To Choke, Strangle or Twist?

[RenDaHai]

Ok,

So you have an easy opening to apply some kind of head grasping technique, what in your experience causes the most and fastest discomfort and most difficulty for him to counter? Using any type of hold do you;

Focus on crushing the wind pipe?

Focus on strangling the arteries?

Focus on twisting the neck using some kind of pivot like the chin or a fishhook or facelock e.t.c?

Some kind of combination of any of the above?

Something else entirely?


I always find I am made most uncomfortable with neck twisting, but I rarely use it myself as I am rather squeamish about applying it in sparring.

[Frost]

If I can grab the head for me the most discomfort is causes by ramming it into a brick wall, or clinching it and kneeing it off lol


I always find I am made most uncomfortable with neck twisting, but I rarely use it myself as I am rather squeamish about applying it in sparring.

Neck twisting is hard to pull off in a live environment, as are certain facelock (gromit etc) they look good in demos but are easy to slip out of when sweaty or just simple resist or counter, now the crossface does work and is a form of twisting, but its normally a last resort when they are close in and on your hips/legs and not a go to move

As for grabbing the chin well grab my chin with one hand and the back of the head with the other, and what do you think im going to do? Personally ill suplex your a$$ for being that close and giving me access to your body

Choke wise crushing the winfpipe (as in the gulitione I am weary of, it’s a pain move and can cause damage if applied too hard, I prefer chokes that attack the blood supply to the brain, hard to resist and work on everyone (well apart from Rickson

[Dragonzbane76]

For pain the Vegas nerve choke. Harder to get and harder to maintain but if set right hurts like your neck is being snapped.

Old reliable the RNC is still one of the most effective in terms of percentage.

Of the three differing types of chokes, air, blood, pain, a combination is always your best bet.

[ginosifu]

These all depend on the situation. All techniques that "kill" are different from techniques that "subdue" or submit and these are different than techniques that "control".

Crushing the Wind Pipe = Kill

Strangling the Artery = Subdue

Twist the Neck = Control

I would really have to in a dire situation to kill someone. Subdue and Control just will depend on each situation.

ginosifu

[RenDaHai]

Cool posts, cheers guys!



As for grabbing the chin well grab my chin with one hand and the back of the head with the other, and what do you think im going to do? Personally ill suplex your a$$ for being that close and giving me access to your body

I think I see what you mean, but with the chin I was thinking kind of from a standard front headlock, my torso against the back of your head, me somewhat sprawled. Then keeping pressure against your head with my body, twisting your chin to one side and up, if you see what I mean?

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm not real reliant on the front head lock. Someone with there arms down by your legs gives them to much advantage in my opinion. Easy for them to counter.

[SPJ]

Ok,

So you have an easy opening to apply some kind of head grasping technique, what in your experience causes the most and fastest discomfort and most difficulty for him to counter? Using any type of hold do you;

Focus on crushing the wind pipe?

Focus on strangling the arteries?

Focus on twisting the neck using some kind of pivot like the chin or a fishhook or facelock e.t.c?

Some kind of combination of any of the above?

Something else entirely?


I always find I am made most uncomfortable with neck twisting, but I rarely use it myself as I am rather squeamish about applying it in sparring.

1. I like to place my hand or arm on the back of the opponent's neck to throw him.

It is easy to push his neck joint down from the back.

2. I also like to do a spine lock or arm around his waist and push his neck joint up and back as if removing his eyebrows or wa mei. It can be a throw or restrain.

safer for you and the opponent.

and not easy for the opponent to counter. that is.

:)

[Drake]

Problem with crushing the windpipe is that you now have someone who has a solid 1-1.5 minutes of "I am in mortal danger, possibly/probably mortally injured, and must do anything and everything I can do to survive". Have fun with THAT Tazmanian devil...

[RenDaHai]

Problem with crushing the windpipe is that you now have someone who has a solid 1-1.5 minutes of "I am in mortal danger, possibly/probably mortally injured, and must do anything and everything I can do to survive". Have fun with THAT Tazmanian devil...

Good point...

