Gary Lam Challenge vid???

[Subitai]

Apologies if the Chunners have already discussed this.

I was just browsing along and found this:

Gary Lam Challenged, "Switzerland Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtnVykMlG8&feature=related

Of course Chi Sao is not fighting but I think that in the initial moves...GL got caught off guard probablly because he was just too comfortable and not expecting an attack.

Everyone's human, perhaps GL could have taken it to the guy after the initial contact but I think he played it cool enough.

It was his demo or speech...if he felt he could shake hands on it, then he must not have been that pi$$ed at all.

Go figure, "O"

[lance]

Apologies if the Chunners have already discussed this.

I was just browsing along and found this:

Gary Lam Challenged, "Switzerland Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtnVykMlG8&feature=related

Of course Chi Sao is not fighting but I think that in the initial moves...GL got caught off guard probablly because he was just too comfortable and not expecting an attack.

Everyone's human, perhaps GL could have taken it to the guy after the initial contact but I think he played it cool enough.

It was his demo or speech...if he felt he could shake hands on it, then he must not have been that pi$$ed at all.

Go figure, "O"

! Yeah ! He did get caught off guard , but really showed the guy not to play around with him at a seminar . Atleast Sifu Lam was nice about it by shaking hands . Subitai , thanks for sharing this video with us and posting it . Any wiseass
person would want to get a cheap shot at a sifu , without knowing how the sifu himself would play around with those wise ass people . This is the first time I saw this video anyway .

[guy b.]

Gary Lam looked awful here.

He was in a difficult situation in that the guy wasn't playing completely by the wing chun rules (i.e. disengaging and protecting face), but I do not think Gary Lam would have handled it smoothly if he had chosen to step it up even more. The guy was too fast and fit for Lam to dominate physically and too non-compliant to dominate via the rules. If you look closely you can also see the challenger de-escalating a bit when Lam gets angry, perhaps to help him save face a bit. Horrible situation for Lam but it shows how much these demos of skill rely on playing by a fixed rule set, being compliant, and helping the main guy look good.

I think Lam should have disengaged and sent the guy to sit down or cracked a joke because once he stepped it up a notch he had to look really good, and he didn't. He looked awful

[guy b.]

compare and contrast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFHtoKWdOo&feature=player_embedded#!

This small outbreak of reality is truly awful for Gary Lam and a terrible realisation for wing chun in general.

[guy b.]

Does anyone have a clip of the later exchange between Gary Lam and Vladan Djordjevic?

There is a significant difference between the account of the exchange posted by Lam on facebook and by the Miko kungfu people (as you would expect). Apparently it was filmed so there must be a clip lurking out there somewhere.

Posting it would help clear up this mess.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/official-gary-lam-wing-chun-headquarters/clarification-of-the-recent-incident-in-switzerland/284513571568228?ref=nf

http://www.miko-kungfu.ch/2011/10/explanations-concerning-gary-lam.html

[Phil Redmond]

This whole debacle is a good example of why other martial artists laugh at WC. :(

[Vajramusti]

This whole debacle is a good example of why other martial artists laugh at WC. :(
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Much ado about nothing. The reactions are disproportionate. What's the point in trying to pull a fast one at a seminar? You go to a seminar to learn unless the presenter is clearly inviting a challenge.If you dont like the subject matter of a seminar or a presenter-best not to go.

Gary Lam is a good wing chun practitioner/ teacher- and assited in teaching for Won Shon Leung.
i was surprised on this thread a supposedly WSL/PB student making fun of gary lam (I have never met him). Apparently the PB student's post was later removed.
Gary Lam handled the challenge fine- he does not have to show an exact WC?VT technique- he took control of the situation.There are always legal limits and consequences depending on the jurisdiction.

It does not matter who laughs at what. An-Actual fight is something else-this was just an attempt to show off at a seminar.

[guy b.]

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Much ado about nothing. The reactions are disproportionate. What's the point in trying to pull a fast one at a seminar? You go to a seminar to learn unless the presenter is clearly inviting a challenge.If you dont like the subject matter of a seminar or a presenter-best not to go.

Gary Lam is a good wing chun practitioner/ teacher- and assited in teaching for Won Shon Leung.

What's the point in "learning" from someone that isn't any good at what he teaches? The thing about wing chun is that it holds chi sau as the gold standard of training and testing. If it didn't do so then Gary Lam would not have been offended by the guy from the audience touching him (quite gently) duing chi sau.

Since this is the case Gary Lam had better be **** good at chi sau if he accepts random guys from the audience to chi sau with him. The fact is that he appeared rather mediocre here.

The exchange also highlighted rather starkly what wing chun is not: fighting. This is extremely bad for wing chun in general. I don't think people are realising the magnitude of this. It is as if a rank beginner showed up at the seminar of one of the most celebrated living bjj blackbelts and gave him real trouble on the ground. That would mean one of two things: either the teacher is a fraud or the system is a fraud. Both are awful. Which is it here?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gary was being nice.
A certain points you can see that He is holding HIMSELF back from following through.
The other guy got lucky.
Of course Gary had size and skill on his size.
Still, he showed a great deal of control and for those that have seen Gary go HARD, that was him going half force at best.

[YouKnowWho]

Gary was being nice.
IMO, he shouldn't. To be nice to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. The best way (may be the only way) to prevent a future challenge like this is to build up your bad reputation. Anybody who challlenges you will receive serious body injury. When the words of mouth start to spread around, "Don't mess with this guy. He enjoys hurting people". You problem then will be solved once for all.

When I was young, there was a skinny guy that nobody wants to mess with. People said that if you messed with him, not only he would kill you, he would kill every single members of your family, include dog and cat. That's "bad reputation".

In the old time, people always took responsibility for their own challenge and the law would never be involved. For example, if you were killed with SC jacket, your family could not sue your opponent. If you have courage to put on your SC jacket on, your life is on your own hands. Such "bad reputation" was easy to build in the old time. Not sure how easy it is to build today.

Today, if you beat me with:

- hand, I'll come back with knife.
- knife, I'll come back with gun.
- gun, I'll sue you.

The TCMA honor and diginity are all gone. :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, he shouldn't. To be nice to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. The best way (may be the only way) to prevent a future challenge like this is to build up your bad reputation. Anybody who challlenges you will receive serious body injury. When the words of mouth start to spread around, "Don't mess with this guy. He enjoys hurting people". You problem then will be solved once for all.

When I was young, there was a skinny guy that nobody wants to mess with. People said that if you messed with him, not only he would kill you, he would kill every single members of your family, include dog and cat. That's "bad reputation".

I don't think he was challenged to a fight dude, just a chi sao demo.
I've seen far more violent push hands, LOL !

[Jake104]

I don't think he was challenged to a fight dude, just a chi sao demo.
I've seen far more violent push hands, LOL !

Exactly! Just a chicken sh$t attempt at trying to make Gary look bad. If it was a challenge then why be a pu$$y about it by pretending to be there to learn. And yeah this is exactly why Wing Chun is laugh at. The fact that people are making a big deal out of it makes me laugh.

[YouKnowWho]

Both single and double chi sao are pre-defined training patterns. How can you challenge someone in chi sao? Can you challenge someone to see who can stand in horse stance longer than the other?

Someone once made a comment as, "Taiji push hand is just like a diaper". I asked him, "What do you mean by that?" He then told me the following joke.

After a baby was born, his father died. The baby was raised by his grandfather. The grandfather put diaper on that baby. Soon the grandfather died too. The baby grew up without father or grandfather. Since nobody ever told that baby that diaper was only good for him when he was a baby, After that baby grew up, he had his diaper on him for the rest of his life.

Even if it's just a joke. There is some truth in it.

[Jansingsang]

IMO, he shouldn't. To be nice to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. The best way (may be the only way) to prevent a future challenge like this is to build up your bad reputation. Anybody who challlenges you will receive serious body injury. When the words of mouth start to spread around, "Don't mess with this guy. He enjoys hurting people". You problem then will be solved once for all.

When I was young, there was a skinny guy that nobody wants to mess with. People said that if you messed with him, not only he would kill you, he would kill every single members of your family, include dog and cat. That's "bad reputation".

I disagree here as Vingtsun is a martial Skill Prove it ! And do it with Class not being off balance chasing hands reaching etc .Gary looked Pants man:D And no one wants to admit it GH said What ever and got Served a under the belt foul ,for saying his opinion:(

Ipman when challenged by Wsl handled him with ease and control , high level Skill he didn't have to Crack heads bones or what ever for the young . Shun leung to realise he found his Sifu.

Point is Theres a Saying in Vingtsun Kung fu "Don't speak of who is senior or junior. The one who attains the skill first is the senior Iow Dont become a lazy Fat cat man You'll will get Merked :eek::D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Both single and double chi sao are pre-defined training patterns. How can you challenge someone in chi sao? Can you challenge someone to see who can stand in horse stance longer?

Same way you challenge someone to push hands.

[YouKnowWho]

Same way you challenge someone to push hands.

It's not clear how to win in Taiji PH. If you push me back but if I'm still standing on my feet, I will not say that you have just defeated me. If my hand grab on your arm, since our bodies are connected as one unit, there is no way that you can push me back without me to pull you in with me. If you pushing becomes my pulling, I don't see any win or lose there.

It's also not clear how to win in chi sao too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not clear how to win in Taiji PH. If you push me back but if I'm still standing on my feet, I will not say that you have just defeated me. If my hand grab on your arm, since our bodies are connected as one unit, there is no way that you can push me back without me to pull you in with me. If you pushing becomes my pulling, I don't see any win or lose there.

It's also not clear how to win in chi sao too.

Hence both methods suck as "challenge methods" and hence the chi sao match of Gary's was NOT a challeneg match.

[Jake104]

I disagree here as Vingtsun is a martial Skill Prove it ! And do it with Class not being off balance chasing hands reaching etc .Gary looked Pants man:D And no one wants to admit it GH said What ever and got Served a under the belt foul ,for saying his opinion:(

Ipman when challenged by Wsl handled him with ease and control , high level Skill he didn't have to Crack heads bones or what ever for the young . Shun leung to realise he found his Sifu.

Point is Theres a Saying in Vingtsun Kung fu "Don't speak of who is senior or junior. The one who attains the skill first is the senior Iow Dont become a lazy Fat cat man You'll will get Merked :eek::D

I agree, prove it! By fighting! Chi Sao doesn't prove squat. Maybe You would no this if you fought. You would also know that fighting is not always pretty like the scene from IP man movie you described above between IM And WSL. If you think GL skills are lacking then challenge him to a fight. Because at the end of the day is wing chun for fighting, or for?

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see how you can just challenge someone in "grip fight" without challenge him in "wrestling" all the way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't see how you can just challenge someone in "grip fight" without challenge him in "wrestling" all the way.

I agree, but typically chi sao demos are all about slapping the other guy while controlling him and keeping from getting slapped by him.
The one with more slaps landed, wins.
:D
Think two girls in babydoll lingerie slapping and ripping each others close off.

[goju]

I dont get it.:confused: I just saw it as the guy managing to get in on gary once then gary showed him whos his daddy . But i just saw this as two guys competitively practicing the drill not as a hostile "incident"

[Jake104]

I dont get it.:confused: I just saw it as the guy managing to get in on gary once then gary showed him whos his daddy . But i just saw this as two guys competitively practicing the drill not as a hostile "incident"

Thats what I saw.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dont get it.:confused: I just saw it as the guy managing to get in on gary once then gary showed him whos his daddy . But i just saw this as two guys competitively practicing the drill not as a hostile "incident"

That's what everybody with eyes and no agenda saw too.
;)

[Jake104]

:D
Think two girls in babydoll lingerie slapping and ripping each others close off.

That's what I'd like to see

Edit:pay to see

[YouKnowWho]

chi sao demos are all about slapping the other guy ...

This is the problem for the striking art. You may slap on your opponent's face many times, as long as you have not knocked him down, he will not admit defeat. There is no "satisfaction" in that process. When you take someone down, you then drop your knee on his chest, you know you got him.

[k gledhill]

The general public doesnt know what chi-sao is for or its relationship to Ving Tsun.
The vast majority think its for a game of sensitivity...sticking to hands.

[GlennR]

And its things like this that make me drift further and further away from Wing Chun........

[Jansingsang]

I agree, prove it! By fighting! Chi Sao doesn't prove squat. Maybe You would no this if you fought. You would also know that fighting is not always pretty like the scene from IP man movie you described above between IM And WSL. If you think GL skills are lacking then challenge him to a fight. Because at the end of the day is wing chun for fighting, or for?


