Why Doesn't TCMA Include Ground Fighting and What are you going to do about it?

[MightyB]

How have you or your school addressed the current BJJ / MMA movement that's prevalent in today's martial arts?

[ShaolinDan]

My School

As I've stated elsewhere, one of the teachers in my family has been studying No Gi JJ and BJJ for some 15 years--he offers regular ground training at his school, and offers seminars at our school whenever he's in the area.

Also (perhaps because his first MA was Judo, perhaps just 'cause he really knows his stuff), my teacher is able to show how to adapt various techniques for the ground. Also we frequently train from the clinch, and have no issues with adopting methods from other styles under appropriate circumstances (the boxer's close guard, for example).

Myself

I've done some of the ground seminars mentioned above. Also looking into doing a little cross-training at the local MMA club...am currently waiting for a response from them to see if I can wear sneakers when I train (have plantar fasciitis, need my arch support :o )--so whether I'm able to do more for myself at the moment depends on their answer.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

How have you or your school addressed the current BJJ / MMA movement that's prevalent in today's martial arts?

I found an awesome Wing Chun grappling class and took it online!! True story.:D

Myself and the other instructor who teaches with me did what everyone else did, went out and cross trained in grappling systems and filled in the gaps. I believe Shuai Jiao and wrestling to be an integral part of any Kung Fu, and most systems should have these.

The best advice, use your throws, takedowns, and sweeps and either cross train or roll with wrestlers, judokas, BJJers, and fill in the gaps and improve your game. Learning positioning, bridging, shrimping, and submissions and counters is also important, if for no other reason than to be able to stand back up.

Last night at our class this is what we worked on, positioning, bridging, shrimping, and standing back up. If anything with the current focus on grappling in the marital arts practioners should look to be able to counter these movements, which only comes from learning them yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have this simple suggestion:

Go to your local judo or BJJ gym ( or MMA if you have one) and speak with the head instructor and tell him you would like for someone to come to your school on a reg basis to introduce your students to ground work.
They will be very accomodating.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Natalia-Inoue-1.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I have this simple suggestion:

Go to your local judo or BJJ gym ( or MMA if you have one) and speak with the head instructor and tell him you would like for someone to come to your school on a reg basis to introduce your students to ground work.
They will be very accomodating.

Also, most BJJ instructors would be happy to come to your gym/kwoon and give a seminar on basic ground work, usually at a nominal fee. This at least gets them started in the basics that you can work on with them as well as have the BJJ instrutor continue this somewhat regulary for advancement.

[Taixuquan99]

Also, most BJJ instructors would be happy to come to your gym/kwoon and give a seminar on basic ground work, usually at a nominal fee. This at least gets them started in the basics that you can work on with them as well as have the BJJ instrutor continue this somewhat regulary for advancement.

This is how I plan to further my own experience, given my limited time. One of my students studied for a couple years with a local bjj black belt who I've heard is a really good guy, so the plan is to periodically do this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is how I plan to further my own experience, given my limited time. One of my students studied for a couple years with a local bjj black belt who I've heard is a really good guy, so the plan is to periodically do this.

Outside of the web, you will find that BJJ players ( and BB in particular) are very easy going and respectful and they just love to get exposed to other MA.
Even if it's only once a week, it will be an amazing experience.
The first time I rolled with a BB it felt like grappling with an empty jacket and then an anaconda ! LOL !
You truly have no idea the skill level of a trained grappler until you roll with one.

[Taixuquan99]

Outside of the web, you will find that BJJ players ( and BB in particular) are very easy going and respectful and they just love to get exposed to other MA.

I laughed heartily at the outside of the web comment. I have not actually met a judo or bjj player of any experience that I didn't like, outside of the web. I've met nice wrestlers and jerks, but I've also met more wrestlers than bjj guys. I've always known some judo guys, never had any problem with them.


Even if it's only once a week, it will be an amazing experience.

I've rolled some with a few mid level guys, one of them is a very competitive dude in amazing shape. I can hold him off for a while on the ground, sometimes I can shake him and get up, but that's about it. But I do make him work. Having done that with him, I can respect that rolling with a high level guy must be harrying, in a good way.


The first time I rolled with a BB it felt like grappling with an empty jacket and then an anaconda !

TMI!:D


You truly have no idea the skill level of a trained grappler until you roll with one.

