Po Pai drill clip

[k gledhill]

Always good to see some ideas at work...enjoy .Po-pai we use to put someone back into striking range, not to just shove away. Enrico [left] makes several mistakes on purpose. Can you spot his mistakes ?


Po-Pai Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPI46wHJ2lE)

[Yoshiyahu]

Always good to see some ideas at work...enjoy .Po-pai we use to put someone back into striking range, not to just shove away. Enrico [left] makes several mistakes on purpose. Can you spot his mistakes ?


Po-Pai Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPI46wHJ2lE)



Can u illustrate the correct way its done?

[k gledhill]

Can u illustrate the correct way its done?

It should be obvious.

[jesper]

he overcommit his movements.

[k gledhill]

he overcommit his movements.

Yes ! and what else ?

[jesper]

Yes ! and what else ?

ok after quick look.

he seems to lacks forward intent, he chases arms, he has a defensive mindset, he steps straight back when pressed instead of angling, his focus is on the arms instead of the opponent.

mind you its a vid so take everything I say with a grain of salt :D

[YouKnowWho]

Po-pai we use to put someone back into striking range,
Why do you want to push your opponent away if he wants to come in to you?

Has anyone ever considered that the Wing Chun sticky hand is a good way to develop your "grappling" ability during the "clinching" situation. You are almost there. All you need is just to have "open mind" and go one step beyond.

Po-Pai Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPI46wHJ2lE)

From your sticky hand situation, it doesn't take much to get into head lock, under hook, over hook, bear hug, waist surround. After that if you just add your leg skill, you can bring the "throwing art" into your WC system without too much effort at all.

[k gledhill]

ok after quick look.

he seems to lacks forward intent, he chases arms, he has a defensive mindset, he steps straight back when pressed instead of angling, his focus is on the arms instead of the opponent.

mind you its a vid so take everything I say with a grain of salt :D

excellent , yes. As its a mutual drill, he is deliberately feeding these mistakes for the other. Linear movement , coupled with over rotation on the vertical axis line , while hand chasing :D it leaves a bad taste in the mouth just typing that :D

As the Partner Po-pa'ing we develop the ability to regulate distances, arms working to cycle through attempts to stop them or simply over swinging at us...

[Vajramusti]

Why do you want to push your opponent away if he wants to come in to you?

Has anyone ever considered that the Wing Chun sticky hand is a good way to develop your "grappling" ability during the "clinching" situation. You are almost there. All you need is just to have "open mind" and go one step beyond.

Po-Pai Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPI46wHJ2lE)

From your sticky hand situation, it doesn't take much to get into head lock, under hook, over hook, bear hug, waist surround. After that if you just add your leg skill, you can bring the "throwing art" into your WC system without too much effort at all.
----------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone....?? Yes yes yes. It's part of a good wc curriculum. Its to easy to critique a video- so I
pass.

[k gledhill]

Why do you want to push your opponent away if he wants to come in to you?

Has anyone ever considered that the Wing Chun sticky hand is a good way to develop your "grappling" ability during the "clinching" situation. You are almost there. All you need is just to have "open mind" and go one step beyond.

Po-Pai Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPI46wHJ2lE)

From your sticky hand situation, it doesn't take much to get into head lock, under hook, over hook, bear hug, waist surround. After that if you just add your leg skill, you can bring the "throwing art" into your WC system without too much effort at all.

One can flow into their own MMA/JKD as it allows. We are training a VT concept .
We share concepts to other grappling arts tactically , whereby the leading arm is used to turn the opponent or allow the opponent to turn themselves and take legs etc...But its a personal choice of the student , rather than me mixing the VT with ? .


Be aware that the 'sticking hand' situation is simply a drilling platform for mutual starting points on a clock face of possible directions and random force exchange with action reaction drills.

When fighting we dont start in chi-sao or seek to use 2 arms equally extended as the drills, so trying to draw similarities to clinch work is only through misunderstanding the intentions of the chi-sao in the first place.
There is a certain amount of 'redundancy' in the drilling that many uninformed practitioners choose to overuse for lack of any other directions.

[YouKnowWho]

When fighting we dont start in chi-sao ...
There is a missing part in both WC sticky hand training and Taiji push hand training. That is how to move in and "build a bridge" in a true combat situation. There are other training that will be needed in order to reach to the WC sticky hand or Taiji push hand stage. Other TCMA systems may have the closing gap training, but since other TCMA systems may not have something similiar to sticky hand and push hand, there is still a gap toward the integration effort.

