Touch surface or go into detail?

[YouKnowWho]

Just talked to a Kung Fu Magazine editor on the phone. He asked my opinion about his magazine. I told him that I feel most of the articles just don't have enough detail in it. He said when most people wrote their articles, they didn't like to give away all the detail. It might be hard for them to obtain such information, it makes no sense to give away to the public for free.

My concern is, if you don't give enough detail, how will people be able to tell whether you try to hide information, or you just don't know? This also apply to our online discussion.

In all discussions, if you just

- touch the surafce, people will say that you don't know anything.
- go into detail, people will say that you try to show off, and shove your idea into other's throat.

What's your opinion on this?

[Brule]

I don't understand the whole thing about not giving it away for free thing. Kung fu is about working hard at obtaining a skill and that skill can't be passed from one person to another by words, it's done by feel. Sure words can add to the transmission, but only to a certain extent.

[YouKnowWho]

Is it "stupid" to give information away for free?

[dirtyrat]

Is it "stupid" to give information away for free?

its "stupid" only if you're giving it to the "stupid" :D

[Drake]

I doubt there's a technique left on this planet that you can't Google.

Being vague only opens yourself up for criticism. We are steadily leaving the world where just because you have silk pajamas, a gi with a billion patches, or developed "TEH DEADLIEZ" fighting art based on your three year enlistment in the Army, doesn't mean people are going to listen to you?

Grandmaster? Black Belt? So what? Show me the money!

It's a cynical outlook, but it's true.

[dirtyrat]

[QUOTE=Drake;1142248]I doubt there's a technique left on this planet that you can't Google.
QUOTE]

while this may be true, there are some people who can perform a technique with a lot less effort than most.

in kung fu, there is an expression, "touch hands". refinements in certain techniques hard to described in words or even on video. often times it has to be felt. and usually, you show it when the students ready.

[YouKnowWho]

I doubt there's a technique left on this planet that you can't Google.

IMO, the technique is important but how to set it up is even more important. To use a hook punch to set up a turn back/hook kick is an excellent idea. Not everybody know that combo.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

[dirtyrat]

back on topic, i say "go into detail". it may or may not sink in, depending on the student's development & understanding. it may even help some get over a hurdle in their development.

[Lucas]

we no longer need to hide pugilistic elements from other people for self preservations sake. martial techniques are no longer sensitive information. this is an old mindset and tactic, carried on by traditionalists for no other reason besides that was how things were done when not letting your enemies know the methods by which you train to kill was important.

[Dragonzbane76]

it's already been done somewhere at sometime and is probably on the net. What's the use of hiding anything? Put it out there to be crit. and expand on the information given. This is the problem I see with TCMA, they try to state that things are "hidden" and can only be got through some mystical connection. Bullsh!t. Nothing that can't be explained through modern means, if your afraid to put it out there because of people tearing it appart, then it must not be a very effective thing then therefore not worth the time.

[Lucas]

i think since we are able to reverse map the universe to point of origin and understand the complex process in which things have come into being, then i think trying to hide your martial art methods or techniques is irrelevant. we are so far past that.

[Taixuquan99]

Just talked to a Kung Fu Magazine editor on the phone. He asked my opinion about his magazine. I told him that I feel most of the articles just don't have enough detail in it. He said when most people wrote their articles, they didn't like to give away all the detail. It might be hard for them to obtain such information, it makes no sense to give away to the public for free.

My concern is, if you don't give enough detail, how will people be able to tell whether you try to hide information, or you just don't know? This also apply to our online discussion.

In all discussions, if you just

- touch the surafce, people will say that you don't know anything.
- go into detail, people will say that you try to show off, and shove your idea into other's throat.

What's your opinion on this?

100% Agree with you. I have no interest in articles that talk about "the deadly digits of Wudang" that talk about interesting looking things in zero detail.

Sadly, if I want to become familiar with techniques or a style of kung fu, I always watch youtube clips of SJ or sanshou or, depending on the source, push hands. Almost all articles are for beginners, and not beginners of that style, but people with no possibility of ever practicing whatever the article is about. I have two articles I wrote a little while back that I've just basically shelved because I find that, given the limitations of the medium, either lack the space to cover anything meaningful other than pointlessly introducing the style, which no one is likely to find a teacher of anyway, or arguing a practice that is useful, but frankly, shouldn't need arguing, and is probably better argued by results.

[bawang]

secrets were important in old times when people used to compete on lei tai for money. today its used to control your students and feed your ego.

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Excellent post topic!


Just talked to a Kung Fu Magazine editor on the phone. He asked my opinion about his magazine. I told him that I feel most of the articles just don't have enough detail in it. He said when most people wrote their articles, they didn't like to give away all the detail.

This is why I do not subscribe to any MA magazines. Most articles seem to be fluff or deal with issues I care nothing about.
I may purchase a magazine at the local bookstore if I see something of interest in it. But I probably buy only one or two issues a year.



In all discussions, if you... go into detail, people will say that you try to show off, and shove your idea into other's throat.

It amazes me when peeps get ****ed because someone is sharing things that are perceived as "teh secret" or "teh deadly". This is usually a sign that someone feels another is getting in the way of their own self-promotion.



What's your opinion on this?

