How do you spar in your Kung Fu class?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

My question is what level of contact do you apply, what level do you feel teaches you or others the best, and what kind of equipment is best used.

In my gym, I break sparring down into three levels:

1. Light Sparring-Equipment used is fingerless Kenpo or MMA style gloves, mouthpiece shin guards. Usually contact in about 50-60 percent, light contact to the head. This allows people to practice all techniques learned, including grabs, hooks, bridging, sticky hands, shirt or lapel grabs, ect. that are difficult to perform when using boxing gloves.

2. Moderate Sparring-Boxing gloves, shin guards, mouthpiece. Contact is a little heavier, with more emphasis on stringing together combinations.

3. Heavy Sparring-Head Gear, Boxing Gloves, shin guards, mouthpiece. Heaviest contact which combines elements of the first two with about 70-75 percent power put into strikes thrown. This, of course, also depends on the level the student is at and other such factors.

One thing I have learned when teaching new students is to break them of these two habits:

1. When sparring without head gear often they make NO contact as if the other person is made of glass. Some contact must be made, albeit controlled.

2. When heavy sparring, as soon as someone gets head gear on it's swing for the fences time. Making them step back and set up good combinations and technique is instrumental in getting them away from the head down, bull rush, swinging mode.

Please share thoughts and ideas concerning this.:)

[maxattck]

In kyokushin we either 70% to full contact to the body, only kicks to the head. MMA gloves and shin guards. The no hands to the head does tend to lead to bad habits though.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Max,

While not striking the head can lead to bad habits, it would not be hard for you to adjust your training to include and incorporate head shots. Kyokushin is an awesome style and produces some tough a**ss fighters! My advice is to use boxing gloves when training head strikes, this will provide you protection against bruises and cuts and allow you to go at it. I like head gear as well.

[maxattck]

Yeah I Hear ya, but the school real traditional so I don't see the head gear punching in the future. But in my BBJ academy we use the 12oz gloves every so often to work shoots against striking, fun stuff

[MightyB]

it's all no-touch kiJitsu. It's quite intense - two people face off and imagine what they might do to each other.

http://www.availableimages.com/images/pictures/2004/hero/aph_9.jpg

[ginosifu]

I run a commercial school so insurance forces us to have a full set of gear (foam head, foam hand, foam foot, shin guard, cup and mouth piece. Sparring in general in broken down into 3 categories. Light contact for beginners, Shuai Chiao and San Shou.

Beginners start out with basic sparring strategy and trying to create combos and such.

I have a separate class for Shuai Chiao. Everyone here learns either competition style or Black Hand (SC for self defense).

I also have a San Shou class for those want to get a bit more hard core.

Basically after the basic sparring we go into harder sparring (the students are at a intermediate level here) with fingerless gloves, shin pads, cup and mouth piece. This is where I combine SC, SS and Shaolin fighting concepts. Everything usually goes to tap out. Not necessarily does it always go to the ground. I teach standing choke outs etc etc.

I do teach a bit of ground work, chokes, submissions and High School wrestling (mostly the down position, the stand up is all SC) to give everyone a more rounded approach to fighting.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

we run it similar to the above methods, but we do one thing a bit different;
I teach a short form of samjien, with pressure testing/strikes to the body, followed by other body/leg striking drills. Then the students do what we call, "Samjien sparring," which is bare knuckle sparring to the body and legs. This breaks through the fear barrier, and allows them to go to the next levels with more confidence.

plus, they get to brag to their friends that they do "bare knuckle sparring." :-)

[bawang]

1. ask to "light spar"

2. suddenly go all out

3. brag about winning a fight on blog

[David Jamieson]

1. ask to "light spar"

2. suddenly go all out

3. brag about winning a fight on blog

bwahahahahaa. hilarious...because it is so sadly true at times. :(

I've been in clubs where people do this.

[Ray Pina]

Different levels of aggression for different kinds of sparring.... depends on goals.

Sometimes full contact/power with quick stoppage.

Sometimes full contact/power until submission or stoppage.

Sometimes light power full contact.

Sometimes just take downs

Sometimes just rolling

sometimes rolling with ground n pound with boxing gloves

Sometimes start on the ground back-to-back with all of the above options

[Howard]

Many ways but most common that we practice include

two man fixed sparring,
Basic application and self defense combos some chin na included
technique development sparring which allows progressive develop of method,
strike, lock, throw restrictive combat,
full combat with only finger less gloves...no limit on hits except groin, eyes
scenario Combat which is started from awkward unprepared positions with and without apparatus - could be ground, sitting, walking, in car whatever ...
group combat around six to one with again only gloves and no groin rule but with so many people accidents are incurred. Seen most of us go crazy angry here

I have only trained for two years at current place....only two shoulder dislocation, one unconscious and one break so far.... much I have not done as yet.... seen others practice same with weapons as well and other strange stuff

In most cases if it looks like no return teacher or trainer will call get out which means find a way out if not it is called to stoppage,. etc..