[RenDaHai]

Say guys, does anyone know how difficult it is to actually break someones neck?

Just out of curiosity.... Jack bower makes it look easy.

[Drake]

Say guys, does anyone know how difficult it is to actually break someones neck?

Just out of curiosity.... Jack bower makes it look easy.

Pretty freaking difficult...

Unless you are Andre the Giant, then perhaps...

[TenTigers]

my chiropractor cranks me pretty hard.
I'm still here.




..unless I'm a zombie.....

[Frost]

Cool posts, cheers guys!



I think I see what you mean, but with the chin I was thinking kind of from a standard front headlock, my torso against the back of your head, me somewhat sprawled. Then keeping pressure against your head with my body, twisting your chin to one side and up, if you see what I mean?

For me the front head lock works best when they are turtled (quarter position for you wrestlers) then I can keep my legs away, and they twisting the head can work, normally used to take the back or turn them over rather than submit

Standing I like the guillotine, and the arm in choke first is quick and second keeps them off my legs

As for breaking the neck, ive been thrown so hard on my head ive had what they term a stinger more than onc and it was not nice, but nothing broke, onle ever seen one persons neck broke and that was a lift and dump of a head outside single with there full bodyweight landing on the neck, see the thread about braulio estima I started for a video of this

[TenTigers]

I am with Frost- from the rear, rnc, (seatbelt to bring'em down, then snake in the rnc.)from the front, guillotine. When I do a guillotine, I try to use a figure-4 lock, and then if I need to, rotate my wrist into the trachea. They always tap.

[ginosifu]

Say guys, does anyone know how difficult it is to actually break someones neck?

Just out of curiosity.... Jack bower makes it look easy.

To snap and break the neck you will need an acute angle and Fa Jing (explosive power). Look at my clip to see how to turn the neck and sit him on the ground and then turn their head sideways and snap downward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

ginosifu

[Drake]

To snap and break the neck you will need an acute angle and Fa Jing (explosive power). Look at my clip to see how to turn the neck and sit him on the ground and then turn their head sideways and snap downward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

ginosifu

Ok, come on. REELY?

Has this ever been proven to work? EVER?

[TenTigers]

all well and good, but it does bring up the old argument;
If you've never actually done it, or seen someone do it, then how do you know it works?
(meaning, breaking a person's neck and paralysing or killing them)
So, what we are left with is going on blind faith.
That being said, I teach these as well, and they work great for takedowns, but I tell my students that as far as the deadly neck snap-well, let me know how you do.
Ok, didn't mean to derail. Let's not go off on several pages about this, and save it for its own thread if need be.

[TenTigers]

dang, I'm slow. Drake beat me to it.

[Frost]

Ok, come on. REELY?

Has this ever been proven to work? EVER?

you mean they dont teach you how to break necks in the military drake?:eek:

[ginosifu]

Ok, come on. REELY?

Has this ever been proven to work? EVER?

As TT stated, I have never snapped anyone's neck so we have to go on faith. However, take a partner and sit them down, turn their neck sideways and start to apply pressure (Slowly). See how fast they tap and ask them how much severe pain they were in and how it felt like their neck was going to snap... Then Imagine adding an explosive snap downward on the neck.

Again.... I never actually killed anyone so I am going on what my Sifu has told me.

ginosifu

[Drake]

As TT stated, I have never snapped anyone's neck so we have to go on faith. However, take a partner and sit them down, turn their neck sideways and start to apply pressure (Slowly). See how fast they tap and ask them how much severe pain they were in and how it felt like their neck was going to snap... Then Imagine adding an explosive snap downward on the neck.

Again.... I never actually killed anyone so I am going on what my Sifu has told me.

ginosifu

You can wrench someone's neck, and it is terribly painful. It won't end a fight, though, and could possibly make the situation worse.

People tap out of pain all the time. They aren't injured, but it hurts badly and they quit. My trainer at one of my military schools broke me of that habit by putting me in terribly painful situations, but not letting me tap out. He taught me just to bear through it.