Put up, or shut up! Less fluff, more stuff! LOL!


secrets were important in old times when people used to compete on lei tai for money. today its used to control your students and feed your ego.

Sometimes Bawang is a GENIUS!!!

[TenTigers]

Good points. I stopped subscribing to MA mags as well, due to the fact that one, they only scratched the surface, or showed fluff, two; the techniques shown were mostly crap applications, or three: they were articles on bullsh1t made up styles, just to fill the rag.

I would subscribe again in a heartbeat, if the articles were well written, and presented good material, good techniques, methods, and more in depth.
But, I can't single-handedly write every issue...:D

[SPJ]

Just talked to a Kung Fu Magazine editor on the phone. He asked my opinion about his magazine. I told him that I feel most of the articles just don't have enough detail in it. He said when most people wrote their articles, they didn't like to give away all the detail. It might be hard for them to obtain such information, it makes no sense to give away to the public for free.

My concern is, if you don't give enough detail, how will people be able to tell whether you try to hide information, or you just don't know? This also apply to our online discussion.

In all discussions, if you just

- touch the surafce, people will say that you don't know anything.
- go into detail, people will say that you try to show off, and shove your idea into other's throat.

What's your opinion on this?

Those who know know.

Those who dun know dun know.

Such is the life in the real world

as well as on the internet, web or interweb.

I usually give away a few clues or key points at a time.

not hiding anything. just not saying all the things.

such as as far as I know or AFAIK.

or in my humble opinions or IMHO.

and mostly laugh out loud or LOL.

:D

[David Jamieson]

Is it "stupid" to give information away for free?

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and you've lost yourself a perfectly good business opportunity.

[Scott R. Brown]

Some times less is more.

Sometimes less is less than less!

[YouKnowWho]

I usually give away a few clues or key points at a time.

not hiding anything. just not saying all the things.

That's very traditional TCMA approach indeed.

When my teacher was young, he wanted to learn a particular skill (double hooks throw) from a tea shop owner. Since he knew that the old man of that tea shop didn't want to teach that special skill to anybody outside of his family, my teacher went to his shop and provided free labor for 1 and 1/2 years. Oneday during the closing time, the old man told my teacher (he was just a boy), "I know what you are up to. Now watch, I'll only show you once." The old man shown my teach a 5 moves solo drill for only 10 seconds. The old man then said, "Go home and never come back again." That night my teacher didn't sleep. He got hold of his brother and figured out what the old man tried to show him. Next morning, my teacher took his brother and performed the application from that solo drill in front of the old man. The old man said, "You may know how to do it, but can you use it?" 2 months later, in a local SC tournament, my teacher used the move (double hooks throw) that the old man taught him. After the tournament, the old man walked over from the audience site and spent 3 hours to explain that move to my teacher in detail.

If my teacher wasn't smart enough to figure application out of a solo drill, the connection between the old man and my teacher would just ternimate there. If my teacher wasn't serious enough to dig deeper into the solo drill, the old man won't waste any more time on my teacher. That 10 seconds would be all my teacher got. When the old man found out that my teacher was smart enouugh and also serious enough, there would be no way that he won't teach my teacher everything that he knew.

My teaher loved to say, "You guys in the modern time always want to learn 5 or 6 moves in 1 day. I spent 1 and 1/2 years just to learn 1 move only".

[MightyB]

Hate to say it - but this magazine (http://jiujitsumag.com/) comes closest to doing it right IMO. It's very well put together. Using some, not all of the ideas from how that magazine is laid out could help, but do it in a kung fu way.

Years ago there was a magazine that's no longer in print that had a short martial musings type of piece in every issue. It was my favourite part of the magazine. It would be excerpts of historical fiction or non fiction... think like an excerpt of outlaws of the marsh. Just short, only a couple of paragraphs.

[ginosifu]

Just talked to a Kung Fu Magazine editor on the phone. He asked my opinion about his magazine. I told him that I feel most of the articles just don't have enough detail in it. He said when most people wrote their articles, they didn't like to give away all the detail. It might be hard for them to obtain such information, it makes no sense to give away to the public for free.

My concern is, if you don't give enough detail, how will people be able to tell whether you try to hide information, or you just don't know? This also apply to our online discussion.

In all discussions, if you just

- touch the surafce, people will say that you don't know anything.
- go into detail, people will say that you try to show off, and shove your idea into other's throat.

What's your opinion on this?

While teaching, we have to give all they can handle according to their skill level and ability to absorb the material. I do not believe in secrets or hiding any stuff, but I do believe that students need to wait until are ready for certain material.

I do not give detailed instruction on how to grab someones throat or striking the temple to a beginner. A lot of people giving away information thru magazines or web forums only give beginner material. Whether it is because they do not want to give us their advanced material because they want to make us pay for it or we did not earn it yet or even if they do not have that information to give, does not matter.

If you want advanced material... then get together with advanced teachers and exchange info or become their student. I do not look for advanced info from magazine or here on the web. If I want some advanced techniques or info I will contact the teacher and sit down with them.


Is it "stupid" to give information away for free?

