The Eight Kicks of Wing Chun

[blackjesus]

I heard of this terms and read from the book about Sifu Duncan Leung?
Which 8 kicks are they and which forms are they from?

[Phil Redmond]

I heard of this terms and read from the book about Sifu Duncan Leung?
Which 8 kicks are they and which forms are they from?
There are lots of things in WC that aren't in the forms.

[LoneTiger108]

There are lots of things in WC that aren't in the forms.

So true :)

But as far as I know, all the legwork for Wing Chun is in either the empty hand, wooden man or weaponry forms. I just don't believe in 'waiting' until you learn these forms to be exposed to the legwork! We have separate drills for such things...

Check out Joys post on the Ng Chan thread
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1141265&postcount=835

[Eric_H]

It's not wing chun, but it's a great overall look at kung fu kicking methods.

http://yinstylebaguazhang.com/footwork_ordering.html

[YouKnowWho]

Kick is just kick. I don't believe there is a such thing as WC kicks and none WC kick.

The author Lee Ying Arng was a Taiji guy. He didn't label his 24 kicks as Taiji 24 kicks but genaral TCMA kicks.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_kicking.htm

[Phil Redmond]

Kick is just kick. I don't believe there is a such thing as WC kicks and none WC kick.

The author Lee Ying Arng was a Taiji guy. He didn't label his 24 kicks as Taiji 24 kicks but genaral TCMA kicks.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_kicking.htm
That kind of thinking is frowned upon. Good job....:)

[k gledhill]

VT kicking follows a 'line' of thought ;)

[deejaye72]

i heard about eight kicks at the end of the dummy form, but never learned them, dont know if thats the same thing every ones talking about

[Ardhi]

The 8 WC kicks as taught By D. Leung:

1.Tiu gerk
2.Dung gerk
3.Joh gerk
4.Chai gerk
5Chang gerk
6.Dang gerk
7.Tan gerk
8.Soh gerk

[LoneTiger108]

i heard about eight kicks at the end of the dummy form, but never learned them, dont know if thats the same thing every ones talking about

I heard the same too, but not that they're at the 'end', they're hidden within the form itself. Like the stepping really. Very hard to learn from a book lol!!

My kung fu uncle Austin Goh teaches a Sup Look Gerk Fut form (16 kicking methods) and my Sifu teaches a Moi Faa Mook Jong set (Plum Flower Wooden Man) that also contains all our legwork. Both look a little different but are fundamentally the same imho.

I find it interesing that even the 'terms' of such stuff (which I thought was common knowledge!) varys from family to family. It still looks like it's a well kept 'secret' from where I'm standing :cool:

[Graham H]

VT kicking follows a 'line' of thought ;)

They are too hidden and secret for us Kev. LOL

G

[k gledhill]

They are too hidden and secret for us Kev. LOL

G

Point to point...

[LoneTiger108]

They are too hidden and secret for us Kev. LOL

G

With all due respect G, I don't think I have ever even seen you interested in the language or culture of Wing Chun so I presume you couldn't care less for the terms everyone has shared here either! :eek:

AND I have yet to see any clip of any WSL guys using kicks, so you must have your own secrets too lol! ;)

[deejaye72]

kick me! lol

[deejaye72]

i never thought they were a secret, just the more advanced guys were practicing it when i was a beginner, i just never thought to ask, i will ask my dad about them when i go to class. spencer it was probably just a way to practice them in a sequence for training like you said, no big deal

[deejaye72]

spencer your right i dont see wsl guys doing any kicking lol:) willian cheung guys do alot though :):)

[Yoshiyahu]

Eight Leg Dummy Motions, for the eight kicks are drilled on the Wooden Dummy. The exponent holds his fists and stands facing Mook Yan Jong. Using the Dummy and "one leg at a time, "the eight motions are executed; changing legs, the drill is repeated. The techniques can be described thus:


1. Low Front Kick (Dai Jing Gerk).
2. Front Kick (Jing Gerk).
3. Side Kick (Waang Gerk).
4. Low Side Kick (Dai Waang Gerk).
5. Instep Kick (Gerk Booie).
6. Outside Snap Kick (Gaan Gerk).
7. Upward Knee (Hay Sut).
8. Scraping Kick (Yaai Gerk).



Wing Chun's Eight Kicks are offensive leg maneuvers which introduce simple kicking skills. Upon examination, each kick demonstrates a striking area of the foot (or leg). Accordingly, eight points are utilized in the kicks described. Thus, a Low Front Kick (Dai Jing Gerk) connects near the centre of the foot; the Front Kick (Jing Gerk) employs a point above the heel. A Side Kick (Waang Gerk) demands an off-centre heel strike; the Low Side Kick (Dai Waang Gerk) uses the direct centre. The Instep (Gerk Booie) is easily described, while Outside Snap (Gaan Gerk) utilizes the outer heel. Upward Knee (Hay Sut) connects above the kneecap; Scraping Kick (Yai Gerk) uses the outside of the foot, etc.

This drill introduces primary kicking techniques as well as demonstrating striking areas for the foot. It should be noted that four angular positions are presented: the Side Kicks (Waang Gerk), Outside Snap (Gaan Gerk), and Scraping Kick (Yaai Gerk). All movements are executed slightly sideways. This suggests Wing Chun is hardly lacking in essential kicking maneuvers.

According to Wing Chun theory, the Front Kick (Jing Gerk) and Single Leg Stance (Gum Gai Duk Lop), on which the former is based, remain the ideal foundation for all subsequent leg application. It is said, "Sticky Legs practice is inseparable from the Single Leg stance." In this regard, an instructor may claim to use just "one punch, one kick." (But with eight variations thereof.) However, this does remind us of the importance of simplicity in all areas of Wing Chun training and practice.





in addition to that!

there are eight kicking principles and twelve leg blocks

[Phil Redmond]

spencer your right i dont see wsl guys doing any kicking lol:) willian cheung guys do alot though :):)
There probably are some WSL students fighting clips but I haven't seen any. I've seen forms and chi sau/o but no fighting. If there are some please direct me to them. They would be great to see. My Sifu says that WSL was a great fighter and I would like to see what his students have done regarding fighting resisting opponents.