I like anyone who really likes working their martial arts more working than their attitude. They are most of the skilled ones. They might smack talk in competition, but they seem to have the attitude that "I have to do this crap for competition, I'm not gonna waste training time hoping you'll give me less challenge because I messed with your head."

[EarthDragon]

In my school we have always crossed trained, YOU MUST, but we have been doing it way before BJJ was a fad or even heard of outside Brazil,
We go back to UFC 6 and 7 and my kung fu student won on the ground.

I teachg my studetns reality, and said when you fight expect to fall, then lets learn how to fight form this position, not IF it happnes but WHEN. Unless you KO your going tot he ground gravity has no bias.

If your school is geared towards forms, tourneys point fighting and conditioning and not fighting then this section can be skipped :D

For those who think they should not train in all aspects of fighting are just ignorant. conditioning, wind, strength, internal, external, mental, phsyical, spititual, kinitics, jing, qigong, nei gong, anatomy, the list goes on and on

[MightyB]

I like my kung fu, but I also enjoy Judo and working out with BJJ players and MMA guys.

In the heat of whatever I'm doing - I enjoy it. So ground, throwing, striking... really it's all the same. You just keep working on it and hopefully keep enjoying it. Sometimes you have "aha" moments like I had the other night with Hane Goshi. My only limitation is my wallet... and a finite amount of free time to work out.

[mickey]

Greetings,

This is, by far, the healthiest thread I have seen on the subject matter. Way to go!!


mickey

[Eric Olson]

I'm going to crawl under the table and curl up in the fetal position.

[ShaolinDan]

...am currently waiting for a response from them to see if I can wear sneakers when I train (have plantar fasciitis, need my arch support :o )--so whether I'm able to do more for myself at the moment depends on their answer.

Well, I'll have to get a pair of wrestling shoes, but it sounds like I can do it. Guess I'll get a firsthand look at the view from the other side. :p

[maxattck]

I have otomix wrestling shoes, check them out real light weight. Oddly enough I use them when I do bag work, they have never seen the mats

[ginosifu]

When I first started looking for martial art schools, my only thought was to become like that TV character from the show "Kung Fu" with David Carridine. I had no idea about grappling in MA other than the wrestling I had been doing.

I did Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kun Tao. The Kun Tao was the closest thing to grappling, but it just was not my bag. The others were only stand up styles. When I met my current teacher the first thing I noticed is that we were doing SC right off the bat.

Northern Shaolin and Hung Gar both have some ground work but they definately are different looking the BJJ and MMA ground fighting. They are also not quite as extensive as them also. Besides the ground work they have a grappling style called Chin Na (Kum Na in Cantonese). Northern Shaolin has an extensive Chin Na program which combined with it's ground work can be enough for the average person looking for self defense.

With the skills I have accumulated over the years I have no reason to go out and pick up any BJJ or MMA ground work. What I do now:

I start kids off by teaching them High school wrestling and Shuai Chiao. As their skill level picks up and their level of control gets good, then I start them on sparring and San Shou (all during this they are learning basic kung fu skills like punching and kicking and stance work etc etc.).

Teens and Young adults learn Kung Fu basics and Shaui Chiao. They have the option to go and do High School wrestling. As their skill increases they start Sparring and San Shou.

Usually all the adults stick to kung fu basics and self defense. Not every adult likes to roll around. Females and older folk are not likely to join my Shuai Chiao, San Shou or Wrestling classes.

ginosifu

[Lebaufist]

Does it really have to be an either/or proposition? Neither side does the same job in the same way. I wouldn't go to a bjj school for their striking tips. And vice verse.

My kung fu covers my strikes, kicks, locks, throws, mobility and range. That's what most kung fu wants to do, to hold the line and get the dominant position. But if my line is breached and I find myself on the other end, I'll try to get out as well I can, and it won't be a CMA inspired technique necessarily. There could be nuances in my choices of movement due to CMA. Perhaps paradigms not explored or accepted by the status quo. But my grappling will never be "pure" . I can't help but hit. Its in my DNA. For me, there are too many chances for a strike for me to ignore.

[PalmStriker]

Does it really have to be an either/or proposition? Neither side does the same job in the same way. I wouldn't go to a bjj school for their striking tips. And vice verse.