Giving away info for free is for teachers who teach out of their back yards or the park. If you run a commercial school, giving away info fro free is just plain stupid and will probably force you to shut down your school.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

So tonight, after years of working on it, watching videos, going to clinics, being shown and reshown from a variety of instructors... I finally, FINALLY got hane goshi to click. I got it now - so much so that I think it's going to become a goto technique for me. What you don't understand - is that up to tonight, hane goshi was my nemesis. I couldn't do it, now I got it.

My point is... no matter how much you give in a magazine... there's no way that you could possibly give it all... even if you tried. Why, because learning is doing.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Now days the MA magazine is more about the personalities.

When it comes to the technical stuff, there is so much information out there, rendering the MA magazine useless. And because of the amount of information available, it becomes ever more difficult to present something worthwhile.

The only thing that would still float during this time would be martial arts research journal, that would flexibly use video as a means of providing insights and instruction, while preserving knowledge. Flush the egos down the toilet.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

When I read a magazine, I hope I can improve my combat ability after reading. There was a magazie that countain "3 moves combo" from different styles. That was the best combat information that I have seen so far. A "3 moves combo" like the following clip can help me a great deal.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

[Taixuquan99]

Frankly, the most complex stuff are shuai and na, because both depend so much on knowing where your opponent is moving and what opportunities that opens, and both are less forgiving than striking in regards to being off the mark.

The stuff people hide on shuai and na in CMA is stuff that good judo teachers reflexively say over and over again, that is repeated a thousand times in judo articles and books and forums.

To know it to the point that you consider it obvious and hardly a secret, so that it would never occur to you to hide it, knowing that saying it is hardly the same as entraining it, is mastery.

You can't steal it from text, and it is only useful information to those skilled enough to understand it or those who are studying it under such people.

This is not like form. It can't be stolen. Everyone can look up any major bjj move, but bjj schools are still doing quite well, comparatively.

When mastery has a real quality that is measurable by ability to apply, then the measure of a teacher is not secret moves, but how well they and their students can apply what they know. How things are entrained may be kept secret for a fighting team, what specific moves they are focusing on for competition may be kept inside the school, but to hide one's entire style, one must even hide it to some extent from one's students, and since one's students are really the only ones in most cases trying to learn it, it becomes counterproductive.

The more students a mma school has that can fight, the better for the school, which means exposure of the material. Withholding material has had the opposite effect on kung fu schools.

The deep secrets people hint at here in kung fu are often things that could be found discussed openly in good books on other styles, and they are not "high level", there is no high level, there is a tech that includes all that makes it functional and the knowledge of when it is used, versus a tech that has been tampered with and made useless.

I have never seen a person with the encyclopedic knowledge of their style that a teacher should have that does not constantly offhandedly discuss more technique level aspects of their style than most members have done in our whole memberships here. YKW is typical of this. Even Bawang, who is probably younger than most here, discusses way more technique than many teachers on here, in between other things. Most people discuss their kung fu as though they were muay thai guys who only discussed the plum, or the round kick, only the stereotypical muay thai moves, so most Wing Chun discussion focuses on a couple things, ignoring the role of the rest of the moves, same with the rest of the styles. We all know the few in each style who go beyond this to an extent, and appreciate them and would study with them years before the more vague people.

YKW lets go, by far, of the most information on this forum about specific techniques, daily, monthly, yearly, and yet experienced guys on here all have said they would study under him. So secrecy doesn't seem to attract the best students.

Mastery is not knowledge, it is knowledge entrained. Sharing knowledge all day cannot entrain it for the people reading it.

Additionally, the last thing kung fu teachers currently need to worry about is people stealing their kung fu.

A teacher who has consumate listening and technical skills will always, assuming they have business acumen, have a chance at running a school.

[Taixuquan99]

When it comes to the technical stuff, there is so much information out there, rendering the MA magazine useless.

I would say that the english language material on the subject is highly limited in scope, with a broad range of books effectively little more than form. Especially where empty hand is concerned.

In Chinese, you are correct to an extent, but in English, I cannot agree.

[mickey]

Greetings Taixuquan99,

When you draw a comparative like that, I will have to agree with you.

Yet, a journal with video accompaniment would do a lot to narrow that gulf.

mickey

[Taixuquan99]

Greetings Taixuquan99,

When you draw a comparative like that, I will have to agree with you.

Yet, a journal with video accompaniment would do a lot to narrow that gulf.

mickey

I totally agree.

[-N-]

You can't steal it from text, and it is only useful information to those skilled enough to understand it or those who are studying it under such people.

+1

Same for video too.

But you see on this forum for example, when someone gives away deep knowledge, a couple things frequently happen... some that don't understand just repeat it to impress others, or else there is no response because nobody knows what the heck it means.

[TenTigers]

Greetings,
When it comes to the technical stuff, there is so much information out there, rendering the MA magazine useless. And because of the amount of information available, it becomes ever more difficult to present something worthwhile.
mickey

hmmm..not so sure about that. In this forum, and in a few others, people have exchanged knowledge, and put some pretty good stuff out there.
There is still a lot of information that is not readily available on internet.
Sometimes, through discussion, gems are found.
I have found that sometimes one paragraph, even a sentence, is worth the price of the whole magazine, or book. Sometimes, all it takes is that little gem, to open up a whole world of possibilities and understanding.

[Taixuquan99]

+1

Same for video too.

But you see on this forum for example, when someone gives away deep knowledge, a couple things frequently happen... some that don't understand just repeat it to impress others, or else there is no response because nobody knows what the heck it means.

