Does WC have elbow Strikes and Knees

[Yoshiyahu]

Does Your WC use elbow strikes and knees?

Is there a different distance for elbowing someone oppose to chain punch?

[Vajramusti]

Does Your WC use elbow strikes and knees?

Is there a different distance for elbowing someone oppose to chain punch?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not ask your sifu all these questions?

Answer yes and yes.

[YouKnowWho]

All WC guys are good husbands. Their wives won't have to worry about them to have affairs with other women.

[Vajramusti]

All WC guys are good husbands. Their wives won't have to worry about them to have affairs with other women.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never mind the methodology- on with your survey research!!

-----------------------------

PS- Folks who don't get along with their wing chun (I do!!) perhaps might consider a divorce .
Would be fine with me.

[k gledhill]

no & no......

[Hardwork108]

All WC guys are good husbands. Their wives won't have to worry about them to have affairs with other women.

I will copy and email this to my wife. Hopefully she will believe it and I can continue to have fun. :D

[Hardwork108]

Does Your WC use elbow strikes and knees?

Yes, many elbow and knee attacks!


Is there a different distance for elbowing someone oppose to chain punch?

Of course there is. Usually when you are in punching distance, you punch or palm strike. Only when you are in range then elbows (and knees) become relevant.

[Hardwork108]

no & no......

You are kidding right? There are no elbow or knee strikes in Philip Bayer Wing Chun? :eek::confused:

[trubblman]

Does Your WC use elbow strikes and knees?

Is there a different distance for elbowing someone oppose to chain punch?

As to the first question, I dont see any knees in VT but if you get a chance to connect with a knee, seize it.

As to the second question, to quote gary lam, if you can punch why you use elbow? Don't make sense - Elbow for close distance only.

[imperialtaichi]

I love elbows. The only problem with elbows is that if you are in range to strike someone with elbows, you are also in range to receive them. Same goes for knees.

A ground specialist takes you to the ground, because thats where he is better than you. If you are an elbows expert, take your opponent to your elbow range. If your punching is better, keep him at the punching range.

Make your opponent play your game; don't play theirs.

[imperialtaichi]

As to the first question, I dont see any knees in VT but if you get a chance to connect with a knee, seize it.

As to the second question, to quote gary lam, if you can punch why you use elbow? Don't make sense - Elbow for close distance only.

1. The Tiger Tail Kick 虎尾腳 has knee techniques hidden in it.

2. Two ways to deal with the opponent. The defensive way is to strike him out and run; the other way is to bring him in, stop him from escaping and butcher him. Elbows become a very useful tool when you want to butcher him in close range.

[EternalSpring]

yes and yes

[Yoshiyahu]

no & no......

Does your wing chun have elbow strikes?

[Lee Chiang Po]

The knee is half way up the leg, and the elbow is half way up the arm. This makes them extremely short weapons. neither one are to be considered as a primary weapon, but a weapon for in very close and in situations where you can not actually do a kick or a punch. The elbow does not empart near the power you might think it does either. It is too short. In fact, it should only be used in an emergency, like when someone grabs your wrist or grabs you around the neck or body from behind. It is better than nothing in such cases, and can inflict some injury. In a close struggle with someone you can pull him down and attack him with your knees, but I would never deliberately try to move in to use it as a primary weapon.
The knee and elbow are indeed a part of Wing Chun. It has it's place and it has it's proper use. Just like the bong sao. I have seen people use this as a primary block or parry, then bring it back with a tan sao. It should not be used in such a way. The gong sao is for when your arms are in the wrong position or the hands are down in the lower gate. It is just an elbow/forearm sweep that fills in for other techniques of block or parry. The same with the dropping elbow or forearm drop. They all have a use and a purpose. For emergency use only. Knees and elbows are like that.

[YouKnowWho]

Old Chinese saying said, "You prefer to receive 10 punches than to revceive 1 elbow."

[Vajramusti]

Old Chinese saying said, "You prefer to receive 10 punches than to revceive 1 elbow."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An elbow is potentially far more powerful than a punch. And there are quite a few elbows in wing chun- using wing chun structure and motion.

[k gledhill]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An elbow is potentially far more powerful than a punch. And there are quite a few elbows in wing chun- using wing chun structure and motion.

Elbow concepts yes....elbow striking no.

Elbows tend to cut and make lots of blood.

[wingchunIan]

The elbow does not empart near the power you might think it does either. It is too short.

Your world will be really turned upside down if you ever get hit with a full bloodied elbow. The ability to generate power at the elbow without big arcs takes practice and is what differentiates the elbow strikes of WC from those of MT but the elbow is incredibly powerful, a very solid striking surface and very difficult to stop.

[wingchunIan]

Elbow concepts yes....elbow striking no.

Elbows tend to cut and make lots of blood.