[Graham H]

With all due respect G, I don't think I have ever even seen you interested in the language or culture of Wing Chun so I presume you couldn't care less for the terms everyone has shared here either! :eek:

AND I have yet to see any clip of any WSL guys using kicks, so you must have your own secrets too lol! ;)

Wrong! I am very interested in the language and culture of Wing Chun and have spoken to people who are considered authorities on it. That's why I think most of it is fabricated nonsense and I only beleive in the facts. In the world of Wing Chun there aren't many facts. People will pretty much beleive anything especially if a chinaman is telling a gwai lo. We love a bit of all that jazz.

.......but you are right.......I couldn't care less about Wing Chun today. Only within my lineage. Until I see something else I think is an improvement then I will stay. Why else should I move on? As yet, apart from Kev, Sean and a few others that I can count on one hand most of the stuff on this forum is pants.

......my opinion!

As for kicking...........kicking in a fight can leave one in a vulnerable situation. We don't kick above the waist and kicking generally momentarily effects our balance. Humans spent years evloving from 4 feet to 2 and I can't see it going to 1. Gravity won't allow it.

In VT there is only one kick. A short direct kick from point A to point B just like the punch. The concpepts of why and how to kick are presented in the forms. Obviously what is contained in those forms varies massively from branch to branch and yet most of them apparently originated from one man only a matter of decades ago. You do the math!

Tan Gerks, Bong Gerks etc etc etc are for dreamers just like chi gerk.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

As for kicking...........kicking in a fight can leave one in a vulnerable situation. We don't kick above the waist and kicking generally momentarily effects our balance. Humans spent years evloving from 4 feet to 2 and I can't see it going to 1. Gravity won't allow it.

Your logic is astounding :confused:

But each to their own, and at least I got you to admit you have an interest in the language and culture of Wing Chun!! ;) :D

[Yoshiyahu]

The wing chun kicks are simple.

Every TCMA has kicks. If you just follow the princples of WC when it comes to kicking you will do great.

Kicking should be taught separately and drilled upon.

The forms alone dont teach you how to kick. You have isolate the kicks. Break them down. Drill them and attempt to utilize them in sparring so you can learn the weaknesses and strengths of each kick.

[Grumblegeezer]

... apart from Kev, Sean and a few others that I can count on one hand most of the stuff on this forum is pants.

Pants? what does that mean? I thought pants were good. I wear them often.



As for kicking...........kicking in a fight can leave one in a vulnerable situation. We don't kick above the waist and kicking generally momentarily effects our balance. Humans spent years evloving from 4 feet to 2 and I can't see it going to 1. Gravity won't allow it.

In VT there is only one kick. A short direct kick from point A to point B just like the punch...
Tan Gerks, Bong Gerks etc etc etc are for dreamers just like chi gerk. GH

OK now you've got me conflicted. On one hand, I agree that wing chun is about simplicty and practicality. Personally, I prefer to keep my feet solidly rooted on the ground, and if I do kick it's a simple straight shot, as you put it, "from A to B". That's it. There's no need to complicate things. I cringe when Yoshi posts about 8 kicks, 8 kicking principles and 12 leg blocks.

On the other hand, I personally know individuals who can apply their legs much like I apply my hands... accomplishing the footwork equivalent of wu, pak, tan, and bong as well as striking. I've been on the receiving end of some of those leg attacks and it was no dream, ...more like a nightmare, at least for me! As for chi-gherk, it's just a sort of dan-chi done with the legs. Don't see the problem.

[k gledhill]

Pants? what does that mean? I thought pants were good. I wear them often.




OK now you've got me conflicted. On one hand, I agree that wing chun is about simplicty and practicality. Personally, I prefer to keep my feet solidly rooted on the ground, and if I do kick it's a simple straight shot, as you put it, "from A to B". That's it. There's no need to complicate things. I cringe when Yoshi posts about 8 kicks, 8 kicking principles and 12 leg blocks.

On the other hand, I personally know individuals who can apply their legs much like I apply my hands... accomplishing the footwork equivalent of wu, pak, tan, and bong as well as striking. I've been on the receiving end of some of those leg attacks and it was no dream, ...more like a nightmare, at least for me! As for chi-gherk, it's just a sort of dan-chi done with the legs. Don't see the problem.

On the 'sticky leg' issue... dan chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity or feeling, it is to introduce the elbows as a means to combine both striking and deflecting ability on the outside gate and inside gate of the leading attacking arm. This is further to our fighting idea of man sao ~ wu sao ...as each arm cycles it has to have the capacity to maintain both attacking alignment to the center [1cm death] AND defensive gate protection to our centers.

Never are we encouraged to stick to and follow an arm, we do lat sao chit cheung drills to ensure when the hand is free it shoots forwards [elbow centered] and hits.

If the arm on being freed, follows the other partners arm its a MISTAKE we deliberately weed out with each other.

SOooo :D by the same logic TRYING to recreate the sticky legs is redundant thinking based on misinformed isolated delusions with complying partners.

Sensitivity to incorrect lines of force towards us is a by-product of the drilling, iow we become aware of wrong lines of force relative to our trained force lines, ie if you X , push up, down etc...we can cycle through the force using the chain punch, and use the leading chain punching arm to also be a 'second' set of hands freeing up the rear hand to act as a new strike rather than double teaming one arm ....:D

[wingchunIan]

personally I love chi gerk. It is a drill and when you really start working the legs as part of the arsenal its purpose becomes abundantly clear. The ability to flow from tan gerk or bong gerk into a kick to the supporting leg only comes from practice. The same thing can of course be trained other ways but it makes me smile when people dismiss chi gerk.

[k gledhill]

personally I love chi gerk. It is a drill and when you really start working the legs as part of the arsenal its purpose becomes abundantly clear. The ability to flow from tan gerk or bong gerk into a kick to the supporting leg only comes from practice. The same thing can of course be trained other ways but it makes me smile when people dismiss chi gerk.

Not smiling as much as me :D

[couch]

I personally see value in Chi Gerk as well. The way I was taught it and the way I practice it has helped me ingrain the maxim, "Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot; there is no unstoppable technique."

Chi Gerk, when done correctly wires the brain so that when an opponent lifts their leg to kick, I do too (among a couple of other things depending on lineage).

Chi Gerk also helps to program 'taking' the centre when the foot is placed down on the floor.