My view is, it's no loss if no one gets it, and if someone does, the resultant discussion is mostly useful for the serious practitioners, so I see it as a win-win.

Twenty years ago, people were teaching forms they had never really studied the style of. When the focus is technique level discussion, this kills the ability of such shenanigans, and the people who tend to steal form as such also tend to not be able to attract good training partners so that, when technical discussion is available, they are unable to entrain it with a partner. Further, by being open with technique level discussion, one ends up being more open to examining variations, which gives people room to test ideas out who maybe aren't as confident in their knowledge, but do have some knowledge.

As it stands, technique level discussion would improve the overall level of kung fu, and certainly not diminish the ability of the best.

[Taixuquan99]

hmmm..not so sure about that. In this forum, and in a few others, people have exchanged knowledge, and put some pretty good stuff out there.
There is still a lot of information that is not readily available on internet.
Sometimes, through discussion, gems are found.
I have found that sometimes one paragraph, even a sentence, is worth the price of the whole magazine, or book. Sometimes, all it takes is that little gem, to open up a whole world of possibilities and understanding.

I know what you're saying, but I find that, in english language kung fu manuals, this is more an indictment of the lack of information. The book often isn't worth it, the line is, imo. These manuals are usually very, very light on usage or on analysis beyond a principle level analysis.

[YouKnowWho]

When it comes to the technical stuff, there is so much information out there,

Try to Google a valid counter for "撕(Si) - tearing" and see if you can find any information on it.

[bawang]

google kung fu fighting stance.

[YouKnowWho]

google kung fu fighting stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=F2TqTnQVSbHBjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ikigaiway.com/2008/practical-tips-for-beginner-sparring/&docid=3j1LLV571FYePM&imgurl=http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CLASS/130-112~Bruce-Lee-Posters.jpg&w=353&h=450&ei=WVq7TuOCMOWJiAL88-iJBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=355&vpy=160&dur=1116&hovh=254&hovw=199&tx=137&ty=150&sig=109104337924873506081&page=2&tbnh=154&tbnw=121&start=20&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:20

[-N-]

My view is, it's no loss if no one gets it, and if someone does, the resultant discussion is mostly useful for the serious practitioners, so I see it as a win-win.

[...]

As it stands, technique level discussion would improve the overall level of kung fu, and certainly not diminish the ability of the best.

Pretty much agreed for the high level people.

But some high level people have commented to me about being reluctant to share due to low level pretenders using the information to self promote towards newbies and spreading mediocrity.

[Taixuquan99]

Pretty much agreed for the high level people.

But some high level people have commented to me about being reluctant to share due to low level pretenders using the information to self promote towards newbies and spreading mediocrity.

If they are faking technical knowledge that flat out explained to them, they're already mediocre. The person spreading good info isn't responsible for that, in fact, they tried to help.

There's a local guy who tries to pick up how to do fajing from watching others. I tried to explain to him, "Look, it's not about adding something to a move, the move has it already. We don't do the same style, so trying to get my fajing by applying it to your techs won't do it. You've got plenty to work with, it's not about getting new tricks at this point."

He didn't listen, because he wants things he can sell, but that stuff doesn't sell anymore, frankly. More and more, the main thing one can do to attract students long term is apply well, not do forms and make them prettier. He wants skill, but he's mediocre AND he doesn't get that it's not a solo dance where you can worry about losing face, you have to work in a resisting manner in which everyone knows everyone else can be affected by good kung fu/good martial technique applied crisply.

I don't worry about the ones who don't get it and want it easy, I don't worry about hiding things from them or anything, it's enough of my time just to try to always improve at what I do and broaden my understanding of it and entrain at my level of understanding. I won't underperform in order to hide my kung fu, if I'm doing kung fu it's so I can improve, I can't improve if I'm hiding.

A total hack with no understanding will either choose understanding or choose to be a fake, that's not on me or anyone else but them. Since they usually choose not to be in a situation where someone can look better than them, they won't stick around. Because I don't use student instructors, I have no concern over people claiming that I made them teachers, and if someone learns the system from me, does nothing in developing it for teaching, and teaches poorly, I don't have a problem saying "I taught him, whatever he's done with it is his responsibility, if he's better than what I taught, good on him, if worse, c'est la vie."

I'm more concerned about teaching a sociopath. I don't like worrying about what sketchy people will do. And I tire of people who are concerned with winning when they should be concerned with technique, and concerned with face when they should be concerned with winning. A mediocrity doesn't worry me. I guess I'm an odd one.

[mickey]

Greetings,

"Out there" is not limited to the internet.

If I want to learn about tearing, I will try to find someone who knows about it. I would not wait for it to show up in a freakin' magazine. this is the point that I was making.

mickey

[Taixuquan99]

Greetings,

"Out there" is not limited to the internet.

If I want to learn about tearing, I will try to find someone who knows about it. I would not wait for it to show up in a freakin' magazine. this is the point that I was making.

mickey

I understand, but I tend to think a body of experts, without even trying, tends to produce material, in writing, video, etc, that covers major areas of the material.

