My main point

[Taixuquan99]

Iron Eagle(aka Dragonzbane)

A quick response to your statements re: I've made on topic threads and no one responds.

There are probably, at any time, ten to twelve members present at a time who are largely the main determination on what conversation is going to be. ANY of them on forums for more than a few years have accepted that some threads they make are non-starters. For all ten to twelve to contribute nothing for an extended period, and flame wars are all that's going on, is disrespecting everyone, because they're choosing it. If I do it, if you do it, same deal.

I have been super busy the last three weeks, so I've checked the topics and only been able to read a tiny bit. Fortunately, there was nothing to read here. I literally thought, for two weeks, that someone had stickied some really bad threads on the main forum here, there was so little change.

So my point is, if those ten mambers don't discuss kung fu at app level ever for a month, someone should bag on them, period. Your topic didn't catch on, all the other members who can contribute suddenly had the same problem? Probably not.

Agree with it or not, you and I get along well, but when the environment gets caustic, YKW doesn't start good threads, and your entertainment ain't worth all that.

Sanjuro Ronin- In response to "I've never seen this mma guy hostile to tma" I was at Bullshido with you, can't sell that one to me. The guy who called you an iron hand fraud comes to mind. Eat it, Canadian.

Dragonzbane- Same deal, Lucas left over a mma fanboy making ad hominem attacks solely because he didn't like TMA, Eat it, avatar of Gene Ching as channeled through LKFMDC!

Gene Ching- Give up your cheese!

Darid Hammieness- I just wanted to make clear to Iron Eagle my position, if it's liked or not, at this point, I won't continue this conversation on the forum if it's negative.

[Lucas]

It was a moment of supreme weakness that I will forever be shamed for.

[TenTigers]

well, though this isn't about bullshido, really...I pretty much left that site too.
I just got sick of some of the pretentious, holier than though attitude of several of the long standing members.
I especially could not stand the little game that if they didn't like what you said, they harped on how the sentence structure, or grammar was incorrect, rather than the content.
I rarely saw anyone really contribute any worthwhile information, or exchanges. Usually, it was more like, "No, it's not." and that was it.

[David Jamieson]

mmmmm ham.

[bawang]

well, though this isn't about bullshido, really...I pretty much left that site too.
I just got sick of some of the pretentious, holier than though attitude of several of the long standing members.
I especially could not stand the little game that if they didn't like what you said, they harped on how the sentence structure, or grammar was incorrect, rather than the content.
I rarely saw anyone really contribute any worthwhile information, or exchanges. Usually, it was more like, "No, it's not." and that was it.

90% of bullshido guys train taekwondo. in a training poll a few years ago most people there train 1 to 2 hours a week.

[GeneChing]

Gene Ching- Give up your cheese!

NEVER!

http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-page-main/ehow/images/a07/sc/0o/homemade-nacho-cheese-ingredients-800x800.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

Iron Eagle(aka Dragonzbane)???:confused:


Dragonzbane- Same deal, Lucas left over a mma fanboy making ad hominem attacks solely because he didn't like TMA, Eat it, avatar of Gene Ching as channeled through LKFMDC!

Ok... um... what do you want me to do about lucas leaving over an mma fanboy? not getting what your trying or wanting here?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

TQ99,

In all honesty man I still don't know where you are going with this. I understand your frustration with the flame wars, I share them too, but sometimes these forums are a plethera of knowledge and other times there a steaming pile of horse sh**it. That's just the truth of it.

Also, don't think I am so egotistical that I expect everyone to post and contribute to my threads, I simply use that as an example that often times people don't want to contribute. The same thing happens when YKW starts threads at times, and his knowledge far exceeds mine.

The point being, sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. I don't want this place to turn into a ******ing contest flame war. But I also respect that Gene and the moderators allow people to discuss freely and do not heavily moderate so that everytime people disagree someone gets banned.

Anyways, my two cents. Take it for what it's worth!;)

[Hardwork108]

I thought I would bring my response to you from the other thread to this one, just in case you missed it - as it contains a lot of relevant points that were discussed:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GOOD POST!