My kung fu covers my strikes, kicks, locks, throws, mobility and range. That's what most kung fu wants to do, to hold the line and get the dominant position. But if my line is breached and I find myself on the other end, I'll try to get out as well I can, and it won't be a CMA inspired technique necessarily. There could be nuances in my choices of movement due to CMA. Perhaps paradigms not explored or accepted by the status quo. But my grappling will never be "pure" . I can't help but hit. Its in my DNA. For me, there are too many chances for a strike for me to ignore. Have to agree. If you're not a grappler/wrestler you are not going to be prone to accommodating your enemy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvFXVWT4NY&feature=related

[Ben Gash]

I started out doing Nogi BJJ, but I've been doing CSW for a while now. Went to the camp in OC this year, train with Erik when he's over here etc.
One thing I've found though is that if you have a decent knowledge of grappling, you can see it in the TCMA. People talk a lot about Ditang, but on both sides of the fence they're often misguided. If you view it through an understanding of open guard work though it all makes a lot of sense. CLF has 3 stances "pressing down horse" " kneeling down horse" and "leg scissors" which are kind of odd as standup stances, but do in fact cover all the common top positions on the ground!

[mickey]

Greetings,

The warrior approach to any newly established method is to fully assess it. And that may include studying it. That way you learn its strengths and weaknesses. This is how the warrior maintains his edge. This is how the teacher maintains the fighting viability of the style he teaches; and it is his RESPONSIBILITY to do so. It is pretty pathetic to say you have all you need if you do not know how to pull it together to keep from getting choked out. The Chinese martial arts were/are like that. In China they are studying Tae Kwon Do, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and they are not breaking with TRADITION by doing so.

I remember going to a martial arts supply store in NYC on the Deuce and the guy in the store was really excited by the new interest in grappling. I learned a lot just from that encounter about excelling in one's craft.

mickey

[mickey]

MORE,

In a post in another thread re grappling, I erred in citing cultural reasons as a reason why the grappling component was so absent in TCMA. I was wrong to write that. The techniques are there. You have to be able to see it. The active study of grappling helps highlight what was there all along.

mickey

[EarthDragon]

we must always remember that evloution IS life, what does not evolve dies.
This is the same for MA.
Its OK not to agree and be simple and basic minded...... heck people dont believe Darwin adn still call it a theory LOL, but whether you agree or not does not change the dynamics facts and natural progession of eveloment in everthing , so you either except it and include it in your learnings, teachings and paths or become well....a dinosaur

[Lebaufist]

The basic underlying argument is, Do you have to fight BJJ the BJJ way. I think it would do many a world of good to at least look in on what is being done and how you would at least TRY to gum up their entry or find a quick exit. Its being done in MMA all the time. Sure, many of those are experienced grapplers. But where is this other paradigm coming from? Not from grappling.

[Robinhood]

If you can't keep your balance and stay on your feet, then you need to learn to roll around on the ground, still it is more of a sport than a MA.

[Ben Gash]

If you can't keep your balance and stay on your feet, then you need to learn to roll around on the ground, still it is more of a sport than a MA.

I don't know where to begin with the wrongness of this.

[Frost]

The basic underlying argument is, Do you have to fight BJJ the BJJ way. I think it would do many a world of good to at least look in on what is being done and how you would at least TRY to gum up their entry or find a quick exit. Its being done in MMA all the time. Sure, many of those are experienced grapplers. But where is this other paradigm coming from? Not from grappling.

Its coming from strikers who understand that to use their game effectively they need to become very good at grappling but then adapt it to their goals, they might not be looking for submissions, holding position etc but you can be sure that they have extensive experience in these things, they have to in order to be able to nullify what’s being done to them

You might not have to fight BJJ the BJJ way, but if you don’t understand and have experience at what they do, you will get hurt if you try to stop them using strikes and a limited ground knowledge

In MMA you will find no one at a decent level who does not train straight submission grappling only at least a few days a week, be it BJJ or no gi BJJ as well as straight wrestling, the reason for this is obvious and should also explain why the approach you are talking about wont work

You can hit all you want, if you don’t train enough pure grappling to have the escapes down and the positions down you are going to get hurt when the BJJ guys decides to also hit back

[Phil Redmond]

Does Mantis have ground fighting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=bBJUcc8QCPk

[EarthDragon]

LOL Phil, apparently yes and by the looks of it he is the master. thanks fo the laugh so early in the day

[Lebaufist]

Its coming from strikers who understand that to use their game effectively they need to become very good at grappling I don't agree at all. You don't have to be a BJJ BB to learn to stop a take down. Grappling hasn't cornered the market in mobility.