If I rule out material that is only form, if I rule out material that is a teacher showing off on a student to the class, mostly talking, mostly covering little material and their students mostly showing little ability, if I rule out breaks, this takes away 90% of the material out there. The other 10% tends to be the good stuff, go figure.

Since we're online, since people are making vids, since we're watching them and reading what they have to say, I see nothing wrong with stating that the most qualified who do these things always produce deeper content that is more practical, and utterly fails to hide their qualifications, and that this is the sign of good kung fu, and the lack of decent english language materials on the subject IS NOT a good sign, nor evidence of it being secret as much as it is evidence of a dearth of technique level understanding that you always see in arts that are robust in their current fighting tradition.

Fighting arts with strong training traditions in fighting produce strong written traditions in the modern era, which helps increase the overall quality of the training. We need to embrace this, imo, which requires technique level discussion and analysis. In this realm, one must hand major cudos to members like YKW, Ross, Bawang, Master Killer, etc, and no cudos to the RWilsons, Hardworks, Ray Pinas, who provide no technique level discussion of cma, who disrupt it, or who spend all their time saying what not to do and engaging in stock arguments and insults, but will not or cannot suggest what, on a technique level, they know about their kung fu or they feel is worth working on.

On a discussion board for kung fu, it is impossible to argue that technique level discussion of kung fu is not worth the time for those who wish to pursue it, and most would assume that exactly that level of discussion is common on a board frequented by many kung fu people. The rest are welcome to ignore it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are gonna talk about something then talk about it, ALL OF IT.
If you are not going to talk about it in its entirety then don't bother.

If you don't know enough about it then shut up and listen.
IF you think you know more then state your case SHOWING that you know more.

If not STFU and listen and learn.

[BakShaolinEC]

i would like to discuss this further, but i dont discuss things for free. ;)

i stopped reading martial arts magazines also. if a teacher doesn't want to reveal everything or keep some stuff out. then so be it. can't tell a person on how to do something.

sure it might confuse or make for a less then complete article, but that's his and the publishers problem.

[Taixuquan99]

If you are gonna talk about something then talk about it, ALL OF IT.
If you are not going to talk about it in its entirety then don't bother.

If you don't know enough about it then shut up and listen.
IF you think you know more then state your case SHOWING that you know more.

If not STFU and listen and learn.

Sometimes, room must be made for a conversation, which requires members willing to fight for good contributions AND staff willing to get disruptive elements out of the way without crying about it.:p:D

For example, on the member side, this sub-forum had ridiculous excuses for conversation for a solid month, suddenly there's more focused conversation due to the members self correcting. Watch closely, this will make the purposefully disruptive members more obvious.

[Taixuquan99]

i would like to discuss this further, but i dont discuss things for free. ;)

i stopped reading martial arts magazines also. if a teacher doesn't want to reveal everything or keep some stuff out. then so be it. can't tell a person on how to do something.

sure it might confuse or make for a less then complete article, but that's his and the publishers problem.

Our not buying it is the publisher's problem as well.

[Taixuquan99]

To reiterate, a bjj black belt with business savvy pulls every bit as much money in as a cma teacher with business savvy, despite the fact that the entirety of bjj is available in print. Open technique level analysis and discussion is common online and in print for bjj, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, judo, etc. This has been a boon to those arts, and mainly hurts the teachers teaching "mma" who do not have a real familiarity with mma, since those styles play so heavily into many people's mma.

[BakShaolinEC]

Our not buying it is the publisher's problem as well.

exactly ;) I didn't need to write about it for it to be understood.

maybe some of the "masters/sifus" that write articles think some basics are understood.

[BakShaolinEC]

To reiterate, a bjj black belt with business savvy pulls every bit as much money in as a cma teacher with business savvy, despite the fact that the entirety of bjj is available in print. Open technique level analysis and discussion is common online and in print for bjj, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, judo, etc. This has been a boon to those arts, and mainly hurts the teachers teaching "mma" who do not have a real familiarity with mma, since those styles play so heavily into many people's mma.

there is so much kung fu out there. I would love to see everything in print: forms, techniques, etc. but the fact is. there is probably 100x more stuff in kung fu then BJJ.

Sure most of it is garbage that you probably wouldn't be able to use. but there are already books out there of "Police kung fu", "effective and easy chin na", "combat kung fu" etc.

[Taixuquan99]

there is so much kung fu out there. I would love to see everything in print: forms, techniques, etc. but the fact is. there is probably 100x more stuff in kung fu then BJJ.

Sure most of it is garbage that you probably wouldn't be able to use. but there are already books out there of "Police kung fu", "effective and easy chin na", "combat kung fu" etc.

I think the differences between kung fu styles is overstated in most cases. The footwork is the same in the vast majority. Most of the hand techniques are merely variations of the same things. Technique level discussion of any kung fu style is effectively technique level discussion of most kung fu styles.

Hell, I'm the ONLY member on here who does my style, and I find most of the good discussions very applicable to what I do.

[BakShaolinEC]

I think the differences between kung fu styles is overstated in most cases. The footwork is the same in the vast majority. Most of the hand techniques are merely variations of the same things. Technique level discussion of any kung fu style is effectively technique level discussion of most kung fu styles

agreed. then lets not beat it to death again. its all the practitioner. not the style.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It is interesting because my base system of Pai Lum contains a mixture of Hawain Kempo, Goju-Ryu Karate, Hung Gar, Shaolin, Seven Star Mantis, and god knows what else. Pretty much anything Dan Pai learned he incorporated into the system as did his senior students, most of which were already accomplished martial artists. My teacher's teacher was an accompished Judoka.