Best thing to do is cut off blood flow to the brain on both sides of the neck. It's indefensible, because you involuntarily pass out. Cutting off oxygen takes too long, and it is extremely unlikely you'll be able to break the neck, and wind up just causing a lot of pain, which, on its own, won't win a fight.

[YouKnowWho]

There are many requires that you have to meet in order to have a successful stand up head lock.

[Drake]

I still don't see the practicality of causing pain. Is it a "who can **** off the other the most?" fight?

I don't know about the rest of you, but if you are just causing me "owies", you are really just making me angrier...

[Golden Arms]

I agree that pain compliance is not necessarily the best route to go down if you are talking about a real confrontation.

As far as breaking a neck, you have the best chance you would ever have at doing it if you blood choke them out first and they fall unconscious. If you want to know about how much force it takes, just go ask a Chiropractor or any Osteopath.

[YouKnowWho]

causing pain. ...

If you can hit on the back of your opponent's head before getting a head lock on him, you can almost knock him out 1/2 way even before your head lock.

To be able to hit on the back of your opponent's head has great combat value.

[Drake]

If you can hit on the back of your opponent's head before getting a head lock on him, you can almost knock him out 1/2 way even before your head lock.

To be able to hit on the back of your opponent's head has great combat value.

Or you can cut off the blood to the brain, put him to bed, and be done with it.

[donjitsu2]

Ok,

So you have an easy opening to apply some kind of head grasping technique, what in your experience causes the most and fastest discomfort and most difficulty for him to counter? Using any type of hold do you;

Focus on crushing the wind pipe?

Focus on strangling the arteries?

Focus on twisting the neck using some kind of pivot like the chin or a fishhook or facelock e.t.c?

Some kind of combination of any of the above?

Something else entirely?


I always find I am made most uncomfortable with neck twisting, but I rarely use it myself as I am rather squeamish about applying it in sparring.

I think it's wise to go easy when sparring - though you should still train the skill.

However, when you really need to I say "crush the windpipe". I mean if you're involved in a situation where it has come to physical violence, then I feel like it is safe to assume you're in a pretty dangerous situation. Which means you shouldn't be messing around worrying if you're gonna hurt the guy too much.

If you're worried about hurting the guy too much either your fighting for the wrong reasons or you need to get your priorities straight.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Lucas]

ive had my windpipe 'closed off' in a home invasion attack, and i fought out of it. i woke up to being choked with a front grip, had the guy cut off my blood, i would have likely gone out. i was lying down so he was on top of me holding my windpipe between his grip and using his other arm to try and control me, had he put his knees on my shoulders and double gripped my neck cutting off my blood id probably be dead right now.

[Frost]

You can wrench someone's neck, and it is terribly painful. It won't end a fight, though, and could possibly make the situation worse.

People tap out of pain all the time. They aren't injured, but it hurts badly and they quit. My trainer at one of my military schools broke me of that habit by putting me in terribly painful situations, but not letting me tap out. He taught me just to bear through it.

Best thing to do is cut off blood flow to the brain on both sides of the neck. It's indefensible, because you involuntarily pass out. Cutting off oxygen takes too long, and it is extremely unlikely you'll be able to break the neck, and wind up just causing a lot of pain, which, on its own, won't win a fight.

this :)

you dont have to be in the military to understand this, anyone who has competed in grappling knows in training you tap to pian, in comps you ignore it and tap to possible snaps or take a nap, pain you just take and use to your advantage

[Frost]

Or you can cut off the blood to the brain, put him to bed, and be done with it.

stop making sense

[goju]

I like using the choke with one forearm pressing against the adams apple and the other fore arm against the back of the neck. Worked well for the cops when they wanted to abuse a criminal :D

[YouKnowWho]

I still don't see the practicality of causing pain....

It could be just a distraction. The moment that you pay attention on the pain from your skull squeezing, the moment that you may forget about your legs. :D

[YouKnowWho]

what in your experience causes the most and fastest discomfort and most difficulty for him to counter?
You can almost write a book just about the "head lock" by itself. In order to make your standing up "head lock" work, you will need to fulfill the following requirement:

- Strong head lock.
- Full control of your opponent's leading arm.
- Crash your opponent's body structure/alignment.
- Destroy your opponent's rooting.
- Take advantage on your opponent's resistence.
- Take advantage on your opponent's waist surrounding arm.
- Ability to play with your opponent's leg.

