Name of this form?

[5thBrother]

Hi

Can anyone tell me the name of this form please?

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahxhozz7d5M

starts at 30sec mark

[mooyingmantis]

Hi

Can anyone tell me the name of this form please?

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahxhozz7d5M

starts at 30sec mark

It goes by two different names depending on who you ask. It is called Eighteen Hands (shi ba shou) or Eighteen Elders (shi be sou). It is commonly taught by the Hong Kong branches of Seven Star Praying Mantis (qixing tanglangquan).

[5thBrother]

Thank you very much for the information :)

[mooyingmantis]

Glad to help! :)

[18elders]

It is 18 elders, 18 hands is a completely different form.

[YouKnowWho]

"18 elders" makes no Chinese sense. What's the meaning of

- "18" here?
- "elders" here?

Were there 18 old masters who created this form together? Have you even heard that 18 TCMA masters got together all at the same time? It's very difficult to link "old men" with a form.

Please notice that when you speak in Cantonese, to a non-Cantonese speaker, it will have a complete different meaning. Example are:

- Shou,
- Sao,
- Sau,

Here is a famous Cantonese joke. In a crowded bus,

Girl: You love me so much, it makes me feel uncomfortable.
Guy: I didn't say that I love you.
Girl: If you don't love me, who do you love?
Guy: Whom do I love should not be your concern.
Girl: ...

The word "close body contact" in Cantonese pronounce exactly the same as the the word "love" in Mandarin.

[mooyingmantis]

LOL! Like I said, "It depends on who you ask". :D
We have had this debate before.

[-N-]

Were there 18 old masters who created this form together? Have you even heard that 18 TCMA masters got together all at the same time? It's very difficult to link "old men" with a form.

Well fwiw, the story is that Mantis includes the best skills or methods of 18 different masters.

[alextse4]

This is a bad example of performing Northern style mantis in southern style favour.

[-N-]

Maybe he got the sequence from a book.

[YouKnowWho]

This is a bad example of performing Northern style mantis in southern style favour.

Agree! I have never seen any northern PM form was performed without "speed". Sometime people may just record form in slow motion for teaching purpose.

[5thBrother]

This is a bad example of performing Northern style mantis in southern style favour.

This "southern flavour" is what peeked my interest initially.

Can anyone point me to a clip of it performed with more correctly, just to compare.

[YouKnowWho]

This "southern flavour" is what peeked my interest initially.

Can anyone point me to a clip of it performed with more correctly, just to compare.
Different forms but with good speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8E9uLaMBevg

[mantid1]

N

Maybe he is doing the form to produce a video or book. Many people doing that these days.

[mooyingmantis]

This "southern flavour" is what peeked my interest initially.

Can anyone point me to a clip of it performed with more correctly, just to compare.

Here is a good rendition of the form, though again done at teaching speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJT665b1ew&feature=related

Here is one of my kung fu brothers, a fellow student of Mike Biggie, demonstrating the set with some speed and power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CIvl3eb5Fk&feature=channel_video_title

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Steve (18 Elders),
Where is that video of you and John doing the two man of this at Nick Scrima's tourny?
Kevin

[18elders]

there used to be a link of it on here from yao sing( i believe) but last time i tried to find it, the link was gone

[Tainan Mantis]

so, that video is gone forever?

[Codeboy]

This is interesting because when it is played out at this speed with the certain pauses thrown in, it changes a lot of the application compared to the way I learned it.

[EarthDragon]

codeboy, can you explian? the aplication does not change due to the speed, pauses or empahsis

[18elders]

somewhere i have the vhs of it, just hope i can find it. some of my tapes got damaged and i had to toss them so hopefully it wasn't one of those.

[EarthDragon]

LOL VHS, your dating yourself steve..... but if it helps you feel better I have some on 8mm

[MightyB]

somewhere i have the vhs of it, just hope i can find it. some of my tapes got damaged and i had to toss them so hopefully it wasn't one of those.

Quick word of advice to anyone that still has stuff archived on VHS... after about 10 years, the recording medium on the tape starts to deteriorate, so transfer your footage to something better like DVD or better yet, a hard drive as soon as possible. You can buy VHS to DVD recorders for under $50 at places like Target. It's worth the investment.

[18elders]

I have just started the process of changing them to dvd. will probably take me a while.