And ironically enough, with all that mixture and mismatch, when done correctly it looks like pretty much all other martial arts.:)

[MightyB]

The reason I posted the link to that mag that I did is because I like the way they do things. Like they'd take one technique - they'd go into details about it, then do a section on drilling methods for that one technique. Plus they'd scratch on variations that you might see with that technique. Then - they'd do a video tie in on youtube :eek:

It's waayyy cool.

[Taixuquan99]

The reason I posted the link to that mag that I did is because I like the way they do things. Like they'd take one technique - they'd go into details about it, then do a section on drilling methods for that one technique. Plus they'd scratch on variations that you might see with that technique. Then - they'd do a video tie in on youtube :eek:

It's waayyy cool.

I agree. 98765

[YouKnowWho]

In online discussion, you may just touch the surface 1st. If people are

- interest in your subject, you may go a layer deeper.
- not interest in your subject, the discussion could just end right there.

In a magazine, the amount of information is fixed. There will be no continuation after that.

[mooyingmantis]

SECRETS seem to only be for English speaking audiences!

The attitude we see in the U.S. that certain techniques, forms, etc. must be kept from the masses is definitely a phenomenon of our culture.

However, modern Chinese literature tells all.

For example, I do not know of a single book in the English language that deals with the Ba Zhou (eight elbows) form of Tanglangquan in depth. Yet, Chinese books and VCDs/DVDs cover this form in depth and in its entirety. Quanpu, how to and applications taught by respected masters are all open to the reader.

It is silly to pretend that certain things are still secret. Actually, you just have to know where to look.

Knowledge is power and some withhold knowledge to elevate themselves above others. As long as they can convince others that only they hold THE SECRET, they can keep their followers loyal to them.

One reason that I post my translations of Chinese texts on this forum rather than submitting them for publication in magazines or books is to make the information available to everyone. The cat has been out of the bag for years. Many have just been kept in the dark about the fact.

[YouKnowWho]

My concern is nobody forced you to write article in magazine. If you don't feel like to write, you don't have to. If you do feel like to write, why just release partial information (unless you don't know the rest)? I don't believe any professor would not teach his students all he knows in his class.

[TenTigers]

SECRETS seem to only be for English speaking audiences!

The attitude we see in the U.S. that certain techniques, forms, etc. must be kept from the masses is definitely a phenomenon of our culture.

However, modern Chinese literature tells all.

For example, I do not know of a single book in the English language that deals with the Ba Zhou (eight elbows) form of Tanglangquan in depth. Yet, Chinese books and VCDs/DVDs cover this form in depth and in its entirety. Quanpu, how to and applications taught by respected masters are all open to the reader.

It is silly to pretend that certain things are still secret. Actually, you just have to know where to look.

Knowledge is power and some withhold knowledge to elevate themselves above others. As long as they can convince others that only they hold THE SECRET, they can keep their followers loyal to them.



Good point. Years back, there were some people who, because they had various
Kuen po translations, thought that they were the sheit, and made no bones about bringing it up at every opportunity-articles, online forums, etc.
It turned out, that what they did NOT possess, was the hand, the real understanding of the technique, and the skill to use it.

[TenTigers]

Hell, I'm the ONLY member on here who does my style, and I find most of the good discussions very applicable to what I do.
yep-same here.

[YouKnowWho]

In order to be able to pick up some useful information from any magazine article, you will need to have some basic TCMA knowledge. Here is one example:

A: How did you "inner hook" him?
B: I fake him first.
A: How did you fake him?
B: I knee him.

If you don't understand the term "inner hook", or if you can't connect the fake "knee him" with "inner hook", the above discussion won't make any sense to you. In online discussion, you can ask someone to provide more detail. In a magazine article, you just don't have that luxury.

[Taixuquan99]

My concern is nobody forced you to write article in magazine. If you don't feel like to write, you don't have to. If you do feel like to write, why just release partial information (unless you don't know the rest)? I don't believe any professor would not teach his students all he knows in his class.

This is spot on. Part of the problem is that the medium and the market often does not allow for it. Readers are not necessarily buying 1500 word articles that are dense with real content. So people write about rope darts, and it's like "They're deadly. They fit in your pants. They were in China." With about 1470 extra words, and some pictures.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SECRETS seem to only be for English speaking audiences!

The attitude we see in the U.S. that certain techniques, forms, etc. must be kept from the masses is definitely a phenomenon of our culture.

However, modern Chinese literature tells all.

For example, I do not know of a single book in the English language that deals with the Ba Zhou (eight elbows) form of Tanglangquan in depth. Yet, Chinese books and VCDs/DVDs cover this form in depth and in its entirety. Quanpu, how to and applications taught by respected masters are all open to the reader.

It is silly to pretend that certain things are still secret. Actually, you just have to know where to look.

Knowledge is power and some withhold knowledge to elevate themselves above others. As long as they can convince others that only they hold THE SECRET, they can keep their followers loyal to them.

