No Ground Fighting in Wing Chun!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun Doesn't have ground fighting!!!

Atleast Wing Chun prior to the year 2001 doesnt have ground fighting in.

There is Kuit Kuen or sayings in WC that speaks on ground techniques like rolling, armbar, and other various techniques done on the ground....

WC is inclose upright fighting style...WC is No more a ground fighting System than Boxing or Muay Thai is...

Those who have added Ground work to their wing chun are MMAist.


Its all good adding some Ground and pound to your Chun...But there is no form, san shou or WC sayings that deal with fighting on the ground in the rear gaurd or otherwise!

[Hardwork108]

Oh boy, here we go again........LOL!

[Vajramusti]

Oh boy, here we go again........LOL!

------------------------------------------------
Yoshiyahu brings up the same old things again and again. Cheers and bye on this thread.

I f you dont have a wc person to show you- go do something else. And be honest and dont call it wc!!

[Yoshiyahu]

------------------------------------------------
Yoshiyahu brings up the same old things again and again. Cheers and bye on this thread.

I f you dont have a wc person to show you- go do something else. And be honest and dont call it wc!!

u dont like my topic?

[wingchunIan]

Wing Chun Doesn't have ground fighting!!!

Atleast Wing Chun prior to the year 2001 doesnt have ground fighting in.

There is Kuit Kuen or sayings in WC that speaks on ground techniques like rolling, armbar, and other various techniques done on the ground....

WC is inclose upright fighting style...WC is No more a ground fighting System than Boxing or Muay Thai is...

Those who have added Ground work to their wing chun are MMAist.


Its all good adding some Ground and pound to your Chun...But there is no form, san shou or WC sayings that deal with fighting on the ground in the rear gaurd or otherwise!

Ground fighting is not all about grappling. If by ground fighting you mean arm bars, kimoras and chokes then I would agree but you should be able to use your Wing Chun standing, sitting or from the ground. You don't need to add to the system, just explore and train your techniques in different scenarios. Boxers and MT sylists don't do it because their sport has rules, street application doesn't.
You can either train hard with your Wing chun on the floor or you can go and learn jiu jitsu or some other art looking for a miracle answer but badly trained grappling is no better than badly trained Wing Chun. And never lose sight of the fact that the goal of ground fighting int he street should be to get back to the feet as quickly as possible

[Yoshiyahu]

have you tested your WC ground fighting against non-competiton ground fighters!!!



Ground fighting is not all about grappling. If by ground fighting you mean arm bars, kimoras and chokes then I would agree but you should be able to use your Wing Chun standing, sitting or from the ground. You don't need to add to the system, just explore and train your techniques in different scenarios. Boxers and MT sylists don't do it because their sport has rules, street application doesn't.
You can either train hard with your Wing chun on the floor or you can go and learn jiu jitsu or some other art looking for a miracle answer but badly trained grappling is no better than badly trained Wing Chun. And never lose sight of the fact that the goal of ground fighting int he street should be to get back to the feet as quickly as possible

[EternalSpring]

Ground fighting is not all about grappling. If by ground fighting you mean arm bars, kimoras and chokes then I would agree but you should be able to use your Wing Chun standing, sitting or from the ground. You don't need to add to the system, just explore and train your techniques in different scenarios. Boxers and MT sylists don't do it because their sport has rules, street application doesn't.
You can either train hard with your Wing chun on the floor or you can go and learn jiu jitsu or some other art looking for a miracle answer but badly trained grappling is no better than badly trained Wing Chun. And never lose sight of the fact that the goal of ground fighting int he street should be to get back to the feet as quickly as possible

Well said! As far as this topic goes, I agree with pretty much everything in this post

[Lee Chiang Po]

have you tested your WC ground fighting against non-competiton ground fighters!!!

There are no non-competition ground fighters. The sport of fighting depends on submissions and knockouts to win a fight, but submissions are out when you are actually fighting on the street. No one on the street wants to go to the ground and stay there because it is extremely dangerous for them. Only a fool would deliberately do that. In fact, most systems do not develop a strong ground fighting ability unless they are sport oriented. Wing Chun is not the only one.
If I were out with friends and one of them got into a row with someone and the guy took him to the ground and began to choke him, I would simply kick his head for him and that would be that. I can not speak of recent times or all the other WC lineages, but I learned how to get back to my feet from a take down. I have several methods of doing so, and it always works perfectly the first time It is done to someone. Like everything else, the second time is not as easy because the guy is wise to it. No matter what system of fighting you choose to learn, it is always to your benefit to learn how to use it in every situation. If you don't, then you are likely to one day wish you had.

