Telling it like it is may have cost me a student

[Ray Pina]

I told him while training after lunch, do you like eating or drinking? ..... you NEED both.

He's been quick to pick up the hands and shows too much of an interest to move the hands, but get him to shrimp out or bridge well and he becomes like a sludge.

I told him, I'm not going to kill him with cardio, but when it comes to the ground you have to move your ass. The drills alone are cardio crunchers.

He got tired of working side control and called it a day and left the boxing gloves I've been letting him borrow behind.

I showed him, how if he can't escape side control I'm going to punish him there, shoulder plant his face into the ground, tug on his hips, give him knee on belly.... just so he quits and I can take an arm and crank it. You have to fight to survive from there. You have to be comfortable with weight, pressure and you have to have the cardio and will to endure.

Its not city college either. I would love to teach him just the hands, because I would like to have someone work them with, but it's not right. It's irresponsible to built something half way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't compromising in my teaching and yes, because of that I have lost students in the past.
Such is life.

[Lucas]

hopefully he comes around man. a person would do well by learning what you have to offer.

[David Jamieson]

Well that's one.

Just put a check mark on it.

[TenTigers]

With a professional school, you will still have 5% dropout rate.
My SPM teacher has had the same three students (myself included) for the past six years, but I have seen everyone else come and go.
Get used to it, it's a numbers thing.
Don't take it personally either, otherwise you will drive yourself nuts.
It's just the nature of the beast.

[Ray Pina]

I'll think he'll be back.

He's 14 and he's focused on doing well in school -- which I'm stoked about -- so missing a lot to study and do kid things.

He's not consistent with class but he's picked up the hands pretty well already. Gets the general idea.... which is awesome because it's not complex.

The ground is tough. Especially on the grass and with sneakers. It's not easy to replace the guard and it's boring. But I won't teach him more than Kimura from side control until he has replacing the guard down cold. I showed him how to sit out too and attack the arm.... it's not sinking in as well because he's tired/bored and he's not focusing. He quit inside.

He'll be back.

[RWilson]

I told him while training after lunch, do you like eating or drinking? ..... you NEED both.

He's been quick to pick up the hands and shows too much of an interest to move the hands, but get him to shrimp out or bridge well and he becomes like a sludge.

I told him, I'm not going to kill him with cardio, but when it comes to the ground you have to move your ass. The drills alone are cardio crunchers.

He got tired of working side control and called it a day and left the boxing gloves I've been letting him borrow behind.

I showed him, how if he can't escape side control I'm going to punish him there, shoulder plant his face into the ground, tug on his hips, give him knee on belly.... just so he quits and I can take an arm and crank it. You have to fight to survive from there. You have to be comfortable with weight, pressure and you have to have the cardio and will to endure.

Its not city college either. I would love to teach him just the hands, because I would like to have someone work them with, but it's not right. It's irresponsible to built something half way.



Teach him what he wants not what you think he should learn. He can always go elsewhere like a boxing gym.

You sound like mostly a bjj guy and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe you have limited stand up training to teach him and want to supplement with bjj. Is that the real issue? Look, not everyone wants to roll and around and hump like a bunch of gay guys. And with the way you were saying your gi smelled I would not want to roll either. No offense.

Do not make the same mistake that angered you about your past kung fu teachers. You stated you wanted to fight but you had to do dragon dancing and forms. Not everyone is a BJ Penn(bjj genius?). Different tastes in different training makes BJ Penn a great bjj guy, Anderson Silva a great striker, Chuck Liddell a great wrestler/striker with good takedown defense.

[MightyB]

Ask yourself: What are my goals, why do I teach?

Ask a new student: Why do you want to study martial arts? What do you hope to get out of training with me?

Read this book. (http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Arts-Game-Business-Arts-Life%C2%AE/dp/062040664X#reader_062040664X)

[GeneChing]

Maybe the student is posting on some forum "Telling it like it is may have cost me a coach". :p

In all seriousness, the teacher/student relationship is like any other. Sometimes you bond for life. Most of the time, you have a little fling and move on. It takes two to tango and sometimes the chemistry just isn't there.

I never kept track of all the students that left me. I only keep track of the ones who stayed. And on the flip side, I've had dozens of teachers too.