Not allways. Elbows only cut when they are either targetted poorly eg around the eyes as a result of the skin being stretched across the bone on the area of impact, or if they are done in a slashing motion causing glancing blows (although again you have to hit the necessary part of the body ie the bony bits of the head). If the elbow is delivered in correct fashion with the force transmitted to the jic seen they cause massive percussive trauma which often results in knockouts and broken bones (from experience)

[k gledhill]

Not allways. Elbows only cut when they are either targetted poorly eg around the eyes as a result of the skin being stretched across the bone on the area of impact, or if they are done in a slashing motion causing glancing blows (although again you have to hit the necessary part of the body ie the bony bits of the head). If the elbow is delivered in correct fashion with the force transmitted to the jic seen they cause massive percussive trauma which often results in knockouts and broken bones (from experience)

VT doesnt do elbow strikes.... clothing also inhibits them. Please dont tell me elbow strikes are in Bil Gee either. There is no elbow strike in SLT :D

[wingchunIan]

VT doesnt do elbow strikes.... clothing also inhibits them.
Only if you are wearing a straight jacket, in which case throwing punches is also pretty difficult so I'd suggest avoiding them.


Please dont tell me elbow strikes are in Bil Gee either. There is no elbow strike in SLT :D
To my understanding the kup jarn movement in BJ is not intended as an elbow strike so to that extent you might be correct. However prior to the 1950's Ip Man practised and taught BJ with three types of elbow strike included. It was only later that he replaced them all with kup jarn. I was taught that his reasoning was because the kup jarn movement is the more difficult and therefore its practise and perfection would by default hone the other elbow techniques.

[Vajramusti]

As expected- varieties of answers on elbows.
I am no missionary- basically observe and compare and occasionally get a rare insight.

FWIW-- wing chun structure and dynamics results in quite an arsenal od wlbows for close quarter work.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Only if you are wearing a straight jacket, in which case throwing punches is also pretty difficult so I'd suggest avoiding them.


To my understanding the kup jarn movement in BJ is not intended as an elbow strike so to that extent you might be correct. However prior to the 1950's Ip Man practised and taught BJ with three types of elbow strike included. It was only later that he replaced them all with kup jarn. I was taught that his reasoning was because the kup jarn movement is the more difficult and therefore its practise and perfection would by default hone the other elbow techniques.

BDElbow is breaking from grabs ...even with back against a wall
Its easy to release yourself, regardless of opppnents strength

[trubblman]

VT doesnt do elbow strikes.... clothing also inhibits them. Please dont tell me elbow strikes are in Bil Gee either. There is no elbow strike in SLT :D

How is it possible then that Gary Lam who is in WSL lineage clearly demoes elbow strikes?

[wingchunIan]

BDElbow is breaking from grabs ...even with back against a wall
Its easy to release yourself, regardless of opppnents strength

There are many applications of almost every movement in all of the forms, if you're not careful mate you'll end up sounding like one of the if they do technique X then I do move Y brigade:p

[trubblman]

Your world will be really turned upside down if you ever get hit with a full bloodied elbow. The ability to generate power at the elbow without big arcs takes practice and is what differentiates the elbow strikes of WC from those of MT but the elbow is incredibly powerful, a very solid striking surface and very difficult to stop.

Agreed: one of my FMA classmates was hit by accident in the eye socket by an elbow of his friend who does some sort of Thai martial art with elbows and knees, muay boran I think it is called. That resulted in a fractured eye socket. What was remarkable to me was how little force was actually applied; they were just playing around. It seems to me the elbow and the knee are 2 very big hard bones, driven by the back and the legs which are the 2 largest muscle groups.

[k gledhill]

Gary lam does his own thing....takedowns,etc....if he wants to elbow its his business.
I knocked a guy out cold with an elbow to the face ( more like a lan sao ) stepping into him in a real bar fight.....still not Ving Tsun..:) I should have just punched him....
I have scars from being cut by elbows....I lost blood but not conciousness.

[trubblman]

Gary lam does his own thing....

I d be more inclined to agree with his interpretation. I have seen some of those grainy WSL vdos on youtube where I saw him apply an elbow to the opponent's chest. I am not WSL lineage but my teacher believes in elbows also. It seems to fit in naturally.

[k gledhill]

I d be more inclined to agree with his interpretation. I have seen some of those grainy WSL vdos on youtube where I saw him apply an elbow to the opponent's chest. I am not WSL lineage but my teacher believes in elbows also. It seems to fit in naturally.

I dont want to be in a position that I need elbows.......

[trubblman]

I dont want to be in a position that I need elbows.......

I feel you on that but I think the only position that you wouldn't need to use elbows is to avoid a fight (:) to paraphrase you)

[k gledhill]

I feel you on that but I think the only position that you wouldn't need to use elbows is to avoid a fight (:) to paraphrase you)

Hah ! Avoid a fight , ; )....i was shown the vt bg elbows as an elbow block if you are attacked by elbows by my old sifu.
The lifting elbow coverss an incoming elbow...

[trubblman]

Hah ! Avoid a fight , ; )....i was shown the vt bg elbows as an elbow block if you are attacked by elbows by my old sifu.
The lifting elbow coverss an incoming elbow...

Yes, I believe that most VT actions have more than 1 application. In addition, one of the kuen kuit does mention elbow strike: The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.

[mjw]

When too close to punch you palm when too close to palm you elbow and yes if you are close you knee.

[k gledhill]

When too close to punch you palm when too close to palm you elbow and yes if you are close you knee.

Dont forget the VT headbutt for those upclose and clinched moments...:rolleyes: and, sigh, yes I have also used headbutts...

[trubblman]

Dont forget the VT headbutt for those upclose and clinched moments...:rolleyes: and, sigh, yes I have also used headbutts...

