Double Weighted Front Stance

[Foiling Fist]

Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

“If your weight is back-weighted, basic bio-mechanics will show that you will be prevented from delivering all of your force into the target. “

The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army, by Dennis Rovere, page 18.

Having your stance back-weighted also leads to another problem, namely, a tendency to straighten the front leg. Any low kick, such as a Xingyi horse kick targeting the straightened knee, would easily cause it to hyperflex, severely damaging it.”

There are two universal defense against kicks to the knee:
1) angling the knee forward, so the kick gets hit by the front striking area of the knee,
rather than the more flexible joint;
2) when in a Cat Stance, T-Stance or San-Ti; the lesser weight of the front foot is shifted backward toward rear leg, and
a) the front leg evades the kick by repositioning or
b) the front leg’s knee is repositioned to hit attacker with knee or shin strike.

An external kick is limited by biomechanics, an internally generated kick is not.

When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends all of their time on forms/Katas only; does not. When you advance, your training prevents this.

A major foundation of Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts is the stance concept of having either leg being empty or full. This is not weight, although sometimes they are the same. This is fullness of Qi, stance rooting and a centering of the driving energy.
This is the generator of the wave flow force, using the whole body weight being directed into the strike. Kinematics deals with this somewhat, not biomechanics.

“Sung Shi-Jung
…Therefore, in Hsing-I never equally share the weight on your two feet.”
Hsing-I, Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, by Robert W. Smith, page 98.

[Dragonzbane76]

situation dictates what to use. not fully understanding what you mean by double weighted stance? sounds like a basic front stance with most of the weight leaning back? If this is what you are stating then I would counter by stating that clinch work in grappling situations might intail this, could be a transition or the absorbtion of force when someone pushes you.


Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

[Foiling Fist]

Focusing on having your load weight balance ratio of front foot versus back foot at 50/50, or fifty percent for each leg.

Others focus on one of these ratios:
70% back, 30% front,
66.6% back, 33.3% front, or
60% back, 40% front.

You are correct in implying that in any changing (martial) situation that one might end up with any ratio as optimum, and when one shifts their wieght, at midpoint, it will be at 50%.

The term is relative to what is used most of the time, or in statistics; the trend. This is usually the default, or perched position.

Regarding "clinch work in grappling situations might intail this, could be a transition or the absorbtion of force when someone pushes you.":

I would say this was covered under pushing and pulling with limitation:
sometimes jerking can aid in a push or pull.

Jerking is a push-pounding function of a jack hammer and can be aided by changing angle of attack, so an uneven stance is called for.

Pulling can be aided by jerking. Dogs and wolves are masters of this in a tug of war, or teeth ripping flesh. They shift their weight and angle.

[YouKnowWho]

load weight balance ratio of front foot versus back foot at 50/50, or fifty percent for each leg.
We should not look at TCMA just from a "striker" point of view. Without 50/50 weight distributation, there won't be hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, fireman's carry, ...

[Bob Ashmore]

50/50 weight distribution may be a bad thing in Xingyi Quan, I honestly don't know as I have never studied it and would not presume to comment.
But "Double Empty, Double Full" works out well in the two styles of Taijiquan I pretend to know.
The form "Cross Hands" is in both styles forms, repeatedly, and in both styles the weight distribution in the legs is 50/50.
Strangely, in both forms this form has been explained to me as sometimes being used to defend against kicks although not to the knee, to the groin.

[Robinhood]

50/50 weight will break the path of the your structure connection to the ground. Thus your path of your center will drop between your legs and air space will occupy the last leg of the path to the ground. Thus not allowing transfer of energy from the ground.

Weight on the front leg will result in a weak connection to the ground for transferring energy forward, or back through your structure. Putting your weight on your front leg only allows leaning your weight forward or setting up for a future movement.

[Scott R. Brown]

Where/how the body weight is distributed is entirely context dependent. When stepping backwards or forwards you are double, triple, quadruple weighted.

If you pull your opponent towards you, you will move you weight backwards, if you push your opponent away from you, your weight is moved forward.

Centered weight is mostly for standing still!

[Dragonzbane76]

situation dictates what to use.

Like i said....

anyways i don't really understand what foil guy is trying to state? Are you stating it's bad/good? are you implying that you don't use it or shouldn't be used?

[Scott R. Brown]

Like i said....

anyways i don't really understand what foil guy is trying to state? Are you stating it's bad/good? are you implying that you don't use it or shouldn't be used?

He is trying to generate a discussion so he can show off what he thinks is his exceptional knowledge.

He has an established pattern!:rolleyes:

[bawang]

50/50 weight distribution may be a bad thing in Xingyi Quan, I honestly don't know as I have never studied it and would not presume to comment.
But "Double Empty, Double Full" works out well in the two styles of Taijiquan I pretend to know.
The form "Cross Hands" is in both styles forms, repeatedly, and in both styles the weight distribution in the legs is 50/50.
Strangely, in both forms this form has been explained to me as sometimes being used to defend against kicks although not to the knee, to the groin.

cross hands protects the face from punches.

[Bob Ashmore]

Bawang,
At the bottom of the movement (where the hands cross) it protects against kicks to the groin, if you go even lower it can ever protect the knee, then the lifting motion can lift the opponents foot, tossing him to the ground if done correctly.
At the top, it can protect the face, neck, shoulders.
In the middle, it can protect the chest or stomach.
There is a whole range of crossing to be used the way I learned it, not just one.
And a plethora of other martial applications as well, that have nothing to do with protecting against kicks.

