Evolution or Something else

[ginosifu]

With the over whelming topics on BJJ and MMA and Ground Grappling, I have wondered:

Is the BJJ / MMA style of Ground Grappling, the evolution of MA or is it something else?

Is it just fighters adapting to the new modern Sports Martial Arts?

Is it just a fad and will come and go with it's popularity?

Is it more like we are DE-Evolving and MA are reverting back to it's rudimentary beginning?

ginosifu

[Drake]

It's filling a training gap, really. It doesn't REPLACE TCMA... it just gives you some skills that were sorely lacking in the styles...

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's filling a training gap, really. It doesn't REPLACE TCMA... it just gives you some skills that were sorely lacking in the styles...

Pretty much but I will add this:
BJJ come from the "old school" judo as was taught by Maeda.
Maeda taught "combat Judo" and his whole philosophy was to take whatever worked and add it to COMPLIMENT Judo ( that is the key word and what ANY TCMA should be doing also).
The Gracies took that and what we had when GJJ was introduced to the world via the UFC ( the MA world has already know about BJJ for decades before that) was the result of decades of MA fighting in "no rules" matches VS every type of system that was willing to fight no rules ( and not many were by the way).
BJJ then adapted and evolved to deal with what MMA became and has now become.
The core is still the same:
Take your base system and adapt what is proven to work and make it COMPLIMENT your core.
It is NOT a fad, it has been the MA way for centuries and will continue to be so.
It is NOT a de-evolotion simplyu because the fighters are better NOW than they were before.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I believe that good martial artists will work on their weaknesses regarding what they and their art lack. It is that simple. In 1993, the world of martial arts got a wake up call. They found out that reverse punches and ridge hands were not enough. They found out high flashy kicks and holding your hands at your waist was not enough. Most importantly, they found if you don't know how to grapple or at least have basic sprawl and position knowledge, anyone with adequate grappling will kick your aszz!!

As I mentioned, the first UFC happened way back in 1993, eighteen years ago. The sport of mixed martial arts has come a long way as have the emergences of grappling tournaments to the mainstream. So it really isn't that hard to figure out, the information is there and has been there for a very long time.

Skills negate skills, and all aspects of fighting should be trained if one is to be a competent fighter. Also, the days of pure anything (striker, grappler) are over, at least for those wanting to be relevant to today's standards.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is just that the grappling arts are making a comeback and are getting their long awaited respect.

mickey

[EarthDragon]

somethign different, how much did we all like watching boxing when we were growing up, man it was the best to watch the fights, then alongh came the UFC now boxing semms boring, UFC is more excting and hitting a different age group, demographic and time.
ground fighting is as old as the dirt, just got boring but the MMA UFC brpought it exctoment, just like anything fashion, style it is all comes in cycles

[PalmStriker]

OP Question: Is it just fighters adapting to the new modern Sports Martial Arts?
ANS: Yes. :)

[PalmStriker]

I believe that good martial artists will work on their weaknesses regarding what they and their art lack. It is that simple. In 1993, the world of martial arts got a wake up call. They found out that reverse punches and ridge hands were not enough. They found out high flashy kicks and holding your hands at your waist was not enough. Most importantly, they found if you don't know how to grapple or at least have basic sprawl and position knowledge, anyone with adequate grappling will kick your aszz!!

As I mentioned, the first UFC happened way back in 1993, eighteen years ago. The sport of mixed martial arts has come a long way as have the emergences of grappling tournaments to the mainstream. So it really isn't that hard to figure out, the information is there and has been there for a very long time.

Skills negate skills, and all aspects of fighting should be trained if one is to be a competent fighter. Also, the days of pure anything (striker, grappler) are over, at least for those wanting to be relevant to today's standards. Does that mean the sport of boxing will cease to exist.? Cringe! :) No more Sumo?

[Eric Olson]

I think it's an adaptation to the local environment. So in that sense, yes, it's evolution.

It's kind of like how modern militaries must learn to fight in cities, so-called 'urban warfare'. This is different than the older style of war where battles were fought by large armies on open ground. It's an adaptation.

EO

[Fa Xing]

now boxing semms boring

I don't think boxing is boring at all.

[EarthDragon]

Fa xing,
compared to MMA I find it limited which inturn to me personally boring. its still kinda fun to watch but I would rather like to see them clinch then throw each other to the ground and throw a kick to the head with a coul of elbows real dirty boxing woukd be a great new fad LOL, but im spolied now

[ginosifu]

Fa xing,
compared to MMA I find it limited which inturn to me personally boring. its still kinda fun to watch but I would rather like to see them clinch then throw each other to the ground and throw a kick to the head with a coul of elbows real dirty boxing woukd be a great new fad LOL, but im spolied now

I find MMA or UFC matches boring. Usually 2 guys laying on top of each other and very little action. Old school kickboxing was more exciting. I don't like a cage or a boxing ring... just ends up that peeps use that as an excuse to clinch and stall.