[k gledhill]

I personally see value in Chi Gerk as well. The way I was taught it and the way I practice it has helped me ingrain the maxim, "Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot; there is no unstoppable technique."

Chi Gerk, when done correctly wires the brain so that when an opponent lifts their leg to kick, I do too (among a couple of other things depending on lineage).

Chi Gerk also helps to program 'taking' the centre when the foot is placed down on the floor.



Maxims can be misinterpreted.
Using a kick to a leg doesn't make it 'sticking' leg or chi-gerk.
Responding to a 'kick' by lifting yours is a bad habit....What do you lose by standing on one leg ? mobility.

[Graham H]

Your logic is astounding :confused:


true and will not be understood by idiots. ;)
G

[Graham H]

Pants? what does that mean? I thought pants were good. I wear them often.

It's an english slng term for rubbishness! ;):)



OK now you've got me conflicted. On one hand, I agree that wing chun is about simplicty and practicality. Personally, I prefer to keep my feet solidly rooted on the ground, and if I do kick it's a simple straight shot, as you put it, "from A to B". That's it. There's no need to complicate things. I cringe when Yoshi posts about 8 kicks, 8 kicking principles and 12 leg blocks.

I cringe at every Yoshi post.


On the other hand, I personally know individuals who can apply their legs much like I apply my hands... accomplishing the footwork equivalent of wu, pak, tan, and bong as well as striking. I've been on the receiving end of some of those leg attacks and it was no dream, ...more like a nightmare, at least for me! As for chi-gherk, it's just a sort of dan-chi done with the legs. Don't see the problem.

Each to their own.

G

[Graham H]

SOooo :D by the same logic TRYING to recreate the sticky legs is redundant thinking based on misinformed isolated delusions with complying partners.


Couldn't have put it better myself.

G

[Graham H]

personally I love chi gerk. It is a drill and when you really start working the legs as part of the arsenal its purpose becomes abundantly clear. The ability to flow from tan gerk or bong gerk into a kick to the supporting leg only comes from practice. The same thing can of course be trained other ways but it makes me smile when people dismiss chi gerk.

I trained chi gerk for years when I was in the Ip Chun lineage. I left....you do the math.

GH

[Graham H]

I personally see value in Chi Gerk as well. The way I was taught it and the way I practice it has helped me ingrain the maxim, "Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot; there is no unstoppable technique."

Chi Gerk, when done correctly wires the brain so that when an opponent lifts their leg to kick, I do too (among a couple of other things depending on lineage).

Chi Gerk also helps to program 'taking' the centre when the foot is placed down on the floor.

IMO................more wing chun nonsense. :rolleyes:

GH

[bennyvt]

I would say their are two kicks, one with the toes pointed in and one with the toes pointing out. How you use them are varied. I only tend to use them when I can't get in range and while I am attacking with them the idea is more as a block to their low kicks until I van get in. Or to slow people down or just to get them looking for the kick.
I don't use the real close stuff when with shooters or mma guys as it increases the change if close like a clinch to get taken down.

[wingchunIan]

Responding to a 'kick' by lifting yours is a bad habit....What do you lose by standing on one leg ? mobility.

MT fighters the world over would beg to differ:)

[k gledhill]

MT fighters the world over would beg to differ:)

We arent MT fighters ;) We dont take/accept hits on the lead leg by a different way of thinking and standing. Why do you think we adopt a side stance in a face off and not a lead leg stance ?
Or let me rephrase that, why do you think I dont stand in a lead leg stance facing a guy who does MT leg kicks or shoots for single leg take downs ?

You leave it out there and use it to do your chi-gerk mate, not my concern.

[LoneTiger108]

Man, Kev you play a hard game when you start describing what it is you DO do ;)

So, with respect, read through your own post and see where I have switched words around because the way you approach your chisau training soould be the same way you approach your chigerk training.

Makes sense to me...


On the 'sticky leg' issue... dan chi-gerk is not to develop sensitivity or feeling, it is to introduce the knees as a means to combine both striking and deflecting ability on the outside gate and inside gate of the leading attacking leg. This is further to our fighting idea of man gerk ~ wu gerk ...as each leg cycles it has to have the capacity to maintain both attacking alignment to the center [1cm death] AND defensive gate protection to our centers.

Never are we encouraged to stick to and follow a leg, we do lat sao chit cheung drills to ensure when the foot is free it shoots forwards [knee centered] and hits.

Catch my drift??? ;)

I will ask you one question, because you mention sacrificing your mobility by being on one leg.

How do you move dude??? How can you be mobile with both feet firmly on the floor?

I'm getting images of you sliding evenly across the room like a Vampire on a skateboard because you refuse to lift a foot off the ground to walk!!! :eek: :D

[Graham H]

MT fighters the world over would beg to differ:)

MT fighters fight in a ring with a referees and rules. Ving Tsun has a different idea to MT so why make comparisons?

I have seen an MT fighter have a brawl outside a club. There wasn't much MT going on thats for sure.

Ving Tsun's idea is to render the opponent unable to continue by the quickest means. Neck punching and chopping, eye gouging and kicks to the groin are not allowed in the ring. These methods I would rely on to win the fight. Once you add restrictions, padding to your limbs and timed rounds you are taking away the things Ving Tsun utilizes.

I won't be standing on one leg trying to kick a guy to death. Maybe a kick to divert attention or bring the hands down but most of the time stopping him in his tracks. If that is not possible then run for your life. If you can't escape then a short stay in hospital may be on the cards.

..............in short don't make comparisons to MMA, MT, or any other style that has rules.

Leave the kick boxing wing chun to the kick boxers. LOL

GH

[k gledhill]

Man, Kev you play a hard game when you start describing what it is you DO do ;)

So, with respect, read through your own post and see where I have switched words around because the way you approach your chisau training soould be the same way you approach your chigerk training.

Makes sense to me...



Catch my drift??? ;)

I will ask you one question, because you mention sacrificing your mobility by being on one leg.

How do you move dude??? How can you be mobile with both feet firmly on the floor?