I actually agree on certain points, and always have.
The there is still some hope for you yet, my boy!



When I see criticism of kung fu from people who got more contact training elsewhere that fails to note that the lack of contact training means they could not have entrained for combat any kung fu, I cringe.
That is exactly it! Add to that the fact that many only have a passing familiarity with their given style's principles, but think that they understand them, then what you have in front of you are Mcdojo fodder, as far as their TCMA knowledge is concerned.




When this is carried forward to now being an authority, I also cringe, because it is a sort of self-deluded fraud they are carrying out in their argumentation.
Again, you are talking about the typical delusion of grandeur gained by mixing illegitimate Mcdojo kung fu with LEGITIMATE MMA type training. This is actually a very interesting phenomenon, if you ask me.



Further, when I see people talk about how they have the real thing, and yet I see that the difference in the quality of info on all kung fu styles in English is so bad compared to stuff I can and have found in Chinese, and these same people are saying what everyone else needs to do to save their kung fu,
That is why the finding of GENUINE and AUTHENTIC instruction - even if far from easy - can never be overemphasized. I am sure that you have noticed that I go on and on repeating myself as regards the importance of genuine instruction.



I wonder how the ocean of their wisdom has failed to even fill a pamphlet with something a little more meaningful than "mantis uses a hooked hand, here's a form."
Yep, the watching the finger and not seeing the moon, people.....



That said, though the people you argue with often team up with such morons, which also makes me cringe, they are no such morons, but merely *******es for wasting time arguing all month with you. A number of them I am aware of have quite legitimate kung fu experience.
Please point them out to me, because I want to know who they are!



I just don't see why it isn't obvious to all that an absence of technical discussion specifically on kung fu on the most frequented english language kung fu board is going to be noticed and long term considered a red flag to people who might be interested in kung fu.
You wouldn't believe how many actual TCMA practitioners, as well as those interested in the TCMAs have been put off or even intimidated - and have left - by the likes of Dave Ross and others, who would take an innocent question put forward by a new poster and turn it to point of ridicule, because some how the "kung fu-ness" of enquiry did not fit well with their "new world" view of the "functional" MMA they supported or peddled!




That there is a real sense of urgency to turn this around, because the reputation of tcma in China isn't that much better, but since we're facing the problem first, we'd better make our own solutions. These arguments are a distraction from an important task, and they lead nowhere when they preempt technical discussion or preempt people with useful information on usage into arguments.
We would not have these arguments if the MMA crowd, admitted to their limitations as the "improvers" of the TCMAs and just came here to ask polite questions about these methodolgies, to enlighten themselves, instead of come here and more or less, tell us that what we do is "fantasy"!



You are correct in one sense, there is no question that a fighter who has not trained kung fu in a way to entrain the methods, has trained bjj and muay thai in a way to entrain the methods, and fights in a ring, cannot be using much kung fu.
THANK YOU!

I would go further and say that they have NO IDEA!

These people are "drunk" with their "decades" of MA "experience", that in many cases has taken them away from the TCMA methodologies they seek to "improve" (by perhaps adding Tae Kwon Do kicks.....LOL)!

They don't train kung fu; they don't fight kung fu and they cannot discuss kung fu in any depth without tripping on their tongues. That is the sad fact.

So, we have the, "in the ring this, or in the ring that"; then we have, the pseudo scientific types who try to "debunk" every technique or concept that is beyond their limited TCMA understanding.

For example, you show them (and their "decades" of experience) a TCMA fist formation that they are not familiar with, they will turn around and brush it as a "fantasy", because perhaps the grand master who invented the given system, "had a broken finger and could not form a fist properly" (which somehow went unnoticed by his students and disciples; for generations, that is until the art arrived in Smucksville USA, and our pseudo scientific MMA-ist "I have also done 'kung fu' ", friend debunked it!

Show these people an unusual kicking methodology that they do not understand, then you might get, "oh, that doesn't work in 'real life'. The grand master that invented that system, must have had a wooden leg" (that also went unnoticed by his disciples...LOL)!