[nelsonmarcelino]

Wing Chun Doesn't have ground fighting!!!

Atleast Wing Chun prior to the year 2001 doesnt have ground fighting in.

There is Kuit Kuen or sayings in WC that speaks on ground techniques like rolling, armbar, and other various techniques done on the ground....

WC is inclose upright fighting style...WC is No more a ground fighting System than Boxing or Muay Thai is...

Those who have added Ground work to their wing chun are MMAist.


Its all good adding some Ground and pound to your Chun...But there is no form, san shou or WC sayings that deal with fighting on the ground in the rear gaurd or otherwise!


How effective is ground fighting against multiple opponents? Maybe that is why WC was not designed for rolling around on the ground as its main focus.

[k gledhill]

How effective is ground fighting against multiple opponents? Maybe that is why WC was not designed for rolling around on the ground as its main focus.

:D Um good point, I was raised in London , guys chase you down in gangs and treat you like a soccer ball, you learn to not ground fight.
I was taught to get up asap.

[Hardwork108]

:D Um good point, I was raised in London , guys chase you down in gangs and treat you like a soccer ball, you learn to not ground fight.
I was taught to get up asap.

Oh yes, the famous London Fist style, where out of no where you would hear someone shouting, "I challenge you to a fight and you must wait for me outside my local pub where my friends are, but give us time to have numerous pints of beer first, to build our "chi" enough for it to sink to our b@lls, before I (we) fight you". Additional comments might include, "I remind you that we are humans and we have rights, so if you hurt us, we will sue you, as attacking you was not our faults, it was all that beer, you see"....LOL! :D

[k gledhill]

Oh yes, the famous London Fist style, where out of no where you would hear someone shouting, "I challenge you to a fight and you must wait for me outside my local pub where my friends are, but give us time to have numerous pints of beer first, to build our "chi" enough for it to sink to our b@lls, before I (we) fight you". Additional comments might include, "I remind you that we are humans and we have rights, so if you hurt us, we will sue you, as attacking you was not our faults, it was all that beer, you see"....LOL! :D

So you know the "way of the beer fist" :D London lads dont do 'sue you' they 'do you' :D na wot I meen guv ?

[Grumblegeezer]

Wing Chun Doesn't have ground fighting!!!

Atleast Wing Chun prior to the year 2001 doesnt have ground fighting in.

Yoshi, where do you come up with the date 2001? Wing Chun has always had strategies to apply if you get taken to the ground, like Jackie, and WC Ian pointed out. I can remember in being instructed in ways to apply WC from the ground by my old Chinese sifu way back in the early 80's.

As far as integrating more and more ground-based training, you are right. After the inglorious Emin Boztepe-William Cheung fight went to the ground, I met Emin (then a member of the EWTO) when he first visited the States, and he told me he was working hard on improving his ground game. Later in the 90s with the rise of MMA, I believe a lot of other WC/VT/WT groups started paying attention to ground fighting as well. Hence the rise of "anti-grappling". From my own perspective, "anti-grappling" is widely misperceived as a poor copy of the grappler's art. In my opinion it is, or at least, should be a set of techniques for recovering from a grappling situation, take-down or what have you... a means for getting back into your WC range, so the other guy has to play on your terms. In other words, what Ian, Jackie, and even Kevin ("I was taught to get up asap") already said.

[Hardwork108]

So you know the "way of the beer fist" :D London lads dont do 'sue you' they 'do you' :D na wot I meen guv ?

You should meet the Colombian Lads where I live - the realities of is considered as "tough" or "hard" in Europe is very different to that of Colombia....;)

[k gledhill]

You should meet the Colombian Lads where I live - the realities of is considered as "tough" or "hard" in Europe is very different to that of Colombia....;)

I would feel okay with my CZ-75 in my shoulder holster :D a great leveler of hard and tough, I may be outnumbered but never outgunned :D

[Yoshiyahu]

do u think wc was originally designed with ground fighting in mind?

[Hardwork108]

do u think wc was originally designed with ground fighting in mind?