[Ray Pina]

No. The issue is, right now, stand up is easy. We're doing boxing drills, breaking a sweat, but I haven't made him go through rounds on the bag. We aren't sparring yet. It's fun and exciting and it's been taking up 85% of our time.... he needs to know how to escape side control if he wants to train with me.

When we spar, if I take him down and get side control and the action stops.... it's no fun for me. My teaching him for free is an investment in my time to train a good training partner. If he wants to learn how to fight and train, that's the deal.

He's going to eat a punch from time to time. So am I.... and I won't be wearing headgear.

He's going to be able to do this in his sleep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVDfqpIk9k .... no ifs ands or butts about it.

If he was training in a gym, he's spend 20 mins doing nothing but this with his classmates. He's just got me..... and he's going to do it and learn it or quit. Which is fine with me too. I already know how to escape and replace the guard.

My issue with my experience with TCMA isn't that I wasn't getting what I was being sold... what I was buying was not capable of achieving my goals. I no longer blame schools or sifus for not preparing me for competitive fighting. They never made that claim.... just from my experience with karate growing up, I kind of expected it.

[taai gihk yahn]

When we spar, if I take him down and get side control and the action stops.... it's no fun for me. My teaching him for free is an investment in my time to train a good training partner.
ur 38 (or so) w a lifetime of MA training, and a 14 y/o kid w no experience is the one u pick as a potential "good training partner"? did every other MA guy move off the island?

[Robinhood]

Sounds like the kid is not interested in doing cage fighting, teach him stand up skills until he is ready or wants to roll around on the ground.

If you know two persons contact interplay skills standing up , maybe teach him those first, to develop his balance and structure and keep him interested.

[Dragonzbane76]

I never kept track of all the students that left me. I only keep track of the ones who stayed.

great tag line. :)

[hskwarrior]

Sounds like the kid is not interested in doing cage fighting, teach him stand up skills until he is ready or wants to roll around on the ground.

Ray doesn't seem to digest that. WE ALL keep telling him not everyone wants to be a cage fighter.Some people just want to be able to protect themselves. Some people just want to play sunday football at the park, some people want to play tennis at the park. He has to come to grips with the fact that fighting breeds violence in some cases and not everyone has a violent thread in them.

[omarthefish]

I stumbled onto this clip the other day from Ray's class. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBibP0WpN4&feature=related

[TenTigers]

Teach him what he wants not what you think he should learn. .

My Sifu once told me something similar,
"Give him what he thinks he wants, while you give him what he needs."
This way, you accomplish your goals, without being a slave to your student's desires.

[Ray Pina]

ur 38 (or so) w a lifetime of MA training, and a 14 y/o kid w no experience is the one u pick as a potential "good training partner"? did every other MA guy move off the island?

I have three MMA gyms within 35 min drive of me.... one is my main training group but I spend time at all three. Or did until my injury.

Now that I am injured and not training with the group while I heal I have taken a student. He should be up to speed in 8 months.... I already had a couple good teenage training partner sin BJJ. Kids who were very good at triangle chokes.

We're not fighting. We're training.

[Ray Pina]

Ray doesn't seem to digest that. WE ALL keep telling him not everyone wants to be a cage fighter.Some people just want to be able to protect themselves. Some people just want to play sunday football at the park,

If you want to be able to protect yourself you HAVE TO KNOW how to escape mount, side control, having your back taken, etc.

When I'm bigger and in a better position than you, that's not self defense or self protection.... it's the bad situations you need to know how to regain or take position from.

Has nothing to do with cage fighting. It has everything to do with making the commitment to really learn or not. I hate playing guard.... my coach forces me to do nothing but guard. Months of no submissions and just keeping people in guard. If I sweep them, we restart.

My guard game is so much better for it.

This is my overriding point. Martial arts is not easy and not for everyone. If you do it with you're going to do it right..... you know why he's going to come back? Because he's already learned enough to see the value. And to see the difference between knowing and not knowing.

Playing 2-hand-touch in the park with your friends is not playing football. Even at the high school level football entails running into 250lbs+ young men full speed, blitzing linebackers, sacked quarterbacks, etc.

2hand touch, like True2Form, is for wannabee pu$$ies.... like me dabbling in the stock market with puny funds. It's pretend. Kicks. I tell people I invest:)


He has to come to grips with the fact that fighting breeds violence in some cases and not everyone has a violent thread in them.

