Fast and powerful punch

[YouKnowWho]

I had experienced an extream fast and powerful punch once. The punch just barely touched my shirt. When my opponent pulled his punch back, it created a vacuum between his fist and my shirt. My shirt was pulled away from my body.

Have you ever experienced something similiar to this?

[EarthDragon]

when I was young my sensei, whom learned directly under Victor Vega in NYC had always said that when Sensei threw a back fist he would always work on the retraction of the strike to make it whip outward faster.

This retraction focused on the return thus, snapped at a higher tighter wave. PS this is to be done with all strikes. when you reach a certain level that is.

[TenTigers]

when I was young my sensei, whom learned directly under Victor Vega in NYC had always said that when Sensei threw a back fist he would always work on the retraction of the strike to make it whip outward faster.

This retraction focused on the return thus, snapped at a higher tighter wave. PS this is to be done with all strikes. when you reach a certain level that is.
exactly.
I tell my students,
"If the fist goes out at 100 mph, it comes back at 200 mph."
This causes more acceleration at the end of the strike, and it also creates shock power, where the opponent absorbs the full force of the blow,rather than a pushing strike, which is dissipated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only problem with this type of punch is when the practioner focuses overly on the withdrawl and loses follow-through.
Strikes do the MOST damage when they compress the target explosively.
The two KEY parts being compression and explosion.
You don't really see many boxing coaches drilling the withdrawal and that was one of the first things I noticed and when I aksed the coach simply said that the hand ALWAYS comes back because they other is going forward.
Since boxing drills combos the hand being pulled back is a "given".
I remember an old clip I say of Tyson and Cus telling him to "let the recoil" do the work...

[EarthDragon]

I disagree a little here in the fact that the follow through is a different type of result intention.ie KO
the punch I was talking about is for a cracking breaking, distraction, set up, suprise etc etc. also when you use that type of retraction force you are obviously focusing a foot at least through your target which will still give you much follow through momentum you thin you are lacking.

As well the twisting jing will rip through and your opponent will feel like he was KO'd and of course this is punch that the pwer comes from the ground/toe upward and around though the body , not like a boxer punch where the power ingenerated from the waist twist.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1143224]exactly.
I tell my students,
"If the fist goes out at 100 mph, it comes back at 200 mph."

I tell my students this exact quote.

Also, punches set up as "speed" strikes will have a different delivery system than "power" strikes. This can seem confusing because speed and power go hand in hand however when you throw a strike such as backfist or jab you hit with speed and the intent to hit several more times if needed, so the retraction of your strike becomes important not only for your guard but to deliver a follow up strike.

By the same token, power shots such as cross punch use more mass and follow through to obtain the most power and destruction possible, which I think is similiar to what Ronin is saying. Another strike similar to this but with different mechanics is Eagle Wing strike (ridgehand).

So perhaps it is best to say delivery systems are what differs, because all strikes must contain speed and power, they go hand in hand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE]

I tell my students this exact quote.

Also, punches set up as "speed" strikes will have a different delivery system than "power" strikes. This can seem confusing because speed and power go hand in hand however when you throw a strike such as backfist or jab you hit with speed and the intent to hit several more times if needed, so the retraction of your strike becomes important not only for your guard but to deliver a follow up strike.

By the same token, power shots such as cross punch use more mass and follow through to obtain the most power and destruction possible, which I think is similiar to what Ronin is saying. Another strike similar to this but with different mechanics is Eagle Wing strike (ridgehand).

So perhaps it is best to say delivery systems are what differs, because all strikes must contain speed and power, they go hand in hand.

Certain strikes quite obviously can't be pulled back - hooks and ridgehands come to mind, coincidently they are some of the most powerful shots when done right.

I've never been a big fan of the typical snapping strikes ( for lack of a better way of putting it).
I've always allowed for the natural recoil of hitting something to do that job ( and the natural sequence of the combination being thrown).

[YouKnowWho]

The only problem with this type of punch is when the practioner focuses overly on the withdrawl and loses follow-through.
Strikes do the MOST damage when they compress the target explosively.
The two KEY parts being compression and explosion.

I have always wondered the difference between the XY "Pi Quan" and the LHPM "catch grasshopper". I just found something that prove both may be the same thing.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7963/piquan1.jpg

The XY Pi Quan is also called 劈抓(Pi Zhua). Not only you need to strike your palm out, you also need to grab your hand back. Only if you can grab it back, you can call it Pi Quan because it has a circular motion. If your Pi Quan can only strike forward but not grab back, you can't use it to hit anybody.

The interest statement here is the last sentence, "If your Pi Quan can only strike forward but not grab back, you can't use it to hit anybody." I assume unless your solo punch can kill your opponent, the "continuation" is important.

