Movie Depictions of Fights

[Taixuquan99]

From the Depression and after WWII, movie fights were largely lots of punching each other, kicks were often flat footed shoves, there was some basic throws, there were sudden knifings, saps KOing people, and people sneaking up behind other people and breaking their necks.( ;) )

This was also the era when the most Americans were involved in poverty, riots, and after, the most Americans were trained by the military and saw wartime violence of any time since.

Now, fights are choreographed, people hardly ever get KOed by things that KO people, the goal is the most exotic break or throw or strike or kick, weapons hardly ever kill characters. And less people are confronted with real violence, though some still are.

A good example of the difference is Watchmen. The comic itself portrays fights exactly in keeping with the older movies above, the movie is totally in keeping with the newer movies below.

Just found it interesting.

Is your kung fu James Cagney, or Keanu Reeves?

[Lucas]

my kung fu is conan the barbarian. i routinely KO camels for spitting on me, and rip the unihorns out of demons faces with my manliness. and when i get mad at people, i just pick them up and throw them into walls or off cliffs, or i cut their heads off.

[ghostexorcist]

Is your kung fu James Cagney, or Keanu Reeves?

That depends. I know Cagney did some Judo throws, but did he ever bend a spoon with his mind or fight clones of a rogue computer virus with a club made from a steel post ripped from the ground?

I've always thought this was a pretty realistic fight (starts around 1:20).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrlxwlCHFXY

[YouKnowWho]

If I'll direct the fighting scene in movie. I'll include the following scene:

- You use "fireman's carry" to pick your opponent up over your head, and
- smash his head on the hard ground.
- His skull is cracked open.
- His brain and his blood come out of his skull.
- You pick up a chunk of his brain.
- Put it into your mouth.
- Blood and brain are dripping from your mouth.
- You look around, and
- see if anybody else want to mess with you.

[Lucas]

can i be in your movie?

[hskwarrior]

it must suck to live in a world where you hate gung fu.....:(

[Drake]

I'm not known for being subtle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvHqIwCWjdg&feature=related

[Lucas]

what makes you think we hate gong fu? I love gong fu bro

[hskwarrior]

what makes you think we hate gong fu? I love gong fu bro

not you. just the same old people who bring up the same old issues over and over and over overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand overand over

same old sh1t just redressed........

[David Jamieson]

haymakers and sucker shots.

in kung fu movies, you had the whole ritual combat aspect with the crazy attacks and defenses.

otherwise it was the former.

[MightyB]

TAKEN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ74TF51H-Q)

1234567

[MightyB]

or if you like a little more "kung" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKsequazoIc)in your "fu".

[MightyB]

and you all know that there was a time when we wanted to be as tough as this guy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHax2BNSI_U)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W_QFCQYac8

[bawang]

my kung fu is like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EQWcB1vXXg

before every fight, i stab a map to show strong

[David Jamieson]

map stabbing is a legit tech.
Because it does rearrange the map.

[Taixuquan99]

it must suck to live in a world where you hate gung fu.....:(

My point wasn't hate of kung fu at all, I don't associate kung fu, the methods, with endless and often pointless choreography.

For example, in the movie The Emporer and the Assassin, there's a scene where the characters are trying to convince Jing Ke to kill again so that he'll kill the Emperor. They give a guy a sword and give Jing Ke a sword, and the guy keeps attacking Jing Ke, but Jing Ke is just essentially defending himself and pushing the other guy over. It's kung fu, but it contributes more to the realism than the heavily choreographed stuff.

That said, I do occasionally like certain choreography, but it becomes not only excessive, but ultimately largely rip-offs of previous choreography, which is tiring.

I would also say that movies like Unleashed fall into that Watchmen area, where the choreography is not any more realistic than any other martial arts movie's, but merely has more blood. I don't dislike either movie, but I consider the choreography as unrealistic as, say, CTHD, where the choreography actually fits the theme and story better.

The Bourne movies are the same, but with Kali being the mode of dance.

The older movies were likewise limited, the effect, aside from death, was often avoided as well, so the newer is clearly a logical extension of the former, I suppose.

And I certainly understand that truly realistic violence makes for a disturbing impact, so that the movie, if the violence fits, might not be something that you watch more than once, along the lines of a Requiem For a Dream, but in movies with themes that are supposed to relate to the cost of what is happening, like Watchmen or the countless kung fu movies where violence is lectured against by the very person who is gonna carry out the blood bath, parts become unwatchable because of the difference.

Watchmen is especially a pet peeve, as one should feel a sick thrill from the fights in it, at best, and instead it's amusement park choreography.