He lives in Puerto Rico and is very clear on the fact that sometimes violence finds you whether you like it or not.... in the past month and a half there has been two murders (gun shot) and one attempt (home invasion/choking) in our immediate neighborhood.

[bawang]

sparring with 14 year old.

ok.

[Ray Pina]

I roll BJJ with 14 year olds. I roll BJJ with women of all ages.

I have yet to spar a 14 or woman.... but I will spar with my student in a couple weeks. Absolutely.

[Taixuquan99]

Unless you're the weight of Paulie Zink, sparring with a 14 year old is not exactly sparring. I can understand using a session and acting as token resistance and a resisting target, but to spar a 14 year old neophyte and be actively offensive is not you training anyway.

Seems like, if you need a 14 year old to be a training partner, your training path for them should be preparing them for doing so when they're 17/18, so there's plenty of time to work this stuff. A 14 year old is not the appropriate training partner, drinking buddy, or otherwise for an over thirty male, outside of certain samurai literature.

Expecting a 14 year old to take blows from a former pro/semi-pro fighter is hardly teaching free.

[pateticorecords]

I stumbled onto this clip the other day from Ray's class. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBibP0WpN4&feature=related

hahaha... too funny!

[hskwarrior]

He lives in Puerto Rico and is very clear on the fact that sometimes violence finds you whether you like it or not.... in the past month and a half there has been two murders (gun shot) and one attempt (home invasion/choking) in our immediate neighborhood.

****, i wanna move to puerto rico then. In my neighborhood, there are two to three people getting killed EVERYDAY. Here, you have to be on your toes at all times because once you're caught slippin that's it!!!!! Sh1t, recently a Chef of a new restaurant stepped outside at midnight for a smoke after the restaurant closed when some Norteno's stepped to him asking "are you a scrap?" in other words "are you a Sureno?" and killed him right there. my best friend was killed while walking his dog. i see this happening EVERYDAY.....turn on the news.....everyday here. it sucks.

But, i know what you're going through. we all do, those of us who teach. We lose some and we keep some. its all part of it. Your primary focus is on the ground, my primary focus is stand up. But my students do go to the ground and try to work it out.

Man, i would suggest you get to know what your student is looking for. is he looking to become a fighter? or does he just want to learn a martial art. let him tell you what he needs then you can provide it while looking for that protege to get into the ring. but don't force what you want on him....thats why they leave. you're not thinking about them, and they feel that.

[ginosifu]

If you want to be able to protect yourself you HAVE TO KNOW how to escape mount, side control, having your back taken, etc.


Sorry Ray but, NO you do not need escape mount, side control, Having your back taken Etc.

Wake up and smell the weed you been smokin. Ground figting is a good set of skills but not everyone needs or wants to have them. Most all street fights that go the ground are over in under 60 seconds. Not every street fight ends up on the ground and the ones you posted from youtube all were over quite quickly after they hit the ground.

While most of us here realize that the ground game is just another type of skill people can learn, however some of you MMA guys think it's the only game in town. You guys need to step back and take a look at what you are doing.

ginosifu

[Ray Pina]

First, unlike a lot of people here I will post training sessions. It's easy enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj0RzpVLdE

That's our last class. About the fifth class.

In two weeks we will do light sparring. Make him move and block and feel some contact... this is not for me. This is for him. I play my little 6 year-old niece chess.... and sometimes I take her little pieces. I'm not beating either of them up. I'm preparing them for reality..... in chess you lose pieces so move wisely. Training with me you will be putting your throws, rolls, striking and defense to the test.

I used to spar with my sensei when I was 8. All the time after class. It was awesome.

It's sparring.

Now, I would spar a 23 year old who's been with me for 2 years differently. When I spar with my team mates its different than when I spar with a guy who's been at it for six months.

You're supposed to be sparring!!!!

[Ray Pina]

Sorry Ray but, NO you do not need escape mount, side control, Having your back taken Etc.
ginosifu


I do need it.... I learned that round 1 of my first sanctioned MMA match. Coach Ross's man put me in side control and enlightened me.