[YouKnowWho]

"If the fist goes out at 100 mph, it comes back at 200 mph."

In the Zimen system, this is an extream important concept. When you pull your punch back, you are thinking about pulling a thread head out of your opponent's shirt. This training will give you the maximum speed - 乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma).

[TenTigers]

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1143244]
I've never been a big fan of the typical snapping strikes ( for lack of a better way of putting it).
I've always allowed for the natural recoil of hitting something to do that job ( and the natural sequence of the combination being thrown).
Some people snap their punches, and it only goes as deep as the surface.
It really depends on where your focus is. If it's focused deeper inside you, it penetrates as well as snap back and have a much more severe concussion. This is felt inside like an explosion.*
*No mystery-these terms came about from people describing what they felt...and of course over time..."ahhh, this is an internal strike. It explodes inside the body and disrupts the internal organs. I recall the story of Ku Yu Cheong striking a horse with just such a strike. Upon autopsy, they discovered that the horse's spine was shattered and its organs had burst. yadda-yadda..."
(I can go on...but it would either invoke wilson or hw108, and so far this has been a troll free thread...)

[Fa Xing]

I have been taught to punch and kick anywhere from 1-6 inches through my opponent, and pull back immediately. The thing that helps me do this is to "look through" my opponent and directly at him/her.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The attention given to the recoil does not create a snappier punch or kick (this should never be the goal), it allows for the development of serious striking power. Additionally, it protects the joints.

mickey

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I also do not promote any strike to simply hit the surface, all strikes should penetrate and try to "go through" the target for lack of a better term.

If you throw a cross punch from your back hand using only your arm and shoulder it will hit on the surface and most likely not cause a lot of damage. However, when you put your punch together and start from the feet, legs, hips, torso, arm and shoulder you will not only hit the surface but penetrate through, causing much more damage.

Kicks are the same way. When teaching a front thrust kick I usually give the analogy of kicking down a door. If you simply kick the surface of the door you will get nothing but if you go through the target you kick the door down.

[YouKnowWho]

kicking down a door.

Grenade, rifle, and machine gun all have it's place in battle field.

[EarthDragon]

Certain strikes quite obviously can't be pulled back - hooks and ridgehands come to mind, coincidently they are some of the most powerful shots when done right.

I completly diasgree sanjuro, which i usualy never do with you posts. a mantis hook punch is an arch elipital circle where you retract and pull it back...... this is always done with a ridge its snaps back as well confused by your statement.

PS I am 6'2 and 239 no fat with XXL sized hands and hit like a sledge hammer so I feel like I can generate more power than the norm when trying to knock someones block off, so i am a little biased, when oi speak of hitting heavy as I have been hit by flies thast thought they hit hard LOL

[YouKnowWho]

Certain strikes quite obviously can't be pulled back - hooks and ridgehands .

You don't have to pull your hook punch or ridge hand back. It can contine into straight punch (CLF guy's favor move), back fist, head lock, under hook, elbow strike, or even reverse head lock (guillotine).

[Frost]

The only problem with this type of punch is when the practioner focuses overly on the withdrawl and loses follow-through.
Strikes do the MOST damage when they compress the target explosively.
The two KEY parts being compression and explosion.
You don't really see many boxing coaches drilling the withdrawal and that was one of the first things I noticed and when I aksed the coach simply said that the hand ALWAYS comes back because they other is going forward.
Since boxing drills combos the hand being pulled back is a "given".
I remember an old clip I say of Tyson and Cus telling him to "let the recoil" do the work...

yeah but what do boxing coaches know about throwing fast powerful punches............:eek:

[wenshu]

You don't really see many boxing coaches drilling the withdrawal and that was one of the first things I noticed and when I aksed the coach simply said that the hand ALWAYS comes back because they other is going forward.

Maybe Emmanuel Pacquiao could tell us something about being off balance and exposed. . .

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/545/958/MarquezMain_display_image.jpg?1320953277

[EarthDragon]

frost
american boxing coaches train punches in cetain ways, there are many more than one way of throwing a punch.

[Frost]

frost
american boxing coaches train punches in cetain ways, there are many more than one way of throwing a punch.

how many teach you to throw a snappy punch and to concentrate on the withdrawl?

[EarthDragon]

All of them, its called a jab.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I completly diasgree sanjuro, which i usualy never do with you posts. a mantis hook punch is an arch elipital circle where you retract and pull it back...... this is always done with a ridge its snaps back as well confused by your statement.