[Frost]

I don't agree at all. You don't have to be a BJJ BB to learn to stop a take down. Grappling hasn't cornered the market in mobility.

Nope but you do have to be a very good wrestler to stop the takedown, and have a ground game just in case you get taken down, by good I mean have trained wrestling heavily in your style and competed in grappling events, otherwise even good strikers will get destroyed against good grapplers, witness paul daley and dan hardy

By the way Best strikers in MMA,
Anderson silva, BJJ blackbelt, jose aldo, also BJJ blackbelt, machida BJJ blackbelt, shogun I could keep going but you get my point

[goju]

it takes a very high level of wrestling skill to be able to just stop a shoot. I remember sparring a local amateur mma fighter at trevor whittman's gym. We were working striking with takedowns in the session he was around 5 foot 6 or seven at a 156 pounds and im six foot two and was 210 at the time.

he had a backround in wrestling. I only stuffed one of the little *******s shoots.:(

[Lebaufist]

So what about all the people who aren't BB? They just get taken down. No sorry this is a fallacy. Superman doesn't exists and no style will make you one. Its not rocket science.

[Lebaufist]

it takes a very high level of wrestling skill to be able to just stop a shoot. I remember sparring a local amateur mma fighter at trevor whittman's gym. We were working striking with takedowns in the session he was around 5 foot 6 or seven at a 156 pounds and im six foot two and was 210 at the time.

he had a backround in wrestling. I only stuffed one of the little *******s shoots.:(
Isn't that more a reflection of your inability?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isn't that more a reflection of your inability?

With his reach AND size advantage the fact they he couldn't stop his shoot is an example of the OTHER guys skill in shooting in AND His lack of skill in stopping the shoot.

[Lebaufist]

Yes, but we have no gauge to measure the skill of either. I don't assume that the person I describe knows nothing. I don't assume that the person I describe doesn't have contact sense. But just enough. I don't assume that the person I describe hasn't fought at a lower range. I.E. kickboxers.

Its easy for the grappler in his equation to just keep going without a deterrent.

AFAIC, while on the feet, both are equal. Its who takes whom where after contact that matters to the grappler. I mean, really, its not magic, grapplers, mostly wrestlers(because BJJ takedowns are crap, IMHO) practice takedowns all the time. However, what you do against it doesn't necessarily have to follow wrestling rules. And sometime their own paradigms can be used against them.

Its only a matter of practice. If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown. I don't have to be a BB to do so.

Any technique needs its conditions met in order to work. Gum up a portion of those conditions and you are going to find that what you aimed for is lost.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, but we have no gauge to measure the skill of either. I don't assume that the person I describe knows nothing. I don't assume that the person I describe doesn't have contact sense. But just enough. I don't assume that the person I describe hasn't fought at a lower range. I.E. kickboxers.

Its easy for the grappler in his equation to just keep going without a deterrent.

AFAIC, while on the feet, both are equal. Its who takes whom where after contact that matters to the grappler. I mean, really, its not magic, grapplers, mostly wrestlers(because BJJ takedowns are crap, IMHO) practice takedowns all the time. However, what you do against it doesn't necessarily have to follow wrestling rules. And sometime their own paradigms can be used against them.

Its only a matter of practice. If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown. I don't have to be a BB to do so.

Any technique needs its conditions met in order to work. Gum up a portion of those conditions and you are going to find that what you aimed for is lost.

Well, if you wanna look at in a "scientific way":
The vast majority of evidence we have from over the last 20 years clearly demonstrates that IF a trained grappler wants to take someone down, they are going down.
That has been empirically proven over and over.
Then there is gravity and the often proven fact that it is far easier to go down than to stay up.

[goju]

The point too was that i wasn't trying to play his game.In fact the whole point of the sparring session was to get used to the mma environment of having to strike on the feet and defend the take down at the same time. I'm very good with my striking and used my jab and foot work to keep him away to some degree but it wasnt enough. A good wrestlers shoot is very fast and on top of that they are freaking strong and grind you down to the mat.. On top of that if you have a wrestler who has adapted himself well to mma he will uses strikes and feints to set up the shoot or wait for you to miss with your strike then go.


it's really something you have to experience first hand. it will change your perspective on alot of things.