I'm getting images of you sliding evenly across the room like a Vampire on a skateboard because you refuse to lift a foot off the ground to walk!!! :eek: :D

Whatever floats your boat, if you think I am going to change your thinking to make me happy forget it :D you do your sticky leg, sticky pole, sticky knife, sticky dummy.....center that knee infront of you in a lead leg stance and charge in with an eggbeater punch :D

[LoneTiger108]

Whatever floats your boat, if you think I am going to change your thinking to make me happy forget it :D you do your sticky leg, sticky pole, sticky knife, sticky dummy.....center that knee infront of you in a lead leg stance and charge in with an eggbeater punch :D

Ah! Of course, I forgot I was an eggbeater :eek:

If you can't make any sense of your own words I can't change your thinking either! And BTW, you should know that I'm not trying to change your thinking.

You're a grown boy now and should be capable of that yourself...

[k gledhill]

Ah! Of course, I forgot I was an eggbeater :eek:

If you can't make any sense of your own words I can't change your thinking either! And BTW, you should know that I'm not trying to change your thinking.

You're a grown boy now and should be capable of that yourself...

Waste of time....:rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Waste of time....:rolleyes:

I know you have dude! :rolleyes:

You should be an expert at 'change' by now ;) One more time aint gonna kill ya!! :D

[k gledhill]

I know you have dude! :rolleyes:

You should be an expert at 'change' by now ;) One more time aint gonna kill ya!! :D

You are clueless....

[LoneTiger108]

You are clueless....

We can all throw the insults Kev, but as I'm trying to be more peaceful I will accept yours and move on happy :D

[Yoshiyahu]

It's an english slng term for rubbishness! ;):)



I cringe at every Yoshi post.



Each to their own.

G

when i posted about the eight kicks....why cringe...


Thats not even my opinion...Its a Qoute

I purposely qouted someone else so no one could talk sheesh!

[Grumblegeezer]

On the 'sticky leg' issue... dan chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity or feeling, it is to introduce the elbows as a means to combine both striking and deflecting ability on the outside gate and inside gate of the leading attacking arm...

If you apply this logic to legs, the knee is analogous to the elbow. Good leg-work, by any name, should accomplish the same things you mentioned. The knee should protect your center, and wedge forward deflecting attacks to the inside and outside gates of your leading leg. Very simple and effective.


Never are we encouraged to stick to and follow an arm, we do lat sao chit cheung drills to ensure when the hand is free it shoots forwards [elbow centered] and hits... If the arm on being freed, follows the other partners arm its a MISTAKE we deliberately weed out with each other.

Likewise, good leg-work should never follow or chase legs. Cover center, and shoot forward when the way is free.

As far as mobility goes, if you keep in mind the saying, "Every step a kick, and every kick a step", there is no reason to sacrifice mobility for kicking. Now if you try to play overly complicated chi-gherk games, that's another thing. In short, Kevin, I think we mostly agree... if that's possible coming from different WC branches. Hmmmm.

[k gledhill]

If you apply this logic to legs, the knee is analogous to the elbow. Good leg-work, by any name, should accomplish the same things you mentioned. The knee should protect your center, and wedge forward deflecting attacks to the inside and outside gates of your leading leg. Very simple and effective.



Likewise, good leg-work should never follow or chase legs. Cover center, and shoot forward when the way is free.

As far as mobility goes, if you keep in mind the saying, "Every step a kick, and every kick a step", there is no reason to sacrifice mobility for kicking. Now if you try to play overly complicated chi-gherk games, that's another thing. In short, Kevin, I think we mostly agree... if that's possible coming from different WC branches. Hmmmm.


We can agree in principle but details...:)

No the elbow is centered along the center-line and the wrists cross this center-line for a different idea/concept intercepting fist....not the same with the knee or the ankle ( see YGKYM stance ) , even basic kicking drills knees are out, the knee is turned outwards slightly to allow the heel to make contact first in straight line. This also holds true for kicking with shoes on, brogues, etc...or you kick guys with toes first, dont ask me how I know this or I will be forced to recall a fight memory with no clip to prove it. ;)

I know some use toes and knees straight. :rolleyes:

The foot travels point to point directly front kick or side kick and any combo, height.

[YouKnowWho]

Any of you guys train "sticky leg"?

[Vajramusti]

Any of you guys train "sticky leg"?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One has to know some details to do sticky leg motions and drills properly. Many people just make up their sticky legs.

BTW-- not enough distinction is made between development of some wing chun skills and
applying wing chun principles and reflexes in action. Practicing all the kicks does NOT mean you apply them all the time. The kicks help you loosen up properly and understand angles, lines and use of timing and balance... in a wing chun way.

joy chaudhuri

[Grumblegeezer]

We can agree in principle but details...:) True enough. We will disagree on details, and details are very important. Still, I'd bet that we share the same core principles.


No the elbow is centered along the center-line and the wrists cross this center-line for a different idea/concept intercepting fist....not the same with the knee or the ankle ( see YGKYM stance ) , even basic kicking drills knees are out, the knee is turned outwards slightly to allow the heel to make contact first in straight line. This also holds true for kicking with shoes on, brogues, etc...

OK, I agree 100% here. When I mentioned knee covering center, I was thinking of the stance as we advance. I also turn the knee outward when thrusting the kick forward.


The foot travels point to point directly front kick or side kick and any combo, height.

IMHO also, this is the best way to kick.

My old sifu did not teach this. At the basic level, he had students lift the foot straight up and then thrust forward, as though kicking over a low box, although I admit that the direct A to B method you describe makes much more sense to me. The logic behind the kicking method taught by my old sifu was akin to why we deliver the front punch as we do in Siu Nim Tau vs Biu Tze. In SNT you first pull it over to a centered chamber, then deliver a centerline punch. Very robotic and not so efficient, even when grabbing the inside gate. In Chum Kiu and, especially, in Biu Tze, the motion is more streamlined, direct and efficient. Similarly, the kicks start out in a more exaggeratedly articulated form, but become more streamlined in his system as you reach a higher level. So it's really not so different at all. Just that I don't see the reason for waiting that long to do it the best way. Oh there are some arguments in favor of practicing the "basic method" first, people say that the chamber provides a guard, or defense, etc., etc... whatever. You get my point. Still, rather than argue so much over "right vs. wrong" I'd rather have a dialogue over what gives the best results and why. It's so much more ....informative.

[k gledhill]

True enough. We will disagree on details, and details are very important. Still, I'd bet that we share the same core principles.