My master and TCMA "brothers" trained me for the ground.... we put each other in what we thought was side control. Moved and reacted the way we thought a disciplined grappler would. We even had a BJJ blue belt who was training here and there.

He had short power.... even from our back.
We had awesome low kicks and sweeps.

Most of all, we had awesome structure and could step into a shoot with knee/elbow type wedging.... grab a head and use cloud hands for a neck crank. And I could.... against them.

Take your show on the road. See if you get beyond TCMA-only events without ground skill.

[Taixuquan99]

First, unlike a lot of people here I will post training sessions. It's easy enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj0RzpVLdE

That's our last class. About the fifth class.

In two weeks we will do light sparring. Make him move and block and feel some contact... this is not for me. This is for him. I play my little 6 year-old niece chess.... and sometimes I take her little pieces. I'm not beating either of them up. I'm preparing them for reality..... in chess you lose pieces so move wisely. Training with me you will be putting your throws, rolls, striking and defense to the test.

I used to spar with my sensei when I was 8. All the time after class. It was awesome.

It's sparring.

Now, I would spar a 23 year old who's been with me for 2 years differently. When I spar with my team mates its different than when I spar with a guy who's been at it for six months.

You're supposed to be sparring!!!!

I could see why you would be frustrated with people misunderstanding you when you said that this training was for you, now that you explained that by it being for you, you mean it was for him, it's all much clearer.

Your class looks fun and useful, even if you're batsh1t crazy and vainer than Little Richard.

[hskwarrior]

First, unlike a lot of people here I will post training sessions. It's easy enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj0RzpVLdE

I've posted my focus mitt training for my new students.....so i don't fit in the most category.

[MasterKiller]

Sorry Ray but, NO you do not need escape mount, side control, Having your back taken Etc.

I disagree. These are essential skills.

[Ray Pina]

I disagree. These are essential skills.

This is the difficulty here. TCMA posters are so insecure they always feel like they need to respond to criticism and in return expose more of their ignorance.

How do you converse with a martial artist who doesn't feel its critical to know how to escape mount or side control?

That's exactly like saying one doesn't need to know how to deal with the jab and hook. Basic fundamentals. The most basic.

[LSWCTN1]

In my neighborhood, there are two to three people getting killed EVERYDAY.


what? that puts the San Fran murder count (just using your area) at over 1,000 per annum. in reality its about 10% of that city wide


Sh1t, recently a Chef of a new restaurant stepped outside at midnight for a smoke after the restaurant closed when some Norteno's stepped to him asking "are you a scrap?" in other words "are you a Sureno?" and killed him right there.

How do they know, if he's dead?

[hskwarrior]

How do they know, if he's dead?

You're not funny. weak attempt.

https://www.baycitizen.org/blogs/pulse-of-the-bay/sf-police-arrest-suspect-murder-hog-and/

Last night, two more were shot dead in San Francisco.

[ginosifu]

I disagree. These are essential skills.


This is the difficulty here. TCMA posters are so insecure they always feel like they need to respond to criticism and in return expose more of their ignorance.

How do you converse with a martial artist who doesn't feel its critical to know how to escape mount or side control?

That's exactly like saying one doesn't need to know how to deal with the jab and hook. Basic fundamentals. The most basic.

Lets break down the anatomy of street fight or self defense situation. The fights I have been in:

#1 A guy sucker punched me, I punched back closed the distance then picked him up and slammed him on the ground then I started punching the back of his head. Immediately someone started breaking us up. This all took place in under 60 seconds.

#2 A guy was beating his woman, I stepped in and he punched at me with his right hand. I grabbed his incoming punch with my left claw and immediately applied a right claw to his throat. At that point he backed down ending the confrontation. All under 30 seconds.

One of the fights went to the ground one did not.

Most street fights or self defense situations are not going to last long. Even if it does go to ground, you are not going to have time to ride your opponent, setting up your side mount etc etc.

These are sports martial art skills and if you read my post fully:


Sorry Ray but, NO you do not need escape mount, side control, Having your back taken Etc.

Wake up and smell the weed you been smokin. Ground figting is a good set of skills but not everyone needs or wants to have them. Most all street fights that go the ground are over in under 60 seconds. Not every street fight ends up on the ground and the ones you posted from youtube all were over quite quickly after they hit the ground.