Have you used the Bruce Lee bite too?

[Hardwork108]

VT doesnt do elbow strikes.... clothing also inhibits them. Please dont tell me elbow strikes are in Bil Gee either. There is no elbow strike in SLT :D

Are you sure?;)

[Hardwork108]

As expected- varieties of answers on elbows.
I am no missionary- basically observe and compare and occasionally get a rare insight.

FWIW-- wing chun structure and dynamics results in quite an arsenal od wlbows for close quarter work.

joy chaudhuri

Agreed 100%!

Also, I thought that this was basic knowledge, specially in due fact that the emphasis of Wing Chun is mid to close quarter fighting, but today's world of TCMAs is full of surprises, and most of them seem to be appearing in this forum. :eek:

Incidentally, at Chum Kiu, I was taught the 5 elbow form and then the elbows were incorporated into close range chi sao practice.

[Hardwork108]

I dont want to be in a position that I need elbows.......

Unfortunatly, sometimes our technique does not dictate our position, but our position dictates our technique. I am just saying is good to train the complete art with its complete and relevant arsenal! ;)

[LoneTiger108]

To my understanding the kup jarn movement in BJ is not intended as an elbow strike so to that extent you might be correct. However prior to the 1950's Ip Man practised and taught BJ with three types of elbow strike included. It was only later that he replaced them all with kup jarn. I was taught that his reasoning was because the kup jarn movement is the more difficult and therefore its practise and perfection would by default hone the other elbow techniques.

Great post :)

I think if you investigate further you will find that Ip Man also re-shuffled the system to be more beneficial to the health, which explains the overhead Kup Jarng being implemented in his later version of the BJ form. Better for the lungs!

Pai Jarng (horizontal) and Pien Jarng (slanted swing) are two other elbows commonly taught in my lineage, but I know others have different terms (and some have none at all!) as we also have other names too. Elbow positioning is very important fme and normally covered very early on in training, way before BJ too.

I think Kevin is using a similar analogy with his SLT. No applications, but habitual development in his BJ. Which IMO is correct. BUT just because the main purpose of the elbow sets in BJ are NOT for attack, doesn't mean that it can not be used in such a way as you gain more experience.

[k gledhill]

Have you used the Bruce Lee bite too?

Hah, only in sparring jokingly, check out paul vunak...

[YouKnowWho]

Unfortunatly, sometimes our technique does not dictate our position, but our position dictates our technique. I am just saying is good to train the complete art with its complete and relevant arsenal! ;)
Agree 100% there.

When your opponent throws a hook punch and you dodge under his hook, if you don't put hand on his elbow, he can use his elbow to smash on the side of your head.

[k gledhill]

Unfortunatly, sometimes our technique does not dictate our position, but our position dictates our technique. I am just saying is good to train the complete art with its complete and relevant arsenal! ;)

Agree, thats why refs say.." I want a clean fight, no this and that and..."

[YouKnowWho]

30 years ago, if you gradulated from college with computer science degree, you might know how to design a database. Tody you will need to know how to design website and Google search engine in order to find a job in the modern world. The world is changing fast.

30 years ago, WC guys didn't have to fight MMA guys. Today, they do. Without proper "evolution", a tradition style just can't survive in the modern world.

[Hardwork108]

Agree 100% there.

When your opponent throws a hook punch and you dodge under his hook, if you don't put hand on his elbow, he can use his elbow to smash on the side of your head.

The wisdom of adapting to the situation and controlling/briddging/protecting. :)

[Hardwork108]

Agree, thats why refs say.." I want a clean fight, no this and that and..."

Agree. That is why I never walk in the streets without a referee by my side, because if a fight breaks out, the first thing he will say is, "I want a clean fight, no this and that, and definitely no elbows and knees".....

[Hardwork108]

30 years ago, if you gradulated from college with computer science degree, you might know how to design a database. Tody you will need to know how to design website and Google search engine in order to find a job in the modern world. The world is changing fast.

30 years ago, WC guys didn't have to fight MMA guys. Today, they do. Without proper "evolution", a tradition style just can't survive in the modern world.

Of course, Yip Man did not help by taking out relevant stuff from Wing Chun, so I guess that some of WC practitioners of today have to cross train, to fill in the gaps created by the "trimming", otherwise they will need to find a WC or other TCMA school that will teach them kung fu in a more complete manner.

Personnally speaking, when a person is being taught his given TCMA style in an incomplete manner then perhaps it is not a bad idea to cross train (intelligently).

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSAczAuxtg&feature=related

is lifting knee simply to defend against a low line kick?

Or is it also an attack?

i see augstine fong using Knees in chi sau!


do you respect joseph lee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-aAiaE7tB8

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSAczAuxtg&feature=related

is lifting knee simply to defend against a low line kick?

Or is it also an attack?

i see augstine fong using Knees in chi sau!


do you respect joseph lee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-aAiaE7tB8

You really would do like joseph lee clip?

[trubblman]

You really would do like joseph lee clip?

IMO that would be how NOT to use elbows a la VT. I believe this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) gives a better understanding of a VT elbow strike and shows why joseph lee might be misapplying the elbow.

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSAczAuxtg&feature=related

is lifting knee simply to defend against a low line kick?