[YouKnowWho]

Quick word of advice to anyone that still has stuff archived on VHS... after about 10 years, the recording medium on the tape starts to deteriorate, so transfer your footage to something better like DVD or better yet, a hard drive as soon as possible. You can buy VHS to DVD recorders for under $50 at places like Target. It's worth the investment.
Thanks for reminding me on this. I'll do this ASAP. I have so many tournaments tape that I don't want to lose it.

[alextse4]

[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1141701]Here is a good rendition of the form, though again done at teaching speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJT665b1ew&feature=related

This is also a bad example of performing northern mantis with taichi favour.

[-N-]

One is too rigid. The other, too soft.

This is starting to sound like Goldilocks and the 3 bears.

[Codeboy]

codeboy, can you explian? the aplication does not change due to the speed, pauses or empahsis

I don't mean to say that the application changes when the speed does. I mean to say that when I see the pauses and at this speed that I am more able to see the differences in the application compared to how I learned the form and the application that I learned. Does that make more sense?

[EarthDragon]

ahh yeah that makes more sense, thats was I asked you to explian, sometimes the smaller things are broken down the eaiser it is to see the subtlies. for yers in our chi sao form i never saw the spiraling movemnet of my teachers fist, then when he broke it dowen in slow motion i was missing a whole cyntrifical movement and force which I had never known estisted

[Codeboy]

Yep, no problem. I suppose a specific example would always help too, eh? ;)

So, when he does his sembo (at 1:00 and 1:03) for example, he really drops his arm and scoops as if blocking a kick. The way I learned the application it was always more of a tiu sao clear type of motion. MightyB, you have any thoughts?

[Tainan Mantis]

Yep, no problem. I suppose a specific example would always help too, eh? ;)

So, when he does his sembo (at 1:00 and 1:03) for example, he really drops his arm and scoops as if blocking a kick. The way I learned the application it was always more of a tiu sao clear type of motion. MightyB, you have any thoughts?

You mean this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahxhozz7d5M

?

The technique is called Avoiding hardness. But, it looks more like he is trying to meet hardness head on and crash into it.

It is also know as dodging steps. Though, he is not dodging (or avoiding) anything. So, in this case, the move seems to have transformed into something else that it was not originally intended to be.

THis is a good example of why knowing some of the original names of the techniques might influence you or be helpful to you.
I don't think he would do the moves this way if he knew the names.

[YouKnowWho]

(at 1:00 and 1:03) for example,

That move can be used as:

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
- You start with a right punch, he blocks with his right arm.
- You use your right hand to control his right wrist, left hand to push his right elbow to his left (not showing in the form).
- You use your right leg to bite into his leading right leg (also not showing in the form).
- When he lifts his right leg up,
- you release your left elbow control hand, use your left arm to circle up his right leg, and
- sweep his back left leg.

It can be a beautiful 5 moves combo.

1. punch,
2. arm jam,
3. shin bite,
4. pick up leading leg,
5. sweep back leg.

The form creator might want to train this combo on both sides. In the form, the "set up (1, 2, 3)" was only for his right side but not for his left side.

Here is also a good example that when you training this as a 5 moves combo, you may want to add the missing parts 2 and 3 back in (The form creator might intend to hide this). Another good reason to train drills instead of forms. The forms sometimes just have too many missing elements in it. :(

[MightyB]

Yep, no problem. I suppose a specific example would always help too, eh? ;)

So, when he does his sembo (at 1:00 and 1:03) for example, he really drops his arm and scoops as if blocking a kick. The way I learned the application it was always more of a tiu sao clear type of motion. MightyB, you have any thoughts?

Master Brazier articulated my thoughts on that particular sequence quite well...

How I was shown and how this gentleman is demonstrating is similar but different. (Like you, more tiu sau and avoidance)

I've come to accept that that's one of the neat and fascinating things about this style. Everyone's interpretation is a little different even within the same system and there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, learning why someone may demonstrate something differently than you may shed light on new possibilities within a movement.

[yu shan]

Hey Steve, I have the entire Scrima demo which includes Master Shi, plus you and John doing the two-man form to 18-Elders.

[Yao Sing]

The 18 Elders 2-man set is here (http://laopaiquan.webs.com/video.htm).