Compare to boxing or MT which both have gloves on their hands, also with no "bridge building concept", the "WC sticky hand" or "Taiji push hand" has given the TCMA guy an advantage toward the throwing art integration.

If MMA guys can integrate wrestling with boxing, for a WC or Taiji guy to integrate the throwing art should be a much easier task.

It makes sense if you look at it from the "integration" point of view. Whether you will have "open mind" like MMA guy have, that will be a differnt concern. Should we all go through the "integration" path sometime in our life? That will be another discussion.

[k gledhill]

This is the missing part in both WC sticky hand training and Taiji push hand training and that is how to move in and "build a bridge" in a true combat situation. There are other training that will be needed in order to reach to the WC sticky hand or Taiji push hand stage. Other TCMA systems may have the closing gap training, but since other TCMA systems may not have something similiar to sticky hand and push hand, there is still a gap toward the integration effort.

Compare to boxing or MT which both have gloves on their hands, also with no "bridge building concept", the "WC sticky hand" or "Taiji push hand" has given the TCMA guy an advantage toward the throwing art integration.

If MMA guys can integrate wrestling with boxing, for a WC or Taiji guy to integrate the throwing art should be a much easier task.

It makes sense if you look at it from the "integration" point of view. Whether you will have "open mind" like MMA guy have, that will be a differnt concern.

we dont seek to make bridges, chi-sao isnt to look for bridges to stick or clinch, its not like taichi push hands.......it just looks that way to the uninformed....

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Kev, can you upload a vid of what you think is the correct way of holding the placard? In fact, I've never seen a vid of you doing anything and I'm like to see a clip of you performing the po pai or any WC technique/drill for that matter. :)

[k gledhill]

Hey Kev, can you upload a vid of what you think is the correct way of holding the placard? In fact, I've never seen a vid of you doing anyway and I'm like to see a clip of you performing the po pai or any WC technique/drill for that matter. :)

Placard ? ....

[Phil Redmond]

Placard ? ....
During Chinese funerals someone would carry a sign with the surname of the deceased. In later times it could be a picture. Nowadays the picture is on a vehicle as those who are familiar with China towns know. Grab a book or picture frame with one hand on the upper right/left corner and one hand on the lower left/right corner. Ok, so let's say you have your right hand holding the upper right corner and your left hand holding the lower left corner of the frame you have a shape similar to the Po Pai. Po Pai means holding/carrying the sign/placard. It helps to look at all the Chinese characters used in Wing Chun, have them translated and explained. That's why I don't use VT. It's an incorrect Romanization based on proper Cantonese pronunciation. (I do understand that some scholars say V and W are close in Latin and that Ts can be Ch). ;)
I'm still amazed that in this age of available information to see that some people are taught that Tan Sao means "Palm Up". :mad:
The movements in WC weren't randomly picked. They tell you how to use them.

[Phil Redmond]

I just saw the website of a famous WC Sifu where Po Pai was called Butterfly hand. I won't mention his name because I don't speak ill of other people's Sifu regardless of what I think about their WC. The butterfly palm on the Wooden Dummy is called Woo Dip Jeung. Think about it. A Butterfly's wings are symmetrical otherwise it couldn't fly properly. The Po Pai palms are at an angle with one high and the other low. Research is fundamental. :) But don't believe me. Simply show the characters for Po Pai and Woo Dip to some who is "educated" and reads Chinese and find out for yourself. Lots of our WC Sifus knew gung fu but weren't scholars in their language just as everyone who speaks English isn't. I see people write "your" welcome and "irregardless" all the time.

[Vajramusti]

During Chinese funerals someone would carry a sign with the surname of the deceased. In later times it could be a picture. Nowadays the picture is on a vehicle as those who are familiar with China towns know. Grab a book or picture frame with one hand on the upper right/left corner and one hand on the lower left/right corner. Ok, so let's say you have your right hand holding the upper right corner and your left hand holding the lower left corner of the frame you have a shape similar to the Po Pai. Po Pai means holding/carrying the sign/placard. It helps to look at all the Chinese characters used in Wing Chun, have them translated and explained. That's why I don't use VT. It's an incorrect Romanization based on proper Cantonese pronunciation. (I do understand that some scholars say V and W are close in Latin and that Ts can be Ch). ;)
I'm still amazed that in this age of available information to see that some people are taught that Tan Sao means "Palm Up". :mad:
The movements in WC weren't randomly picked. They tell you how to use them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Phil- literal translations of motions can only carry you so far. Ip Man often just corrected people
rather than always giving a motion a name. The literati can be good good at the language but ordinary language does not always give the complete meanings of motions and things. Some tacit knowledge of the subject is also important in translation. One of my favorite examples of problems in translation: Some characters were in the past translated as "Boddhidharma crossing the Yangste on a reed"...contributing to myth making. Tacit knowledge and history showed that boats made out of reeds and sealed with a tar like substance were indeed common in Yangste crossing s in the Boddhidharma's time.