Robin Hood,
Is that part of the "internal" none of us could possibly understand?
I hope you'll forgive me for it, but I'm not going to believe you know more about what a 50/50 weight distribution does or does not do then the Masters of Yang and Wu style Taijiquan with whom I have trained.
All of them have taught me 50/50 weight distributions. I've heard them called "double empty/double full" to show that Yin and Yang are separated top to bottom instead of side to side (double empty arms in ward off, double full legs).
If you have a cogent, understandable way to explain your assertions about this, please do.
If all you're going to say is that I don't understand "internal", then please spare us all the effort of reading your post.
In fact, I'll save you the trouble...
I do NOT understand "internal".
Done.
Now, if you are capable of explaining, in rational terms that don't just reassert what I've already admitted to, about what you're claiming, let's hear it.

Bob

[Dragonzbane76]

bob,

It's probably to mystic for you to understand. :rolleyes:

If he told you, your head would explode or something along that line.

[Matthew]

50/50 weight will break the path of the your structure connection to the ground. Thus your path of your center will drop between your legs and air space will occupy the last leg of the path to the ground. Thus not allowing transfer of energy from the ground.

Hey All,

This sounds sort of a loaded question, doesn't it?

Are you asking about a 50/50 weighted front stance, Or a double weighted front stance?

As Chen XiaoWang explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrdPNw4Nyo), Double weighted is not so simple as 50% weight on each leg. It is then, as he explains, when a leg (and stance/structure in extrapolation) cannot move and both are 'stuck' and it is not when there is 50% of weight on each leg. If we see a 50/50 stance, we see not only is it a transition through stances, we also see it is as common as a typical Ma Bu horse stance and as obvious a movement as Taiji opening hands.

As the video lays it out, double weighted is the point at which one cannot continue to change and adapt in their structure, change one of the leg positions, or move the joints.


Literally double weight is having the same weight on both feet, this is right. But the original meaning of ancient people was not this. They meant getting stuck, namely both feet cannot be moved, When the rule of movement and change is affected

(Added Bit Here): So in this, we can see that double weighting is an issue in any stance, but so long as a front stance is double weighted, regardless of if it is 50/50, it should not matter if it is regarded as a front, rear, side, nail, upper, or any other stance by name. If it is not double weighted, than transformation/adaptation is able.

[Taixuquan99]

I'm in agreement regarding the difference between double weighted and 50-50 weight.

I also think that, when talking about shuai jiao and chin na, weightedness is intrinsically also involving the opponent's stance, so one could be forcing the opponent to bear more or less weight, or none. So weightedness only means your own stance at the longer range of striking, sometimes until hitting, and becomes less about your own two feet the more it's about you and your opponent at ranges where seizing and throwing can occur.(Not that your two feet are not relevant then, but your opponent's stance shares relevance).

[YouKnowWho]

As Chen XiaoWang explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrdPNw4Nyo), Double weighted is not so simple as 50% weight on each leg. It is then, as he explains, when a leg (and stance/structure in extrapolation) cannot move and both are 'stuck' and it is not when there is 50% of weight on each leg.

That's the correct definition of "double weighted". The double weighted feeling can be created easily as the following:

Ask your opponent to:

- use his right leg to trap your "left" leg.
- push your "right" shoulder at the same time.

Now you can't move your left leg because it is trapped. You can't move your right leg either because your oppponent's pushing on your right shoulder will force you to shift more weight on your right leg.

It's always a good idea to attack your opponent's opposite leg and shoulder at the same time. this way, your opponent cannot yield, follow, or borrow your force.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Matthew;1142313]Hey All,

This sounds sort of a loaded question, doesn't it?

Are you asking about a 50/50 weighted front stance, Or a double weighted front stance?

As Chen XiaoWang explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrdPNw4Nyo), Double weighted is not so simple as 50% weight on each leg. It is then, as he explains, when a leg (and stance/structure in extrapolation) cannot move and both are 'stuck' and it is not when there is 50% of weight on each leg. If we see a 50/50 stance, we see not only is it a transition through stances, we also see it is as common as a typical Ma Bu horse stance and as obvious a movement as Taiji opening hands.

As the video lays it out, double weighted is the point at which one cannot continue to change and adapt in their structure, change one of the leg positions, or move the joints.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CXW-right on target.

[mawali]

Excellent point, Vajramusti!

The term may have some substance but since we all know what it means, observing what appears to be 2 feet equally placed MAY not be as it is. It looks that way but isn't! Only actual testing or combat will determine if the feet are 50/50!

[Foiling Fist]

"double weighted is the point at which one cannot continue to change and adapt in their structure, change one of the leg positions, or move the joints. "

You are 'right on target'.

Well put.

Thanks. Good to see that there are still top people here that are not afraid to wade through the posting gauntlet of jackals.

Stance weight balance is about loading, so I guess it is a loaded question, or a 'monkey mind' trap.

Many here are into one-upmanship; looks like I snagged a lot.

A monkey trap is a bottle filled with candies and a narrow opening;
the monkey reaches in to get all the candy his hand will hold, but cannot pull it through the narrower opening in the top; of the jar.

Rather than leave any candy, the greedy monkey keeps trying to get his hand out while holding onto all of the candy, and is trapped.

Hsing-i is mind boxing.
****

[QUOTE=Matthew;1142313]Hey All,

This sounds sort of a loaded question, doesn't it?

Are you asking about a 50/50 weighted front stance, Or a double weighted front stance?

As Chen XiaoWang explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxrdPNw4Nyo), Double weighted is not so simple as 50% weight on each leg. It is then, as he explains, when a leg (and stance/structure in extrapolation) cannot move and both are 'stuck' and it is not when there is 50% of weight on each leg. If we see a 50/50 stance, we see not only is it a transition through stances, we also see it is as common as a typical Ma Bu horse stance and as obvious a movement as Taiji opening hands.

As the video lays it out, double weighted is the point at which one cannot continue to change and adapt in their structure, change one of the leg positions, or move the joints.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CXW-right on target.