Or is it also an attack?

i see augstine fong using Knees in chi sau!


do you respect joseph lee?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-aAiaE7tB8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to be extensively depending on videos rather than wing chun instruction.You make many comments- but you need to know more wing chun to understand what you are
seeing or failing to see and the context involved. Fong sifu does not advocate techniques in isolation. The importrant thing is context and control is the key to context in the video. And chi sao is not fighting. But when you develop control and timing and distance and positioning and you have a well sharpened understanding of attack and defense lines and you do much good chi sao and gor sao and lat sao and lop sao, you can depend on an arsenal of techniques- including knees and elbows and shoulders and cum na. The seeds are there in the forms when properly understood.
The Lee video shows bad usage of elbows- the distance and the context is wrong.
Lam's video is better. But- elbows are not limited to that illustration. If you develop short power you can explosively use the elbow in very very close quarters even when you are barely touching the person or the person is touching you. Without proper wing chun body coordination many wing chun techniques will fail.

[GlennR]

IMO that would be how NOT to use elbows a la VT. I believe this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) gives a better understanding of a VT elbow strike and shows why joseph lee might be misapplying the elbow.

Yep, nothing wrong with Lams vid..... common sense in my opinion

But id ask, whats wrong with Lees vid?

[k gledhill]

IMO that would be how NOT to use elbows a la VT. I believe this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) gives a better understanding of a VT elbow strike and shows why joseph lee might be misapplying the elbow.

thats more like my idea too....if they grab my arm/wrist/trap elbow BG deals with it if I can just hit with the free hand...also keep in mind the forces of entry and counter angling WHILE doing these elbows , etc...why we spend so much time doing Seung ma toi ma and angling toi ma...

In the clip it might be for the filming angle but as G Lam shows even elbowing he is very vulnerable if the guy just pak/trapped the elbow with the other hand....
Granted GL isnt really hitting him either :D he would 'Fly Away' !

Lee is trying to use chi-sao incorrectly as a platform for 'suddenly' doing elbows. He tries to make the turning dynamic lan saos of chum kil into a 'move'....He doesnt share our thinking.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO that would be how NOT to use elbows a la VT. I believe this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX0JXahDZbA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) gives a better understanding of a VT elbow strike and shows why joseph lee might be misapplying the elbow.

The mistake was made by his opponent. His opponent should never grab on his wrist without the other hand control on his elbow. Also when you are in the elbow range, your opponent's striking will no longer be effective because it's too easy for you to get overhook or underhook on your opponent.

[Yoshiyahu]

So why is joseph lee doing it wrong exactly?

Beside not putting force into the elbow or using his weight or body force?



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to be extensively depending on videos rather than wing chun instruction.You make many comments- but you need to know more wing chun to understand what you are
seeing or failing to see and the context involved. Fong sifu does not advocate techniques in isolation. The importrant thing is context and control is the key to context in the video. And chi sao is not fighting. But when you develop control and timing and distance and positioning and you have a well sharpened understanding of attack and defense lines and you do much good chi sao and gor sao and lat sao and lop sao, you can depend on an arsenal of techniques- including knees and elbows and shoulders and cum na. The seeds are there in the forms when properly understood.
The Lee video shows bad usage of elbows- the distance and the context is wrong.
Lam's video is better. But- elbows are not limited to that illustration. If you develop short power you can explosively use the elbow in very very close quarters even when you are barely touching the person or the person is touching you. Without proper wing chun body coordination many wing chun techniques will fail.

[Vajramusti]

So why is joseph lee doing it wrong exactly?

Beside not putting force into the elbow or using his weight or body force?
--------------------------------------------------

The distance, the positioning ..are wrong and he is reaching for the head at one point.

[GlennR]

--------------------------------------------------

The distance, the positioning ..are wrong and he is reaching for the head at one point.

Ok, if he's only reached once what was wrong with the distance otherwise???

[LoneTiger108]

The Lee video shows bad usage of elbows- the distance and the context is wrong.

Hmm... I can't agree with that ;)

FWIW, this seminar was a brief glimpse into what guys in the Lee Shing Family have been taught. Three Sifus, Austin Goh, Joe Lee and my Sifu Joseph man all taught briefly during that day.

Personally, if you can explain exactly whats wrong with his distance and context it would be more helpful for me to try and understand what you're saying. For me, he was just showing us how to explore the feelings created in our forms. He wasn't explaining a specific elbow attack, but what happens when you 'fit-in' and just move with the habits learnt during CK and BJ. Entering from inside and outside with explosive energy. Something he was very well known for 'back in the day'! On a side note, my Uncle is now quite ill (he has been for years now) and retired from teaching. We had to work hard on him to get him out in the public lol! So in all honesty, I was just happy to see him happy.


Lee is trying to use chi-sao incorrectly as a platform for 'suddenly' doing elbows. He tries to make the turning dynamic lan saos of chum kil into a 'move'....He doesnt share our thinking.

With all respect Kev, this isn't what was explained on the day. It isn't how you're explaining here. You are falling into the same 'online clip' trap you talk of yourself! This is a 'sansau method', using chisau as a launching tool to ingrain all the variations. This is how we train dude.