You will need to be good in at least 15 other moves in order to support your "head lock". If you consider the "head lock" as the root of a tree, you will see a big tree that can grow out of that single root.


Focus on crushing the wind pipe?
This may have to do with you and your opponent's height. If you are 5 ft and your opponent is 6ft 6 inch, this move will not be for you. You can squeeze on his:

- temple,
- jaw, or
- neck.

[RenDaHai]

Some good stuff here guys, thanks to all;

To summerise;

It seems the consensus is that cutting off the blood is faster and generally the more successful method. If you can cause a bit of head trauma first especially with blunt force to the back of the head it will speed things along.

The windpipe although painful and damaging is too slow a method to be relied on.

Twisting to cause pain seems like a good idea, but I see now that in a serious situation there is not a good end point to it as breaking the neck is difficult and people respond to pain very differently in an extreme situation. It is still useful for control.

[YouKnowWho]

Twisting to cause pain seems like a good idea ...

It's not the pain. It's the collapse of the body structure/alignment. The head manipulation is very effective skill. You use the strong part of your body to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body. There is one move that you can use to take down any big and strong guy. That move is the "摘盔(Zhai Kui) - remove helmet". When your opponent's head goes, his body will follow.

[Dragonzbane76]

Like i said for the best results a combination or mixture is probably your best bet. A blood air choke works really well. Like a deep guillotine or rnc has a mix on them. A darst choke is kinda a mix. Anaconda, triangle,etc. All use little mixture.

[RenDaHai]

When your opponent's head goes, his body will follow.

True that, if it doesn't he's got big problems.:)

Definately, Controling the head is essential. I was just thinking about the final submission.

The reason I am interested in Twisting the head is because using any type of lock you are effectively 'locked' yourself in that position. Twisting can be very fast and sudden which then leaves you free. But as people are saying the twist itself is not enough to 'finish' someone so it would have to be followed by something more final.

[Frost]

True that, if it doesn't he's got big problems.:)

Definately, Controling the head is essential. I was just thinking about the final submission.

The reason I am interested in Twisting the head is because using any type of lock you are effectively 'locked' yourself in that position. Twisting can be very fast and sudden which then leaves you free. But as people are saying the twist itself is not enough to 'finish' someone so it would have to be followed by something more final.

if you want to finish them you have two choices
1) massive head trauma
2) cut of the blood supply to the brain

look at the demos of head twisting or controlling, they normally require two hands on the head and to either be directly infront , or behind your opponent ...realistically who is going to stand there and let you grab the head like that?.....how many times have you actually see it work?

[RenDaHai]

if you want to finish them you have two choices
1) massive head trauma
2) cut of the blood supply to the brain

look at the demos of head twisting or controlling, they normally require two hands on the head and to either be directly infront , or behind your opponent ...realistically who is going to stand there and let you grab the head like that?.....how many times have you actually see it work?

I've grabbed peoples heads and more than once. If they have hair it is very easy to do and surprises most people. A classic combo (which appears a lot in forms) is a quick stab to the nuts with your fingers which generally causes them to pull their groin back and bend their head foreward slightly. Slightly os enough to capture the hair and pull down and then you get the chance to use two hands to move into a twist, a lock or the classic 'Guardian pounds a morter' to the back of the head.

But I think speed is preferable and hitting the back of the head and twisting are fast. I accept that choking the blood is more reliable however...... And potentially more 'friendly'.

[Taixuquan99]

In friendly training, I would never twist a guys neck to injure him. And no, I've never seen someone's neck broken, nor have I seen a cannibal, whatever that proves.

That said, if I were in a confrontation, got one guy by the neck, but had someone closing in, and it was life and death, I would thrash that dude's neck like a frikkin chicken, and I think anyone with any common sense would not want to have that happen to them, regardless of the value of cutting off blood supply, or chokes, or pain compliance.