The intent of the user of a term is also important- goddam is not necessarily sacrilegious these days.
But knowing things about a language helps- a necessary but not sufficient condition for understanding a subject.IMO of course.

joy

[Phil Redmond]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Phil- literal translations of motions can only carry you so far. Ip Man often just corrected people
rather than always giving a motion a name. The literati can be good good at the language but ordinary language does not always give the complete meanings of motions and things. Some tacit knowledge of the subject is also important in translation........
But knowing things about a language helps- a necessary but not sufficient condition for understanding a subject.IMO of course.

joy
I appreciate your opinion. In my WC we take things like gan-plow, tan-disperse, pak-slap, lop-grab, fook-control, daahn-bounce off/repel, biu-dart, etc. literally. That doesn't make what you believe wrong though. ;)

[Vajramusti]

I appreciate your opinion. In my WC we take things like gan-plow, tan-disperse, pak-slap, lop-grab, fook-control, daahn-bounce off/repel, biu-dart, etc. literally. That doesn't make what you believe wrong though. ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem.Joy

[k gledhill]

I just saw the website of a famous WC Sifu where Po Pai was called Butterfly hand. I won't mention his name because I don't speak ill of other people's Sifu regardless of what I think about their WC. The butterfly palm on the Wooden Dummy is called Woo Dip Jeung. Think about it. A Butterfly's wings are symmetrical otherwise it couldn't fly properly. The Po Pai palms are at an angle with one high and the other low. Research is fundamental. :) But don't believe me. Simply show the characters for Po Pai and Woo Dip to some who is "educated" and reads Chinese and find out for yourself. Lots of our WC Sifus knew gung fu but weren't scholars in their language just as everyone who speaks English isn't. I see people write "your" welcome and "irregardless" all the time.

Ving Tsun has 3 palms, this allows us options with no fixed positions.

Iow its not the hands its the elbow positions used that make the resulting...'hand'.

Vertical palm corresponds to tans dispersing elbow.
Horizontal palm corresponds to jums inward elbow.
Low palm to the fixed centered elbow...

Po pai can use any combination relative to elbows required.

Fook controls its own elbow inwards during drills because its a jum punch ;)

Unless the 'educated' know vt elbow 'speak' , they wont be able to make sense beyond a 1:1 translation. There is no relation to vt elbow.

If I say lau sao it may mean to flip water out of a bucket with finger tips, but how does it relate to VT , I know, but does a person uneducated in VT know ? maybe they think its a finger strike ? they guess like most and end up with an 'interpretation' based on woids n toims.

[Phil Redmond]

Ving Tsun has 3 palms, this allows us options with no fixed positions. . . .
Vertical, Horizontal, Diagonal high, Diagonal low.

[k gledhill]

Vertical, Horizontal, Diagonal high, Diagonal low.

Our SLT>CK>BG>MYJ only have 3 palms that correspond to the same elbows mentioned. Any slight angling of the hands is irrelevant and shouldn't be intentional as as long as the student understands whats going on back at the elbows and their positions .

We use vertical palm with tan sao in chi-sao because it makes the elbow expand as the jum / fok sao elbow contracts along the centerline in lat sao chit chung exercises.

[Phil Redmond]

Our SLT>CK>BG>MYJ only have 3 palms that correspond to the same elbows mentioned. Any slight angling of the hands is irrelevant and shouldn't be intentional as as long as the student understands whats going on back at the elbows and their positions .