OK, I agree 100% here. When I mentioned knee covering center, I was thinking of the stance as we advance. I also turn the knee outward when thrusting the kick forward.



IMHO also, this is the best way to kick.

My old sifu did not teach this. At the basic level, he had students lift the foot straight up and then thrust forward, as though kicking over a low box, although I admit that the direct A to B method you describe makes much more sense to me. The logic behind the kicking method taught by my old sifu was akin to why we deliver the front punch as we do in Siu Nim Tau vs Biu Tze. In SNT you first pull it over to a centered chamber, then deliver a centerline punch. Very robotic and not so efficient, even when grabbing the inside gate. In Chum Kiu and, especially, in Biu Tze, the motion is more streamlined, direct and efficient. Similarly, the kicks start out in a more exaggeratedly articulated form, but become more streamlined in his system as you reach a higher level. So it's really not so different at all. Just that I don't see the reason for waiting that long to do it the best way. Oh there are some arguments in favor of practicing the "basic method" first, people say that the chamber provides a guard, or defense, etc., etc... whatever. You get my point. Still, rather than argue so much over "right vs. wrong" I'd rather have a dialogue over what gives the best results and why. It's so much more ....informative.

its not easy to teach...I make guys lift foot with heel skimming low to ground before kicking rather than draw up ...here is a WSL diagram ...
1 is a lift and kick sending force backwards
2 is a circle, I caught a mad scotsmans foot like this outside a bar one night ; )
3 VT point to point force a-b , requires good hips and stance , balance...

Movement is the best guard, lateral shifting , offside angling rather than being caught on one leg defending goin gback and forth in straight lines ...we can always step back from the leg up, but your not in the best situation as taking a flank already or attacking with it [kick], rather than being the defender...back to basic attack as defense.

[Yoshiyahu]

Its hard to see what his leg is doing...is he hitting with his shin?


its not easy to teach...I make guys lift foot with heel skimming low to ground before kicking rather than draw up ...here is a WSL diagram ...
1 is a lift and kick sending force backwards
2 is a circle, I caught a mad scotsmans foot like this outside a bar one night ; )
3 VT point to point force a-b , requires good hips and stance , balance...

Movement is the best guard, lateral shifting , offside angling rather than being caught on one leg defending goin gback and forth in straight lines ...we can always step back from the leg up, but your not in the best situation as a taking a flank already or attacking with it, rather than being the defender...back to basic attack as defense.

[k gledhill]

Its hard to see what his leg is doing...is he hitting with his shin?

heel to heel : direct force line, like you placed a broomstick from rear foot to lead foot and followed the path to the target [visual aid].
The supporting foot is grounded as ygkym no leaning body to telegraph. You can make one kick hit multiple available targets on the 'broomstick' line a-b , iow I might meet your ankle, shin [stop kick], knee, thigh, groin, abdomen, as the 'line of force' a-b is delivered by the heel.
Depends what leg leads from opponent, my angle to them facing, distance, timing... ? attacking , counter angling off line....like dummy.

in diagram 3...A is the supporting foot on ground B is kicking with heel.

[Grumblegeezer]

its not easy to teach...I make guys lift foot with heel skimming low to ground before kicking rather than draw up ...here is a WSL diagram ...
1 is a lift and kick sending force backwards
2 is a circle, I caught a mad scotsmans foot like this outside a bar one night ; )
3 VT point to point force a-b , requires good hips and stance , balance...



Thanks. Those diagrams are very useful. I remember seeing WSL demonstrating this same theory in a video. However, to be fair to the other perspective, I can say from experience that it is quite possible to lift the leg first and then thrust forward (as in diagram 1) but to direct the "rebound" force down through your rooted foot (as in diagram 3). Even so, it just seems harder and less efficient to me under normal circumstances. I vote for direct "A to B".

[k gledhill]

Direct kick doesnt mean we have to be front and center either...as the image shows. We can apply pak sao angling and kick...
Plus a clip of the angling and speeds using hands alone so you can see the action rather than poses with kicks P Bayer : Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc&feature=related)

[k gledhill]

Wong Shun Leung Himself explaining the kick is straight inside the groin... point to point...

CLIP: YM/WSL > FRONT KICK (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=122874797774627)

[k gledhill]

Yip Man in another B&W film....:) and a few pic from forms:



Yip Man front kick Clip (http://www.lomankamwingchun.com/videos/watch-video/qa9BUVPZ8-c/rogernet2/yip-man-wooden-dummy-kick.html)

[nasmedicine]

its not easy to teach...I make guys lift foot with heel skimming low to ground before kicking rather than draw up ...here is a WSL diagram ...
1 is a lift and kick sending force backwards
2 is a circle, I caught a mad scotsmans foot like this outside a bar one night ; )
3 VT point to point force a-b , requires good hips and stance , balance...

Movement is the best guard, lateral shifting , offside angling rather than being caught on one leg defending goin gback and forth in straight lines ...we can always step back from the leg up, but your not in the best situation as taking a flank already or attacking with it [kick], rather than being the defender...back to basic attack as defense.

very nice visualizations, wish more posts were like this. Did you create those or is that a scan from a book?

[k gledhill]

very nice visualizations, wish more posts were like this. Did you create those or is that a scan from a book?

I threw it together from the interweb.

[WC1277]

Good chi gerk is practiced very similarly in the way of the examples I gave in the "This is not WC" thread. It's about connecting to the others center of gravity and making them lean on your wall. Kicks should very rarely be used in application with WC. Chi gerk is less about kicking and more about incoming force from the opponents kick. Proper WC kicks are not felt or seen only when a WC structure is balancing the center of gravity of the opponent. This is what should be the pursuit of chi gerk.

[k gledhill]

Good chi gerk is practiced very similarly in the way of the examples I gave in the "This is not WC" thread. It's about connecting to the others center of gravity and making them lean on your wall. Kicks should very rarely be used in application with WC. Chi gerk is less about kicking and more about incoming force from the opponents kick. Proper WC kicks are not felt or seen only when a WC structure is balancing the center of gravity of the opponent. This is what should be the pursuit of chi gerk.

..... there is no attempt to stick to or follow arms, so by the same logic there is no chi-gerk either ?

[WC1277]

..... there is no attempt to stick to or follow arms, so by the same logic there is no chi-gerk either ?