Then we have the famous, "the hollow fist is an Internal fantasy technique, invented for the lazy, rich upper class Chinese aristocrats". You ask, why do you say that? But, you will never hear, "because we have absolutely no idea about these methodologies, but are too cowardly and insecure to say it, so we act like modern, scientific 'know it alls', to hide our TCMA cluelessness - besides we have done BJJ, you know"......LOL!




It is a given that, since most kung fu schools do not entrain for this, most claiming to be experts because of ring time are not experts in kung fu.
Again, you are correctly referring to the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon, which effects over 90 percent of those who "train" TCMAs. Of course, that statistic does not apply to this forum, where everyone and their grandmothers, who train Muay Thai, BJJ, etc., are true TCMA experts, qualified to criticise, judge and IMPROVE not one, but all of the TCMAS under the sun.....LOL!



The goals must be training methods that allow entrainment of kung fu(which means replacing traditions like war and bodyguard work with other methods, which most often means gear and drills and sparring),
Agreed, but some schools already do that, but they are in the minority. Also, genuine kung fu training needs more than just contact sparring. People need to train and understand their forms properly (including the so called "development" forms).

People need to understand the principles, also, and beyond the usual superficial level. How many times have we heard about the famous "being" like water and leacking through. Yet many with the usual ring fighter mentality take this to be solely a way of finding a way through when you are attacking. That is, while they quote the water principle, many times they have no idea of the "not going back" principle!!!

So, yes it is easy to "leak" through when you are on the attack and you find openings, but what about when you are attacked by a strong opponent. "Easy", they say perhaps, " I will go back and draw him into a counter".

So, they see water leaking when it is flooding you, but they forget that water will leak into you when you try to push (attack) it. So, what are the training mindset and skill sets needed to not go back? Good question. The answer will open doors to deeper research into lesser known TCMA methodolgies.



open sharing of many methods, and, from there, increased availability of supporting materials in English that were previously unavailable, plus new works based on the results of more qualified individuals. Which means less making students into student-teachers at precisely the time they need to be advanced students, and less chatter in class and teachers showing off, and more teachers having good students to show off. If you don't have the goal of turning out students who could kick your ass, you won't, and because of the concept of face, kung fu has suffered under the burden of this limitation.
I believe that kung fu training was always about fighting. Of course, other aspects, including the cultural/moral ones were always involved, but at the end of the day the TCMAs are combat arts and many schools train them that way. Those that don't are mainly Mcdojos, because you will probably find that schools that don't train realistically will also not delve deeper into the conditioning and advanced principles.

And thanks to you for your civil post, as well.

[SPJ]

Iron Eagle(aka Dragonzbane)

A quick response to your statements re: I've made on topic threads and no one responds.

at this point, I won't continue this conversation on the forum if it's negative.

I spent more time with my iPad reading news and such.

Watching fox news on cable TV about different republican candidates for 2012.

wall street occupation protest

Libya will have a free election.

GI withdrawing from Iraq.

Google is venturing into Pay TV like cable. It just updated Google TV providing internet contents.

I went to check out iphone 4s on apple store. Waited in a line for a long time and gave up.

started Q & A blog

---

it is all good.

:D;):p

[Hardwork108]

Libya will have a free election.


:eek:

Wow, you mean Libya beat the US in having her first free election?:D

[wenshu]

http://i.imgur.com/Gz3sD.gif

[Frost]

Well if that’s how you feel, you have a few choices:
1) leave
2) only post on the threads you find interesting and ignore all the pettiness
3) or push for the complete banning of us MMA guys

[Hardwork108]

Well if that’s how you feel, you have a few choices:
1) leave
2) only post on the threads you find interesting and ignore all the pettiness
3) or push for the complete banning of us MMA guys

I go for number 3! :D

[Lucas]

???:confused:



Ok... um... what do you want me to do about lucas leaving over an mma fanboy? not getting what your trying or wanting here?

defend my honor with blood

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron Eagle(aka Dragonzbane)

A quick response to your statements re: I've made on topic threads and no one responds.

There are probably, at any time, ten to twelve members present at a time who are largely the main determination on what conversation is going to be. ANY of them on forums for more than a few years have accepted that some threads they make are non-starters. For all ten to twelve to contribute nothing for an extended period, and flame wars are all that's going on, is disrespecting everyone, because they're choosing it. If I do it, if you do it, same deal.

