 1 stone by integrating my solo training and partner training into 1? My conclusion is my solo training should be just my partner training without partner. By doing that, I'll have plenty of solo drills and I no longer need Tantui any more.

I prefer to spend my training time on the following Cung Le's combo than on my Tantui drills. The reason is simple. I can use it in combat without any modification. If I do Cung Le's combo left and right, it will have no difference from the Tantui training.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

[bawang]

the rear arm extended is an older version of chambering the fist.

[GeneChing]

I try not to pay attention on "health" and "performance" issues and only concentrate on "combat" issue.
I always pay attention to health. If you're not healthy, combat is irrelevant. As for performance, if you knew how many fights I got out of in school just by posing like Bruce Lee...not to mention that the chicks dig it... :p ;)

[YouKnowWho]

the rear arm extended is an older version of chambering the fist.

Or you can use your back arm to fight like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnpt9Op97_E

[YouKnowWho]

As for performance, if you knew how many fights I got out of in school just by posing like Bruce Lee...not to mention that the chicks dig it... :p ;)

To me, it's BTDT. :D

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8552/johnpic4.jpg

[ginosifu]

I try not to pay attention on "health" and "performance" issues and only concentrate on "combat" issue. How can I kill 2 birds with 1 stone by integrating my solo training and partner training into 1? My conclusion is my solo training should be just my partner training without partner. By doing that, I'll have plenty of solo drills and I no longer need Tantui any more.

YouKnowWho:

Think of it this way: Forms are just longer versions of drills. I have 3 versions of a basic drill depending on the student whether they are a beginner, Intermediate or Advanced.

Lets call it drill #1: Drill #1 taught to a beginner has big large movements so student can grasp the overall concept.

Drill #1 taught to a Intermediate student has medium size movements with shorter stances and quicker response.

Drill #1 taught to a Advanced student has very short quick movements with small quick footwork.

Drill #1 done by a master has no movement what so ever. Or movement so small and fast you can not see it with the naked eye. (I have not seen anyone reach this level yet, specially not me).

I try to relate this to all my students by this parable: We teach children to write with big crayons (Beginner) with big block letters on big spaced paper. As they grow and become more comfortable with writing we give them pencils (Intermediate) and the spaces for writing become a bit smaller. In high school we teach them cursive and then they learn to write smaller, quicker, faster. Moves are tightened up, advanced skills in writing are given etc etc.

The same goes in Kung Fu. I take those same Tan Tui forms and teach them to beginners. Then they go off and learn how to apply them, I modify the Tan Tui moves into smaller more efficient moves for combat. They still practice Tan Tui, because, as TenTigers states people tend to drift and basics are always needed.

YouKnowWho, if combat is your only concern then, teaching wise, after a beginner learns the set then drop it and modify it's movements to meet the needs of your students and their fighting.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho, if combat is your only concern then, teaching wise, after a beginner learns the set then drop it and modify it's movements to meet the needs of your students and their fighting.
I have students with me for more than 10 years. I have not taught them any forms yet.

Since I no longer teach forms, I have more freedom to design my own drills. In the early stage, I tried to use information from my forms as my base. Later on, I liked to use the combat situation as my base. When I had switched my focus, my forms served me no purpose after that.