While most of us here realize that the ground game is just another type of skill people can learn, however some of you MMA guys think it's the only game in town. You guys need to step back and take a look at what you are doing.

ginosifu

you would have seen that I stated that ground fighting are good skills to have, but not everyone needs or wants to have them. If you only teach young men filled with testosterone, yes you have all of them who are willing to practice ground fighting.

However, I teach everyone young and old big and small and not everyone is ready to learn ground fighting.

Example #1: Joanne is 40 and out of shape but she wants to get into shape and learn how to defend herself. She never does Shuai Chiao or any ground stuff I teach. All she wants is the kung fu class that has exercise and situational stand up self defense.

Example 2: Dave is 54 and about 50 pounds over weight. He does the kung fu class, he does light contact sparring, but never Shuai Chiao or ground fighting. he probably get hurt in any grappling class just because he is too old and over weight.

Example: #3 Nigel is 16, we do Shaui Chiao, San Shou and ground fighting. He loves it all and is a good beginner fighter.

Joanne is confident she feels good about the situational stand up self defense. I think she can hold her own pretty well.

Dave just cant grapple, he is to old and to over weight.

Nigel can crush most kids his age and size.

these are just the facts

ginosifu

[MasterKiller]

Ground figting is a good set of skills but not everyone needs or wants to have them. Just because you aren't looking to go to the ground doesn't mean the other guy isn't.


Most all street fights that go the ground are over in under 60 seconds.

That's because the guy on bottom usually gets pounded. If you know how to get up, you don't get pounded. Probably a good skillset to have then, huh?

Case in point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNYqvbDmhBQ

[maxattck]

Ginosifu, at my BJJ academy we have had guys come in in their 50 and out of shape. Some left some stayed. We have one guy in his 60s now working on his black, he rolls three times a week very Technical. Im 43; started at 40, with a bad lowerback. Im working on my purple now, hope to have it with in the next year. What I am trying to say your student can grapple, he just has to use techn, not try to keep up to the 20 year olds. Will he get subed? Of course we all do, he shouldn't get hurt though. Tap often, no biggy

[MasterKiller]

Joanne is confident she feels good about the situational stand up self defense. I think she can hold her own pretty well.

Dave just cant grapple, he is to old and to over weight.

Nigel can crush most kids his age and size.

these are just the facts

ginosifu

Let's just hope THIS never happens to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svt4ciXDmLg&feature=feedwll&list=WL

[wenshu]

Strict rolling (minus throws and overzealous individuals who try and hyper extend elbows every time they are in a dominant position) is a hell of a lot more low impact than striking or even forms for that matter. I think this makes it more suitable for older, less conditioned students.

[Drake]

Strict rolling (minus throws and overzealous individuals who try and hyper extend elbows every time they are in a dominant position) is a hell of a lot more low impact than striking or even forms for that matter. I think this makes it more suitable for older, less conditioned students.

Most people are good about not hurting their partners. And when it does happen, the other person normally feels pretty guity about it. Call me an optimist.

[maxattck]

What drake said, most guys when they have an armbar will give you plenty of time to tap. Thats the norm. Guys go hard, but with respect for training partners. once and awhiele you have a meathead walk in, upper belts set those guys straight fast. What goes around comes around. Not to say there are never injuries, it is a martial art, Injuries happen

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This question is for you guys who currently train at a BJJ Academy:

Do you feel that an adequate amount of time is spent on takedowns and throws? Of course BJJ is know for groundwork but when doing randori do you normally start standing with the takedown or start on knees, in guard, ect. Just curious?

[Dragonzbane76]

Strict rolling (minus throws and overzealous individuals who try and hyper extend elbows every time they are in a dominant position) is a hell of a lot more low impact than striking or even forms for that matter. I think this makes it more suitable for older, less conditioned students.

I agree with the above statement. It's actually less of an injury clause when rolling compared to sparring. Easier on the body and less likely to garner injury.

Some people don't want ground work. Fine and dandy. And a lot of fights do not go to the ground and are broke up within seconds. But fights are not dictated by what a person wants. Knowing you do not want to go to the ground does not mean you will not end up there. Grappling helps to maintain your level of understanding about it and comfort level. BJJ/wrestling/judo/etc. specialize in this, they understand the ground far better than any other style, why? because thats all they do.