And I would hope he doesn't 'share your thinking', because he only ever had one Master my friend. A loyalist til the end lol! And FWIW he specialized in Biu Jee and Kulo Wing Chun, so you will never be on his page either!! This may also help to explain his 'interpretation' :) He loves to use the knees aplenty too but that must be wrong according to you guys?

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1140973]
He wasn't explaining a specific elbow attack, but what happens when you 'fit-in' and just move with the habits learnt during CK and BJ. Entering from inside and outside with explosive energy. Something he was very well known for 'back in the day'! On a side note, my Uncle is now quite ill (he has been for years now) and retired from teaching. We had to work hard on him to get him out in the public lol! So in all honesty, I was just happy to see him happy.

With all respect Kev, this isn't what was explained on the day. It isn't how you're explaining here. You are falling into the same 'online clip' trap you talk of yourself! This is a 'sansau method', using chisau as a launching tool to ingrain all the variations. This is how we train dude.

QUOTE]

This is why I refrained from commenting. IMO people should show more respect for others even if they do things differently. Rather than what is "wrong" with what was shown we should be discussing what we do "differently" and importantly why.

[LoneTiger108]

IMO people should show more respect for others even if they do things differently.

I think this is due to your Sifu Ian, and his respect for the whole Wing Chun Family!! It's almost expected of people in his generation too as he understands the behaviour and politics more than most.

It also helps being an honest, humble gent ;)

[mjw]

Dont forget the VT headbutt for those upclose and clinched moments...:rolleyes: and, sigh, yes I have also used headbutts...

Headbutts elbows and knees oh my! :D

[Hardwork108]

:eek:I am still sitting down with trauma, after being informed on this very thread that apparently some people, who should know better, do not see WC has having elbow and knee strikes.

I ask myself, how much more is Wing Chun going to be trimmed down and standardized through clueless "interpretations" (in the name of "functionality", of course), until our art becomes nothing but a dance form of choreographed crude chi sao and chain punching!!!:mad:

[LoneTiger108]

:eek:I am still sitting down with trauma, after being informed on this very thread that apparently some people, who should know better, do not see WC has having elbow and knee strikes.

Imagine how I felt when my own kung fu uncle was used as an example of elbows in action, and then the critics roll in saying how wrong he is :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

:eek:I am still sitting down with trauma, after being informed on this very thread that apparently some people, who should know better, do not see WC has having elbow and knee strikes.

I ask myself, how much more is Wing Chun going to be trimmed down and standardized through clueless "interpretations" (in the name of "functionality", of course), until our art becomes nothing but a dance form of choreographed crude chi sao and chain punching!!!:mad:

I like to see TCMA from a different angles. Our bodies are designed to function. How many ways that we can perform functions with our body part such as:

- hand (50),
- arm (10),
- shoulder (4),
- elbow (6),
- chest (6),
- leg (20),
- knee (6),
- foot (20),
- waist (10),
- head (10), and
- hip (5)?

No matter what style that you train, your style should not prevent your body from performing certain functions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:eek:I am still sitting down with trauma, after being informed on this very thread that apparently some people, who should know better, do not see WC has having elbow and knee strikes.

I ask myself, how much more is Wing Chun going to be trimmed down and standardized through clueless "interpretations" (in the name of "functionality", of course), until our art becomes nothing but a dance form of choreographed crude chi sao and chain punching!!!:mad:

I hate agreeing with you ;)

[Hardwork108]

I like to see TCMA from a different angles. Our bodies are designed to function. How many ways that we can perform functions with our body part such as:

- hand (50),
- arm (10),
- shoulder (4),
- elbow (6),
- chest (6),
- leg (20),
- knee (6),
- foot (20),
- waist (10),
- head (10), and
- hip (5)?

No matter what style that you train, your style should not prevent your body from performing certain functions.

I agree 100% and very good point. I believe that most, if not all, TCMAs use all of those, at least in their original design.

The problem nowadays is that a lot of people are teaching incomplete kung fu methodologies while others criticise the TCMAs, instead of criticising the TEACHERS.

The situation is that a lot of chi kung has also been taken out of WC and other kung fu practice. If you ask why, the "sifus" will say something like, "if we want to relax then we will sit down and smoke a cigar".

So now we have Wing Chun without elbows and knees, as well. In some cases without any Chin-na, either. Soon they will take the palm strikes and chops out. Then they will say that there is not need for kicks either, because we can just punch people.

By the time that the students and the new generation of "sifus" realize that they have been fake out, their own "sifus", "masters" and "lineage leaders" will be seating in their expensive villas in the Bahamas, really smoking cigars....LOL!

This is getting very silly and the people who are the closest to this craziness do not see that they are being taken for a ride, or at least the person teaching them has no grasp of the complete system, nor its profound principles and contexts, except for the fact that they have managed to specialize in some limited skills and use those to impress their students and potential students, while leading them into a dead end martial path.

