"螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" and "虎扑(Hu Pu) - tiger attack"

[YouKnowWho]

I like the SC (or prey mantis) "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" and XingYi "虎扑(Hu Pu) - tiger attack" that you touch your opponent's wrists from outside in and then move into his elbows, shoulders, or chest. Both moves can be used to create a "clinch" from the striking distance, Excellent tools used for striking art and throwing art integration.

What's your favor application for your prey mantis "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" or XingYi "虎扑(Hu Pu) - tiger attack" if you don't mind to share here?

[mooyingmantis]

John,
For grappling I like to get my double hooks inside the opponent's wrists. Then I shoot my left hook hand behind my opponent's head to clinch or grabbing a handful of hair and drive my right palm heel under my opponent's chin. A good twist and he is down with me slamming his skull on the floor.

BTW, this is the fifth and sixth pattern (霸 王 去 摘 盔 - bà wáng qù zhāi kuī - Overlord Takes the Helmet and 擒 髮 挫 嘴 巴 - qín fà cuò zuǐ bā - Capture Hair & Break Mouth) of the Praying Mantis form 梅 花 路 - méi huā lù - Plum Blossom Road.

At 01:46 I demonstrate the principle on our wooden man dummy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrJvPy5dOo

[SPJ]

2 ways from Ba Ji.

1 Small entanglement or xiao chan. If the opponent grabs your wrist, you place your other hand on top of the opponent's grabbing hand. You twirl your first hand. double insurance that the opponent may not escape. at the same time, you move toward the opponent. You pull his hand down toward your waist. You move in toward him. You may trip (bie) him to fall or by kicking his shin, hooking his ankle etc and pushing his chest or chin or face. etc

2 double rake hands or Fierce Tiger Climbing Mountain. Men Hu Yin Pa Shan.

We rake down the opponent's arm. We are not controlling his arm. We just brush or rake his arm or arms down. We move in close at the same time. We may have to arch our back to avoid his attacking hand first then move forward.

We may follow by big entanglement Da Chan around his waist (spine lock). We push up his chin or face or removing eyebrown or wa mei.

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

John,
For grappling I like to get my double hooks inside the opponent's wrists. Then I shoot my left hook hand behind my opponent's head to clinch or grabbing a handful of hair and drive my right palm heel under my opponent's chin. A good twist and he is down with me slamming his skull on the floor.

BTW, this is the fifth and sixth pattern (霸 王 去 摘 盔 - bà wáng qù zhāi kuī - Overlord Takes the Helmet and 擒 髮 挫 嘴 巴 - qín fà cuò zuǐ bā - Capture Hair & Break Mouth) of the Praying Mantis form 梅 花 路 - méi huā lù - Plum Blossom Road.

At 01:46 I demonstrate the principle on our wooden man dummy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrJvPy5dOo
There may be some difference between the SC "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" and the prey mantis "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" (as shown in your clip). The SC "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" prefers to control your opponent's elbows instead of wrists. The wrists control in temporary but the elbows control is not.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9705/mantishands.jpg

It may be interest to compare the PRO and CON between grabbing your opponent's wrists from "inside out (as you did in your clip)" and from "outside in".

If you do it from

- "inside out", the PRO is you have better control on your opponent's wrist (your tiger mouth face toward your opponent). The CON is since it's easier for your opponent to twist his hands "inside out" to against your thumb (1 finger) than to against the other 4 fingers. It gives your opponent a easy way to reverse the situation on you.

- "outside in", the CON is you don't have a good control on your grip (your tiger mouth face toward yourself). The PRO is when your opponent rotates his hand from "inside out", it will automatically leave your hands to be "inside" and "on top". That will be the best tme to move in and control your opponent's elbows.

[mooyingmantis]

There may be some difference between the SC "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" and the prey mantis "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" (as shown in your clip). The SC "螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arms" prefers to control your opponent's elbows instead of wrists. The wrists control in temporary but the elbows control is not.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9705/mantishands.jpg

It may be interest to compare the PRO and CON between grabbing your opponent's wrists from "inside out (as you did in your clip)" and from "outside in".

If you do it from

- "inside out", the PRO is you have better control on your opponent's wrist (your tiger mouth face toward your opponent). The CON is since it's easier for your opponent to twist his hands "inside out" to against your thumb (1 finger) than to against the other 4 fingers. It gives your opponent a easy way to reverse the situation on you.