I think in all honesty that grappling is a fear of personal space. People do not want to go there because it's a little taboo or unpleasant. But in reality fighting is not about what you want it's protecting yourself on all levels. standup, clinch, ground. that barrier people run against with personal space is a phobia of sorts and the only way to get around that is to face it.

Grappling is not about submitting someone (but it can be) it's understanding the dynamics of momentum, leverage and positioning. being able to advance position after someone has taken you down gives you a great advantage when unexpectedly entering the ground area. Being able to get off the ground and back to your feet is essential. I think everyone here knows that you do not want to be on the ground surrounded by multi. opponents. So learn it even though you do not like it and you can dictate, a little better, your situation.

[Lucas]

i personally feel judo is one of the best styles for a striker with limited ground grappling experience to cross train in if they are not looking for superior in depth ground grappling as found in bjj. you dont spend most of your time training the grappling on the ground, but you spend enough to be able to understand it, and then deal with it.

[David Jamieson]

Judo is more about throwing than wrestling. You really don't spend much time on the ground at all. GR wrestling has you spend more time in the struggle than judo.

Judo is often - whoop/bang/point/ NEXT!

really fast.

I go to judo comps when My wife's neph is playing. Kid's a great judoka.

[Lucas]

and thats why i say its a great cross train art for someone who may do something like kungfu and be moderatly equanted with throwing, and very little to none in ground work. your throwing will be worked to a very good state and you will learn how to deal with the ground.

at the dojo i belong to, ne-waza is worked 1 day every week. which i feel is a pretty good ammount of time to get what you need on the ground.

you hear a lot of kungfu guys saying they dont want to spend a lot of time there, which is fine, but you should still put in enough to be able to deal with it. we've all had those 'fish out of water' experiences in martial arts. the right judo dojo is perfect for these guys.

[ginosifu]

I agree with the above statement. It's actually less of an injury clause when rolling compared to sparring. Easier on the body and less likely to garner injury.

Some people don't want ground work. Fine and dandy. And a lot of fights do not go to the ground and are broke up within seconds. But fights are not dictated by what a person wants. Knowing you do not want to go to the ground does not mean you will not end up there. Grappling helps to maintain your level of understanding about it and comfort level. BJJ/wrestling/judo/etc. specialize in this, they understand the ground far better than any other style, why? because thats all they do.

I think in all honesty that grappling is a fear of personal space. People do not want to go there because it's a little taboo or unpleasant. But in reality fighting is not about what you want it's protecting yourself on all levels. standup, clinch, ground. that barrier people run against with personal space is a phobia of sorts and the only way to get around that is to face it.

Grappling is not about submitting someone (but it can be) it's understanding the dynamics of momentum, leverage and positioning. being able to advance position after someone has taken you down gives you a great advantage when unexpectedly entering the ground area. Being able to get off the ground and back to your feet is essential. I think everyone here knows that you do not want to be on the ground surrounded by multi. opponents. So learn it even though you do not like it and you can dictate, a little better, your situation.

Dragonzbane:
I agree with your post. Many people don't want to do Grappling because it invades their personal space and comfort zone. I have grappled since the age of 12, so I am comfortable in this range. I want everyone to practice Shuai Chiao and engage in some of the ground work I teach but, it is not their bag so I leave it alone.

You know I have tried with all my students to push them towards SC, but only a few follow that path. I have another student Veronica (she is 57), I have tried to ease her into some ground work with the high school wrestling styles down position. After 1 time she said no more, it was not for her so what do I do with her? kick her out of my school cuz she does not like ground stuff. No... I do my best to give as much advise about grappling and what happens when a rapist or mugger gets in close.

ginosifu

[maxattck]

To iron eagle, the training varies at the acedmey i train at. from starting on your feet to starting on the ground with of course specific work like one guy starting with his open guard, and grips ect. We work it all. A typical class might have takedown drills, start again after takedown, then to passing guard stuff, to final rolling from the knees. Depends what the professor whant to work, what he see where lacking as a group (last few weeks its been open guard), and of course is there a tournament coming. If there is we start standing when we roll. Luckly we have a few ex and current college wrestlers, their takedowns are amazing. How quick they can change levels, and shoot, and how forceful they come in. Always with control, just another league from my takedowns.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

To iron eagle, the training varies at the acedmey i train at. from starting on your feet to starting on the ground with of course specific work like one guy starting with his open guard, and grips ect. We work it all. A typical class might have takedown drills, start again after takedown, then to passing guard stuff, to final rolling from the knees. Depends what the professor whant to work, what he see where lacking as a group (last few weeks its been open guard), and of course is there a tournament coming. If there is we start standing when we roll. Luckly we have a few ex and current college wrestlers, their takedowns are amazing. How quick they can change levels, and shoot, and how forceful they come in. Always with control, just another league from my takedowns.