Stick and follow are two different things. To stick to someone is not to chase or follow but to simply connect to one's center of gravity. The only way to connect to one's center is to have your own center. It's really as simple as that yet probably the most convoluted aspect of WC. Think of it this way. Imagine a brick on the ground that you're trying to slide any direction you want with, say a pencil for example. The pencil doesn't have to be straight and perpendicular to move the brick. You could turn it to an angle and still push the brick if you have the center of gravity of the brick. The only thing that matters is that the pencil maintains it's "structure" or form. If you don't have the center of gravity of the brick, what happens? It twists. It can hit you. You can push the brick as a unit at any point on the brick and you can have your pencil at any angle as well. Why? Because you're connected to the center of gravity. The only thing that matters is your structure(the pencil). That is "sticking". Whoever has the center has the advantage, hence the roll in chi sau is neutral not only in attack/defense lines but more importantly neutral center of gravity. The person who gets hit, is not because of his technique but because he didn't remain "centered". He will "fall" into the one who maintains center regardless of whether his arms and body are "superficially" aligned correctly. This is the epidemy of "glass technique.". Chi gerk works off of the same principle.

[WC1277]

This also is what the phrase 'always go forward' in WC applies to. On the outside people think that it just means "never go back"(some systems actually have no retreating footwork) or by just maintaining "forward momentum" one can blast through and overwhelm the opponent. What it's actually referring to is what some have correctly concluded, "forward intent". When someone isn't connected to your center of gravity but you're connected to there's, they're "leaning on your wall". They will "fall" into you when they move. In the same note, you can only maintain you're "wall" with forward intent other wise you would "fall" into them. Hence Ma Bo Chi Sau clearly shows if done correctly, you can move in any direction without going backwards but with "forward intent". You don't move backwards on your own and so not violating the principle. You retain forward intent and the opponent moves you back. The pencil can't move the brick if it pulls away but it can move the brick if the brick moves it first.

[k gledhill]

Stick and follow are two different things. To stick to someone is not to chase or follow but to simply connect to one's center of gravity. The only way to connect to one's center is to have your own center. It's really as simple as that yet probably the most convoluted aspect of WC. Think of it this way. Imagine a brick on the ground that you're trying to slide any direction you want with, say a pencil for example. The pencil doesn't have to be straight and perpendicular to move the brick. You could turn it to an angle and still push the brick if you have the center of gravity of the brick. The only thing that matters is that the pencil maintains it's "structure" or form. If you don't have the center of gravity of the brick, what happens? It twists. It can hit you. You can push the brick as a unit at any point on the brick and you can have your pencil at any angle as well. Why? Because you're connected to the center of gravity. The only thing that matters is your structure(the pencil). That is "sticking". Whoever has the center has the advantage, hence the roll in chi sau is neutral not only in attack/defense lines but more importantly neutral center of gravity. The person who gets hit, is not because of his technique but because he didn't remain "centered". He will "fall" into the one who maintains center regardless of whether his arms and body are "superficially" aligned correctly. This is the epidemy of "glass technique.". Chi gerk works off of the same principle.


This also is what the phrase 'always go forward' in WC applies to. On the outside people think that it just means "never go back"(some systems actually have no retreating footwork) or by just maintaining "forward momentum" one can blast through and overwhelm the opponent. What it's actually referring to is what some have correctly concluded, "forward intent". When someone isn't connected to your center of gravity but you're connected to there's, they're "leaning on your wall". They will "fall" into you when they move. In the same note, you can only maintain you're "wall" with forward intent other wise you would "fall" into them. Hence Ma Bo Chi Sau clearly shows if done correctly, you can move in any direction without going backwards but with "forward intent". You don't move backwards on your own and so not violating the principle. You retain forward intent and the opponent moves you back. The pencil can't move the brick if it pulls away but it can move the brick if the brick moves it first.

There is no chi-gerk....you dont stick to legs, or try to control them. Trying to draw a similarity to arms is baseless, a common misconception due to misinformed drilling ideas.

[WC1277]

There is no chi-gerk....you dont stick to legs, or try to control them. Trying to draw a similarity to arms is baseless, a common misconception due to misinformed drilling ideas.

It's actually a very simple concept but the complexity arises in the implication of drills. If you don't fully grasp the concept, one will never be able to design a competent drill to address it. So, the first part of anything is the understanding....

[YouKnowWho]

Is "sticky leg" useful?

Before you learn foot sweep, you have to learn the "sticky leg" first. When you sweep your opponent's leg, your opponent may raise his leg and escape out of it. If you can change your "hard foot sweep" to "soft sticky sweep", and use your instep to "stick" to his ankle, The higher that he raises his foot, the higher that you raise yours. If you hop in with a little downward pulling on his shoulder, he will be down.

The "sticky leg" can also be used for defense. Your opponent sweeps you, you bend your leg at your knee joint to let your opponent's leg to pass below your leg, you then use "sticky leg" to sweep back at his sweeping leg.

The "sticky leg" can also be used in "shin bite". The easiest way (the least effort) to take your opponnet down. That's the "leg bridge". If your leg touch your opponent's leg, you can sense his leg intention. That will give you a lot of useful information (just like your "arm bridge").

[Vajramusti]

Is "sticky leg" useful?

Before you learn foot sweep, you have to learn the "sticky leg" first. When you sweep your opponent's leg, your opponent may raise his leg and escape out of it. If you can change your "hard foot sweep" to "soft sticky sweep", and use your instep to "stick" to his ankle, The higher that he raises his foot, the higher that you raise yours. If you hop in with a little downward pulling on his shoulder, he will be down.

The "sticky leg" can also be used for defense. Your opponent sweeps you, you bend your leg at your knee joint to let your opponent's leg to pass below your leg, you then use "sticky leg" to sweep back at his sweeping leg.

The "sticky leg" can also be used in "shin bite". The easiest way (the least effort) to take your opponnet down. That's the "leg bridge". If your leg touch your opponent's leg, you can sense his leg intention. That will give you a lot of useful information (just like your "arm bridge").
---------------------------------------------------------

a sensible post.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1143934]Stick and follow are two different things. To stick to someone is not to chase or follow but to simply connect to one's center of gravity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An important distinction. Sticking(often appropriate) and chasing hands (seldom appropriate) are
two different things.