[David Jamieson]

Head, mouthguard, cup, shins if you want em, 16 oz gloves, fingerless if the idea is to grab.

We don't go all out, but make contact with frequency.
We try our best not to injur each other and we stifle the competitive BS and keep it to learning.

sometimes something will come up and we stop and start drilling a particular attack and defense and then move back into free spar.

This usually only occurs after training a particular range of skills and then we wanna try em out.

As we are both what could be considered oldish, I think we're doing just fine.

[Drake]

Just remember, the harder you go with head shots, the greater the chance is of you having to explain to "Ma and Pa" why little Jimmy now has TBI...

[Mike Patterson]

Just remember, the harder you go with head shots, the greater the chance is of you having to explain to "Ma and Pa" why little Jimmy now has TBI...

Good point and precisely why I don't teach anyone under legal adult age.

Gino Sifu has a valid point though in that all operators, me included, have to tussle with our insurance companies over what we do and how. So we have now four tiers which we've been able to establish with the help of attorneys;

First tier satisfying all insurance criteria in terms of saftey gear. Our carrier requires a headguard (we use the cage from kuoshu but I had to get it approved), gloves (we uses the 4 oz. fingerless koushu), a ribguard or chest protector (we use the ribguard option). Light contact "appropriate" for beginners.

Second tier, with appropriate waiver filled with legalese about tenure and the waiving of certain rights.... Lose the ribguard and go harder including takedowns.

Third tier, same cage and gloves. More legalese about waiving certain rights and the awareness of same. Now all is allowed, but with restraint of targeting the groin, back brain or eyes.

Fourth tier; gear optional. Legalese about potential death and dismemberment (essentially a competition waiver). Full contact but with same three targets disallowed. Throws, grappling and finiish moves permitted whether upright, kneeling or actually on the ground with the opponent and under COMPLETE CONTROL obviously. (just in case my adjustor reads this) :)

Seriously though, we DO follow the guidelines. It's dangerous enough as it is and there is no need to increase the risk unnecessarily.

My insurance company requires full disclosure of activities represented, of course. And they have the ability to do spot inspections as a result of what we have done. They also require a certain "tenure" before the student is deemed capable of signing off on each tier. Otherwise it can be legally argued that the person was not "aware" of the potential damage due to "not fully understanding the scope" of what is being trained.

I long for the good old days often. :(

[Dragonzbane76]

Good point and precisely why I don't teach anyone under legal adult age.
class last night we had some younger peoples working out and sparring, they were fully padded up, mouth piece, etc. and still doing light contact. I don't mind the people whom have been with us awhile sparring hard and full everything, but stress the need for control. telling them that these are the people you work out with and to watch the blows to the head and neck if takin down.

the ones you have to watch for are the HardAZZs coming in on the first class head hunting. Usually i'm the one or the other instructor whom goes with these sorts to feel them out and keep it controlled.


Mr. Patterson, that's an interesting summary of your "tiered" legals. Glad you shared that. I'll keep some of that in mind for our school.

[Mike Patterson]

Mr. Patterson, that's an interesting summary of your "tiered" legals. Glad you shared that. I'll keep some of that in mind for our school.

You are quite welcome. It worked for me as one of the many steps that become necessary when you try to balance realism with modern legal issues, student motivation/retention, student desire/interest, etc.

It is hard sometimes nowadays balancing your desire to run a realistic and effective program in your school with the desire to have a successful school in which to run thta realistic and effective program. :)

[KJW]

We tend to do light free sparring. The nature of some of the strikes we do, doesn't really lend itself to donning cumbersome pads and gloves. We wear mitts that leave the fingers free.

Some of our strikes use the fingers; like crane feathers to the eyes or the fingers immitate the beak of the crane or strike with the edge of the hand (yik) or with the wrist. We also employ a lot of subtle spins that you just couldn't do with gloves on. We spin the fist on the way to the target and then some of the strikes spin as they hit aswell.

I sometimes wish we could do more sparring, as I think it's really important to build up the reactions. Occasionally we get a bit carried away and the Sifus stop us and say 'light free sparring!'. Inevitably we get tagged occasionally but that helps keep your evasion and defense sharp.