Wing Chun was originally designed with fighting in mind. Any kind of fighting will have various ranges. The ground is just one of those ranges. Many TCMA deal with the ground in various ways.

However, in today's world of Mcdojo's and/or incomplete TCMA tuition, many people who should know better have publicly stated that the TCMAs, not just Wing Chun, do not address the ground scenario.

They are WRONG, as this is not a matter of my "opinion" vs their "opinion", it is a matter of FACT, referred to by the likes of sifu Mike Patterson and others.

[Vajramusti]

do u think wc was originally designed with ground fighting in mind?
------------------------------------------------------------
No- but wing chun was designed to train individuals for training themselves to play their own game with what they have and adapt themselves to circumstances in a martial way. Good wing chun training can result in versatility of body and mind. I have found it to be so. I can't speak for others.

[Hardwork108]

I would feel okay with my CZ-75 in my shoulder holster :D a great leveler of hard and tough, I may be outnumbered but never outgunned :D
This is Colombia. You may not be outnumbered here, but you will be out gunned sooner or later...;):D

[k gledhill]

This is Colombia. You may not be outnumbered here, but you will be out gunned sooner or later...;):D

Columbia does strike me as having the potential for this happening :D

[Hardwork108]

Columbia does strike me as having the potential for this happening :D

The good news about Colombia is that if you don't look for trouble, then it will rarely find you, hence you can take advantages of the distinct beauty and culture of this country. :)

[Hardwork108]

------------------------------------------------------------
No- but wing chun was designed to train individuals for training themselves to play their own game with what they have and adapt themselves to circumstances in a martial way. Good wing chun training can result in versatility of body and mind. I have found it to be so. I can't speak for others.

I am assuming that a long time ago a master in my Mainland Chinese lineage formulated a ground fighting methodolgy based on Wing Chun's concepts and principles, which was not trimmed out of the style in later years.

[Yoshiyahu]

------------------------------------------------------------
No- but wing chun was designed to train individuals for training themselves to play their own game with what they have and adapt themselves to circumstances in a martial way. Good wing chun training can result in versatility of body and mind. I have found it to be so. I can't speak for others.



Im simply saying that WC is designed to specifically a ground fighting art...But it is essential designed to combat upright assualts. NE way if your WC is ground based i would love to see it in action!!!

[Phil Redmond]

Looks like even boxers go to the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RmtOnbt3cM

[Chadderz]

No, there is no ground fighting in WC. I can't believe this actually needs to be said really. Yes there are different ranges of combat,no, before the year 2000 WC would probably never have been practiced regularly on the ground.

I know this because:

Pure WC practitioners have no idea what positions you end up in when you are on the ground.

I have studied WC, and I've never been on the ground with it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for your post!


No, there is no ground fighting in WC. I can't believe this actually needs to be said really. Yes there are different ranges of combat,no, before the year 2000 WC would probably never have been practiced regularly on the ground.

I know this because:

Pure WC practitioners have no idea what positions you end up in when you are on the ground.

I have studied WC, and I've never been on the ground with it.

[wingchunIan]

No, there is no ground fighting in WC. I can't believe this actually needs to be said really. Yes there are different ranges of combat,no, before the year 2000 WC would probably never have been practiced regularly on the ground.

I know this because:

Pure WC practitioners have no idea what positions you end up in when you are on the ground.

I have studied WC, and I've never been on the ground with it.

LOL.
Actually you only "know" what you have been taught or experienced and unless you have trained under every lineage and every sifu within each, or maybe learnt personally from Ip Man or one of his peers on the mainland then you can only assert that there is no ground fighting in the WC that you have learnt.
As for not knowing what positions you end up in on the ground, how many different ways can you position two human bodies? Just because the gracies stuck some labels on them doesn't make positions like mount, side mount etc suddenly mysterious and unknown. Go to any playground anywhere in the world and watch kids playfighting / fighting and you'll see all the same positions.

[Chadderz]

LOL.
Actually you only "know" what you have been taught or experienced and unless you have trained under every lineage and every sifu within each, or maybe learnt personally from Ip Man or one of his peers on the mainland then you can only assert that there is no ground fighting in the WC that you have learnt.
As for not knowing what positions you end up in on the ground, how many different ways can you position two human bodies? Just because the gracies stuck some labels on them doesn't make positions like mount, side mount etc suddenly mysterious and unknown. Go to any playground anywhere in the world and watch kids playfighting / fighting and you'll see all the same positions.