[Hardwork108]

I hate agreeing with you ;)

I bet you will agree with me in a few years time when I make post complaining about the fact that kicks and open hand strikes have been taken out of Wing Chun - in the name of "functionality" of course.;)

My guess is that this will be done by Kgledhill, when he becomes the head of his own WC sub-lineage....:D

[Hardwork108]

Imagine how I felt when my own kung fu uncle was used as an example of elbows in action, and then the critics roll in saying how wrong he is :rolleyes:

I think that there are so many variations of Wing Chun that sometimes, even experienced WC practitioners mis-interpret or misunderstand what they see in short clips. I don't think we need to worry too much about what could be honest mistakes. ;)

Having said that, I rather see irony when people who claim that they do not practice elbow strikes in their WC criticize the way sifus of other lineages use their elbows! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I bet you will agree with me in a few years time when I make post complaining about the fact that kicks and open hand strikes have been taken out of Wing Chun - in the name of "functionality" of course.;)

My guess is that this will be done by Kgledhill, when he becomes the head of his own WC sub-lineage....:D

I don't know what you are talking about and from what you wrote, I don't want to !
:eek:

[Hardwork108]

I don't know what you are talking about and from what you wrote, I don't want to !
:eek:

If that really is where Wing Chun is going, then I don't want to agree with myself either!:(

[Vajramusti]

Ok, if he's only reached once what was wrong with the distance otherwise???
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Glenn:
The head was not the nearest target. But of someone wants to do it that way-- ok by me.


Lone Tiger- I had no idea right then about the identity of Joseph Lee.Don't take my comment personally.

[Vajramusti]

I bet you will agree with me in a few years time when I make post complaining about the fact that kicks and open hand strikes have been taken out of Wing Chun - in the name of "functionality" of course.;)

My guess is that this will be done by Kgledhill, when he becomes the head of his own WC sub-lineage....:D
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Posts on this forum do not define wing chun.

[k gledhill]

I bet you will agree with me in a few years time when I make post complaining about the fact that kicks and open hand strikes have been taken out of Wing Chun - in the name of "functionality" of course.;)

My guess is that this will be done by Kgledhill, when he becomes the head of his own WC sub-lineage....:D

Yeah I will have brought 'guns & kevlar' into the system ....I already used VT attributes with my comp shooting. I've won practical pistol competitions too ;) . X-training , me ? :D..not to mention my sniper skills :D

Seriously, there are no limits to our 'conceptual' guidelines...
"nearest weapon to nearest target" .

WSL used Knees , elbows etc...I have used my own "mixed my stuff" in all fights, primarily VT striking. I know why not to knee, where not to...I know why not to elbow and when to elbow...but you cant teach a beginner to attack me with an elbow as the first action...you can present it as they understand the core concepts ..then I can hit you with a garbage can, a chair, throw a bottle at you before I even get close enough to kick you :D:D

When I say no & no I am sticking to the system presented to me , If I add all these things to the system , how will my students be able to know whats added or not...soon its awash with every ones 'bits & pieces' ...a melting pot of ?

[Hardwork108]

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Posts on this forum do not define wing chun.

I'll drink to that, and I don't even drink!:)

[Hardwork108]

v :D

When I say no & no I am sticking to the system presented to me , If I add all these things to the system , how will my students be able to know whats added or not...soon its awash with every ones 'bits & pieces' ...a melting pot of ?

So you are saying that you are open to using elbows and knees, but that is not the way your system has been presented to you?:confused:

How are you going to use elbows and knees if presumably it is something you don't practice?

Secondly, haven't you wondered that perhaps the system being presented to you is not the complete style of Wing Chun?

I mean, do you delve deep into the Chin-na/Kumna territory? What about Iron Skills? TCMA ground fighting? Variety of kicks, punchs, open hand strikes?

I am asking serious questions, because I want some people to realize that as much as the concept of trimming may sound cool in a business/economic setting, it is usually counterproductive in a TCMA one.

[wingchunIan]

without meaning to get all philosophical the docterine of the mean / centre line theory is more than just a physical concept. Too much trimming and valuable elements of the system are lost, but at the same time too many people view the Wing Chun simplicity and rather than looking for depth in the techniques and their applications, want to look for breadth and so start to add in things that they feel ought to be there or might be cool or different.
Adding things and taking them them away are both deviations, of course every sifu from time immemorial has added, deleted and modified either intentionally or unintentionally.
There is no such singular entity as Wing Chun, there are the core concepts but everyone's interpretations are different. Silly questions like does Wing Chun have elbow strikes are only the same as saying do you have the original Wing Chun. They are futile and only serve to create rifts. The question should be do you have elbow strikes in your lineage of Wing Chun?

[LoneTiger108]

Lone Tiger- I had no idea right then about the identity of Joseph Lee.Don't take my comment personally.

No probs Joy. You should know by now that anyone who points the finger and highlights 'errors' in things posted that were not intended to be in the public domain should also understand when people who 'were there' get defensive ;)

My kung fu uncles identity has been well guarded for quite a long time too, as has his many students. His name is out there, but not his face so much. He is a complete contrast to Austin Goh and my own Sifu too.

This is his only site up at the moment, and one of his eldest students is designing another
http://www.wingchunmartialarts.com/

[k gledhill]

without meaning to get all philosophical the docterine of the mean / centre line theory is more than just a physical concept. Too much trimming and valuable elements of the system are lost, but at the same time too many people view the Wing Chun simplicity and rather than looking for depth in the techniques and their applications, want to look for breadth and so start to add in things that they feel ought to be there or might be cool or different.
Adding things and taking them them away are both deviations, of course every sifu from time immemorial has added, deleted and modified either intentionally or unintentionally.
There is no such singular entity as Wing Chun, there are the core concepts but everyone's interpretations are different. Silly questions like does Wing Chun have elbow strikes are only the same as saying do you have the original Wing Chun. They are futile and only serve to create rifts. The question should be do you have elbow strikes in your lineage of Wing Chun?