We use vertical palm with tan sao in chi-sao because it makes the elbow expand as the jum / fok sao elbow contracts along the centerline in lat sao chit chung exercises.
Thanks for saying your forms. Ours and other WC versions I've learned are different from yours. And that doesn't make yours wrong or mine right. Right? :)

[k gledhill]

Thanks for saying your forms. Ours and other WC versions I've learned are different from yours. And that doesn't make yours wrong or mine right. Right? :)

Mine or 'our' I refer to :

Yip Man > Wong Shun Leung > Philip Bayer > Me

and and earlier system I followed:

Yip Man > Victor Kan > Me

Each had the same 3 palms and corresponding elbows, I am sure other lineages may differ :)

[Phil Redmond]

Mine or 'our' I refer to :

Yip Man > Wong Shun Leung > Philip Bayer > Me

and and earlier system I followed:

Yip Man > Victor Kan > Me

Each had the same 3 palms and corresponding elbows, I am sure other lineages may differ :)

Lol, pi**ing contest . . . lol
Yip Man > Moy Yat > Me
Yip Man > Moy Yat > Le Moy Shan > Me
Yip Man > Duncan Leung > Me
Yip Man > Alan Lee > Me
Yip Man > Koo Sang > Alan Lamb > Me
Yip Man > Ng Wah Sum > Chung Kwok Chow > Me
???? > Henry Leung > Me
Plus a Sifu who taught Pan Nam WC at the 5 Tigers School in Manhattan. I don't remember his name since it was years ago an I was only there a few months. I've been trying to find out he was for years. Sifu Robert Chu was the only one that I knew who remembered anything about him.

[Ozzy Dave]

Our SLT>CK>BG>MYJ only have 3 palms that correspond to the same elbows mentioned. Any slight angling of the hands is irrelevant and shouldn't be intentional as as long as the student understands whats going on back at the elbows and their positions .

We use vertical palm with tan sao in chi-sao because it makes the elbow expand as the jum / fok sao elbow contracts along the centerline in lat sao chit chung exercises.

Isn't that a function of rotating the forearm and by extension the shoulder joint as you thrust forward with the palm?

Is that what you call a tan punch?

Genuinely interested, not being a smart a$$

Dave

[k gledhill]

Lol, pi**ing contest . . . lol
Yip Man > Moy Yat > Me
Yip Man > Moy Yat > Le Moy Shan > Me
Yip Man > Duncan Leung > Me
Yip Man > Alan Lee > Me
Yip Man > Koo Sang > Alan Lamb > Me
Yip Man > Ng Wah Sum > Chung Kwok Chow > Me
???? > Henry Leung > Me
Plus a Sifu who taught Pan Nam WC at the 5 Tigers School in Manhattan. I don't remember his name since it was years ago an I was only there a few months. I've been trying to find out he was for years. Sifu Robert Chu was the only one that I knew who remembered anything about him.

Did any of the above address the elbow hand relationship :confused:

not a ****ing match at all, just curious about elbows.

Im more interested in the elbow thoughts of your previous teachers.

[k gledhill]

Isn't that a function of rotating the forearm and by extension the shoulder joint as you thrust forward with the palm?

Is that what you call a tan punch?

Genuinely interested, not being a smart a$$

Dave

Yes , we use the elbow like this as we drill in chi-sao. The partner does his jum sao punch back at us using his inward elbow to counter the outward of tan. Each becomes a way of developing a line of force down the center line through mutual exchange of energy channeled through stances,elbows, hips.

As we rotate in chi sao each does the opposite punching action so we have abalanced exchange tan>jum ~ jum tan , as each hand rotates out to man sao and bong sao. and then back again, bong training elbow to recenter for hitting in tan etc..

Most will try to utilize a fook as a controlling arm but its actually always trying to hit without opening up its own elbow to do so, fook is the jum strike with a relaxed wrist, ergo elbow focus. The tan sao too, each arm equalizes the other for good force through the elbows hips legs feet. Its pretty intense as a drill. A lot of guys have turned it into a 'soft' way because the intensity seems to over power the hips and they want to move backwards. The aim is to stay still for the drilling , dont move back so the partners get this intense exchange of constant forwards striking energy...:D
As soon as one stars to do hand or wrist actions to deflect this intense force exchange rather than the elbows hips or the elbows go like yo-yo's its over ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Did any of the above address the elbow hand relationship :confused:

not a ****ing match at all, just curious about elbows.

Im more interested in the elbow thoughts of your previous teachers.
Saturday, 3-5pm, Columbus Park Chinatown NYC. I can show you there. I'll be in the Pavilion.

[k gledhill]

Saturday, 3-5pm, Columbus Park Chinatown NYC. I can show you there. I'll be in the Pavilion.

Okay, hopefully this Sat. :D

[Phil Redmond]

Okay, hopefully this Sat. :D
Oorah, see you there.