PS I am 6'2 and 239 no fat with XXL sized hands and hit like a sledge hammer so I feel like I can generate more power than the norm when trying to knock someones block off, so i am a little biased, when oi speak of hitting heavy as I have been hit by flies thast thought they hit hard LOL

It's ok to disagree Bro :)
We are all here to learn and share with each other.
There are always exceptions to any "rule".
That you guys train "snapping back" your hook and ridgehands is fine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe Emmanuel Pacquiao could tell us something about being off balance and exposed. . .

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/545/958/MarquezMain_display_image.jpg?1320953277

Not sure what your point is...

[-N-]

You don't have to pull your hook punch or ridge hand back. It can contine into straight punch (CLF guy's favor move), back fist, head lock, under hook, elbow strike, or even reverse head lock (guillotine).

Power though on hook punch unless it's a setup or change to take control of his defending motion.

[-N-]

.You don't really see many boxing coaches drilling the withdrawal and that was one of the first things I noticed and when I aksed the coach simply said that the hand ALWAYS comes back because they other is going forward.
Since boxing drills combos the hand being pulled back is a "given".
I remember an old clip I say of Tyson and Cus telling him to "let the recoil" do the work...

This is the same in our lineage of Praying Mantis.

It is the relaxation and natural recoil combined with the attack from the other side going forward that brings the first hand(or kick, elbow, shoulder, knee...) back.

That's the whole reason for the emphasis on waist and hip relaxation and looseness.

In the case of a strike which is not used for penetrating with power, there can be additional emphasis on the snap back. This can be eye attack or groin kick.

There was a funny story about Sifu Brendan Lai demonstrating a groin kick on an attractive young woman. No contact, but her eyes opened big when she felt the wind from the pull back rushing past her.

[-N-]

One common "mistake" that people make when emphasizing the pullback is that they don't combine it with the body or core recoil. Then the movement becomes isolated to the arm only. Looks like bad mcdojo point sparring.

[wenshu]

Not sure what your point is...

That being off balance and overextended is a bad thing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That being off balance and overextended is a bad thing?

Is anyone arguing that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the same in our lineage of Praying Mantis.

It is the relaxation and natural recoil combined with the attack from the other side going forward that brings the first hand(or kick, elbow, shoulder, knee...) back.

That's the whole reason for the emphasis on waist and hip relaxation and looseness.

In the case of a strike which is not used for penetrating with power, there can be additional emphasis on the snap back. This can be eye attack or groin kick.

There was a funny story about Sifu Brendan Lai demonstrating a groin kick on an attractive young woman. No contact, but her eyes opened big when she felt the wind from the pull back rushing past her.

That was how I was taught also.

[Ray Pina]

The fast pull back makes the gi have a nice snapping sound:)

You always run into the new student who has had prior experience with karate or TKD and likes to snap his gi with punches and kicks in the air.


A car kills you because it plows through you, not withdraw upon impact. Same for a bullet and a punch.

[TenTigers]

The fast pull back makes the gi have a nice snapping sound:)

You always run into the new student who has had prior experience with karate or TKD and likes to snap his gi with punches and kicks in the air.


A car kills you because it plows through you, not withdraw upon impact. Same for a bullet and a punch.

actually, many of the injuries from auto accidents (to the driver/passengers) are due to massive internal trauma. The shock/concussion literally tears up the internal organs, which are soft tissue. Think of the consistency of raw liver and you will have an idea.

In fact, I was taught a short, tight hook punch, which works really well from the clinch. It has that same short jolt.
I think the problem most people are having is one of understanding that the snap back, still has a certain degree of penetration, and is not simply snapping the punch and striking the surface.

[wenshu]

Looks pretty snappy to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdLJAYzV9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdLJAYzV9M)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kyi57mKkVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6zlaIl0yh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyS2LjPCR0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdLJAYzV9M

[wenshu]

Is anyone arguing that?

Who's arguing?

[Lucas]

Who's arguing?

I AM YOU FUKERS!! :mad: I just dont know what about yet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GII1x7Q2MQU

[YouKnowWho]

Power though on hook punch unless it's a setup or change to take control of his defending motion.

From a

- striker point of view, a punch is just a punch.
- grapper point of view, a punch is more than just a punch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually, many of the injuries from auto accidents (to the driver/passengers) are due to massive internal trauma. The shock/concussion literally tears up the internal organs, which are soft tissue. Think of the consistency of raw liver and you will have an idea.

In fact, I was taught a short, tight hook punch, which works really well from the clinch. It has that same short jolt.
I think the problem most people are having is one of understanding that the snap back, still has a certain degree of penetration, and is not simply snapping the punch and striking the surface.

I think that most, when they think "snap", think the typical "air punch" that one often sees and such.
When we actually hit soemthing you learn, very quickly, the degree of compression that MUST have before the whole "snap back" thing takes place.

[YouKnowWho]

The past pulling back is the continuation of your next attack.