I have been super busy the last three weeks, so I've checked the topics and only been able to read a tiny bit. Fortunately, there was nothing to read here. I literally thought, for two weeks, that someone had stickied some really bad threads on the main forum here, there was so little change.

So my point is, if those ten mambers don't discuss kung fu at app level ever for a month, someone should bag on them, period. Your topic didn't catch on, all the other members who can contribute suddenly had the same problem? Probably not.

Agree with it or not, you and I get along well, but when the environment gets caustic, YKW doesn't start good threads, and your entertainment ain't worth all that.

Sanjuro Ronin- In response to "I've never seen this mma guy hostile to tma" I was at Bullshido with you, can't sell that one to me. The guy who called you an iron hand fraud comes to mind. Eat it, Canadian.

Dragonzbane- Same deal, Lucas left over a mma fanboy making ad hominem attacks solely because he didn't like TMA, Eat it, avatar of Gene Ching as channeled through LKFMDC!

Gene Ching- Give up your cheese!

Darid Hammieness- I just wanted to make clear to Iron Eagle my position, if it's liked or not, at this point, I won't continue this conversation on the forum if it's negative.

You sir, have the boorish manner of a Yale Man !
Fact is that when a MMA guy has issues with ANY TMA it isn't the TMA per say but the TMA practioner making some stupid ass claim.
The same goes for when TMA rag on MMA, they aren't ragging on MMA but stupid ass comments from a MMA practioner.
That said, you are quite correct that there is a core in EVERY forum and it is that core of posters that truly keep a forum going.
One should remember that when some "outsiders" causes a the core to be compromised because of stupidity.

[MightyB]

It's very difficult to write generally coherent posts about kung fu. There's at least 500000 styles of kung fu, and everyone uses different terminology. And - to make matters worse, the meanings of techniques were left intentionally vague and deliberately obscured in order to prevent the "stealing" of the style's secrets.

[wenshu]

the meanings of techniques were left intentionally vague and deliberately obscured in order to prevent the "stealing" of the style's secrets.

Many of the names of movements are poetic metaphors which are then either misinterpreted by over emphasis or a simple lack of linguistic/cultural understanding.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

defend my honor with blood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt_Mkci62lE

[Lucas]

respect bro

[GeneChing]

http://blitzattack.com/manage/files/2008/12/nacho-kungfu.png
Nacho Kung Fu (http://www.nacholibre.com/site/games/kungfu/index.html)

[MightyB]

http://blitzattack.com/manage/files/2008/12/nacho-kungfu.png
Nacho Kung Fu (http://www.nacholibre.com/site/games/kungfu/index.html)

This is going to get me into so much trouble at work! Round 4 and counting :D

[Taixuquan99]

It was a moment of supreme weakness that I will forever be shamed for.

Correct.


???:confused: Ok... um... what do you want me to do about lucas leaving over an mma fanboy?

I'm murdering your previous assertion that there aren't mma fanboys who have an overall interest in slamming tma that stymie good convo, I cited an example, I also have had people outright state that to me over the years, so when you and others enable them by saying they are being reasonable, it's kind of counter productive.


TQ99,

In all honesty man I still don't know where you are going with this. I understand your frustration with the flame wars, I share them too, but sometimes these forums are a plethera of knowledge and other times there a steaming pile of horse sh**it. That's just the truth of it.

Look further. Sometimes the place turns all gangrenous, when does it ever self correct where it's not a member or members putting a foot down? Answer: never. The last good convo came after a group was complaining, the one before that, each period is dependent on what Wenshu calls self moderating, and when that gets lax, then a member or number of members says something. This is no different.


Also, don't think I am so egotistical that I expect everyone to post and contribute to my threads, I simply use that as an example that often times people don't want to contribute. The same thing happens when YKW starts threads at times, and his knowledge far exceeds mine.

I know, I'm merely pointing out that it's a rarity that all are trying to start good threads and the good threads aren't taking off because of all of us too busy starting good threads.