That said, the overall quality of the kung fu choreographers is unquestionable, it's simply that subtlety is utterly missing, which makes every blow meaningless. Only the last of three hundred blows matters in that style of choreography, and only because the story has to tell us it matters. When a guy gets stomped in the head, you see it, and you have to be told this is bad, someone is not using the medium well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that the shift to the type of fighting we see in the Bourne series, in Taken and most recently in Hanna, is because it is easier to learn, looks more "brutal and raw" and because you can make almost any actor pull it off.
The more "brutal and raw" is why I like it.
That said, the beauty of the choreogrpahy of a Donnie Yen movie like "SMP" or "Flashpoint" or even the IP man movies, is simply brilliant.

[Taixuquan99]

I think that the shift to the type of fighting we see in the Bourne series, in Taken and most recently in Hanna, is because it is easier to learn, looks more "brutal and raw" and because you can make almost any actor pull it off.
The more "brutal and raw" is why I like it.
That said, the beauty of the choreogrpahy of a Donnie Yen movie like "SMP" or "Flashpoint" or even the IP man movies, is simply brilliant.

I'm with you on the Donnie Yen stuff.

As for the Bourne stuff, I think of it as every bit as choreographed and unrealistic, merely shorter and with more blood/broken bones, etc. You always see exactly what happens, there's never a moment where you think it was just an exchange, and then you realize "that dude's ****ed up". I think they lose out on a lot of impact for the fight scene that way. They give everything away, thinking the goal is filming the technique, when they should make the fight central. Two guys going at it for ten minutes without injury or one guy killing people one after another cleanly and crisply for ten minutes is the same level of unrealistic. I don't dislike it, but tire of it being the only option, two versions of the same thing. Especially when the movie itself screams for something else.

For example, Ip Man screamed for more realism. Fantastic choreography, decent story, but thematically, totally at odds with the entire film's message.

[Drake]

I don't go to movies to learn martial arts. You should see a theater full of soldiers watching a war movie. Biggest group of loud and obnoxious critics you'll ever see.

Hurt Locker was like a comedic commentary by all watching. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm with you on the Donnie Yen stuff.

As for the Bourne stuff, I think of it as every bit as choreographed and unrealistic, merely shorter and with more blood/broken bones, etc. You always see exactly what happens, there's never a moment where you think it was just an exchange, and then you realize "that dude's ****ed up". I think they lose out on a lot of impact for the fight scene that way. They give everything away, thinking the goal is filming the technique, when they should make the fight central. Two guys going at it for ten minutes without injury or one guy killing people one after another cleanly and crisply for ten minutes is the same level of unrealistic. I don't dislike it, but tire of it being the only option, two versions of the same thing. Especially when the movie itself screams for something else.

For example, Ip Man screamed for more realism. Fantastic choreography, decent story, but thematically, totally at odds with the entire film's message.

What?
IP was SO REAL !
WC was developed for the sole purpose of beating a dozen Karate BB !
Stop with your anti-WC lies !!!

[Taixuquan99]

I don't go to movies to learn martial arts.

I'm not advocating that, it's just annoying when the movie's theme and the movies fight choreography are ridiculously at odds. It detracts from a good movie. A lame movie, that's another thing.


You should see a theater full of soldiers watching a war movie. Biggest group of loud and obnoxious critics you'll ever see.

Hurt Locker was like a comedic commentary by all watching. :D

That's hilarious!

[Taixuquan99]

What?
IP was SO REAL !
WC was developed for the sole purpose of beating a dozen Karate BB !
Stop with your anti-WC lies !!!

Please don't choke me out with your wing chun ground fighting!

[MightyB]

don't judge Me! But I like this movie. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFBjzMnxqE8)

[Jimbo]

It's all choreography if it's in a movie, whether it looks more realistic or not. If you're talking about movie fights that look more like real fights, I'd have to say some of the beat-downs in Goodfellas and Casino (great films, btw) look pretty real.

I like all kinds of movie fights, but not so much if there's too much flying around/wirework. Not because it isn't realistic, but because to me, too much of that messes up the scene(s). It's all entertainment to me. I like to see a level of difficulty, creativity, 'selling' the scene, etc.

It's the same with onscreen car chases, forensic dramas, gunfights, and even women's 'chickflicks', etc. If they looked like the way things really happen, most people would say, "That was boring. Wtf!?"