- "outside in", the CON is you don't have a good control on your grip (your tiger mouth face toward yourself). The PRO is when your opponent rotates his hand from "inside out", it will automatically leave your hands to be "inside" and "on top". That will be the best tme to move in and control your opponent's elbows.

John,
Good points!
I didn't know tanglang shou was a shuaijiao term. Interesting!
BTW, the hook separation is just transitional. It is not held for any length of time. It is just used as a way to open the opponent's arms quickly to shoot in and grab the head.

[EarthDragon]

YKW, I would like to share in 8 step in particular, we may enter seperating the wrists then slide or climb to the elbows then up to the root top of the humerous, under the arm or aroudn to the neck, to get our dominate grip for throwing, perhaps this is what mooying was showing part of?

[YouKnowWho]

YKW, I would like to share in 8 step in particular, we may enter seperating the wrists then slide or climb to the elbows then up to the root top of the humerous, under the arm or aroudn to the neck, to get our dominate grip for throwing, perhaps this is what mooying was showing part of?
Here is my question. If your opponent stands in fighting stance like this, will it be easier for you to get mantis arms from inside out or from outside in? A simple left hook punch (which can hide your grab intention very well) can give you a "outside in" wrist grab on your opponent's leading right arm. How will you get your "inside out" wrist grab on your opponent's leading right arm (when his leading right arm is in a 45 degree angle)?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=fighting+stance&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=fLuodySp0ywiSM:&imgrefurl=http://www.jkdus.com/ByJon.htm&docid=OTBaG95vXuXioM&imgurl=http://www.jkdus.com/images/ByJon.jpg&w=394&h=201&ei=YVy3Tvf-NamjiQL1qJRg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=291&vpy=205&dur=226&hovh=160&hovw=315&tx=136&ty=59&sig=109104337924873506081&page=1&tbnh=97&tbnw=191&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

[EarthDragon]

For me it depends on a few variables. his balance, weight distribution, the angle and or height of his hips and shoulders.

The best way would be to allow him to make the first move, then you make contact using the long hand then listen, circle or coil inward or outward to gain your desired grabbing postition.

It is much easier to work off of his movement, then to presume you can move first to get into your desidered postion.

So I would not say its easier from inside or outside, its depends on what your opponent gives you.

[YouKnowWho]

The best way would be to allow him to make the first move,

Here is our strategies difference. I like to make the 1st move. I don't like my opponent to make the 1st move - too many unknown.

[EarthDragon]

ahh, yes different stratagies for sure.
I am a fighter through and through ring, street, prison, but I always give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent and still consider my skills acting in self defence always.

Also i find it much easier to capitalize on thier mistakes and once they attack its so much eaiser to counter and dominate.

[YouKnowWho]

There is a difference between

1. If you do ..., I'll do ...
2. I do ..., if you response ..., I'll do ...

In the 2nd approach, you will give your opponent less options. If you are familiar with those possible options and have good counters for it, you will be one step ahead of your opponent.

Here is an example that your 1st move is to force your "striker" opponent to play your favor grappling game. His option is very limited at that moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swiMIO62cgQ

If your opponent starts to land his powerful punches on your head (your opponent starts to play his favor striker game), it may be too late for you if you are not a good striker.

[EarthDragon]

In the 2nd approach, you will give your opponent less options. If you are familiar with those possible options and have good counters for it, you will be one step ahead of your opponent.

agreed this is where I was coming from.



If your opponent starts to land his powerful punches on your head (your opponent starts to play his favor striker

so true, you must be proficent and confident in your skill level to be a step ahead.

It is diffucult to react to thier reaction, this will always make you slower and one step behind,
I like to think of 8 step as defensive offence, once they attack you continue to attack until the fight is over, but we always all;ow them to make the first move top open up their defence.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is our strategies difference. I like to make the 1st move. I don't like my opponent to make the 1st move - too many unknown.

My approach is the same. Especially in a self-defense situation.

Legally, an assault is any words or actions that are threatening to you. Battery is when you have actually been physically assaulted.

Between assault and battery is where I respond. I don't give an opponent the luxury of a "first punch".