Yes there is a singular entity ......we all have the seed to grow the same tree.

everyone of us does the forms more or less similar but with the mind in a different place...it only takes a mind shift to change the same forms into a completely different outcome as a fighter with conceptual tan sao or a guy who has ten ways to use tan sao and collect quarters too...:D

[LoneTiger108]

Yes there is a singular entity ......we all have the seed to grow the same tree.

Personally, I think this is actually where we are NOT similar.

The seed I use to nurture my Wing Chun is not from the same tree, so the trunk, branches and blossom will be different. A completely different tree!

At the same time, I think we need to understand that the tree is still a tree. That's Wing Chun imho. And if we want to see our reptuations grow stronger in the martial arts community we should be trying harder to work together, but I do see why that seems totally impossible!!

Nobody will ever be able to say I haven't tried :)

[wtxs]

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1141214The question should be do you have elbow strikes in your lineage of Wing Chun?[/QUOTE]


An better question is - your body can be used as an weapon, since you have 2 elbows and 2 knees which can be use as weapons just like your hands and feet, why aren't you utilizing them?

The primary goal of WC is to end an conflict quickly, more weapon you have the faster you can get the job done - just MHO.

[Vajramusti]

An better question is - your body can be used as an weapon, since you have 2 elbows and 2 knees which can be use as weapons just like your hands and feet, why aren't you utilizing them?

The primary goal of WC is to end an conflict quickly, more weapon you have the faster you can get the job done - just MHO.
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A good way to formulate the question.

[k gledhill]

An better question is - your body can be used as an weapon, since you have 2 elbows and 2 knees which can be use as weapons just like your hands and feet, why aren't you utilizing them?

The primary goal of WC is to end an conflict quickly, more weapon you have the faster you can get the job done - just MHO.

....which 2 will 'primarily' reach you faster with force ? hands or elbows , feet/kicks or knees ?

[Eric_H]

....which 2 will 'primarily' reach you faster with force ? hands or elbows , feet/kicks or knees ?

Where am I standing and where are you? Every tool is range, facing and leverage dependent. There are situations where one tool is a better idea than the other - that's just basic fighting knowledge.

As for whether I've been taught elbows and knees in WC? Yes, I have, from 3 lineages.

[k gledhill]

Where am I standing and where are you? Every tool is range, facing and leverage dependent. There are situations where one tool is a better idea than the other - that's just basic fighting knowledge.

As for whether I've been taught elbows and knees in WC? Yes, I have, from 3 lineages.

Which 2 will % based be the quickest with force to reach the target...? :D lets make it easy, what do guys start fighting with, elbows and knees or hands and feet...usually ?

[Hardwork108]

Which 2 will % based be the quickest with force to reach the target...? :D lets make it easy, what do guys start fighting with, elbows and knees or hands and feet...usually ?

Hands and feet, but I am sure that there are peopld who might say we start fighting with our hands primarlily. They might go on and say that for that reason we should get rid of the many kicks that are present in Wing Chun, too?

See where I am going with this?

I mean the system of Wing Chun is "conceptual", but the training provides us with an arsenal to use within the concepts. The elbows and the knees (and the feet) are part of this arsenal. If anyone tells you otherwise, then they are taking you for a ride, IMHO!

[k gledhill]

Hands and feet, but I am sure that there are peopld who might say we start fighting with our hands primarlily. They might go on and say that for that reason we should get rid of the many kicks that are present in Wing Chun, too?

See where I am going with this?

I mean the system of Wing Chun is "conceptual", but the training provides us with an arsenal to use within the concepts. The elbows and the knees (and the feet) are part of this arsenal. If anyone tells you otherwise, then they are taking you for a ride, IMHO!

We have direct kicks for a reason, they compliment our lines and angles. No reason to exclude them.

[Eric_H]

Which 2 will % based be the quickest with force to reach the target...? :D lets make it easy, what do guys start fighting with, elbows and knees or hands and feet...usually ?

In my neighborhood, guns and knives.

If you're trying to make the point that fights usually start at a distance where punching/kicking is a better tool, I could see that argument. But to assume that you'll always be starting in or always be able to maintain that range is ludicrous.

[k gledhill]

In my neighborhood, guns and knives.

If you're trying to make the point that fights usually start at a distance where punching/kicking is a better tool, I could see that argument. But to assume that you'll always be starting in or always be able to maintain that range is ludicrous.

And pitbulls, :D......no we cant assume anything, ergo bil gee..

[Mr. Chang]

Sifu Alan Lee shows how you can use perfctamente elbow on the bong sao, wing chun Applied.

http://youtu.be/6kboVW5VoI4

[Yoshiyahu]

Is there a different distance for elbowing someone oppose to chain punch?

[Hardwork108]

Which 2 will % based be the quickest with force to reach the target...? lets make it easy, what do guys start fighting with, elbows and knees or hands and feet...usually ?