One reason that I post my translations of Chinese texts on this forum rather than submitting them for publication in magazines or books is to make the information available to everyone. The cat has been out of the bag for years. Many have just been kept in the dark about the fact.

Richard has toe kicked the correct in the crotch !

[YouKnowWho]

SECRETS seem to only be for English speaking audiences!

IMO, SECRET does exist. For example, How do you counter when your body is lifted in the air by your opponent's "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" throw?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

When someone tells you the answer, it won't worth a penny. But when you don't know, you just don't know.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, SECRET does exist. For example, How do you counter when your body is lifted in the air by your opponent's "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" throw?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

Not sure what you mean there John, counters to throws are taught when the throw is taught.
There is no secret to countering an uchi mata and there are a few ways depending on where you find yourself and what you prefer to do.

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure what you mean there John, counters to throws are taught when the throw is taught.
There is no secret to countering an uchi mata and there are a few ways depending on where you find yourself and what you prefer to do.

For a "striker" who has never trained any throw, when that throw applies on him, he won't be able to respond correctly. To that person, how to handle that situation correctly is a "secret". It won't do him any good even if he can obtain that information afterward.

To me, secret is just something that "you don't know". If you don't know, you won't train. If you don't train, you won't develop correct body response.

Nothing is secret after you have known it, train it, and develop it. To different individual, the word secret may have different meaning.

[Subitai]

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and you've lost yourself a perfectly good business opportunity.

Gosh Dave...This is priceless man, I laughed so hard.


Anyway on topic,

Not only do some guys (ie authors of articles) only scratch the surface but they also steal other peoples work!!

Gene has had guys plagiarize his work, cut it up and rehash it only to submit it back to him. Whereby upon rejection of the "Said Article", Gene then sends some of his Ninjets over to dispatch them. :p:p

It's already been theorized that either authors are holding back or just don't know very much to begin with.

But mabe it's just different goals, mabe selfishness, mabe just business.

I know for myself, NOT BEING a famous OLD (Insert any Asian Master "___" here), I will never get the respect I may earn or deserve no matter how hard I've trained. But I keep on truckin' anyway.

How many times do you see an old Asian master teaching a seminar and nobody challenges them? Of course it's disrespectful and not appropriate and blah blah blah.
But when you're a Westerner forget it... you have to be able to roll in a heartbeat and even if you win...if it wasn't like a MOVIE, then you must not be that good. IT's totall B.S. but something I have to live with.

So that is ONE of a few reasons why, I don't fully share what I know to armchair keyboard jockeys who want to learn for free.

*** Not only that, I MEAN THIS WITH ALL SERIOUSNOUS:

If a person is not at a sufficient level to absorb what he's reading, all the detail in the world will be lost to him.

For example, how many times have you experienced that "Slaps Forhead = ala I coulda had a V8 moment" years after reading something over and over again? Why? Because it took that long for "YOU" ( or any Person in general) to mature enough to comprehend. It's just that simple.

Also,

The internet in general, breeds mediocrity. Prior to the Internet, to be published you had to REALLY BE AN EXPERT IN YOUR FIELD. Now any schmoe can blog his feelings.

Sincerely...Schmoe aka "O"

[MasterKiller]

The internet in general, breeds mediocrity. Prior to the Internet, to be published you had to REALLY BE AN EXPERT IN YOUR FIELD. Now any schmoe can blog his feelings."

Sorta like how you really had to have good actors and a real script to make movies until cheap cameras and video editing software came out....

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/0404_KWOON_DVD.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a "striker" who has never trained any throw, when that throw applies on him, he won't be able to respond correctly. To that person, how to handle that situation correctly is a "secret". It won't do him any good even if he can obtain that information afterward.

To me, secret is just something that "you don't know". If you don't know, you won't train. If you don't train, you won't develop correct body response.

Nothing is secret after you have known it, train it, and develop it. To different individual, the word secret may have different meaning.

Ah, understood, thanks :D

[Subitai]

Sorta like how you really had to have good actors and a real script to make movies until cheap cameras and video editing software came out....

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/0404_KWOON_DVD.jpg

You did notice I hope, that I called MYSELF a SCHMOE right?


Also, the slogan for that show was "Bad Acting Good Kung Fu" I've never professed to be an accomplished actor...so I lean towards the latter. 30 + yrs and still trying is all that matters.

The Schmoe "O"

[mooyingmantis]

Good point. Years back, there were some people who, because they had various
Kuen po translations, thought that they were the sheit, and made no bones about bringing it up at every opportunity-articles, online forums, etc.
It turned out, that what they did NOT possess, was the hand, the real understanding of the technique, and the skill to use it.

Absolutely! Intellectual understanding does not equal physical skill, nor does physical skill always equal technical understanding. Many TCMA peeps/shifu fall into one category or the other. It is the rare few you have both assets.

[YouKnowWho]

Good point. Years back, there were some people who, because they had various
Kuen po translations, thought that they were the sheit, and made no bones about bringing it up at every opportunity-articles, online forums, etc.
It turned out, that what they did NOT possess, was the hand, the real understanding of the technique, and the skill to use it.
Some teacher always asks his student whether his student wants to be a "fighter", or a "teacher". Kuen Po can be useful for those "teachers".