Please disregard the website as I started this before I was hospitalized and haven't gone back to it since. I just needed someplace to park the video clip.

Steve, sent you a PM. Send me your email and I can send you the .avi file if it doesn't download from the link I posted.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Yao,
Thanks for posting that, I didnt think I would ever see it again.
K

[Yao Sing]

Hey Kevin, I'll be in the area next week. Mind if I stop by the school? Been out of the loop for a few years due to health issues.

I'll probably be there Tuesday evening with some time to kill. Got a stunt shoot down in Riverview on Wednesday for an Internet ad. Or maybe stop in Wednesday evening depending on the hours I work and whether I ride down there the day before.

Let me know, I don't want to disturb a class or anything.

[Paul T England]

Liked the 2 man version but agree with Alex Tse that the others did not fit with 7 star mantis.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[alextse4]

The 18 Elders 2-man set is here (http://laopaiquan.webs.com/video.htm).

Please disregard the website as I started this before I was hospitalized and haven't gone back to it since. I just needed someplace to park the video clip.

Steve, sent you a PM. Send me your email and I can send you the .avi file if it doesn't download from the link I posted.

This is a good 2 men form,but why put a Southern style opening moves infront of a Northern style mantis form?

[Tainan Mantis]

This is a good 2 men form,but why put a Southern style opening moves infront of a Northern style mantis form?

I Alex,
I can answer this question as I heard my shifu explain this myself.
He told us that this particular bow was a part of the Southern Chinese tradition and that no teacher of his that taught mantis had this bow.

But, because of the movies and tv shows, and us living in Taiwan-a southern part of China- he felt that in doing performances if we left off this bow then people might think us impolite.

So, the point was to preserve some sort of humbleness as recognized by the Taiwanese.
In later year, when traveling and performing in places other than Taiwan this bow stayed with us.

As a side note, his first style was Southern kung fu, so it must be a tradition he has had since very young.

[alextse4]

I Alex,
I can answer this question as I heard my shifu explain this myself.
He told us that this particular bow was a part of the Southern Chinese tradition and that no teacher of his that taught mantis had this bow.

But, because of the movies and tv shows, and us living in Taiwan-a southern part of China- he felt that in doing performances if we left off this bow then people might think us impolite.

So, the point was to preserve some sort of humbleness as recognized by the Taiwanese.
In later year, when traveling and performing in places other than Taiwan this bow stayed with us.

As a side note, his first style was Southern kung fu, so it must be a tradition he has had since very young.

I know the first style of your sifu was Southern kung ,that's why his mantis is also full of southern favour.Yes most of the mantis practicioners are now opening like this.

[MeiHuaBR]

To give more on the subject, I actually know Master Lap Wah Ng. The gentleman doing the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahxhozz7d5M

He's a very nice guy, and teaches several styles in his school. I'll try to enlist them:

- Unified Praying Mantis
- Choy Lee Fut
- Taiji Quan Yang Style

He learned other styles also:

- Wing Tsun
- Eagle Claw
- Shuai Na Dao

His praying mantis background, according with his website:
(warning: in portuguese)

http://nglapwah.webnode.com.br/mestre-wah-historia/

He learned mantis from Master Li Hon Shui (taiji tanglang men) between 1983 to 1985. The name Unified Praying Mantis must come from the will to use his own system of teaching.

I hope this helped a little bit.

[alextse4]

[QUOTE=MeiHuaBR;1153198]To give more on the subject, I actually know Master Lap Wah Ng. The gentleman doing the form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahxhozz7d5M

He learned mantis from Master Li Hon Shui (taiji tanglang men) between 1983 to 1985. The name Unified Praying Mantis must come from the will to use his own system of teaching.

Li Hon Shui is a student of my CK Taichi mantis classmate,but the bung bo here is from 7 stars mantis.Do you know who is his 7 stars mantis sifu?

[MeiHuaBR]

Hello Master Tse,

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but Bung Bo? The taolu in this videos isn't 18 elders?

Anyway, this taolu is very similar with one that Li Wing Kay teaches in Brasil. But there's a lot of diferences. I couldn't find a good example, but here's one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRMZsfvtkOI

Maybe he learned the form from Li Wing Kay during the time he studied Eagle Claw and changed some movements to fit his new view. But that is just a guess.

Best wishes.