[Phil Redmond]

Chinese characters for Butterfly: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/symbol/blcc_butterfly.htm

Chinese characters for Po Pai Palm:
抱牌掌

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_mukyanjong_app.jpg

Do you think this technique is too complicated or simple?

What is the chances of this application working on a resisting opponent?

[Sean66]

@Yoshiyahu
What does this have to do with the thread?

[Yoshiyahu]

@Yoshiyahu
What does this have to do with the thread?

Its an application of butterfly palms!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

I just saw the website of a famous WC Sifu where Po Pai was called Butterfly hand. I won't mention his name because I don't speak ill of other people's Sifu regardless of what I think about their WC. The butterfly palm on the Wooden Dummy is called Woo Dip Jeung. Think about it. A Butterfly's wings are symmetrical otherwise it couldn't fly properly. The Po Pai palms are at an angle with one high and the other low. Research is fundamental. :) But don't believe me. Simply show the characters for Po Pai and Woo Dip to some who is "educated" and reads Chinese and find out for yourself. Lots of our WC Sifus knew gung fu but weren't scholars in their language just as everyone who speaks English isn't. I see people write "your" welcome and "irregardless" all the time.

Can you elaborate more on your feelings of the wooden dummy butterfly palms?

When the Butterfly palms horizontal or vertical are they not symetirical?

[Sean66]

Its an application of butterfly palms!!!


Wow.

Then I think it's too complicated and will not work on a resisting opponent most of the time for most people.

Perhaps there is someone out there who can make this "application" work for him or her a majority of the time against a resisting opponent....but I doubt it.

[couch]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_mukyanjong_app.jpg

Do you think this technique is too complicated or simple?

What is the chances of this application working on a resisting opponent?

Everything is situational. However, ask a good Japanese Jiu-Jitsu if his holds will work as they stand or do they need strikes to 'soften' their opponent's up.

[k gledhill]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_mukyanjong_app.jpg

Do you think this technique is too complicated or simple?

What is the chances of this application working on a resisting opponent?

:confused:

To start, he's threatening, she hasnt moved, he has stepped in , she still hasnt moved, he poses with a arm extended, she hasnt moved, he's still posing, she does an arm move while still inside his reach of the other arm ....:D she applies arm lock ! Fanbloodytastick !! DVD series coming soon ;)

[k gledhill]

Chinese characters for Butterfly: http://chineseculture.about.com/library/symbol/blcc_butterfly.htm

Chinese characters for Po Pai Palm:
抱牌掌

I came up with this for butterfly palms 蝴蝶手掌

your 抱牌掌 translated as "Hold a license Charge" in google translate :confused:

[k gledhill]

Its an application of butterfly palms!!!

Not Ving Tsun method ....no....:)

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_mukyanjong_app.jpg

Do you think this technique is too complicated or simple?

What is the chances of this application working on a resisting opponent?
This is exactly the move that you can use it to stop your opponwent from pulling his gun from his gun hoster (or pocket). When you use your forearm to strike at your opponent's elbow joing, it makes his arm to bend which pull his hand away from his gun hoster (or pocket). I think the left shoulder downward pulling may be better than the hair pulling. If she can step in her right leg to block both of his legs, the result will be even better.

[Phil Redmond]

I came up with this for butterfly palms 蝴蝶手掌

your 抱牌掌 translated as "Hold a license Charge" in google translate :confused:

Imagine the 5 petals on a Plum Flower. You have your right palm on the upper right petal and your left palm on the lower left petal. That's Po Pai, holding the board, placard, license, sign etc. Butterfly
Palm is Woo Dip Jang. Po Pai and Woo Dip are completely different characters and they mean different things. (please excuse my iPhone typing).*

[YouKnowWho]

Imagine the 5 petals on a Plum Flower. You have your right palm on the upper right petal and your left palm on the lower left petal. That's Po Pai, holding the board, placard, license, sign etc.
That sound like the Judo right upper collar hold and left sleeve hold.

[Phil Redmond]

Let me add that the placard. sign, board is this instance is held with one hand on the side and one hand on the bottom. Not with both hands "symmetrically" on the sides. Wing Chun isn't the only style to use Po Pai. It has a meaning in Kung Fu culture as does Ding Lik, The pot with three legs. In fact when Moy Yat first came to NYC he shared the school with a White Crane Sifu. They called the school Ding Leg which is a distorted Romanization of Ding Lik. It implied that the school was strong and had a good foundation like a Ding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m28NRWGuKIw

[k gledhill]

Imagine the 5 petals on a Plum Flower. You have your right palm on the upper right petal and your left palm on the lower left petal. That's Po Pai, holding the board, placard, license, sign etc. Butterfly
Palm is Woo Dip Jang. Po Pai and Woo Dip are completely different characters and they mean different things. (please excuse my iPhone typing).*

Po pai is 3 elbow positions, the hands correspond to the elbows....3 elbows ~ 3 palms. We have dummy sections with all 3 being worked too .