[YouKnowWho]

If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown.
It's much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. How hard can that be? If you spend 3 years in single leg counters and your opponent spends 3 years in single leg, 3 years later, you single leg counter may make your opponent's single leg fail. The problem is even if your opponent cannot take you down with his single leg, you can't take him down with your single leg either. Is it better to develop offense skill that you may use someday than to develop defense skill that you may never use in your life time?

[Drake]

It's much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. How hard can that be?

Pretty **** hard, actually. If they are decent, and they want you on the ground, you are going to the ground. Like SR says, you are arguing against decades of hard evidence and solid proof.

It's like you don't want to accept this, and are willing to say anything if it means diluting it.

****, man, nobody is saying abandon TCMA. But without a ground game, you are asking for a terrible outcome. Instead you are saying things which have been proven to be inaccurate, and you are rehashing a discussion that has been put to bed already.

[Lebaufist]

Fellas, I'm in the process of moving, so forgive me if I suddenly don't answer your posts. I'll be back to this shortly.

[maxattck]

At the BJJ academy I train at we have a few college level wrestlers, I have been training there for almost 4 years, and I cant stop there shoots. Pretty much no one can. Against the rest of the guys I do fine, I can stuff my fair share. Its jsut they are at of differnt lvl, they simple out class me. So usally against them I make sure end up in a good place, ei guard, half guard ect. Cause I know I am going down

[Lucas]

for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.

[YouKnowWho]

Pretty **** hard, actually. If they are decent, and they want you on the ground, you are going to the ground. Like SR says, you are arguing against decades of hard evidence and solid proof.

It's like you don't want to accept this, and are willing to say anything if it means diluting it.

****, man, nobody is saying abandon TCMA. But without a ground game, you are asking for a terrible outcome. Instead you are saying things which have been proven to be inaccurate, and you are rehashing a discussion that has been put to bed already.

We had discussed the "double hands single leg" and it's counters many times in this forum before. Let's not go back there again.

As far as "defense is always easier than offense", here is a simple example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

Is it easier for you to attack that bear, or is it easier for you to wait for that bear to attack you? When you attack, you can only use your own force. You have nothing to work with. When your opponent is gone, you will meet the emptiness. When your oponent attacks you, you can borrow his force, and you have somthing to work with. Your force plus your opponent's force is always greater than your own force.

[YouKnowWho]

for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.

The Mongolian wrestling only has one round with no time limitation. Sometime a match can last for over an hour and nobody can take the other down.

[Lucas]

those must be some really well evened out wrestlers!!

[YouKnowWho]

those must be some really well evened out wrestlers!!
It's more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.

A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.

[Lebaufist]

It's more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.

A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.

Ok that takes care of one answer. break's over.....

[PalmStriker]

Well, if you wanna look at in a "scientific way":
The vast majority of evidence we have from over the last 20 years clearly demonstrates that IF a trained grappler wants to take someone down, they are going down.
That has been empirically proven over and over.
Then there is gravity and the often proven fact that it is far easier to go down than to stay up. Were these "fights to the death"? :confused:

[SwaiingDragon]

In Shuai Jiao we learn chi na - joint locking - it's the same standing or on the ground

[Frost]

So what about all the people who aren't BB? They just get taken down. No sorry this is a fallacy. Superman doesn't exists and no style will make you one. Its not rocket science.

name me one UFC guy at the mid level who is not either a collegiate level wrestler or a BJJ purple belt, no one said they had to be black belts, but without a decent level of ground work (purple at least) you are going to get hammered.

Can purples beat blackbelts in MMA? yes because striking changes the game, but without a game in the first place you are in trouble...i thought we learned this from ...oh i dont know...the last 20 years of the UFC?

[Frost]

It's much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. ?

if only it was that easy...........i agree with you for the most part defence is easier than offense, hence in MMA a purple belt level gy can defend a b lackbelts attacks, because all he is doing is using posture and escapes not looking to attack, but you still need a solid game to be able to do this

[Frost]

In Shuai Jiao we learn chi na - joint locking - it's the same standing or on the ground

no its not

[Frost]

It's more proper to compare 2 persons with the same skill level. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also has 2 arms and 2 legs. Trying to assume that you can take your opponent down whenever that you want to (or the other way around) is not realistic IMO.