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

yeah the laying ground game stuff gets boring as well, yuor right, for me the quick action is still the Pancrase stuff, they stand em up whe they lay on top as you say adn dont work.

but UFC is still more exctied than boxing for me pesonally.

its does have all the elements, it will be really kweel, when it evolves to the point where when its close they throw in a weapon to decide the outcome. then we have gladtitor school back!

[David Jamieson]

The ritual and dueling aspect is being removed in favour of bloodsport period.

Dueling always has more interesting techniques in it.
Bloodsport demands brevity in technique.

fwiw I would watch a boxing match before I watched mma.
mma isn't as interesting to me.

[Lucas]

mma is pretty diverse in terms of the over all competitors. I like watching some fights WAY more than others. I like watching mma because I enjoy seeing what each individual has developed in their own game as far as dealing with all ranges of combat.

personally, i'd like to see some boxing matches with 6oz gloves on.

[David Jamieson]

mma is pretty diverse in terms of the over all competitors. I like watching some fights WAY more than others. I like watching mma because I enjoy seeing what each individual has developed in their own game as far as dealing with all ranges of combat.

personally, i'd like to see some boxing matches with 6oz gloves on.

Well, I don't care for 30 second fights that end in a tap. That's crap, that's boring and that's not worth paying money to watch.

Also, fighters tend to stick to their most comfortable range and stay there until the have to do something about it. So, definitely not all mma fighters are well rounded so much as they have been exposed to some stuff and train to it somewhat.

Also, when it's all subfighters on one ticket is as seriously boring to watch.

But boxing? Something is happening all the time in that ring. It really is the sweet science and in my opinion a great sport when it comes to martial arts.

mma is still youngish. It has a way to go.

[Chadderz]

Well, I don't care for 30 second fights that end in a tap. That's crap, that's boring and that's not worth paying money to watch.

Also, fighters tend to stick to their most comfortable range and stay there until the have to do something about it. So, definitely not all mma fighters are well rounded so much as they have been exposed to some stuff and train to it somewhat.

Also, when it's all subfighters on one ticket is as seriously boring to watch.

But boxing? Something is happening all the time in that ring. It really is the sweet science and in my opinion a great sport when it comes to martial arts.

mma is still youngish. It has a way to go.

always find the under card really exciting. The fighters are normally new and young, and itching to prove themselves.

[Lucas]

But boxing? Something is happening all the time in that ring. It really is the sweet science and in my opinion a great sport when it comes to martial arts.

mma is still youngish. It has a way to go.

would you watch boxing matches with 6oz gloves??

[David Jamieson]

would you watch boxing matches with 6oz gloves??

Probably. :)

[omarthefish]

With the over whelming topics on BJJ and MMA and Ground ...Is it more like we are DE-Evolving and MA are reverting back to it's rudimentary beginning?

ginosifu

There's no such thing as "DE-Evolving" or "devolition" or other similar terms. There is only evolution. Reverting back to a more rudimentary form is still evolution.

"devoltion" or "de-evolution" are made up terms that have no real meaning. :mad:

[ginosifu]

There's no such thing as "DE-Evolving" or "devolition" or other similar terms. There is only evolution. Reverting back to a more rudimentary form is still evolution.

"devoltion" or "de-evolution" are made up terms that have no real meaning. :mad:

Whatever ! Reverting back to the cave man time where grappling was just barbaric grabbing of each other on the ground. Or Evolving to the cave man time where grappling was just barbaric grabbing of each other on the ground.

Just trying to say the above. Was not trying to be verbally correct.

ginosifu

[bawang]

y u scared of barbaric grabbling someone?

[omarthefish]

Whatever ! Reverting back to the cave man time where grappling was just barbaric grabbing of each other on the ground. Or Evolving to the cave man time where grappling was just barbaric grabbing of each other on the ground.

Just trying to say the above. Was not trying to be verbally correct.

ginosifu

Yes. I understood what you meant. Just a serious peeve of mine. It's not about semantics to me either though and now that I got the mini-rant out I suppose I shoudl answer more seriously.

Part of the reason it peeves me that people think evolution has a "more" or "less" component actually relates directly to your question:



The BJJ and MMA grappling is an evolution of MA.
People are just adapting to modern fighting situations.
It is just a fad and will come and go with the people that want to use it.


ALL of these are true.

As long as we are not creating exact replica's of our teachers, the art if evolving whether we want it to or not. Of course BJJ and MMA is, at the very least, one result of the way MA has been evolving over the past few decade. The modern fighting situations are just evolutionary pressures and of course, in large part, it IS a fad that will come and go with the people who use it.

I expect I'll catch the most flak on the fad comment so let me elaborate. Simple fact is, virtually no one on this board has any real need for serious martial art skills whatsoever. Sure lots of people like to thump their chests of over who's the baddest (SHO NUF!) but it's complete BS. Other than the odd LEO or active military type on the board, we mostly all just do this because we like it. As such, we are into MMA because it's fashionable. People say we "need" ground work because todays fighters will take you down and make you their biotch. Easy way to avoid that: Don't enter any MMA comps. ;) So like it or not, if not a fad, it's at least a fashion statement.