But I think I understand what Taixuquan means by a movie's central theme and fighting showing a type of double-standard.. However, I've seen one recent movie which a movie critic seemed very contemptuous of: Shaolin (2011). The whole idea was the main character's change of character through the course of the film, which he does, even at the end. Yet the film critic said that a film that talks of spirituality is hypocritical by showing martial arts fighting of ANY kind. The whole idea of the 'warrior monk' seemed incomprehensible in his view. Which, when you think of it, seems rather myopic. I see an even greater hypocrisy in movies about the Crusades.

I loved the Ip Man films, but thought it was odd that Ip Man could singlehandedly beat at least 10 karate BB's and suffer only skinned knuckles; and almost singlehandedly beat about 20(?) guys rushing at him with knives and barely break a sweat. Yet he could barely survive beating one heavyweight boxer. Even the baddest boxer on the planet is not the equal of ten highly-trained BB's, or even worse, a large angry gang armed with knives, coming at you aggressively all at once. Once again, it's only a movie, but they made the boxer almost into the Hulk. The movie seemed to be trying to promote CMA, and WC in particular, but IMO it actually did the opposite. Even though the boxer eventually lost, he and his method came across as generally superior.

[Hardwork108]

Totally realistic fight scene. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDcJOzu7TaA&feature=related

[Warning, lots of blood)!]




.

[Cataphract]

The Hunted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCUmom8u1Hg) had some good choreography imo. More on the realistic side.

[Jimbo]

IMO, this film contains some of the best knife fight choreography in any movie, and (also IMO) better than the knife fighting in any American-made movie. But in the end, it's all just choreography. A big difference in The Man From Nowhere is the sense of danger, and the emotional content and motivation that drives the protagonist to fight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XRdbMiG4Y8&sns=em

[mickey]

Greetings,

Thank you for posting that, Jimbo.

That was the first choreography that I enjoyed in a good while. What really caught my eye was the continuing influence of the camera work established by Sonny Chiba and his action team back in the 70's. Even the approach to choreography reminds me of the first 2 Streetfighter movies. Was that scene an homage to him?

mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

Thank you for posting that, Jimbo.

That was the first choreography that I enjoyed in a good while. What really caught my eye was the continuing influence of the camera work established by Sonny Chiba and his action team back in the 70's. Even the approach to choreography reminds me of the first 2 Streetfighter movies. Was that scene an homage to him?

mickey

Good question, mickey.

I actually believe it was more inspired by the Jason Bourne movies. The Bourne movies seemed to be popular in S. Korea, as they've made some movies, like The Suspect, that were virtually direct Bourne copies, story-wise and action-wise. As to what inspired the Bourne-style cinematography during the fights, maybe they just used the often shaky camerawork as a cinematic device to give the fights a more frenetic feel. IMO, The Man From Nowhere is different from, and a better movie than any of the Bourne movies. But I'm really not sure if the choreo/camerawork was inspired by Chiba's Japan Action Club or not, either here or in the Bourne movies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, this film contains some of the best knife fight choreography in any movie, and (also IMO) better than the knife fighting in any American-made movie. But in the end, it's all just choreography. A big difference in The Man From Nowhere is the sense of danger, and the emotional content and motivation that drives the protagonist to fight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XRdbMiG4Y8&sns=em

Not bad at all.
Personally, knowing how knife fights actually work, I find most "final knife fights' overly drawn out and ceremonial.
It stems from the "kung fu" view that the final fight between two masters must be long and drawn out.
Samurai movies were/are, paradoxically, the opposite.
The final fight between the two masters tends to be like a nuclear explosion, going from pure stillness and potentiality to full on massive release of energy !

[Jimbo]

Not bad at all.
Personally, knowing how knife fights actually work, I find most "final knife fights' overly drawn out and ceremonial.
It stems from the "kung fu" view that the final fight between two masters must be long and drawn out.
Samurai movies were/are, paradoxically, the opposite.
The final fight between the two masters tends to be like a nuclear explosion, going from pure stillness and potentiality to full on massive release of energy !

Agreed.

Besides the 'Kung Fu' view, IMO the long, drawn-out fights in KF and Chinese movies in general might also have another cultural influence; Beijing opera, where the battle scenes are highly stylized and intricate. Very different to Japanese martial culture. Only some fairly recent Japanese MA movies have incorporated longer and more stylized fight scenes, clearly influenced by Chinese (and Thai) MA films.

Here is a pretty realistic fight scene from the excellent Korean suspense film I Saw the Devil. In the scene, a fake cab driver and his 'passenger' target the wrong 'victim', a brutal serial killer. This knife scene is believable as movie scenes go, because it's quite common in real life for knifers to require many swarming stabs to stop/finish off their 'opponents'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJAUOJDM88o&sns=em