A friend of mine had made public statement that if anybody could take him down even once (when he plays 100% defense), he would give that person a black belt. He had just had his 70 years old birthday not too long ago. So far nobody had ever received a black belt from him through that short cut yet.

did he make this chalange to the local college wrestling team?:rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

did he make this chalange to the local college wrestling team?:rolleyes:

One of my guys, a 250 lb formal Iranian wrestling champ (not sure the difference between Iranian wrestling and western wrestling), who can bench press 245 lb took the challenge and could not take him down. He only weight about 170 lb. That was more than 30 years ago. If kick and puch are allowed, the outcome could be different. I'm only taking about 100% wrestling here.

[MightyB]

I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that's false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience... and granted the highest BJJ'er I've competed against was a purple, but in my experience... BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them... I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don't have to newaza with them.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that's false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience... and granted the highest BJJ'er I've competed against was a purple, but in my experience... BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them... I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don't have to newaza with them.

Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!!:D BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.

[MightyB]

Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!!:D BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.

I guess where I was going is that maybe John and Gino aren't as off-base as people are trying to say when they say that they don't have to worry as much about the newaza. Because, with their vast SC experience, they would be very hard to take down. So much so that I don't think your average BJJer or MMAer would have much of a shot of getting them down if they didn't want to get taken down.

[goju]

Funny, I said the same thing on another thread and all the BJJ nutriders jumped all over it!!:D BJJ is the ground. I have also seen many BJJ players pull guard at the beginning of a match just to get the fight to the ground. Their ground game is the best, no doubt about it. But if you want to learn throws and takedowns as well as defending them train wrestling or Judo, you will be better off.

I dont know why this would even be argued against . It's so obvious from anyone whos trained strict bjj that their weakness is standing grappling and getting you to the mat.

[Frost]

I think you guys are worshipping some type of ideal that's false. My personal experience with BJJ is different than what a lot of people are imagining. Being a BB Judo player, maybe my perspective is skewed, but, in my experience... and granted the highest BJJ'er I've competed against was a purple, but in my experience... BJJ players pull guard pretty much all the time because they are scared to stand up against an experienced Judo player. And, unless I feel like playing with them... I step out of their attempts at pull guard. Meaning, that unless I feel like it, I don't have to newaza with them.

actually no one here has really mentioned BJJ in respect of takedowns, we said grapplers

I think everyone knows BJJ s*cks at takedowns compared to wrestling and Judo, but their takedowns are more than enough to deal with people who dont have standing grappling expereince and that if the fight hits the ground (which it probably will against a BJJ guy if all you know is striking) you are in trouble if you dont have solid ground skills

oh and they might be scared to stand and grapple with a judo bb, do you think they would be scared against someone only trained in striking?

[Frost]

I guess where I was going is that maybe John and Gino aren't as off-base as people are trying to say when they say that they don't have to worry as much about the newaza. Because, with their vast SC experience, they would be very hard to take down. So much so that I don't think your average BJJer or MMAer would have much of a shot of getting them down if they didn't want to get taken down.

average bjjer, maybe not although off the top of my head most i know also train BJJ, average MMAer, with a background in wrestling as you are normally bound to get in the states....might be best to be prepared

[MightyB]

average bjjer, maybe not although off the top of my head most i know also train BJJ, average MMAer, with a background in wrestling as you are normally bound to get in the states....might be best to be prepared

But the ones who are any good rarely if ever get into bar/street fights, and I've never seen a real good competitive martial artist actually start a fight outside of the ring. So who's that leave?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think it is fair to say that with the emergence of MMA as well as the rise of popularity in grappling arts there is a chance of going up against someone with training. That being said, it is also a silly notion to believe that every street fight scenirio (how many fights do you guys get into anyway:p) is going to be against a highly trained martial artist. One should always expect the unexpected, but the reality of it is it will probably be your average douchebag.

[MightyB]

I think it is fair to say that with the emergence of MMA as well as the rise of popularity in grappling arts there is a chance of going up against someone with training. That being said, it is also a silly notion to believe that every street fight scenirio (how many fights do you guys get into anyway:p) is going to be against a highly trained martial artist. One should always expect the unexpected, but the reality of it is it will probably be your average douchebag.

We get at least one a month - you know, that guy who wants to fight MMA that comes into your school that can recite every move ever used in every UFC. He's somewhat in shape and tells you how he grapples with his cousin or whatever and he's anxious to step onto the mat to show you how good he is.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

We get at least one a month - you know, that guy who wants to fight MMA that comes into your school that can recite every move ever used in every UFC. He's somewhat in shape and tells you how he grapples with his cousin or whatever and he's anxious to step onto the mat to show you how good he is.