[Phil Redmond]

I just found these characters so know I'm not sure which are the correct ones for the Po Pai palm.
泼皮掌

[五祖拳]

I just found these characters so know I'm not sure which are the correct ones for the Po Pai palm.
泼皮掌

Hi, see here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1142758&posted=1#post1142758

[Yoshiyahu]

Not Ving Tsun method ....no....:)

why do you say its not a wing chun method...i got it from wing chun site?

non-yip man but still wing chun!

[Yoshiyahu]

Hi, see here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1142758&posted=1#post1142758



i enjoyed that forum post especially the insert about the butterfly palms!!!

http://www.wingchun.org/viewpt/vp1-4m1.jpg

http://www.wingchun-kungfu.com.au/photo_gallery/images/tserngv.jpg

http://www.wingchun-kungfu.com.au/photo_gallery/images/tserngh.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

Po pai is 3 elbow positions, the hands correspond to the elbows....3 elbows ~ 3 palms. We have dummy sections with all 3 being worked too .
I'll show you how we do them when we meet in Chinatown tomorrow.

[k gledhill]

why do you say its not a wing chun method...i got it from wing chun site?

non-yip man but still wing chun!

Okay its not YM > WSL > PB VT you got me there.:D

[k gledhill]

I'll show you how we do them when we meet in Chinatown tomorrow.

Daddy day care again...:D maybe meet up during week ?

[Phil Redmond]

While in Chinatown today (Kevin)..;),
I showed the characters I had to a few Chinese martial artists that I know including a White Crane Sifu who is well versed in other Southern Chinese martial arts. They all agreed that the characters below are the ones used for Po Pai. And they ALL said that it means carrying the sign. When I mentioned the reference to carrying the name of the deceased in a funeral he also agreed. The only difference is some of the Sifus used hand instead of palm in their systems.

抱牌掌 Po Pai Palm

抱牌手 Po Pai Hand

[k gledhill]

While in Chinatown today (Kevin)..;),
I showed the characters I had to a few Chinese martial artists that I know including a White Crane Sifu who is well versed in other Southern Chinese martial arts. They all agreed that the characters below are the ones used for Po Pai. And they ALL said that it means carrying the sign. When I mentioned the reference to carrying the name of the deceased in a funeral he also agreed. The only difference is some of the Sifus used hand instead of palm in their systems.

抱牌掌 Po Pai Palm

抱牌手 Po Pai Hand

Did they reference the elbows by any chance ? :D I'm not disputing what a character can mean or that it means placard only its relationship to VT and our elbow thinking...:)

[Phil Redmond]

Did they reference the elbows by any chance ? :D I'm not disputing what a character can mean or that it means placard only its relationship to VT and our elbow thinking...:)
When you come to visit us I can show you how we use it. I don't know what "elbow thinking" means to you. Can you elaborate?

[Phil Redmond]

Not Ving Tsun method ....no....:)
I think the next time I'm in Chinatown I'm going to show the characters for Wing Chun to some Cantonese speakers, ask them to pronounce them and video their replies. I might as well show them the characters for Yip Man while I'm at it.
I guarantee you won't hear a "V" sound in Wing Chun and you will hear the "Y" in Yip. :D
Wait a minute. Kev, you're in NY. You can do that yourself. ;)

[k gledhill]

When you come to visit us I can show you how we use it. I don't know what "elbow thinking" means to you. Can you elaborate?

Thats my point, the terms dont cover the SLT technical positions of the elbows that coincide with our tan sao "dispersing elbow" strike and our Jum sao "inward elbow" strike.

I will show you , thats really why I want to meet , so you can see it rather than try understand the words that I typo :D

[Phil Redmond]

Thats my point, the terms dont cover the SLT technical positions of the elbows that coincide with our tan sao "dispersing elbow" strike and our Jum sao "inward elbow" strike.

I will show you , thats really why I want to meet , so you can see it rather than try understand the words that I typo :D
SLT doesn't cover elbow strikes, kicks, footwork, etc., but these things do exist in WC.