[MightyB]

this thread reads like a bunch of whiny old women bit*ch'n about Nancy's cross stitching magazine without offering any real solutions. You want a better magazine? Read a couple first and then man up and offer a few suggestions.

I don't have the answers. All I can say is that I'm a drill freak. I like drills that lead to skills. Have more TCMA drills, and I'll be more interested. They should lead to real skill development... like drills for a purpose. For example, let's take practical chin na. Most books on the subject are garbage... why? Because they show a simplified lock. They don't show drills, that are based on situation, that are replicable, that are possible to apply with increasing intensity, leading to real skill development. Figure out a way to print that and you have a better mag IMO.

[MightyB]

IMO, SECRET does exist. For example, How do you counter when your body is lifted in the air by your opponent's "leg lift (Uchi Mata)" throw?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

When someone tells you the answer, it won't worth a penny. But when you don't know, you just don't know.

Relax like Mifune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM) if you've missed blocking the set up or missed the opportunity to step out of it and ride it out in style.

[YouKnowWho]

Have more TCMA drills, and I'll be more interested. They should lead to real skill development... like drills for a purpose. For example, let's take practical chin na. Most books on the subject are garbage... why? Because they show a simplified lock. They don't show drills, that are based on situation, that are replicable, that are possible to apply with increasing intensity, leading to real skill development. Figure out a way to print that and you have a better mag IMO.

A good drill like this can benefit people from all styles.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The combo drill (use one move to set up next move) has great value. It tells us how a person thinks in his set up.

The most interest part of the Chin Na is not how to make a certain lock work. It's how to change from one lock into another lock when your opponent resists. Again, that also has to to with combo drill (use one move to set up next move).

[YouKnowWho]

Relax like Mifune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM) if you've missed blocking the set up or missed the opportunity to step out of it and ride it out in style.
I believe the best counter for that move is to jump on your opponent's back, ride him like a horse, and crash him all the way down to the ground.

[MightyB]

A good drill like this can benefit people from all styles.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The combo drill (use one move to set up next move) has great value. It tells us how a person thinks in his set up.
.

You'd probably like the works of Benny the Jet. He devoted many books and tapes to what he termed as 'techniques in motion' which were essentially a progressive set of drills leading to combos exactly as Cung Le did in that clip. They involved solo, pads, and two person drills.

[MightyB]

I believe the best counter for that move is to jump on your opponent's back, ride him like a horse, and crash him all the way down to the ground.

I've been working on a ride and sacrifice counter for all over the back type of loads. Unfortunately, if my opponent is smart, they "makikomi" the throw to counter my counter.

my counter is based off obi garuma. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwb_2oZlpo)

[YouKnowWho]

I've been working on a ride and sacrifice counter for all over the back type of loads. Unfortunately, if my opponent is smart, they "makikomi" the throw to counter my counter.

my counter is based off obi garuma. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwb_2oZlpo)

One 3 times national SC champion in Taiwan used the "leg lift" throw on his opponent, his opponent jumped on his neck and crashed him all the way down to the ground. With that neck injury, that 3 times national SC champion spend all his life on wheelchair. :(

[mooyingmantis]

You want a better magazine? Read a couple first and then man up and offer a few suggestions.

MightyB makes a good point here!

In my past professional work as a Christian minister I read many types of magazines in that field. There were three main types of magazine and each targeted a different audience:

1. Fluff magazines: These were meant to be inspirational. They had articles for the general lay audience. Not much intellectual stimuli, but they made you feel good and patted your faith on the back.

2. Lesson-based magazines: These dealt with more in-depth material that targeted those who wanted to know more about the Bible and things that related to the Bible (ancient societal customs, Middle Eastern history, archaeological finds, etc.).

3. Peer-reviewed Journals: These dealt with the intellectual nitty-gritty that few laymen would understand. Topics like Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek linguistics, theories on the development of the Judeo-Christian religion based on similar ideas found in other religions, theological disputes, etc..

Most of what we see on the market today in martial arts circles would fall in the first two categories with more emphasis on the first category. Typically we see the following:

1. Articles that highlight the activities of a personality/celebrity (the Shaolin Abbot, Bruce Lee, Wesley Snipes, etc.).

2. A simple concept (center-line theory, 12 bridging hands theory, long pole techniques, etc.).

3. Popular fables about a style's "history".

These are perceived as what the average reader wants. Perhaps it is. Marketing studies are done to gather information on what the major percentage of the population will buy. I don't believe article decisions are usually done with a dartboard. :)

Unfortunately, many of us here are NOT the average reader. We desire more substantive material. Some of us have trained for decades and have been there, done that. We desire something more along the lines of a journal as described above. The problem is that as readership goes, we are a very small minority that is not a large enough purchasing block to support the type of magazine we desire.

So, we are fortunate to have a forum like this to which we can turn. Over the years a lot of valuable information has been shared here.

In defense of KFM, they can only print what WE write. If you aren't writing or your students aren't writing articles, you have no right to *****. If you want deeper knowledge to be available, do your part and make it available from your perspective. :)

Since I am not interested in financial remuneration for what I share, I choose to share it on this forum. That way knowledge is not only shared, but peer review can be done by all of you. Sometimes I learn more from those who disagree with my ideas than those in the general public that might believe whatever I write. It just takes a lot thicker skin this way. :)