[ginosifu]

It is diffucult to react to thier reaction, this will always make you slower and one step behind,
I like to think of 8 step as defensive offence, once they attack you continue to attack until the fight is over, but we always all;ow them to make the first move top open up their defence.

I think we all can agree not to react to their reaction. The way I was taught is to:

Continuous Attack Pattern

Continuous attack means to press your opponent with a barrage of offensive techniques that string together. It does not matter what they do, whether it be offensive or defensive, my attack pattern continues on from one technique to the next. The way I teach it is to have 3-5 offensive techniques in your pattern and just practice them on whatever your partner throws at you. Hopefully the student will learn not to try and wait for some type movement from his opponent.

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

gino, here is a list of our 8 Cardinal points, this is what is ingrained into us form the beginnign class and thoughout our training, keepin these simple things in mind, its hard to loose.
THE EIGHT CARDINAL POINT THEORY FOR FIGHTING
1. Continuous movement with each technique giving birth to the next.
2. Close the enemy using the long hand then destroy the enemy at close range with the short hand.
3. Attack high to open the low area and attack low to open the high area.
4. When attacking left defend the right, when attacking right defend the left.
5. Attack and defend simultaneously since all actions are neither exclusively offensive nor defensive.
6. Actions must be natural and reflexive, don’t think act.
7. Stay relaxed and change the stepping pattern.
8. In action there is stillness, in stillness there is action.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Some of these may have been said already but with different terminology:

For Mantis I like to use sticky hand techniques to grab the wrist or elbow (depending on how far up the arm you grab) to pull your opponent into your "space" which can be followed with an elbow strike within clinching range. Also, mantis hook behind the head for control, with the other hand grabbing the arm or overhooking the arm, which sets up nice for throws or knee strikes. Also, double mantis hook behind the head is the same as the plum found in Muay Thai and the results from this clinch can be similar and devastating.

Tiger techniques I find best used after a trap or in the clinch. One good trap into a takedown is cross block a mid or high roundhouse, once the kick is trapped stepping into your opponent, you should be chest to chest, step in and do a major sweep on the supporting leg, calf to calf. Follow your opponent down with Tiger Claw to the throat.

These are a few I like.:)

[Taixuquan99]

Here is my question. If your opponent stands in fighting stance like this, will it be easier for you to get mantis arms from inside out or from outside in? A simple left hook punch (which can hide your grab intention very well) can give you a "outside in" wrist grab on your opponent's leading right arm. How will you get your "inside out" wrist grab on your opponent's leading right arm (when his leading right arm is in a 45 degree angle)?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=fighting+stance&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=fLuodySp0ywiSM:&imgrefurl=http://www.jkdus.com/ByJon.htm&docid=OTBaG95vXuXioM&imgurl=http://www.jkdus.com/images/ByJon.jpg&w=394&h=201&ei=YVy3Tvf-NamjiQL1qJRg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=291&vpy=205&dur=226&hovh=160&hovw=315&tx=136&ty=59&sig=109104337924873506081&page=1&tbnh=97&tbnw=191&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

I find that most of the time I get an inside out grip, if I'm understanding your terminology correctly, it is actually by going underneath his arms with mine. It usually occurs when we're both fighting for grip anyway, and he goes for my lapel or neck, but I shift forward and my arms bridge underneath his as they move up and forward, bridging underneath his arms and shifting to the inside and then out.

As far as doing it offensively(not as a response to his grab), I think I often am pretty deep in his footwork when I do it, so that I can really press his rear shoulder on the inside in order to limit his options, but most often, I go to inside after setup that involves working the outside.

In discussion of wrist grabs, it gets interesting. I certainly mostly go for definitive techniques on solely wrist grabs if my opponent really can be overextended by it. Otherwise, I'm trying to make openings.

THE ORIGINAL QUESTION

A move I like that uses essentially the same hand structure you're talking about(mantis) starts out like I stated above, if they are incoming, say striking chest level or above or going to grip or clinch the upper body, I shift forward and my hands bridge from underneath, going upward, then I shift slightly back, pulling them upward slightly more and backward, then I shift in, getting my lead leg past their's and moving their upper body behind their stance for a takedown. If I can secure my lead leg behind their's, this can also be good.