[YouKnowWho]

how many times have you actually see it work?
If you can create a chance for your "front cut (Judo Osoto Gari)", you can move your left hand behind your opponent's neck, and your right hand on top of his forehead.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

[Drake]

It's not possible to generate the tremendous force necessary to break the neck. Come on, guys... this is a debunked myth.

[Taixuquan99]

It's not possible to generate the tremendous force necessary to break the neck. Come on, guys... this is a debunked myth.

Where is it debunked that you can't hurt the neck in hth?


Frankly, if you can get someone's lower body to get momentum while in a standing guillotine, and you jerk the other way, I'm pretty sure much suckage would ensue, but if you have a source for the debunking, no sweat off of my back.

For the record, I have seen someone break their neck. If your lower body is going one way, and your head the other, it's probably gonna break.

[Golden Arms]

It's not possible to generate the tremendous force necessary to break the neck. Come on, guys... this is a debunked myth.

Oh really?

You should let this guy know:
(his attacker was between 40 and 60 years old, 5 feet 9 inches tall and 175 pounds)

http://www.dreamindemon.com/2010/02/16/mans-neck-broke-after-fight-over-a-stolen-tomato/

You should also probably tell that to several the inmate that broke a guys neck after having his face hit full force with a 50+lb free weight on my buddy's watch as well.

[BakShaolinEC]

I'm like Swayze in roadhouse. I only know how to rip out throats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTYKoNoNXkA

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuNylxOHbvI

[Drake]

What the (expletive) ever. Now you are changing the environment OR wording, for what reason, I don't know, to show that necks can broken. NO SH$T. But you CANNOT SNAP SOMEONE'S NECK WITH TWO HANDS.

Yes, you can HURT the neck. I CLEARLY SAID THAT.

And YES, hitting someone upside the HEAD WITH A GODDAMM FREE WEIGHT CAN PROBABLY BREAK A NECK TOO.

Grow up, and stop living in denial. Changing the subject, or twisting my words is f*cking immature and f*cking irritating.

[Golden Arms]

Drake,

You are the one changing words. The inmate was hit in a surprise attack, got angry, grabbed the guy with his two hands, and broke his neck.

[Taixuquan99]

What the (expletive) ever. Now you are changing the environment OR wording, for what reason, I don't know, to show that necks can broken. NO SH$T. But you CANNOT SNAP SOMEONE'S NECK WITH TWO HANDS.

Yes, you can HURT the neck. I CLEARLY SAID THAT.

And YES, hitting someone upside the HEAD WITH A GODDAMM FREE WEIGHT CAN PROBABLY BREAK A NECK TOO.

Grow up, and stop living in denial. Changing the subject, or twisting my words is f*cking immature and f*cking irritating.

First, cool off, people are saying what they think. You changed context and wording as much as anyone, and certainly your response is ridiculously mature.

Second, where is the debunking?

Third, hurt and pain compliance are not necessarily synonymous. Hurt has the idea of injure in there, and the neck simply is not nearly as resilient as you suggest.

You claimed expertise, provide it.:p:D

[Golden Arms]

My father was a doctor in Vietnam and then did quite a bit of emergency room work, on at least two occasions he told me of people that had their necks broken while fighting.

I am honestly kind of surprised that someone is arguing that it cannot be done. I never said it is easy to do if someone is resisting you, but neither is an arm bar, punching someone in the face, leg locks of various types, and breaking someones back (something that is likely more difficult to do than a neck, but also possible).

Drake,

I have done my share of fighting, both full contact and the occasional real world scuffle, I am not by any means a form fairy.

[Drake]

Drake,

You are the one changing words. The inmate was hit in a surprise attack, got angry, grabbed the guy with his two hands, and broke his neck.

did you read your own article?

[Drake]

My father was a doctor in Vietnam and then did quite a bit of emergency room work, on at least two occasions he told me of people that had their necks broken while fighting.

I am honestly kind of surprised that someone is arguing that it cannot be done. I never said it is easy to do if someone is resisting you, but neither is an arm bar, punching someone in the face, leg locks of various types, and breaking someones back (something that is likely more difficult to do than a neck, but also possible).