[Lucas]

well im not in a cma school at this point in time, im focused on judo right now, but i'll share a few ways we spar.

1. upper ranks (this depends on how many people are there) line one side of the gym, lower ranks line up to a partner, spar for 1-2 min, after time, move one man to your right. depends on how many people are there as to how many times you spar each person...say 6 sparring matches at once, you would spar 12 times then, roughly you spar each guy 2 times. if you gas you can break if you really need. 'full contact'

2. everyone in a circle, one guy in middle, everyone takes turns sparring with him for 1-2 min. spar until your done, then keep sparring. this is game face, this is how its going to be in competion. time to get serious. no breaks. 'full contact'

with these two you will be sparring people heavier, lighter, more skilled and less skilled (unless you're a noob like me :D ) upper ranks will 'adjust' their skill level to lower ranks.

3. find someone with your similar weight and spar. if they are similar rank, even better. this is much more casual. 'full contact'

[Dragonzbane76]

Some of our strikes use the fingers; like crane feathers to the eyes or the fingers immitate the beak of the crane or strike with the edge of the hand (yik) or with the wrist. We also employ a lot of subtle spins that you just couldn't do with gloves on. We spin the fist on the way to the target and then some of the strikes spin as they hit aswell.


Do you find that this kind of sparring takes away from power generation or builds bad habits? Not downing on what your doing. Just asking.

I remember starting in KF and we did a lot of intricate striking with hand postures. Cranes beak, phonix eye, dragons head, etc. Later on when I started training in differeing styles and systems (boxing, MT, etc.) I noted the bad habits I had aquired in pulling stuff from earlier drills as stated. Just curious if you've ever experienced this.

[SPJ]

Please share thoughts and ideas concerning this.:)

If you have a good mattress or a stage with a ring.

You may go free will but both have to agree to some rules.

San Shou rules

Kuo Shu rules

or just some agreed rules.

punch kick throw away

most would say no elbow, no knee, no head shot etc

fine as long as both agree

what ever you want basically.

:)

[KJW]

Do you find that this kind of sparring takes away from power generation or builds bad habits? Not downing on what your doing. Just asking.

I remember starting in KF and we did a lot of intricate striking with hand postures. Cranes beak, phonix eye, dragons head, etc. Later on when I started training in differeing styles and systems (boxing, MT, etc.) I noted the bad habits I had aquired in pulling stuff from earlier drills as stated. Just curious if you've ever experienced this.

No I don't think so. I think they are just another possible strike in you're arsenal. These techniques are difficult to use in sparring, the reason for this I think is that if you use them then you have to use them properly, which you just can't do in a friendly sparring match. They always target vunerable areas or pressure points.

We do quite a bit of work conditioning the fingers & wrists. Which is neccesary in order to make these techniques effective. The punches we use are very direct, no pulling back or winnding up the punch, everything moves straight towards the target as fast as possible.

I'd like to try another style at some point. I think some of the techniques we do combined with some of the Wing Chun close quarter stuff would be quite effective.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

No I don't think so. I think they are just another possible strike in you're arsenal. These techniques are difficult to use in sparring, the reason for this I think is that if you use them then you have to use them properly, which you just can't do in a friendly sparring match. They always target vunerable areas or pressure points.

We do quite a bit of work conditioning the fingers & wrists. Which is neccesary in order to make these techniques effective. The punches we use are very direct, no pulling back or winnding up the punch, everything moves straight towards the target as fast as possible.

I'd like to try another style at some point. I think some of the techniques we do combined with some of the Wing Chun close quarter stuff would be quite effective.

In Pai Lum some of the finger and wrist conditioning include:

Tiger Claw Pushups- All fingers curled into Tiger Claw and held while performing pushups.

Mantis Wrist Pushups- Push ups done on the wrists to condition and strenghten.

Finger and Serpent Fang Conditioning- Best done on a makiwara, spearhand, single, and two pronged finger strikes to condition this area.

Grip Ball- Strengthens the hands and fingers, essential for having strong Tiger Claw, Dragon Claw, and Eagle Claw.

Also if you have a canvas bag practicing Tiger Tear is useful, palm strike followed by Tiger Claw. This will strenghten both hand and fingers as well as practice timing and give you a target.

One thing to consider when using some of the more exotic animal techniques and pressure points is that using these while clinching and controlling your opponent using Shuai is much more effective than while trying to strike a moving opponent.
Small, particulary soft areas that finger and wrist strikes are meant to hit are difficult on a moving opponent due to the small window you are trying to apply.

Threading the needle.;)