The point being, sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. I don't want this place to turn into a ******ing contest flame war. But I also respect that Gene and the moderators allow people to discuss freely and do not heavily moderate so that everytime people disagree someone gets banned.

If members didn't enable trolls, of course we all recognize that things would go much more smoothly. Not enable also means don't pretend the antagonistic mma troll is really just being reasonable, and we should all become accustomed to being accused of doing loony kung fu things that we've made clear we don't.



I spent more time with my iPad reading news and such.

Watching fox news on cable TV about different republican candidates for 2012.

wall street occupation protest

Libya will have a free election.

GI withdrawing from Iraq.

Google is venturing into Pay TV like cable. It just updated Google TV providing internet contents.

I went to check out iphone 4s on apple store. Waited in a line for a long time and gave up.

started Q & A blog

---

it is all good.

:D;):p

Soon Google will run everything. I work, take night classes where I read large tracts of federal regulations, and play guitar. Lately, I've been messing around with bottleneck blues.


http://i.imgur.com/Gz3sD.gif

I like your gi!


Well if that’s how you feel, you have a few choices:
1) leave
2) only post on the threads you find interesting and ignore all the pettiness
3) or push for the complete banning of us MMA guys

Where did I suggest all mma guys need banning? Is this that facetious thing again?

Intentionally antagonistic people whose sole purpose on here is to be so are the only thing that self moderating members cannot do a thing about, and should be the one sole concern, memberwise, of the mods. If that means whatever version of the repeated mma troll who we all previously agreed was disruptive like six times running now, or Hardwork when he pursues people across threads to continue an argument, is irrelevant.

As for 2, are you saying there's been interesting posts on the main page this month? Really?

Given that your options don't even apply, I guess we'll just have to disagree about the fact that the amount of technical discussion here on kung fu is relevant, and is currently at a serious low that began with caustic trolling. All coincidence.



Fact is that when a MMA guy has issues with ANY TMA it isn't the TMA per say but the TMA practioner making some stupid ass claim.
The same goes for when TMA rag on MMA, they aren't ragging on MMA but stupid ass comments from a MMA practioner.

You are waaay too strong in your belief in this. When some kids rag on kung fu, it's for the testicular ruboff factor from agreeing with some older male with possibly some ring experience who they talk with online, mano y boyo. When some tma folk rag on mma guys, it's because hitting people can't be straightforward, it has to be magical and involve unicorns and unitards and tards with corns at uni.


That said, you are quite correct that there is a core in EVERY forum and it is that core of posters that truly keep a forum going.

Yes.


One should remember that when some "outsiders" causes a the core to be compromised because of stupidity.

Some stupidity cannot be moderated except by the stupid person or the people who allow the stupid person here, though. Regardless, the easiest way to make moderation occur where it isn't is by departing from all the OT discussion, doing MORE of the focus topic that the forum is about, and when the mods, who may not even be citizens of 'Merica, finally realize that the valid discussions still are going out the window, then they do something, with some complaining about their volunteer job, before calling the members whiners.

I have heard this is how forums work.:p



It's very difficult to write generally coherent posts about kung fu. There's at least 500000 styles of kung fu, and everyone uses different terminology. And - to make matters worse, the meanings of techniques were left intentionally vague and deliberately obscured in order to prevent the "stealing" of the style's secrets.

In like the ten years half of us have been on here, we could have figured that ninety percent of our moves are the same thing with just a little more focus, and gotten to some really useful variations.

Really, when someone talks about something distinctly CLF, there's one or two moves that come up. How much of CLF could you discern from longfist if you were only seeing it in usage? Taiji from longfist?

We have the same **** footwork, even if the pakua guys want to think otherwise.

The terminology thing is a pain, I agree, but we're on here anyway, so...

For the record, I plan to contribute, in snippets, everything I know fight wise about 50 moves from my style, youtube links, over time. Not "The arm should be relaxed" but what the opponent is doing that leads to this, what is being done to them, and the difficulties or risks as I know them, including how I think it is best trained. I'll make a thread and anyone can do the same with their kung fu. The links will open and close, so only the latest few moves will be included, but the thread here will be a challenge for others, moves from your style. I expect some won't care for the moves, some will be looking for every error, I could care less. I will do it when I feel like it, and, after starting, will add a vid weekly, two minutes, with a week off here and there. So I'm not unwilling to do what I'm talking about. I happen to teach, and actively having used three moves from judo doesn't make one a judo teacher, nor should it make one a kung fu teacher.