Drake,

I have done my share of fighting, both full contact and the occasional real world scuffle, I am not by any means a form fairy.

Who called you a forms fairy? JESUS CHRIST GET YOUR CRAP STRAIGHT. I LIKE FORMS.

[Drake]

Awesome, we've got anecdotes, misread articles, movie clips, and stories from NAM.

Again, as someone pointed out, ask a chiropractor how much force it takes.

And get your facts straight.

[Taixuquan99]

did you read your own article?

The article wasn't about the inmate, the inmate was a second story in his post, and not referenced in the article.

[Golden Arms]

Awesome, we've got anecdotes, misread articles, movie clips, and stories from NAM.

Again, as someone pointed out, ask a chiropractor how much force it takes.

And get your facts straight.

And I am the one that pointed out the chiropractor. Seems like the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

Long story short, a neck can be broken, but the average joe should likely not count on doing it (especially if the person is conscious).

[Drake]

And it was RWilson, who apparently doesn't like me either, who used the term forms fairy.

Apparently, anyone who debunks mystic "super lethal" neck breaking snaps is a TCMA-hating MMAist.

[Taixuquan99]

Awesome, we've got anecdotes, misread articles, movie clips, and stories from NAM.

Again, as someone pointed out, ask a chiropractor how much force it takes.

And get your facts straight.

A chiropractor? Seriously?

If you're gonna be disrespectful because people don't get all your terms straight and don't cite their claims and misread your posts, then it might help if you didn't get their terms wrong, fail to cite your claims, and misread their posts.

Mighty high horse there over nothing.

[Drake]

And I am the one that pointed out the chiropractor. Seems like the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

Long story short, a neck can be broken, but the average joe should likely not count on doing it (especially if the person is conscious).

So then what's the argument? I said you can't snap someone's neck. I said you can wrench it, and it hurts.

I don't even understand what you are disagreeing with me about.

[Drake]

A chiropractor? Seriously?

If you're gonna be disrespectful because people don't get all your terms straight and don't cite their claims and misread your posts, then it might help if you didn't get their terms wrong, fail to cite your claims, and misread their posts.

Mighty high horse there over nothing.

Too late, Skippy... too late...

[Drake]

A chiropractor? Seriously?

If you're gonna be disrespectful because people don't get all your terms straight and don't cite their claims and misread your posts, then it might help if you didn't get their terms wrong, fail to cite your claims, and misread their posts.

Mighty high horse there over nothing.

Stop being so sensitive, Francis.

[Taixuquan99]

Apparently, anyone who debunks mystic "super lethal" neck breaking snaps is a TCMA-hating MMAist.

Nice ad hominem attacks.

Talk about changing the terms! No one you're arguing with has EVER said any of that crap, stating their thoughts while we're supposed to all know these thorough debunkings you're failing to cite.

[Drake]

Nice ad hominem attacks.

Talk about changing the terms! No one you're arguing with has EVER said any of that crap, stating their thoughts while we're supposed to all know these thorough debunkings you're failing to cite.

Ad hominem against who? And dude... GOOGLE IT.

On the bright side, the moderators will have a field day with this when they get here..

[Drake]

And if you want to drag ad hominem into this, you might want to check yourself with "burden of proof" logical fallacies. It isn't my job to DISPROVE it.

[Taixuquan99]

Ad hominem against who? And dude... GOOGLE IT.

On the bright side, the moderators will have a field day with this when they get here..

Why would the mods care? You get offensive over nothing, others respond, nothing new here.

[Drake]

Why would the mods care? You get offensive over nothing, others respond, nothing new here.

Now you are just being Suzy the Contrarian...

[Taixuquan99]

And if you want to drag ad hominem into this, you might want to check yourself with "burden of proof" logical fallacies. It isn't my job to DISPROVE it.

It's your job to cite a claim. You said it was debunked, you never cited it. I asked because I was genuinely curious, but you still cite nothing. I'm not trying to disprove anything, we were talking about wrenching necks, you got butthurt because apparently, well, it's not entirely clear why, end of story.