Did he have this hat on??:D

http://rlv.zcache.com/i_wanna_be_a_cage_fighter_hat_customized-p148241950467769996z74s0_152.jpg

[Frost]

But the ones who are any good rarely if ever get into bar/street fights, and I've never seen a real good competitive martial artist actually start a fight outside of the ring. So who's that leave?

well since the question i was responding to was you dont have to grapple a BJJ guy, i dont know where the bar/street fight arguement comes from.............:confused:

[MightyB]

well since the question i was responding to was you dont have to grapple a BJJ guy, i dont know where the bar/street fight arguement comes from.............:confused:

Just trying to get a different perspective on TCMA Groundfighting. One that I think was being alluded to earlier which was that if they could stuff the takedown, then the groundfighting wouldn't be as relevant and therefore you could get by on a basic training groundfighting regimen. Gotta play devil's advocate once in a while. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

all three zones should be practiced equally. None of this "if you can stuff it" crap. You never know when you'll need to fight from your back or on your face in the dirt. People get blindsided all the time. Is your upstairs fighting going to save you from that? Unless you have eyes in the back of your head, (and none of the mystical crap), then you should learn the ground as you should learn the clinch and stand up.

ground is not this MMA rolling on the ground for the sport of it compendium. It's a zone that is taken like all other zones that you train. It teaches you to move, position, advantages, leverage, and how the ground scenario works. If you are lacking in that area and your "scared" of the wrestler take down then go out and learn it. That's the only way to be prepared for it.

[Chadderz]

I think it is fair to say that with the emergence of MMA as well as the rise of popularity in grappling arts there is a chance of going up against someone with training. That being said, it is also a silly notion to believe that every street fight scenirio (how many fights do you guys get into anyway:p) is going to be against a highly trained martial artist. One should always expect the unexpected, but the reality of it is it will probably be your average douchebag.
i just wanted to butt in and say that in America, the curriculum in high school involves wrestling, and that it's normally very good ^^

[Iron_Eagle_76]

i just wanted to butt in and say that in America, the curriculum in high school involves wrestling, and that it's normally very good ^^

Wrestling??? Wrestling doesn't count, it's not a martial art!!!:mad:

Haven't you been paying attention.:p

[ginosifu]

ground is not this MMA rolling on the ground for the sport of it compendium. It's a zone that is taken like all other zones that you train. It teaches you to move, position, advantages, leverage, and how the ground scenario works. If you are lacking in that area and your "scared" of the wrestler take down then go out and learn it. That's the only way to be prepared for it.

I agree with this statement. Everyone should train some type of ground work. I do not possess the same skills as a BJJ fighter, but I have enough to feel confident if taken down that I could handle myself.

How much ground work is enough? Do you need a Black Belt in BJJ or a couple of years workouts at a MMA gym? Is the Northern Shaolin ground fighting stuff I have enough? My training would probably be 40% stand up / 40% SC grappling / 20% ground work, is this enough?

ginosifu

[Eric Olson]

We get at least one a month - you know, that guy who wants to fight MMA that comes into your school that can recite every move ever used in every UFC. He's somewhat in shape and tells you how he grapples with his cousin or whatever and he's anxious to step onto the mat to show you how good he is.

Was his name Kip?

[Chadderz]

Wrestling??? Wrestling doesn't count, it's not a martial art!!!:mad:


Nope, it is a marital art. To prove a point one of the first times the term "martial art" was used was a 16th century textbook on (european) fencing.


I agree with this statement. Everyone should train some type of ground work. I do not possess the same skills as a BJJ fighter, but I have enough to feel confident if taken down that I could handle myself.

How much ground work is enough? Do you need a Black Belt in BJJ or a couple of years workouts at a MMA gym? Is the Northern Shaolin ground fighting stuff I have enough? My training would probably be 40% stand up / 40% SC grappling / 20% ground work, is this enough?

ginosifu

Good question, my suggestion would be to go up against a grappler and find out! I reckon if you can get to standing, then you're doing alright. (:

There is a Judoka in my BJJ class who is amazing on the ground, due to his Judo Newaza. So it's all relevent IMO.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[QUOTE=Chadderz;1143436]Nope, it is a marital art. To prove a point one of the first times the term "martial art" was used was a 16th century textbook on (european) fencing.