Oh cool, you're disagreeing with me. So I assume you have something constructive to add? Maybe some proof that WC is used on the ground, or practiced regularly? And if it is, how effective is it compared to other arts, SAMBO for instance.

However if you have an opinion with nothing to back it up, keep your posts to yourself. (:

[wingchunIan]

Oh cool, you're disagreeing with me. So I assume you have something constructive to add? Maybe some proof that WC is used on the ground, or practiced regularly? And if it is, how effective is it compared to other arts, SAMBO for instance.

However if you have an opinion with nothing to back it up, keep your posts to yourself. (:

For my opinion etc see the thread above before your own post. As for how effective WC is versus other arts, there is no art or style that is superior to any other only better exponents and circumstances. In terms of backing it up, I train regularly with guys who have spent years grappling in arts like wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu and I do perfectly okay thanks and they seem to like what I do because they continue to indulge me and add bits and pieces to their own training.
FYI this is a forum, if you don't want others to respond to your posts then don't post.

Also after reading my previous post and realising that you are new to the forum, no offence was intended by the LOL in the post. It is however extremely irritating when posters claim that their view of Wing Chun is the only one inferring that all others are wrong.

[Chadderz]

For my opinion etc see the thread above before your own post. As for how effective WC is versus other arts, there is no art or style that is superior to any other only better exponents and circumstances. In terms of backing it up, I train regularly with guys who have spent years grappling in arts like wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu and I do perfectly okay thanks and they seem to like what I do because they continue to indulge me and add bits and pieces to their own training.
FYI this is a forum, if you don't want others to respond to your posts then don't post.

Also after reading my previous post and realising that you are new to the forum, no offence was intended by the LOL in the post. It is however extremely irritating when posters claim that their view of Wing Chun is the only one inferring that all others are wrong.

So you cross train? That's fine, but as I said, the Wing Chun system has never had a groundfighting element. That is YOU incorporating it yourself.

And none taken with the "LOL" thing (:

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Chadderz;1142397]So you cross train? That's fine, but as I said, the Wing Chun system has never had a groundfighting element. That is YOU incorporating it yourself.

Nope, not an ounce of cross training. Merely taking what we do standing up and applying it from the floor. Training with people of other disciplines isn't cross training, its testing. Wing chun is fighting, it can be done from the floor therefore it has groundfighting, goundfighting does not equal grappling. Everything I do on the ground is focused at ending the fight and / or getting back to the feet as quickly as possible and it's all done using the basic toolkit found in the forms, applying the techniques in the same way as most people do (so no hidden grappling moves) just starting in a different position.

[Chadderz]

[QUOTE=Chadderz;1142397]So you cross train? That's fine, but as I said, the Wing Chun system has never had a groundfighting element. That is YOU incorporating it yourself.

Nope, not an ounce of cross training. Merely taking what we do standing up and applying it from the floor. Training with people of other disciplines isn't cross training, its testing. Wing chun is fighting, it can be done from the floor therefore it has groundfighting, goundfighting does not equal grappling. Everything I do on the ground is focused at ending the fight and / or getting back to the feet as quickly as possible and it's all done using the basic toolkit found in the forms, applying the techniques in the same way as most people do (so no hidden grappling moves) just starting in a different position.

They do this in Krav Maga, they phrase it "What we do up, we do down."

So you are just "testing" which is cool! Much respect for that, but how do you fair against your grappling counterparts?

Also, I have a video here of Wing Chun type fighting from the ground, although I wish to point out that this Instructor is a JKD Instructor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYllrF8ZeZA

[Jake104]

Isn't that what the Gracies did? Apply standing Judo/ Ju Jistu techniques on the ground? Isn't that what Kosen Judo is? Judo with emphasis on keeping the fight on the ground... Either way in the street if somebody was choking a friend of mine out on the ground . I would with out hesitation punt that persons head like I was kicking the game winning field goal. But hey that's just me:D

[CFT]

Judo already has ne-waza (ground) techniques. The Gracies just emphasized that part of the judo curriculum.