[Phil Redmond]

Thats my point, the terms dont cover the SLT technical positions of the elbows that coincide with our tan sao "dispersing elbow" strike and our Jum sao "inward elbow" strike.

I will show you , thats really why I want to meet , so you can see it rather than try understand the words that I typo :D
Jum sao I think you mean Chum Sao. Chum can mean to search/seek or sink. Chum/Jum sao is "sinking arm" not inward elbow strike. In fact the word elbow, Jang/Jeung isn't even including in the terms. That's like some people saying Tan Sao means palm up block. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Kevin, I'm a free thinker. I don't blindly follow anyone. Nor do I believe anything someone tells me regardless of how famous they are or their status. I study, examine, and research. I studied Cantonese in CCNY since in the 70's they were the only University to teach Cantonese. I did so because I was tired of seeing the Chinese students in the schools I was in learn different things from the non-Chinese. I have so many examples of the closed mindedness of some of the Chinese Sifus in NYC back in the day. I'm sharing the gems I've learned over the years. You should research as I did. It should be easier for you because we are in the information age. Google and Dogpile can open doors of information. ;)

[k gledhill]

SLT doesn't cover elbow strikes, kicks, footwork, etc., but these things do exist in WC.

not an elbow strike ...again its toims n woids failin me heah !

using the acute angles of the centered elbows of tan and jum as the line we fight along...

It also goes into being an issue about JUM sao, many lineages lost jum sao along the way...its a critical part of FIGHTING with vt...no wonder guys struggle without it and revert to blocking stuff and using two hands for everything.

tan and jum are striking / punching / palming partners in ving tsun...

[k gledhill]

Jum sao I think you mean Chum Sao. Chum can mean to search/seek or sink. Chum/Jum sao is "sinking arm" not inward elbow strike. In fact the word elbow, Jang/Jeung isn't even including in the terms. That's like some people saying Tan Sao means palm up block. ;)

I mean inward elbow ....you will see when we meet....I have afeeling you will say what I said when shown the same stuff...but next SAT ! :D

[Phil Redmond]

Thats my point, the terms dont cover the SLT technical positions of the elbows that coincide with our tan sao "dispersing elbow" . . .
Tan Sau/Sao is dispersing/spreading "hand" not elbow. Elbow is Jang in Cantonese. Hands are different from elbows. If you don't believe me try to play a piano chord with your elbow....:D

[k gledhill]

Tan Sau/Sao is dispersing/spreading "hand" not elbow. Elbow is Jang in Cantonese. Hands are different from elbows. If you don't believe me try to play a piano chord with your elbow....:D


It should be, tan jeung....jum/fok jeung....pak jeung....jut jeung....wu jeung...bong jeung...

[Phil Redmond]

I mean inward elbow ....you will see when we meet....I have afeeling you will say what I said when shown the same stuff...but next SAT ! :D
Next Sat I'll be in South Jersey with my Sifu. Also, classes are going to be on Sunday in the future.

[k gledhill]

Next Sat I'll be in South Jersey with my Sifu. Also, classes are going to be on Sunday in the future.

I teach class in NJ sundays, maybe after back in NY.....

[Phil Redmond]

I teach class in NJ sundays, maybe after back in NY.....
What time is your NJ class? My class is 3-5pm. I could also meet you in NJ is time allows. Or I can come to the city one Sat if you're really going to show up. ;)

[k gledhill]

What time is your NJ class? My class is 3-5pm. I could also meet you in NJ is time allows. Or I can come to the city one Sat if you're really going to show up. ;)

NJ class 9:30-12pm I can probably see you easier in NYC Sunday...Sat I'm with my son, soccer, hanging out.

[Yoshiyahu]

Jum means sink...

Tan means disperse...

The Elbow relationship changes slightly but in both cases the Elbow should maintain the center.



Thats my point, the terms dont cover the SLT technical positions of the elbows that coincide with our tan sao "dispersing elbow" strike and our Jum sao "inward elbow" strike.

I will show you , thats really why I want to meet , so you can see it rather than try understand the words that I typo :D

[Phil Redmond]

not an elbow strike ...again its toims n woids failin me heah !

using the acute angles of the centered elbows of tan and jum as the line we fight along...