Sounds great, man!! If you can stuff and negate a college wrestler's takedown, you can counter **** near anyone's takedowns!!

Which brings me to another point Lucas brought up. I would add wrestling to martial arts good for Kung Fu guys to cross train in, simply for takedowns, movement on the ground, and countering. Like I said, if you can stuff a high level wrestler's takedown, you can stop most other grapplers.

@ Gino

I am fortunate in that the females in our class are very open to learning grappling, many are not as it can be seen as intimate and close quarter but myself and the other instructor stress the importance of learning it, particualry for self-defense and rape prevention for women.

[Ray Pina]

There were so many wrong generalizations made it's pointless to try and address them all but to keep things simple:

on any given training night the end of class will involve free play from either the standing, kneeling, or someone in a set position (guard, side control etc.) Just to mix it up, and to force everyone to work positions they might not like.

If we start standing and you pull guard, that's considered a loss and you restart.


Judo has a very good ground game. Similar to BJJ but with different emphasis due to their rule sets. But they have it and train it.

There's no comparison to free rolling with full resistance against class mates and doing form or line drills. If you're doing serious rounds of mit work, maybe there's a cardio comparison.

The fitness level of a mid-range, moderately competitive BJJer, say purple belt, is high. More importantly, they have learned to manage their energy expenditure under duress.

Fights start in many ways an wind up in many places. To prepare for a certain type of fight/war is like only having an air force because you don't feel like fighting at sea or on land.

Truth is, one supports the other.

Kung Fu's hands haven't done anything to distinguish them in open competition.... and there is no ground game. For Kung Fu to be competitive it needs to change the way it trains its stand up game and learn a ground game.

This will not happen because of the type people that populate the system and their fantasy-like mindset. If they wanted reality they'd join a gym, not a kwoon.

[hskwarrior]

Kung Fu's hands haven't done anything to distinguish them in open competition.... and there is no ground game. For Kung Fu to be competitive it needs to change the way it trains its stand up game and learn a ground game.

Dang man, you're like a broken record.

[Golden Arms]

Kung Fu's hands haven't done anything to distinguish them in open competition....

This will not happen because of the type people that populate the system and their fantasy-like mindset. If they wanted reality they'd join a gym, not a kwoon.

I would save spouting that type of observation for when you have distinguished yourself with your own hands in competition.

Don't get me wrong, I hate being associated with the average "Kung Fu'er" due to how many wannabe's and fakes there are out there and I feel I likely have little in common with most on this forum. That being said, in my travels I have noticed that there are plenty of wannabe's in boxing and MMA clubs as well, with a much smaller percentage that walk the walk.

[David Jamieson]

I have noticed that there are plenty of wannabe's in boxing and MMA clubs as well, with a much smaller percentage that walk the walk.

1. you elitist snob.

2. That is very true.

3. dang.

[Dragonzbane76]

I agree with your post. Many people don't want to do Grappling because it invades their personal space and comfort zone. I have grappled since the age of 12, so I am comfortable in this range.
same, that's about the age I started wrestling. I agree you can't force people to do something they do not want to do. In our class I stress the need for it and try to explain that a rapist is not worried about going to the ground thats what he wants. I find that women have a tough time with it and understandably so. They look at it from a perspective of personal, it's hard to express that it's training and not on that level. some pick up on it pretty fast though. We have a young girl in our class that is 16ish and picks up fast on it, comes down to the person really. I rolled with a woman that is a BB in BJJ at another school once and was suprised at the tech. she demonstrated. I'm a big guy 225ish and pretty built (not blowing my horn) she countered and evaded a lot of my stuff and was able to put me in position for setups. She rolled really well.