[taai gihk yahn]

Then we have the famous, "the hollow fist is an Internal fantasy technique, invented for the lazy, rich upper class Chinese aristocrats". You ask, why do you say that? But, you will never hear, "because we have absolutely no idea about these methodologies, but are too cowardly and insecure to say it, so we act like modern, scientific 'know it alls', to hide our TCMA cluelessness - besides we have done BJJ, you know"......LOL!

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

[Taixuquan99]

When technique level discussions occur on specific techniques in kung fu, I have noticed that there ends up being no question in the reader's mind who knows the technique, whether because of vid provided or things said, where real discussion or sharing is taking place("Strike X is devastating" is not real sharing or grounds for discussion). Where members argue over if someone knows, it becomes a boondoggle and the people who know leave the conversation or take a back seat to people who might or might not know, but are too busy arguing about if they know.

When it is broken down to "all moves equal anything we want" the discussions stay fairly weak.

When discussing striking(hands, we'll say), people tend to talk more about the end effect they see it as having than the technique itself, and almost never do you get "Here are the techniques that most often are counters".

Body to body range is often glossed over as "Too wrassly!"

So good technique level discussion is the only way to ascertain who actually does know their kung fu implicitly. Arguing who knows doesn't. And since some seem really worried that people who aren't experts might play off as experts here, I'm wondering why they seem so determined to use methods that don't work to try to stop it.

[wenshu]

So are we going to talk shop or just keep talking about talking shop?

[Taixuquan99]

So are we going to talk shop or just keep talking about talking shop?

People I talk with all the time asked me questions, I wasn't going to not respond. We can talk shop.

Once I get back from the lake.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have found that one of the biggest issues in technical or even historical serious discussion of TCMA is that, no matter how well the thread is going and no matter if everyone is speaking based on fact ( as much as one can), evidence and experience, that eventually someone will come around and ruin the thread with some vague and irrelevant, " That's not what me sifu said" crap.

So here's the thing about the argument from authority:
It IS a valid argument BUT it is countered by that VERY SAME argument.
In other words:
If you say that your Sifu said this and he is an authority, then if someone sles Sifu said differently and they are MORE of an authority, by the VERY SAME standard you are professing to be right, you are NOW WRONG.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The reason I always encourage, which often gets misconstrued as demanding, that people post videos is because no matter what you say or describe words can be misintepreted, actions can not. If someone makes claims or even describes a technique that sounds dubious, a video would often clear up what they were saying as perhaps they did not word it right.

For this reason, I post some of my personal training videos, videos of me training my students and so forth. I do this not to try and show off or act like I am better or more skilled, but to learn from others or teach and give ideas to others. Is this not the point of a Kung Fu forum, to discuss and SHOW ideas in regards to training Kung Fu.

I think this is something we should all think about when someone says post a vid of you doing it, and honestly, if you can't back it up with that then STFU!!!

[Taixuquan99]

I have found that one of the biggest issues in technical or even historical serious discussion of TCMA is that, no matter how well the thread is going and no matter if everyone is speaking based on fact ( as much as one can), evidence and experience, that eventually someone will come around and ruin the thread with some vague and irrelevant, " That's not what me sifu said" crap.

So here's the thing about the argument from authority:
It IS a valid argument BUT it is countered by that VERY SAME argument.
In other words:
If you say that your Sifu said this and he is an authority, then if someone sles Sifu said differently and they are MORE of an authority, by the VERY SAME standard you are professing to be right, you are NOW WRONG.

I agree. In fact, the idea is a major part of how I designed my training. When I learned the entirety of what my teacher teaches of this style, a style that he uses in a hybrid with his other martial arts, I knew of many different things people said this move was for and that move.

I'm not worried about who said what.