[Chadderz]

Isn't that what the Gracies did? Apply standing Judo/ Ju Jistu techniques on the ground? Isn't that what Kosen Judo is? Judo with emphasis on keeping the fight on the ground... Either way in the street if somebody was choking a friend of mine out on the ground . I would with out hesitation punt that persons head like I was kicking the game winning field goal. But hey that's just me:D

Similar, although grappling does transfer more naturally onto the ground. What happened was what you described, however, they did develop it into something much more.

Kinda like the way Kung Fu arts branched of into separate systems of there own.

[wingchunIan]

Isn't that what the Gracies did? Apply standing Judo/ Ju Jistu techniques on the ground? Isn't that what Kosen Judo is? Judo with emphasis on keeping the fight on the ground... Either way in the street if somebody was choking a friend of mine out on the ground . I would with out hesitation punt that persons head like I was kicking the game winning field goal. But hey that's just me:D

To be fair its what most folks would do, which is why IMO ground fighting should only ever be only a last resort (I would never go to the ground through choice), and should have a focus on short duration to either finish the fight or get back to the feet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Judo already has ne-waza (ground) techniques. The Gracies just emphasized that part of the judo curriculum.

That is a huge understatement.
The developed ground work to a very high level with focus on SUBMISSION as opposed to the pin AND hey did it dealing with the issues of strikes in a no-holds barred environment.

[Yoshiyahu]

I would love to see that in that action from wrestler actually trying to submit or pin you!!!



[QUOTE=Chadderz;1142397]So you cross train? That's fine, but as I said, the Wing Chun system has never had a groundfighting element. That is YOU incorporating it yourself.

Nope, not an ounce of cross training. Merely taking what we do standing up and applying it from the floor. Training with people of other disciplines isn't cross training, its testing. Wing chun is fighting, it can be done from the floor therefore it has groundfighting, goundfighting does not equal grappling. Everything I do on the ground is focused at ending the fight and / or getting back to the feet as quickly as possible and it's all done using the basic toolkit found in the forms, applying the techniques in the same way as most people do (so no hidden grappling moves) just starting in a different position.

[maxattck]

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1142399]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYllrF8ZeZA

I don't even know where to begin with that clip, but in short in was complaint nonsense. None of that crap would work. The person in guard had no posture, was not trying to pass, basically was just there. Those punches would lack any power, and the elbows......who just lays there like that....it so easy to get bicep control from that position. On a side not I remember anderson silva finishing a guy off his back with downward elbows, but silva had him in a triangle he was having problams finishing (his opponent escaped the traped arm):

[YouKnowWho]

It may be possible that your opponent won't be able to respond to your 1st strike. It's impossible that your opponent won't be able to respond to all your strikes.

[Hardwork108]

No, there is no ground fighting in WC. I can't believe this actually needs to be said really. Yes there are different ranges of combat,no, before the year 2000 WC would probably never have been practiced regularly on the ground.

I know this because:

Pure WC practitioners have no idea what positions you end up in when you are on the ground.

I have studied WC, and I've never been on the ground with it.
The world, including this forum, is full of people who have "studied" Wing Chun.

Also, let me remind you that in Mainland China, there are at least 7 other authentic lineages......

[Chadderz]

The world, including this forum, is full of people who have "studied" Wing Chun.

Also, let me remind you that in Mainland China, there are at least 7 other authentic lineages......

That's all good, so please, prove me wrong with some evidence. I'll accept a video off Youtube even, as long as the quality is decent.

Other than that, if you're not adding anything productive to a conversation, then you're not being helpful really.

[Dragonzbane76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYllrF8ZeZA

watch most of the vid. honestly what was shown is not a smart idea when on your back. Yeah, you can strike someone from your back, but it lacks any kind of power. second off someone that has any experience in grappling knows that you need to lock down the arms. If no lock down then lean back for GNP leverage. I understand this is a demo type video but throwing strikes from your back shouldn't be on the top of your priority list. First should be getting out from under that person while negating the GNP from the top.

[Hardwork108]

That's all good, so please, prove me wrong with some evidence. I'll accept a video off Youtube even, as long as the quality is decent.

Other than that, if you're not adding anything productive to a conversation, then you're not being helpful really.

You tube is not the beginning,nor the end of all TCMA validity. Suffice to say that in the Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, ground fighting is part of the traditional syllabus. You can believe this or not, but the fact is that this range of combat exists in Wing Chun, idependent of clips of it being available on Youtube.