No no no you got the wrong end of the stick mate. I wasn't describing any ipman movie:rolleyes: I was talking historical fact When Wsl first met Ipman ok or should i spell it Yipman so we dont get it Twisted with the Movie :D Agreed prove it you just fight at the end of the day .

Either you walk away or leave in a ambulance simple Chi sau is a drill one must adhere to the fundamentals of the drill, and not be technically flawed I have chi saued Gary and it was a funny exchange cause he talks a lot while doing it like saying your doing mistakes, but i showed him something to think on and he knew from the

Simple exchange i know my stuff so ive been there mate done it, so i can have my opinion about him. Iam not here to try embarrass Gary but we must always remain humble and not make the lime light erode are Martial spirit I love this S%t man.
Been doing it half my forty five year life since a kid of fourteen do the maths :) All iam saying is keep it Real and don't trip ,which quite a few of these Big name Sifus seem to do these days

[Jake104]

The general public doesnt know what chi-sao is for or its relationship to Ving Tsun.
The vast majority think its for a game of sensitivity...sticking to hands.

I think I agree , but what is the end goal? To become a master of chi Sao and tour the world chi sao'n and winning trophies? Or is it a tool for becoming a better fighter?

[k gledhill]

I think I agree , but what is the end goal? To become a master of chi Sao and tour the world chi sao'n and winning trophies? Or is it a tool for becoming a better fighter?

Fighting !! is the short answer :D A book is the long answer to chi-sao and it being the 'soul' of the VT fighter.

[Hendrik]

it is very obvious momentum handling wise this person doesnt have it compare with Gary.

If it is a real fight, with Gary's full attack, he cant take Gary's momentum. no way he could stand. he really doesnt have much to show.

[Hendrik]

I think I agree , but what is the end goal? To become a master of chi Sao and tour the world chi sao'n and winning trophies? Or is it a tool for becoming a better fighter?

if you master chi sau, you master momentum handling. anytime the one with better momentum handling is a better fighter.

a major part of Real fight is about momentum handling if the fight didnt end with a single strike.

[Jake104]

Fighting !! is the short answer :D A book is the long answer to chi-sao and it being the 'soul' of the VT fighter.

A book like book deal. That's the pants. whatever the he'll that means.:confused:

[k gledhill]

A book like book deal. That's the pants. whatever the he'll that means.:confused:

..means the answer to chi-sao and its relationship in multi faceted and long...no book deal. pants ?

[Phil Redmond]

. . .The thing about wing chun is that it holds chi sau as the gold standard of training and testing. = . . .
I have no clue as to how you came to that conclusion. The standard of good martial arts training is fighting. Chi Sau is simply an exercise. There are people good at Chi Sau that can't fight.

[Jake104]

..means the answer to chi-sao and its relationship in multi faceted and long...no book deal. pants ?

Thanks for clearing that up. Us common folk may need help every once and awhile with certain vernacular being used.

[omarthefish]

That's what everybody with eyes and no agenda saw too.
;)

Tell me about it. What makes this vid an embarrassment to the entire WC community is not Gary Lam getting pwned...lol. It's the massive over reaction on the part of WC practitioners everywhere. Can you imagine if you sparred a couple rounds with Floyd Mayweather and you happened to get video of yourself landing "a" jab on him and then went around the net bragging about how Mayweather ain't all that. Hey man, I totally nailed him with that one jab that one time. . .:rolleyes:

Just to drive the point home and because this topic annoys me, I created a tiny highlight video of the Switerland "incident":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlB22_c8er8

[YouKnowWho]

This thread just remind me this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

[omarthefish]

lol. Yeah. Kind of.

Different events but the responses are kind of similar.

[Subitai]

I don't think it reflects badly on Gary, WC or Kung Fu at all. Everybody is human, ie not perfect.

We all know that fighting doesn't look pretty. I guess the underlying reason I felt like posting this up was because of my feeling that Kung fu gets the double standard all the time.

That is: other disciplines get plenty of chances to setup thier opponent and make thier methods work. Boxing perfect example.

Kung fu on the other hand is too often perceived to be just like a movie. So if a fancy move doesn't work ON THE VERY 1ST EXCHANGE...then obviously kung fu must suck.

Omars vid nails it, when Gary Neck grabs the dude and kind of shows some gritty mock punches (IE what he would do if he was Pi$$ed off)... to me it shows a more realistic albeit relaxed Gary.
;) I'm not saying that MOCK Fighting is real fighting, i'm just pointing out that Gary didn't have to be in perfect stances or body structure to kick some ass if he wanted to either.

I don't know why it should bother some people if Kung Fu fighting doesn't end up looking PERFECTLY like a form...because it almost never does, Unless you sneak up on someone haha.

Ground connection, hip transfer, relaxed shoulder, sunk elbow as a common ground for kung fu punching can still be there. Even if for some, it looks kinda ugly.

[trubblman]

Gary Lam Challenged, "Switzerland Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtnVykMlG8&feature=related

Of course Chi Sao is not fighting but I think that in the initial moves...GL got caught off guard probablly because he was just too comfortable and not expecting an attack.



This incident is the reason that one cannot bring video cameras or mobile phones to most seminars.

In another note, chi sao is not fighting. I have done chi sao with people who wanted to make it a testosterone contest. This is what I see in the video. This and other videos which purportedly show VT "masters" getting "owned" does a disservice to the art.

[Vajramusti]

This thread just remind me this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE
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The Taiwanese taichi person had poor structure and was much less skilled than CXW- just adjusted to the force- stepping back at one point....CXW did not retaliate...didn't need to- as far as I can tell.

[Brule]

I don't think it reflects badly on Gary, WC or Kung Fu at all. Everybody is human, ie not perfect.

We all know that fighting doesn't look pretty. I guess the underlying reason I felt like posting this up was because of my feeling that Kung fu gets the double standard all the time.

That is: other disciplines get plenty of chances to setup thier opponent and make thier methods work. Boxing perfect example.

Kung fu on the other hand is too often perceived to be just like a movie. So if a fancy move doesn't work ON THE VERY 1ST EXCHANGE...then obviously kung fu must suck.

Omars vid nails it, when Gary Neck grabs the dude and kind of shows some gritty mock punches (IE what he would do if he was Pi$$ed off)... to me it shows a more realistic albeit relaxed Gary.
;) I'm not saying that MOCK Fighting is real fighting, i'm just pointing out that Gary didn't have to be in perfect stances or body structure to kick some ass if he wanted to either.

I don't know why it should bother some people if Kung Fu fighting doesn't end up looking PERFECTLY like a form...because it almost never does, Unless you sneak up on someone haha.

Ground connection, hip transfer, relaxed shoulder, sunk elbow as a common ground for kung fu punching can still be there. Even if for some, it looks kinda ugly.

Reading this post reminds me of that vid a few years back of the street fight between one guy with a red shirt showing his kung fu pose and the other guy trying to keep his pants up and being all tough. When the fight went down the red shirt guy threw a few, what looked like, sow choys and landed one that KTFO the other guy. He used his style to set up his opponent.

This 'challenge' vid is an example of the sifu not expecting his partner to test him. IMO, an instructor needs to be ready at all times when he/she partners up with someone new because you never know their intentions. You cannot let your guard down for one sec, just be ready. Not saying that in this vid the guy had bad intentions, but he obvisouly wanted to test out the Sifu.

[Vajramusti]

This 'challenge' vid is an example of the sifu not expecting his partner to test him. IMO, an instructor needs to be ready at all times when he/she partners up with someone new because you never know their intentions. You cannot let your guard down for one sec, just be ready. Not saying that in this vid the guy had bad intentions, but he obvisouly wanted to test out the Sifu.
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True. When you are dealing with a subject matter and teaching, talking and explaining one can suddenly have a person seeking his minute of fame.
That's all that there was to the Gary Lam incident.

It's happened to others . There is the Boztepe "challenge" at a a William Cheung seminar.
Boztepe's reputation began there.


In taiji-- in Tucson (I was there) a big guy took a swing at CXW after a quick warning-- CXW
controllrd the guy and out him down on the floor. In an incident in Germany (hamburg??)- a person jumped CXW from behind and got a Chen elbow to his heart..resulting in the guy needing medical attention because of the possibility of heart fibrillation. CXW since then requires very strict waiver of liability from participants in seminars.


In Tucson- years ago... Sugar Ray Leonard was preparing for a bout with an Argentinian. In camp-- one person in the audience insisted in doing some light sparring. Leonard allowed him into the ring.. but the guy really tried to go for it. A quick flashing Leonard left hook to the liver
humbled the challenger.(I was there in the audience)

Onlookers do not always keep in mind -there are possible legal issues involved - specially in over-reacting by someone who is challenged..

[goju]

Tell me about it. What makes this vid an embarrassment to the entire WC community is not Gary Lam getting pwned...lol. It's the massive over reaction on the part of WC practitioners everywhere. Can you imagine if you sparred a couple rounds with Floyd Mayweather and you happened to get video of yourself landing "a" jab on him and then went around the net bragging about how Mayweather ain't all that. Hey man, I totally nailed him with that one jab that one time. . .:rolleyes:
Just to drive the point home and because this topic annoys me, I created a tiny highlight video of the Switerland "incident":

That actually happened only it was floyd mayweather sr who was sucker punched:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbVJkyt-mgg

[Vajramusti]

That actually happened only it was floyd mayweather sr who was sucker punched:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbVJkyt-mgg
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M sr -in his 60s(?) knocked the young guy down and was walking away with his back turned
when he got hit.

[Yoshiyahu]

Personally I dont think Gary Lam got owned or beaten.

In fact i think the other guy got humbled.

Although i disagree with how Gary Lam got angry and used aggression when he is clearly doing a sensitivity drill and not fighting.

Alls the video proves is Good Teachers dont always make good fighters.

Look at all the great fighters like

Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Trindad, Floyd Mayweather, Mohammed Ali, and others...Now look at their trainers...How many of them where great fighters?

Look at Basketball and football coaches...how many of them where great football and basketball players...


Michael Jordan is a great basketball player but not a great coach.

Good Fighters usually dont make good teachers.

Good Teachers usually don't make good fighters.

Good Teachers produce good fighters.

All we see is that Gary Lam is not really as skilled as some of the other Sifus out there. Look at ip chun and ip ching when they chi sau with non-intitated and non-trained guys. They control the guy with out so much aggression.


Gary Lam issue is that the guy was able to breach his defenses a few times. Oh yea the guy manage to hit gary more than once...It just shows Gary may not be skilled enough yet to prevent an novice from getting a few hits on him...

But it doesn't mean he is a bad teacher because his skill level may not be as high as others. Look at Emin Botezp...Watch him spar and do chi sau. He dominates. Unlike Gary Lam those who do chi sau with him dont get luck shots off...

Everyone has a different skill level.

Also Gary Lam is older and out of shape too. That plays a major role in your WC.

Just because you have a high skill level doesn't mean you can always win against someone who is more conditioned and experience than you are.

[Hendrik]

so, what is the best response for you if you are in Gary's position?

[YouKnowWho]

so, what is the best response for you if you are in Gary's position?
If you allow your challenger to walk away freely, people will challenge you for the rest of your life. If you hurt your challenger badly, nobody will want to challenge you for the rest of your life. The decision will be yours.

I don't know about the modern law but in the old time, when you challenged someone, you took your own life responsibility. In the old time if you dare to put SC jacket on, if your opponent killed you in the match, your family could not sue your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpHxBFXWhvY

The SC jacket was called "hero skin". If you have it on you, you can't turn down any challenge. The only way for you to turn down a challenge is the moment that your opponent puts on his SC jacket, the moment that you take yours off. The challenge rule was written crystal clear in the past. Today I truly don't know where to draw that line.

The attitude of "If you dare to touch me, I'll sue you", just make TCMA no fun any more. :(

[Fa Xing]

The attitude of "If you dare to touch me, I'll sue you", just make TCMA no fun any more. :(

True that!

[Yoshiyahu]

The key is to own nothing and be a vagabond...that way if they sew you all they can get is the dirt from your feet!


If you allow your challenger to walk away freely, people will challenge you for the rest of your life. If you hurt your challenger badly, nobody will want to challenge you for the rest of your life. The decision will be yours.

I don't know about the modern law but in the old time, when you challenged someone, you took your own life responsibility. In the old time if you dare to put SC jacket on, if your opponent killed you in the match, your family could not sue your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpHxBFXWhvY

The SC jacket was called "hero skin". If you have it on you, you can't turn down any challenge. The only way for you to turn down a challenge is the moment that your opponent puts on his SC jacket, the moment that you take yours off. The challenge rule was written crystal clear in the past. Today I truly don't know where to draw that line.

The attitude of "If you dare to touch me, I'll sue you", just make TCMA no fun any more. :(

[guy b.]

Gary was being nice.
A certain points you can see that He is holding HIMSELF back from following through.
The other guy got lucky.
Of course Gary had size and skill on his size.
Still, he showed a great deal of control and for those that have seen Gary go HARD, that was him going half force at best.

If anything the challenger was being nice. He clearly let Gary hit him a couple of times towards the end, probably in order to calm him down. Gary was angered by the light touch at the start of chi sau and lost control.

Gary Lam simply didn't have any skill advantage (in the context of wing chun skill) against this person. He failed to achieve a wing chun solution to the problem. All that happened was an overweight angry man used his weight to push into another person while weakly punching.

It is laughable that anyone can look at this and think it isn't bad for Lam and wing chun in general.

[Chadderz]

Wtf are you all arguing about? I seen two guys touch each other up?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=guy b.;

It is laughable that anyone can look at this and think it isn't bad for Lam and wing chun in general.[/QUOTE]
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How is that single incident at a Gary Lam seminar- bad for wing chun in general??
Amazing conclusion!!!

What a thread arising from a few seconds at a seminar!!

[guy b.]

Wtf are you all arguing about? I seen two guys touch each other up?


Exactly. Apparently it is supposed to bear some relation to fighting and some famous guys are supposed to be much better at touching up other guys than average (even though when touched unexpectedly all they can manage is what looks like a drunken grope in return).

[guy b.]

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How is that single incident at a Gary Lam seminar- bad for wing chun in general??
Amazing conclusion!!!

What a thread arising from a few seconds at a seminar!!

The reason it is bad for wing chun is that Gary Lam is a wing chun celebrity, almost universally lauded and celebrated by other wing chun practitioners as one of the best.

And yet here he appears to be really poor at doing the tiny, possibly fighting related thing that wing chun specialises in, compared to a rank beginner. This is bad for wing chun in the book of any objective person.

[couch]

And yet here he appears to be really poor at doing the tiny, possibly fighting related thing that wing chun specialises in, compared to a rank beginner. This is bad for wing chun in the book of any objective person.

How does getting caught by surprise and then owning the guy show that he has inferior skill?

[Chadderz]

Oooh, right, he's a legend so therefore he's invincinble, why didn't you say so? :rolleyes:

[Grumblegeezer]

How does getting caught by surprise and then owning the guy show that he has inferior skill?

It doesn't. The whole thing was absolutely trivial. The dude slipped in a light shot or two on Lam and then got dominated. Lam did appear annoyed for a bit, after all the guy's attitude was rude.... but it sure wasn't a "challenge". There was barely any contact. I can't believe how a few armchair warriors are trying to make a big deal out of this! Bogus.

[lance]

Apologies if the Chunners have already discussed this.

I was just browsing along and found this:

Gary Lam Challenged, "Switzerland Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtnVykMlG8&feature=related

Of course Chi Sao is not fighting but I think that in the initial moves...GL got caught off guard probablly because he was just too comfortable and not expecting an attack.

Everyone's human, perhaps GL could have taken it to the guy after the initial contact but I think he played it cool enough.

It was his demo or speech...if he felt he could shake hands on it, then he must not have been that pi$$ed at all.

Go figure, "O"

Subitai , it was ' nt only WC Sifus who was challenged , I don ' nt know if you know a Choy Li Fut sifu name Mak Kin Fai , I don ' t remember how long ago it was but , his club performed kung fu and lion dancing for the seattle chinese new year . What happened was that , this other kung fu club was performing either an hour before Mak Fai ' s group came out or after this other kung fu club came out . But any way , it seemed that mak fai ' s group their performance was alot better than the other kung fu club , so what happened the other kung fu club went to Sifu Mak Fai ' s choy li fut school to challenge them .

Unfortunately Sifu Mak ' s assistant instructors and for those people who been in the club for a long period of time , in other words people who had alot more experiences in kung fu than the non experiemce ones . Was able to survive the confrontation with the other kung fu schools .

Sifu mak fai got only a few scrapes and bruises , but was able to give the sifu of the other kung fu club a good beating .

You know what happened to Gary Lam at that seminar with that guy , it happened to other WC sifus too . Sure , Lam got suckered punch but he gave that guy a message with his hands , he was telling him that if he ' s going to play sneaky and dirty like the way he suckered punched lam , then lam is going to pay him back . There ' re people out there who only like to make ass out of the sifu who is putting on the seminar . But the consequences can be devastating .

[Graham H]

The only positive message I took from that video is thats what you look like when you eat too many pies and can't do wing chun so stay off the muffins. :D

G

[Kevin73]

That's one of the things I've noticed about "challenges". Unless you hurt the person, they usually won't recognize that they have been owned. Even listening to the Gracie accounts, they would choke people out etc. and they would keep saying it was luck or another reason. Most of the time, they would start slapping them around to show their dominance.

For the most part, it is a lose/lose situation for an instructor. If he hurts the guy, then he is liable or gets a bad reputation as a buylly, but if he doesn't, than everyone will talk about how bad he was.

[Graham H]

That's one of the things I've noticed about "challenges". Unless you hurt the person, they usually won't recognize that they have been owned. Even listening to the Gracie accounts, they would choke people out etc. and they would keep saying it was luck or another reason. Most of the time, they would start slapping them around to show their dominance.

For the most part, it is a lose/lose situation for an instructor. If he hurts the guy, then he is liable or gets a bad reputation as a buylly, but if he doesn't, than everyone will talk about how bad he was.

Maybe if there was some wing chun in that video then maybe my viewpoint would be slightly different but as it stands any idot can walk up to somebody and push them around a bit if they are of a large stature. If that is the result of years and years of kung fu training from a person that is world reknowned for being a student of WSL then I wouldn't want to be a part of it thats for sure.

It looks to me as if Gary has gone off on a tangent probably caused by a preference to marketing and money grabbing rather than maintaining a level of skill and conditioning.

G

[MOSHE]

Every style has a way to freeze an opponent if you dont want to hurt him;

shinah
seizing ...

Wing chun as well ,but for this ,you need to control every part of your forearm

and with the good angle ,you will be able to pressure him

but if you are training physic ,you cannot ,you only know to punch

your arms are dead

STILL YOU WILL BE GOOD IN KICK BOXING

AND I TELL YOU ALL THE SCHOOLS WHO ARE PROPOSING TO PRACTISE WING CHUN WITH THIS KIND OF TRAINING , GO DIRECT TO PRACTISE KICK BOXING ,YOU WILL BE A BETTER FIGHTER

[mawali]

Too much of modern CMA relies on performance and 'face saving' and not on actual dispensing of martial knowledge quotient! Keeping that in mind, there are some worldwide location where challenges would be the norm so saving face would be useless and should be. Yang Luchan is quoted as saying something to the effect that if you are better than him, you had better kick his arse.

Another strategy is that if you possess skill, keep it 'hidden' in plain sight to gain the upper hand so I think that Gary Lam's Challenge wasn't wasn't as such but both sides showed how low level their conflict resolution skills were!

Let the Games begin!

[Vajramusti]

That's one of the things I've noticed about "challenges". Unless you hurt the person, they usually won't recognize that they have been owned. Even listening to the Gracie accounts, they would choke people out etc. and they would keep saying it was luck or another reason. Most of the time, they would start slapping them around to show their dominance.

For the most part, it is a lose/lose situation for an instructor. If he hurts the guy, then he is liable or gets a bad reputation as a buylly, but if he doesn't, than everyone will talk about how bad he was.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true. It takes some intelligence for some to understand when a slap is a slap and when
it is the foundation for greater power that is controlled and under wraps.
The author of "Shadow Box"(Plimpton) knew that when Archie moore tapped his nose to trigger a sympathetic response- there be thunder there.
Fools may not learn even when sledgehammered.

[guy b.]

How does getting caught by surprise and then owning the guy show that he has inferior skill?

This is not owning.

[guy b.]

Maybe if there was some wing chun in that video then maybe my viewpoint would be slightly different but as it stands any idot can walk up to somebody and push them around a bit if they are of a large stature. If that is the result of years and years of kung fu training from a person that is world reknowned for being a student of WSL then I wouldn't want to be a part of it thats for sure.

It looks to me as if Gary has gone off on a tangent probably caused by a preference to marketing and money grabbing rather than maintaining a level of skill and conditioning.

G

At last a person with an unblinkered view.

I realise it is difficult for people that have invested a lot of time in wing chun to admit that a major name sifu respected by most people might not actually be very good at the thing he claims to be good at.

A big out of shape guy getting annoyed by a light touch to the face and then pushing his opponent around using weight while showing none of the stuff wing chun is supposed to be good at is not "domination", "owning" or an "ass kicking". It is just an embarrassment. You can see this kind of thing in playgrounds every day.

[Graham H]

At last a person with an unblinkered view.

I realise it is difficult for people that have invested a lot of time in wing chun to admit that a major name sifu respected by most people might not actually be very good at the thing he claims to be good at.

A big out of shape guy getting annoyed by a light touch to the face and then pushing his opponent around using weight while showing none of the stuff wing chun is supposed to be good at is not "domination", "owning" or an "ass kicking". It is just an embarrassment. You can see this kind of thing in playgrounds every day.

Well put!!!

The worrying thing is that some people see that video as containing good wing chun. Says a lot about their own systems to me.

GH

[Yoshiyahu]

Graham and Guy.B


I have to agree...Gary Showed he lack skilled when he got hit three or four times...

Look at Augstine Fong. Look at his Chi Sau demos....he shows his dominance by putting up a great defense and not allowing the other person to land one hit while he strikes repeately. But just because your good at chi sau dont mean your WC is fight ready!!!


the best way for any Sifu to show their WC works is by sparring. Then you will know who is a fighter and who is not...

Frankly Good fighters can give you tips on fighting but as for actual training and learning the system i rather go to their teachers. Most good fighters dont make good teachers.


But ne way. How could gary lam save face.

First instead of demostrated Chi Sau on a beginner or someone who doesnt do wing chun he should have allowed an open sparring session


If you spar with a person others outside of WC will see that your WC is useful for more than just a drill.

As for Gary Lam owning the other guy. The other guy had a clear advantage on gary lam

Skill aint just good technique it is the following
1.strength and power
2.accuracy and precision
3.timing
4.flexibility and agility
5.speed
6.endurance and stamina
7.mastering applications of techniques

If someone is stronger and faster than you...sometimes having a good techniques aint enough. Just because Gary Lam weighs more doesn't mean he can take the guy in actual sparring...


the guy skill level allowed him to hit gary lam in the face two to four times...

Gary Lams hissy fit shows he is angry not at the other guy but at himself for not being able to feel a strike coming and intercepting it. It says he wasnt sensitive enough to feel his partners intent.

Possibly the guy doing the exercise was not really a beginner at all. Possibly he is fighter. An those with more fight experience know when to hit.

Someone who has no formal training but has good speed, good stamina and alot of power and strength coupled with a natural fighting ability and experience will beat your average joe boxer, mt or wc guy any day...

Gary Lam is great Sifu...maybe not a great fighter but a great sifu. I respect him for getting the info out there...But can he apply his techniques on a resisting opponent 100% of the time. Probably not...

[Hardwork108]

Maybe if there was some wing chun in that video then maybe my viewpoint would be slightly different but as it stands any idot can walk up to somebody and push them around a bit if they are of a large stature. If that is the result of years and years of kung fu training from a person that is world reknowned for being a student of WSL then I wouldn't want to be a part of it thats for sure.

It looks to me as if Gary has gone off on a tangent probably caused by a preference to marketing and money grabbing rather than maintaining a level of skill and conditioning.

G

In kung fu, there comes a time that you don't need to use the other guy's strength against him. That is, if you are much stronger than him, then this approach is not really necessary. In WC, when you see an opening, you enter and overwhelm. Openings can sometime happen when your opponent is weak and "gives".

IMHO, that is what happened in the video.

[Hardwork108]

As for this being a "challenge", it WASN'T!

However, I am not discounting the possibility that it was a "test challenge", in that the guy slips in a quick shot, to test the waters. If he had detected fear or weakness on Gary's part, then he might have gone on to attempt and beat him up - as in a "challenge". However, having seen that sifu Lam was not a push over, he continued in Chi Sao mode.

Anyway, I believe that what I hypothsized is a good possible motive behind what the guy did.

[guy b.]

In kung fu, there comes a time that you don't need to use the other guy's strength against him. That is, if you are much stronger than him, then this approach is not really necessary. In WC, when you see an opening, you enter and overwhelm. Openings can sometime happen when your opponent is weak and "gives".

IMHO, that is what happened in the video.

Given that you are a conspiracy theorist I find your credulity difficult to understand. It would be ok to believe this if it happened, but it didn't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its not the video that gives WC a bad name, it's threads like this.
:eek:

[Vajramusti]

Its not the video that gives WC a bad name, it's threads like this.
:eek:
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Absolutely- enough is enough.. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
and it's sti afternoon ona sunny Arizona day

[Hardwork108]

Given that you are a conspiracy theorist
You won't see me as a "conspricacy theorist" if you open your mind and brush up on you geopolitical knowledge.;)



I find your credulity difficult to understand. It would be ok to believe this if it happened, but it didn't.
Well, if Gary Lam was all over the guy and pushed him around like rag doll. This fact makes the other guy WEAK, as opposed to Gary Lam, who was strong. Once you have superior firepower in most, if not all, kung fu styles, then you bulldoze through, which Gary Lam did.

So, what do you find so difficult about my "credulity" as regards what was shown clearly on the video?

[Graham H]

You won't see me as a "conspricacy theorist" if you open your mind and brush up on you geopolitical knowledge.;)



Well, if Gary Lam was all over the guy and pushed him around like rag doll. This fact makes the other guy WEAK, as opposed to Gary Lam, who was strong. Once you have superior firepower in most, if not all, kung fu styles, then you bulldoze through, which Gary Lam did.

So, what do you find so difficult about my "credulity" as regards what was shown clearly on the video?

How tall and heavy are you HW108? Sounds to me like you are probably the same as Gary. A big guy who doesn't need much skill but likes to push smaller guys around. Big guys tend to beleive in the fixed, rooted idea of WC simply because they can do it. Smaller guys need speed, skill, mobilty and power that comes from using the whole body simultaneously whilst striking.

Big strong guys can make many things happen that smaller guys cannot. Ving Tsun teaches one to use a stronger, larger opponents force against them but this idea has been misinterpreted into making contact with arm bridges and trying to wrestle each other backward and forward whilst landing strikes. IMO that is incorrect!! Using a big guys strength against them should mean using their momentum i.e. when they throw a punch or move towrds you, you intercept their action and use a certain strategy that turns their striking limbs away from you. Making them cross themselves and also when they move you must cut their escape off much like a boxer cuts the ring down.

Gary Lam is a big guy. The opposite to the likes of WSL and Bruce Lee. If Gary Lam was a shorter guy and half the weight you would have seen a different exchange because Gary would not be able to walk forward and take cheap shots like he does there.

GH

[guy b.]

How tall and heavy are you HW108? Sounds to me like you are probably the same as Gary. A big guy who doesn't need much skill but likes to push smaller guys around. Big guys tend to beleive in the fixed, rooted idea of WC simply because they can do it. Smaller guys need speed, skill, mobilty and power that comes from using the whole body simultaneously whilst striking.

Big strong guys can make many things happen that smaller guys cannot. Ving Tsun teaches one to use a stronger, larger opponents force against them but this idea has been misinterpreted into making contact with arm bridges and trying to wrestle each other backward and forward whilst landing strikes. IMO that is incorrect!! Using a big guys strength against them should mean using their momentum i.e. when they throw a punch or move towrds you, you intercept their action and use a certain strategy that turns their striking limbs away from you. Making them cross themselves and also when they move you must cut their escape off much like a boxer cuts the ring down.

Gary Lam is a big guy. The opposite to the likes of WSL and Bruce Lee. If Gary Lam was a shorter guy and half the weight you would have seen a different exchange because Gary would not be able to walk forward and take cheap shots like he does there.

GH

Correct.

The laughable thing is that Gary Lam doesn't even do the big guy walk forwards and take cheap shots thing well and yet people are seeing this as some kind of domination.

The younger smaller guy is in absolutely no danger in this exchange.

[guy b.]

You won't see me as a "conspricacy theorist" if you open your mind and brush up on you geopolitical knowledge.;)



Well, if Gary Lam was all over the guy and pushed him around like rag doll. This fact makes the other guy WEAK, as opposed to Gary Lam, who was strong. Once you have superior firepower in most, if not all, kung fu styles, then you bulldoze through, which Gary Lam did.

So, what do you find so difficult about my "credulity" as regards what was shown clearly on the video?

He doesn't push anyone around like a rag doll. He gets angry and chases the other guy who easily evades any damage. I'm suprised at anyone describing Gary Lam's weak looking push punches as "strong" or "superior firepower". I question your credulity because you have obviously bought a myth and are going to extraordinary lengths in defending it.

[Hardwork108]

How tall and heavy are you HW108?
I am 5'11, NOT overweight, but stocky and strong. I have brown hair, brown eyes and I have great stamina. I am looking for liberal minded women who are into no strings attached encounters. I also enjoy the occassional FFM threesomes, but the women have to agree on this.

Yiiiiikes!!!! :eek: Wait a minute, wrong website! :D




Sounds to me like you are probably the same as Gary.
Wrong! I merely pointed out the WC (and other kung fu concept) of going through when you find a way or when there is no resistance, which can also mean going through when the opponent is weaker than you.

The Wing Chun (and other TCMA) approach is simple in that way....;)

If you were fighting a child, would you go into the more technical/absorption/avoidance,etc. stuff? Of course not. You would just overwhelm and give him a smack around the ears, which is basically what Sifu Gary Lam did to the smartass!


A big guy who doesn't need much skill but likes to push smaller guys around.

You got this all wrong. The trick has nothing to do with being big, but with finding smaller guys to push around. :D

SERIOUSLy, you are mistaken about me (and Gary Lam).:)


Big guys tend to beleive in the fixed, rooted idea of WC simply because they can do it.

"Big Guys" can believe whatever they want. The fact is that for you to have kung fu, you need strong and solid roots, but that does not mean FIXED.

The idea that having strong roots is a reference to fixed roots is a misconception that has arisen from people effected too much by the modern Mc dojo phenomenon.

There are people in this very forum with the usual "decades" of experience (in what, we ask!) that do not contemplate the idea of fluid movement (footwork included) and strong roots happening at the same time.


Smaller guys need speed, skill, mobilty and power that comes from using the whole body simultaneously whilst striking.
Anyone who studies any valid kung fu style within a genuine kwoon and lineage will have those qualities.

Wether he uses those qualities when it is unnecessary is another story, as you don't need those to make a point to a "child"!


Big strong guys can make many things happen that smaller guys cannot.

That is mainly because they are stronger. This fact highlights that the importance of correct TCMA power training, which can sometimes be very different from Western MA power training (not generally associated with WC), but hush, hush.....;)



Ving Tsun teaches one to use a stronger, larger opponents force against them but this idea has been misinterpreted into making contact with arm bridges and trying to wrestle each other backward and forward whilst landing strikes.
True, but don't get me started in all the clueless ways WC is practiced nowadays.

Again simplicity. You make your bridge to find a way through to destroy the opponent. No backwards or forwards, unless you are going forward and your opponent is going backwards, because he is being overwhelmed!

Incidentally, that is what happened in the Gary Lam's video.


IMO that is incorrect!! Using a big guys strength against them should mean using their momentum i.e. when they throw a punch or move towrds you, you intercept their action and use a certain strategy that turns their striking limbs away from you. Making them cross themselves and also when they move you must cut their escape off much like a boxer cuts the ring down.
Looking at the video, the "smaller man" did not manage to do much of the above, whre as "larger guy" overwhelmed him and had him on the run. One can only imagine what would have happened if Gary Lam had decided to teach him a real lesson.


Gary Lam is a big guy. The opposite to the likes of WSL and Bruce Lee. If Gary Lam was a shorter guy and half the weight you would have seen a different exchange because Gary would not be able to walk forward and take cheap shots like he does there.
Each person fights using his own physical advantages. If Gary was smaller, but still had the same years of experience in Wing Chun, then perhaps he would have overwhelmed this same opponent, through speed and technique? Who knows?

The same as if WSL had been bigger, perhaps people would have accused him of what Gary Lam is being accused of in this thread?

[Hardwork108]

He doesn't push anyone around like a rag doll. He gets angry and chases the other guy who easily evades any damage.

Do you really believe that Gary Lam was attemting to damage that person?


I'm suprised at anyone describing Gary Lam's weak looking push punches as "strong" or "superior firepower".
Let's put it this way, if you are holding a .22 revolver and the guy infront of you is holding a M16 rifle. Then he won't have to turn you into Swiss cheese to prove his superior fire power.

Also, I doubt that even you think that Gary Lam was using maximum power on that guy!


I question your credulity because you have obviously bought a myth and are going to extraordinary lengths in defending it.

I don't "buy" myths. What I stated is mainly based on what I saw on the video-clip) and to lesser extent knowing for a fact that Gary Lam is a fighter)!

[guy b.]

Do you really believe that Gary Lam was attemting to damage that person?


Let's put it this way, if you are holding a .22 revolver and the guy infront of you is holding a M16 rifle. Then he won't have to turn you into Swiss cheese to prove his superior fire power.

Also, I doubt that even you think that Gary Lam was using maximum power on that guy!



I don't "buy" myths. What I stated is mainly based on what I saw on the video-clip) and to lesser extent knowing for a fact that Gary Lam is a fighter)!


You just bought the myth that Gary Lam is a fighter. His movements in that clip are not the movements of a fighter. In fact he can't even achieve the basics of chi sau "domination" that would probably make you very excited.

You also bought the myth that Gary Lam has massive firepower at his disposal when all of the evidence suggests he doesn't.

[Wayfaring]

Again simplicity. You make your bridge to find a way through to destroy the opponent. No backwards or forwards, unless you are going forward and your opponent is going backwards, because he is being overwhelmed!

Incidentally, that is what happened in the Gary Lam's video.

It looked to me like first of all it was a demo, not sparring. Next, the opponent got in a shot on Gary, which p1ss3d him off.

Why did he get in a shot? Because he had more energy in the punch than Gary's lower hand forward intent in the chi sau exchange. All the back and forth regarding what this shows in WCK skill is pretty worthless, as that type of thing can happen easily with someone going slow or light and the opponent stepping it up. This is a very common occurance even in sparring. "Let's go light" as an agreement followed by 100% spaz. So it's not a real shocker that can happen in a demo where Gary probably is not expecting that.

After Gary wis p!ss3d, then the guy wouldn't engage - he kept running away. No, that probably wasn't due to "domination", but probably more like because the guy realized he p!ss3d Gary off, and that he was "that guy" in a seminar so he was backing down in a way. Yes, Gary was probably trying to smack him to teach him a lesson, but it's kind of hard to do that when someone is backing away that quickly, unless you can corner them.

So what is all this? Much ado about nothing, IMO.

It was a seminar, or looked more like a demo actually as all participants were in the stands, not mixing it up with one another applying techniques taught. Someone in the stands got feisty, there was a little exchange, it went back to normal. All the rest is sheer speculation. And yes, Gary is older and not currently in fighting shape, which doesn't reflect on his WCK knowledge at all. He'd probably be hard pressed to handle a skilled conditioned pro fighter in a full bout, as just about anyone would at that age difference.

To me, it's only people who don't have much exposure to consistent sparring that would have some extreme reaction to this clip.

[Hardwork108]

You just bought the myth that Gary Lam is a fighter. His movements in that clip are not the movements of a fighter.
And that would be because he was not fighting???


In fact he can't even achieve the basics of chi sau "domination"
Well, next time Gary Lam is in your part of the woods, feel free to go to one of his seminars to show him how it is done. If you do, then you will probably get a shot in and then end up getting b!tch slapped like our "hero" in the video....LOL


that would probably make you very excited.
Most guys posting here have no idea about the SCOPE of chi-sao, not just in Wing chun, but also in other TCMAs. You are splitting hairs, while having never experienced a "full head of hair"......;)


You also bought the myth that Gary Lam has massive firepower at his disposal when all of the evidence suggests he doesn't.

All the evidence that was needed was in the video. He overwhelmed the guy, WITHOUT using massive firepower. Draw your own conclusions, but keep in mind that sifu Lam is heavily built so using even basic body unity concepts can give him more power than he needs.

[Frost]

6 pages of snipping and snidness from people who dont post clips at all....seriously and people wonder why wing chun is seen as it is..........:eek:

[guy b.]

It looked to me like first of all it was a demo, not sparring. Next, the opponent got in a shot on Gary, which p1ss3d him off.

Why did he get in a shot? Because he had more energy in the punch than Gary's lower hand forward intent in the chi sau exchange. All the back and forth regarding what this shows in WCK skill is pretty worthless, as that type of thing can happen easily with someone going slow or light and the opponent stepping it up. This is a very common occurance even in sparring. "Let's go light" as an agreement followed by 100% spaz. So it's not a real shocker that can happen in a demo where Gary probably is not expecting that.

After Gary wis p!ss3d, then the guy wouldn't engage - he kept running away. No, that probably wasn't due to "domination", but probably more like because the guy realized he p!ss3d Gary off, and that he was "that guy" in a seminar so he was backing down in a way. Yes, Gary was probably trying to smack him to teach him a lesson, but it's kind of hard to do that when someone is backing away that quickly, unless you can corner them.

This is a fair assessment of what happened. Gary got ****ed off because the guy touched him, he tried to retaliate, but found he couldn't get near due to the relative speed and youth of his challenger.

It's no beig deal, but the delusional Gary Lam worshipers are out on force defending the allegedly overwhelming asskicking that Gary dealt to this upstart (while barely managing to touch his opponent or do anything remotely resembling wing chun).

Gary Lam failed even to push the guy over using body weight: all of his attacks were evaded. If the challenger had started firing back Gary Lam would most likely have been ko'd.

[goju]

I dont see gary as being ****ed. As i said the exercise got competitive with each guy trying to tag the other as you should when you do a drill with a partner. if you just sit there half assed doing the exercise what will you get from it?

More importantly if you're a teacher and you're regularly doing a drill with a student who doesn't fully commit to attacking and defending your skill with diminish over time because everyone is playing to nice and not really going for it out of some delusion that "master cant get hit after all he is the master therefore invincible!":rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

It looked to me like first of all it was a demo, not sparring. Next, the opponent got in a shot on Gary, which p1ss3d him off.

Wouldn't you be p!ssed off? I know at least to TCMA sifus who would have KO-ed or at least given something to remember them by, to anyone who suckerpunched them. I believe that Gary Lam was a lot more forgiving than they would be.


IWhy did he get in a shot?
Because Gary Lam does not have black belt in BJJ? :D



Because he had more energy in the punch than Gary's lower hand forward intent in the chi sau exchange.
We can talk til the cows come home as regards why the guy got in shot. I don't even know if this was a "free for all" chi sao, or wether the guy just slipped in a quick one while sifu Lam was attempting to demonstrate something.



All the back and forth regarding what this shows in WCK skill is pretty worthless, as that type of thing can happen easily with someone going slow or light and the opponent stepping it up. This is a very common occurance even in sparring. "Let's go light" as an agreement followed by 100% spaz.

Again, I know sifus that would make you pay dearly if you said one thing and did another!!!!


So it's not a real shocker that can happen in a demo where Gary probably is not expecting that.

I agree, anyone can get hit in such circumstances. What I am curious about is the motive of the guy who hit him?


After Gary wis p!ss3d, then the guy wouldn't engage - he kept running away. No, that probably wasn't due to "domination", but probably more like because the guy realized he p!ss3d Gary off, and that he was "that guy" in a seminar so he was backing down in a way.
I disagree. The person in question was "that guy in the seminar" before the engagement. Then he was "that guy..." during the engagement, when he slipped one in. The suddenly he decides that he wants out???? LOL!

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it could have been a case of him testing the waters. There is a chance that if Gary Lam had backed off or shown fear/weakness then the "that guy in the seminar" might been all over him with more shots, if not worse.


Yes, Gary was probably trying to smack him to teach him a lesson, but it's kind of hard to do that when someone is backing away that quickly, unless you can corner them.

That is why Wing Chun has grabs and takedowns, but Gary Lam made his point, without taking it to the extreme....


So what is all this? Much ado about nothing, IMO.
I can relate to that on some level, but then this is an internet forum and I doubt we are going to get too far discussing the more profound aspects of TCMA when most people here don't even have an idea about the scope of exercises such as Chi sao......


It was a seminar, or looked more like a demo actually as all participants were in the stands, not mixing it up with one another applying techniques taught. Someone in the stands got feisty, there was a little exchange, it went back to normal.
Agreed.


All the rest is sheer speculation. And yes, Gary is older and not currently in fighting shape, which doesn't reflect on his WCK knowledge at all. He'd probably be hard pressed to handle a skilled conditioned pro fighter in a full bout, as just about anyone would at that age difference.
Agreed


To me, it's only people who don't have much exposure to consistent sparring that would have some extreme reaction to this clip.
I know, that guy b fella has a lot to learn......:D

[Hardwork108]

6 pages of snipping and snidness from people who dont post clips at all....seriously and people wonder why wing chun is seen as it is..........:eek:

Don't tell me that Wing Chun will be seen in better light, if it adopts Olympic Weight training methodologies, specially for its Internals....:eek::D

[Frost]

Don't tell me that Wing Chun will be seen in better light, if it adopts Olympic Weight training methodologies, specially for its Internals....:eek::D

could it be seen in a worse light :D:D

could you :D

[Hardwork108]

could it be seen in a worse light :D:D
Probably not, because most people who practice "Wing Chun" are practicing some mish mash of confusion and half truths - en empty shell version of what genuine wing chun is all about.

So, as long as there are "Wing Chun" practitioners who see chi sao as a basic exercise, without realizing its full scope; see, rooting as being fixed to the spot; see internals as a fantasy; think trimming a style that they have not completed as a wise choice, etc.etc. etc., then I am afraid that they will be laughed at and ridiculed!

No arguments from me there!


could you :D

Most people here can see me at whatever light they wish, while I see that no matter what their actual fighting ability is, they are generally clueless about true TCMA practice, and this is not so strange, because in the real world outside of the internet, most TCMA practitioners are victims of the Mcdojo phenomenon as well.

[Wayfaring]

Wouldn't you be p!ssed off? I know at least to TCMA sifus who would have KO-ed or at least given something to remember them by, to anyone who suckerpunched them. I believe that Gary Lam was a lot more forgiving than they would be.

I wouldn't have been out in front of a bunch of bleachers in a stupid goat stance with my hands out asking for someone to punch me in my lips. But hey, that's just me.

Yes, people tend to get perturbed when you escalate and smack them.



Because Gary Lam does not have black belt in BJJ? :D

Ground skills had zero to do with this exchange. But of course, you're just being a 'tard.



We can talk til the cows come home as regards why the guy got in shot. I don't even know if this was a "free for all" chi sao, or wether the guy just slipped in a quick one while sifu Lam was attempting to demonstrate something.

He got hit because in boxing terms he wasn't "protecting himself at all times". But all that goes back to why exactly WCK people do public exchanges in training stances asking for trouble.


Again, I know sifus that would make you pay dearly if you said one thing and did another!!!!

"sifus". Please. It's a universal rule of sparring that if you say "let's go light, or 'I have an injury', or whatever other myriad of excuses there are to bring up, and then contraindicate that by spazzing out at 120% for 30 seconds and then gassing out that you are going to get a beatdown.



I agree, anyone can get hit in such circumstances. What I am curious about is the motive of the guy who hit him?

He wanted to be a d1ck and try to mess up Gary Lam. Impishness if I had to guess.


I disagree. The person in question was "that guy in the seminar" before the engagement. Then he was "that guy..." during the engagement, when he slipped one in. The suddenly he decides that he wants out???? LOL!

Pretty much. Because unlike on this forum, the guy in question wasn't 100% committed to being a d1ck.


As I mentioned in an earlier post, it could have been a case of him testing the waters. There is a chance that if Gary Lam had backed off or shown fear/weakness then the "that guy in the seminar" might been all over him with more shots, if not worse.

Well, since Gary is no stranger to sparring scenarios, of course he's not going to react like that. He's going to react like 99.999% of people who spar regularly would.


That is why Wing Chun has grabs and takedowns, but Gary Lam made his point, without taking it to the extreme....

Oh, yes, of course. I forgot - WCK's awesome grappling and takedown techniques. I think I've seen a couple videos on them on this forum this month. You know, where one guy punches and holds out the punch and the other guy magically reaches under his chin, turns him around and takes him down by kicking the back of the knee? Yeah, right. No need to go to those extremes....



I can relate to that on some level, but then this is an internet forum and I doubt we are going to get too far discussing the more profound aspects of TCMA when most people here don't even have an idea about the scope of exercises such as Chi sao......

Yeah, apparently they don't have an idea about the scope of them. What is interesting to me in that regard is some of the latest writeup Savi did on sifu Garrett Gee's latest seminar - how in HFY WCK chi sau is "earned", not "offered".

Now, to me, there's a profound aspect of TCMA that might be a good perspective to consider.

[Wayfaring]

This is a fair assessment of what happened. Gary got ****ed off because the guy touched him, he tried to retaliate, but found he couldn't get near due to the relative speed and youth of his challenger.

I don't know how hard he was pursuing either. The standard chi sau "game" usually doesn't involve sprinting after a dude running backwards.



It's no beig deal, but the delusional Gary Lam worshipers are out on force defending the allegedly overwhelming asskicking that Gary dealt to this upstart (while barely managing to touch his opponent or do anything remotely resembling wing chun).

Yeah, they are something aren't they.



Gary Lam failed even to push the guy over using body weight: all of his attacks were evaded. If the challenger had started firing back Gary Lam would most likely have been ko'd.
The challenger didn't impress me as a guy that could ko a whole lot of anything....

To me it's more a statement of the standard chi sau game and rules and how it fails to really translate to free motion exchange.

[Hardwork108]

I wouldn't have been out in front of a bunch of bleachers in a stupid goat stance with my hands out asking for someone to punch me in my lips. But hey, that's just me.
Hey, you can disrespect a style of TCMA that you have no idea about all you want. The issue here is not the goat stance or any other aspect of the style that you may not be familiar with beyond a superficial level, the issue is Gary Lam's reaction to what happened and how some people think he ended up looking as opposed to what others think!


Yes, people tend to get perturbed when you escalate and smack them.
Yes, very true. I have even heard that the MMA-ists also get perturbed in such instances....:D



Ground skills had zero to do with this exchange. But of course, you're just being a 'tard.
I was just hypothesizing that if he was a BJJ black belt the student would have been wrapped, controlled and submitted by having his genitals in some arm bar type lock, but who knows.....:D



He got hit because in boxing terms he wasn't "protecting himself at all times".
I believe that "protecting yourself at all times" is not only a super dooper boxing concept. ;)

Also, there is a rumor (often denied) that is going around that boxers get hit too, even when they are "protecting themselves at all times". Of course, this is probably not true because modern boxers, using their scientific methods can "protect themselves at all times", not like those "fantasy" TCMA-ists, eh? LOL


But all that goes back to why exactly WCK people do public exchanges in training stances asking for trouble.
So, you think that Gary Lam got hit because of his stance?.....LOL!


"sifus". Please. It's a universal rule of sparring that if you say "let's go light, or 'I have an injury', or whatever other myriad of excuses there are to bring up, and then contraindicate that by spazzing out at 120% for 30 seconds and then gassing out that you are going to get a beatdown.
It is also a universal truth that if you are conducting a seminar and wish to demonstrate certain techniques or concepts, while breaking them down, then you cannot go 120% and you would expect the person who is there to learn not to be a D!ck head!



He wanted to be a d1ck and try to mess up Gary Lam. Impishness if I had to guess.
Well, he paid for it by being made to look bad, weak and COWARDLY, except that is to the usual clueless brigage who post in kung fu forums all over the internet.


Pretty much. Because unlike on this forum, the guy in question wasn't 100% committed to being a d1ck.

That Guy b fella. I mean what are we going to do about him???:p


Well, since Gary is no stranger to sparring scenarios, of course he's not going to react like that. He's going to react like 99.999% of people who spar regularly would.
Wow, newsflash for the MMA-ists here. There are Wing Chun schools who actually spar.....who would have thought, eh?


Oh, yes, of course. I forgot - WCK's awesome grappling and takedown techniques. I think I've seen a couple videos on them on this forum this month. You know, where one guy punches and holds out the punch and the other guy magically reaches under his chin, turns him around and takes him down by kicking the back of the knee? Yeah, right. No need to go to those extremes....
That statement demonstrates that you have no idea as to the scope of Wing Chun grappling, and I would say striking, but don't worry as you are in good company, because most people who claim to practice "Wing Chun" are in a similar situation as yourself. ;)



Yeah, apparently they don't have an idea about the scope of them. What is interesting to me in that regard is some of the latest writeup Savi did on sifu Garrett Gee's latest seminar - how in HFY WCK chi sau is "earned", not "offered".

Now, to me, there's a profound aspect of TCMA that might be a good perspective to consider.

I have not read that thread, but when it comes to chi sao, most people here have no idea. It is treated as a game of "improving" limited aspects, and the practitioners never get to delve deeper, so they don' t see beyond their noses, so to speak.


Hey, I try to make some useful imput once in a while, but people don't listen, because they have their comfort zones limited to practicing Empty Shell kung fu, even if from a well known lineage, or training this half baked kung fu while mixing it with MT, BJJ, TKD and what have you. What stops them from "evolving" is their egos, which prevents them from admitting that they have been exposed to incomplete TCMA methodologies or mediocre teaching. So, it is never their fault for being duped, nor it is fault of their beloved (quite often, franchise) "sifu".

It is that simple and it is that sad!

[Hardwork108]

Guy b, jokes aside, are you another Phillip Bayer guy?

[anerlich]

This whole debacle is a good example of why other martial artists laugh at WC. :(

100% correct

[anerlich]

That's what everybody with eyes and no agenda saw too.
;)

Exactly. To see this as a challenge match is a total joke. I feel sorry for the other guy as he didn't really do anything but is getting verbally crucified by fanboys.

Storm,meet teacup.

[anerlich]

I dont see gary as being ****ed. As i said the exercise got competitive with each guy trying to tag the other as you should when you do a drill with a partner. if you just sit there half assed doing the exercise what will you get from it?

More importantly if you're a teacher and you're regularly doing a drill with a student who doesn't fully commit to attacking and defending your skill with diminish over time because everyone is playing to nice and not really going for it out of some delusion that "master cant get hit after all he is the master therefore invincible!":rolleyes:

Correct. I need 10 characters.

[Graham H]

Guy b, jokes aside, are you another Phillip Bayer guy?

That's a good sign! As soon as somebody starts to talk a bit of sense you think he is a Philipp Bayer guy. Awesome! :D

That is all. :)

G

[Hardwork108]

That's a good sign! As soon as somebody starts to talk a bit of sense you think he is a Philipp Bayer guy. Awesome! :D

That is all. :)

G

It is just that some you guys have been spewing too much of your "sense" in this forum lately.......;)

[Hardwork108]

Exactly. To see this as a challenge match is a total joke. I feel sorry for the other guy as he didn't really do anything but is getting verbally crucified by fanboys.

Personally speaking I am not a "fan boy". I have never trained with Gary Lam and what I train is pretty different in many ways to what he teaches. However, respect has to be given when it is due, and I made my comments based on what I saw in the clip.

[Hardwork108]

6 parts...

http://singaporetaijiquan.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/learning-from-the-gary-lam-incident/


Jox :)

Thanks for the link, which contains a sensible assessment of what happened. :)

[anerlich]

Personally speaking I am not a "fan boy".

I wasn't addressing you personally, and find the notion of being lectured on respect from someone who wouldn't know it if it came up and bit him on the a$$ to be absurd.

[Robinhood]

Probably not, because most people who practice "Wing Chun" are practicing some mish mash of confusion and half truths - en empty shell version of what genuine wing chun is all about.

So, as long as there are "Wing Chun" practitioners who see chi sao as a basic exercise, without realizing its full scope; see, rooting as being fixed to the spot; see internals as a fantasy; think trimming a style that they have not completed as a wise choice, etc.etc. etc., then I am afraid that they will be laughed at and ridiculed!

No arguments from me there!



Most people here can see me at whatever light they wish, while I see that no matter what their actual fighting ability is, they are generally clueless about true TCMA practice, and this is not so strange, because in the real world outside of the internet, most TCMA practitioners are victims of the Mcdojo phenomenon as well.

Nice to read some posts from someone that can see the root of MA, it too bad that there are so many people around that are clueless and think that MA is learned by putting boxing gloves on and jumping around on a matte, that's just called kick boxing.

That's like putting gloves on your hands and then trying to learn Braile.

With that kind of training no wonder we are breading a group of clueless sheep.

Then you have the big mouths that keep saying internal is a fantasy, I guess to them its a fantasy, but if you can demonstrate it, and show it, and show the difference with and without, and teach it, how can it be a fantasy.

[Graham H]

B
It is just that some you guys have been spewing too much of your "sense" in this forum lately.......;)

You should try it sometime.

[Hardwork108]

B

You should try it sometime.

I am still trying to make sense of you guys talking "sense"!;)

[Graham H]

I am still trying to make sense of you guys talking "sense"!;)

I'm still trying to make sense of you trying to make sense of us guys talking sense! ;)

G

[Hardwork108]

I'm still trying to make sense of you trying to make sense of us guys talking sense! ;)

G

I know, there is just no sense in trying to make sense of you guys....not unless you start practicing WC in a complete manner. :D;)

[Hardwork108]

Nice to read some posts from someone that can see the root of MA, it too bad that there are so many people around that are clueless and think that MA is learned by putting boxing gloves on and jumping around on a matte, that's just called kick boxing.

That is because most of the ones with that attitude, who post here are nothing but glorified kickboxers. ;)

Some of them would even have us believe that kickboxing is better than kung fu. Of course, one cannot blame them too much for this attitude, because most of these character have never practiced TCMAs in a genuine manner, despite their proclaimed "decades" of "experience".

Of course, one always questions their motives for posting in a KUNG FU forum, but one can never get clear answers from these people......


That's like putting gloves on your hands and then trying to learn Braile.

That is an EXCELLENT parallel.

They don't understand that if MA training was to be limited to two people standing in ring and giving each other brain damage, then no one would have come up with hundreds of styles of TCMAs. It is amazing that these people never even wonder why?

They never even contemplate that perhaps they have missed something? LOL


With that kind of training no wonder we are breading a group of clueless sheep.
Oh, I see that you are familiar with MO of the majority of "I am MMA but I 'like' kung fu" posters here.....;)


Then you have the big mouths that keep saying internal is a fantasy, I guess to them its a fantasy, but if you can demonstrate it, and show it, and show the difference with and without, and teach it, how can it be a fantasy.
Some of these people's experience is limited to chain punching practice in a Mcdojo, together with a mish mash of god knows how many MAs. Others here see the existance of the Internals but they classify them differently, according their own "scientific" belief or even dogma.

At the end of the day, to know for sure they will need to dedicate time to practice, but we all know that they won't because for them the only MA is the one where they put on the gloves and kill each other's brain cells....which by the way explains the "depth" of some of their posts that you may read in this forum....LOL!

Of course, intense sparring should be regarded as a part of a multi faceted training program, that includes the internals, forms, Iron skills, study of concepts and principles,etc.

PS. Good to read your posts, as well.:)

[guy b.]

Guy b, jokes aside, are you another Phillip Bayer guy?

No. What does Philllip Bayer have to do with Gary Lam looking ridiculous in a seminar?

[Wayfaring]

I was just hypothesizing that if he was a BJJ black belt the student would have been wrapped, controlled and submitted by having his genitals in some arm bar type lock, but who knows.....:D

Well, I wasn't bringing this up because the exchange in question took place on the feet, but hey, since you're going there...

Actually, the Gracie Combatives program (which is what they teach prior to blue belt, not black), involves 4 Phases - 1) Close the distance, 2) Execute the takedown, 3) Achieve dominant position 4) Finish the fight.

In this type of scenario, with an opponent backing away, of Phase 1 there are 3 specific techniques taught, and one (#15) that deals with closing the distance with an opponent reacting specifically like the guy in this scenario did. From there are 8 specific techniques for takedowns taught (#29, #6, #14, #21, #23, #26, #17, #32) that lead to mount, side mount, a submission, or guard. The combatives teach only a couple of submissions from there as it is an intro and self defense course, but of course from mount or side mount there are plenty of WCK techniques that would pretty devestatingly take care of just about anyone.

And yes, someone who is a blue belt who has sufficiently trained all of those combatives self defense segments could adequatly handle that challenger to the point of finishing the fight quickly.

Oh, and again since you brought it up, if you and your group of TCMA friends don't have access to adequate ground instructors, if they are too expensive to cross-train, or if you just aren't into that if it's not Chinese based, then it might be a viable option for you to get the Gracie Combatives DVD's - www.gracieuniversity.com, so that you and your friends can start to learn the difference between skilled competant training in ground skills and the type of fake pretend ground skills you see demonstrated on WCK YouTube videos.


Also, there is a rumor (often denied) that is going around that boxers get hit too, even when they are "protecting themselves at all times". Of course, this is probably not true because modern boxers, using their scientific methods can "protect themselves at all times", not like those "fantasy" TCMA-ists, eh? LOL

The more you train realistically the more you see that you probably ARE going to get hit in a fight.


So, you think that Gary Lam got hit because of his stance?.....LOL!

No, but I think the traditional starting point of chi sau in a square stance and offering your hands up to bridge leaves holes. For example, against a reasonably skilled boxer, you start out that way, he starts out in his fighting stance, you'll most likely get hit with a jab. It leaves an opportunity for an opponent to start then speed things up real fast and get in a lucky strike like Gary's opponent did there.


Wow, newsflash for the MMA-ists here. There are Wing Chun schools who actually spar.....who would have thought, eh?

Some do. Gary Lam's guys do. Too few do it, and those that do don't do enough of it, and they usually don't do it with skilled enough opponents.



That statement demonstrates that you have no idea as to the scope of Wing Chun grappling, and I would say striking, but don't worry as you are in good company, because most people who claim to practice "Wing Chun" are in a similar situation as yourself. ;)

Actually, with my background I think that regarding the mix of Wing Chun and ground skills I probably know more than anyone on this board with the exception of anerlich, and knifefighter (Dale) who hasn't posted here in a while.



Hey, I try to make some useful imput once in a while, but people don't listen, because they have their comfort zones limited to practicing Empty Shell kung fu, even if from a well known lineage, or training this half baked kung fu while mixing it with MT, BJJ, TKD and what have you. What stops them from "evolving" is their egos, which prevents them from admitting that they have been exposed to incomplete TCMA methodologies or mediocre teaching. So, it is never their fault for being duped, nor it is fault of their beloved (quite often, franchise) "sifu".

Well there are many that study and have studied more than one art. I've studied many. Some have "evolved" just fine. One example - Dan Inosanto. He's never stopped adding to his knowledge and base, and that includes many TCMA, Phillipine MA to include knife/weapon proficiency, and oh, yes, he is a BJJ black belt too although that's not anywhere near his primary art.

I've always been a proponent of finding the best hands-on instruction you can, wherever you can, and to work with the best and highest level sparring partners you can find.

But hey, there's always the clueless on the internet that have found their one TCMA "guru" and blindlessly follow them to the exclusion of all common sense and other approaches. You can usually tell them by how they are haters of anything that could possibly involve mixing more than one traditional art. The funny thing they don't realize is that most of the top TCMA teachers have studied more than one art, including Yip Man.

[Hardwork108]

I wasn't addressing you personally, and find the notion of being lectured on respect from someone who wouldn't know it if it came up and bit him on the a$$ to be absurd.

I am "disrespectful" to only those people who insist in posting in kung fu threads while they wouldn't recognize genuine TCMAs (as opposed to a mish mash of pseudo kung fu and other unrelated arts), if they came and bit them in the a$$ (hint! ;))

[Hardwork108]

Well, I wasn't bringing this up because the exchange in question took place on the feet, but hey, since you're going there...

Actually, the Gracie Combatives program (which is what they teach prior to blue belt, not black), involves 4 Phases - 1) Close the distance, 2) Execute the takedown, 3) Achieve dominant position 4) Finish the fight.

In this type of scenario, with an opponent backing away, of Phase 1 there are 3 specific techniques taught, and one (#15) that deals with closing the distance with an opponent reacting specifically like the guy in this scenario did. From there are 8 specific techniques for takedowns taught (#29, #6, #14, #21, #23, #26, #17, #32) that lead to mount, side mount, a submission, or guard. The combatives teach only a couple of submissions from there as it is an intro and self defense course, but of course from mount or side mount there are plenty of WCK techniques that would pretty devestatingly take care of just about anyone.

And yes, someone who is a blue belt who has sufficiently trained all of those combatives self defense segments could adequatly handle that challenger to the point of finishing the fight quickly.

Oh, and again since you brought it up, if you and your group of TCMA friends don't have access to adequate ground instructors, if they are too expensive to cross-train, or if you just aren't into that if it's not Chinese based, then it might be a viable option for you to get the Gracie Combatives DVD's - www.gracieuniversity.com, so that you and your friends can start to learn the difference between skilled competant training in ground skills and the type of fake pretend ground skills you see demonstrated on WCK YouTube videos.

Look, thank you for the suggestion, but I believe that people who practice complete TCMA styles in genuine Kung fu kwoons, can live without BJJ DVDS!

Of course, there is nothing to stop anyone to experiment other arts, but to imply that one cannot be an effective fighter without learning BJJ is kind of silly.....

By the way, I am very much aware of the effectiveness and validity of BJJ. I have lived in Rio de Janeiro for 5 years and will probably back there for good in a few years time...;)


The more you train realistically the more you see that you probably ARE going to get hit in a fight.
I hope you did not get that line from one of your BJJ DVDS....LOL!

Look seriously, this is not a Traditional Chinese Ballet Dancing forum, it is a TCMA forum.;)

People study TCMAs to improve their fighting ability, unless that is, they have ended up in some McDojo and drawn the wrong conclusion that the whole of the TCMAs are bad.


No, but I think the traditional starting point of chi sau in a square stance and offering your hands up to bridge leaves holes. For example, against a reasonably skilled boxer, you start out that way, he starts out in his fighting stance, you'll most likely get hit with a jab. It leaves an opportunity for an opponent to start then speed things up real fast and get in a lucky strike like Gary's opponent did there.

Look, no one is going to fight a boxer in goat stance! LOL!

The goat stance has its purposes and in chisao it is a starting point. Once one's skills improve then the chisao becomes mobile, with punches, palm strikes, elbows, Chin-na and takedowns.


Some do. Gary Lam's guys do. Too few do it, and those that do don't do enough of it, and they usually don't do it with skilled enough opponents.

A lot of schools spar and a lot don't do. Also, it is not wise to assume that the opponents are not "skilled", just because they don't practice other arts or MMA!



Actually, with my background I think that regarding the mix of Wing Chun and ground skills I probably know more than anyone on this board with the exception of anerlich,

You know what you know, and that is a mixed bag of "tricks" that may work for you and effectively at that, but that does not mean that sticking to a single well rounded TCMA and studying it in a genuine kwoon is obsolete now, just because some people in the Northern Hemisphere have made the discovery that a fight might go to the ground! LOL!


and knifefighter (Dale) who hasn't posted here in a while.
You can thank the moderators for Dale's absence. Really, I mean it, please thank them, because I would thank them everyday if I could!


Well there are many that study and have studied more than one art.

People can study as many arts that they want. What they can't do is suggest improvements about TCMAs that they have no clue of, based on some half baked study in some franchise or Mcdojo kwoon, and face it, over 95% WC out there, is JUST THAT!



I've studied many. Some have "evolved" just fine.
That is good for you, and it may be doing you good, but that does not make you a TCMA expert. I post here to learn from TCMA experts to increase my knowlegde. I don't post in a TCMA forum to get lectured on the benefits of BJJ, MMA fighting, nor that of Olympic Weight training.


One example - Dan Inosanto. He's never stopped adding to his knowledge and base, and that includes many TCMA, Phillipine MA to include knife/weapon proficiency, and oh, yes, he is a BJJ black belt too although that's not anywhere near his primary art.
Inosanto has my respect, but I would not go to him for deep kung fu knowledge, just as I would not go to Bruce Lee for it either.

Why is this concept so difficult for you MMA types to understand.:confused:


I've always been a proponent of finding the best hands-on instruction you can, wherever you can, and to work with the best and highest level sparring partners you can find.

I am the same, I found the best sifus to train with, and you may even find that if your sifus are among the best, then so will your sparring partners. ;)


But hey, there's always the clueless on the internet that have found their one TCMA "guru" and blindlessly follow them to the exclusion of all common sense and other approaches.

If you are referring to me, then I have no "guru". However, in today's world of Mcdojos and conmen, one needs to appreciate the real sifus who take the time to teach an art in a complete and authentic manner. This is why people like me object when people base their criticisms and therefore "improvements" of the TCMAs on half completed studies in empty shell "kung fu" practices.


You can usually tell them by how they are haters of anything that could possibly involve mixing more than one traditional art.
Hey, I have nothing against people mixisng their arts. I only take issues with people who are jack of all trades, who have questionalble experience in kung fu, blabbing about the "weakenesses" of, in some cases all, TCMAs, and then go on to advise us on how they can be "iimproved". All of this based on some time spent in a Mc dojo!!!

So again, mix and mash your MA all you want. If it works for you then I am happy for you, but don't criticize styles that you have no more than a passing knowledge of.


The funny thing they don't realize is that most of the top TCMA teachers have studied more than one art, including Yip Man.

Of course the masters have trained other styles. They learned their various kung fu styles from genuine MASTERS, and probably not before having gained a working understanding (more than "I know central line theory and chain punching, hence I know wing chun") of their core style before going to expand. If you see my profile, then you will see that my experience includes Chow Gar, as well.

Of course, my curriculum is missing Tae Kwon Do and BJJ, but I hope you can forgive me for that.:D

[Wayfaring]

Look, thank you for the suggestion, but I believe that people who practice complete TCMA styles in genuine Kung fu kwoons, can live without BJJ DVDS!

Of course, there is nothing to stop anyone to experiment other arts, but to imply that one cannot be an effective fighter without learning BJJ is kind of silly.....

By the way, I am very much aware of the effectiveness and validity of BJJ. I have lived in Rio de Janeiro for 5 years and will probably back there for good in a few years time...;)

I AM stating that without spending ample time building ground skills in an art that actually has those ground skills you will NOT be an effective complete fighter.
And if you THINK your "authentic TCMA ground skills" can accomplish that, then there is a very easy way to prove it. Enter the Rio de Janiero state grappling championships and see how you do. One of my instructors won it. How about yours? Could you place in the white belt division?


Look seriously, this is not a Traditional Chinese Ballet Dancing forum, it is a TCMA forum.;)

Maybe if it was a TCBD forum your comments would be closer to relevant.


People study TCMAs to improve their fighting ability, unless that is, they have ended up in some McDojo and drawn the wrong conclusion that the whole of the TCMAs are bad.

Complete hogwash. People improve their fighting ability by being in an environment to test and build their fighting ability. This may or may not have anything to do with TCMA - usually it's dictated by the sifu. Most of them don't fight. Like yours. With the apparent influences you have experienced, I would surmise you study a lot of role-based fantasy and your fighting skills consist of being a level 8 mage in world of warcraft.


Look, no one is going to fight a boxer in goat stance! LOL!

Well then why are they squaring off against a stranger in public on video doing just that?


The goat stance has its purposes and in chisao it is a starting point. Once one's skills improve then the chisao becomes mobile, with punches, palm strikes, elbows, Chin-na and takedowns.

Actually, mostly it degrades into an irrelevant test of supposed "skill". People don't practice "chi sau" as free movement sparring.


A lot of schools spar and a lot don't do. Also, it is not wise to assume that the opponents are not "skilled", just because they don't practice other arts or MMA!

I'm not assuming. I'm seeing it for fact on video.


You know what you know, and that is a mixed bag of "tricks" that may work for you and effectively at that, but that does not mean that sticking to a single well rounded TCMA and studying it in a genuine kwoon is obsolete now, just because some people in the Northern Hemisphere have made the discovery that a fight might go to the ground! LOL!

LOL at studying more than one art as "tricks". Tell it to the "authentic TCMA" instructors that have done so for generations. And yes, ground skills are necessary to be a complete fighter in all ranges. Why this is a revelation to you is a huge question. Actually, not. It's because you live in fantasy land, not in a land building actual martial skill.


You can thank the moderators for Dale's absence. Really, I mean it, please thank them, because I would thank them everyday if I could!

I don't think he was banned. Victor and Terence were. But I believe you that their presence deeply disturbed the RBSD types like yourself. People certainly like to cling to their fantasies with a passion.


People can study as many arts that they want. What they can't do is suggest improvements about TCMAs that they have no clue of, based on some half baked study in some franchise or Mcdojo kwoon, and face it, over 95% WC out there, is JUST THAT!

The hilarious part about it is that the people ordering the Gracie Combatives and implementing ground self-defense skills are the McDojo strip mall TKD schools.

When the McDonald franchise copycats are smarter than you, it's time to hang it up!!!!


That is good for you, and it may be doing you good, but that does not make you a TCMA expert. I post here to learn from TCMA experts to increase my knowlegde. I don't post in a TCMA forum to get lectured on the benefits of BJJ, MMA fighting, nor that of Olympic Weight training.

No, I am a TCMA student, not expert. However, I am also a complete martial artist or striving to be. And you probably should listen to every single lecture on BJJ, MMA, and Olympic weight training as every single one of them would increase your martial skills.


Inosanto has my respect, but I would not go to him for deep kung fu knowledge, just as I would not go to Bruce Lee for it either.

Inosanto's depths probably lie in the Philippine arts - kali / escrima, etc. and edged weapons. But his kung fu knowledge at its shallowest point is deeper than you. I'd be honored to train with guro Dan.


If you are referring to me, then I have no "guru". However, in today's world of Mcdojos and conmen, one needs to appreciate the real sifus who take the time to teach an art in a complete and authentic manner. This is why people like me object when people base their criticisms and therefore "improvements" of the TCMAs on half completed studies in empty shell "kung fu" practices.

You mean like dwelling on "chi sau" for decades and never progressing to actually sparring? I agree, those empty shell "kung fu" practices need to go.



Hey, I have nothing against people mixisng their arts. I only take issues with people who are jack of all trades, who have questionalble experience in kung fu, blabbing about the "weakenesses" of, in some cases all, TCMAs, and then go on to advise us on how they can be "iimproved". All of this based on some time spent in a Mc dojo!!!

Good, then this means the incessant generalizations and flapping of your gums regarding people who train more than one art we can expect to stop? Excellent.
I was in a McDojo last week. My daughter got invited to a birthday party there. They were hard selling the TKD babysitting services. Nice couple - bought the franchise as a retirement option to keep them active. Expensive babysitting though. I'd never train there in spite of my semi-useless teenage years TKD black belt.


Of course the masters have trained other styles. They learned their various kung fu styles from genuine MASTERS, and probably not before having gained a working understanding (more than "I know central line theory and chain punching, hence I know wing chun") of their core style before going to expand. If you see my profile, then you will see that my experience includes Chow Gar, as well.

I've met plenty of MASTERS. Including many that would laugh if you call them that, but can consistently beat people including pro fighters in their arena. And others, who were long on titles, dollar amount requirements, and etiquette but short on fighting skills.


Of course, my curriculum is missing Tae Kwon Do and BJJ, but I hope you can forgive me for that.:D
You build on what you have. IMO the ground game is about 20% of the overall game you need to be complete. Kicks less.

[lance]

Graham and Guy.B


I have to agree...Gary Showed he lack skilled when he got hit three or four times...


>>>Yoshiyahu , how many times did you see the same video ? Gary got hit 1 - time , after that he gary dominated the guy with his WC skills . The guy did try to hit gary again , but was ' nt good at it , because gary was able to stop all his attacks , did you see his face , no matter how much he tried to dominate gary he
could ' nt because he got intimidated by garys' power .<<<<

Look at Augstine Fong. Look at his Chi Sau demos....he shows his dominance by putting up a great defense and not allowing the other person to land one hit while he strikes repeately. But just because your good at chi sau dont mean your WC is fight ready!!!

>>>Gary and Austine are good in their own way in WC , so it ' s not to compare .<<



the best way for any Sifu to show their WC works is by sparring. Then you will know who is a fighter and who is not...

>> What if the 2 - guys are just as good as eachother ? The sparring match will still continue . <<

Frankly Good fighters can give you tips on fighting but as for actual training and learning the system i rather go to their teachers. Most good fighters dont make good teachers.

>> In order to be a good fighter you ' ll have to pretty much beat every challenger you meet , depends on what kind of fighter you ' re talking about too ?
Good fighters get their knowledge and training from their instructors , all the fighters had to do was go and apply their knowledge . <<


But ne way. How could gary lam save face.

>> This guy really wanted to hurt gary and humiliate gary , so gary paid him off with his own WC skills . To me gary did save face he showed that guy that he was better than him to ( the guy who suckered punch him ) . <<

First instead of demostrated Chi Sau on a beginner or someone who doesnt do wing chun he should have allowed an open sparring session

>>Why ? This was garys' seminar so gary could do whatever he wanted to , I ' m pretty sure the guy who humuliated gary knew what he was dealing with as he came to participate in this seminar . Instead of touching hands with gary he suckered punch gary . And that ' s what started the challenge . <<


If you spar with a person others outside of WC will see that your WC is useful for more than just a drill.

>> Is ' nt that the way it ' s suppose to be ? <<

As for Gary Lam owning the other guy. The other guy had a clear advantage on gary lam

>> Not really , gary was just stopping all the attacks the guy was giving him , and gary as times went by did a technique called the trapping hands , and pinned the guy to the wall . <<

Skill aint just good technique it is the following
1.strength and power
2.accuracy and precision
3.timing
4.flexibility and agility
5.speed
6.endurance and stamina
7.mastering applications of techniques

If someone is stronger and faster than you...sometimes having a good techniques aint enough. Just because Gary Lam weighs more doesn't mean he can take the guy in actual sparring...

>> Bottom line is garys' moves was dominating the other guy , then how come the guy could ' nt pin gary to the wall ? The other guy had no power against gary
mentally he thought he could handle gary , but when gary came in close contact the guy , he got pounded out against the wall . The guy was ' nt a good fighter anyway , he tried to penetrate gary but could ' nt , because gary had a strong defense , that ' s why . Before , they saluted to eachother the guy was looking down probably on frustration . That he could ' nt penetrate gary . In anykind of martial arts , they teach you how to condition the body through stance training and internal training . Gary probably did SLT form all the time , so that made him powerful .<<

the guy skill level allowed him to hit gary lam in the face two to four times...

>>I ' ve seen the video many times , because I knew that I was going to be arguing with someone on this topic thread . Gary got hit 1 - time , after that one time gary went all out with the guy .<<

Gary Lams hissy fit shows he is angry not at the other guy but at himself for not being able to feel a strike coming and intercepting it. It says he wasnt sensitive enough to feel his partners intent.

>> Gary choose to be this way if he got suckered punch , he would go after the guy with his own WC skills .<<

Possibly the guy doing the exercise was not really a beginner at all. Possibly he is fighter. An those with more fight experience know when to hit.

>> This was at a WC seminar where people come to learn something new , the guy only knew how to sucker punch that ' s all . Because , he could penetrate gary anyway . <<

Someone who has no formal training but has good speed, good stamina and alot of power and strength coupled with a natural fighting ability and experience will beat your average joe boxer, mt or wc guy any day...

>> Even though you had a good speed , stamina and alot of power and strenght ,
you still will need to learn how to use it in fighting . Because , what if your opponent tends to move around , so you also need to be accurate too .<<

Gary Lam is great Sifu...maybe not a great fighter but a great sifu. I respect him for getting the info out there...But can he apply his techniques on a resisting opponent 100% of the time. Probably not...

>>I hate to tell you this but you pretty much may not know what WC is . the way gary was dominating the guy was WC . If that guy was a good fighter he would stayed away from doing chi sao with gary and really give gary a hard time . He would ' ve tried any way to hurt gary kicking and punching gary right ? But he
did 'nt ? Why ? If gary was junk and sheddy , he would ' ve been on the ground too or getting pinned against the wall too ? If gary was junk how come he dominated his opponent ? Gary was a thai boxer , before he learned WC , and he was doing WC against the guy .<<

[Graham H]

and he was doing WC against the guy .<<

................which doesn't say much for your WC then does it?! :)

GH

[Hardwork108]

................which doesn't say much for your WC then does it?! :)

GH

Oh boy, here we go again......:rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Oh boy, here we go again......:rolleyes:

Yup and you're in the thick of it as usual Danielsan!

GH

[GlennR]

This must be a record for longest thread to a non-event ever.

[Hardwork108]

I AM stating that without spending ample time building ground skills in an art that actually has those ground skills you will NOT be an effective complete fighter.

And I am saying that if you practice a complete martial art that incorporates ground skills as a part of its curriculum, then you can combine all the elements within the style to become complete fighter.



And if you THINK your "authentic TCMA ground skills" can accomplish that, then there is a very easy way to prove it. Enter the Rio de Janiero state grappling championships and see how you do. One of my instructors won it. How about yours? Could you place in the white belt division?
Why should I take my kung fu skills to a sport's arena, specially a grappler's one? LOL! Doesn't sound like good "Art of War" to me....;)


Maybe if it was a TCBD forum your comments would be closer to relevant.
You won't know that for sure, unless you finally decide to study the TCMAs....;)


Complete hogwash. People improve their fighting ability by being in an environment to test and build their fighting ability.
If you had ever studied in a genuine kwoon, then you would know that is what they do.


This may or may not have anything to do with TCMA - usually it's dictated by the sifu. Most of them don't fight. Like yours.
You know, the more you go on making clueless assumptions then the less people will take you seriously, specially in view of the fact that you are not a TCMA-ist to start with.;)


With the apparent influences you have experienced, I would surmise you study a lot of role-based fantasy and your fighting skills consist of being a level 8 mage in world of warcraft.

:confused::confused:

Sorry, I have no idea what the above statement means!


Well then why are they squaring off against a stranger in public on video doing just that?
Again, if presumably the "stranger" has paid good money to go to a seminar, then one would expect them to have enough sense to use the time and make it a learning experience, instead of acting like d!ck heads????


Actually, mostly it degrades into an irrelevant test of supposed "skill". People don't practice "chi sau" as free movement sparring.
No one said that chi sao is fighting, but you can turn it into fighting when you smack someone in the face. All credit to Gary Lam for not doing exactly that, but instead showing his superiority within the confines of the chi sao exercise.

I guess sifu Lam's superiority discouraged the D!ck head into turning this into a fight as well.....


I'm not assuming. I'm seeing it for fact on video.

Everybody looks, but not everybody "sees".....;)


LOL at studying more than one art as "tricks". Tell it to the "authentic TCMA" instructors that have done so for generations.

Show me where I have said that TCMA instructors or masters haven't mixed styles!

The fact is that past TCMA masters did not cluelessly train in a mish mash of arts.



And yes, ground skills are necessary to be a complete fighter in all ranges. Why this is a revelation to you is a huge question.
This has never been a "revelation" to me, because major TCMA styles cover all ranges. This fact seems to be "taking its time" to become a "revelation" to you MMA-ists....LOL


Actually, not. It's because you live in fantasy land, not in a land building actual martial skill.
Actually, it is you who is making comments and assumptions about methodologies that you have never trained, not me. So I guess that makes you the one who is living in Fantasy Land.....;)


I don't think he was banned. Victor and Terence were. But I believe you that their presence deeply disturbed the RBSD types like yourself. People certainly like to cling to their fantasies with a passion.

If you want "deeply disturbed" then you should have watched superman, sorry Knifefighter sparring....LOL


The hilarious part about it is that the people ordering the Gracie Combatives and implementing ground self-defense skills are the McDojo strip mall TKD schools.
That would be because they are the ones who need all the help they can get?


When the McDonald franchise copycats are smarter than you, it's time to hang it up!!!!
They are smart because they want to learn MA from DVDs??? LOL!


No, I am a TCMA student, not expert.
Don't overestimate yourself. Or is that you are a Mcdojo kung fu-ist and your Mcdojo has just bought some BJJ DVDs, making you feel obliged to come and enlighten the TCMA-ists of this planet of your new found, "enlightenment"? LOL


However, I am also a complete martial artist

It sometimes seems that the world and this forum are full of "complete martial artists".....


or striving to be.

Don't worry, if you train hard, then you will get there, but I doubt that you will ever be TCMA expert as a complete martial artist.


And you probably should listen to every single lecture on BJJ, MMA, and Olympic weight training as every single one of them would increase your martial skills.

Believe me that I do. Afterall that is where I get my daily laughs from.....LOL!


Inosanto's depths probably lie in the Philippine arts - kali / escrima, etc. and edged weapons. But his kung fu knowledge at its shallowest point is deeper than you. I'd be honored to train with guro Dan.

Now, who is the one looking for guru worship? LOL!


You mean like dwelling on "chi sau" for decades and never progressing to actually sparring? I agree, those empty shell "kung fu" practices need to go.

Maybe the "kung fu" that you have been exposed to "dwells" on Chi sao, but in my Wing Chun training the chi sao is multi dimensional and infinite. Also we do spar....;)



Good, then this means the incessant generalizations and flapping of your gums regarding people who train more than one art we can expect to stop? Excellent.
I was in a McDojo last week. My daughter got invited to a birthday party there. They were hard selling the TKD babysitting services. Nice couple - bought the franchise as a retirement option to keep them active. Expensive babysitting though. I'd never train there in spite of my semi-useless teenage years TKD black belt.

Let me suggest to you that the main danger to TMAs does not come from the type of Mcdojos you just described, but from semi-respectable ones who perhaps claim that their grand masters (and their grandmothers) trained with Ip Man, with accompanying photos, I might add. Yes, the ones where you think that you are actually learning some authentic stuff, but that somehow you need to beef things up with other arts, as a "natural" MA "evolution", while not realizing that such schools are also Mcdojos.....

The above type of Mcdojos are the ones where most MMA "kung fu-ists" in this forum have trained at!!!


I've met plenty of MASTERS. Including many that would laugh if you call them that, but can consistently beat people including pro fighters in their arena. And others, who were long on titles, dollar amount requirements, and etiquette but short on fighting skills.

In my book, you have not met enough TCMA masters......;)


You build on what you have. IMO the ground game is about 20% of the overall game you need to be complete. Kicks less.

You can be complete by practicing a single major TCMA style in a THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED TO BE PRACTICED!. Having said that, there is nothing stopping you to increase your knowledge further once you have completed your given TCMA's curriculum.

[lance]

................which doesn't say much for your WC then does it?! :)

GH
I really don ' t know what you ' re talking about ? What are you talking about ?
Graham , I see alot of your topic post too myself , there is nothing beneficial in it ,
all it is negative things . And if you don ' t like WC at all then stay away from this WC forum . I thought I might see your negative comments as you reply to my topic post on WC . The last time was on the history of WC and you also made negative comments against my topic posts . It seems that you ' re jealous of WC ,
maybe you got beaten by a WC sifu or practioner maybe ?

Well sorry to tell you that it is what it is right ?, more WC things than other styles right ? It was ' nt only WC it was Choy Li Fut too , you ever heard of a guy named Mak Hin Fai ? One chinese new year in seattle , because Sifu mak ' s club was asked to perform a show for the chinese year celebration in seattle . The sifu of the other kung fu club , felt that Sifu mak ' s kung fu show was too good and better than what his kung fu school could do , so the sifu got jealous , and he
went over to sifu maks' kung fu school and made trouble . Sifu mak and the people who had been with him for a long period of time , was able to survive the attack , the people who did ' nt train very long was beaten up , and the children had to be locked up in the restroom for protection .

And if I ' m not mistaken you talk about MMA all the time , well to me I really like MMA , but you know what unless there is UFC challened fights all the time , I think it ' s dead . The last time my favorite fighter lost he was BJ Penn , so I threw him away already . The same thing with TCMA right ? It can go good or bad , but it ' s still around right ? To you it maybe junk right ? But it ' s still around right ?

GH , maybe you know something that I really may not know too , so what is the true history of WC ? , if it was ' nt a battle between a crane and a snake then , or the high shaolin monks getting together to create a new style , what is the true story of WC was created then ? If you can ' t answer my question with true information ? Then you BS too .

[Graham H]

If you can ' t answer my question with true information ? Then you BS too .

By day I'm just a mild mannered janitor............................:D

The other day I witnessed a fight between two butterflies. I sat and studied it for many hours and I think I have found a new evolution in unarmed combat. First I must go and grow some wings so I will keep you posted!

GH

[Hardwork108]

I get the feeling that if sifu Gary Lam had hospitalized that idiot, then all the "wing chun" practitioners who are criticising his knowledge now, would instead criticise his character and morality! LOL!

[Hardwork108]

By day I'm just a mild mannered janitor............................:D

"Janitor"? Yep, I can believe that.....:D


The other day I witnessed a fight between two butterflies. I sat and studied it for many hours and I think I have found a new evolution in unarmed combat. First I must go and grow some wings so I will keep you posted!

GH

Didn't PB ever teach you to walk away when you see a fight happening. I mean what if those butterflies had turned on you? :D