In another thread, people asked why do you not want to finish your punch. When you punch, you see that your opponent's arm is going to block it. You will have 2 choices there. Just let your arm continue and allow your opponent's arm to block your punch, or before his arm contacts yours, you pull your punch back in fast speed. When his arm miss your punch, you can punch back after his arm is passing through. The fast pulling back is for "change". In prey mantis training, you always use the pulling back as the starting point of your next strike. The faster that you can pull your fist back, the faster that you can strike your next punch. This is the theory of "machine gun" - the fast that you can eject your shell, the faster that you can reload.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I want to add this little tidbit:
Years ago the JKA did a study on the muscular output of karate punches and they found that the most powerful ( and faster) punch was the 2nd punch in a multi-stike combination.
They also noticed that force and speed decreased after the 3rd strike.
This study can be found in the book "Dynamic Karate" by Nakayama.

In the studies I was involved in, the result were almost identical.
In ANY multi-combo striking combination ( more than 2 strikes, up to 7), the fastes and most powerful was the 2nd and after the 3rd or 4th there was a NOTICEABLE loss of speed and impact force.

[TenTigers]

unless you tap into that, "crazy power." Y'know, like those people who stab their victims forty-seven times in the back.
I would be interested in knowing the depth of penetration of the other forty stabs...

Frankly, I don't know where they get the energy. I would get tired after twenty or so stabs. I'd probably have to take a break, sit down, maybe after a while get up and do several more stabs, take another break...get a coffee...

[sanjuro_ronin]

unless you tap into that, "crazy power." Y'know, like those people who stab their victims forty-seven times in the back.
I would be interested in knowing the depth of penetration of the other forty stabs...

Frankly, I don't know where they get the energy. I would get tired after twenty or so stabs. I'd probably have to take a break, sit down, maybe after a while get up and do several more stabs, take another break...get a coffee...

What is more freaky is when those victims survive !!
:confused:

[YouKnowWho]

What is more freaky is when those victims survive !!
:confused:

We all know from watching "Halloween" and "Friday the 13th" movies that unleas you cut your opponent's head off, he will always come back.

[Punch.HeadButt]

Years ago the JKA did a study on the muscular output of karate punches and they found that the most powerful ( and faster) punch was the 2nd punch in a multi-stike combination.

This is just common knowledge and I'm sure I don't even have to mention it, but as I haven't seen it brought up in this thread (I probably missed it)...the pulling back of the first punch is added to the power going out with the second punch. In terms of a basic left-right 1-2 combo, pulling the left arm (really the whole left side of the body) back explosively adds significant amounts of speed and power to the second punch. At least in my learning.

We actually train our Beng Quan from Xing Yi with this principle as well...we were taught to focus on the pulling back of the extended fist to generate power. As long as the structure of the arm going out is unified and clean, you can get decent power even if you only focus on the pulling back of the arm coming back. In fact, the pulling back of the one arm is considered the initial movement of the following punch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We all know from watching "Halloween" and "Friday the 13th" movies that unleas you cut your opponent's head off, he will always come back.

Even zombies and immortals are helpless when decapitated.

[TenTigers]

This is just common knowledge and I'm sure I don't even have to mention it, but as I haven't seen it brought up in this thread (I probably missed it)...the pulling back of the first punch is added to the power going out with the second punch. In terms of a basic left-right 1-2 combo, pulling the left arm (really the whole left side of the body) back explosively adds significant amounts of speed and power to the second punch. At least in my learning.

We actually train our Beng Quan from Xing Yi with this principle as well...we were taught to focus on the pulling back of the extended fist to generate power. As long as the structure of the arm going out is unified and clean, you can get decent power even if you only focus on the pulling back of the arm coming back. In fact, the pulling back of the one arm is considered the initial movement of the following punch.
Dude, we've already gone to silly mode.
You can't now start trying to bring in useful information to the thread at this point.
Go start another thread.


go on now....

[Punch.HeadButt]

With my timing, I'll never be a dancer. :(

[David Jamieson]

With my timing, I'll never be a dancer. :(

Try singing and if that doesn't work out, the world needs ditch diggers and hookers too! :p

[Punch.HeadButt]

Try singing and if that doesn't work out, the world needs ditch diggers and hookers too!

I choose ditch digger! I prefer manual labor sitting on my butt and acting important. :D

Hooker is ruled out, as no one could afford me.

[GeneChing]

There are a lot of 'punch' threads here....:rolleyes:

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for HOW TO PUNCH by Martin Dougherty (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-How-to-Punch-by-Martin-Dougherty.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 05/15/14 . Good luck everyone!

[GeneChing]

See our How-to-Punch-by-Martin-Dougherty-winners (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67661-How-to-Punch-by-Martin-Dougherty-winners) thread.