[k gledhill]

It's actually a very simple concept but the complexity arises in the implication of drills. If you don't fully grasp the concept, one will never be able to design a competent drill to address it. So, the first part of anything is the understanding....

.... your trying to rationalize 'your' thinking to do a redundant drill. You dont understand chi-sao and its redundant factors to actual use in fighting.

I am just replying rather than ignoring so guys dont think 'your personal' redundant ideas are valid to fighting with Ving Tsun .

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1143934]Stick and follow are two different things. To stick to someone is not to chase or follow but to simply connect to one's center of gravity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An important distinction. Sticking(often appropriate) and chasing hands (seldom appropriate) are
two different things.

Do you stick to the dummy arms ? just curious .

[k gledhill]

Is "sticky leg" useful?

Before you learn foot sweep, you have to learn the "sticky leg" first. When you sweep your opponent's leg, your opponent may raise his leg and escape out of it. If you can change your "hard foot sweep" to "soft sticky sweep", and use your instep to "stick" to his ankle, The higher that he raises his foot, the higher that you raise yours. If you hop in with a little downward pulling on his shoulder, he will be down.

The "sticky leg" can also be used for defense. Your opponent sweeps you, you bend your leg at your knee joint to let your opponent's leg to pass below your leg, you then use "sticky leg" to sweep back at his sweeping leg.

The "sticky leg" can also be used in "shin bite". The easiest way (the least effort) to take your opponnet down. That's the "leg bridge". If your leg touch your opponent's leg, you can sense his leg intention. That will give you a lot of useful information (just like your "arm bridge").

There is no sticky leg in VT fighting....

[WC1277]

.... your trying to rationalize 'your' thinking to do a redundant drill. You dont understand chi-sao and its redundant factors to actual use in fighting.

I am just replying rather than ignoring so guys dont think 'your personal' redundant ideas are valid to fighting with Ving Tsun .

That's fine.

[WC1277]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1144006]

Do you stick to the dummy arms ? just curious .

When contact is made, yes. As with anytime contact is made.

[k gledhill]

When contact is made, yes. As with anytime contact is made.

10 characters....:o

[Vajramusti]

Kevin sez:
There is no sticky leg in VT fighting....

((But Kevin speaks for himself- not for all of VT!!!!)) Joy C
__________________



Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post

Do you stick to the dummy arms ? just curious .

((Hey-Vajramusti did not say that. Kevin asked the question. Quotations sure are being jumbled)) Joy C

----------------------------------------------
When contact is made, yes. As with anytime contact is made.

[Grumblegeezer]

@WC1277: Whatever. And now for something completely different...

Why do you have that really ugly drawing of Leung Jan done by Leung Ting as your avatar? Sorry, it just really bugs me! Now what were we talking about again?

[k gledhill]

Kevin sez:
There is no sticky leg in VT fighting....

((But Kevin speaks for himself- not for all of VT!!!!)) Joy C
__________________



Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post

Do you stick to the dummy arms ? just curious .

((Hey-Vajramusti did not say that. Kevin asked the question. Quotations sure are being jumbled)) Joy C

----------------------------------------------
When contact is made, yes. As with anytime contact is made.

Yes I speak for YM>WSL>PB Fighting methods ...Joy & WC1277 speak for themselves.

The rest :rolleyes: whatever...:D you play your sticky leg games, enjoy.

[WC1277]

@WC1277: Whatever. And now for something completely different...

Why do you have that really ugly drawing of Leung Jan done by Leung Ting as your avatar? Sorry, it just really bugs me! Now what were we talking about again?

Why is it that if anyone contributes to this forum, there's only a dialogue if it's under the context of who's Sifu is better? I simply explain a concept and people view it as I'm jamming it down their throats. There's usually only a response if one can find a hole in the logic or truthfulness of the statement. A giant ****ing match. I challenge someone to find a hole in what I've explained if that's how they feel, but a simple "whatever" reflects upon your character and understanding much more than myself contributing.

I happen to like the picture and have no concern over who or where it came from. Comments like that show how deeply politics are ingrained in your psyche. Good luck!

[WC1277]

Yes I speak for YM>WSL>PB Fighting methods ...Joy & WC1277 speak for themselves.

The rest :rolleyes: whatever...:D you play your sticky leg games, enjoy.

We all speak for OURSELVES Kevin on this forum. Should I inquire from PB if you speak for him?

[k gledhill]

We all speak for OURSELVES Kevin on this forum. Should I inquire from PB if you speak for him?

Who do you think I get my information from ? You think I invent it to pi8s you off :D
Sorry to ruin many guys drilling fantasy but there is NO CHI-GERK ....:)

[Grumblegeezer]

I happen to like the picture and have no concern over who or where it came from. Comments like that show how deeply politics are ingrained in your psyche. Good luck!

Politics? What's politics got to do with it? I'm an art teacher by profession. I just happen to hate that drawing (and just about every other illustration by Leung Ting). I was his disciple for about 12 years and I had to refrain from commenting while I watched him draw some of them!:p

On the other hand I still admire his Wing Tsun. Oh, and his calligraphy is said to be good. I stopped training with him for other reasons.

[Grumblegeezer]

Who do you think I get my information from ? You think I invent it to pi8s you off :D
Sorry to ruin many guys drilling fantasy but there is NO CHI-GERK ....:)

OK Kevin, but I've heard it put a bit differently. That is to say that Grandmaster Yip never passed on a specific training method of Chi-Gherk. However many of his students have put together Chi Gherk drills to train leg skills.

So maybe you're right in the sense that there isn't one specific, traditional exercise called chi-gherk. But there are certainly a lot of versions practiced today, ...some versions are BS, and there are some that look pretty useful... depending on how open you are to WC as an evolving art.

[k gledhill]

OK Kevin, but I've heard it put a bit differently. That is to say that Grandmaster Yip never passed on a specific training method of Chi-Gherk. However many of his students have put together Chi Gherk drills to train leg skills.

So maybe you're right in the sense that there isn't one specific, traditional exercise called chi-gherk. But there are certainly a lot of versions practiced today, ...some versions are BS, and there are some that look pretty useful... depending on how open you are to WC as an evolving art.

Many versions, all based on a redundant idea....if I type anymore I will rant....:D

[Yoshiyahu]

So are you saying the Drill Chi Gerk is not apart of Real Wing Chun?