[Drake]

No, it's not. Someone claims that he/she can snap a neck with "explosive force" had better be willing to prove it.

I was "butthurt" because of arrogant snobs who refuse to face reality, and then change my words to "hurt the neck" or cite something that has nothing to do with original claim.

I've got no more to say about it, because at this point, you are just dragging stupidity out for the sake of internet points and the mongoloid joy of circular arguments, which is on par for this forum. Consider this done. Don't like it, go argue with an imaginary friend and pretend it's me. This football bat of a discussion is over.

[Taixuquan99]

No, it's not. Someone claims that he/she can snap a neck with "explosive force" had better be willing to prove it.

I believe this is called murder.


I was "butthurt" because of arrogant snobs who refuse to face reality, and then change my words to "hurt the neck" or cite something that has nothing to do with original claim.

Frankly, I was merely discussing whether or not I felt it was valid to wrench the neck, regardless of the results. From there, it's academic and unimportant, I certainly wasn't arrogant in my original statement on the thread. True, I was not sticking to strict terms of some previous parts of the discussion, but that's not really grounds for calling me arrogant or getting, as you say, butthurt.

I don't think I sounded snobbish either, but you apparently do. It was not my intention.


I've got no more to say about it, because at this point, you are just dragging stupidity out for the sake of internet points and the mongoloid joy of circular arguments, which is on par for this forum. Consider this done. Don't like it, go argue with an imaginary friend and pretend it's me. This football bat of a discussion is over.

I'm glad you're not as arrogant as me.

I return to my original statement, I think it would suck to have one's neck wrenched, and be injurious.

[Taixuquan99]

I've done a google search, as recommended. Most of the discussion was regarding the "movie version" of breaking the neck. None stated that there was no possibility of breaking the neck. Most were nebulous about whether or not it was possible, the main argument being that the one doing the breaking need be very strong, though this was just as unsupported as any of the other claims.

The chief arguments against were "wrestlers and bjj people do neck techniques all the time and you don't hear about breaks", but, considering they're not trying to break each other's necks, this is a moot point.

In fairness, none of the sites were run by some sort of cross between Dr. Mengele and a chiropractor.

If there were specific research, it would be interesting to read. Most of the content is people arguing on martial arts forums. I'm not sure how one could legally prove any of it. Cadavers, I suppose, but that's a bit creepy.

[Frost]

Jesus, and people wonder why the good posters dont post here so much anymore
i thought we were passed this whole breaking the neck cr*p :confused:

(drake this is not aimed at you)

[Taixuquan99]

Jesus, and people wonder why the good posters dont post here so much anymore
i thought we were passed this whole breaking the neck cr*p :confused:

(drake this is not aimed at you)

Me and two or three other people here talking about neck breaking does not equate to anything but just that. Hell, the three who are saying this are not even among the most frequent posters. I can totally live with "I think you're wrong, here's why", but that's not really what happens, oh well.

Seriously, I've looked at the "debunking" on Google, unless I'm missing some actual salient info, it's as unproven as the claim for it. I am actually genuinely curious if there is actual info out there.

I would hardly say that it would be something one does for self defense, or the first option when control of the neck is gained.

But, I doubt there is a single member here, including those arguing against it, that would let another person crank on their neck violently. Because of common sense.

I think one can injure someone's neck badly, including break it. That is all. I would not work to prove it, and I do not benefit from the claim. Why should that make me arrogant? Snobbish?

I'm not averse to you disagreeing. But I haven't seen the evidence that makes you so certain. So it's fun to discuss, and am open to that evidence.

Have I given you some previous idea that I am snobbish and unwilling to be proven wrong about a martial topic? No. So what's the problem?

[Lucas]

if you really wanted to break someones neck, the easiest way would be to render them unconcious first so that there is no resistance. but at that point you could do a lot more damage to them then breaking their neck. most people do not die from breaking their neck, so death wouldnt be your goal, or you would simply open an artery with a sharp object. you really want to F someone up, curb stomp them and then put a bottle into their mouth and kick their broken jaw so the bottle shatters.