People are always adapting to fighting situations. BJJ is also popular, in America anyways, because we are a wrestling culture. Non-martial artist who are just fighters have always tended to go for the tackle. When I was a kid I remember being afraid to kick anyone because I'd be labeled a pu$$y and made fun of for fighting like a girl. "Real Men" boxed and wrestled. That's the obvious evolutionary pressure these days: wrestle.

Anyways, currently, in the US, the climate encourages learning BJJ/etc. In China, not so much. MMA is catching on but only as a sport. It's complete irrelevant to self defense. People don't tackle you in China. The team up and hunt you. One guy approaches you from the front to talk while his buddy clubs you over the head from behind with a metal pipe. Sometimes they cruise by you with a motorcycle and hit you with a weapon as they pass by. Lots of stories involve groups of 20 or 30 all armed with sticks and knifes and stuff.

Different environments present different challenges and produce different evolutionary pressures. Yeah, the prominence MMA and BJJ are definitely new developments in the history of MA. It's just different though. Neither better nor worse. The progress is neither forward nor backward.

[Chadderz]

Yes. I understood what you meant. Just a serious peeve of mine. It's not about semantics to me either though and now that I got the mini-rant out I suppose I shoudl answer more seriously.

Part of the reason it peeves me that people think evolution has a "more" or "less" component actually relates directly to your question:



ALL of these are true.

As long as we are not creating exact replica's of our teachers, the art if evolving whether we want it to or not. Of course BJJ and MMA is, at the very least, one result of the way MA has been evolving over the past few decade. The modern fighting situations are just evolutionary pressures and of course, in large part, it IS a fad that will come and go with the people who use it.

I expect I'll catch the most flak on the fad comment so let me elaborate. Simple fact is, virtually no one on this board has any real need for serious martial art skills whatsoever. Sure lots of people like to thump their chests of over who's the baddest (SHO NUF!) but it's complete BS. Other than the odd LEO or active military type on the board, we mostly all just do this because we like it. As such, we are into MMA because it's fashionable. People say we "need" ground work because todays fighters will take you down and make you their biotch. Easy way to avoid that: Don't enter any MMA comps. ;) So like it or not, if not a fad, it's at least a fashion statement.

People are always adapting to fighting situations. BJJ is also popular, in America anyways, because we are a wrestling culture. Non-martial artist who are just fighters have always tended to go for the tackle. When I was a kid I remember being afraid to kick anyone because I'd be labeled a pu$$y and made fun of for fighting like a girl. "Real Men" boxed and wrestled. That's the obvious evolutionary pressure these days: wrestle.

Anyways, currently, in the US, the climate encourages learning BJJ/etc. In China, not so much. MMA is catching on but only as a sport. It's complete irrelevant to self defense. People don't tackle you in China. The team up and hunt you. One guy approaches you from the front to talk while his buddy clubs you over the head from behind with a metal pipe. Sometimes they cruise by you with a motorcycle and hit you with a weapon as they pass by. Lots of stories involve groups of 20 or 30 all armed with sticks and knifes and stuff.

Different environments present different challenges and produce different evolutionary pressures. Yeah, the prominence MMA and BJJ are definitely new developments in the history of MA. It's just different though. Neither better nor worse. The progress is neither forward nor backward.

Oh hey, you're an idiot, congratulations :D

[ShaolinDan]

Gee, and I was just thinking what an insightful post that was. :p

[wenshu]

Simple fact is, virtually no one on this board has any real need for serious martial art skills whatsoever. Sure lots of people like to thump their chests of over who's the baddest (SHO NUF!) but it's complete BS. Other than the odd LEO or active military type on the board, we mostly all just do this because we like it. As such, we are into MMA because it's fashionable. People say we "need" ground work because todays fighters will take you down and make you their biotch. Easy way to avoid that: Don't enter any MMA comps. ;) So like it or not, if not a fad, it's at least a fashion statement.


You obviously have not spent a lot of time in Downtown Los Angeles, seems everytime I walk down the street some NCAA basehead jumps out of an alley and shoots in for a double.

That's why I wear my rash guard at all times. Helps protect against discarded hypodermic needles when applying an arm bar or RNC on a strung out, mentally unstable ex collegiate wrestler.

[omarthefish]

I'm from LA but yes, I don't spend much time downtown. The traffic is nearly impossible and there's no parking anywhere. On the occasion I have had to go there for some weird reason, I've not found it to be the sort of dystopian fantasy you describe. It's at least 1000 times safer than the Tenderloin in San Francisco (where I also lived for about 10 years). One time a dude at a bus stop freaked out and started screaming at me because he asked me a question while I was listening to my walkman (I feel old) and when I reached in my jacket to turn it off he thought I was reaching for a gun. :p But I talked him down.

Anyways, any idiot knows that the high crime centers in LA are not downtown. It's worse in east LA or if you're on the west side, in Compton, at least it was when I was growing up in the 80's.

Ironic calling it a "rash guard" since if you wore it ever day in LA you'd definitely give yourself a sweat rash. :)

Waitasec...

Helps protect against discarded hypodermic needles when applying an arm bar or RNC on a strung out, mentally unstable ex collegiate wrestler.
lol. I fell for it. I thought you were making a serious post. *sigh*