Are you saying Chi Gerk is useless to real fighting?

If your advance enough to use it while your grappling stand up and striking it could change the fight to your advantage. Imagine Jut sau and punch while knee stamping. Also kicking while gain entry and bridging can put your opponent in jeporady.

I agree some of the basic chi gerk exercises is useless. But it does train reflexes. It could be useful if drilled over and over again. It can ingrain some habits into your pysche that manifest when certain techniques are done up close.



Many versions, all based on a redundant idea....if I type anymore I will rant....:D

[k gledhill]

So are you saying the Drill Chi Gerk is not apart of Real Wing Chun?

Are you saying Chi Gerk is useless to real fighting?

If your advance enough to use it while your grappling stand up and striking it could change the fight to your advantage. Imagine Jut sau and punch while knee stamping. Also kicking while gain entry and bridging can put your opponent in jeporady.

I agree some of the basic chi gerk exercises is useless. But it does train reflexes. It could be useful if drilled over and over again. It can ingrain some habits into your pysche that manifest when certain techniques are done up close.

Your confused .....many are.

[EternalSpring]

Chi Gerk exists imho, although it may not mean the same thing to everyone. To be vague, it's simply just using sensitivity in your leg techniques. This also may not mean the same thing to everyone. Either way, "chi-"something (sao/gerk/etc)" is not unique to Ving Tsun. There is chi gwon (staff), chi gim/jian, etc.

Personally I think the problem with a lot of people's idea of chi sao/gerk/whatever is that they see it as "seeking to stick." That's really just a tiny part of it. "sticking" isn't really the final goal imo. Landing the hit is the goal. If "sticking" only needs to last for a fraction of a second, then thats how long it will last, and as long as contact is made, "sticking" may have taken place. sticking when it's unnecessary would be "bad" chi sao/gerk/etc. just my 2c

[k gledhill]

Chi Gerk exists imho, although it may not mean the same thing to everyone. To be vague, it's simply just using sensitivity in your leg techniques. This also may not mean the same thing to everyone. Either way, "chi-"something (sao/gerk/etc)" is not unique to Ving Tsun. There is chi gwon (staff), chi gim/jian, etc.

Personally I think the problem with a lot of people's idea of chi sao/gerk/whatever is that they see it as "seeking to stick." That's really just a tiny part of it. "sticking" isn't really the final goal imo. Landing the hit is the goal. If "sticking" only needs to last for a fraction of a second, then thats how long it will last, and as long as contact is made, "sticking" may have taken place. sticking when it's unnecessary would be "bad" chi sao/gerk/etc. just my 2c

aaarghhh ~ !

[EternalSpring]

aaarghhh ~ !

I dont get what's wrong with my statement, or rather, what you disagree with. Personally I think you're just viewing chi gerk as a chi sao drill with the legs being used in fighting.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your confused .....many are.

Explain how am i confused?

[k gledhill]

Explain how am i confused?

There are a lot of redundant ideas based off the equally incorrect idea that Chi-sao is to stick to your opponent to feel intentions and control by sticking, redirect by turning due to sticking and feeling....phew ! NO !

So the idea that there is Sticky leg aka Chi-Gerk is ...wrong.

do you see what I have shown you ?

[Yoshiyahu]

There are a lot of redundant ideas based off the equally incorrect idea that Chi-sao is to stick to your opponent to feel intentions and control by sticking, redirect by turning due to sticking and feeling....phew ! NO !

So the idea that there is Sticky leg aka Chi-Gerk is ...wrong.

do you see what I have shown you ?

Yes I see what you have shown me...In short just because chi means stick and sau means hand...You are not actually to stick to the opponent?

So in other words you use your WC as a long range fighting style? and not close combat?

forgive me for me ignorant but im trying to understand. Because when I see phillip bayer do chi sau with the young man and do demostrations he is sticking to him? I see his drills emphasizing the stick...

Maybe I have a different definition of stick to your opponent than you do?

As for sticky leg? Do you really think its possible to stick to someones leg or arm the entire time?

[k gledhill]

Yes I see what you have shown me...In short just because chi means stick and sau means hand...You are not actually to stick to the opponent?

So in other words you use your WC as a long range fighting style? and not close combat?

forgive me for me ignorant but im trying to understand. Because when I see phillip bayer do chi sau with the young man and do demostrations he is sticking to him? I see his drills emphasizing the stick...

Maybe I have a different definition of stick to your opponent than you do?

As for sticky leg? Do you really think its possible to stick to someones leg or arm the entire time?

He isnt sticking he is trying to HIT the guy using arm positions that equalize the partners HIT back ...each partner is exchanging force and also developing their structures to support the forces to damage with punches.
The drill looks to outsiders like two guys rolling arms like driving a car ..wrong. Or trying to use arms to feel and negate each others attempts to land cheap shots :D
NO !
The drills start by developing elbows to become part of a striking duality tan & Jum ...a chain of events in our fighting methods, then they progress to lat sao chit chung drills, deliberately allowing each other to be hit and hit back to prove force or not....adding striking force exchanges WITH the previously introduced elbow ideas...
Then we add exchanges to interceptions, punches , pak, jut, bong, laap sao drills for further developing force development punch conditioning...we also have stepping and angling for tactical intuitive responses involving motion to force entry at us , randomly later...so it becomes our SOUL or developing mindless intuitive reactions with ..


do you follow ?

[Yoshiyahu]

Yet and still you follow or shadow your opponent. When he moves back you move forward. when you push him back with your structure you advance. You do not allow him a gap. You stick to close quarters space so you can continuely use your strucutre and angling to attack while he is unable to attack right?


i like what you said here!

we also have stepping and angling for tactical intuitive responses involving motion to force entry at us , randomly later...so it becomes our SOUL or developing mindless intuitive reactions with ..

[k gledhill]

A clip of striking with a kick in there too , short....CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwyTouuZd0s&feature=player_embedded)

[Yoshiyahu]

A clip of striking with a kick in there too , short....CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwyTouuZd0s&feature=player_embedded)

i like how phillip bayer does a kick while maintaining a bridge. It is nice to see him kick with a bridge and not like a knock em sock em robot. thanks for posting that short vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwyTouuZd0s&feature=player_embedded