Sarcasm is lost on you my friend.;)

[Chadderz]

[QUOTE]


Sarcasm is lost on you my friend.;)

Man, sarcasm over the internet I am just no good with!

Sorry man (:

[Indrafist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&feature=related

There you go, everything you need to know :)

[Frost]

I agree with this statement. Everyone should train some type of ground work. I do not possess the same skills as a BJJ fighter, but I have enough to feel confident if taken down that I could handle myself.

How much ground work is enough? Do you need a Black Belt in BJJ or a couple of years workouts at a MMA gym? Is the Northern Shaolin ground fighting stuff I have enough? My training would probably be 40% stand up / 40% SC grappling / 20% ground work, is this enough?

ginosifu

Depends on what you are looking for

To compete in MMA wrestling and ground work should be the majority of your training, especially at lower levels about 70%, at higher levels it should be 50-60% (the bigger cage, allowing headshots on the ground and elbows etc changes the game a bit)

If you are looking to defend yourself on the street a year or so at a good grappling school would be enough with some rolling time in your normal class afterwards

If you are a good stand up grappler and train that a lot, then the time you spend on the ground should be less because you are less likely to end up there

In all honestly a blue belt in BJJ, which takes a year to two of hard training, would be enough to destroy most people on the ground

[bawang]

i tell people i train kickboxing. no one ever bothered me about groundfighting.

[David Jamieson]

i tell people i train kickboxing. no one ever bothered me about groundfighting.

Here's the thing, Kung Fu tends to be in the realm of esoterica often enough that people will say "you don't know the real -x-". This in turn creates an artificial air of superiority and nobody likes to be told they are stupid by a construct that is 100% artificial.
That is the reason that Kung Fu gets ridiculed so much and that is the only reason.

People who have never demonstrated anything significant at all get smug about what and who they train with as opposed to trying to really understand the art form for what it is.

As time passes, I think more people are looking at their Kung Fu practice realistically and as far as the martial art aspect goes, are removing as much of the cryptic stuff as possible to make it clear what is what. This is leading to other discoveries about these arts too. Some positive, some negative.

Change is the constant here though, so it's good.

I tell people I'm working on my destiny as a power ranger, they also don't bug me about wrestling. lol

[bawang]

that was my whole point man. i just say more with less. i smrat

[Indrafist]

Here's the thing, Kung Fu tends to be in the realm of esoterica often enough that people will say "you don't know the real -x-". This in turn creates an artificial air of superiority and nobody likes to be told they are stupid by a construct that is 100% artificial.
That is the reason that Kung Fu gets ridiculed so much and that is the only reason.

People who have never demonstrated anything significant at all get smug about what and who they train with as opposed to trying to really understand the art form for what it is.

As time passes, I think more people are looking at their Kung Fu practice realistically and as far as the martial art aspect goes, are removing as much of the cryptic stuff as possible to make it clear what is what. This is leading to other discoveries about these arts too. Some positive, some negative.

Change is the constant here though, so it's good.

I tell people I'm working on my destiny as a power ranger, they also don't bug me about wrestling. lol

Nicely said. Shame we don't have an historical perspective on our own times. Decades from now the results of the changes ocurring today, will be known, and no doubt, argued about in the light of what will then, be new. Today's changes will become tomorrow's TCMA.

[Jimbo]

Here's the thing, Kung Fu tends to be in the realm of esoterica often enough that people will say "you don't know the real -x-". This in turn creates an artificial air of superiority and nobody likes to be told they are stupid by a construct that is 100% artificial.
That is the reason that Kung Fu gets ridiculed so much and that is the only reason.

People who have never demonstrated anything significant at all get smug about what and who they train with as opposed to trying to really understand the art form for what it is.

As time passes, I think more people are looking at their Kung Fu practice realistically and as far as the martial art aspect goes, are removing as much of the cryptic stuff as possible to make it clear what is what. This is leading to other discoveries about these arts too. Some positive, some negative.

Change is the constant here though, so it's good.

I tell people I'm working on my destiny as a power ranger, they also don't bug me about wrestling. lol


+1.

But I do feel this happens in cycles, when a general trend of smugness has set in to many practitioners (in CMA and some other types of arts, too). It's definitely not the first time period in history this has occurred. Then comes another period of, "We must rediscover what really works about our systems at this time, streamline, and open up/cross-train what we don't currently have." It may happen again at some point in the future, as well.