It also goes into being an issue about JUM sao, many lineages lost jum sao along the way...its a critical part of FIGHTING with vt...no wonder guys struggle without it and revert to blocking stuff and using two hands for everything.

tan and jum are striking / punching / palming partners in ving tsun...
Let me correct myself. There ARE elbows in SLT

[Phil Redmond]

It should be, tan jeung....jum/fok jeung....pak jeung....jut jeung....wu jeung...bong jeung...
So Tan Sao, Fook Sao, Pak Sao, etc., are wrong terms???? In Tan the elbow should be away from the body and not in the center. Force travels in one direction. You want the force to go past the body not into. The elbow in Tan and fook can be in the center of central lines.

[k gledhill]

So Tan Sao, Fook Sao, Pak Sao, etc., are wrong terms???? In Tan the elbow should be away from the body and not in the center. Force travels in one direction. You want the force to go past the body not into. The elbow in Tan and fook can be in the center of central lines.

Tan, jum/fok, are punches using centered elbows. Elbows roughly
a fist away. Because they are punches they have bodyweight behind them. Because they are centered they intersect the centerline at the wrist for mindless wu sin ability.
We cycle with a tan and jum in chi sao exchanging punching force, hips and elbows and lat sao chit cheung drills...iow I invite you to hit me as a partner to make your tan jeung punch capable of damage. I dont block you except by being centered ......iow I aim at your throat to
Hit and intercept simultaneously...da sao jik siu sao can be either jum jeung punch or tanjeung punch. ; )

chi sao should be a mutual testing, improving drill. A place to work with partners in an equal exchange.

[Yoshiyahu]

make a video of what you speak?


Tan, jum/fok, are punches using centered elbows. Elbows roughly
a fist away. Because they are punches they have bodyweight behind them. Because they are centered they intersect the centerline at the wrist for mindless wu sin ability.
We cycle with a tan and jum in chi sao exchanging punching force, hips and elbows and lat sao chit cheung drills...iow I invite you to hit me as a partner to make your tan jeung punch capable of damage. I dont block you except by being centered ......iow I aim at your throat to
Hit and intercept simultaneously...da sao jik siu sao can be either jum jeung punch or tanjeung punch. ; )

chi sao should be a mutual testing, improving drill. A place to work with partners in an equal exchange.

[Phil Redmond]

Chum Sao is a punch????

[k gledhill]

Chum Sao is a punch????

Yes...elbow in , then forwards, in 2 actions to begin with , later always one striking action with inbuilt lin sil di da.
Same for Tan jeung.... Why Tan and jum/fook are inseparable in drills, each gives the other a playmate :D Each has energy forwards while maintaining line defense , hipd and stance are engaged for a extreme workout ...here in lat sao chit chung drills we keep the stance still [ if you can] and dont go backwards...some mistake this for all fighting and dont go back ever :confused:

[Phil Redmond]

Yes...elbow in , then forwards, in 2 actions to begin with , later always one striking action with inbuilt lin sil di da.
Same for Tan jeung.... Why Tan and jum/fook are inseparable in drills, each gives the other a playmate :D Each has energy forwards while maintaining line defense , hipd and stance are engaged for a extreme workout ...here in lat sao chit chung drills we keep the stance still [ if you can] and dont go backwards...some mistake this for all fighting and dont go back ever :confused:
Where did you get the term Tan Jeung when most people use tan sao? In Cantonese the whole limb can be called sao. Now just the hand as in English. Also, Chum can mean sink (it can also mean search), so how are you comparing a chum sao which redirects a punch to punching? Now I can see in a capping punch where a person will use chum lik, (sinking power). Also, physics dictates that the elbow be away from the center in a Wu Sao and that's very easy to prove. But that's a different case. Please upload a video of your explanation. Maybe I'll learn something.

[k gledhill]

Where did you get the term Tan Jeung when most people use tan sao? In Cantonese the whole limb can be called sao. Now just the hand as in English. Also, Chum can mean sink (it can also mean search), so how are you comparing a chum sao which redirects a punch to punching? Now I can see in a capping punch where a person will use chum lik, (sinking power). Also, physics dictates that the elbow be away from the center in a Wu Sao and that's very easy to prove. But that's a different case. Please upload a video of your explanation. Maybe I'll learn something.


Will try to make a clip, easier...

[Phil Redmond]

Will try to make a clip, easier...
Thanks in advance.

[Graham H]

Maybe I'll learn something.

Hopefully! :p

[Phil Redmond]

Hopefully! :p
Learning should be continuous. Agreed??

[Graham H]

Learning should be continuous. Agreed??

Agreed but I was hoping your reply would have indicated that you may have threw your teddy bear at the screen! :D

Oh well I'll try on Spencer instead.

G