Having looked at this again and having seen the logic of it, then perhaps you should just get rid of the Wing Chun punching altogether, because the kicks are the quickest with force to rich the target, compared with the hands - speaking strictly of course. ;)


We have direct kicks for a reason, they compliment our lines and angles. No reason to exclude them.

Exactly. Have a chat with Philip Bayer, perhaps you could exclude punching all together and just use the "K.I.S.S." principle.

Look, the fact is that if you don't do it first, then somebody else will do it, and grab your potential market share. :D

[k gledhill]

Having looked at this again and having seen the logic of it, then perhaps you should just get rid of the Wing Chun punching altogether, because the kicks are the quickest with force to rich the target, compared with the hands - speaking strictly of course. ;)



Exactly. Have chat with Philip Bayer, perhaps you could exclude punching all together and just use the "K.I.S.S." principle.

Look, the fact is that if you don't do it first, then somebody else will do it, and grab your potential market share. :D

We have clear delineating guidelines for Ym>WSL>PB>Me way of fighting ....its simple idea at work. Sadly many have their own ideas or for lack of them create brand new ones.

[Hardwork108]

We have clear delineating guidelines for Ym>WSL>PB>Me way of fighting ....its simple idea at work. Sadly many have their own ideas or for lack of them create brand new ones.

Have it your way, then!

I was going tell you about my new concept of Wing Chun training that does not use hands nor the feet, for fighting. It would have introduced a whole new money making, whoops I mean fighting dimension to the great art of Wing Chun, but I guess I am just going to have to sell this one to Leong Ting, instead, because unlike you amateurs, he is a progressive businessman, whoops, I meant progressive, great grand master of all grand masters! :D

Your loss $$$$$! :cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

My wing chun is better than yours because we have hamburger flipping fist!!!!

Nanny nan nah!





We have clear delineating guidelines for Ym>WSL>PB>Me way of fighting ....its simple idea at work. Sadly many have their own ideas or for lack of them create brand new ones.

[k gledhill]

Have it your way, then!

I was going tell you about my new concept of Wing Chun training that does not use hands nor the feet, for fighting. It would have introduced a whole new money making, whoops I mean fighting dimension to the great art of Wing Chun, but I guess I am just going to have to sell this one to Leong Ting, instead, because unlike you amateurs, he is a progressive businessman, whoops, I meant progressive, great grand master of all grand masters! :D

Your loss $$$$$! :cool:

My loss,:rolleyes: let us know when your dvd with all those free extras comes out .

[Hardwork108]

My loss,:rolleyes: let us know when your dvd with all those free extras comes out .

Hey, don't underestimate this concept. Wing Chun is a Central Line style and the only real and authentic central line weapon on the human body is the head.!

Who needs hands, and feet, let alone elbows and knees, when you can through my patented angling head-butts, smash your way into victory; simplify and standardize what you teach to the students; turn out new WC teachers to expand your business franchises, whoops sorry, kung fu kwoons, every few months, rather than the long, long. long, two years or so that it takes you currently, and look hip and different while doing this.....;)


It can't fail, I tell ya, it can't fail! :D

Believe me, if PB finds out that you refused this great opportunity in "efficiency" , he will throw you to the dogs! :p

[k gledhill]

Hey, don't underestimate this concept. Wing Chun is a Central Line style and the only real and authentic central line weapon on the human body is the head.!

Who needs hands, and feet, let alone elbows and knees, when we can through my patented angling head-butts, smash your way into victory; simplify and standardize what you teach to the students; turn out new WC teachers to expand your business franchises, whoops sorry, kung fu kwoons, every few months, rather than the long, long. long, two years or so that it takes you currently, and look hip and different while doing this.....;)


It can't fail, I tell ya, it can't fail! :D

Believe me, if PB finds out that you refused this great opportunity in "efficiency" , he will throw you to the dogs! :p

I will wait for your omnipotent dvd series.:D

[Hardwork108]

I will wait for your omnipotent dvd series.:D

NO way, if you want to learn my secret - no hands; no legs; no elbows; no knees; - "modern" and "functional", adapted for today's streets, Wing Chun techniques, then you need to pay serious money and take special workshops, at the end of which I will give you a teaching certificate, whereby you will become a "sifu" and join my unique organization - so, no cheap dvds (until later, that is....;))!!!:p

[k gledhill]

NO way, if you want to learn my secret - no hands; no legs; no elbows; no knees; - "modern" and "functional", adapted for today's streets, Wing Chun techniques, then you need to pay serious money and take special workshops, at the end of which I will give you a teaching certificate, whereby you will become a "sifu" and join my unique organization - so, no cheap dvds (until later, that is....;))!!!:p

Dude I beat you to it :D I have the ultimate Telekinesis VT methods !! for only 3 easy easy payments of $49.99 you can learn to defeat anyone with your mind alone, no hands , knees, elbows, feet, while floating off the ground . You can be like the real masters in only 3 weeks !! :D Operators are waiting now, really :D

[Hardwork108]

Dude I beat you to it :D

I should have known that I was no match for you guys...:D

[k gledhill]

I should have known that I was no match for you guys...:D

I even knew you where going to type that before you typed it....;):D:D Want to know how ? I have the DVD's hot off the press :D

[Hardwork108]

I even knew you where going to type that before you typed it....;):D:D Want to know how ? I have the DVD's hot off the press :D

:eek:



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