By the way, the same thing that you said about there not being ground fighting in Wing Chun, has been said about other TCMA styles, and indeed in some cases aALL TCMA styles, by misinformed posters here and I assume elsewhere as well. The people who made these comments are also wrong!

[Chadderz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYllrF8ZeZA

watch most of the vid. honestly what was shown is not a smart idea when on your back. Yeah, you can strike someone from your back, but it lacks any kind of power. second off someone that has any experience in grappling knows that you need to lock down the arms. If no lock down then lean back for GNP leverage. I understand this is a demo type video but throwing strikes from your back shouldn't be on the top of your priority list. First should be getting out from under that person while negating the GNP from the top.

I posted that video in this thread first! Haha, go and look man (:


You tube is not the beginning,nor the end of all TCMA validity. Suffice to say that in the Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice, ground fighting is part of the traditional syllabus. You can believe this or not, but the fact is that this range of combat exists in Wing Chun, idependent of clips of it being available on Youtube.

By the way, the same thing that you said about there not being ground fighting in Wing Chun, has been said about other TCMA styles, and indeed in some cases aALL TCMA styles, by misinformed posters here and I assume elsewhere as well. The people who made these comments are also wrong!

Right, I'm going to take a persons word as truth... OVER THE INTERNET. Nah, you need proof, it's just one of those things that validates an argument. It's really useful, you should try it ^^

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Chadderz;1142400]

I don't even know where to begin with that clip, but in short in was complaint nonsense. None of that crap would work. The person in guard had no posture, was not trying to pass, basically was just there. Those punches would lack any power, and the elbows......who just lays there like that....it so easy to get bicep control from that position. On a side not I remember anderson silva finishing a guy off his back with downward elbows, but silva had him in a triangle he was having problams finishing (his opponent escaped the traped arm):

Not sure I like the way this looks like I originally posted that clip. Nothing to do with me - please be more careful with the way you use the quote button!:mad:

[Hardwork108]

Right, I'm going to take a persons word as truth... OVER THE INTERNET. Nah, you need proof, it's just one of those things that validates an argument. It's really useful, you should try it ^^
It is ironic that you seek TCMA truth through the internet, while you refuse to take the word of someone practicing a lineage of Wing Chun that addresses the ground fighting scenario.

Also, I have the proof. It is you who doesn't have it, so you are the one who should search for it, that is if you have an inquisitive mind. My only advice is that you will find it by dedicating yourself to practicing a REAL and AUTHENTIC TCMA, and not the majority "fast food" versions that most people, including those who post on internet forums practice. ;)

Alterantively, if you do not have the patience, nor the desire to research and practice the TCMAs as complete arts, then your local BJJ gym is your friend.

To each his own, I say......

[GlennR]

It is ironic that you seek TCMA truth through the internet, while you refuse to take the word of someone practicing a lineage of Wing Chun that addresses the ground fighting scenario.

Also, I have the proof. It is you who doesn't have it, so you are the one who should search for it, that is if you have an inquisitive mind. My only advice is that you will find it by dedicating yourself to practicing a REAL and AUTHENTIC TCMA, and not the majority "fast food" versions that most people, including those who post on internet forums practice. ;)

Alterantively, if you do not have the patience, nor the desire to research and practice the TCMAs as complete arts, then your local BJJ gym is your friend.

To each his own, I say......

Arent you the guy that admitted he didnt fight or spar?

[Chadderz]

It is ironic that you seek TCMA truth through the internet, while you refuse to take the word of someone practicing a lineage of Wing Chun that addresses the ground fighting scenario.

Also, I have the proof. It is you who doesn't have it, so you are the one who should search for it, that is if you have an inquisitive mind. My only advice is that you will find it by dedicating yourself to practicing a REAL and AUTHENTIC TCMA, and not the majority "fast food" versions that most people, including those who post on internet forums practice. ;)

Alterantively, if you do not have the patience, nor the desire to research and practice the TCMAs as complete arts, then your local BJJ gym is your friend.

To each his own, I say......

Hey man, if you've got the proof, I want to see, because obviously, I don't have it (that's why I'm asking YOU) :p. Eh, I've stopped taking Wing Chun, the guy I was with was alright. I still take it some parts of Wing Chun (in Jun Fan Gung Fu classes) but it's not the same thing.

When I see somebody make WC a "complete art" I'll be there studying... Until then I'll stick with my BJJ classes :p