When designing my own training, especially partner training, it all had to be push hands shuai jiao and sparring and related drills, in order to entrain what I needed. But also, it had to be a format in which I could not say "this is the app I was taught" but where I could test all the extant approaches. And I did and I do. I test an idea over and over, even when I'm sure, from this other idea working so consistently, that the idea probably is not what the tech is about.

Every Wednesday and Sunday since you and I were at Bullshido, three minute rounds, thirty second breaks, for two hours, working solely using my style and adding in moves to test, phasing ones out, over and over. That was not my sole training time, but it was four hours every week in which I was specifically testing people's approaches to the style I do, and every approach gets covered. I have varied partners who are all as experienced as me in various styles, most have more ground experience. They do what they like, I'm working my system.

I feel I can accurately define quite a lot more of the system than anyone else I know, and the others I know agree.

There is a difference between hearing someone say "this move can be useful for this situation because of these attributes" and hearing "it's this, my teacher said so." The latter is not discussion. I'm not talking about that.

Which makes for the last part. You say trolls kill technical discussion. That's my line.:D

If a seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot be expected to ignore someone who is adding nothing to a technical discussion, then that same seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot talk about thick skin with a progressive kung fu guy who gets called a fraud because someone else thinks iron hand makes you impervious. Totally, totally different realm of inappropriate.

Of course, it's much easier for you to solve the problem, being a mod and all.;):p:D:(:D:eek::D

[ShaolinDan]

There is a difference between hearing someone say "this move can be useful for this situation because of these attributes" and hearing "it's this, my teacher said so." The latter is not discussion. I'm not talking about that.

Which makes for the last part. You say trolls kill technical discussion. That's my line.:D

If a seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot be expected to ignore someone who is adding nothing to a technical discussion, then that same seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot talk about thick skin with a progressive kung fu guy who gets called a fraud because someone else thinks iron hand makes you impervious. Totally, totally different realm of inappropriate.


Yes. QFT and all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every Wednesday and Sunday since you and I were at Bullshido, three minute rounds, thirty second breaks, for two hours, working solely using my style and adding in moves to test, phasing ones out, over and over. That was not my sole training time, but it was four hours every week in which I was specifically testing people's approaches to the style I do, and every approach gets covered. I have varied partners who are all as experienced as me in various styles, most have more ground experience. They do what they like, I'm working my system.

That is what I have always advocated: CROSS TESTING.
Nothing is more crucial in the development of a fighting system.

[Robinhood]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

Forms are for beginning level students, if you every get past the forms and reach higher levels, the rules change and don't apply or make much difference.

[Taixuquan99]

The reason I always encourage, which often gets misconstrued as demanding, that people post videos is because no matter what you say or describe words can be misintepreted, actions can not. If someone makes claims or even describes a technique that sounds dubious, a video would often clear up what they were saying as perhaps they did not word it right.

For this reason, I post some of my personal training videos, videos of me training my students and so forth. I do this not to try and show off or act like I am better or more skilled, but to learn from others or teach and give ideas to others. Is this not the point of a Kung Fu forum, to discuss and SHOW ideas in regards to training Kung Fu.

I think this is something we should all think about when someone says post a vid of you doing it, and honestly, if you can't back it up with that then STFU!!!

The techniques I intend to put up, especially the explanatory part, is intended to be along the same lines. I say I know a style of kung fu, and I'll show what that knowledge is. It also is inarguably kung fu, will probably resemble someone else's techniques, and so might be useful, plus I might(maybe) get useful feedback.

[Taixuquan99]

Has this become the catchall thread? Awesome.

[taai gihk yahn]

Forms are for beginning level students, if you every get past the forms and reach higher levels, the rules change and don't apply or make much difference.

Ummm - no duh...but that has nothing to do with what I posted

Or r u just following me around the forum now trying to enlighten me?:rolleyes:

[Taixuquan99]

Bruce Lee's shrunken testicle!

[Taixuquan99]

Okay, irony, thanks for ruining the thread.

[Hardwork108]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;
May I hypothesise that the "hollow" fist methodology is a valid one, but was not taught commonly (or openly), but was brought into use to accommodate the aristocrats with their long finger nails?