[Taixuquan99]

if you really wanted to break someones neck, the easiest way would be to render them unconcious first so that there is no resistance. but at that point you could do a lot more damage to them then breaking their neck. most people do not die from breaking their neck, so death wouldnt be your goal, or you would simply open an artery with a sharp object. you really want to F someone up, curb stomp them and then put a bottle into their mouth and kick their broken jaw so the bottle shatters.

This sounds good, but I am not clear how I am being any more theoretical than you when I say one can break a conscious person's neck. All the info I see is conjecture on either side.

For example, I might counter that to break someone's neck, the neck must move suddenly in relation to the body, or vice versa. This might actually be harder if they are dead weight, whereas, if one could find a throw where the lower body is shifted, but the head immobilized, then it's possible, or, if one was standing and had a guillotine applied, and violently shifted their own waist/torso(and thus, the opponent's neck), but the opponent was double weighted and could not release the pressure, do you know anyone who would allow this to be done to themselves?

[Lucas]

its all theoretical, for sure. i wasnt eluding to either it being or not being theoretical. when i break necks i just do a little twist to the neck like the terminator, cuz im bad. but thats me. :rolleyes:

but hey bro, you can come break my neck!

[Taixuquan99]

To be clear, I don't teach people to neck break, I don't train to do so, but discuss it? Why not? I think most people tend to only allow neck techniques done on them by certain people or in circumstances with specific rules for a reason. I don't believe that anyone alive would willingly allow anyone else to violently twist their neck.

Thus, everyone else agrees with me, for all practical purposes. We may all be wrong, but to my knowledge we all agree.

Until I see vid proving otherwise.:p:D

[Taixuquan99]

its all theoretical, for sure. i wasnt eluding to either it being or not being theoretical. when i break necks i just do a little twist to the neck like the terminator, cuz im bad. but thats me. :rolleyes:

I make threads about the inseparable nature of qi and li(pattern), and people break their own necks for me. This is internal.


but hey bro, you can come break my neck!

Not until I have my armor made and we weapon spar. Then I'll break your neck like Batman did Joker in Miller's Dark Knight, so I'll only break it a little, and you'll have to break it the rest of the way. Being a reclusive billionaire, you understand.

[Lucas]

hells ya!!!!!!

[Taixuquan99]

Drake,

I think Golden Arm may have got dragged into our flame war a bit more than he deserved, he had nothing to do with my flammage of you.

[YouKnowWho]

Everything in TCMA are "relative" and not "absolute". Your chance to break the neck of a

- new born baby may be 100%.
- 10 years old may be 70%.
- 15 years old may be 40%.
- ...

Technique is only the 50%. The other 50% is the ability. Unfortunately the ability training is all hard work and there is no easy path.

[Dragonzbane76]

if you really wanted to break someones neck, the easiest way would be to render them unconcious first so that there is no resistance. but at that point you could do a lot more damage to them then breaking their neck. most people do not die from breaking their neck, so death wouldnt be your goal, or you would simply open an artery with a sharp object. you really want to F someone up, curb stomp them and then put a bottle into their mouth and kick their broken jaw so the bottle shatters.

honestly if someone "does" break my neck or something along those lines I hope they just finish me off. Don't really want to live a life all messed up from that anyhow.

[lance]

Ok,

So you have an easy opening to apply some kind of head grasping technique, what in your experience causes the most and fastest discomfort and most difficulty for him to counter? Using any type of hold do you;

Focus on crushing the wind pipe?

Focus on strangling the arteries?

Focus on twisting the neck using some kind of pivot like the chin or a fishhook or facelock e.t.c?

Some kind of combination of any of the above?

Something else entirely?




I always find I am made most uncomfortable with neck twisting, but I rarely use it myself as I am rather squeamish about applying it in sparring.

Depending on how the sparring partner attacks you , if you partner knows that you ' re going to apply a choke hold on him , he ' s going resist against you , so the minute you get pass his attack and have a good chance go for the choke hold or apply the techniques you want to apply on your partner , but be careful . Because if you apply full force you can break his neck or really strangle your partner , so use caution . I would rather choke the person out .