[taai gihk yahn]

To iron eagle, the training varies at the acedmey i train at. from starting on your feet to starting on the ground with of course specific work like one guy starting with his open guard, and grips ect. We work it all. A typical class might have takedown drills, start again after takedown, then to passing guard stuff, to final rolling from the knees. Depends what the professor whant to work, what he see where lacking as a group (last few weeks its been open guard), and of course is there a tournament coming. If there is we start standing when we roll. Luckly we have a few ex and current college wrestlers, their takedowns are amazing. How quick they can change levels, and shoot, and how forceful they come in. Always with control, just another league from my takedowns.

where on LI do u train?

[maxattck]

I train at socas academy, www.socabjj.com. great place to train, soca real down to earth, great guy, teachs all the classes himself, and he rolls with us. His game is amazing

[SPJ]

I told him while training after lunch, do you like eating or drinking? ..... you NEED both.

He's been quick to pick up the hands and shows too much of an interest to move the hands, but get him to shrimp out or bridge well and he becomes like a sludge.

I told him, I'm not going to kill him with cardio, but when it comes to the ground you have to move your ass. The drills alone are cardio crunchers.

He got tired of working side control and called it a day and left the boxing gloves I've been letting him borrow behind.

I showed him, how if he can't escape side control I'm going to punish him there, shoulder plant his face into the ground, tug on his hips, give him knee on belly.... just so he quits and I can take an arm and crank it. You have to fight to survive from there. You have to be comfortable with weight, pressure and you have to have the cardio and will to endure.

Its not city college either. I would love to teach him just the hands, because I would like to have someone work them with, but it's not right. It's irresponsible to built something half way.

one step at a time.

some students are slow to pick up stuffs.

In a way, learning by mistake is the best teacher.

You can always step back a bit and just explain why.

If the student continues to slack or make mistake, when he got beat up the hard way one day.

Then you get say "I Told you so".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbycvUQzVD8&ob=av2n

It is all good.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

If they wanted reality they'd join a gym, not a kwoon.

One of my students is teaching in a MMA gym. From what he told me, in that MMA gym, there are boxing coach, MT coach, wrestling coach, and BJJ coach. He is the only TCMA instructor who teaches the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game (he has more than 8 years of ground game experience).

If you ask a wrestling coach to cross train boxing and MT, it may still takes him many years to do his integration work. The nice thing about the TCMA is the integration is already there. All you need is to add the ground game, your TCMA will be "complete".

[Ray Pina]

I would save spouting that type of observation for when you have distinguished yourself with your own hands in competition.


When I win... I distinguish myself amongst the competition that day.

[Ray Pina]

One of my students is teaching in a MMA gym. From what he told me, in that MMA gym, there are boxing coach, MT coach, wrestling coach, and BJJ coach. He is the only TCMA instructor who teaches the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game (he has more than 8 years of ground game experience).

If you ask a wrestling coach to cross train boxing and MT, it may still takes him many years to do his integration work. The nice thing about the TCMA is the integration is already there. All you need is to add the ground game, your TCMA will be "complete".

Every coach will have their own unique background, you can't package them all together. I've had wrestling coaches who have won several MMA events.... I've had wrestling coaches who have stepped outside of their base area of knowledge and start talking hands. I've had sifu demonstrate complete mastery or hands, feet, throws, locks, ground-related death strikes.... against students trained to react how they're supposed to.

That is the time the student, customer, buyer needs to be aware, use their brain and even speak up after class.

I've told a coach of mine he's strictly my grappling coach, and I don't want to address stand up with him unless he has bodies, sparring partners, that he can provide at least two days a week. His guys were all good on the ground, usually take some medal in every tournament, but they didn't want to spar.... I couldn't count just on them to prepare me for a fight.

[taai gihk yahn]

I train at socas academy, www.socabjj.com. great place to train, soca real down to earth, great guy, teachs all the classes himself, and he rolls with us. His game is amazing

yes, I've heard very good things about him / his gym; my son studies out in Holbrook at the Vamos brothers' place - http://www.vamosjiujitsu.com/ - super nice guys (they study under D'Arce), great atmosphere, I like their approach;

[Oso]

Let's just hope THIS never happens to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svt4ciXDmLg&feature=feedwll&list=WL

not sure if that was child abuse or animal cruelty