The reason for this hypothesis is that, when I first started Wing Chun, sifu used to teach the normal fully closed fist. As I advanced, he told me about the hollow fist way, that are used for "soft" penetrative strikes.


sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...
Perhaps, but sometimes further research is needed to gain further clarifications. ;):)

[Frost]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

the old frame yang tai chi i did also had jumping kicks, low stances sweeps and was much more chen like..............just sayin :)

[taai gihk yahn]

May I hypothesise that the "hollow" fist methodology is a valid one, but was not taught commonly (or openly), but was brought into use to accommodate the aristocrats with their long finger nails?
hey, u can hypothesize all u like, go for it; I'm just giving u what has been passed on to me from what in my estimation is a reliable source as regards the taiji usage of the fist as such; but as far as an evidentiary basis for ur hypothesis, u don't see it in the source material (Chen), and the idea that an "authentic TCMA" teacher would teach a not openly taught technique to accommodate his students' cosmetic predilections is pretty far-fetched


The reason for this hypothesis is that, when I first started Wing Chun, sifu used to teach the normal fully closed fist. As I advanced, he told me about the hollow fist way, that are used for "soft" penetrative strikes.
if ur WC sifu has his own ideas about it, that's fine - maybe WC developed it independently and has found some utility in it; of course, one can also hypothesize that he got the idea from a taiji guy who had learned it as such and was given the party line explanation about it, and adopted it as such

this is not to say that the idea of holding the fist in a somewhat "relaxed" habitus and then hardening it at the moment of contact is not something taught or invalid - I am talking about the specific configuration of the fist held hollow throughout pre-strike and on contact


Perhaps, but sometimes further research is needed to gain further clarifications. ;):)
well, my 'research" is pretty much as direct to the source as one is going to get as regards this particular point;

[taai gihk yahn]

the old frame yang tai chi i did also had jumping kicks, low stances sweeps and was much more chen like..............just sayin :)

nice - what was the linneage? this is ours:
http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html

[Hardwork108]

hey, u can hypothesize all u like, go for it;
My mistake, I should have said "hypothesize" as opposed to plain hypothesize.;)



I'm just giving u what has been passed on to me from what in my estimation is a reliable source as regards the taiji usage of the fist as such; but as far as an evidentiary basis for ur hypothesis, u don't see it in the source material (Chen), and the idea that an "authentic TCMA" teacher would teach a not openly taught technique to accommodate his students' cosmetic predilections is pretty far-fetched
Perhaps the students being powerful aristocrats may have had a bearing on this, if my "hypothesis" is accurate?



if ur WC sifu has his own ideas about it, that's fine -
My understanding is that is how he was taught.


maybe WC developed it independently and has found some utility in it;
That can count as a valid hypothesis, but I believe it is not just a Wing Chun thing.


of course, one can also hypothesize that he got the idea from a taiji guy who had learned it as such and was given the party line explanation about it, and adopted it as such
Firstly, that is not what I am told. Secondly, why would someone so funtional minded as him, adopt something that is "fantasy" and does not work, as to my recollection he has no students who are long fingernailed Chinese aristocrats..;)


this is not to say that the idea of holding the fist in a somewhat "relaxed" habitus and then hardening it at the moment of contact is not something taught or invalid - I am talking about the specific configuration of the fist held hollow throughout pre-strike and on contact
Good point.

The fist is tightened on contact, but before hand the fist is MORE than just relaxed, it is hollow.

Also, a (non-WC and Chow Gar) master under whom I did not train told me once that there was no need to "tighten" on impact. This sounded strange to me, until he hit my fully tensed and prepared torso with his "untightened" fist, with a strike that looked effortless, and not only did the force go through but I would not be surprised that the window curtains behind me felt it too...LOL. It was painful and made me dizzy.

What does the master do then? He asks me if I am OK, then soon gathers that I am not, he lightly "taps" my solar plexus with his open palm (I was expecting a downward massage) a couple of times, and I feel 100% OK, within a second or so. Strange, I tell you.....I play that event back and fourth in my head once in while to figure it out better.....:confused: