This is not WC

[YouKnowWho]

Many people love to say, "This is not WC ...".

I once made a statement, "In SC, the way that you apply a hook punch is to use your forearm to hit on the back of your opponent's head ..." Someone immediately said, "In our mantis system, we do that too." People just love to be included and hate to be left out.

I have found the following statements in this forum:

- My Baji also has that strike.
- My Bagua also has that throw.
- My longfist also has that kick.
- My mantis also has that lock.
- ...

Does this mean that style such as Baji, Bagua, longfist, mantis, ... want to belong to the TCMA main stream. Only WC doesn't want to belong to the TCMA main stream?

Instead of join in the discussion of "Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?", WC guys prefer to have their own "No Ground Fighting in Wing Chun!!!". :confused:

What's your opinion on this?

[Howard]

What's your opinion on this?

WC is boring.

[RenDaHai]

Hehe,

That's a keen observation.

Wing Chun is really strange because it is practised far more in the west than it is in China.

If you analyse many Kung Fu styles like Mantis, Shaolin, Taiji, Xingyi, Baji, ZhaQuan, PaoQuan, Hua quan etc. You'll find they contain largely the same techniques used in a similar way even with the same technique name. Even in the south a lot of the same techniques are used.

But Wing Chun is different. Why? I believe because its recent evolution has occured outside of China, largely away from the community of Wushu. Even in Hong Kong it is somewhat isolated, but it is practised so much in the west that it has evolved into a new style and people who practice it are so closed minded about its 'correct' use of technique. Also because the vast majority has been passed down through 1 lineage.

[EarthDragon]

As the old saying goes you only have 2 arm 2 leg, there are only so many things you can do with them and then they must repeat, this is also true of TCMA, JMA any MA.

To think that a certain style doesnt do these same repeating is just ludicrous. It seems perhaps WC wants to be the upper crust and not mingle witht he common folk LOL

[Vajramusti]

Many people love to say, "This is not WC ...".
((So what?))


Does this mean that style such as Baji, Bagua, longfist, mantis, ... want to belong to the TCMA main stream. Only WC doesn't want to belong to the TCMA main stream?

((Belong? To what? Who is defining TCMA mainstream... You??))

Instead of join in the discussion of "Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?", WC guys prefer to have their own "No Ground Fighting in Wing Chun!!!". :confused:
((You are selecting some folks' comment to generalize about everyone or the art- a fallacy!!))

What's your opinion on this?

((In addition to bracketed comments above--
1.TCMA has may styles, concepts and diversities and differences in concepts, stances, motions, techniques, strategies and -the more one generalizes the more superficial analysis can result and already has.

2.Sure wing chun was mainly made well known by the work of Ip man. It has spread badly and unevenly.Ip man was selective about who he taught well. But many saw enough strength in wing chun they became attached to it and began to teach it without learning the art well. The quality of wing chun has been submerged by it's quantity and careless dilution... and opportunistic marketing oriented variations showing up from time to time. Much discussion of wing chun on this forum and some others are basically by mma wannbees, and many quasi-mma folks and some dogmatists.

3. Yes SC survived via Deng and others in Taiwan, yes, good taiji survived in Chen village-- but Mao's revolution and his opinion on old kung fu being feudal, suppression of old kung fu, , creation of modern wushu and the work of the red guards devastated much of TCMA..many surviviors of wc clf, southern mantis etc ended up in Hong Kong.

4. Post Mao- dvelopment of sanda is an attempt to make mainland kung fu serious- but the humpty dumpty of old TCMA is not quite restored after Mao, the cultural revolution and the red guards..

5. It's a complex story- everyone has "opinions"- but asking for a opinions is not analysis..
and bashing wing chun in this thread so far have elements of cheap shots. Good wing chun instruction here and there in Hong Kong, parts of US. some in Oz, some in Europe still survives..
the good teachers don't rattle on and on in forums. some of the most frequent posters on wing chun appear to know very little wing chun .

6. wing chun is not alone in having quality control problems.You have to search for good things anyway in any activity. Opinions are dime a dozen.

joy chaudhuri

[Robinhood]

Like the post above, two arms two legs, nothing new, styles are styles are just training aids, the better you get, the more efficient your movements, the less you move, it looks different depending on your level, so as you progress you should not look like the beginner, so at different levels all movements will look different depending on the level of the person executing the interaction.

Most people only comparing beginning learning movement.

[Howard]

((In addition to bracketed comments above--

3. Yes SC survived via Deng and others in Taiwan, yes, good taiji survived in Chen village-- but Mao's revolution and his opinion on old kung fu being feudal, suppression of old kung fu, , creation of modern wushu and the work of the red guards devastated much of TCMA..many surviviors of wc clf, southern mantis etc ended up in Hong Kong.

4. Post Mao- dvelopment of sanda is an attempt to make mainland kung fu serious- but the humpty dumpty of old TCMA is not quite restored after Mao, the cultural revolution ...


Oh please kindly do not be so blind sided regarding China , it is a big place with a deep history with embedded culture, the short time of the cultural revolution did not do as much damage as proclaimed by the story tellers outside who had to claim their knowledge greater than where their arts originate !

A more real issue in China and beyond is modern age lack of purpose, with focus on ego competitive and reward factors that skewed the interests of potential practioners towards the showmanship or competitive combat sport angle, same impact happened to judo, tkd, karate, wrestling, mma and all the rest....which have become focused subsets of a root tradition rather than evolutionary improvement.

Further the movies of HK and the make believe of the unqualified outside have made just as bad an impact on the quality of TCMA, which I do agree is an issue across most styles not just WC.

[Dragonzbane76]

Instead of join in the discussion of "Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?", WC guys prefer to have their own "No Ground Fighting in Wing Chun!!!".

maybe they just like arguing with themselves. they never seem to have "enough" politics in the WC branch. :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

maybe they just like arguing with themselves. they never seem to have "enough" politics in the WC branch. :rolleyes:
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Much truth to that.

joy chaudhuri

[RWilson]

Joy?

You have no real skills outside of chi Sao...but your tone is that of an expert. They call that a paradox

[bawang]

wing chun is made up bullsh1t.

[YouKnowWho]

6. wing chun is not alone in having quality control problems.
Why the "quality control" should be any issue?

Most WC guys in US come from Ip man system (myself included). This is the same situation as most SC guys in US come from GM Chang. Old Chinese saying said, "Dragon has 9 sons, they all look different. One of it's sons is a turtle." To have some difference is a good thing.

- One of my senior SC brothers had changed "hip throw" into "waist lift".
- Another senior SC brothers of mine had integrated Judo ground game into SC.

There were not a single SC guy in US ever criticized their changing and integration. If a WC guy changes Tan Shou into upper cut, it will be a good thing. Other WC brothers should all support him instead of trying to have "quality control". A WC brother should support another WC brother. That's all I'm trying to say here.

The only way that you can achieve "quality control" is through the association certificate. Again, if people don't care about your certificate, there will be nothing that you can do about it.

[Vajramusti]

Joy?

You have no real skills outside of chi Sao...but your tone is that of an expert. They call that a paradox
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That is being personal- no paradox- you don;t know me.

[Robinhood]

If the movement is in the WC sets, its WC. The movement does not have to be a single simple move, but can be a combination of small pieces from the sets in any order you want. Just like letters are used from the alphabet.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1142800]Many people love to say, "This is not WC ...".

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Take that up with whoever you are quoting. Why troll here on a general forum. As far as I can tell
you have dabbled a bit in wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

wing chun is made up bullsh1t.
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The not uncommon bawang talk or bs.

[YouKnowWho]

Why troll here on a general forum. As far as I can tell you have dabbled a bit in wing chun. joy chaudhuri
I had asked my question, "Why did our WC brother not willing to support another WC brother?" My question was ignored in the WC forum.

What's wrong with talking about WC in general forum instead of WC forum? I prefer to discuss "kicking" in general forum than in "The Eight Kicks of Wing Chun" thread.

I won't even bother to start this thread if I don't train WC. Since I train WC too, I just don't understand why some WC guys just want to isolate themselves in their own WC forum and not willing to exchange TCMA opinions with people from other styles.

It may be individual decision but it won't hurt to discuss the reasons here.

[Vajramusti]

What's wrong with talking about WC in general forum instead of WC forum? I prefer to discuss "kicking" in general forum than in "The Eight Kicks of Wing Chun" thread.

Since I train WC too (I won't even bother to start this thread if I don't train WC). I just don't understand why some WC guys just want to isolate themselves in their own WC forum and not willing to exchange TCMA opinions with people from other styles.
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I could be wrong but I don't recall you having an impressive wc background. Nor is it evident in your wc posts. Apart from sc- you appear to have a fairly generalized TCMA perspective which is your synthesis for yourself perhaps. Nothing wrong in making your own synthesis under some general label...you know who's personal art.

I ma interested in TCMA--asa wc observer... and not ina dogma spouting way.

[YouKnowWho]

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I could be wrong but I don't recall you having an impressive wc background. Nor is it evident in your wc posts.

Please allow me to borrow your own words to answer your question here.


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That is being personal- no paradox- you don't know me.

[Drake]

I see we're not missing much over at the WC forums.

And what's with the "----------"? Is this a telegraph or something?

[Vajramusti]

Please allow me to borrow your own words to answer your question here.
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Not completely personal... I am not speaking of your personal skills-it's about depth of knowledge of a specific ma-why not describe your wc background-- who have you "studied" wc with-- how long - how often? That could strengthen the basis for your comments.

Given this thread- must be slow time on the forum.

[YouKnowWho]

why not describe your wc background-- who have you "studied" wc with-- how long - how often? That could strengthen the basis for your comments.

I had mentioned this in this forum more than once. Back in 1972 when I was in UT Austin, There were 3 Ip man students (Jerrery Lau, Andy Lau, can't remember the 3rd name) also attended UT at that time. I had sparred with one of them and that got me interested in the system. I was the 1st person who had WC wooden dummy in Austin, Texas back then (I spent $500 and made it of a telephone pole). Oneday I was fixing the roof leak, I heard my window crashed, Someone broke into my school and kneed down infront of my WC wooden dummy in my school training hall. Before the police took him away, he said that he felt he always belong to my school. He though my wooden dummy was a kind of ancient God that I worshipped (The Austin mental hospital was within 300 yards distance from my school). WC was one of my cross training systems. How much time did I put into it? I truly can't remember it now.

[Vajramusti]

I had mentioned this in this forum more than once. Back in 1972 when I was in UT Austin, There were 3 Ip man students (Jerrery Lau, Andy Lau, can't remember the 3rd name) also attended UT at that time. I had sparred with one of them and that got me interested in the system. I was the 1st person who had WC wooden dummy in Austin, Texas back then (I spent $500 and made it of a telephone pole). Oneday I was fixing the roof leak, I heard my window crashed, Someone broke into my school and kneed down infront of my WC wooden dummy in my school training hall. Before the police took him away, he said that he felt he always belong to my school. He though my wooden dummy was a kind of ancient God that I worshipped (The Austin mental hospital was within 300 yards distance from my school). WC was one of my cross training systems. How much time did I put into it? I truly can't remember it now.
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Thank you for honestly giving your wing chun background. Frankly- there is not enough there to be
comparing wing chun with all other systems on a general forum...though you may have learned some things for your own personal development. I enjoy your sc comments more.Good wishes.

[RWilson]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1142800]Many people love to say, "This is not WC ...".

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Take that up with whoever you are quoting. Why troll here on a general forum. As far as I can tell
you have dabbled a bit in wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

You wc people play your rolly arm, ready set go, hit me garbage and think you have skills? Rolly arm chi Sao none sense is all you are good at. Take yourself out of that range and you look like bad boxers.

[PalmStriker]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1142853]

You wc people play your rolly arm, ready set go, hit me garbage and think you have skills? Rolly arm chi Sao none sense is all you are good at. Take yourself out of that range and you look like bad boxers.
Say, aren't you the trollyboy from the other kungfu forum? :confused:

[RenDaHai]

3. Yes SC survived via Deng and others in Taiwan, yes, good taiji survived in Chen village-- but Mao's revolution and his opinion on old kung fu being feudal, suppression of old kung fu, , creation of modern wushu and the work of the red guards devastated much of TCMA..many surviviors of wc clf, southern mantis etc ended up in Hong Kong.

4. Post Mao- dvelopment of sanda is an attempt to make mainland kung fu serious- but the humpty dumpty of old TCMA is not quite restored after Mao, the cultural revolution and the red guards..


Hehe, This myth still persists huh? It is absolutely untrue. The truth is hong kong is a small pond of wushu compared to the ocean in the mainland, they just put about this myth to make themsleves sound like they have the best of all china. My Master is 90 years old and learned Kung fu in the 1930's. Practical Wushu was banned between 1949 and 1972, but thats only 23 years... Nothing was lost. Although there are few of those old masters around today, back in 1972 there were many of them.




Ever seen in strange religious communities who all stick together and intermarry, all the people start looking like mutants as the gene pool is too small? I think this is kind of whats happened to WC since so much is from Yip Mans lineage and so many people practice it. It no longer looks like Shaolin. Anyone seen 'Gulao Yong Chun'? That looks a bit more like it.

[diego]

I had asked my question, "Why did our WC brother not willing to support another WC brother?" My question was ignored in the WC forum.

What's wrong with talking about WC in general forum instead of WC forum? I prefer to discuss "kicking" in general forum than in "The Eight Kicks of Wing Chun" thread.

I won't even bother to start this thread if I don't train WC. Since I train WC too, I just don't understand why some WC guys just want to isolate themselves in their own WC forum and not willing to exchange TCMA opinions with people from other styles.

It may be individual decision but it won't hurt to discuss the reasons here.

I'm pretty sure Ip Man realized with his small frame it's best to use dim mak, butterfly swords and a long pole against some one like Hulk Hogan or a pro Sumo-guy... it's not rocket science if ur holding two butterfly swords you can't grapple...if ur holding a long pole you can't kick too high etc the small frame is the only thing that works for small guys...when Ip Man fought pygmies and midgets he did **** like judo and hung ga swing punches on the brats lol like bruce chucking the karate guys all over.

[Minghequan]

wing chun is made up bullsh1t.

Why do you think this Bawang?

[RWilson]

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I could be wrong but I don't recall you having an impressive wc background. Nor is it evident in your wc posts. Apart from sc- you appear to have a fairly generalized TCMA perspective which is your synthesis for yourself perhaps. Nothing wrong in making your own synthesis under some general label...you know who's personal art.

I ma interested in TCMA--asa wc observer... and not ina dogma spouting way.

You do not need an extensive background in anything to comment. Just look up wc on YouTube. Then look up sc on YouTube. SC training will make you strong and be able to kick a$$ because you are learning how to wrestle. Chi Sao is fake wanna be Wrestlkng that does not accomplish any goal accept to keep people in their safe comfort zones.

Joy,
Little old Yip Man never needed to worry about bigger people because he would use Chinese mind voo doo to trick challengers and students into chi saoing with him instead of actually trying to hurt him. Using the wc rolling platform allows you an easier time to deal with incoming force becaUse force can only be directed in certain ways.

You always talk about how much crap wc there is on YouTube. Put up clips of the real wc. Actually, for anyone complaining of crap on YouTube put up the real deal or shut it. "I know there is crappy Kung ffu video representation, and I know the real deal, but I will not put up the secret stuff either"


Why? Because it is bullsh!t.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=RWilson;1142925]You do not need an extensive background in anything to comment. Just look up wc on YouTube. Then look up sc on YouTube. SC training will make you strong and be able to kick a$$ because you are learning how to wrestle. Chi Sao is fake wanna be Wrestlkng that does not accomplish any goal accept to keep people in their safe comfort zones.

Joy,
Little old Yip Man never needed to worry about bigger people because he would use Chinese mind voo doo to trick challengers and students into chi saoing with him instead of actually trying to hurt him. Using the wc rolling platform allows you an easier time to deal with incoming force becaUse force can only be directed in certain ways.

You always talk about how much crap wc there is on YouTube. Put up clips of the real wc. Actually, for anyone complaining of crap on YouTube put up the real deal or shut it. "I know there is crappy Kung ffu video representation, and I know the real deal, but I will not put up the secret stuff either"
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You are welcome to your views and your story.

[Vajramusti]

You do not need an extensive background in anything to comment. Just look up wc on YouTube. Then look up sc on YouTube. SC training will make you strong and be able to kick a$$ because you are learning how to wrestle. Chi Sao is fake wanna be Wrestlkng that does not accomplish any goal accept to keep people in their safe comfort zones.

Joy,
Little old Yip Man never needed to worry about bigger people because he would use Chinese mind voo doo to trick challengers and students into chi saoing with him instead of actually trying to hurt him. Using the wc rolling platform allows you an easier time to deal with incoming force becaUse force can only be directed in certain ways.

You always talk about how much crap wc there is on YouTube. Put up clips of the real wc. Actually, for anyone complaining of crap on YouTube put up the real deal or shut it. "I know there is crappy Kung ffu video representation, and I know the real deal, but I will not put up the secret stuff either"


Why? Because it is bullsh!t.
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you are welcome to your pronouncements!!

[RWilson]

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you are welcome to your pronouncements!!

I do not need you to tell me that it is ok to have my own views but thanks anyway.

If you really really had the real deal wc you would have a video of yourself against someone actually trying to hit you in sparring.

You are more of a historian than anything. You like to propagate that what you and your club do is hardcore real wc but...you have no arguments to prove it.

"Different chi saos teach you how to fight.". You make comments like this but the truth is is that chi Sao is just a drill meant to be forgotten.

[Phil Redmond]

I do not need you to tell me that it is ok to have my own views but thanks anyway.

If you really really had the real deal wc you would have a video of yourself against someone actually trying to hit you in sparring.

You are more of a historian than anything. You like to propagate that what you and your club do is hardcore real wc but...you have no arguments to prove it.

"Different chi saos teach you how to fight.". You make comments like this but the truth is is that chi Sao is just a drill meant to be forgotten.
Joy is an older gentleman. He has boxing experience for what I remember but he's not going to be competing just like no former fighter won't be competing after a certain age. No, there won't be vids of Joy because everyone didn't have video camera like they do know. There are no vids of my fights either for the same reason. But if you're ever in NYC we DO have Wing Chun fighters that love mixing it up full contact. If you're ever willing to compete in one of our events please contact me at:
sifu@wckwoon.com Also, I have clips of some of our WC fighters on my two youtube channels.
http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr
http://www.youtube.com/user/wckwoon

[bawang]

the wing chun mindset is that the outsider is not fully human, is inferior. if you dont train wing chun you are missing something, you dont "understand".

[Phil Redmond]

the wing chun mindset is that the outsider is not fully human, is inferior. if you dont train wing chun you are missing something, you dont "understand".
That's too funny. Any martial artist that thinks he/she has the "holy grail" to martial arts is delusional. You've been talking to the wrong WC guys. I never think that way.

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a little history on Joy:
http://www.tempewingchun.com/teaching.html
I was right about his boxing skills.

[EarthDragon]

RWilson , why may i ask are you always so bitter towards others? I find your posts usually negiative and sarcastic towards people , just curious with 81 posts here your reasoning for not contributing positivilty?

QUOTE]I do not need you to tell me that it is ok to have my own views but thanks anyway.[/QUOTE]



"Different chi saos teach you how to fight.". You make comments like this but the truth is is that chi Sao is just a drill meant to be forgotten.

What drills that you learn should be forgotten? NONE, IMHO use them for what they are or do to help you, but I would not ever imply that listening or sticking should ever be forgotten, on the contrary listeing skills on a touching level i.e phsyical are some the highest skills set to have, if you can move with instinct from feeling or "YI" instead of reacting to the reaction you are far higher level martail artist.

[Phil Redmond]

RWilson , why may i ask are you always so bitter towards others? I find your posts usually negiative and sarcastic towards people , just curious with 81 posts here your reasoning for not contributing positivilty? . . .
And of course he does it anonymously. ;)

[fan]

Practical Wushu was banned between 1949 and 1972.

rendahai, interesting factoid. had always thought the greatest period of martial arts suppression in china was during the cultural revolution from 1966 to 1976. why particularly the period 1949 to 1972? (just know 1949 was the start of the people's republic)

[RWilson]

Joy is an older gentleman. He has boxing experience for what I remember but he's not going to be competing just like no former fighter won't be competing after a certain age. No, there won't be vids of Joy because everyone didn't have video camera like they do know. There are no vids of my fights either for the same reason. But if you're ever in NYC we DO have Wing Chun fighters that love mixing it up full contact. If you're ever willing to compete in one of our events please contact me at:
sifu@wckwoon.com Also, I have clips of some of our WC fighters on my two youtube channels.
http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr
http://www.youtube.com/user/wckwoon

I know he is an old guy. I am not asking to see his fights. Any time someone says something bad about wc like youknowwho did, he tries to discredit them by saying they do not have the experience to have an opinion. He has been doing wc for ljng enough to know the real deal right? Is chi Sao the real deal wc training? Does he have any proof that his opinion is any better than ykw?

[Robinhood]

All things are just tools you use to develop yourself, don't dwell on the tools, just like you would not honor the tools you used to build a house, or the boat to cross the river.

[Vajramusti]

Here's a little history on Joy:
http://www.tempewingchun.com/teaching.html
I was right about his boxing skills.-
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Phil--my posts are not about me. But- not just boxing, I have fought on the street in two countries-
and defended myself in violent riots in one of them. And, I don't just do chi sao-though chi sao is
a very important part of wc training- when done well, And wing chun has helped me in dangerous
situations all the way. I do not look down on other martial arts-I have taken instruction in several others. I am interested in martial motion and sports- have a long time interest in martial motion.
But in my evolution wing chun became my main art and it provides a looking glass for me to see
what else is going on in martial arts or sports- anywhere.

Wing chun is quite anti-intuitive and there is no substitute for good instruction.It's not JKD or JKD-ish

I am not a regular in the general forum and the wing chun forum is loaded with non- wing chun folks
but I drop in on discussions from time to time. I posted on this thread because there seemed to be some uninformed wing chun bashing, As for R Wilson and some other uncivil comments-as a wing chun person I don;t chase hands or them!! I am not in their line of attack- so why bother.
I think that if we discuss rather than just be attack oriented we learn more.

BTW- the flight of some good kung fu people on the mainland began even before the Cultural revolution...because some of them were branded as Kuomintang folks. Ip man for instance when he escaped to Macao was one step ahead of administrators of the new regime in China
and their reps in Fatshan.
Sure China is a huge country- but it's repressions were huge as well. Without Ip Man's journey- there is a good chance that other forms of wing chun would have disappeared from public attention.So cheers and bye for now.

joy chaudhuri

[EarthDragon]

shifu Phil,
and of course he does it anonymously.

one would be folish to expect anything else>



All things are just tools you use to develop yourself, don't dwell on the tools, just like you would not honor the tools you used to build a house, or the boat to cross the river.

depends on who you ask? someimes a tool is the way to eat, feed yourself, cloth yoursefl etc etc. why no honnor them and the use they provide you?

[Yoshiyahu]

Forget about WC just practice my new art i created...

ChainPunchFace Violently!!!

[WhiteTiger666]

In my opinion WC is an excellent style when done correctly and taught correctly but like any style also has some limitations as well.

In order to be a true MA one must learn all styles and then go beyond them.
then one realizes where they came from and how we got here to begin with and that is all by imagination. These concepts have been around for eons and were passed down to us through our ancient ancestors who was ( and still are) fierce fighters. It all has to do with spirit.

I think any style can benefit from learning from others and absorbing what is useful
as our old friend Bruce Lee taught us.

RIP BRUCE and YIP MAN.

Jah Guide

[WC1277]

Why the "quality control" should be any issue?

Most WC guys in US come from Ip man system (myself included). This is the same situation as most SC guys in US come from GM Chang. Old Chinese saying said, "Dragon has 9 sons, they all look different. One of it's sons is a turtle." To have some difference is a good thing.

- One of my senior SC brothers had changed "hip throw" into "waist lift".
- Another senior SC brothers of mine had integrated Judo ground game into SC.

There were not a single SC guy in US ever criticized their changing and integration. If a WC guy changes Tan Shou into upper cut, it will be a good thing. Other WC brothers should all support him instead of trying to have "quality control". A WC brother should support another WC brother. That's all I'm trying to say here.

The only way that you can achieve "quality control" is through the association certificate. Again, if people don't care about your certificate, there will be nothing that you can do about it.

Quality control should always be an issue when dealing with WC. One could say the system is completely based off of quality control. WC is nothing more than a much discerned collection of 'universal truths' in regards to force and the human body. If anything is more subliminally connected to the art of WC, it is such that we 'do' only have two arms and two legs. Every martial art has slices of the truth and one would be ignorant not to recognize that, but one would also be ignorant not to recognize that WC evolved, and continues today in the hands of the right people, to scrap away the add-ons over time in the pursuit of universal truth, and to return to the basics of human physiology. There's a reason WC is often called the 'thinking man's art'. What's simple is true, yet as humans we over complicate everything to the point where the original meaning or purpose gets lost. It's not a phenomenon that's unique to WC but that of human history and evolution itself. One only needs to look as far as our collection of religions to see the trap of our own humanity. If anyone knows anything about 'game theory' here, one knows that we are, as humans, the ultimate hypocrites of our own existence. WC, correct WC, is the antithesis pursuit of that downfall.

[YouKnowWho]

Quality control should always be an issue when dealing with WC.

You may think that "world peace" and "new world order" are also your responsibility too. Why can't we just worry about ourselves and leave others along?

[WC1277]

You may think that "world peace" and "new world order" are also your responsibility too. Why can't we just worry about ourselves and leave others along?

I'm not condoning instituting a sort of Kung Fu dogma on others. I'm merely saying, that without that pursuit and mindfulness of what WC really is and how it evolved, one will only turn it into a "dogma of technique". The few really profound WC guys that I have had the privilege to meet have all emphasized technique as merely a path and not a be all, end all. There's a saying that if you see the Buddha on your way to enlightenment, kill him. Good discerning WC will help you, the individual, find your own physiological truth but to be slave to the path that got you there will ultimately be your demise. WC, to the observer, appears to be a collection of techniques, but to the wise it is merely a collection of principals. My truth is not yours and neither is Fong Sifu's mine. The path to enlightenment has always been personal but the path to wisdom has always been collective.

[nasmedicine]

Hehe,

That's a keen observation.

Wing Chun is really strange because it is practised far more in the west than it is in China.

If you analyse many Kung Fu styles like Mantis, Shaolin, Taiji, Xingyi, Baji, ZhaQuan, PaoQuan, Hua quan etc. You'll find they contain largely the same techniques used in a similar way even with the same technique name. Even in the south a lot of the same techniques are used.

But Wing Chun is different. Why? I believe because its recent evolution has occured outside of China, largely away from the community of Wushu. Even in Hong Kong it is somewhat isolated, but it is practised so much in the west that it has evolved into a new style and people who practice it are so closed minded about its 'correct' use of technique. Also because the vast majority has been passed down through 1 lineage.

I agree to some degree on the point you are trying to make. Especially the comment on narrow mindedness of certain groups who practice a their respective renditions of wing chun.

[dirtyrat]

The few really profound WC guys that I have had the privilege to meet have all emphasized technique as merely a path and not a be all, end all..

its interesting to note that in a 1995 IKF interview, Duncan Leung stated that Ip Man "defended his rice bowl" by withholding things from most students so they don't open schools of their own and offer him compeittion, unless you could afford to pay him for private sessions (even if you could afford it, i wonder how much more he would teach given if its a fact that he had a "rice bowl" mentality)

if the above is true, i wonder how straight "the path" really is....;)

[YouKnowWho]

WC, to the observer, appears to be a collection of techniques, but to the wise it is merely a collection of principals.
All TCMA systems meet that requirement.

- Taiji has 13 principles.
- Zimen has 18 principle.
- Mantis has 20 principles.
- Longfist has 8 principles.
- SC has 60 principles.
- ...

Any principle can be mapped into multiple techniques.

[WC1277]

its interesting to note that in a 1995 IKF interview, Duncan Leung stated that Ip Man "defended his rice bowl" by withholding things from most students so they don't open schools of their own and offer him compeittion, unless you could afford to pay him for private sessions (even if you could afford it, i wonder how much more he would teach given if its a fact that he had a "rice bowl" mentality)

if the above is true, i wonder how straight "the path" really is....;)

There's a saying about "God" in the writings of what one would call 'spiritual writings'. I.e. bible, Tao te Ching, etc... But I think it is really universal in a respect. It goes "Words neither hide nor reveal, but only indicate." WC is the pursuit of that mentality at its core. To miss that is to become a slave to doctrine or "technique". A universal truth is that which is found amongst all ways of perception and experience. If spiritual words are the indication of God, then technique in WC is the indication of your true potential physiologically....

[dirtyrat]

If spiritual words are the indication of God, then technique in WC is the indication of your true potential physiologically....

and if the technique was not taught or pass on as it should've been, then would not one be led astray? providing of course one sees WC as a vehicle for spiritual growth to begin with.

[WC1277]

and if the technique was not taught or pass on as it should've been, then would not one be led astray? providing of course one sees WC as a vehicle for spiritual growth to begin with.

Yes, one would be led astray. Mankind inherently convolutes just about anything you give them. The path is narrow but not in the way that one would think looking at it externally. Ip Man didn't withhold anything from anyone as popular theory says. This is attested to by many of his students. I would tend to be skeptical of the students who say he did looking at it logically. The ones who have "it" right now are the ones who understood meaning behind the technique. For example, Fong Sifu recently illustrated a concept about the correct tension with regards to your triangle and being center. If you take an object and balance it on your extended index finger you are center, right? You're using no muscle other than whatever it takes to hold your finger up. Now if you're off center, what happens? You must use your other fingers to hold the object up with weight distributing unevenly. You are now using muscle. This is a universal truth. Now many take the concept of center and focus on the "centerline" thinking that it's as simple as "aiming" towards the center. While this is true, it is only a slice of the truth and not universal in and of itself. You can be turned off center and still have the center. How? The same way you hold up that object. Your natural tension is connected to the opponents center of gravity. Finding center is not a result of your arms facing center. Finding center is where your body, any part of your body, connects to their center of gravity. What must happen for one to connect to another's center of gravity? You must have your own center of gravity. These are universal. In fact this is actually the true point and principle of the wooden dummy. So while the technique is geared to maximizing that universal truth, it is not the technique that dictates it. The point is, if one doesn't understand the nuances and the point of what they're doing then they are led astray. That is up to the individual. The "truth" of WC will always flourish regardless of ones understanding because it is universal. But the ability to harness those truths will only lie in those who do.

[WC1277]

To further illustrate the above point about center of gravity and another misinformed perception. Most often one thinks that the point is to knock the person off balance therefor allowing you to hit him. Once again that perception couldn't be further from the truth. In fact "sticking" means the exact opposite. By connecting to the persons center you are essentially setting himself up to be hit. When something is balanced upon another object, if that object moves it falls. Another universal truth. The same when you find the center of your opponent. This is what Ip Man meant by the opponent will show you how to hit him. When the opponent "falls" he is inherently vulnerable in both timing and balance. It's a subtle difference but makes it either universal or not universal. You don't knock your opponent off balance in WC. You just maintain the center and he will lose his own balance. That is universal. One will see from this illustration that there is much more to WC and centerline concept. Centerline is merely an apex of the center. What point of the body that connects to that apex is less relevant than people think.

[YouKnowWho]

when you find the center of your opponent.

This is a general TCMA principle. The southern styles call this "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse". The nothern styles call this "欺(Qi) - Take unfair advantage of". I prefer to call this, "run your opponent down."

[WC1277]

This is a general TCMA principle. The southern styles call this "入馬(Ru Ma) - enter horse". The nothern styles call this "欺(Qi) - Take unfair advantage of". I prefer to call this, "run your opponent down."

All I can say to that is that you obviously misunderstood the example given and it's implications.

[YouKnowWho]

All I can say to that is that you obviously misunderstood the example given and it's implications.

I thought we are talking about "take your opponent's center". Are we not? I assume that we are talking about "principle" and not "technique" here.

[WC1277]

I thought we are talking about "take your opponent's center". Are we not? We are talking about "principle" and not "technique" here.

I don't mean pushing through your opponents center. I mean making it so your opponent leans on you. That's how he falls without muscle on your part.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't mean pushing through your opponents center. I mean making it so your opponent leans on you. That's how he falls without muscle on your part.

The problem is when your opponent leans on you, his body and your body are combined as one single unit. Your center will become his center, your rooting will become his rooting. Why do you want to do that for?

[dirtyrat]

Ip Man didn't withhold anything from anyone as popular theory says. This is attested to by many of his students. I would tend to be skeptical of the students who say he did looking at it logically. The ones who have "it" right now are the ones who understood meaning behind the technique.
.

i think he did withhold things. which is why many WC practitioners have such a hard time making it work and why they argue religiously on internet forums.

[YouKnowWho]

i think he did withhold things. which is why many WC practitioners have such a hard time making it work and why they argue religiously on internet forums.

All TCMA teachers withheld information. It's your responsibility to dig it out. I had to travel to China many times to visit my teacher's brother in order to have complete picture on certain area.

[k gledhill]

i think he did withhold things. which is why many WC practitioners have such a hard time making it work and why they argue religiously on internet forums.

Many didnt understand....;)

[WC1277]

The problem is when your opponent leans on you, his body and your body are combined as one single unit. Your center will become his center, your rooting will become his rooting. Why do you want to do that for?

Because he can't move without falling if you stay connected to center. You're looking at it superficially. You have to think of it in the same way as the example I gave holding the object. Chi Sao is the epidemy of this concept. Those who actually look at it as a drill and not fighting should realize that the start and end of every roll is zero point. The one who gets hit is the one who loses their "balance" or their center. Has very little to do with centerline if one doesn't rely on technique alone. Has everything to do with the centerline if one does rely on technique alone.

[Vajramusti]

i think he did withhold things. which is why many WC practitioners have such a hard time making it work and why they argue religiously on internet forums.
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In large classes a professor can without grade inflation end up at the end of the semester with classic bell curves in student achievement- having A students (10% or less), B students, C students(40%) and D and E/F students= 30%.

Unfortunately in kung fu...C, D and F students can go around saying I learned from the great....
and go out and teach!!

[Ozzy Dave]

All TCMA teachers withheld information. It's your responsibility to dig it out.

I totally agree with this, I always think of the phrase "Shifu gives you one corner of the table you have to find the other three"

Overall, I think it's fair to say Wing Chun is a specialised system, the tactics of which employ predominantly striking responses to combative engagements.

Many practitioners in fact pride themselves on streamlining their responses along the maxim "Simple, Direct and Efficient".

However, I think the question should be asked when does this approach stop producing meaningful results i.e. when does your strength, pursued exclusively, become your weakness?

Dave

[Hendrik]

Hehe,

That's a keen observation.

Wing Chun is really strange because it is practised far more in the west than it is in China.

If you analyse many Kung Fu styles like Mantis, Shaolin, Taiji, Xingyi, Baji, ZhaQuan, PaoQuan, Hua quan etc. You'll find they contain largely the same techniques used in a similar way even with the same technique name. Even in the south a lot of the same techniques are used.

But Wing Chun is different. Why? I believe because its recent evolution has occured outside of China, largely away from the community of Wushu. Even in Hong Kong it is somewhat isolated, but it is practised so much in the west that it has evolved into a new style and people who practice it are so closed minded about its 'correct' use of technique. Also because the vast majority has been passed down through 1 lineage.




1, it is not strange at all with what happen with WCK prationers in fact. it related to the history of China.

2, WCK is totally develop in China with strong sources or trackable mother arts.

[dirtyrat]

All TCMA teachers withheld information. It's your responsibility to dig it out. I had to travel to China many times to visit my teacher's brother in order to have complete picture on certain area.

yeah, i had to learn that the hard way. but it did make learn how to think for myself.

[dirtyrat]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In large classes a professor can without grade inflation end up at the end of the semester with classic bell curves in student achievement- having A students (10% or less), B students, C students(40%) and D and E/F students= 30%.

Unfortunately in kung fu...C, D and F students can go around saying I learned from the great....
and go out and teach!!

point taken

[YouKnowWho]

The "truth" of WC will always flourish regardless of ones understanding because it is universal. But the ability to harness those truths will only lie in those who do.
Will you be able to apply this to all TCMA styles? What's so special about WC here? Any TCMA system can help you to reach to your "spiritual" world if that's where you wat to go. Styles such as Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Zimen, ... are much more "spiritual" than WC. I'm not sure that's a good thing though.

[WC1277]

Will you be able to apply this to all TCMA styles? What's so special about WC here? Any TCMA system can help you to reach to your "spiritual" world if that's where you wat to go. Styles such as Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Zimen, ... are much more "spiritual" than WC. I'm not sure that's a good thing though.

Where did you get spiritual from a "universal truth"?

[CFT]

Sure China is a huge country- but it's repressions were huge as well. Without Ip Man's journey- there is a good chance that other forms of wing chun would have disappeared from public attention.I wonder what you mean by this Joy? The infamy of Wing Chun is almost entirely down to Bruce Lee. Without Yip Man, Wing Chun would still survive to this day. Gulao, YKS/Sum Nung, and any number of mainland lineages bear this out.

[Vajramusti]

I wonder what you mean by this Joy? The infamy of Wing Chun is almost entirely down to Bruce Lee. Without Yip Man, Wing Chun would still survive to this day. Gulao, YKS/Sum Nung, and any number of mainland lineages bear this out.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Che- a bit on the run--- but hopefully a brief but clear answer,
1. Agree with BL and infamy comment I didn't learn because of BL.

2. Without IM's move to Macao and then HK- we would have been left with the people he worked with to keep his own timing.There would not have been WSL, HKM etc.

3. Gulao and YKS wc would possibly have had little attention outside of gulao and SN's home school without IM wing chun and be limited to much fewer people. Nothing wrong with that.But would have been quite local most likely. Combination of the cumulative effect of the work of good teachers and competent students who practice hard are important in any kung fu

4. Wing chun has spread rather badly. Wish it would shrink some rather than spread and get rid of some of the junk that has accumulated by just using the name..

4. Sheer luck that I ran into the version of wing chun that I did. Personal preference- even if I knew about gulao and yks before finding a good version of IM-I would not have done them.
Would have done chen taiji and keep up with fist/leg work and some judo. But Chen did not come west till the 80s. Would have only my own mix to go on and missed out on the work of other great teachers.

Have to go to work out!! I responded just to your comment without trying to flame any one
or engage in net jabberwocky.No time to spell check.

Best wishes, Joy

PS: Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight/defend. I just think that it is a great way if learned properly...it's so "natural" obce you get the hang of it.

[Vajramusti]

Will you be able to apply this to all TCMA styles? What's so special about WC here? Any TCMA system can help you to reach to your "spiritual" world if that's where you wat to go. Styles such as Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Zimen, ... are much more "spiritual" than WC. I'm not sure that's a good thing though.
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What!! WC was not talking about any spiritual world. you keep making general comparative statements about TCMA. One has to know each style in considerable depth to generalize..

[YouKnowWho]

--------------------------------------------------------

What!! WC was not talking about any spiritual world. you keep making general comparative statements about TCMA. One has to know each style in considerable depth to generalize..


Where did you get spiritual from a "universal truth"?

A: I want to apply social welfare.
B: Please provide your financial status.
A: I have $580,000 in saving, 20,000 share IBM stock, and ...
B: You must be joking.
A: But you started it.

WC1277 started it. I didn't.

Those terms such as universal truth, thinking man's art, collection of religions, our own humanity, the ultimate hypocrites of our own existence, ... are all "spiritual" terms to me. When WC1277 mentioned those terms, I had no idea what he was trying to say, I can only associate it to "spiritual". :(


Quality control should always be an issue when dealing with WC. One could say the system is completely based off of quality control. WC is nothing more than a much discerned collection of 'universal truths' in regards to force and the human body. If anything is more subliminally connected to the art of WC, it is such that we 'do' only have two arms and two legs. Every martial art has slices of the truth and one would be ignorant not to recognize that, but one would also be ignorant not to recognize that WC evolved, and continues today in the hands of the right people, to scrap away the add-ons over time in the pursuit of universal truth, and to return to the basics of human physiology. There's a reason WC is often called the 'thinking man's art'. What's simple is true, yet as humans we over complicate everything to the point where the original meaning or purpose gets lost. It's not a phenomenon that's unique to WC but that of human history and evolution itself. One only needs to look as far as our collection of religions to see the trap of our own humanity. If anyone knows anything about 'game theory' here, one knows that we are, as humans, the ultimate hypocrites of our own existence. WC, correct WC, is the antithesis pursuit of that downfall.

[Vajramusti]

A: I want to apply social welfare.
B: Please provide your financial status.
A: I have $580,000 in saving, 20,000 share IBM stock, and ...
B: You must be joking.
A: But you started it.

WC1277 started it. I didn't.

Those terms such as universal truth, thinking man's art, collection of religions, our own humanity, the ultimate hypocrites of our own existence, ... are all "spiritual" terms to me. When WC1277 mentioned those terms, I had no idea what he was trying to say, I can only associate it to "spiritual". :(
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Wrong inference from what he said and meant. Given your sarcasm above- I pass.